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2023-11: Warosu is now out of extended maintenance.

/fa/ - Fashion


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File: 92 KB, 424x600, 1287592772308.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
8863502 No.8863502 [Reply] [Original]

Share your products and daily routines. How do my brothers and sisters of /fa/ keep their looking and feeling it's best?

Complete n00b here, just started using conditioner for the first time of my life (only used shampoo before because I tough as a guy I needed just that), it's cantu shea butter, decided I would give it a try since lot of anons recommended it in previous threads.
How often should I use this conditioner? I heard about cowash, in which case it is beneficial?
Can I get my hair wet when taking a shower with it?

>> No.8863504
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>> No.8863506
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>> No.8863512
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>> No.8863516
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>> No.8863519
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>> No.8863520
File: 170 KB, 768x1024, Christina Santini 1.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
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>> No.8863524
File: 339 KB, 480x480, Christina Santini.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
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>> No.8863529

>tfw develop a yellow bone fetish last 2 years because of my art teacher
>tfw no qt half black gf

>> No.8863534
File: 63 KB, 600x480, spiked-hairstyle[1].jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
8863534

So after applying to Cantu to my hair last night I went for the spikes haircut, how can I detangle it without breaking much hair?

>> No.8863539 [DELETED] 
File: 2.89 MB, 320x240, 1406348079021.gif [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
8863539

sliding these nig threads, post in the normal hair thread u monkeys

>> No.8863540
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>> No.8863561
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>> No.8863566
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>> No.8863572
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>> No.8863578
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>> No.8863584
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>> No.8863606
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>> No.8863796
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>> No.8863806
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8863806

http://www.kanyetothe.com/forum/index.php?topic=870457.0

refer to this, it helps.

Personalty after fucking around for 2 years
I use:
>deep conditioner ever week or so
>natural shampoo ever 3 weeks or when hair is dirty
>moisturise and leave in conditioner once a day

Makes my hair soft as shit and i think its growing better too

>> No.8863809

U do realise u look like apes

>> No.8863817

>>8863806
With what do you moisturize? Water?

>> No.8863819

>>8863613
>>8863613

pls respond

>> No.8863827
File: 36 KB, 600x600, 10574236-1323868025-493346.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
8863827

>>8863817
I use this but as i understand anything with shea butter is good.

Without a doubt moisturising has made the most difference to my hair, looks and feels so much better

>> No.8863832

>>8863613
>>8863819

Needs more definition.
Try the sponge method.

>> No.8863840
File: 101 KB, 640x640, 10251359_607563499320194_257322981_n.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
8863840

>>8863832
like this?
mines half way between this and that but in the shape of a hi-top and with tapered sides.

>> No.8863859

>>8863534
pls respiond

>> No.8863887

>>8863534
water and your fingers

>> No.8863913

>>8863502

as a blackanon why not just use the general haircare thread, this sort of thread just propagates the special snowflake phenomenon.

>> No.8863923

OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOH!
I like sugar and I like tea but I don't like niggers - no sir-e!

>> No.8863930

>>8863913
Because I wanted to get actual replies, from people that have the same hair as me.
Try posting in a general haircare thread to see how much replies you get when you have black hair.

>> No.8864030

>>8863796
she shouldnt pass as a nigga

>> No.8864036 [DELETED] 
File: 417 KB, 1600x1375, 1411016012783.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
8864036

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_zPv9EpdaxQ

>> No.8864040

>>8864030
>Doesn't say this rather for >>8863519 but for >>8863796
Nigga you serious?
Only see such full lips on a nigga.

>> No.8864042
File: 273 KB, 500x403, tumblr_m9lrdyYoyI1ru4jsh.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
8864042

>>8864036

>> No.8864080

Cut: Drop Bald Fade - Every 2 weeks.

Wash: Every 3-4 days with hair cholesterol for easy management.

Brush: Like you would for waves. 360.

Durag: Every night. Gotta lay that hair down.

