25+

[Anonymous No.13536109]

Is there a guide on how to dress for the older man? I'm not really into the menswear wankery and I'm too old for streetwear.

[Anonymous No.13536111]

Will be watching this thread

I (23) am worried that all the youth fashion I am buying will look silly on me in 5-7 years

[Anonymous No.13536226]

>>13536111
It already looks silly on you, you just haven't realized it.
Keep wearing your joggers though, you definitely totally don't look retarded. Trust me

[Anonymous No.13536242]

Well fitting, high quality, nothing too gaudy, clothes that meet the occasion.

If you have a problem understanding any of these concepts imitate someone who does until you get it down.

[Anonymous No.13536248]

fuck I just turned 25, will I look like a boomer now?

I feel just the same as I did at 20

[Anonymous No.13536263]

I work at a digital agency, I wear t shirt, dickies, and adidas sambas. Is that okay?

[Anonymous No.13536805]

>that feel when turning 25 this winter

[Anonymous No.13536822]

most people that are near 25 just kinda look like 18 year olds.

stop pretending that after 25 your old

[Anonymous No.13537061]

>>13536822
I'm 25, almost 26, and i always get mistaken for a 16 to 19 year old.

[Anonymous No.13537074]

Can you post examples of what you deem "menswear wankey" or "streetwear"?

There are styles between than MFA-tier and Supreme-draped hypebeast.

[Anonymous No.13537099]

Ur never 2 old for streetwear!
t. that balding fat guy that should've quit streetwear 10 years ago

[Anonymous No.13537188]

>>13536109
https://youtu.be/CJzj8W-UymA

[Anonymous No.13537204]

Start with:

> Redwing Iron Rangers or Clark's desert boots with crepe souls
> Nice fitting jeans (Levi 513's are a good starting spot as they are a good balance of slim but not skinny for most adult male leg types; if you have very skinny legs maybe try a slimmer fit)
> Nice fitting blank t-shirts (I recommend Buck Mason curved hem, picture related). If you are a bigger guy remember that a fitted chest/shoulder/arm area with a looser midsection will look far, far better then trying to find a slim-fit that 'works'.

That pretty much covers all bases in all everyday situations, covers most modern work situations when you add a nice fitting gingham button up or something (many places are fine with t-shirts now though too); change pants and shirt as needed for other situations in a logical way. Add a sport coat of some kind for dinners/situations were you want to dress up a bit but not wear a suit (suits are an entirely different thing and I am sure this question is geared more towards everyday/more all around clothing).

The crazy part is you will somehow look more fashionable then both the people that are trying hard to look fashionable as well as the people that have seemingly given up on nice fitting clothing. If you wear this type of outfit with confidence and comfort you will ooze timelessness and whatever the opposite of try-hard is as well as not making yourself look older/younger/whatever.

*crack*
*sip*

Yep

[Anonymous No.13537300]

>>13537061
>tfw 18 get mistaken for 23

[Anonymous No.13537325]

>>13537204
Thank you

[Anonymous No.13537613]

Man I'm 22 and I look 17. I got them Pharrell genes so I can dress however I want and not look out of place.

[Anonymous No.13537628]

>>13537613
No you fucking idiot, you can only dress like a 17 year old might dress and not look out of place. Jesus Christ how can you not understand that what the fucking hell man.

[Anonymous No.13537692]

>>13537613
>Pharrell genes
>5 year difference
Hope you’re still sayin that in 10 years

[Anonymous No.13538074]

Dont die

[Anonymous No.13538109]

>29
Loafers, boots, and derbies are going to be your best friend in a few years for your casual wear. I wear a lot of oxfords for work, some denim based ones during the colder months, linen during the summer.
Traded a lot of my chinos for suit separates, and I get things tailored a lot more.

One thing I miss is fucking hoodies. I work in a lab environment and AC is blasting all the time lightweight jackets like bombers and herringtons don't stop shit even with a labcoat on top of it.
>>13537204
guy is pretty on point, except i don't really wear jeans anymore.

Usually shop:
>Norse Projects
>APC
>Scotch & Soda
For casual wear
>Marshalls and Nordstrom Rack in the rich part of the state
>misc designer
For more business dress and datewear.


>>13536822
I'm almost 30 and this African guy in a gas station kept asking me if I was sure I was 18 when I bought a lighter a couple months ago.

