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/fa/ - Fashion


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17627000 No.17627000 [Reply] [Original]

/btg/ BOOT GENERAL - HANDWELTING EDITION

What do I need to care for my boots?
>Old cotton t shirt (one for cleaning, another for applying conditioners)
>Horsehair brush ($10-15)
>Wooden shoe trees ($10-15)
>Light conditioner like Lexol/Bck4/renovateur
>Heavy conditioner (if you live in terrible snow/rain areas) Sno seal/Obernauf LP
>Don't forget that boots need time to dry properly, rotate them an

How do I deal with x stain?
>mud: allow it to dry then brush off
>salt: water and cloth as soon as possible
>saturated wet: allow the boot to dry for a full day, stuff with newspaper
>scuffs and scratches: buff vigorously with horsehair brush

>Should I buy turdsdays/soloshits/doc shitans?
No they are filled with synthetic materials aimed at instant comfort but will not hold up to actual use.
>b-b-but muh ecelebs on youtube said they're good
no. you will waste your time and money and still have uncomfortable footwear at the end of the day. spend the extra $100 and get something real.

Manufacturer Red Flags
>Luxury
>Sustainable
>Vegan
>Unknown leather source
>Made in Chyna/Mexico/Indonesia

Boot Red Flags
>Dainite
>C*rk/C*lastic
>Zippers
>Non gusseted tongues
>Excessive/unnecessary seams

PREV>>17619870

>> No.17627003
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17627003

comfy in the forest

>> No.17627005

>>17627003
feel the rivet at all?

>> No.17627011

>>17627005
none whatsoever
could have been a potential problem if i downsized but got lucky with size&fit

>> No.17627174
File: 236 KB, 1080x1079, IMG_20230518_093330.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
17627174

I like whites 350 cruiser boots in roughout but I'm based in europe.
Is there a comparable boot made in Europe ?
I really like the built to last aspect but it kinda gets a bit redundant when I have to ship my boots over half the globe to get them repaired.

Also, while we're at it, i would appreciate a half lug sole or something a bit more outdoors capable.
And if I'm super picky I wouldn't mind something with a little less stitching around the sole and a little less heel.

>> No.17627203

>>17627174
euro brands rarely use roughout, best bet are some indonesian bootmakers. Skolyx has a pair of RO Service Boots from Midas.

>> No.17627214

>>17627203

Damn they looks very nice and clean !
I really don't know slot about boots, they sound very high quality, is there any reason to choose whites over those ?

>> No.17627226
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17627226

>>17627214
i mean they look very different and don't have much in common apart from being handwelted and the RO leather. Pro is that you deal with a european retailer. Other indonesian makers will make you a logger boot that looks more similar for $400-$600 or so, problem is sizing can be difficult and they ship from Asia obviously.

>> No.17627307
File: 141 KB, 792x1024, 168425644201817874.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
17627307

Carmina MTO shipped!
Still don’t know if I will fit in them or not

>> No.17627318

>>17627307
what did you order

>> No.17627339
File: 183 KB, 1080x1253, 168440408844116516.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
17627339

>>17627318
https://carminacustom.com/42NXAZE

>> No.17627401
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17627401

>>17627339
very nice anon, i quite like those soles on mine but ridgeway is still better. I wonder who makes themm, they say Made in England on them but they aren't dainite or itshide as far as im aware.

Also my carminas on their first day out today, not sure how well the navy denim fits color 8 shell.

>> No.17627627

>>17627174
try portugal anon is similar to what you looking for
https://urbanshepherdboots.com/shop

>> No.17627643

>>17627401
>Ridgeway soles are hardwearing rubber soles that is made by Dainite. Dainite being an outsole producing company in the UK. Ridgeway soles are originally produced so that people can still wear their brogues while they play golf.

>> No.17627644
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17627644

>>17627000
Are south african boots any good?

>> No.17627654

>>17627174
if you like the PNW chonky aesthetic there really isn't a europoor equivalent

>> No.17627659

>>17627644
Just get French rangers.

>> No.17627666
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17627666

>>17627643
yes, im talking about the 'Victoria' sole that Carmina offers. It says made in england on them but neither dainite or itshide produce them.

>> No.17627670
File: 96 KB, 1000x750, Imagepipe_58.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
17627670

So I got my pair of Blundstone Chelseas and lace-ups, pic rel
The chelseas have this bulbousness/chunkiness where the other shoes have laces, it looks a bit weird on the foot - does anyone know if it'll stay like that permanently, or if it'll maybe 'collapse' a bit from wear and look more normal eventually?
You can sort of see it in the pic

>> No.17627674

>>17627666
http://www.trlawman.co.uk/products/footwear-components/soles/victory-rubber-soles

found them i guess

>> No.17627680
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17627680

>>17627670
Another angle

>> No.17627683
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17627683

>>17627670
>buying lace up boots from a company famous for making elastic boots

>> No.17627697

>>17627644
i always look at those waxi boots on kommandostore and wonder if they're actually any good. i wish rose anvil would do them

>> No.17627736

Anyone know some lower cut boots? not so low as to be chukkas, but shorter than the standard 6" for service boots. 5-6 eyelet range.

Also on the more affordable side is preferred. Thanks

>> No.17627737

>>17627627
Very interesting!
Almost perfect and they seem to be a steal.

I contacted them about some details, but these might be the ones.

>> No.17627747

>>17627737
check out pic here >>17627003
they will get lightly darker as they age and even darker still if you use mink oil on them
look at their sizing and maybe consider going for 1,3 cm more... i.e if your foot is 27cm long then opt for 28,4 or size 43,
>
Usually, we recommend adding 7-10 mm, so for a foot of 27 cm, we recommend size 42. However, if you wear some thicker socks in the winter or if you have very wide feet, you might want to go for the 43.
Some people prefer a tighter fit, and others like it a bit looser.
this part ..

>> No.17627778
File: 468 KB, 1079x1027, Vibergs 2030 Brown CXL.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
17627778

It's now solidly over 25C every single day
Time to put the boots back in their boxes until mid October

Sad

I'm probably going to sell the Vibergs before next winter. I like them but it's not a good fit.
Might get Carminas in brown CXL instead. Might get bonafes in brown zug. We'll see.

