Grand Theft Honey

[Anonymous No.735325]

I was cleaning the back of my property recently, and I stumbled upon a natural bee hive. Apparently I've been walking within a few feet of them for most of the year, without noticing them on the other side of the wall, so they don't act like they are an aggressive hive, they're just mellow bees filling the air. They seemed to have taken up residence in a mostly buried metal box. My first impulse was to get them to leave, but then I started to think about honey. Despite the recent cool weather, supposedly this is a good month for nectar in my area.

On to crazed idea. I was thinking about placing a box above the natural hive, to essentially extend their dwelling by another level. The plan being to later run off with whatever honey they deposit inside it. So, is this idea something that might actually work? I certainly don't want to harm them, but if they aren't paying rent, I will kinda need to evict them.

[Anonymous No.735381]

>>735325
I hope that when you say "kinda evict" you mean "call an actual beekeeper" and not "eradicate" because there is a serious bee shortage right now.

[Anonymous No.735383]

>>735381
Not planning to kill any. Unfortunately, there are no bee-keepers in the area to whisk them away. According to the internet, they can be encouraged to leave on their own by leaving out some small bit of smouldering wood or incense, near the hive for the day.

[Anonymous No.735396]

>>735383
Beekeepers generally pick this guys up for free. You'd be surprised how far they are willing to drive for a decent sized hive. They already have to drive all over the god damn place to deliver hives anyway so its not a big deal. As long as its under and hours drive or so they will probably still come out.

[Anonymous No.735409]

Probably better off joining an apiary forum.

Harvesting honey can be non destructive. The new box you make just needs to have removable racks, ask the apiary forum how to build this shit. You take the rack out, cut the caps off the comb with a wire/hot wire. Then stick it in a centrifuge. Saw it on how it's made.

[Anonymous No.735410]

Agree with other posters. Serious honey bee shortage. Hell, people even steal hives from apiaries because the queens are so valuable. I bet you can find a beekeeper that'll come take your bees for free. If it were me, I'd ask them to sweeten the deal by trading you a few jars of honey.

[Anonymous No.735411]

>>735410

rimshot.jpeg

[Anonymous No.735419]

fucking burn it all. your bees aren't going to save society, and they'll probably just annoy you / manifest destiny your ass eventually.

[Anonymous No.735420]

Do not disturb the hive if you are not absolutely sure of what you are doing, honey bees are in short of population as is and taking honey from them can be damaging. Get professional help or just leave them alone where they are. They will not bother you much

[Anonymous No.735427]

>>735419
I have never in my life been bothered by bees.
The problem is that like 80% of people can't tell wasps and bees apart.

Also, there are killer bees, but thankfully we don't get those here in europe.

[Anonymous No.735428]

>>735427
I always wondered how so many people people can't tell them apart. It's like mixing up an elephant and a giraffe.

[Anonymous No.735451]

>>735325
OP, you're choosing the absolute worst time to fuck with them.

You have no way of knowing how much honey they need to survive the winter.

If you were to steal their honey now, in December, you'd be a real piece of shit.

[Anonymous No.735494]

Amateur beekeeper here, try to catch a bee and make a decent pic so we can identify the species.

Also in this season they wont produce honey as you cna very well imagine.
Soonest honey harvest is in april-may. Watch for the different plants to blossom. There are Timelines on the internet for that stuff.

The system works as follows:
Bees are kept in several boxes, the top box is shed of with a grid where only worker bees can pass through. Because of thet the queen cant put eggs in the honey in top box.
At a certain point you just take out the frames from the top box and leave some full, fill the missing ones up with some empty ones.

The issue with stealing hone from bees is usually solved by feeding them with sugar at the end of the year september-early october, depending on the weather.

Can you post pics of the whole situaton?

[Anonymous No.735501]

>>735419
Bees polinate fruits and vegetables and you know, generally help create food for the planet.

[Anonymous No.735562]

Seems like it's kind of a sin against humanity to needlessly kill honey bees.

[Anonymous No.735663]

>>735325
>On to crazed idea. I was thinking about placing a box above the natural hive, to essentially extend their dwelling by another level. The plan being to later run off with whatever honey they deposit inside it.
short answer: this won't work because the honey cells are for laying eggs in. man-made beehives are built to prevent the queen from laying eggs in most of the honey cells

in the US at least, you don't need to pay someone to get rid of honey bees, you can just post an ad on craigslist about a bee swarm you want removed. people will come get it for free.

---------

a couple years back a swarm landed in my neighbor's yard. bees everywhere in the air for a few hours, like every 1 foot there was a bee flying by, bumping around on everything. it looked like there was MILLIONS of them. by 4:00 PM they had all collected in one tree.

people called a pest removal service, and they advised against killing and gave a phone number for a local beekeeper. he came out and set an empty hive on the ground with some bait scent stuff inside. over about 2 hours the bees all flew down to the ground and then walked up into the hive. Around 7PM he came back, wedged a couple pieces of wood in the entrance holes, put the hive in the back of his pickup truck and drove away.

He told the people that it looked like around 5000-6000 bees, and that was a typical swarm size (this was St Louis, USA location). Once they collected all in one place, they fit into a ball about as big as a soccer ball.