>> No.8864094
File: 62 KB, 640x426, Photo on 24-09-2014 at 16.44.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
8864094

>>8864080
I have safety braids in right now. They're about 5.5" I don't have any idea what to do. I think I'm going to get it dreaded. wat u guys thinking?

>> No.8864097 [DELETED] 
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8864097

>>8864094
i recommend a noose

>> No.8864117

>>8864097
T-thanks, y-you too

>> No.8864120

>>8864094

Get dreaded up.

I cut mine after 7 years - brother just shaved the sides of his a few months ago.

Find someone who can sisterlock / lockstitch or you'll end up looking like Lil Wayne. No need for gels or hand rolling.

>> No.8864121

>>8864097
Christ pigfuck, why do you even come here

>>8864094
Looks sick how it is but keep growing them out on top and keeping the sides short.Saw a black dude the other day with long as dreads on top and short sides and it looked amazing. Dude had some EXCELLENT dreadlocks though, looked like thin rope

>> No.8864122

>>8864097
please go

>> No.8864126

>>8864094
like it how it is tbh

>> No.8864130 [DELETED] 
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8864130

ATTENTION

There already exists a hair general, you silly idiots! No need to make your own thread!

It's okay though, just migrate there for future reference :)

Thanks friends :)

>> No.8864135

>>8864117
>>8864121
>>8864122
Report and hide these posts without replying to them, giving them attention is what keeps them going.

>> No.8864164
File: 75 KB, 640x426, Photo on 04-09-2014 at 15.51 #2.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
8864164

>>8864120
Yeah, I don't like thick freeform lil Wayne and the weeknd has. Can you post a picture of a lockstitch dread style? I couldn't find any. >>8864121
Cutting the sides sounds something I would do but If I don't like it I can't go back that's the thing. I'm not sure my head is narrow enough. Thanks m8s
>>8864126
I gelled it back, because it would look like pic related.

Going to delete the picture because I don't want to whore myself out on this thread

>> No.8864169

>>8864130
m8 black hair is completely different from other races I think it warrants a general in itself
>>8864135
kek, no it's not. People with niggerish hair is what keeps them going

>> No.8864203 [DELETED] 
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8864203

its bad enough i have to tolerate a fucking HAIR thread on a fashion forum, u think a thread specifically for NIGGERS is acceptable?

no

>> No.8864204 [DELETED] 

>>8864169
Just specify that you have black hair and you'll get responses tailored to that by other black people.

People with fine hair need different products and what not, do we need a fine hair thread? Or curly hair? Or dyed hair? All hair types require different methods. Your hair is still hair so it belongs in hair GENERAL

Or go to a black hair forum where you will get 10000 more responses

>> No.8864205
File: 59 KB, 1280x720, 2014-09-27_03-03-41-PM.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
8864205

pls help

>> No.8864214
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8864214

how about u just stop being black lmao

>> No.8864215

>>8864204
k

>> No.8864223

>>8864205
>indian pretending to be black
lmao I like u

>> No.8864240

>>8864223

im actually east african though, black hair care nor white hair care seems to be working for me, I'm stuck in a rut and my hair get really dry even though I drink 2 litres water daily.

>> No.8864244

>>8864240
o i c
What has water got anything to do with it?
>tfw no Ethiopian gf

>> No.8864256

>>8864244

good thing our women are loyal to us hehe.

>> No.8864262
File: 413 KB, 471x602, tumblr_mas1ly8FEQ1rezizro1_500.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
8864262

>>8864203
guess who's back. He contributed this time though. I don't think His hairstyle is for me, his hair looks soft as fuck

>> No.8864270

>>8864262

all the black guys in my area are bald how come.

>> No.8864275

>>8864270
>black people are hivemind
kek'd

>> No.8864277

>>8864270
Because nappy hair is hard to look after. Just cut it off and leave all the hair shit to the women. That's what they are thinking

>> No.8864284

>>8864277

why not just let it grow out naturally and see where it gets you.

