/wt/ watch thread

[Anonymous No.15345818]

This thread is about the appreciation of watches and their design, their history, and the engineering and materials that are required to make a functioning timepiece.


Guides:
> Poorfag guide: https://m.imgur.com/a/NFMXDuK
> Watch essentials 102: https://pastebin.com/Rc77hhXV
> Purchasing used watches: https://pastebin.com/f44aJKy2
> Purchasing straps: https://pastebin.com/SwRysprE

Should I buy this MVMT / DW / "minimalist" fashion watch?
> https://imgur.com/a/6CNO8

Should I buy this Armani / Michael Kors / mall watch?
> https://imgur.com/a/Sw1FsAn

"Suggest a watch for me."
> Your budget
> Watch type, e.g. dress, diver, pilot
> Movement, e.g. automatic, hand wound, quartz
> Desired features, e.g. water resistance, day/date, 2nd time zone
> Preferred strap option, e.g. leather, nylon, bracelet
> Wrist size or desired watch size

old: >>15342977

[Anonymous No.15345827]

You might wonder why I need a watch that can descend to 200m under water. Well yesterday my G-Shock got a light bit of rain on it and I didn't need to worry.

[Anonymous No.15345828]

>>15345799
>the bare minimum "I'm not a loser"
G-Shock

[Anonymous No.15345838]

Vintage gang

[Anonymous No.15345848]

>>15345824
>you can just get a superfake for $500
Not really, they are always very obviously shit (blurry fonts, wrong fonts, wrong kerning, wrong dial color, completely off bezels etc.)

[Anonymous No.15345849]

>>15345848
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=upAJE_XhT2Y

[Anonymous No.15345850]

>>15345838

[Anonymous No.15345851]

>>15345827
Battery almost empty? Display looks a bit weak to me.

[Anonymous No.15345852]

>>15345848
this isnt years ago. Nobody can tell without a reference side by side and on a moving wrist. You still have to look the part though.

[Anonymous No.15345856]

Is Oris good/bad?

[Anonymous No.15345859]

I'm looking for a NATO strap for this watch. Which color combination is /fa/?

[Anonymous No.15345860]

>>15345851
Just the picture, looks fine in real life, I should try to take a better picture.

[Anonymous No.15345861]

>>15345818
Is this effay?

[Anonymous No.15345864]

Which would you keep? Both are running perfectly (omega is +2sec/day).

[Anonymous No.15345865]

>>15345859
Bright orange

[Anonymous No.15345867]

>>15345865

Looks pretty nice

[Anonymous No.15345868]

>>15345864
the seiko is aesthetic af.

[Anonymous No.15345871]

Smaller watches objectively looks better and more harmonious, they had it right back in the days.
The wristlet argument is irrelevant as it proves the point that you have to have big wrist to make a, relatively, large watch look good. Having a big disk on your wrist looks bad.
There are exceptions when it comes to wrist precens, case size, bezel, colours etc.
For the average wrist size the vintage sizes are still optimal.

[Anonymous No.15345873]

This is the best lume I've seen. This is an Archimede.

[Anonymous No.15345878]

>>15345871
Big watches are fine if they have a reason for being big, e.g. divers and pilots where it aids in legibility and were historically worn over wetsuits/jackets. But 42mm "dress" watches are retarded.

[Anonymous No.15345879]

I've owned a rolex and two omegas but I still can't stop thinking about this that I used to own. Anyone else got ones that got away?

[Anonymous No.15345880]

>>15345879
I have the same sort thing for this shitter as well.

[Anonymous No.15345892]

>>15345827
Have you managed to get your battery charge up to high yet?

[Anonymous No.15345900]

>>15345849
Now reread my post? It literally has a wrong dial hue, and the fonts on the dial have shit kerning and are blurry as fuck and more bold than they should be. And the bezel is also shit.

Holy fuck. You can even see the shitty blurry print and the wrong dial color from the THUMBNAIL.
>>15345852
Sorry you're a blind idiot I guess?

[Anonymous No.15345903]

>>15345892
Yes I'm just using an old picture. It went to high after a day or two and has been there ever since. It's not particularly sunny here either.

[Anonymous No.15345906]

>>15345879
Really really miss my semenmaster.

[Anonymous No.15345908]

>>15345900
>haha i only knew all this because of the video and Im acting im all knowledgeable to impress strangers on the Internet
kys dude. And you are a sad loser whos only concerned about what others think of you. its people like you who give rolex such a bad vibe.

[Anonymous No.15345911]

>>15345878
Yes, but they were strictly tools. The big pilot watches were handed out before missions and later returned. They now come in appropriate sizes for civilian use and very few are going to autistically wear a 55mm watch.

The rolex milsub is 40mm. The cwc sbs diver issued to British special forces is 41mm case with 31mm dial. Comical Panerai sizes are outdated.

[Anonymous No.15345914]

>>15345900
I guarantee if I gave it to you irl to have a look at you'd think it was real. You only know it's fake because he literally points out what's fake with it and shows it next to a reference.

Normies would definitely think it's real, so if your only interest in watches is to try impress randoms then just drop $500-$1000 on a superfake and 99.9% of people won't know the difference.

[Anonymous No.15345917]

>>15345903
I kind of cheated and left it on a windowsill when I wasn't wearing it for a day. Gotta say that I'm highly impressed with the watch, I only bought it to wear for work but it's got to rate as the perfect beater for me.

[Anonymous No.15345919]

>>15345914
I own a fake BB58 and a fake Explorer. Fakes nowadays are incredible. My BB58 runs 0.5sec/day and has done for 10 months now.

[Anonymous No.15345922]

I have a fitbit does that count

[Anonymous No.15345926]

>>15345908
>>>haha i only knew all this because of the video
I literally said what they have before you posted the video. There is no fake on the market that doesn't have most of these issues.

[Anonymous No.15345928]

>>15345919
Post pics.

[Anonymous No.15345930]

Has anyone bought a MN/parachute strap off AliExpress and speak of the quality? Kind of want one to just try out and there's no way I'm getting an Erika's Original if a cheap imitation can achieve the same effect.

[Anonymous No.15345933]

>>15345878
There are exceptions. 46mm and it looks delicious.

[Anonymous No.15345934]

>>15345930
Yea they're really good.
>>15345928

[Anonymous No.15345938]

>>15345919
Nice. Would love to see them. Had a sub for a while and the fakes looked ridiculously good next to it.