[Anonymous No.735876]

>>735325
I hope those are bees OP.
>>732546
Post pics like all the other anons have said.

[Anonymous No.735928]

>>735325
There is always a bee keeper's association of some sort. Just start googling and calling your local agricultural offices.

>>735381
>>735410
>Serious honey bee shortage
>serious bee shortage right now.

Not really. Oh they are dying out, but honey bees are actually not very crucial to anything with crop pollination. Native species of pollinating flies, wasps, and non-honey bees do the job just fine. The whole bee shortage thing in regard to pollination is a fallacy. Most staple crops use wind pollination and/or are self-pollinating to begin with. Which is why those plants are targets for systemic pesticides and GMO-based pesticides both of which kill or seriously harm anything that tries to eat from them that happens to be an insect (honey bees included).

You are actually better off building wasp and solitary bee houses if you want pollinating insects to help pollinate your crops. They are hardier, more bio-diverse, and if something goes wrong you don't have several hives drop dead suddenly.

>source: I'm a bee keeper for many years now.

>>735396
>>735410
>I bet you can find a beekeeper that'll come take your bees for free.
>Beekeepers generally pick this guys up for free.

Of course, a simple hive can be worth $200 easy. It is like letting a guy come to your house and steal gold nuggets off your table. I'd charge at least $50 for a finder's fee of a wild hive like that.

[Anonymous No.736039]

>>735928
>honey bees are actually not very crucial to anything with crop pollination

hahahahahahahahahahahahahaha. Keep killing off the species needed for some plants to survive and which certainly help others with the thought of "oh, it's not like they do much", when they do, faggot.

[Anonymous No.736048]

>>736039
Honey bees are only massive because humans made them so, because of their honey. It is like saying grass needs cows because there's so many cows that eat grass. I mean have you really ever been outside in a meadow before and looked around at what is visiting the flowers? I own 3 hives and I see more non-honey bees pollinators in my area than honey bees. It is the same everywhere I've traveled.

The people that have the largest problem with pollination are those farmers that create their own problem. They get rid of and destroy everything except for their crop plants and honeybees. They become so dependent on 1 pollinator for a monocrop that if it dies off their crop suffers immediately. Which is just fine because lack of bio-diversity always causes that. That is a no-brainer. Yet, they keep at it and look where it is getting them.

[Anonymous No.736049]

I'll just leave this here

[Anonymous No.736060]

>>735928
>>736048

The problem is that the natural pollinators suffer from the same environmental changes as the bees.
If your bees are doing bad, you can be pretty sure that most other species with a similar lifestyle are doing bad as well.
Remember that varroa and other parasites have alway been present with bees but they just cant cope with them anymore.
They always say "plant wild meadows and stuff to save the bees" but thats only because its easier to understand than explaining people the vast and diverse world of pollinating insects.

Source: beekeeper, studying entomology, interviewed wildlife ecology and landscape ecology specialists last week.

[Anonymous No.736062]

>>736060
>The problem is that the natural pollinators suffer from the same environmental changes as the bees.

Yes, if OP steals these bees' honey that will kill off everything else in the area by magic.

[Anonymous No.736064]

>>736062
That isn't what anyone was saying. Try reading the thread. There's only three relevant posts, it isn't that hard.

[Anonymous No.736065]

>>735427
I've never been stung by a wasp but have been stung multiple times by bees.

[Anonymous No.736066]

>>736062
Yes,anon. But, no.
Wasnt saying that, i only wanted to point out why people start to worry about pollination when the honey bees are doing bad.

[Anonymous No.736191]

>>736060
>The problem is that the natural pollinators suffer from the same environmental changes as the bees.

I don't see how that has to do with honey bees not being much of a thing in the first place. Most other types of pollinators don't congregate in hives that patrol an area several miles wide, like what honeybees do. When they die off it is in small isolated numbers. When a honey bee colony dies it leaves a vacuum. Non-honey bee pollinators are much more able to fill the ranks and close the vacuum left by other dead pollinators. Why? Because they range in bio-diversity. Even the second largest hiving pollinator (bumble bees) don't have hives even remotely close to the size of honeybee hives. Nor do they have the same competition range.

>If your bees are doing bad, you can be pretty sure that most other species with a similar lifestyle are doing bad as well.

1: bad bee hives = bad bee keeper. That is the only reason. If you live in an area where people use improper pesticides and it makes honey bees sick you either stop raising bees or you change people's habits in the area. Barring natural disaster (tornado/lightning strike), everything else is squarely the fault of the bee keeper.

2: There aren't any other species that have a similar lifestyle to honey bees. Even other hiving pollinators don't have the same lifestyle. It is honeybee's way of life that makes them so unique and so susceptible to disaster.

I will agree that any disruption in the local ecosystem that kills off things like honey bees is indicative of a much larger problem. But, honey bees can become extinct and it won't harm much of anything if anything at all. There has been a rather large pollination service industry based around insects that are not honey bees. Which are now starting to really get a boom in business due to lower numbers of honeybee bee keepers.

What I see the most of is bad education, farmer-bee keeper propaganda, and fear mongering.

[Anonymous No.736199]

Not all bees are honey bees OP.