>> No.8864296

>>8864284
Well in my case, if I just grow out my hair and go about my business, the sides would go short and there would be a mountain of long hair in the middle of my head. This is from my sleeping pattern and my head would look like an ear of corn, which isn't /fa/ at all. Also breakage, dry hair, coarse hair etc. It's not that simple for me but maybe it is for others

>> No.8864298

>>8864205

Permed? Somali? Black women would kill for your hair. Your text is too straight for black haircare. Find a "white" stylist or ponytail it

>> No.8864306

>>8864284

With an edgeup we can maintain for a while but most black guys look homeless after 2 months.

This is literally we wear durags.

>> No.8864322

>>8864296

use satin pillowsheet

>> No.8864326

>>8864298

nah im natural somali male, have to hide my hair from my dad though since he thinks it's not halal.

>> No.8864333
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8864333

>>8864306

would this be high maintenance then?

>> No.8864373

>>8864333
I'm the guy with the safety braids. My hair was just like this because I didn't wear a durag. I felt like I was ODB

>> No.8864383

>>8864373

you can shape long black hair into all sorts of cool shit like antler horns.

>> No.8864391

>>8864333

This pic is the beginner stage for dreads. Just depends on how neat you want it.

To maintain:

Weekly: 1-2 washes. Daily moisturizer.

Bi-Weekly: Edge up and back taper. $8-12 (+ Black Ice is used in pic to darken edge line)

Every 3-6 months: Dreadlock session. (~$60-70) (cleans new growth ie baby afro under the twists).

>> No.8864418

>>8864391
>>8864333
How do yo moisturize when you have hairs locked like that?

>> No.8864435

>>8864383
true, When I took them out the first time I styled my afro as devil horns.
>tfw straightening black hair
I looked like kat williams lol

>> No.8864465
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8864465

>> No.8864470

>>8864205
Selam Habesha so I would recommend moisturizing and then putting your hair in three or four braids that you unravel in the morning followed by a light spritzing/oiling before brushing with a boar hair brush.

You have hair like my two grandmothers and thats what they did basically

>> No.8864474

Honestly I just have my hair in center parted flat twists then a head wrap on top

Basically going to be do this for awhile because I am lazy until I can afford basically a wodaabe braid/crochet braid/Habesha hair style I came up with :-P

Just one more month!

>> No.8864487
File: 34 KB, 261x665, Palmer’s+Olive+Oil+Formula+Conditioning+Spray+Oil.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
8864487

>>8864418
Spritz your hair, just don't use coconut oil, cause it will keep it from locking up.

>> No.8864505
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8864505

>>8863502
I hope everyone in this thread has a satin pillowcase or wrap

>> No.8864514

>>8864505
I-I have a durag

>> No.8864550

>>8864470

will do thanks.

>> No.8864569
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8864569

>>8864474
Oh yeah here is a picture

>> No.8864570

>>8864487
Oh I don't want to get my hair locked yet.

>> No.8864576

>>8864505
Oh yeah

Dudes cotton is the devil get some silk or satin

>> No.8864659

>>8864505
Just copped one. Is it really that much better?

>> No.8864665

>>8864659
>Being trolled this easily

>> No.8864871

>>8864487
How often should you Spritz?

>> No.8864948

>>8864665
>>8864576
I don't think he's trolling.
The olive oil stains on my pillow case makes it a good idea.

>> No.8865184
File: 94 KB, 640x640, 1410655989979.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
8865184

looking for tips in order to have good curls when twisting out/braiding out/bantu knot-ing out

want to have curls like in the pic

>> No.8865204

>>8865184
I think he's mixed. I doubt you would get that hair from untwsiting or something

>> No.8865301
File: 184 KB, 500x750, pinterest.com_.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
8865301

>>8865204
yes i think too but it the only picture i had there are black people with nice curls and this is what i want

>> No.8865315

>>8865301
The closest I got to this hair style is when I straightened it. It looked horrible so I tried putting water on it and slept on it. It turned into that a bit but more straight

>> No.8865326

>>8865184
if i was black i'd want to look like this.

>> No.8865332

>>8865184
>when twisting out/braiding out/bantu knot-ing out
Are you a girl tho?

