/diy/ - Do It Yourself

[Anonymous No.1407417]

What are the advantages to rewiring to add equipment grounding conductors (ground wires) to outlets?

Right now I have the older 2-prong line/neutral outlets. I want to add GFCI and AFCI protection. I know there are pretty simple and easy ways to do that, but the simple/easy ways leave the outlets without a ground conductor. I've read a decent amount and the only reasons I've found for why GFCI outlets even have a ground conductor at all are

>1. Safety redundancy -- if the GFCI mechanism fails and I don't catch it, the ground conductor is there as a backup
>2. Electronics that are linked together, like computer and speaker amp in a home theater, need to share the same ground to prevent ground loops (I don't really understand this because they don't have ground and the only connection they have to a "ground" is where their neutral wire is bonded to ground at the breaker box)

Someone else said the ground conductor also provides a path for current to flow in case a chassis gets energized, whereas a GFCI wouldn't do anything in that situation until current actually flowed from the chassis into a person, so I guess the difference is you would feel a slight shock before the GFCI kicked in vs. with a ground conductor you would feel nothing?

[Anonymous No.1407425]

>>1407417
>need to share the same ground to prevent ground loops

I predict a never ending argument based on this nonsense.

[Anonymous No.1407430]

>>1407417
all depends on what it is, you could feel a shock, you might not. all depends on what failed and how.

if it was me, i would just add a ground to every outlet in the house.

you can still get electrocuted when all receptacles are grounded too in certian circumstances. but like water electricity takes the least path of resistance. gound is as low of a resistance as you can get which is why you can stick weld under water and not die (you get trace, but that generally doesn't kill you).

[Anonymous No.1407435]

>>1407430
>if it was me, i would just add a ground to every outlet in the house.

you make it sound easy, anon.

[Anonymous No.1407445]

>>1407430
>all depends on what it is
Any specifics?

>>1407430
>just add a ground to every outlet
The only way to do that to code is to rewire the house. Not sure I'm up to that unless the benefits are worth it, which is why I'm researching the benefits of having a grounding conductor in GFCI outlets.

[Anonymous No.1407449]

>>1407435
didn't say it was easy, but its safer and if it would probably lower your fire insurance.

i don't know the codes where you live. where i live you can do the work yourself as long as it passes inspection. outdated methods are grandfathered in until they are altered in anyway, then they have to meet code. if i redid my bathroom or kitchen i would have to replace the receptacles with GFI

all GFI does is detect current flowing to ground and then trip. with just a ground you short something out so that it draws more current than the breaker/fuse (something tells me you still have fuses) is rated for and that trips. GFI is milliamps. just ground is 15 amps, hopefully someone didn't stick a 20 amp fuse in there because the 15 amp fuse kept blowing.

i grew up in a house where only half the outlets were grounded with only a 40 amp service with a fuse panel. if your lucky you'll actually find insulated wire instead of bare aluminum wire with ceramic insulators.

[Anonymous No.1407452]

>>1407445
having something fail and that goes to ground, you touch something grounded and your ground at the entrence is corroded, you can get knocked on your ass because you became the least path of resistance.

if your just adding a ground all you need is 50 metal coat hangers and poke it through insulation and snake the wire through. if your house has insulation besides tar paper. and you probably don't have any fire stops either, so getting that ground to another floor just became easier.

old houses are money pits, but on the plus side, they have existed this long without burning down, so whats in them isn't a cob job just waiting to burst into flames.

just another reasons to do it right, 100 plus year old dry wood catches quick and burns hot

[Anonymous No.1407456]

Why not just zero the 2 outlets and be done with it?

[Anonymous No.1407494]

>>1407425
No argument necessary, equipment connected where both groun sides ground the connector shield AND are grounded themselves form a ground loop. Disconnecting 'floating' ground on either or both appliance removes the loop but is clearly dangerous if the appliance is wired to require a ground. The proper way is where the appliance themselves decouple the inputs/outputs.