>> No.17627781

>>17627737
>and they seem to be a steal
a year ago all of their boots cost 100 EUR less

>> No.17627782
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17627782

>>17627778
>Time to put the boots back in their boxes until mid October
wrong

>> No.17627819

>>17627778
What size are the vibergs and how much do you want for them?

>> No.17627822

>>17627819
They are UK10 on 2030 last

I don't know how to value them, I haven't looked into it yet
How much do these go for usually?

>> No.17627832

>>17627822
I honestly dont know the valuation. but I love the look of them and that just happens to be my size. Do some research and give me a price your comfortable with, and if I can afford it we can work something out.
Im 2poor to afford new vibergs

>> No.17627858

>>17627822
you could probably get 600+ for those on reddit

here maybe 400

>> No.17627863
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17627863

>>17627736
>Anyone know some lower cut boots?
Whites has got u senpai
Semi dress

>> No.17627866

>>17627863
sorry, I should have specified that I want normal boots that dont scare the hoes

>> No.17627867

>>17627863
>affordable
>whites
bruh

>> No.17627868

>>17627866
Timberland

>> No.17627871

>>17627867
Those are half the price of comparable vibergs

>> No.17627883
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17627883

>>17627866
Get some boots from fracap
Very on trend, decent construction, huge end of season sale discounts if you dig around a bit
https://www.endclothing.com/us/brands/fracap?page=1

>> No.17627885

>>17627858
>you could probably get 600+ for those on reddit
are they retarded? I have a pair of CXL 2030s with perfect creasing, might have to sell that.

>> No.17627887
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17627887

>>17627883
Goddamn these shits look good
https://m.thehipstore.co.uk/product/black-fracap-m128-boots/17203534/

>> No.17627895

>>17627887
>Goddamn these shits look good

>> No.17627903

>>17627867
consider the cost per wear and they are super affordable

>> No.17627904
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17627904

>>17627883
>>17627887
>autists wearing hiking boots irl

>> No.17627934

>>17627866
Nobody ever notices my White's and I've been wearing them since 2017

>> No.17628000
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17628000

>>17627904
Hiking boots are fire

>> No.17628010

Jim Green Stockman (€170) or Blundstone 550 (€130)?

>> No.17628062

>>17628010
jim

>> No.17628113
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17628113

>> No.17628115
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17628115

>>17628113
>facings that touch

>> No.17628116

>>17628115
Just Grant Stone things.

>> No.17628117

>>17628113
Based boots and position assumer

>> No.17628127

What were your first three pairs of boots?

Mine were:
Thursday Captains -> Red Wing Moc Toes -> Allen Edmonds Dalton boot

I still like the Red Wings.

>> No.17628128
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17628128

>> No.17628129

>>17628127
RW 875s, then Iron Rangers and finally the beckmans

stopped wearing red wings after i got my whites

>>17628128
sexo

>> No.17628133

>>17628129
I'd still wear the Beckmans if I were you. What color/size?

>> No.17628136

>>17628133
nah the white's archease is where it is

9E

>> No.17628166

>>17628113
eee?
them some wide boys, way wider than my e

>> No.17628202

>>17628113
we know you edited out jerome buttfucking your soibuss

>> No.17628205

>>17628202
sir we keep the mental illness cork related here

>> No.17628234
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17628234

here's a 15% off code if any of you want it, for truman boots, that i got from doing a survey. unfortunately they just don't work for my feet and i now have other boots that fit better. 23-MD27Q

>> No.17628244

have any of you fallen in love with one pair of boots?
i have one pair i really like and will wear it twice a week leaving 4 days to wear seven pairs
a few are starting to get neglected

>>17628234
>just bought boots
>want trumans
brb jumping off a cliff. hope someone is happy with the discount

>> No.17628297

>>17628166
Must be perspective. They are D.

>> No.17628301

>>17628297
>They are D.
what the fuggg
size 7?

>> No.17628346
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17628346

buy caiman boots

>> No.17628347
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17628347

Does this look like a 360-degree welt? I asked Carmina for that but this looks like a 270 to me

>> No.17628351
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17628351

>>17628347
another angle

>> No.17628353

>>17628351
>>17628347
270

>> No.17628361

>>17628347
>I asked Carmina for that
oof
its not going to come undone but thats undoubtedly a 270

>> No.17628371

>>17628353
>>17628361
ugh ok 270 is fine too I guess it's not a big deal. The soles aren't configured to be super chunky anyways. Carmina might have just saved me from myself yet again.
but I do have to say, this is the second time in a row that Carmina has deviated from what I requested in the MTO.

>> No.17628375

>>17628371
based on btg alone it seems like options from carmina are a myth and you just get whatever the factory makes

>> No.17628382
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17628382

>>17628371
>deviated from order
>a second time

>> No.17628388
File: 1 KB, 133x30, bruh.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
17628388

>>17628347
>>17628351
the welt option as I submitted it

>>17628375
at least they got every other option right I think

>>17628382
yeah, the first time was a difference in eyelet color, for which I actually ended up agreeing with them
but still, the fact that they didn't contact me at all makes it seem like an unconscious decision/ignorance that happened on the factory floor which is, yeah, questionable

>> No.17628412

how are grenson brady boots? was looking at danner but it doesn't seem worth it for the price

>> No.17628456

>>17627000
How long does it take to break in moccasins? They are killing my feet! I’m tempted to buy a wider size but I know they will be too loose after they break in. This happened to me before and after a year they were to sloppy. Any tips to speed up the process? Just suffer? Damage my feet?

>> No.17628545

>>17628346
What model is that ?

>> No.17628723
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17628723

Can asians pull off service boots? 5' 7" in an asian country btw

>> No.17628724

>>17628388
is there any reason you'd want a 360 (non stormwelt) over a 270?

>> No.17628807

do you guys criss-cross lace inwards or outwards?

>> No.17628850

Is there a cream or something to make light brown leather boots darker brown?