That's just how his hair is, you can't do that without some relaxer

>> No.8865347

>>8863502
I put a strong amount of cantu in every time I was my hair. So every 3-5 days.

>> No.8865448

>>8865332
im a boy

im looking for a hairstyle actually but don't want to use relaxers and shit so im trying things with natural and curls are what i like so

>> No.8865453

>>8865315
i dont want my hair to be like this it's just the only picture i had of a black person with good curls

>> No.8865533

>>8865448
you can get close to that by having like at least 6 inch long hair and doing a braid out.

>> No.8865551

>>8865533
i'll try that tonight thanks
i don't have 6 inch but something like 10-11 centimeters when straight (i dont know if you see what i mean anon)

>> No.8866085
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8866085

>>8864871
Morning and Night. wet your hands and go through your hair.
It helps to get shampoos that keep moisture too, "Shea Moisture" has a fantastic product line, look them up.

>> No.8866123

>>8865184
>>8865332
>you can't do that without some relaxer


Wrong, you have to do a twist out with a good curling creme or gel. You could also "rubber band" your hair in sections.

Using a texturizer or relaxer will give a straighter result then that. If your going to use that method you'll have get a touch up or the processed ends can shed or fall out.

>> No.8866143

>>8866123

But how long does it last. I feel like any moisture will cause the hair to curl up

>> No.8866243

>>8866123
is it possible to have advices about products for hair and also curling creme as you say?

>> No.8866726

>>8866123
Honestly that texture and level of looseness is something I have only seen with curlformers or roller sets on stretched/blowout/texlaxed hair

A twistout or knot out with 4b/c hair won't give that look believe me

>> No.8868033
File: 65 KB, 736x1104, black-mens-fade-haircut-hd-fade-haircut-black-men-dope-hairstyle-pinterest.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
8868033

Going to try and grow my hair, and copy this style.
Do you think he uses any hair conditioner/ shampoo? If so, what brand you recommend?

>> No.8868086

>>8864030
>calling a female a nigga
wypipo should not be posting in this thread

>> No.8868168

>>8868033
>shampoo

My nigga stop, that's over, that's dead, we know better

Get a clarifying shampoo once a month and use the "curly girl method" also ignore the name

Shea moisture is life but I am a bohonegro and so I like to support smaller black owned makers or when I have the cash bulk order raw ingredients and make my own

>> No.8868546

I normally just wear my afro really messy have for years, but I think after reading this I will try to sort myself out.
Thank you black hair thread.

>> No.8869292

>>8863502
>I heard about cowash, in which case it is beneficial?
>Can I get my hair wet when taking a shower with it?
Pls respond

>> No.8869316
File: 2.04 MB, 400x444, 1411416438691.gif [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
8869316

>ITT: light skin general

Can't stand you people.

>> No.8869327

>>8869316
I'm not dark as coal but my hair is a dry, harsh mess.
Hell it doesn't even look black, it has the color of mud.

>> No.8869331

>>8869327
Idktf bro I shave my head now. Planning on styling it soon though once this hightop fade fad plays out.

>> No.8869409

>>8869316

come on man no need for divisions, the whole light skin black skin nonsense is just some new trend.

>> No.8869762

>>8869327
On that note, what good conditioner makes haird darker and shinier?

>> No.8869773

>>8864094
this suits you really well btw

you didn't ask for advice on facial hair, but I think you'd look better if you shave it off.

THis looks fine too tho, you're good-looking m80.

>> No.8870385
File: 70 KB, 461x820, 1411913225-android-image-09-28-2014.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
8870385

what can i do w/ my hair?
im lost about it

>> No.8870416 [DELETED] 
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8870416

>>8870385

>> No.8870478

>>8870385
damn, still baby-faced.

>> No.8870482

1111

>> No.8870498 [DELETED] 

>>8863502
Fucking nigger kill yourself

>> No.8870732

>>8870478
yep it's difficult

>> No.8870741
File: 217 KB, 500x343, 1398123525468.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
8870741

>>8870416
why the fuck are you always on black hair threads only hating?