Year ago Xfinity guy ID'd me before he came in my house because as he put it 'an adult has to be present'.

[Anonymous No.13538127]

>>13536111
>>13536805
>>13536248

why cant we dress as we want without being judged :c

[Anonymous No.13538132]

>>13536248
im 25 too anon, in my previous job everyone thought that i was 18 lol
why waste time worrying?

[Anonymous No.13538135]

>>13536822
why stop pretending, if that makes me feel good

[Anonymous No.13538141]

>>13537692
I’m black and black don’t crack nigga

[Anonymous No.13538154]

>>13538141
How badly were you expecting to age in 5 years? You’re only 22 I don’t know why you’re acting like you accomplished anything

[Anonymous No.13538182]

>>13536109
Is 25 years old considered old?

[Anonymous No.13538217]

>>13537204
>Clark's desert boots with crepe souls
Uh yeah
Now that it's 2011 again have you heard about this new thing called bitcoin? Bitcoin more like buttcoin amirite lmao

[Anonymous No.13538225]

>>13538182
Being over 21 is in all seriousness pretty old.

[Anonymous No.13538232]

>>13538225
the problem is that I really dont feel that old

[Anonymous No.13538233]

>>13536109
tshirts and button up shirts
jeans and chinos
derbies

enjoy

[Anonymous No.13538241]

>>13538232
You'll know you're old the first time you learn about a new type of social media significantly after the fact.

[Anonymous No.13538249]

>>13538141
1st of all, Pharrell is mixed and 2nd black people age their darker skin just hides the wrinkles

[Anonymous No.13538254]

>>13538249
Black skin resists UV which is a major cause of skin aging.

[Anonymous No.13538265]

>>13537204
This guy looks like a discount Keanu Reeves

[Anonymous No.13538626]

>>13537204
lmao this guy is parroting shit from 2011

[Anonymous No.13538631]

>>13537613
>being young as fuck and boasting about looking slightly younger as fuck

dare you to say that again when you're 30

[Anonymous No.13538704]

>>13538217
>>13538626

I'm an actual 30 year old boomer (well, 31) so I don't even know what I would be parroting.

Jeans, boots and a tshirt or oxford are 2011 exclusive? If true then yes don't listen to me because I honestly have no clue.

This is an real question not sarcasm.

[Anonymous No.13538723]

>>13538704
No, everything you said was on point. Some of the specific brands and items you mentioned (RW Iron Rangers, Clarks Desert Boots, Levi's anything) were way hyped on /fa/ around that time and so now they're seen as passe by people who spend way too much time on here and have trouble distinguishing between memes and the real world. To everyone else they remain utterly normal garments.

[Anonymous No.13538731]

>>13537628
>tfw 30 year old who looks 20 and look out of place when dressing my age
It's bittersweet. Mostly inconvenient at this point, though.

[Anonymous No.13538967]

>>13538704
what you said was literally a /fa/ 2012 era infograph uniform

I'd dig up the exact image if I couldn't be bothered

[Anonymous No.13538970]

>>13537204
>>13538704
circa 2012 believe it

[Anonymous No.13539001]

>>13536822
>tfw 19
>tfw I’ve been told I look like a 30 year old when I grow out my beard

Life is good

[Anonymous No.13539021]

gee whiz doc I wonder what TAKE IVY is for

[Anonymous No.13539056]

>>13538723
>>13538967
>>13538970


Haha shit, now I get it. i was even going to mention low top chuck taylors (but all black version). I am a become 30 year old boomer meme, destroyer of sips.

[Anonymous No.13539061]

>>13538723 #
>>13538967 #
>>13538970 #


Hah, well it makes sense then. I was even going to mention low top chuck taylors (but all black version). I am become 30 year old boomer meme, destroyer of sips.

[Anonymous No.13539064]

>>13538232
dont listen to that guy. a lot of the people that browse here are still in high school

[Anonymous No.13539070]

I'm 34 and I wear only black and white basics that fit me well, paired with a hint of edginess. Some Rick, Julius, occasionally some Hugo Boss. What's more important to me personally is to stay active/fit and look healthy underneath those fabrics.

[Anonymous No.13539093]

>>13538723
>>13538967
>>13538970


Haha shit, now I get it. I was even going to mention low top chuck taylors (but all black version). I am become 30 year old boomer, destroyer of sips.