>> No.17628861

>>17628850
try mink oil and if its not enough you can buy saphir juvacuir.

>> No.17628916

>>17628723
??? Just wear them

>> No.17628956

>>17628351
>>17628347
It's 270 but imo it looks better than 360
360 creates a shelf of a heel

>> No.17628967

is it bad if you and your boss go to a client meeting and your shoes are way better than your boss?

>> No.17628987
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17628987

>>17627883

>> No.17628992

>>17628987
I wish this exact one but in black

>> No.17629009

>>17628545
it's an mp sherman boot made for japan

>> No.17629011

>>17628723
adians in asian countries can wear anything

>> No.17629095

>>17628807
surely you mean under or over

>> No.17629141

>>17628456
You should buy the right size or go to a cobbler to enlarge your shoes. Break-in is a lie made by butthurt dimwit dickheads trying to cope with poorly sized leather footwear.

>>17628850
I got the wrong repair colour cream on my shoes once, it took two bottles of renomat to clean but I like how it darkened. I don't recommend juvacuir, knowing saphir you probably won't remove it successfully.

>> No.17629161

>>17628724
unexplainable autism

>> No.17629170

>>17628113
Nice

>> No.17629203

How much little toe to leather side contact is acceptable, that is what's ok and what's too narrow?

>> No.17629206

>>17629203
>How much little toe to leather side contact is acceptable
shouldn't really be touching desu

>> No.17629258

>>17629203
depends
if it touches but the boot doesnt visibly bulge then it should be fine

>> No.17629295

>>17629206
>>17629258
say it is touching but not painfully so and not bulging, can I expect it to stretch a little with wear?

>> No.17629298

>>17629295
dont count on it stretching into a comfortable width if its uncomfortable

>> No.17629312
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17629312

sexo

>>17629295
yea a little, wear thick wool socks

>> No.17629318

>>17629298
What if it's not uncomfortable, just feelable

>> No.17629370
File: 1.56 MB, 3024x4032, fOEk3KK.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
17629370

got a used pair of shoes in great condition but there's a small rip on one of the collars (picrel) and it's held together only by the stitching, i'm sure it can only get worse with use
anyone have experience with this kind of damage? is there any hope before i get ripped off by a cobbler?

>> No.17629410

>>17629370
Can a cobbler even fix this?

>> No.17629429

>>17629410
i was thinking a small leather patch glued and stitched on the inside and something like a flexible filler for leather for the outside? dunno

>> No.17629530
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17629530

i would just like to shout out THE ABSOLUTE MORONS ITT that actually thought color 8 was applied in 8 stain layers and color 4 is the same dye just brushed 4 times

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uIfDKxgBbNE

>> No.17629556

>>17629530
it's called navy shell because its submerged in dye and shell turns blue when these no oxygen

>> No.17629601

>>17629530
tanneries always look like such a grim place to work at

>> No.17629622
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17629622

Gray suede actually looks pretty good on an Indy

>> No.17629624

>>17629601
horween says they have a real problem with labor, because working there sucks
it's really demanding physical labor in a dark, humid, hot, smelly warehouse where you are working with dead animal parts and industial chemicals that preserve them, handling them with just gloves on, meaning you are breathing all this shit in day in and day out

>> No.17629634

Sorry for reposting this here but I assume you guys are knowledgeable about the topic. >>17629627

>> No.17629641

>>17629634
leather sole will always be more formal, get the leather soles for the occasion, then get a cobbler to slap a topy on

>> No.17629647

>>17629634
desu I dont think you need to be concerned with everyday traction in an oxford
get the leather sole

>> No.17629650

>>17629641
>>17629647
Thanks anons

>> No.17629652
File: 334 KB, 1430x1600, Beckett Simonon Brent Oxfords.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
17629652

>>17629634
It depends where you are and who is attending. If most of the people attending think jeans and a flannel is dressing up, then nobody except maybe the women will notice.
Realistically speaking, if you don't see yourself ever wearing them again, do you really care?

You might check out Beckett Simonon as well, if the occasion is still well off in the year. They are a good bit cheaper, still quite decent quality. The catch is that every single shoe is made to order, so you'll have to wait several months for it and they don't offer wide sizes.

>> No.17629661

>>17629634
people don't look at the soles of your shoes and if they do leather soles get scratched instantly, which doesn't look that great
but leather is more traditional, it's easier to break in, easier on your feet in general and more breathable
for a shoe that you wear once every blue moon and don't intend to get wet and doesn't need crazy traction it's the better choice

>> No.17629668

>>17629652
Honestly I only know one person who is attending and would probably notice since he is or at least used to be a /fa/ggot when we were in high school. Half will be mediterranean people, half will be americans, I think from Virginia. No clue how fashion sense tends to be there since I'm part of the mediterranean crowd.
I'm already very late for this stuff that's why I'm turning to /fa/ for help instead of trying stuff. Thanks and shout out to the anon who also saw my post on the fragrance general.
>>17629661
Thanks anon. I have a pair of pants that I like to wear with black leather boots in non formal situations so I thought I'd use the oxfords to switch it up a little. I guess I can do what >>17629641 suggested though

>> No.17629678

>>17629634
You need to match the rest of the groomsmen, this is not the occasion to flex on everyone

>> No.17629679

>>17629668
>I think from Virginia
East coast Americans typically dress up more nicely than other states, so people might actually look at your shoes.
But to be completely honest, if you're getting black Oxfords, you might as well go the full formal mile and get leather soles. It's not like you'll be able to fit them into any setting that would require a rubber sole.

>> No.17629688

>>17629652
Women don't know shit about men's shoes. If you just want to impress women get shiny black plastic.

>> No.17629692

>>17629661
>leather soles get scratched instantly, which doesn't look that great
Leather soles need to be scuffed and scratched or else they're slippery as ice. That is what a sole looks like.
>leather is more traditional, it's easier to break in, easier on your feet in general and more breathable
>sole
>breathable
I am skeptical that you are talking about anything you have experienced personally.