[Anonymous No.15345939]

>>15345934
Honestly it looks plastic compared to the real one, everything's 2D and washed out.

[Anonymous No.15345940]

>>15345933
Too big honestly, 42 mm would probably still look good on this wrist but 46 mm for such a clean watch is too much.
Off the top of my head the biggest (non Navitimer) watch that a celebrity successfully pulls off is Jeremy Clarkson with his 49 mm Railmaster XXL. He's a pretty big dude though.

[Anonymous No.15345942]

>>15345934
Is the crown not screwed in or did they fuck it up?

[Anonymous No.15345944]

>>15345939
Lol

[Anonymous No.15345946]

>>15345942
Its what the gen looks like.

[Anonymous No.15345957]

Here's the explorer. Had this 2 years now and the movement is starting to crap out. It loses 11 minutes when you start it up but once you get it right it runs fine.
Most reps have a bad Rolex clone movement instead of just putting in a much more reliable ETA.

[Anonymous No.15345966]

>>15345939
It's a photograph from a cell phone...

[Anonymous No.15345968]

>>15345966
Yeah real ones look good no matter the camera.
>>15345957
This one has markers not put in correctly, and of course the shitty print. It's very obvious that the markers are all wonky and the finishing on them is terrible.

[Anonymous No.15345973]

>>15345968
> real ones look good no matter the camera
Jesus Christ man. You have truly swallowed the sperm of the mountain jews. The markers are fine, the printing is shit but you do get genuine ones this bad. The movement is dog shit but bear in mind I could buy 24 of these compared with one genuine.

[Anonymous No.15345977]

Do you wear your watch to the toilet?

[Anonymous No.15345979]

>>15345911
I was gifted a 43mm pilot two years back, and while it seems "large", the lug-to-lug width still doesnt even near the edges of my wrist and the 14something height works well with the overall proportions. If it were smaller in diameter, but same height, it would look off (as does my Geckota).
If I had to get one now, I would def. get the 40mm, seeing as those are less than 10mm thick.
Hell, Im consider going for a 36mm Stowa Marine on the reason alone that WW2 era watches were 36 or less and worked fine.
Like the other anon said, Panerai only works if you have gigawrists like Stallone or Statham (works even better if you have the body to match), the Radiomir wears entirely different, and that the Due 38mm with 30m WR is a story on its own.

[Anonymous No.15345986]

>>15345968
How's this?

[Anonymous No.15345992]

>>15345944
>>15345934
i know nothing about TOODOOR or luxury watches but if you told me that was real i would have believed it.

>>15345838
based alarm boi

[Anonymous No.15345998]

>>15345986
>>15345957

[Anonymous No.15346000]

>>15345992
Nobody on earth could tell from 3 feet away. I'm quite enjoying my fake bois. Just avoid chronos, gold and display casebacks.
I also only own those two which aren't obvious luxury watches. I would never get something ostentatious like a sub or a blingy Rolex.

[Anonymous No.15346009]

>>15345998
t. cant even tell the difference

[Anonymous No.15346012]

>>15345986
Is that genuine? The 39mm stumpy hand version?

[Anonymous No.15346013]

>>15345998
this one >>15345986
is real and taken from a WUS thread so you're full of shit

[Anonymous No.15346017]

Where's my 33mm gang at?

[Anonymous No.15346019]

>>15346013
>is real and taken from a WUS thread so you're full of shit
I knew someone was going to bait someone like that. Good job.

[Anonymous No.15346021]

>>15345922
I bought an amazfit bip, good lord these things are a waste of time. I bought it just to track my cycling sessions a little better than my cheapo exercise bike, and it can't even do that.

It's basically only useful as a very general heartbeat sensor. Although I wear mine on my ankle, so it probably isn't very good at that either.

[Anonymous No.15346023]

>>15346019
That wasn't me; its a different model ffs. I know I'm a fake cunt and rock it. Nobody has ever even noticed either of my fakes let alone asked me about them let alone called me out.

[Anonymous No.15346024]

>>15345986
>>15346013
I believe you but why not return the watch? I mean this is done incredibly badly and it's very obvious.
Either the buyer is dumb (of course he is, he bought the worst ref Explorer) or he's making stuff up.

[Anonymous No.15346026]

Post full collections pls. I need inspiration.

[Anonymous No.15346037]

Where my Vostok boys at?

[Anonymous No.15346052]

>>15346037
I have a 710 Amphibia on the way, still going through the Vostok shipping black hole after 2 months

[Anonymous No.15346057]

>>15345818
Time. Tick tock..l

[Anonymous No.15346060]

>>15345828
>Thinking someone is a loser based on the watch

What kind of shit people think that?,even if you have a pure chink shit, almost nobody will think that,they will think you have no taste, but I doubt someone sane would think about watches and sucess.

[Anonymous No.15346064]

anyone know what model this vintage vostok is? its 17 jewels and like 35mm

[Anonymous No.15346070]

>>15346064
It's a Cadet of some kind, don't know the exact model number

[Anonymous No.15346084]

>>15346064
vostok cadet/vostok junior

[Anonymous No.15346088]

Heuer Autavia: 40 years old, has both pushers still attached
Omega Speedmaster: 1 year old, pusher falls off.

Where did the mountain jew go wrong?

[Anonymous No.15346099]

>>15346088
Conglomerates realized the general public (and richfags in that general public) can be sold on ancient goblin wizardry magic that is supposed to be SWISS MADE. Even if they somehow found out that their watches are for the most part made in china, they would still gladly pay for the brand name. This is sadly not exclusive to mall shitters, starting at fashion watches, ending at Longines, Hamilton and TAG, but "serious" brands as well.
Companies paying ridiculous money for overhead, marketing and sponsorship will of course not do it out of their own benevolence.

[Anonymous No.15346106]

>>15345933
Woah patek did a bambino homage?

[Anonymous No.15346108]

>>15346088
But anon, it's BEEN TO THE MOON. How dare you criticise it?

[Anonymous No.15346110]

>>15345856
They’re alright, but I’d recommend either going downmarket for a Seiko or save up for an Omega. Oris is nothing special and you may regret it unless you really love the design.

[Anonymous No.15346121]

>>15345856
Oris is right there with the rest of the dug-from-the-grave-now-living-on-heritage-of-name brands under Swatch. Selling "their own" calibers, that really are just 2824s and 2892s with fancy rotors. Nothing groundbreaking, Oris even more so.
If you can get a deal on a used one that you really really like the looks of, get it. Otherwise you are overpaying.