[Anonymous No.13539167]

All that "adult" shit is played. I work at a place that's supposed to be professional, and everyone in their curses, talks shit and blast music all
day and no one, not even the supervisors care. All these people dress how they want unless it's the person who just comes in wearing scrubs all day. I'm 28 and all the othet guys in are 30 or older and dress in streetwear.

All this "dress like an adult shit" passed with baby boomers. Now yoj can walk up into a job with Jordans on and no one gives a shit as long as you work.

It you're a millennial why the fuck are you following old ass baby boomers standards anyway? They're fucking lame hypocrites who liberlized everything and then turned around went comservative.

If your job doesn't have a problem dressing how the fuck you want, then who gives a fuck about the rest of the world? All you are is a wage slave at the end of the day anyway.

Might as well have some fucking fun.

[Anonymous No.13539175]

>>13539167

Is this copy pasta?

[Anonymous No.13539176]

>>13539001
I just cut my beard. I feel like this beard to cover your weak ass chin trend is about to die, and beard care fucking sucks. I cut it and I look at least 5 years younger. You don't need a beard, cut it and work out. Even if you don't have the best jaw line, it'll at least look better once you start losing weight and toning up.

Look at every recent president or most ceos etc. Do they wear beards. Why do you think they call the women who fuck closeted gay men "beards".

[Anonymous No.13539186]

>>13539167
does this mean i can wear off white at 28

[Anonymous No.13539188]

>>13536109
This is the only acceptable casual thing for the thirty year old boomer to wear until age 40. Just make sure to update the look, so not as tight and don't onions cuff your jeans.

[Anonymous No.13539202]

>>13539186
Off white is uninspired hypebeast trash consumed by Asian streetwear kids. Fuck Virgil Abloh.

[Anonymous No.13539283]

>>13539202
This
I can't stand that gaudy shit

[Anonymous No.13540550]

>>13537204
>Buck Mason
nice things...but too large for me

[Anonymous No.13540556]

Niggers, spics, and asians can wear streetwear forever doe. If you're white stop once you hit 22(imagine you actually graduated college)

[Anonymous No.13540566]

New Balance shoes, golf shirts, polo shirts, lumberjack flannel/plaid, levi/wrangler jeans

You dress for comfort, and unless you have money, you should not give a fuck about what you wear unless you work in fashion its self. Not giving a fuck about fashion is part of growing up.

[Anonymous No.13540593]

>>13538225
Actually retarded

[Anonymous No.13540643]

Go full sleaze once things start getting grey and saggy.

[Anonymous No.13540649]

>>13537204
>>13540550
Yeah, Buck Mason mediums are like normal extra large size but their small is normal small sized, dunno what their autism is. Also their curved hem has like 10 inches difference between the highest and lowest point of the hem.

[Anonymous No.13540662]

>>13539188
w2c shades?

[Anonymous No.13540681]

>can't wear clothes with logos on them anymore
>women used to compliment my two shirts all the time
>one has a bunch of stars
>the other one is rainbow-colored shit

inb4 those sound stupid as fuck, they were literally the only ones wear they would say my shirt was cute. Wearing no type of icon is just so boring, everyone looks the same

[Anonymous No.13540688]

>>13540681
>wearing a literal ad on your body
Maybe if you weren't a sad uninteresting fuck people would compliment you more often.

[Anonymous No.13540695]

>>13540688
I don't have superman shirts and official logos, I have random shit like an astronaut's reflection against the sun

[Anonymous No.13540708]

>>13539021
prep and ivy is the most cringiest shit ever dude

who wants to be that sheltered entitled white kid threatening people that his dad is a lawyer

[Anonymous No.13540718]

>>13540708
Who wants to be a low class chav that works on the sewer.

[Anonymous No.13540736]

>>13536805
>that self aware 25 yo boomer

[Anonymous No.13540796]

>>13540718
>false dichotomy
great you're also a brainlet

[Anonymous No.13540824]

>>13538109
>One thing I miss is fucking hoodies

I'm 26 and I still wear hoodies. Should I stop?

[Anonymous No.13540828]

>>13536822
t. low masculinity twinkcel

[Anonymous No.13540847]

>>13540643
This, I've been running the classic sweatpants/blazer combo lately.

