Grounding an old apartment

[Anonymous No.888144]

My shitty third floor slumlord apartment has old knob and tube wiring in it. So it obviously has no grounds. I don't want to fuck up my computers, so I'm trying to ground an outlet in one room.

There is a cast iron fire escape just outside the window that is stuck directly into the earth. I drilled and attached a solid 12ga insulated earth wire to it, and ran it in a small hole I drilled in the window frame. I used this wire to ground a new GFCI outlet I installed. It all checks out electrically, and my computers work fine.. But is this safe long term? I've asked, the landlord will not rewire..

[Anonymous No.888147]

Closeup of the connection

[Anonymous No.888151]

>>888144
Check voltage between neutral and the ground there. If that's less than 5v ac/dc, then check ohms. Should be less than 25

[Anonymous No.888155]

>>888144
Half of the plugs in my old ass apartment are GFCI (the other half 2 prong ungrounded)
Im not sure how they are installed, I didnt do them.

I put a lot of money into my rig and had the same worries about it being safe.

I bought a UPS Backup from the local office supply store. Its just a battery for your desktop. If the mains power goes out the battery kicks in just like unplugging a laptop

It apparently is a surge protector and power conditioner meaning it can even out uneven dirty power from the mains.

~120$ for the UPS is about the same price as a replacement PSU if there was a bad surge. ( and a whole lot cheaper than blowing out the rest of my components)

I have had it close to two years now and the power has only went out 3-4 times, but the backup has worked flawlessly.
Highly recommend anyone get one.

[Anonymous No.888167]

>>888144
Just be ready that if anything goes wrong with the electrics or if there is a electrical fire in the apartment the landlord is going to blame you.

[Anonymous No.888173]

>>888167
Also, i have never had my computers connected to a grounded outlet and i have never had any problems with it.
Except for the fact that i get 120V zaps every time i touch bare metal on my computercase if i am resting my foot on the radiator.

[Anonymous No.888228]

Thanks diy. It seems to work fine so I'm just gonna go with it. I don't see how a small earth wire could possibly cause an electrical fire..
Unearthed mains should be against all electrical codes globally, this is unsafe bullshit I shouldn't have to deal with.

[Anonymous No.888248]

>>888228
>I don't see how a small earth wire could possibly cause an electrical fire..
It's not about what is possible, it's about what the landlord will try to pin the blame on you by claiming you fucked with the wiring if anything were to ever go wrong in the apartment.

Also if you have computers that are running grounded and others that are not, do not network them with cables or the non grounded ones will ground through the network cables and cause all sorts of weird problems with the network equipment.

[Anonymous No.888273]

>>888155
I'd go for this, and do nothing about the ground. Unless you can get an electrician to do it.

However if you do ground it, keep in mind you shouldn't have grounded and not grounded outlets near each other. If a not grounded device has a ground fault you can get a shock if you touch it's cabinet at the same time as a grounded cabinet (or a copper pipe).

>>888151
This is also good advice.

I don't quite see the reason why lack of ground can hurt the computer though? I mean if the neighbor has a ground fault you can get pretty high voltages through it, which could damage it instead of helping?

[Ant-man No.888286]

>>888248
What is this a 1988 token ring?
rj45 Ethernet is transformer isolated by standard.
--------------

1. Don't just say 'fuck it, it's good enough' It absolutely is not. You need to verify it is low resistance.
2. You are not an electrician.
3. You don't own this property.
4. The property owner didn't request any work, and certainly didn't authorize you, a not-electrician to do shit.
5. When this building burns down for any reason, you will have to pay to buy a new building, because it will be your fault for touching the electrical.

Also, your ground wire causes an electric fire when you have a ground fault in a device and it does not trip the breaker because you just attached it to a fucking hunk of metal and thought that was as good as main ground neutral, which even if your metal is connected to earth, that ain't fucking MGN.

You could get zapped by the device, and it will also dump current to earth the whole time it's plugged in because your ground might suck.

The difference between a 10' unbounded ground rod on one side of your house and the ground wire coming out of a proper socket could be 45kohm and 20volts easily.

Large metal structures in buildings are often grounded though, so that's why anon said to check voltage and check resistance if it's <25ohm, it's... reasonable, and shouldn't kill you, but it is almost assuredly against code and you will be fucked when the building burns down.

[Ant-man No.888289]

>>888228
>small earth wire
>12 gauge
>Small.
20 amps not enough for you to start a fire?