>> No.8870936

>>8870741
autism.

>>8870732
how long did it take to grow that?

>> No.8870986

>>8869316
>racism from one kind of black to another kind of black person even within the black community
Are you serious right now

>> No.8870988

>>8870385
what up Kdot

>> No.8871017

>>8870988
im really looking like him?

>> No.8871025

>>8866085
do you use the conditioner with this or something else?

>> No.8871026

>>8871017
A lil bit, might confuse you if I saw you on the streets especially since your both probably the same height

>> No.8871067

>>8869331
I can't wait either, tired of all these fucking white kids asking me to get a boxcut like boxcuts come out the back of trucks

>> No.8871074

>>8870385
Yo what the fuck you again? Your head is too round for a high top how many times I gotta say?
>and lose some weight

>> No.8871201

>>8871074
i can't have short hair it's uglier on me actually

and i don't have weight problems i just have babyfat

>> No.8871508

>>8870741
no life is suppose.

>> No.8871643
File: 14 KB, 256x256, d5bd09fd-de14-4424-9179-f86731251.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
8871643

>>8865332
I'm Somali and my hair looks like that when it's long, it's just curlier

This was me 3 yrs ago when I grew it out

>> No.8872219
File: 38 KB, 544x960, 1406673738784.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
8872219

Unsure what to do to mine

>> No.8872334

>>8863578
she's fucking PERFECT who is this??

>> No.8872346

>>8863806
what is this hair style called?
how long would it take to grow

>> No.8872361

>>8869316
Stupid fuccboi nigga
>>8870986
We don't have racism, we have shadeism

The only blacks who still follow that shit are poor for the most part, hell AKA and J&J's haven't been like that in decades
>>8871643
Get a rollerset, yeah it looks gay but it'll do wonders on definition

>> No.8872375
File: 1.33 MB, 3264x2448, image.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
8872375

fuck. look at that angle.
ppl irl tell me it's OK and looking at the mirror it looks fine. I'm inclined to believe them.
but look at that pic. I'm not tryna cut my hair again.

>> No.8872449
File: 565 KB, 577x438, neglected_type_2_hair_2_years.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
8872449

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U8GXX3tqiOg

What the... Why could i be born with white people hair, lol.
All he did was wash it once a week.

>> No.8872453

>>8872375
just let it grow and it'll get better over time, looks fine now though! Also just a suggestion but i think you'd look cool with twists on the top and shaved sides like Father

>> No.8872602
File: 285 KB, 1080x1920, 4818fe5b-d974-4076-ae00-78bb2205f.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
8872602

>>8872361
This is it currently

>> No.8872690

>>8872602
Your hair is supper short and honestly a Bantu knot out might not be enough, look up roller sets for short hair

>> No.8872720
File: 355 KB, 960x1280, 185.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
8872720

either fade, mini fro, braids, or a high and tight. will fit any black guy

>> No.8872722

>>8872602
NOW I AM THE CAPTAIN YOU HEAR ME?

>> No.8872723

>>8872219
imo, it's really matted. I don't really like the whole short dread look. You should try detangling all of it and doing a nice twist/braid out.

>> No.8872737

>>8872449
I've read about white people get dreads before and basically they're just letting their hair get fucking moldy.

>> No.8872830

>>8872453
Pics? Who's father?

>> No.8872878
File: 13 KB, 309x230, father.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
8872878

>>8872830
this guy, the hairstyle looks good short and long which is why is nice, i'd prefer shorter than this guys to search inspo for it i think it'd really suit you

>> No.8872919

>>8872722

I got my adv. Bio teacher to start calling me captain hahaha

>> No.8872991

>>8864080
>tfw just cant seem to get my waves spinnin

pls help

used sporting waves with a cut up stocking from my gran to cover my head and i got a few but damn, cant find the cool fancy brushes here either. can i see your waves son

>> No.8873023

>>8864505
>never had this

what difference will i make? i guess no more dirty hair that would be nice

>> No.8873027

>>8864569
a-aye gurl... show face and post fit

>> No.8873037

>>8873027
1. Nah
2. Nah
3. Not a girl

>> No.8873051

>>8866726

>tfw no proper grooming options for black men in my country, lack of good products, barbers etc
>tfw male
>tfw 4b/c hair
This is hair on GOD MODE
pls help

>> No.8873067

>>8873051
Negro like chill...