>>1407417
If there isn't any ground there is nowhere for the imbalance current to go during a fault.The question is then, it's that even a fault at all? Interesting question OP have current imbalance devices rendered grounds obsolete? Well yeah i guess so. Hmmmmm.

[Anonymous No.1407584]

>>1407494
>have current imbalance devices rendered grounds obsolete
This is what I see people arguing about on home inspection forums and the like. I don't understand enough about electricity and wiring to know whether the ground conductor actually serves a meaningful role in a GFCI outlet.

[Anonymous No.1407592]

>>1407584
Gfci works by measuring the current out through line and current return through neutral. In theory we can apply kirchoffs current laws and say they should be the same, unless current has escaped in which case there is a problem and protective action,tripping,occurs to protect you,in case the current is escaping via you!
In normal countries this current imbalance trip is in the main panel. For some reason America insist on putting sockets with this function instead. Gfci only protects things downstream, the wiring between the panel and socket isn't protected by the gfci.

[Anonymous No.1407593]

>>1407584
Yep.
GFCI reacts to an imbalance between current in and current out of the device that is plugged in. Any imbalance (outside spec) and the GFCI trips.
The ground isn't even a part of the GFCI detection circuit. It is there for protecting equipment that needs it. (I'm talking U.S. here) The ground wire itself eventually connects to the white wires (Neutral) at the main load center (breaker box).
Code is the outlet must be marked as
"No Equipment Ground"

[Anonymous No.1407627]

>>1407592
Why does the wiring between the panel and outlet need to be protected by GFCI? Serious question.

[Anonymous No.1407633]

>>1407445
>The only way to do that to code is to rewire the house. Not sure I'm up to that unless the benefits are worth it, which is why I'm researching the benefits of having a grounding conductor in GFCI outlets.

The real benefit is if you ever decide to sell the house in the future, you're going to have to pony up the dough to do it anyway. It's hard to sell a house that has outdated wiring. A soccer mom hears old wiring and thinks that her kids are going to die in an electrical fire within 20 minutes of moving into the house.

I ended up getting 9k off on my house during negotiations because it had knob and tube. Did all the work myself and it cost me about $500 to rewire because it's an unfinished basement and everything was easy to get to. Upstairs only had like 3 outlets in in because the house is old so that was a little more work but everything was fairly easy due to the kneewalls. I did end up having to pay an electrician $500 to come move the meter socket outside though. Power company refused to turn off the power unless it was a contractor doing the work despite having no documentation that stated that anywhere.

[Anonymous No.1407636]

>>1407592
>In normal countries this current imbalance trip is in the main panel. For some reason America insist on putting sockets with this function instead.

We have both in the US. GFCI breakers are a very common thing and can be found in any hardware store. The main reason GFCI outlets are so common is that they're easy and relatively cheap safety retrofits. The other reason is that if they are tripped, you don't have to go to the basement/garage/outside to reset them.

[Anonymous No.1407650]

>>1407449
i thot gfi detects the smol difference in currents between hot and neutral. if current is going to the ground thats not ideal but its ok? the real problem and thing gfi is checking for is if more current is going through the hot than the neutral. that means some current must be escaping through either a chassis or you.

[Anonymous No.1407659]

>>1407627
It's just cost.
GFCI breakers can protect multiple outlets.
The other reason is that GFCI outlets are sizable. In some old homes they use shallow boxes and a GFCI simply won't fit.

GFCI outlets can be daisychained so that the first GFCI powers the second one and also protects it.

[Anonymous No.1407662]

>>1407659
Right, but the post that I replied to seemed to imply that the wiring between the panel and "socket"(whatever they mean by that, I assume outlet) needs to be protected by a GFCI breaker. Sounds crazy to me, but maybe the British know something I don't.

[cunty No.1409295]

I can't believe foreigners are allowed electricity