>> No.17629693
File: 1.33 MB, 1000x677, 1679665865538272.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
17629693

thought on seal skin?

>> No.17629694

>>17629693
Looks like someone sprayed his shoes with truck bed liner.

>> No.17629700

>>17629678
We're all getting the same suits made by the same tailor, but they didn't really specify anything about the shoes and
the only two other groomsmen I know will just use what they already have. Since I don't have anything appropriate to wear I'm thinking about making a semi-decent purchase instead of just going to the mall
>>17629679
Alright good to know thank you

>> No.17629711
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17629711

>>17629693
no

>> No.17629718

>>17629693
Cool, but I'll stick with m'sharkskin.

>> No.17629755
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17629755

god i love yuketens

>> No.17629925

>>17629141
>Break-in is a lie made by butthurt dimwit dickheads trying to cope with poorly sized leather footwear.
Well it’s not really a lie. I have the exact same moccasins, one is D with and the other is wide. The wide mocs felt great out the box, no break in needed. But after a year, they stretched and were too loose and sloppy. I had to throw them away and buy the D width. The D width took a while to break in and were tight and hurt for a while. But somewhere along the line they became perfect and fit like a glove. I still have them after 4 years. Maybe it’s a moccasin thing only?

>> No.17629945
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17629945

how would /btg/ style these

>> No.17629962

>>17629945
i wouldn't

>> No.17629963

>>17629945
go full leprechauncore

>> No.17630017

>>17629945
With a beer belly and a tightly tucked in striped shirt. The rest is up to preference

>> No.17630032

>>17629945
Unhemmed jeans with the back ripped and dirty from being dragged against the floor
Untucked white dress shirt trying to cover the beer belly
Unstructured, unbuttoned black suit jacket

>> No.17630055

>>17629755
Yuketen Angler boots looks nice to me. Haven't seen many reviews though so dunno about the quality

>> No.17630059

>>17629945
Jorts and a FUBU jersey

>> No.17630113

I walk in martins and you can do nothing about it.

>> No.17630168

>>17630113
Except laugh.

>> No.17630356
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17630356

Wedding fag here, ended up ordering these with a leather sole. Thanks again for the recs

>> No.17630384

>>17630356
I have Carminas in similar style and they've never let me down.
Business meeting, wedding, funeral, just put those bad boys on and go.

>> No.17630386

>>17630356
>>17630384
Also forgot to say, you should wear these around the house at least before you put them on for the wedding.
On my TLBs I had a little heel slip at first but that disappeared after 2 wears or so (8 hours in the office).
Also from my experience you can't properly shine brand new shoes, you gotta wear them a couple of times and then they can be shined properly.

>> No.17630401

>>17630384
I can imagine that to be the case if they look anywhere near as good in person. I planned on spending way less but couldn't resist once I saw these. There was something weird about the shape of the cheaper ones that I was unsure about. Not sure what.
>>17630386
Good to know, thanks. I assume you wouldn't recommend just going there with the factory shine? I have never shined a shoe before so I don't want to risk making them look retarded

>> No.17630474

>>17630401
Not sure how polished they will be out of the box but instead of spending like $15 on polish and $15 on wax and $15 on a brush (that will last you for years) it's probably cheaper to take them to a cobbler this one time and ask for a shine, I can't imagine they will ask for more than like $5-10

>> No.17630481

>>17630356
hope they fit

t. have 2 pairs of carminas, one fits great, the other is easily 2 sizes off its nominal size

>> No.17630535

>>17630474
Even more is fine. I just hope I have the time to do it in western Europe because I don't think Balkan niggas have Saphir and shit
>>17630481
I sure fucking hope so man. Couldn't you have returned them? That's retarded

>> No.17630582

When do sales usually happen? I figure there's black friday, end of line sale (in january) and summer sale (around the end of june)? Are those three major sales that most brands share?

>> No.17630589

>>17630582
black friday is the biggest and is what I wait for.

>> No.17630596

>>17630589
How to make sure you can actually get the stuff during sales? Pre-pick and check daily for the announcement?

>> No.17630600

>>17630582
easter sales happened just a while ago, if you want to find deals you need to constantly check the outlets and seconds sales.

>> No.17630602

>>17630582
>wait for sale
>2 year wait time
nothing personnell kid

>> No.17630611

>>17628346
link please

>> No.17630618

>>17630055
I've handled a couple pairs of yuketens (DB maine guide, ranger mocs and ring boot) and they're pretty good, thick veg tan midsole with true handsewn moc, they do use a thin celastic piece for the heel counter

>>17630611
https://emptygarage.jp/SHOP/WHITESSTOCK288.html

>> No.17630639

>>17630356
Should have gone with Loake. Absolutely nothing can beat them as a go-to dress shoe in times if need

>> No.17630665
File: 241 KB, 640x480, whitesbruh.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
17630665

>>17630618
>emptygarage.jp
lmao what are japs smoking when they request this?

>> No.17630670

>>17630582
>When do sales usually happen?
check grant stones sale page every week

>> No.17630674
File: 391 KB, 640x640, whites9338.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
17630674

>>17630665
also they really like these munson/duck feet lasts for some reason

i have not seen anything on whites 9338 last before, also most of the shoes on aldens 379x/modified last land in japan

>> No.17630691

>>17630665
sometimes MTO is a mistake

>> No.17630817

>>17630674
this is what happens when a country receives 2 nuclear warhead detonations on major city centers.
The consequences will linger on for generations

>> No.17631080
File: 783 KB, 752x538, 1678595384043212.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
17631080

nigs tranny heel

>> No.17631107

>>17631080
god i hate manlets

>> No.17631355
File: 130 KB, 1064x1064, n.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
17631355

>> No.17631356

>>17631355
Based and unique

>> No.17631381

>>17631355
>ripple sole
remember when vi(((berg))) threw a shitfit when someone else used it

>> No.17631401

>>17630401
Some makers, like Carmina, have an option to do a mirror shine before sending your shoes. And add metal toe caps, they will save your sole.