[Anonymous No.888293]

>>888286
>What is this a 1988 token ring?
Hey, the old school i used to go to had coaxial ethernet for some parts of the building up until 5 years ago.
One of my friends work there in maintenance and let me in to look at their wiring closet, i don't think anyone had upgraded any of the core network structure since the mid 90s.
They just put new parts of the network parallel to the old one, then bridged the networks at the router.

[Anonymous No.889098]

OP here.
Most UPS, or at least the three I own, do not function without a ground.
I checked the resistance, I got 11.5ohms. Seems fine to me. No voltage or current present measured by my multimeter on the ground line during use. I tested the GFCI with the built in test button and an external tester and it functions perfectly.

[Anonymous No.889298]

>>889098
You do know that if something electrical fails in a catastrophic way it will dump mains power to the fire escape?
That is if the cable haven't already caught on fire by then.

[Anonymous No.889300]

>>889098
>Most UPS, or at least the three I own, do not function without a ground

The old rip the plug out of the wall doesnt work?

[Anonymous No.889309]

In my opinion as a apprentice electrician you should risk the computer dying because you will be raped by the land owner in court if something happens. Say maybe a fire and for some reason all power hits your fire escape. Whats your plan? Grab electrified fire escape?? It will never be rewired cause its way go costly. Unless you buy the man a new building when yours burns.

[Anonymous No.889332]

>I don't want to fuck up my computers, so I'm trying to ground an outlet in one room.

Grounding one outlet in a room is a bad idea, you now have the risk of a malfunctioning device not connected to the grounded outlet grounding through you to the grounded one.

I have had all my computers so far run on non grounded (15+ years) without any problems.

[Anonymous No.889336]

>>889098
Mine works without a ground but a red warning light comes on.

[Anonymous No.889367]

I forgot that household current going to ground will wrap coils of lightning around whatever it passes through, instead of just clicking the breaker and killing that circuit in 1-150ms.

[Anonymous No.889372]

>>889367
220v through 40k ohms ain't tripping fucking diddly squat. go home HVAC faggot, you're drunk and don't know shit.

[Anonymous No.889374]

>>889372
Hadn't seen that op tested for a good path to ground already.

I'm back to my 'probably okay, but not up to code and you're going to burn the building down and be criminally liable' position.

The fire escape is bonded to the building MGN somewhere, that's why it's only 12 ohms. Metal structure in buildings usually is, but that connection can fail without any warning signs.

[Anonymous No.889495]

All I can imagine is everyone in the building trying to use the fire escape in a emergency and being shocked to death. We will see OP on global news for killing every person. They sentence him to over 9000 years with bubba the big horny homo as a cell mate. GOOD LUCK WITH BUBBA OP!

[Anonymous No.889615]

>>889495
Rofl there's only two other apartments and this escape is just for me. I'll be cautious of electricity in case of an emergency..

[Anonymous No.889632]

>>889495
>I forgot that household current going to ground will wrap coils of lightning around whatever it passes through, instead of just clicking the breaker and killing that circuit in 1-150ms.

[Anonymous No.889973]

>>889632
Yeah for real what the hell does that even mean. Is that like a /diy/ meme or what? I don't post here

[Anonymous No.891454]

Ground and grounded should go back to the same point, not some random fire escape. Do not change out receptacles in a place you are renting. if you want GFI protection buy a little 2 foot long cord with a GFI in it. I assume you have only an ungrounded and a grounded slot in your receptacle. I am not sure how legal it is to use a non-UL adapter. Good luck.

[Anonymous No.891464]

>>889367

You need to google characteristic trip curves and/or selective coordination.

So he has 11 ohms ground resistance, at 240 with a perfect ground fault he is still looking at about 21 amps, on a 20 amp breaker he is looking at multiple minutes before it trips.

Now factor in voltage drop from his shitty knob and tube wiring operating under 20 amps and he is may not every trip if he literally ties his hot into his 'ground'.

All this is before you consider you have no idea what kind of ocpd this ancient poorly wired house has.

This is why you not only call an electrician, you call one who actually works on this stuff.

[Anonymous No.891606]

You need to paint portion exposed to the weather or else it will corrode and break your ground connection. But if you put a gfi plug tester in the GFI that you're running off of this system and it says that it's working properly then I think it will work for you. It's crucial that the grounding path be low resistance, high ampacity. Use a larger grounding conductor and sand the portion of the window that it contacts paint it to protect it from the weather

[Anonymous No.891607]

>>888167
Good thing the landlord isn't the municipal fire inspector

[Anonymous No.891772]

>>888286
>>889298
>>889367
>>889495

GFCI will trip within 4ms. Grounding path is there just to allow the GFCI to do its job. Finding an adequate way to integrate GFCI's into ungrounded systems is a pretty standard approach to solving this kind of problem.