If it's a small number, living underground, they're likely bumble bees. Post a picture so we can see what they look like. And leave them alone. Most bee species are chill.

[Anonymous No.736212]

>>736049
Hey its content I haven't seen before.

...oh wow

[Anonymous No.736223]

>>736212
>colony collapse syndrome is caused by one masochist from 4chan, driving around the country looking for hives, not monsanto
>no one will actually admit what's causing their collapse because it's too hideous to conprehend

[Anonymous No.736238]

>>736048

>bees don't matter
>bitching about bio-diversity

stop the hypocrisy and it'd be easier to think you're not a troll.

[Anonymous No.736244]

>>736049
Ive seen some shit on here, but this is a true 10/10

[Anonymous No.736253]

>>736238
If you don't understand what you are reading, don't post hate.

[Anonymous No.736259]

>>736253

>claiming to know something about a topic while knowing so little you actively contradict yourself and don't/can't clarify what you mean
>thinking some one calling you out on said stupidity is "hate"

Go back to dumblr or leddit if you want a hugbox, this is 4chan, faggot.

[Anonymous No.736261]

>>736191
>That is the only reason. If you live in an area where people use improper pesticides and it makes honey bees sick you either stop raising bees or you change people's habits in the area. Barring natural disaster (tornado/lightning strike), everything else is squarely the fault of the bee keeper.

"Hello Mr. Multi-national farming conglomerate, would you awfully mind not using organophosphate pesticides it does so bother my bees, you see."

Yeah man it'll totally work, and if it doesn't it's the bee keepers fault.

[Anonymous No.736297]

>>736261
Yes, it is still the bee keeper's fault. You wouldn't try to farm goats underwater would you? A novel yet extreme example, but if you live in an area that is rife with bee-killing, colony-collapsing pesticides, keeping bees isn't exactly the logical thing to do. If there is a problem, you deal with it, or you don't do it in the first place.

You really need to get away from the, "blame everyone else" mentality. If the problem is bigger than you are, get help or you don't do it in the first place.

I see the same mentality with people that raise livestock. They blame the predators or the diseases instead of researching and learning how to completely avoid such things in the first place.

[Imperiales Kanonenfutter. No.736313]

>>736297
i posted>>736060
Did you ever hear abot neonicotinoid pesticides? they are the reason why natural pollinators are doing bad. Bees agglomerate the same chemicals in their body and have the same symptoms. If an organism that gets fed on sugarwater from refined cane sugar does this bad, how bad will the rest of the insects do that have to live on poisoned material 24/7/52/356?

Also its not like the "shitty" beekeepers arent fighting Bayer over this for years. Resulting in a ban that nobody actually respects and the law just seems to be not inforced.
Wtf are people supposed to do? Live on the moon?
I dont know where you live but in our areas large farming lands are found around an inbetween housing areas, settlements, villages etc.

They just could stop spraying that shit and invest their billions in finding a better way. They got off the DDT eventually, now its time to get real about Neonicotinoids.

>A novel yet extreme example, but if you live in an area that is rife with bee-killing, colony-collapsing pesticides, keeping bees isn't exactly the logical thing to do. If there is a problem, you deal with it, or you don't do it in the first place.

Some people here are keeping bees since before varroa and Neonicotiniggers were even a subject..

[Anonymous No.736321]

>>736297
>You really need to get away from the, "blame everyone else" mentality.

You're right. Don't like what your neighbour is doing? Move continent, because they're all doing it! It's your fault if you don't!

You're a Lolbertarian, aren't you? Don't worry, you'll grow up.

[Anonymous No.736331]

>>736259
>>736238
Read his post again.

He's saying a single species is only important to humans because humans elevated them to that importance. Humans elevated them to that importance by cultivating and relying on them as pollinators for certain crops when other pollinators also exist.

Comparing the European Honey Bee to a cow is accurate; it's like worrying about what would eat all the grass if cows went extinct.

[Anonymous No.736334]

>>735428
More like a rhino and a elephant. That would be more realistic.

[Anonymous No.736335]

>>736321
Not him, but
>my daddy was a telegraph operator
>the government should ban phones because it's hurting us telegraph operators

[Anonymous No.736340]

>>736335
Please post some more of your amazing false equivalence insights.

[Anonymous No.736342]

To the numerous people saying call a beekeeper. I had bees in my attic. Called three different beekeepers they all couldn't be bother to get them because they were kinda hard to get to. You would need a tall ladder from outside the house or to go into my attic basically right where the nest was. Three bee keepers nobody could be bothered to try. Two didn't own ladders.

Eventually half the colony landed on a tree branch to divide the colony. Call beekeeper again. This motherF***, Can I cut the branch? Sure whatever. Cuts branch puts bees in 5 gallon bucket. I thought I was being nice but the beekeepers I ran into weren't exactly desperate for bees. At that point I could have cut the branch and put them in a hive. Then I have to spray and kill the remaining bees in the attic. It worked because the colony was about half size at that point. Honey did run down the outside of the bricks for awhile which was weird.

[Anonymous No.736350]

>>736340
Not my fault you refuse to cross your inbred bees. Enjoy your telegraph.