[Anonymous No.15346122]

>>15346088
The speedmaster is just really a 1500$ watch,It cost more because marketing and demand, not because the shit is a rugged toolwatch.So the mountain jew went wrong when they realized they could milk the speedmaster increasing its price but not its quality.Right now you can get real tool chrono watches for 2000-2500 some of them even space approved like the fortis.

[Anonymous No.15346124]

I'm studying engineering and I need a new watch. I can use 4000 euros. My problem is that engineers with Omegas are bullied in watch communities. What brand makes good watches for under 4000 euros? Is Tudor really just a cope watch for poor people who cannot afford a Rolex?

[Anonymous No.15346127]

>>15346124
stop hanging around watch snobs.

[Anonymous No.15346128]

>>15346124
Get a Sinn or Grand Seiko then. Also no one bullies Omega owners, that’s stupid.

[Anonymous No.15346131]

>>15346124
>imagine getting bullied into spending 4k on a watch
A jumping seconds and a chronograph would be the most important things, I imagine.

[Anonymous No.15346138]

>>15346124
My father was an engineer for decades and wore a Timex or Victorinox, nobody cares.

[Anonymous No.15346140]

>>15346124
Get a Damasko. They're the pound-for-pound king in watch technology autism.

[Anonymous No.15346144]

>>15346124
I'm an engineer with a fucking G Shock. Nobody bullies anyone.

[Anonymous No.15346152]

>>15346124
>My problem is that engineers with Omegas are bullied in watch communities.
lmao what
why

[Anonymous No.15346163]

>>15346124
>metaposting this hard

[Anonymous No.15346164]

>>15346152

One guy told me that it's because engineers/"STEM fags" have no imagination and when they decide to buy a watch they go for Omega because of the moonwatch status

[Anonymous No.15346166]

Hang yourself

[Anonymous No.15346167]

>>15346164
I have never heard of this shit in my life, and a couple of my closest friends are engineers. Who cares what engineers think, they're all autistic anyway, why even bother trying to please them?

[Anonymous No.15346169]

>>15346124
Maybe it's different with mechanical engineers, but all electrical engineers I know only use quartz watches. They don't seem to care so much about the brand as watch snobs do.

[Anonymous No.15346170]

>>15346164
He sounds like a cunt.
Get a 57 railmaster

[Anonymous No.15346173]

>>15346124
I find it hard to believe the same guys who wear second-hand plaid tucked into their jeans and tape their classes together at the bridge are actually bullying you for wearing any given watch.

[Anonymous No.15346182]

>>15346124
Bulova accutron spaceview.

[Anonymous No.15346187]

>>15346060
I'm>>15345828
Apparently the guy I'm replying too think so.

[Anonymous No.15346194]

>>15346169
electrical engineers confirmed for soulless drones

[Anonymous No.15346200]

>>15345838

[Anonymous No.15346201]

>>15345930
It's fine I have a couple.

[Anonymous No.15346202]

>>15346167
My best mate is a civil engineer and him and every other guy he works with at Jacobs wear Omega, except his boss who wears a Timex lol

[Anonymous No.15346203]

>>15346017
Based.

[Anonymous No.15346205]

>>15346037
I have a couple and I'm waiting for this to arrive.

[Anonymous No.15346215]

>>15345977
Yes, if its a rolex I use it to wipe my ass

[Anonymous No.15346220]

>>15346037
Stuck in the Dutch customs hellhole for over 2 weeks now REEEE

[Anonymous No.15346222]

>>15346164
>it's because engineers/"STEM fags" have no imagination
Your guy has some kind of an inferiority thing about engineers, to be generalising like this.

Can you imagine feelings of inferiority towards engineers, of all things. That's like envying an EE's indentation style, or a blind person's painting.

[Anonymous No.15346229]

Sup /wt/ pls rec me a thin and supple rubber/silicone strap. Bought a few but they're way too thick.

[Anonymous No.15346232]

>>15346220
I ordered another one a few days ago, let's see how long it takes. Some people who ordered at the start of March are still waiting.

[Anonymous No.15346240]

>>15346222
Nah theres something to that. My cousin engineers shit for drones and had never considered the ethics of making robot killing machines until I asked him about it.
myopic autismo stem lords do what they are told to do and never ask why. it's v odd
>>15346229
For what watch?
I have an uncle seiko one on my 62mas, thinnest rubber I've had but reasonably stiff still

[Anonymous No.15346243]

>>15346240
An alba diver with 20mm lugs.

[Anonymous No.15346244]

>>15346232
Mine was pretty quick to exit Russia, I think it spent less than 2 weeks there

[Anonymous No.15346250]

>>15346243
Yeah go for an uncle seiko I reckon. Worth the money. Sorry bout the shit picture, not much light in the part of the room I'm in.

[Anonymous No.15346252]

>>15346205
What is the model number, and where can I get my very own?

[Anonymous No.15346255]

>>15345973
>the printing is shit but you do get genuine ones this bad.
Alright show one.

[Anonymous No.15346260]

>>15346252
It's a Neptune model from Meranom. Out of stock but they pop up occasionally: https://meranom.com/en/amphibian-se/

[Anonymous No.15346273]

>>15345986
What about it? It's obviously real? That's a factory/QA error.

[Anonymous No.15346274]

5 identical pateks

[Anonymous No.15346275]

>>15346255
Here's one
>>15346273
You're only saying that because you saw a post higher saying it's real.

[Anonymous No.15346280]

>>15345934
>>15346201
What search term on AliExpress do you use? Just "parachute strap" or is there a better term?

[Anonymous No.15346287]

>>15346280
paratrooper strap, parachute strap, french troops strap

[Anonymous No.15346291]

>>15346250
Thanks for the rec anon

[Anonymous No.15346311]

>>15345838
this is now a vintage thread

[Anonymous No.15346319]

>>15346124
>>15346182
The only right answer for a true engineering NEET

[Anonymous No.15346327]

I'm trying to find a nice, silver Bulova Super Eville Daydate to buy and ive found one with this crown... surely this isn't a Bulova crown? It says "P"?!

[Anonymous No.15346342]

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/313031056856

Thoughts on this? Just been serviced.