>> No.17631682

>>17631401
When I ordered my Bonafes with leather sole + topy I asked if I should get metal plates too and they told me they make noise + scratch floors so I said no

Topy is easy enough to replace anyway

>> No.17631696
File: 156 KB, 1080x1100, fn.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
17631696

>>17631381
love the ripple and love fracap

>> No.17631698
File: 1020 KB, 2560x1707, explorer-z700-chestnut-boots-5-scaled.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
17631698

>> No.17631912
File: 1.60 MB, 1199x540, old boot.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
17631912

Time to upgrade from these £70 boots to £170 boots. Still the comfiest pair of shoes I own.

>> No.17631945

>>17631698
These are super hot.
How well will they hold up to daily wear ?

I can't tell if fracap stuff is purely well made fashion or if that stuff is also built to last.

>> No.17631986

>>17630674
The japs really like the alden x379 "military" last (aka alden's interpretation of munson), the alden modified and also the vass banana last and all others like it.
I read because they have more sickle shaped, banana curve, feet and so these kinds of wonky lasts fit them far better.
I remember the endless seethe on the old forums about how alden sends 99% of its modified last options to japan and how every stockist except the moldy shoe inn ny whom they've been doing business with for a century is the only exception in being able to request special makeups in the modified.
Considering the number of responses in those thread on sf there's a lot of people in the us that might be better served with the modified.
The x379's become more available but the modified is still being sent mainly to japan.

>> No.17631999
File: 1.28 MB, 869x882, 1671312775566886.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
17631999

>> No.17632026
File: 2.92 MB, 960x540, 1677442241197437.webm [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
17632026

Recommend me the most comfortable boot I can walk around 8 hours a day in for several days in a row. I get that there are tons of sneakers that do the job, but I want something that looks good.

>> No.17632031

>>17632026
usa or europe, and what kind of environment are you walking around in?

>> No.17632033

>>17632026
whites

>> No.17632048

>>17632033
do you get paid for this shit or what?

>> No.17632052

>>17632048
he is the spirit of otto white

>> No.17632123

>>17632031
USA, mostly city, but I'd like to be able to take them hiking every so often.

>>17632033
Any specific White's boot?

>> No.17632146
File: 153 KB, 415x290, docs.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
17632146

I want boots like picrel but don't care for Martens.
what do I buy?

>> No.17632150
File: 3.08 MB, 4000x3000, 1678568117407251.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
17632150

>>17632123
I am partial to the semi dress model, its slightly shorter (5 inches) on the 55 last, very very comfortable. pic related is my pair in the black cherry water buffalo for about 5 years. the custom bounty model is a good one too but a little chunkier all round

>>17632048
>how dare people recommend what they like and wear
lol, lmao even

>> No.17632174

>>17627904
Hikers don't even wear hiking boots anymore lmao

>> No.17632181

>>17632174
majority of modern "hikers" are walking cemented/prepared paths

>> No.17632186

>>17632123
there are many boots that would work for you. out of my modest collection, parkhurst was the most comfortable right out of the box and they are my go to office boots now. i also have a pair of white's mp boots that were very difficult to break in thanks to my ogre feet, but now they are very nice. if i had any idea that i was going to casually be outdoors i would take those.

>> No.17632187
File: 183 KB, 1024x683, 324145_11557_XL.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
17632187

>>17632181
I do legit hiking high altitude shit. Unless you need specialty boots for crampons or something, shit like picrel is usually the way to go.

>> No.17632204

Why is Dainite a redflag on a boot?

>> No.17632208

>>17632204
you can ignore all the red flags.

>> No.17632209

>>17632204
>doesn't perform well in wet urban environment
>doesn't perform well in outdoors
>despite being a rubber not shock absorbing at all

>> No.17632210

>>17632208
Love the advice m8. Thanks for the tip.

>> No.17632218

>>17632209
its only tile that its bad on, wet concrete is perfectly fine. Once its worn down a bit and you get a bit more surface area it performs much better over all though.
Pros are that it lasts really damn long, doesn't carry dirt into the office and its low profile. Comfort is apparently only a problem if your boots construction lacks the cork layer, multiple people seem to have a problem with dainite on stitchdown vibergs but not on other GYW boots or shoes.

>> No.17632226

>>17632218
i have it on a pair of AE strands and they're shit

>> No.17632230

>>17632218
I've order a pair of mp dainite whites.So I'm excited to see how they perform.

>> No.17632252

>>17632204
Just assume that people that say they're a redflag have sissy feet syndrome and therefore can't handle the powerful firmness of dainite soles. My pair of boots(C&J) have dainite. I think they're great.
>no dirt or pebbles can possibly stick to them
>sexy looking
>long lasting
And I have not noticed them being particularly slippery

>> No.17632265

>>17632204
one corkless viberg wearer had an issue

>> No.17632274

>>17629945
black skinny jeans black tshirt and a slut on each arm

>> No.17632300

>>17632204
What the others have said.
Basically think of dainite as a straight replacement for shitty, non-bark tanned, leather soles for dress shoes. If you use your boots in the same environs as an oxford or blucher or whatever, then dainite is good enough.
If you're doing any kind of outdoor or shop work then don't choose dainite. Think of it as a much longer lasting shitty leather sole. Would you use a shitty leather sole to romp about the a forest or on an oil slick factory floor?
If yes, then choose dainite.

>> No.17632374

>>17632300
I like Dainite but I agree with the substance of what you said. Dainite is a drop-in replacement for a full leather sole. It's hard and thin to keep the profile close to a leather sole while making a slight concession to practicality.

>> No.17632410
File: 444 KB, 1800x1200, ridgeline_hiker_muddy.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
17632410

>>17632026

>> No.17632471
File: 234 KB, 1600x1200, 490234-02934-02.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
17632471

I like the aesthetic of these doc martens. Too bad they so cheap in construction. https://youtu.be/LlLYKiNLvOQ

>> No.17632475

>>17632471
you like looking like a fucking clown?

>> No.17632484

>>17632471
How old are you bro?

>> No.17632486

>>17632484
old enough to be such a punk to wear these boots. I mean look at these, it screams some cyberpunk gitup. Too bad the brand is piggybacking on the punk scene.