[Anonymous No.13540882]

>>13540824

The Ted Kaczynski look is in. I like to wear a hoodie with the sleeves cut off, daisy dukes and cowboy boots + open carry my .45

[Anonymous No.13540888]

>>13540882
Alright fine, I'll give up my hoodies. Any suggestions for outerwear to replace them with?

[Anonymous No.13540922]

>>13539021
This, it's prep or die

[Anonymous No.13540958]

23 now and a lot of the clothes I bought in college have become immature and useless. Had to redo my wardrobe
I.e. no more skinny jeans, now have slim fit levis and slim fit chinos. Replaced obnoxious t-shirts and metal band shirts with pocket tees and plain ringer tees and such. usually try to wear more tasteful band shirts under flannels. have a lot of short sleeve button ups, the ones that are meant to get tucked in get tucked in now and the the ones with the square tailoring don't. wear doc marten oxfords and tasteful brown sneakers instead of trendy sneakers which are now reserved for the gym.
also, wear a WATCH! instantly makes you look more mature and classy. even a timex will do. No more snapback caps, just traditional baseball hats and tasteful 5-panels that aren't flat-billed. Basically, just be tasteful and mature!
As my hair has receded to a mature hairline and thinned a bit it stays short, no more obnoxious Hitler youth style cuts.

[Anonymous No.13540968]

A Carhartt Odessa, the official crown of the 30 year old boomer.

*crack*
*sip*
Ahhhh you shoulda seen the one that got away, 12 pounder I'd say boys!

[Anonymous No.13540974]

>>13540824
Depends on the hoodie man. Like everything else some are for teenagers and others are for adults.

[Anonymous No.13540975]

>>13540958
i read between the lines that youre a balding fatso and have totally given up on yourself

[Anonymous No.13540993]

>>13540958
why useless? you arent that old

[Anonymous No.13541035]

Just get lots of nice sweaters and sweatshirts of different materials, cuts ,et. Pair with curdoroys, slim fit pants in a few colors, and knee length shorts. Boots and reserved trainers. Buy a few watches and a few colognes.

You'll get there guys.

[Anonymous No.13541054]

>>13540975
>>13540993
Actually very fit but no I cant grow thick bangs or anything anymore and its necessary to adapt to the times. And I don't think a 23 year old college graduate looking to be professional should be wearing trendy streetwear or edgy fashion regardless.

[Anonymous No.13541066]

>>13540974
What category would zippered Under Armour hoodies fall under?

[Anonymous No.13542593]

Don't die on me adult threads thread

[Anonymous No.13542632]

[Anonymous No.13542641]

based 25 year old boomers

[Anonymous No.13542669]

I'm 32.

In the winter I wear hoodies, fitting t-shirts, slim jeans and "combat" boots. If it's cold enough, layer with a fleece vest or a bomber jacket. Occasionally swap out the hoodie for a jean shirt or a plaid one.
When I'm feeling extra fancy, I wear a business casual shirt in blue and grey, but the rest of the outfit stays the same.

In the summer, I wear loose shirts, polyester shorts, or if I'm really dressing up, cotton shorts and maybe a polo shirt (but rarely ever wear my pique ones as they seem too formal).
Shoes are running shoes (boosts, nike frees and a pair of alphabounces as of now).


I feel like I look dope.

[Anonymous No.13542974]

>>13542669
Pic of winter outfit?

[Anonymous No.13543526]

[Anonymous No.13543531]

>>13541066
Good for the gym I guess?

[Anonymous No.13543538]

>>13543526
his socks are completely out of place and it annoys the shit out of me

[Anonymous No.13543762]

>tfw every second that ticks by you're just getting older, more outdated, out of touch, uglier, balder, cornier, and less effay
Just end it all by 23 lads

[Anonymous No.13543896]

>>13536109
Chinos, non chunky leather boots, blank shirts, no logos or designs, use blue, black, brown, black and other simple masculine colors, nothing too bright, no red shoes, no yellows easy on green.

Go for a more traditional style, go for a manly style and never wear anything too tacky, I know a lot of guys that are 40+ and still wear streetwear and actually look good, a healthy, slim attractive guy that actually works out and keeps himself slim will look good regardless of what he wears, just don't wear anything too retarded.