Besides, when we ground systems (buildings) the potential for the whole system to become energized is simply how it works. It's mitigated by the fast trip speeds but make no mistake, the large portions of the any steel framed building your in could be energized for a split second during a fault condition.

Also, I was the one that posted >>891606 you should use a thicker wire, a crimped on lug (can do with pliers no need for a special tool), and paint the portion of bare metal exposed to the elements with tremclad or similar. Also, you want a low impedance connection so carefully sand or make bare the portion of the metal under the screw head so the wire makes metal to metal contact. The more bare surface area, the lower the impedance.

I also posted >>891607

In the event of a fire the municipal fire authority has an investigator that will determine the cause of the fire. He has the final word on it.

FYI: I'm a journeyman electrician in western Canada.

[Anonymous No.892198]

>>888173
If you think that's bad I know of an instance of that happening whenever someone got into the shower. It was explained to me what was going on, but I can remember, something about messing up the ground to the pipe

[Anonymous No.892239]

>>888173

Wait, you're serious? I thought you were joking.

[Anonymous No.892748]

>>892239
If you have a non grounded outlet computer try it, ATX power supplies dump about half net voltage to ground.
Should get about 120v if you are on 240v but very low current.
Not sure how this compares on a power supply running on 120v.
Enough to make your fingers tingle but not much more.

[Anonymous No.892757]

>>891772
this^. Anon knows what hes talking about. Def larger wire (I recommend solid core, not stranded), connected to bare metal, be sure to paint once connection is complete. Depending on material of wire and fire escape, it could create a galvonic reaction, causing faster. corrosion.

>>892239
this >>892748 is correct. I have 8 PCs running on my home network (ya Im a geek). Two are in my basement on ungrounded outlets. Same with a microwave in my house in my "man cave". All these zap me if Im barefoot and touch the metal cabinets. Just dont try it standing in a metal bucket filled with water.

[Anonymous No.892758]

>>892748
didnt read whole post for my reply >>892757
Im in US on 120. The computers dont zap too bad, just feels "tingley". But the microwave....that fucker gives me a good poke if I bump it just right while its running. Touch the case with inside of your wrist...that should feel a little more substantial :D

[Anonymous No.892763]

>>892748
>>892757
>>892758

So, you're telling me that all atx psu's are in a constant state of ground fault? I don't think so. If it were, you wouldn't be able to use an ATX PSU on GFCI protected circuits, and I've never heard of that. I'm going to rig up a GFCI extension cord and test with my comp. Maybe it's an induced voltage from the coil in the PSU?

Anyways, you guys might not think much of what's going on, but you're playing with fire potential. Uncontrolled voltage can cause uncontrolled current, across gaps, which is called an arc, which start fires because of how hot they are. "Electrical arcs produce some of the highest temperatures known to occur on earth, up to 35,000°F (19,426°C). This is 4 times the temperature of the surface of the sun which is about 9000°F (4982°C)"

http://www.ctdol.state.ct.us/osha/Breakfast/Archives/02-18-14/Handouts/Distributed0218/ElectricalContractors/Arc%20Flash%20Fast%20Facts.pdf

If you can afford a bank of computers you should probably invest in a good battery backup as they also perform line conditioning. At the very very least you should get your shit GFCI protected. You can do this without changing your house wiring.

[Anonymous No.892764]

Forgot to say, small currents can kill the shit out of you. In fact, sometimes they're worse because they don't destroy cells and therefore conduct through you longer than a high voltage transmission line would because it would vaporize cells quickly and those cells would no longer provide a path.

http://hypertextbook.com/facts/2000/JackHsu.shtml

And for those of you that are thinking "It's never hurt me before", that's kind of like saying "I've never been saved by a seatbelt or I've never been in an accident driving after a few beers, so I don't need to worry about it now."

My point is that it is a real hazard and you should take it a little more seriously than some of you do now.

[Anonymous No.892770]

>>892763
Leakage through the Y caps.

[Anonymous No.892784]

>>892763
This is the best explanation that i found now.
http://www.epanorama.net/documents/pc/ungrounded_pc.html

I used to have a page saved that described it in more detail that i found when i first discovered this, but i can't find my old bookmark backups.

Lets just say i no longer leave my computers on or even connected to the outlet when i am not using them.
I also moved my computers away from the radiator so there is no chance of me touching both at the same time anymore.