[Anonymous No.736387]

>>736342
yo OP said the hive was in his yard/property, i dont think it would be hard to get to

[Anonymous No.736389]

>>736313
>natural pollinators are doing bad.

You mean wild non-honeybee pollinators? I can't get passed all the search engine background noise of honeybee colony collapse and blog/facebook rants to find info about all the other pollinators. Got some sources I can read?

>Wtf are people supposed to do? Live on the moon?

If you can't move a mountain stop wanting to move the mountain. Stop honeybee keeping. Use other pollinators. Grow indoors. Rely less on insect-pollinated plants. Not the best answers. Instead you can yank the rug out from under the mountain. You can always take up some social propaganda/grass roots to help lobby your local government to help stop and crack down on the things that are causing these problems. This is the sort of thing you start with your neighbors, your local businesses then up to mayor, and right up the chain to whoever controls the top of the mountain.

Another way is to give the people who are doing this better options and better ideas.

I don't feed my bees corn syrup or sugar water like everyone else does. Mine have been quite fine. The only time I've lost a hive is when there's a deep freeze for very long (-15F for 3 weeks). I had to drizzle their own honey on each hive to make sure they were getting fed because they were so tightly packed. Fully my own fault. Now I have insulation covers I can slip over the hives to help hold enough heat so they can be more loosely packed and feed themselves.

>Some people here are keeping bees since before varroa and Neonicotiniggers were even a subject..

The worst pest problem I've ever had was a mouse that took up residence. Easy to correct with a cover guard.

>>736321
>It's your fault if you don't!

Which is correct. If you don't stand up for yourself and do something about your problem, you are part of the problem. It becomes your fault. You own it fully then.

[Anonymous No.736398]

>>735383
If you do that, do it in the Spring, when they will have half a chance of surviving the move. If you do it in Winter, they'll starve to death if they don't freeze first.

This assumes you are in the northern hemisphere. If you're an Aussie or Kiwi, it's not a bad time now.

[Anonymous No.736400]

>>736191
>bad bee hives = bad bee keeper. That is the only reason.
You are an idiot and a low quality troll.

[Anonymous No.736401]

>>736191
>honey bees can become extinct and it won't harm much of anything if anything at all.
I'm guessing you're a vegan who is upset about bee enslavement.

The good news is, you'll starve first.

[Anonymous No.736421]

>>736401
Not him, but if you take his statement as
>the cultivated European Honey Bee can become extinct and it won't harm much of anything if anything at all.
it's pretty spot on. There are other honey bees than the currently cultivated European Honey Bee, and of course you can hybridize as well.

Even if you parse it exactly as he wrote it, it's still mostly correct. There are other pollinators that can be used in place of honey bees and even other pollinators that can be cultivated by humans in a similar manner to honey bees, at least as far as the pollination aspect of their cultivation goes. If you did have every single colonial honey producing bee species go extinct tomorrow, it wouldn't be desirable but it wouldn't be a complete catastrophe. Bees are generalist pollinators and as such they share their niche with many other generalist nectar-eating species and they have few, if any, naturally-occurring plant species that rely solely upon them for pollination. As far as plants are concerned generalist pollinators are a bad investment because they consume nectar (or other attractant) but aren't as likely to visit a member of the same species or a member of the same species a distance away as a specialized pollinator.

[Anonymous No.736430]

hey guize, honey bees can go extinct because other pollinators will do their job, just look at japan... oh wait..

[Anonymous No.736431]

>>736389

>big business built on necessary genetic manipulation and other chemicals that destroy the local ecosystem they're introduced into
>you should just like do something about it and if you can't just move
>if you don't do anything about it you're the problem, not the person destroying said ecosystem

I'm been posting on 4chan for nearly a decade and have never seen such a backward thought process

[Anonymous No.736440]

>>736431
You too huh? I've been just just over 10 years. 11 come this January. /diy/ is a godsend.

>backward thought process

Yet, that is exactly what is needed. It isn't backward either. It is rational and logical. You're basically saying people shouldn't do anything about their problems. That's pretty illogical.

[Anonymous No.736444]

>>736440
>Killing someone's beehive
That sure sounds like aggression to me. The guy poisoning the bees should have to pay reparations. The beekeeper shouldn't have to take new unreasonable precautions and pay off his man in washington to keep poisoner from poisoning his bees. The guy poisoning the bees is a dick.

If bee guy lit a nice little bonfire and it accidentally burned down the poisoner's farm, is that okay? I don't think so. I'm pretty sure he'd have to buy the guy a new farm.

[Anonymous No.736451]

>>736430
>just look at japan... oh wait..
What?

[Anonymous No.736458]

>>736430
>the european honey bee is an integral part of the north american ecosystem

[Anonymous No.736459]

>get a warning for pointing out 4chan isn't a hugbox

So did you give the other posters warnings for off topic posts or just me? If just me, quite being a hypocrite.

>>736440
>You're basically saying people shouldn't do anything about their problems.

Incorrect. There are more than a few people calling you a retard. I was just pointing out how retarded your statements were when applied to this situation. Furthermore, the others have not said that either and have already pointed out how the bee keeper community, in general, has been attempting to fight this systematic destruction of the local ecosystem. Arguing for it is what's illogical.