[Anonymous No.13544113]

So old people today (the ones who haven't completely given up and started counting down the days until death) basically just wear what they wore when they were younger. Does that mean in 60 years we're going to be wearing the same shit and all the normie boomer women will be displaying their ever-diminishing saggy-ass ass in vintage lululemon and crop tops?

[Anonymous No.13544240]

>>13537204
nice bait

[Anonymous No.13544317]

>>13539176
I keep mine very short tho mostly because I shave off my head and I don't want to look like a thumb

[Anonymous No.13544390]

>>13536822
I'm a 28 year old white man and I'm always mistaken for a ten year old Asian girl

[Anonymous No.13545753]

>>13536109
I alternate between wearing black or gray v-necks with 170 dollar jeans and these really loud paisley long sleeve button downs with the same jeans. I either wear these leather slip on walking shoes or lucchese cowboy boots.

[Anonymous No.13546056]

I've got some dark brown clark desert boots I like. I always wondered about getting penny loafers. Not sure what kind to get, what color, or if they're even worth getting @ 30.

[Anonymous No.13546213]

I’m 28 and this is what I generally wear.
Fall/summer/spring
>plain T-shirts/Henleys/crew neck long sleeves
>slim fit jeans
>bomber/moto jacket
Usually in black/gray/white
Winter
>turtlenecks
>button up shirts with or without a sweater over
>chinos/slacks or jeans
>trench coats/pea coat/parka
Foot wear
Lace up boots/Chelsea boots/monkstrap boots
I don’t wear sneakers a lot but I do own chuck taylors and vans

I avoid
>really bright colors
>floral prints are good but be careful not to go too crazy
>get creative but don’t get on every trend
>invest in quality clothes
I hope this helps.

[Anonymous No.13546470]

>>13538141
you sure about that?

[Anonymous No.13546483]

>>13536109
I'm in my early 40's and still dress casually like a 20 or 30something. Dressing at your age is a fucking meme. Times change ad you must adapt to the current fashion and not the old fart fashion unless you dig hipster shit.

[Anonymous No.13546524]

Is it possible for a younger person to pull off dadcore? I’m 19 but I like the fancy jumper and collared shirt look

[Anonymous No.13546905]

Dress like a perpetual unemployed musician

[Anonymous No.13547095]

>>13546483

>Dressing at your age is a fucking meme.

Saying this doesn't make it true.

That doesn't mean you have to do it but you will be considered weird, the same as when you are young and dress dofferently then the norm. Nothing wrong with that though if it's what you like.

[Anonymous No.13547100]

>>13544240

It was bait. I'm not effay; I now am aware everything I said is like 10 years to late or something and was pretty much copy pasta. Oh well, it works for me.

[Anonymous No.13547106]

>>13544240 #

It wasn't bait. I'm not effay; I now am aware everything I said is like 10 years to late or something and was pretty much copy pasta. Oh well, it works for me.

[Anonymous No.13547111]

>>13538127
Because we live in a society

[Anonymous No.13547118]

>>13536109
>>13536111

25 here

Just make sure you’re in the right shape

You should workout, even if you’re skinny.

I generally don’t wear obvious branding and make sure the basics fit the desired way and have decent quality.

Fuck the red wing and loafers meme btw

[Anonymous No.13547121]

>>13543526
>how to look gay

[Anonymous No.13547136]

>>13541066
You guys are really clueless lol

[Anonymous No.13547141]

>>13543526
Haha

[Anonymous No.13547177]

>>13547136
shhhhhhhh

[Anonymous No.13547212]

>>13536109
bruh as you age, /fit/ becomes much more important than /fa/. you won't be able to look good in any core if you explode into dadbod at 30. also, wear sunblock and get into a good face moisturizing routine, preferably one that includes a prescription strength retinoid. make sure you're getting enough sleep.

otherwise, techware, milsup, lunarcore, and workwear are good choices.

[Anonymous No.13547291]

>>13538970
apart from the peacoat and maybe the black/hite chucks everything is still up to date

[Anonymous No.13547314]

>>13547121
>>13547141
>jealous fatties

[Anonymous No.13547386]

>>13547136
No shit Sherlock, so how about you help a clueless boomer out?

[Anonymous No.13547392]

>>13547314
Haha nahh. Look at those bags in his trousers, ruin the whole fit.

Not a fatty at all lol.