Anyway where are you from and what do you want?

>> No.8873088

>>8868168
>My nigga stop, that's over, that's dead, we know better

What does this mean? I have Head and Shoulders in my bathroom. Some of us are still lost. Please need guidance

#team4c

>> No.8873099

>>8873067
South African

I want to look like cool american with short hair looking straight when its flat if that makes sense and cool fade, i think i may need to start cutting my own hair

>> No.8873108

>>8873088
What is wrong with these cherrun?

Do
Not
Strip
Your
Scalp

Our hair stands, the oils do not reach the tip of our hair like hair that lies flat. A co-wash can be enough to remove dirt/debris/dust without ruining what oil is in out hair and it leaves moisture in the follicle

Which is important for growth and length retention

Look up curly girl method

>> No.8873110

>>8873099
...you are in South Africa and can't find black hair products?

>> No.8874560

>>8873051
If you have the internet you can get anything.

Black dudes should be cutting their own hair most of the time too imo.

its much easier for us.

>> No.8874563
File: 23 KB, 500x333, 1436576.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
8874563

Pic related is what mine is like atm, with shorter sides and more of a taper on the back bit.

based kissi

>> No.8874615

>>8872602
You look dorky as fuck Bro. Like all Somalia dudes I know looks so dorky. Lose the glasses, shave your head, trim the brows and cop some Jawnz

>> No.8874621

>>8874615
Also work out if you can or use your skinny ass to its advantage

>> No.8874717 [DELETED] 

Oooh, so THAT's why I got banned for saying "nigger" on this fucking board, because there are you many of you on here.

>> No.8874764
File: 33 KB, 500x331, tumblr_n1s9zvwX6a1smnbvqo1_500[1].jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
8874764

>>8865184

semi hijack tho but im mixed and this is what my hair is like naturally. would getting something like this be within my reach and what would i have to do to get it

>> No.8874946

>>8872346
High Fade with curls on Top

>> No.8875061

>>8873023
Black hair and moisture have an interesting relationship.
Because it doesnt like to hold on to moisture, and the fact that cotton likes to drag the moisture right out and damage hair simultaneously, it ends up giving you serious hair breakage and damage, keeping your hair short.

tl;dr silk caps/pillowcases will prevent hair from breaking and encourage growth

>> No.8875065

>>8874560
I need to get on this.
$20 for a buzz every two weeks was ridiculous.
Half the reason I grew out my fro in the first place.

>> No.8875073
File: 74 KB, 640x640, 4878975489.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
8875073

If you guys want some easy definition for any wild naps or really rugged nappy hair, check out this modified version of the Maximum Hydration Method:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Efe1wN9x7g

>> No.8875082

>>8875073
It DOES alter your curl pattern without all the ultra-chemical bullshit of perms or texturizers
But it makes hair way more manageable and allows your hair to retain moisture for much longer than it normally would.

>> No.8875100

>>8874764
go to a black hairdresser to have it done

>> No.8875113
File: 130 KB, 640x1136, 1411841818700.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
8875113

how to get this slicked back style
looks sick

>> No.8875130

>>8872878
Yo mate, watch out you have a big ass spider on your head.

>> No.8875215

>>8875113
Looks like it's just a high top fade that's blown out then combed back at the front
Prolly gets it rounded at a barber as well.

>> No.8875307

>>8873110
yeah not good ones like murrays and that kinda stuff. 99% of guys stay bald or are washing their hair with head and shoulders or shower gels or whatever never mind moisturising.

hard to get the nice and expensive organic shit shea butter and whatnot

is dark and lovely ok?

>> No.8875318

>>8875113
refs of the jacket?

>> No.8875461

>>8875318
all saints but apparently black version isnt available anymore