>>736451

Japan has so many issues with their fucked ecosystem that they have to pollinate plants by hand in areas.

[Anonymous No.736462]

>>736430
>hey guize, honey bees can go extinct because other pollinators will do their job, just look at japan... oh wait..
>>736459
>Japan has so many issues with their fucked ecosystem that they have to pollinate plants by hand in areas.

They pollinate introduced species by hand because there is a shortage of european honey bees to pollinate the introduced species, some of which were not even originally from the same continent as the plant species they pollinate. The way you are presenting this fact is misleading.

There's also a couple of ultra-fancy orchards and ornamental nurseries that do the same thing but for entirely different reasons, but that's beside the point.

[Anonymous No.736467]

>>736462

And where were those plants introduced from that require said pollination because local pollinators (like wasps, bees, flies, etc.) don't/won't work?

[Anonymous No.736470]

>>736467
http://www.sott.net/article/184099-Japanese-fruit-farmers-stung-badly-by-bee-shortage

>melons
Article doesn't specify which exact type but all melons originated in Africa and SW Asia anyhow.

>watermelons
Africa

>cherries (specifically sweet cherry)
"Europe, Anatolia, Maghreb, and western Asia, from the British Isles south to Morocco and Tunisia, north to the Trondheimsfjord region in Norway and east to the Caucasus and northern Iran, with a small disjunct population in the western Himalaya"

>strawberries
Hybrid between wild species originating in eastern North America and Chile

>apples
Central Asia

Those are all the plants mentioned specifically in that one article. None of them are native to Japan or even originate anywhere close to Japan. Only one of the crops was originally found on the same continent as the European Honey Bee.

Feel free to find another article or source if you don't like this one.

[Anonymous No.736471]

>>736470

And their lack of honey bees is an issue and all the other pollinators they have (which are the same/similar to the rest of the world) don't/won't work, what makes you think those other pollinators will work elsewhere in the world when surprise surprise, they rely on honey bees.

Note: The question was rhetorical as looking as close as the mid to western USA will show the issues that come about when honey bees are killed.

>>736444

Funny how that works isn't it, when big business does it "for progress!" shills always pop up to defend it in whatever way possible. But an individual? Fuck'em.

[Anonymous No.736473]

>>736471
>And their lack of honey bees is an issue and all the other pollinators they have (which are the same/similar to the rest of the world) don't/won't work
From the article:
>Though bumblebees and Japanese honeybees are also used for pollination, imported Western honeybees represent the main workforce for the task.
They do use other pollinators, one of which is imported. The other pollinators are not suffering the deaths that the European honeybees are. They just don't deploy them in ample numbers to compensate for the lack of European honeybees.

>what makes you think those other pollinators will work elsewhere in the world when surprise surprise, they rely on honey bees.
I don't understand what you are asking. If you are asking why people elsewhere around the world don't use pollinators from Japan it's because they have no need to, and ones from japan are not well suited to climates outside of Japan. If you're asking how those crops fare outside of Japan, all of them can be pollinated by species other than European honeybees and all of them existed just fine in the wild without European honeybees.

>Note: The question was rhetorical as looking as close as the mid to western USA will show the issues that come about when honey bees are killed.

What exactly happens? I can only find issues related to cultivation and deployment of European honeybees as pollinators of cultivated crops.

[Anonymous No.736476]

>>736471
Also let me just add
>(which are the same/similar to the rest of the world)
No. This is how I know you have zero background in biology of any kind.

[Anonymous No.736478]

>>736473

To answer the last part first. Food prices go up because the plants aren't getting pollinated. Many middle/western USA farms try to get eastern bee keepers to lend/lease their hives for the growing season because their ecology is fucked.

To address the rest; I'm frankly tired of going in circles with you. If other pollinators could take their place they would. They can't and haven't which is why hand pollination, borrowing hives, etc. all happens. Destroying a persons property, regardless of intent is wrong and should be punished as outlined in >>736444
. You have continually advocated that the extermination of a species vital to ecologies across the world is no big deal and blamed the victims of "big business" for the problems said business brings. You're a troll, shill, idiot, or some combination of all.

[Anonymous No.736480]

>>736471
Also let me go ahead and clarify
I'm >>736331
>>736421
>>736462
>>736473
>>736476
I actually agree with you (and other posters, assuming I'm attributing posts correctly) that use of neonicotinoids should be severely restricted in usage, and possibly banned pending further research.

However, the honeybee camp has virtually ignored all other reasons for colony collapse disorder to the exclusion of those pesticides and staunchly refuses to either cross existing honeybees with african honeybees (even though Brazil has had great success with this) or take pains to at least limit genetic bottlenecking within populations. They also refuse to entertain the idea of cultivating any one of the many possible generalist pollinators in the capacity that honeybees are cultivated in their stead.

What I find really grating is the bizarre insistence that the death of European honeybees means total collapse of the North American ecosystem when they aren't even native to the continent to begin with.

Granted this is also part of a larger issue with agriculture and domestication in general, and not restricted to honeybees.

[Anonymous No.736485]

>>736480
>cross existing honeybees with african honeybees

And thinking this is a good idea is how I know you have zero background in biology of any kind.