>> No.17632488

>>17632486
It screams gay cringe for 14 year olds.

>> No.17632501

screams male to female transition

>> No.17632502
File: 85 KB, 1024x542, caballero.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
17632502

>>17627000
need a rec frens.
>square toe
>wide toe box
>suede
>storm welt
What is the Whitespill for cowboy boots?

>> No.17632508
File: 1.48 MB, 1080x748, 1673419853467539.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
17632508

>>17632502
smokejumpers on 4811 last in roughout is right up your alley

>> No.17632515

>>17632508
Added to the list, but I meant across brands--who is well-known for their construction and durability for a cowboy boot?

>> No.17632792

>>17631912
Who made them?

>> No.17632818
File: 204 KB, 473x1000, 1662632372736269.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
17632818

>> No.17632828
File: 436 KB, 2560x1708, magnifico-m127-roy-scaled.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
17632828

>> No.17632836

>>17632026
Blunnies

>> No.17632893

>>17632836
>chinkmade trash
no thanks

>> No.17632894

>>17632893
Only comfort was specified ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

>> No.17632938
File: 3.82 MB, 4032x3024, IMG_1334.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
17632938

Finally got my second pair of boots, I'm the most handsome cub in da city today.

>> No.17633040

>>17632938
What boots are these?

>> No.17633049

>>17633040
those are jodhpurs, by tlb mallorca to be exact.

>> No.17633085

Where can I get a pair of Redback boots in the EU?

>> No.17633154

>>17633085
the UBJK model, specifically

>> No.17633217
File: 39 KB, 768x512, bstone-lugs-day-one1728-1660228416.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
17633217

>>17627000
thoughts on the blundstone lugs?

>> No.17633302

>>17632938
First thing I thought "that looks like TLB's new Madison last" but maybe I'm wrong

Anyway, if it is let us know how it fits

I have a pair of TLB dress shoes and although they feel much lighter than other high end shoes I own, and at first I thought the leather might be very thin and prone to creasing, in fact they are creasing better than just about any other leather shoes I own and the quality of the build and stitching etc is excellent.

>> No.17633314
File: 838 KB, 300x300, 1684633308325564.gif [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
17633314

>>17633217
>blundstones

>> No.17633320

>>17633302
It's a Madison last, it's narrow as fuck, especially toward the forefoot and they know it since they mailed me to confirm the width. Turned out their E width is a bit narrower than Grant Stone D width. But the box calf leather is thin and soft enough to be my most comfortable shoe to date.

>> No.17633362

>>17633085
Unless you find an actual stockist that handles europe you're sol I'm afraid.
When I was last in oz I bought a couple of pairs of aussie workboots including 2 pairs of redback. The seller I got a pair from, who also runs everythingaustralian.com, told me the trouble he had shipping them overseas against the company's regulation. Basically redback would be on his ass if he dared break the deal by shipping the boots outside of his designated country. Totally gay.
Apparently some jelly kiwi cunt of a seller secretly ordered a pair from the aussie guy and then tattled to redback; the aussie dealer was shipping outside of aus! REEEEEE
Personally the pair of Mongrel boots I got feels like better quality overall, although they are wider in fit.
Redback half sizes are just wider in width; mongrel main sizes are the equivalent of a rb wide fitting.
If you can't find redback in europe, I doubt you'll find mongrel though. I hope that company actually tries to expand and actually offer an aussie made boot.

>> No.17633394

>>17633362
I've found an eu mongrel stockist, but they look a bit too workwear-y
I've also found Redbacks since first posting, but they're way overpriced here

>> No.17633459
File: 127 KB, 1158x686, Carmina PTB Snuff Suede.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
17633459

I got my Carmina PTBs from the MTO event.
It's the Soller last and the fit feels perfect.
I went with Carmina's Ridgeway sole (clone) which is great as usual.

Only thing I'm not sure of is the colour. I asked for Snuff but this looks way darker.
In this photo is looks a bit reddish because of Samsung phone, it's not red at all. It's just a dark brown.

Maybe it's different in sunlight. The suede feels amazing and I'm not bummed by the color at all, it's not bad just different than what I expected.
I have snuff suede Alden boots and they are totally different, much lighter in color and even a bit yellow in some lights.

>> No.17633462

>>17633459
that's definitely not snuff

>> No.17633463
File: 233 KB, 1362x938, Carmina PTB Snuff Suede 2.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
17633463

>>17633459
Here's another angle, the color of the right shoe is closer to real life.
I don't know why the two shoes look so different in this photo, they are completely identical IRL.

>> No.17633478

>>17633463
Try to disable as much software processing as you can. God I fucking hate the software assisted photo meme. I don’t want to have to carry a point and shoot every where I go

>> No.17633494

>>17633478
I think suede might be harder to photograph than shell

I tried to take a photo of my shell boots a few times and gave up. It just doesn't work.

>> No.17633794

>>17632048
Just one fat autist who never post fit.

>> No.17633814
File: 3.64 MB, 3456x3456, 1671973983789722.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
17633814

>>17633459
>>17633463
it looks completely different to my carmina snuff boots but it doesn't look like brown either, maybe polo? That's quite reddish. Snuff in natural light.

>> No.17633822
File: 539 KB, 860x1192, Alden Indy Snuff Suede 2.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
17633822

>>17633814
Yep that's similar to what I expected with snuff, those look much closer to my Aldens

I'll wear the PTBs tomorrow and take a photo in direct sunlight.

>> No.17633826

>>17632792
good old Clark's

>> No.17633865

>>17632938
>>17633049
I love the look of these, and want to order a pair. How true to size are they based off the size guide on their website? Bonus retard question: I haven't owned boots this dressy, is it typical to wear thicker socks with them?

>> No.17633886

>>17633865
considering he said they are already very narrow you're unlikely to be wearing thick socks with them.

>> No.17633912
File: 482 KB, 750x750, Men_s_oxford_wholecut_shoes_in_black_with_dress_trouser_750X.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
17633912

for oxfords and wholecuts, how big of an angle is acceptable for the V-opening?