[Anonymous No.15346353]

>>15346342
>no papers
>no movement pic
>likely no service receipts
>only 99.7% feedback

run

[Anonymous No.15346361]

>>15346342
>>15346353
Its just one bad review on a victorian sofa

[Anonymous No.15346363]

>>15346229

barton elite silicon straps

[Anonymous No.15346366]

I tried on a Panerai 8 giorno GMT the other day. It was surprisingly light.

[Anonymous No.15346367]

>>15346353
Have you ever tried to buy a 60s Rolex? They don't exist with papers and if they do it'll be an extra grand at least.

[Anonymous No.15346376]

>>15346240
Regular people also do as they're told and never ask why. It's practically a requirement for e.g. menial labour. Don't need some mystical "sperg" attribute to blame it on, or generalise from.

Killer drones though, the argument about that is the same as for having this newfangled thing called the "police" instead of putting down unrest with the military. ACAB, certainly; but the military is just going to massacre the unarmed civilians, so the reason there's no bitching is because dead protestors don't tell no tales. This in turn sees the cops used more because being "less lethal" they don't have the bloodshed disadvantage that practically restricted use of force previously. Which corresponds to drones vs. pilots in bombers (helicopters, these days), lessened risk of bodily harm, more explosions and Afghan weddings where everyone died. Ultimately this boils down to "take the money, or let some militarist wanker have the money".

[Anonymous No.15346390]

>>15345818
is posting that big ass watch on a wristlet bait?

>>15345838
I like that.

>>15345849
I was eager at one point to buy a fake rolex. I am not passionately against it, but I don't think it's good. I don't give a fuck about Rolex. It's because it does something to your soul. It's a cheap way out. It's will give the opposite feeling of actually wearing a Rolex. It's one thing to just wear a suit. It's another thing to wear a suit because the man wearing it is important.

>>15345856
Respected but not admired.

>>15345861
No

>>15345864
I like the Seiko More, but the Omega is a more special piece IMO.

>>15345879
Sure. I just bought Ward. really love it. however, the cunts sent me a watch with dust inside the case. cunts.

>>15346124
Buying a watch as a student and being concerned about the opinions of your peer is weak wristed.


>>15346170
that's fucking awesome.

[Anonymous No.15346397]

Where am I supposed to get a strap for this shitter the watch pins are fucking 15mm

[Anonymous No.15346406]

>>15346202
*TICK**TICK* LIKE A BOSS

[Anonymous No.15346414]

>>15346397
Get a 20mm strap and trim the end so it fits in the lugs

[Anonymous No.15346416]

>>15346390
My old Chris Ward stopped one day and I sent it off for a repair. It was a loose screw that came out of rhe movement that was stopping the rotor from moving. Luckily they have a 5 year warranty.

[Anonymous No.15346419]

>>15346397
there are 15mm straps on AE. even bracelets too.

[Anonymous No.15346439]

I am officially declaring this thread as a Seiko Autonomous Zone (SAZ).

Safety zone for the whole Seiko gang.

[Anonymous No.15346454]

Any recommendations for watches while hiking?

[Anonymous No.15346458]

What's the /fa/scists' opinion on San Martin?
Pic related looks like a neat little Sub homage.

[Anonymous No.15346462]

>>15346439
That thing is so sexy. The colors are just perfect.

[Anonymous No.15346465]

>>15346419
AE?

[Anonymous No.15346471]

>>15346458
Apparently they make decent watches. Their prices are on the higher end of the Chinese shitter range but they look well finished. There is a thread about them on watchuseek and everyone seems happy with theirs, no complaints that I saw.
This annoying Australian has reviewed a few of them and seems to like them. They somehow come better regulated than the seikos with the same movement so from the factory.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=wXn_GHg7IVQ

[Anonymous No.15346475]

>>15346465
Anime Experts

[Anonymous No.15346481]

>>15346439
THIS IS A CASIO GANG THREAD
GTFO FAGGOT

[Anonymous No.15346491]

>>15346414
Ok will try that

[Anonymous No.15346498]

>>15346458
You should also look at steel dive, they are a bit cheaper. Their factory store is on Alibaba and not AliExpress.

[Anonymous No.15346499]

>>15346471
Thanks for the info! Might place an order soon.

[Anonymous No.15346500]

>>15346465
Aeon Flux

[Anonymous No.15346503]

>>15346280
>>15346287
To add, marine nationale strap. cheapestnato sells some but they are shit and you get jewed on the money conversion and shipping fees. Some anon recommended straposphere, they have less variants, but seem to be better made, thicker.

[Anonymous No.15346519]

>>15346465
aliexpress, anon.
just search 15mm watch strap and sort by order

[Anonymous No.15346547]

>>15346439
Reporting

[Anonymous No.15346560]

>>15345859
this is the only one in the whole thread that I actually like

[Anonymous No.15346566]

>>15346419
A 15mm strap won't work on the watch. It's too thin. It will look funny and won't be comfy. He needs to buy one that matches the outside of the lug and use a knife to cut the strap to make it fit.

[Anonymous No.15346580]

>>15346547
The bezel on those bitches is so fucking good.

[Anonymous No.15346594]

>>15346566
shit you are right hmm...my bad

>>15346465
ok you need to get a wider strap and trim it.

[Anonymous No.15346620]

>>15346547
I love the theme Mr. Blue Sky !

>>15346475
/g/ is rather useless

>>15346500
thx senpai

>>15346519
Ah, fuck that place

>>15346594
mkay

[Anonymous No.15346628]

>>15346439

[Anonymous No.15346633]

>>15346620
>/g/ is rather useless
This effay

[Anonymous No.15346643]

>>15346628

What does the inner ring with the 1:10, 1:20, 1:30.. represent?

[Anonymous No.15346658]

>>15346643
rtfm

[Anonymous No.15346659]

>>15346124
>engineering
Well, obviously some over engineered German thing.
But I guess you’re just the
>not having a Rolex = failing at life
Troll, fishing for yous with a new bait.

[Anonymous No.15346681]

>>15346252
It's a Neptune SE 960726.

[Anonymous No.15346683]

>>15346643
minutes
1:20 = 1hr 20min = 80min, which is printed above it.