[Anonymous No.13547396]

>>13547386
How about you’re fucking 25+

[Anonymous No.13547401]

>pick any 80's comedy/family movie
>copy their style
thats my recipe.

[Anonymous No.13547402]

>>13547396
>everyone is a boomer
Now help him out, boomer

[Anonymous No.13547962]

>>13547402
He’s 25, it’s that simple.

If you already find it that hard to dress yourself, you have other (more important) issues to fix.

[Anonymous No.13548554]

>>13538127
just dress and not care if you are being judged then.

[Anonymous No.13548582]

Golf

[Anonymous No.13548751]

>>13539167
Unironically true

[Anonymous No.13548835]

Hey why don't you read the sticky, find your style and come back with specific questions?

[Anonymous No.13548950]

>>13536248
I'm 26 & get mistaken by women for being 30. As soon as I tell them I'm 26 it's all "oh my god I thought you were OLDER then me"

[Anonymous No.13548964]

>>13543526
>That Asian 30 year old boomer obsessed with menswear

[Anonymous No.13549592]

>>13537061
>tfw 30 year old boomer and get mistaken for 40 something silent generation

[Anonymous No.13549677]

>>13540824
if raf is still wearing hoodies so can you :)

[Anonymous No.13549684]

>tfw 22 and wear start-up streewear brands like getsomesleep and killthehype.

[Anonymous No.13549688]

>>13540958
you sound like a complete fucking faggot

[Anonymous No.13549769]

>>13536109
>you're ~25
>you finally have a career decent enough to fund all the hype shit you've always wanted
>except now you're a boomer and you'd look retarded in all of it
living is suffering

[Anonymous No.13550243]

>>13543526
>>13539188

you zoomers fuckin' crack me up. please leave boomer advice to the actual boomers

i need another monster energy

[Anonymous No.13550250]

Why don't you just wear what you want? Fashion is great for giving off impressions but it's also a cool form of self-expression. Most people are going to tell you to stick to basics - which is great advice - but you can always whip out the accent pieces when you're off the job and no one will look down upon you.

If my 60-year-old japanese boomer dad can get away with wearing bass pro tees and a shirt that says "don't make me open this can of whoopass" and still be a normal member of society, you can still wear your streetwear shit as long as you want as long as you can clean it up for work/special occasions

[Anonymous No.13550264]

>>13542632
How to dress like a robot

[Anonymous No.13550288]

>>13549769
>average male
>already boomer at 25
>me
>finally stop looking underaged at 28
Pic related except I am white/hispanic

[Anonymous No.13550293]

>>13550288
Forgot a pic

[Anonymous No.13550344]

>>13543762
>and less effay
Wrong, when you are old people a world of outfits open to you.

[Anonymous No.13551056]

>>13538970
DO NOT FOLLOW THIS GUIDE fuck man this sucks, don't dress yourself according to some guide on the fuckin internet all the clothes on the right are literally cuck tier. Just pay attention to how stuff fits and colours and textures and find out for yourself

[Anonymous No.13551587]

>>13538967
>>13538970

Do you have the /fa/ image explaining the cycle of fashion?

It's pretty old

It was a circle and it used either a fedora or beard or some shit as an example

It showed how it went from fashionable, to out of fashion, to cringey, to obscure, to hipster-y, then back in fashion

[Anonymous No.13551629]

>>13539167
some people work proper jobs

[Anonymous No.13552069]

A nice watch goes a long way

[Anonymous No.13552100]

How to dress if you're in the fucking tropics? I'd love to wear long sleeves and jackets but the average weather here is 30°

[Anonymous No.13552542]

>>13542632
>how to avoid beeing anything

[Anonymous No.13552553]

>>13536248

damn, that's real sleaze

[Anonymous No.13553555]

>>13538254
Black people die more from skin cancer because they think UV doesn't hurt them

[Anonymous No.13553693]

>>13536109
26 here, it is not that you are too old for streetwear,
you are just too poor for it

[Anonymous No.13553711]

>>13538241
>You'll know you're old the first time you learn about a new type of social media
JUST
But t b h at 24 I feel myself MUCH better than before

[Anonymous No.13553999]

>>13546483
>I'm in my early 40's
>still on 4chan
We're here forever, right?

[Anonymous No.13554432]

>>13553693
useless post

go brag about spending $800 on a supreme tshirt like an idiot elsewhere