Honey bees do more than just pollinate and have a multitude of reasons for being the primary choice for kept pollinators. But the point remains that you show complete disregard for ecology, personal property, and a 180* skewed sense of responsibility as has been outline by many different posters throughout this thread. Just stop.

[Anonymous No.736488]

>>736478
>To answer the last part first. Food prices go up because the plants aren't getting pollinated. Many middle/western USA farms try to get eastern bee keepers to lend/lease their hives for the growing season because their ecology is fucked.

That isn't an "ecology" when it's an issue restricted to a single cultivated species. It's unfortunate what is happening to families but multiple apiculture practices need to be addressed in order to solve this, outlined very in >>736480. Some of the things that need to be changed do not directly deal with honeybees, and require not only changes in the practices of farmers but also federal law regarding farming and incentives to change since many farmers only adopt practices because of such incentives for doing so (and disincentives for not doing so.)

>To address the rest; I'm frankly tired of going in circles with you.
see>>736480

I'm not the poster you think I am.

>If other pollinators could take their place they would. They can't and haven't which is why hand pollination, borrowing hives, etc. all happens.

No, they would not. European honeybees, come time for them to pollinate crops, are deployed in artificially high densities in regions in which they could not survive year-round in such density without assistance from humans. The reason why other pollinators have not taken their place is the same as the reason why wild hives of European honeybees in the US are not sufficient to pollinate crops. Any replacement pollinator would need to be cultivated at the same scale as the honeybees are, or at the absolute minimum attracted/lured to areas where crops are grown.

They would require human manipulation and support. Various pollinator species of the meadows will not swoop down en masse to fields and begin pollinating all our crops without it.

None of the rest of your post applies to me.

[Anonymous No.736499]

>>736485
>>cross existing honeybees with african honeybees
>And thinking this is a good idea is how I know you have zero background in biology of any kind.

I can take a picture of my degree if you want. You could also look into the multiple ongoing studies involving African honeybees and European-African honeybee crosses. You could even look at the existing successful cultivation of such crosses in Brazil.

>Honey bees do more than just pollinate and have a multitude of reasons for being the primary choice for kept pollinators.

Yes. None of which crosses do not possess. The largest issues are increased aggressiveness and less resilience to cold, both of which can be accounted for by apiculture practice.

>But the point remains that you show complete disregard for ecology, personal property, and a 180* skewed sense of responsibility as has been outline by many different posters throughout this thread. Just stop.

None of this applies to me. I am not the poster you seem to think I am.

Please address my points instead of picking a single line out of my posts and asserting that I said something earlier that I didn't if you're going to continue arguing.

[Anonymous No.736500]

>>736488
>are deployed in artificially high densities in regions in which they could not survive year-round in such density without assistance from humans.

Incorrect. They're "deployed" as you put it because they keep getting killed off by the insecticides and a few other things prevalent in those areas; the big one being the insecticides which kill not only the bees but other pollinators as well. Again, the ecology is fucked.

I don't care what poster you are when you're spouting more of the same and even introducing new idiotic gems like crossbreeding european with african honey bees.

The fact that you think this can be solved with incentives is also very telling since incentives from the govt. is what pushed most farmers to disregard even the most basic farming tenants such as crop rotation and which pushed them to use the very things that kill their ecology and destroy their fields in mere years.

[Anonymous No.736506]

>>736500
>Incorrect. They're "deployed" as you put it because they keep getting killed off by the insecticides and a few other things prevalent in those areas; the big one being the insecticides which kill not only the bees but other pollinators as well. Again, the ecology is fucked.

Where are bees kept when it's not time to pollinate crops? It isn't where they are put when it's time for pollination. And even so, they exist in greater densities than would be possibly without human intervention.

>I don't care what poster you are when you're spouting more of the same

Except I never once advocated for neonicotinoids or demonstrated " a 180* skewed sense of responsibility." Thank you for assuming such, though.

>and even introducing new idiotic gems like crossbreeding european with african honey bees.

Yes. It's so idiotic that there are ongoing studies regarding it and an entire country that cultivates them almost exclusively.

>The fact that you think this can be solved with incentives is also very telling since incentives from the govt. is what pushed most farmers to disregard even the most basic farming tenants such as crop rotation and which pushed them to use the very things that kill their ecology and destroy their fields in mere years.

That is exactly what my post said. I don't know how you parsed my post and managed to get the exact opposite.

"Some of the things that need to be changed do not directly deal with honeybees, and require not only changes in the practices of farmers but also federal law regarding farming and incentives to change since many farmers only adopt practices because of such incentives for doing so (and disincentives for not doing so.)"

Meaning that the incentives which encouraged bad practice need to be evaluated and changed. And the bad practices were only adopted by farmers because of incentives for doing so.

[Anonymous No.736513]

>>736500
>Incorrect. They're "deployed" as you put it because they keep getting killed off by the insecticides and a few other things prevalent in those areas; the big one being the insecticides which kill not only the bees but other pollinators as well. Again, the ecology is fucked.

Also European honeybees have been moved and rented/leased out to farmers since well before the current crisis. It's common practice.