[Anonymous No.15346689]

>>15346439

[Anonymous No.15346694]

>>15345873
>>15345873
Quark I was thinking about getting out of those since stowa prices have gone up and these guys do the cases and hands in house. Would be nice to have the top grade movement though. How's the crown? It looks wonky in some pictures I've seen

[Anonymous No.15346698]

>>15346683

thank you

[Anonymous No.15346764]

>>15346689
Shame they stopped the classic shield logo Seikos, thez were great basic shitters that came in all forms and styles. Snagged the old SNK in the Flieger-B-Style to give to my kid someday as first watch. Already at $120 when I bought it.
RIP in piece seiko5finder.

[Anonymous No.15346785]

is there anythin like this below 300bucks?

[Anonymous No.15346818]

I've been watching a lot of movies that take place in the 70s lately. It seems like everyone is wearing watches with expandable metal bands like this. It's making me really want one. Post more examples?

[Anonymous No.15346829]

>>15346818
besides pulling your hair when you first put em on they’re pretty comfy

[Anonymous No.15346831]

>>15346818
That's some grandpa shit right there

[Anonymous No.15346911]

>>15346818
Those bracelets are Lama core, only worn by saints.

[Anonymous No.15346936]

>>15346829
Told you in the last thread, sonny, post cat, or granny gonna fill you with seconds, thirds, AND dessert.

[Anonymous No.15346938]

>>15346818

[Anonymous No.15346977]

>>15346454
Marathon GSAR if you want something sufficiently durable that you can wear outside of the field without looking silly. One of those Casio Protreks or their Suunto equivalents if you want some useful functionality like a built-in compass and barometer.

I usually just toss a watch-strap mounted compass on my GSAR when I go hiking and call it a day, but knowing the temp, altitude, and weather trends could be nice.

[Anonymous No.15346997]

And now we wait…
Also, it's pretty bad UX to just end your shopping experience with such a blanc statement. And I got a email with the receipt by meranom, and some stuff in 100% russian by ofd.ru, which never showed up in the order process at all. Oh well.

[Anonymous No.15347015]

>>15346911
What watch is that?

[Anonymous No.15347026]

>>15346936

accept donation & leave him alone

[Anonymous No.15347048]

>>15346911
imagine getting gifted a patek at age 7

and he would break it several times bashing around with it as a young child

[Anonymous No.15347053]

>>15346936

[Anonymous No.15347055]

>>15347015
Probably a Patek Philippe, looks similar to his PP pocketwatch.He owns a lot of nice watches including rolexes, and apparently he hears them on the botton of the wrist with cheap elastic bracelets because he doesn't want people to look at the watches and think about money, he wears them because he likes watches and are gifts.

[Anonymous No.15347075]

Are you all enjoying the early summer, anons?

[Anonymous No.15347076]

is Etsy a reliable place to buy watches?

their vintage watches all look... too new

[Anonymous No.15347101]

>>15346439
Gang gang

[Anonymous No.15347107]

>>15347076
like this, its sold as a vintage from the 80s and it looks like it was made yesterday and dial printed. Zero aging or wear. This cant be real right...?

but all these shops have perfect 5 star rating. from hundreds of people

am i going crazy? or are the customers just all normie staceys buying "quirky russian watches" for their bfs?

[Anonymous No.15347110]

anyone knows a cool polerouter knock-off?

I have been looking for something around 300 euros. I saw the Rado world travel but I cant find one in a decent state.

[Anonymous No.15347122]

>>15347107
"vintage 1950s stopwatch"

[Anonymous No.15347149]

>>15347076
>>15347107
i am wondering the same. i have a few of those bookmarked, but never when thru with a purchase because something seems off.

[Anonymous No.15347216]

>>15347075
A TGV fan?

[Anonymous No.15347218]

>>15345838
sweet

[Anonymous No.15347219]

>>15347055
Interesting. I didnt know he was interested in watches

[Anonymous No.15347222]

>6000$ for a fucking Seiko

https://youtu.be/pzlqSTdFyv4

Suuuure, I'll buy it

[Anonymous No.15347226]

>>15347222
>watching some dumbass r*ddit tier YouTube video
Cringe

[Anonymous No.15347241]

>>15347222
>its a "Teddy is trying to scam us again" review

[Anonymous No.15347266]

>>15347149
so i was the anon who was asking about a mayak a few threads back (1950s soviet watch). It lacked the "Made in CCCP" marker present in other references which threw me off. Also the watch looked way too new for its age somehow, the caseback was near mint too. In any case I had asked seller to reserve it for me for the time being.

an ukrainian anon here said it was likely a frankenwatch made out of disassembled pieces and he wouldnt pay more than $30 for it

but i was still intrigued, so I went to WUS to ask the russian forum, and some guy dug up a old catalogue showing it was possible for it to happen. (not having the country of manufacture marker). Another person chimed in to say that the hands have been relumed as the lume discolouration didnt match the pips. This the seller did not disclose, in previous correspondence with the seller he assured me "everything is original".

TL:DR it was all too shady for the vibes so I pulled out of buying, its not a lot of money but it would bug me to no end not knowing how "honest" the watch really is

[Anonymous No.15347269]

>>15346818

[Anonymous No.15347289]

>>15347110
ive not come across any that looks like it that i can recall. I'll post here if I see one

[Anonymous No.15347297]

>>15347266
if you needed someone to tell you that wasn't original lume you shouldn't be buying vintage watches on ebay.

[Anonymous No.15347308]

>>15347297
not ebay, etsy.
ya im a vintage noob and was looking to get my virgin vintage watch. thats why i asked around. Now i know

And i quickly realised vintage is really a landmine field and such a deep rabbithole

[Anonymous No.15347340]

>>15347308
there's a pastebin in the op that also has some advice

[Anonymous No.15347363]

>>15347340
shit i didnt even know it was there LOL
>actually reading the OP hurr

thanks will look at it soon

[Anonymous No.15347382]

Poljot shitter on a nato strap.
r8

[Anonymous No.15347393]

>>15346397
Model number?

[Anonymous No.15347394]

Where do I buy great fakes for 1k? Rolex or whatever.

[Anonymous No.15347423]

>>15346818

[Anonymous No.15347470]

>>15347382
not really feeling it.
it's not horrible, though.

[Anonymous No.15347533]

what does this tool do?

[Anonymous No.15347558]

>>15347533
Removes hands from a watch dial. Or clock face, depending on scale.

[Anonymous No.15347568]

>>15347558
oh. was looking at watch tools and wasn't labelled.

what do you use when you need to put hands back on?

[Anonymous No.15347575]

>>15347568
A tiny press. So, so tiny. As though made for large ants, the kind that lift weights and post watchmaker's hand-setting press videos on AntTube once a week.