>> No.17634041
File: 56 KB, 897x882, 1669590975651585.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
17634041

>>17633794
>no fit posted
well well well who's the fat autist now

>> No.17634043
File: 520 KB, 515x478, 1678587387830260.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
17634043

finally a boot for all the footlets

>> No.17634050

https://www.thenobleshoe.com/collections/group-made-to-orders-pre-orders/products/enzo-bonafe-art-2690mod-button-boots

https://www.thenobleshoe.com/collections/group-made-to-orders-pre-orders/products/enzo-bonafe-3896-horsebit-gucci-loafers

incredible value and already confirmed.

>> No.17634053
File: 2.04 MB, 1332x888, 1669626437856604.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
17634053

>>17634050
thats...something else

>> No.17634054

>>17634053
button boots are really cool

>> No.17634287

>>17633865
You can mail what kind of boot you own to tlb directly, they have a size chart of various shoes makers. Beside, jodhpur are the most casual kind of boot, it's not dressy at all.

>> No.17634334
File: 151 KB, 590x590, image_a8c27460-1a14-4950-838f-192952efd874_590x.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
17634334

>>17627000
are panama jacks any good been looking for a alternative to timberlands that werent associated with niggers

>> No.17634371

>>17634334
just get the thursday explorer if you want something like timbs

>> No.17634375

how can I justify buying a pair of nicks when they are literally 3x-5x the price of any other shoes I own?

>> No.17634384

>>17634375
rubber is very very expensive, almost as expensive as leather

>> No.17634412

>>17633826
is clarks any good?

>> No.17634473
File: 336 KB, 1600x1200, DSC00320.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
17634473

does anyone know where a euro can get a got pair of corcoran jump boots to buy without paying massive shipping costs?

>> No.17634475

>>17634412
Good budget boots and shoes that always come with good insoles. They tend to do a burnt tip on their brown shoes though which I hate. Their designs are mostly ugly apart from the basics like a simple lace up boot which you would assume couldn't possibly go wrong.

>> No.17634574
File: 171 KB, 1280x720, maxresdefault.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
17634574

got a couple of these in different colours. I just like how they look.

>> No.17634588

>>17627644
>>17627697
I've been wearing waxis to work for a good six or seven months now (kitchen)
I have a half combat and a full combat. I prefer the full combat but something about the soles doesn't play as nice as the half combat. For all intents and purposes, the boots are loafers with laces and straps. However, one thing you will have to do is get a good ass insole or else you're gonna be feeling the burn. And depending on the thickness of your insole, you may end up a bit tight on the tops of your feet.
Still, even for the occasional problem, the waxis are nicer than my old Sanitas. The boots look significantly nicer (especially right after my weekend, when I've given them a good cleaning) and also I get to blouse them, which is great for dealing with the ends of my pants. Further, because they're boots, you can lace them secure. When I ladder lace them and belt myself in, the boots are going nowhere.

>> No.17634721
File: 171 KB, 1280x720, 1684847841677950.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
17634721

>>17634574
Can't believe there's people paying for this shit.

>> No.17634763

>>17634050
Will they do this once a month like Skoak does for Bonafe GMTOs?

>> No.17634765

>>17633912
That's too big

The ideal V is one where the facings are very close but do not touch. If they touch it's too big.

>> No.17634772
File: 379 KB, 977x925, Carmina PTB Snuff Suede Sun.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
17634772

>>17633463
>>17633459
I took a photo of them in direct sunlight today.

Is it snuff? Maybe, but it's definitely darker than what I expected.

Compare for example to these
>>17633814
>>17633822

>> No.17634816
File: 3.07 MB, 1200x1200, 1666623495655894.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
17634816

>>17634772
almost certain they gave u polo suede

>> No.17634817
File: 570 KB, 500x750, polo.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
17634817

>> No.17634831

lol @ the absolute state of Carmina MTOs

>> No.17634833
File: 275 KB, 722x1062, Carmina PTB Snuff Suede 3.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
17634833

>>17634817
Thing is they have no red IRL and polo always has some red in it

I don't know what they gave me, it's not light enough to be brown or hummus, it's not light enough to be snuff, it's not red enough to be polo, it's definitely not tobacco (I have tobacco suede). Maybe just a darker batch from CF Stead

>> No.17634898

>>17634765
Too small gap can be corrected with a tongue pad or an insole. But there's no correction for a gap that's too wide.

>> No.17634901

>>17634833
crimson suede?

>> No.17634970

>>17634831
carmina maybe to order desu

>> No.17635004
File: 610 KB, 640x480, 1653909328109835.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
17635004

do you think this is worth it?

>> No.17635006

>>17635004
what the fuck

>> No.17635009

>>17635004
brass eyelets and a lug sole would so a lot for this
make it look like a beater and then the stamp is kinda cool

>> No.17635015
File: 80 KB, 449x543, 1663562045826481.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
17635015

>>17635004
>hey lets take everything that makes shell so special and appealing and turn it inside out

>> No.17635037
File: 2.26 MB, 985x981, Blkbrd.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
17635037

>buy Indian shoes
>made from the finest Indians
>two weeks later they look like this
Who would have thought that the secrets of calfskin would be a mystery to the country that made slaughtering cows illegal.

>> No.17635049

>>17634772
I've seen english brands that've called this "snuff".
I mean technically actual snuff is that colour. They're still really nice.

>> No.17635056

>>17635037
Not all part of India forbid cow slaughtering.

>> No.17635063

>>17635037
>calfskin? i thought you said casteskin

>> No.17635079

>>17632828
Tell me how long do fracaps last ?
Are they just pretty or also durable ?

>> No.17635319

>>17635079
more like fracrap

>> No.17635465
File: 65 KB, 640x860, 1676777719246900.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
17635465

cap toe or not for a pair of black oxfords? they need to perform admirably with a black suit for very formal events but not be too formal for office wear in navy and charcoal trousers.

>> No.17635487

>>17634970
carmina modify the order

>> No.17635490
File: 1.54 MB, 2672x1196, file.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
17635490

Thoughts on the C&J Snowdon?