[Anonymous No.736519]

>>736513
>>736506

>can't survive without human help
>survive just fine in freezing winters and hot summers
>they don't matter/use something else when someone else comes along and destroys your property
>we need to stop back practices! just not those I agree with
>claims to be a different poster but makes all the same arguments
>thinks hybridization is a good thing because a shithole 3rd world country does it despite the huge issues it's caused in the south eastern USA including but not limited to many deaths because of their highly aggressive behavior and destruction of less aggressive local species which makes them a menace
>doesn't see how his own arguments are hypocritical or in direct conflict with each other despite it being pointed out several times by different posters

[Anonymous No.736551]

>>736431
>I'm been posting on 4chan for nearly a decade and have never seen such a backward thought process

I'm fairly sure he's a Lolbertarian, so it doesn't need to be logical. Just ignore him, he'll grow up.

[Anonymous No.736552]

>>736480
>the honeybee camp has virtually ignored all other reasons for colony collapse disorder

There have been thousands of studies over the past decade. Why not look for yourself: http://scholar.google.co.uk/scholar?scisbd=1&q=%22colony+collapse+disorder%22&hl=en&as_sdt=1,5&as_vis=1

Here's a good summary of the current theories: https://ddd.uab.cat/pub/tfg/2014/119612/TFG_isisbarocamarasa.pdf

If you think somehow that scientists have "ignored" other possible factors your either an idiot, or you work for one of the companies producing neonicotinoids and have a vested interested in deflecting blame. Either way it sure would be nice if you knew what you were talking about before you start waving your dick around.

[Anonymous No.736554]

In the US isn't there tax benefits for having a bee hive on your property?

[Anonymous No.736595]

>>736223
I haven't laughed so hard at one comment for a while. 10/10

Also on a serious note its pesticides etc but the biggest problem bees have is mobile phone masts. They mess up their internal navigation systems and can't find their way back to the hive.

[Anonymous No.736600]

>>735663

Fellow St Louisfag here

Do you know of any local beekeepers that have good honey for cheapish prices I've been looking for one for years

[Imperiales Kanonenfutter. No.736658]

>>736389
i just want to say that i read your post just now and i could provide only anecdotal sources from my talks with our entomologists team at the university, they are working on these subjects but i dont know what they published so far. Use google scholar in general for looking up such stuff, the internet is full with propaganda of every kind.

I also let my bees keep the majority of their honey, i dont take 30 kg from every hive like i'm the fucking tax collector ;)

So you would agree with me that IF certain pesticides caused provable damage in pollinator populations there had to be legal intervention, even if Big Pharma cried?

I understand what you are saying about personal initiative though, i just dont like the fact that there are established businesses and communities who get fucked over by some international corporation popping up and causing damage while lying to everbodies face.
Its not compatible with my understanding of democracy.

Although i observe that often people arent able to adapt to changing circumstances and then cry because natural selection fucks them over.
Thats not how to be the fittest and survive.

[Anonymous No.736665]

In time, science will engineer and patent a pesticide-resistant honeybee, and of course expect royalty payments from all bee keepers that come into contact with it.

[Anonymous No.736692]

>77posts / 4 / 35posters / 1
>45% samefag ratio, down from 80% ratio

Well ,this thread turned into a big as hell cluster fuck of shilly propaganda, IP resets, and fake new posters.

I'm glad there are at least 2 people ITT that actually want to talk about this stuff and actually make some sense. The rest seem to be either ignorant broscience people, trolls, shills or all 3.

I have a few hives. I know that if honey bees are wiped out, not much will change. I also know that if ALL pollinators are wiped out a good bit will change, but most of the world runs on wind pollinated/self-pollinated plants so it'd only be a rough ride for a little while. If you want to change this, you have to get everyone to change the corporations that are doing this and you do that by boycotting them and getting everyone else to boycott them until they change.

>>736658
>Its not compatible with my understanding of democracy.

That's because that is a totally fabricated illusion. Corporations rule the world. They have for a very long time.

[Imperiales Kanonenfutter. No.736710]

>>736692
and during that very long time we managed to make tiny little achievements that in sum constitute the glorious fact that some king cant come to your house whenever he wants and fuck your wife while decapitating your children.

So i kinda like that illusion and think its important it stays alive.

[Anonymous No.736712]

What the fuck are you people talking about "I certainly don't want to harm them", "Harvesting honey can be non destructive" and shit like that, you think bees make honey for fun?

[Anonymous No.736718]

>>736712
They make honey out of instinct. When they have enough to live on, then the surplus they create is wasted. The amount they need to survive is dependant on the population of the nest, and the population of the nest is limited by the internal size of the nest.

[Anonymous No.736745]

>>736519
>>can't survive without human help
>>survive just fine in freezing winters and hot summers

Reading comprehension. I said that they require human assistance to exist in the densities necessary for pollination of modern large scale farming cultivated crops when you asserted that
>If other pollinators could take their place they would.
which is asinine, because it assumes that wild pollinating species will magically pollinate all commercial crops without human intervention of any fucking sort, and if they don't, then they can't.
Do wild bees colonies exist in the same density that cultivated bee colonies do? No? THAT was the point that I was making.