[Anonymous No.15347598]

>>15347575
kek, ok

>>15346764
>old SNK in the Flieger-B-Style
>$120
are they really going to discontinue that particular design
im in asia and these can still be found for $85 but ive noticed the price slowly creep up
maybe I should hoard a few of them

[Anonymous No.15347599]

>>15347394
r/reptime

[Anonymous No.15347600]

>>15346088
Is it not under warranty?

[Anonymous No.15347603]

>>15346124
I just graduated with my EE degree and got a speedmaster. Dont let faggots bully you.

[Anonymous No.15347618]

>>15347600
It should be, I think omega offers 5 years warranty and something like that does not seems to be an usual problem caused by daily wear,but maybe he bought it on the grey market.

[Anonymous No.15347628]

>Orient has a titanium daydate homeage

i cant decide if this is butt ugly or effay

[Anonymous No.15347634]

>>15346580
I spin the bezel at least once a day just for the fuck of it. It feels great.
>>15346620
Thanks boss. I reminded of something I read about a farmer looking up at the sky, sighing, and then plowing the four corners of the earth. Or something. It might have been James Joyce.
>>15346363
>barton
He's right, it feels good as hell on my Samurai.

[Anonymous No.15347636]

>>15347107
you got too look at the price anon, yes there are alot of fakes ones
this guy especially has lots of fake but some good stuff too anyway remember that how higher the price the more original and rarer it will be especially on etsy

[Anonymous No.15347639]

>>15347628
Model number?

[Anonymous No.15347643]

>>15347075
Is this a Yema?
>>15347101
Classy as hell.

[Anonymous No.15347649]

>>15347628
Orient President is way better looking desu

[Anonymous No.15347657]

Yema Superman or Baltic Aquascape?

[Anonymous No.15347670]

>>15347657
Navygraf

[Anonymous No.15347682]

>>15347657

Yema. It’s the future.

[Anonymous No.15347725]

>>15347682
>>15347670
These. I have also heard that yema is the future

[Anonymous No.15347728]

>>15347657
I'd go for Yema

[Anonymous No.15347747]

>>15346140
Why not just get a Sinn?
>>15346439
Why not just get a Tudor?
>>15346458
I'd say why not just get a Sub, but holy shit that looks nice.

[Anonymous No.15347765]

>>15347747
Tudor wearers don't shoot vietcong drink tiger blood.

[Anonymous No.15347793]

What's this watch? Looks like it has a TAG Heuer logo, can't figure out which one though.

[Anonymous No.15347804]

>>15347793
Nevermind, found it.

[Anonymous No.15347868]

>>15347793
Wut movie?

[Anonymous No.15347947]

>>15347657

yema

[Anonymous No.15347963]

>>15347947
this specific version of the superman heritage is the only one worth buying. the high polish they have on the case in the regular model ruins it.

[Anonymous No.15348022]

>>15346376
I do menial labor, or did before covid (tradie) I wouldn't really call engineering drone parts all that menial. It's highly specialist actually imo
A lot of ppl get the police and the military mixed up (especially American Maoists in my experience) at this point in time I'd call the U.S military to be less reactionary and much much less likely to massacre civilians than cops. A lot of marines for example come from lumpen/working class backgrounds.
I for one hope theres less explosions at Afghan weddings. I remember watching some kid on youtube talking about how when it was overcast in Afghanistan/Pakistan it meant it was going to a 'good day' because no one was gonna get fucking blown up. Then I think of my cousin and well... different strokes different folks
>>15346439
farrrrk, if it was just a tiny tiny touch smaller would cop
>>15347101
hello fellow vintage seiko comrade

[Anonymous No.15348031]

I've been looking for a clock to keep on my desk, but all the options i see kinda suck or are way too expensive. Was thinking about getting a pocket watch and keeping it on a stand.

Where should I look for old cool pocket watches?

Picrel is the coolest desk clock i found so far, but its also >60k

[Anonymous No.15348054]

>>15348031

get a cartier desk clock

[Anonymous No.15348055]

>>15348031
> 60 k

Why though, what is special about it?

[Anonymous No.15348069]

>>15348054
Ill take a look at them. Most of the ones I saw were quartz and I kinda wanted a mechanical one

>>15348055
I not sure DESU, its just the price its listed that. Keep in mind thats a mechanical perpetual calendar.

[Anonymous No.15348081]

>>15347868
Should Have Left. New horror with Kevin Bacon, it's really shitty but I noticed the watch, looks pretty decent.

[Anonymous No.15348086]

>>15348069
I always liked the Citizen ones, they also make nice gifts

[Anonymous No.15348110]

>>15346017
>Where's my 33mm gang at?
There aren't that many women in these threads

[Anonymous No.15348162]

>>15345818
unironically this:

[Anonymous No.15348167]

>>15348162
or maybe this

[Anonymous No.15348172]

>>15348162
If only the new ones weren't shit

[Anonymous No.15348224]

>>15348031
Those Seiko world times with the little airplane are cool

[Anonymous No.15348227]

>>15348031
Basic Jaeger Lecoultre Atmos can be found for 2-3k if you want something fancy.

[Anonymous No.15348268]

>>15346818
Anyone here like combo bands? This one is a scissor/ beads

[Anonymous No.15348290]

>>15348031
JLC atmos

[Anonymous No.15348413]

>>15347747
Damasko case hardening is much better than Sinn's. Damasko used to build the cases for Sinn since they didn't know how to do it themselves.

[Anonymous No.15348414]

>>15348162
>unironically this:
The seconds hand doesn't align with the indices. I'm not just talking about your pic either. I owned one myself with the metal bracelet and from 30 to 60 seconds the seconds hand was way off. I sold it. I have chinese shitters that align perfectly, you'd expect braun to be able to do it but no.

[Anonymous No.15348418]

>>15348031

[Anonymous No.15348461]

WHAT A PIECE OF SHIT

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t0gkzLHONXk

[Anonymous No.15348467]

>>15345864
Twin peen, no question about it.

[Anonymous No.15348535]

34mm - 36mm is the perfect size for a real man
i wish the polerouter prices didn't skyrocket

[Anonymous No.15348539]

Why don't you all just buy replicas?

[Anonymous No.15348542]

>>15348539
if I didn't actually care about the history and construction of the watches I own I would just buy a $10 modern quartz watch.