>> No.17635542

>>17635490
perfect except for the heel

>> No.17635600

>>17635465
Cap toe is what I went with for maximum versatility. When I'm dressing it up I like using a wax-based polish on just the toe for a mirror shine while using a less reflective but more resilient to flexing polish on the rest of the shoe.

>> No.17635625

>>17635490
The zug snowdon gmto was more interesting than the rtw version. Hoping there is enough interest for another one.

>> No.17635631

>>17635079
they are well made and you can resole them.

>> No.17635647

>>17627000
Is there any standardization on sizing of widths? I saw one company call EE a “wide” and EEEE an “extra wide”. While another called an E a “wide” and an EE a “extra wide”. Should I trust the “E”’s or the words “wide”/“extra wide”?

>> No.17635658

>>17635647
US brands will use brannock width with D being standard and E+ being wider. UK and many EU brands will use either E or F as standard width with G or H being wider.

>> No.17635670

>>17635658
So should I follow the E sizing or the terms “wide” vs “extra wide”?

>> No.17635672

>>17635670
If they are not retarded EEEE is wider than EE.

>> No.17635673

>>17635672
although it should be noted that the EE boot can still be wider than the 4E boot, the last matters more here.

>> No.17635674

>>17635647
lasts are more important than letters, a reputable bootmaker will have a page describing their lasts

>> No.17635837
File: 122 KB, 128x121, 1658159384264463.gif [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
17635837

>wear new boots outside for 5min
>feet go numb
I think I may stick with sneakers lads...

>> No.17635847

>>17635837
C&J 378 or trubalance last + vibram gumlite sole, better sneaker experience than you could wish for.

>> No.17635926

>>17635837
buy the right size?

>> No.17636138
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17636138

>>17635926
>buy the right size?

>> No.17636173
File: 125 KB, 1000x1133, engineer.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
17636173

thoughts on short engineer boots?
I'd think they are a bit more practical, but on the other hand maybe if I want engineer boots I should go with the real deal.

>> No.17636174
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17636174

>>17635837
>>feet go numb

>> No.17636177

>>17635490
I can't find anything not to like about it.
Even the integrated pull tab is perfect. I asked for this when I did my Bonafe MTO.

>> No.17636179

>>17635647
No.

For example Carmina's "EEE" just means one size wider than the normal version.
So for example Rain is normal width so Rain EEE is one size wider than that, while Detroit is wide by default and Detroit EEE is for ducks.

Viberg's E is one size wider than normal yet the 2030 last on E is narrow.

TLB is a relatively new company so their lasts were designed in the 2010's so their sizes are normal, F, G, H etc are all what you would expect (normal, wide, bloated) but with a narrow heel.
Alden has good lasts but their heels are always two sizes more narrow than the front. So E width means E at the front and F in the back or something. It fits good.

>> No.17636184
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17636184

>>17635647

>> No.17636186

>>17636184
this isn't accurate either because all northampton makers use E as the standard width instead of F.

>> No.17636192

>>17636179
Ok so I should probably just trust the “wide” option? It’s still a crap shoot but I guess i’ll go for that.

>> No.17636193

>>17636192
Well are your feet wide?
It's different for every brand but yeah

>> No.17636198

>>17636184
Yea this isn’t accurate. A US manufacturer is calling EE “extra wide” and another calls their EE just a “wide”.

>> No.17636201

>>17636192
what brand are you looking at

>> No.17636206

>>17636193
Yea they are. Most wide options fit me.
>>17636201
Rancourt. They call their wide mocs E and the EE extra wide. Wasn’t sure which to get. I have another pair of mocs from a different brand that are EE but they called them just wide and had no other options for extra wide.

>> No.17636347

https://www.grantstoneshoes.com/collections/final-sale/products/b-grades

>> No.17636367

Carmina has a "suede week" for the next few hours

Some past GMTOs on suede are enabled at normal price with free shoetrees
https://www.carminashoemaker.com/mto-shoes

I bought my Suede boots from an event like this last year, but it was much cheaper back then (like 430€). Inflation I guess.

>> No.17636459

>took my Vibergs to the local boot shop to clean them up
>still damp when I picked them up, some dark spots
Hope it dries because otherwise they did a great job.

>> No.17636477
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17636477

>>17636459
>still damp

>> No.17636478

>>17636477
They did the work first thing this morning. Haven’t you ever conditioned your boots? They get damp.

>> No.17636479
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17636479

> Haven’t you ever conditioned your boots? They get damp.
what the fuck dude

>> No.17636481

>t. has never once applied leather conditioner because only buys chinkshit to throw away after a year

>> No.17636495

water is the best conditioner after all

>> No.17636502

>>17635673
Explains why I wear EEEE in White’s and nobody else.

>> No.17636504

Do any of you own a pair of Redbacks?

>> No.17636526
File: 103 KB, 1067x1200, 1684964510545.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
17636526

>>17635490
SEX!
Division road has some custom runs of this boot that i prefer personally, but it's obviously a very different look
https://divisionroadinc.com/collections/crockett-jones/products/crockett-jones-ross-378-vibram-carrarmato-black-roughout-suede

>> No.17636532
File: 93 KB, 1067x1200, 1684964617203.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
17636532

>>17636526
These ones too
https://divisionroadinc.com/collections/crockett-jones/products/crockett-jones-ross-378-vibram-carrarmato-dark-brown-roughout-suede

>> No.17636539

>>17636526
Hate the padded collar meme

>> No.17636571
File: 32 KB, 651x319, chrome_2023-05-24_18-15-02.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
17636571

mad ?

>> No.17636586

>>17636571
>10.5c
no I do not envy matchstick feet

>> No.17636596

>>17635837
You're supposed to break in the boots first.

>> No.17636665
File: 1.83 MB, 1000x1000, 1665936573559433.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
17636665

>> No.17636695

>>17634473
Varusteleka has reproductions

>> No.17636813
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17636813

>> No.17636930

NEW
>>17636929
>>17636929
>>17636929

NEW
>>17636929
>>17636929
>>17636929