[Anonymous No.15348543]

>>15348535
>34mm - 36mm is the perfect size for a real man
Hahahhaha imagine being such a wristlet. You aren't a real man if you aren't wearing something over 50mm

[Anonymous No.15348547]

>>15348543
if you need more than 36mm you need to lose weight fatty

[Anonymous No.15348549]

>>15348031
> >60k
>that alignment (or rather: lack of) of the date
How can they get away with that?

[Anonymous No.15348550]

>>15348461
Cause of the dig on Seiko?
Also note that the Omega briefly shown is possibly a fake lol

[Anonymous No.15348555]

>>15348547
I was talking to my normie friend and he says small watches are too effeminate and looks like womens watches thats why he looks likes big watches

[Anonymous No.15348579]

>>15348547
Maybe you shouldn't be such a manlet with an effeminate body

[Anonymous No.15348591]

>>15348549
It's old, it was probably fine out of the factory and now needs some 20k service by the single 80 gear old swiss guy that knows how to work on it.

[Anonymous No.15348596]

>>15348555
This is something we have been conditioned to think in the last few decades and comes from hiphop "culture", gaudy nigger behaviour. But it's also a general casualisation and brutalization of culture and society beginning in the 50s-60s, after the war and Jews and communists could reign freely to destroy western society.
The new movie heroes now became the brutes, bad boys, eternal rebels and womanizers.

[Anonymous No.15348604]

>>15348543
say that to my face white boy

[Anonymous No.15348619]

my favorite thing so far are these JLC travel alarm clocks. can see the alarm being useful sometimes

>>15348224
didnt know about this, pretty cool option

>>15348227
>>15348290
the atmos is really cool but i wanted something smaller

>>15348418
this is pretty based

>>15348549
i mean its from 1931, but yeah

[Anonymous No.15348633]

>>15348539
They're illegal in my country, can't import them.

[Anonymous No.15348655]

>>15348539
not into luxury watches or the styling

[Anonymous No.15348658]

>>15346454
Smartwatches are unironically great for this shit. I have a Galaxy Watch and never use it for everyday shit but it's really nice for /out/ stuff as long as you're not gone longer than the battery lasts. GPS tracking your hikes is pretty cool and it lets you put your phone in your pack and still control music or whatever, and you don't have to worry about beating up an expensive mechanical watch. I'd probably get a Garmin if I were doing it again but I had a Samsung phone at the time so it made sense to get the matching watch.

[Anonymous No.15348672]

>>15348413
Im just straight ripping this out from another forum:

>Tegimented Sinn cases are in the ~1200 Vickers range (though I've read 1500 in some places). That puts it in the ~72 HRC range. As mentioned, that's a surface layer, on the order of 20-30 microns thick; underneath it'll be softer.
>Ice-hardened Damasko cases are in the ~800 Vickers range (~64 HRC). Hardened completely through, not a surface layer.
>Both companies use a PVD coating in the 2000+ Vickers range for their black cases.

Damasko might...scratch...more easily than Sinn, but a heavy blow will...dent...the Sinn more easily, if that makes sense.
Beware that no matter how scratchproof, there WILL be some things/material in life that you may encountar that will be harder. Somebody scratched theirs on some ultrahardened tabletop.

[Anonymous No.15348682]

>>15348539
Why don’t you just pretend to be something you’re not? Why not just lie all the time? Instead of having sex with a woman, fuck a fleshlight? Dont talk to people online, just message an AI bot. Bullshit all the time, no exceptions. Only do things for appearances and nothing else. Be as shallow as possible.

Why don’t you just do that? :^)

[Anonymous No.15348685]

>>15348672
To add:

>Sinn‘s tegimented U-boat steel is 1500 HV.
>Damasko‘s surface hardened submarine steel is 1500 HV
>316L is about 220 HV, variations possible from 160 to 230

The 556 is made from regular SS, only the 856 is hardened and comparable to the DC56. The 556 doesnt actually have any meme tech, whereas a pricewise comparable DS30 does.

So to recap, from softest to hardest:
>316L stainless steel>damasko ice hardened>sinn tegimented>submarine steel is basically the same on both>PVD coating is basically the same on both

[Anonymous No.15348696]

>>15348539
bad feng shui
wearing good watch is like wearing a piece of art, it brings fortune

[Anonymous No.15348697]

>>15348633
What country?

[Anonymous No.15348699]

>>15346454
Pro trek, suunto, g-shocks, garmin

[Anonymous No.15348706]

>>15345827
>>15345861
>>15345892
Hot take: Digital watches will always be gay

[Anonymous No.15348708]

>>15348672
That also means the Sinn is tougher and the Demasko more brittle, which could lead to the case break or shatter instead of denting.

[Anonymous No.15348716]

>>15348708
Perhaps, it would have to be quite a hit though, I think youd be more concerned about your forearm and wrist bones at that point.

[Anonymous No.15348718]

>>15348672
whats wrong with just having a normal SS case and polishing scratches out once in a while

[Anonymous No.15348723]

>>15348718
The watchmaking world is known for and based upon answering questions noone asked for. Hot memes that sell. Almost all complications can be solved more easily and for cheaper with quartz. But muh soul and tradition and swiss/teutonic/samurai magic.

[Anonymous No.15348726]

>>15348716
Then the same can be said for the argument that a Sinn will dent more easily.

[Anonymous No.15348729]

>>15348726
I never defended either in the first place, I just laid it out how I saw it from a discussion elsewhere.

[Anonymous No.15348733]

>>15348672
Once you breach the thin tegimented layer on a Sinn it's much softer underneath and will scratch easier after that. The basic Damasko model with no PVD will basically look new forever. Pic related is a 10 year old one from a WUS post.

[Anonymous No.15348744]

>>15347393
mtp-1304

[Anonymous No.15348745]

>>15347289
cool, thanks

[Anonymous No.15348749]

>>15348733
Too bad it looks like shit in the first place.

[Anonymous No.15348758]

>muh hardness
why not get a full sapphire case with a tourbillon for only $2000

this is like a RM but actually fairly priced

[Anonymous No.15348764]

>>15348758
because sapphire shatters easily

[Anonymous No.15348766]

>>15348733
You'd have aggressively sand it down to go past the hardened surface and unless you have numbers on the hardness of the softer parts it's kind of pointless making arguments based on guess work.

[Anonymous No.15348783]

just ordered a full set of watch tools
shits gonna be fun

[Anonymous No.15348785]

can anyone recommend a cheap but good demagnetizer from ali?

[Anonymous No.15348792]

>>15348783
They are unbelievably cheap, I have a similar set and it's quite handy.

[Anonymous No.15348818]

>>15348792
ya the whole thing with shipping is just under $30

bought some loupes too

[Anonymous No.15348819]

>>15348783
I have an identical set but it's just the stuff in the case plus the hammer. It's alright, good enough for resizing and swapping bracelets, changing batteries on quartz, etc., but I wouldn't try to work on movements with it unless you really don't care about the watch in question. The spring bar tool is kinda sketchy too, I bought a much nicer Bergeon one that cost as much as the whole kit but I feel like it was worth it.

[Anonymous No.15348822]

>>15348783
I absolutely guarantee you that half of that will be unusable. The screwdrivers won't be centred properly, the tweezers won't meet to a point, and anything metal that is put under any pressure will bend and snap. But you will have fun and you'll learn which tools are worth spending money on.

[Anonymous No.15348826]

>>15348822
My version of the same set has been surprisingly decent. Like I say, not good enough that I'd use it for serious watch repair or anything, but the screwdrivers are centered enough that I feel comfortable using them on relatively expensive bracelets and so on, and I've gotten a few years out of it without breaking anything.

[Anonymous No.15348829]

>>15348822
Lmao of course the watch snobs are tool snobs as well

[Anonymous No.15348831]

>>15348822
dayum, i hope its at least kinda usable
>>15348819

ya i dont expect it to be professional grade or anything, just for opening up cheap shitters. might get further tools to swap out hands and shit down the line

[Anonymous No.15348834]

>>15348829
It's a good idea to invest more than $2 per tool when you're messing around with mech watches valued in the hundreds

[Anonymous No.15348839]

>>15348829
Just speaking from experience, everything in this photo apart from the watch and needle files has since broken and been thrown away. I went through 3 spring bar tools before I gave up and bought a Bergeon.

[Anonymous No.15348841]

black pill me on shinola

[Anonymous No.15348846]

>>15348841
It rhymes with shitola

[Anonymous No.15348850]

>>15347600
>>15347618
Got it grey market. Oh well

[Anonymous No.15348854]

>>15348841
*assembled* in Detroit
Thats about it, china made like the rest of them. Design and quality is about the same level as Ingersoll or Timex. Might look appealing in pictures, but shit is bound to go south real quick.

[Anonymous No.15348855]

>>15348841
https://youtu.be/aupnlLpQBWw

[Anonymous No.15348857]

>>15348854
Forgot to add: obviously asking a grand for 45mm shitter with a SW200-1 is just ridiculous.

[Anonymous No.15348889]

>>15348822
I have a similiar set. The screwdrivers are centered. The tweezers come to a fine point and the pry tools have not bent or snapped.
>>15348839
The old expression "a bad carpenter blames his tools" comes to mind.

I'm not saying quality tools aren't necessary but this dismissive attitude is excessive.

[Anonymous No.15348957]

>>15348841
my 75 year old dad likes them

[Anonymous No.15348961]

has anyone taken the Jocko Pill?
I might wanna larp as a tactical operator
timex ironmans anyone?

[Anonymous No.15348969]

>>15348783
How much and where from?
Because if it’s from AliExpress (or amazon, they’re 90% the same nowadays) >>15348822 is likely correct.
If you’re going to replace a few things with good stuff (just use your /csg/ approved xiaomi wiha screwdriver ) and mend a few others, it’s good enough to try opening a few shitters but I wouldn’t go near a good watch with it.
T. AliExpress customer.

[Anonymous No.15348973]

>>15348697
About all of them? How much your government and customs office will care probably depends, but I’m pretty sure fakes are illegal about everywhere.

[Anonymous No.15348981]

>>15348022
In my parlance tradie jobs, blue-collar professions, are skilled work. Certainly not menial. I mean things like shelf-stocking and being a slave at an Amazon warehouse; that's where you'd find regular people doing exactly what they're told, and it ain't what kind of things (say) sparkies gotta know so as to not have a fuse-related code brown.

[Anonymous No.15348989]

>>15348764
It's not that sapphire itself shatters easily, but it's so hard to scratch that if it does put a significant hit it may shatter. I've had a sapphire crystal on my daily watch for years and it is holding up fine.

[Anonymous No.15348994]

>>15348961
If you want to truly larp as an operator then you need a g-shock

[Anonymous No.15349022]

>>15348961
If you get a new ironman the only good one is the "original 30" all the others have shit build quality. They aren't on the timex website any more but there might be some on eBay.

[Anonymous No.15349037]

>>15349022
It's also sold as the "endure 30"

[Anonymous No.15349071]

I need to find one of these hideous bell and ross fakes, but in "bronze", and quartz.

https://www.aliexpress.com/item/4001068431066.html

Anyone seen one?

[Anonymous No.15349093]

>>15348785
At least the chinese ones from Amazon are all the same, just from different sellers. Mine works fine, but apparently the QC is what you'd expect.

[Anonymous No.15349098]

>>15349071
>age girl
they couldn't have picked a better name?

[Anonymous No.15349101]

>>15349098
The cheaper models that people actually want are blank, but then if you look at the reviews they all have the real logo on them.

[Anonymous No.15349111]

>>15349110
>>15349110
>>15349110
>>15349110

[Anonymous No.15349521]

>>15348841
they look very stylish, which pisses off a general on a fashion board that drools over unattractive engineercore seikos so take that how you will

[Anonymous No.15349836]

>>15346124
The guy whose last name is on the wall of the fancy expensive law firm I work at wears a Seiko 5. Nobody fucking cares, nobody will bully you for a FUCKING OMEGA of all things.

[Anonymous No.15350088]

>>15347266
ukrainian anon reporting in.
here's how all original watches of that age really look like
https://www.olx.ua/obyavlenie/chasy-naruchnye-zim-mayak-pobeda-IDFLNAI.html?sd=1#545b08837d

[Anonymous No.15350870]

>>15346122
Yea it's called a g shock and I had a Fortis Cosmonaut, its felt like a oris in hand, what a pile of shit.

>>15346088
Are you not the anon that ripped his speedmaster pusher out while doing the washing? (Caught it while stuff the washing machine??)

Anyway that's what you get for not getting the pro theres a reason it's got shoulders.