>>they don't matter/use something else when someone else comes along and destroys your property

These are not the same arguments that you're lumping together. One is arguing against the scaremongering that a crisis for European honeybees means a crisis for THE ENTIRE NORTH AMERICAN ECOLOGY!!!11 and against the notion that European honeybees are the only pollinator that can pollinate any plant, ever.

The other is asinine and I. AM. NOT. THE. POSTER. THAT. POSTED. IT.

>>we need to stop back practices! just not those I agree with

Such as?

>>claims to be a different poster but makes all the same arguments

I. AM. NOT. THAT. POSTER. Could you actually argue with me instead of asserting that I'm the fuckhead you were arguing with above?

(continued)

[Anonymous No.736746]

>>736519
>>736745
>>thinks hybridization is a good thing because a shithole 3rd world country does it

Earlier you were saying it was a "new idiotic gem," but now that you've seen that there is an entire country that does it, as well as studies ongoing in the US and breeding programs abroad, it's because you don't like that country?

It would be great, wonderful even, if the European honeybee's genetic diversity was still intact, but it isn't. Years of bad breeding practice have created an inbred species, and it's only getting worse in the current day with things like a single farm shipping off hundreds of genetically-similar queens per year, and some of the larger farms shipping off even more than that.

>despite the huge issues it's caused in the south eastern USA including but not limited to many deaths because of their highly aggressive behavior

The only concrete numbers per year I could find anywhere were for Texas and it was that over the last 40 years an average of 2 people have died per year. That is not "many deaths."

>and destruction of less aggressive local species which makes them a menace

So an introduced species is outcompeting another introduced species in an area. Sounds like one of them is better suited for the environment.

>>doesn't see how his own arguments are hypocritical or in direct conflict with each other despite it being pointed out several times by different posters

I. AM. NOT. THAT. POSTER. The only person I've argued with or even had replies from in this thread so far is you and >>736552.

[Anonymous No.736747]

>>736552
>There have been thousands of studies over the past decade. Why not look for yourself: http://scholar.google.co.uk/scholar?scisbd=1&q=%22colony+collapse+disorder%22&hl=en&as_sdt=1,5&as_vis=1
>Here's a good summary of the current theories: https://ddd.uab.cat/pub/tfg/2014/119612/TFG_isisbarocamarasa.pdf

I am aware of all of this.

>If you think somehow that scientists have "ignored" other possible factors your either an idiot,

I never once said scientists have ignored other possible factors. I said people in the honeybee camp, which are people like >>736519 that have no background in biology and a bizzare vested emotional interest and tribal thinking regarding the issue, refuse to even consider other methods, misleadingly present honeybees as the primary pollinator for the entire North American ecology, scaremonger about African honeybees and compound the genetic bottle-necking issue by ordering thousands upon thousands of genetically-similar queen bees from Hawaii because they're scared "Killer Bee" genetic data might have made it's way into their colony at some point.

There's a reason most of this stuff stays in the research stage: because a whole bunch of people are too stubborn to try anything but exactly what they are already doing.

>or you work for one of the companies producing neonicotinoids and have a vested interested in deflecting blame.

But as I have already said in >>736480
>that use of neonicotinoids should be severely restricted in usage, and possibly banned pending further research.
I think that severely restricting their usage, or imposing a temporary ban of 2-5 years, pending further research would be wonderful.

We need to address the issue of neonicotinoids. If the other issues aren't addressed ASAP as well, it will only make dealing with them harder later on, or just impossible to deal with. Petitioning and campaigning for a ban on neonicotinoids doesn't preclude people from dealing with other issues at the same time.

[Anonymous No.736749]

>>736692
>I'm glad there are at least 2 people ITT that actually want to talk about this stuff and actually make some sense.
I hope I'm included in that. For clarification before people start asserting I'm even more posters than >>736519 already has, I'm

>>736331 >>736421 >>736462 >>736473
>>736476 >>736480 >>736488 >>736499
>>736506 >>736513 >>736745 >>736746
>>736747

[Anonymous No.736753]

>>736745
>>736746
Stop shilling for the african bees. How much honey are giving you?

[Anonymous No.736762]

>>736462
>shortage of european honey bees
The shitty european honey bees get raped by the wasps they have over there. Only true nippon honey bees can fold their muscles thousands of times to heat their hives enough to kill the wasps off.

[Imperiales Kanonenfutter. No.736788]

>>736753
we need a greedy beekeeper meme, nao!

[Anonymous No.737286]

>go to you tube
>type JPtheBeeman

profit?

[Anonymous No.737299]

>>737286
Cool play-list, but it seems that he is largely dealing with critters in spaces that can be cut open or accessed.

[Anonymous No.737348]

>>736342
So call a few more.

My father used to keep bees until varroa destroyed all of his hives about 15 years ago. He was always glad to get a new colony.

[Anonymous No.737349]

>>736430
Oh wow, you're right. We can always import more Mexicunts.

[Anonymous No.738458]

I've been looking up so many bee keeping things lately. Seeing the various beehive components put together in configurations to perform functions is triggering feelings I would have normally attributed to Lego bricks. I have to wonder how some 3d printer templates could be awesome for making custom hive parts.

[Anonymous No.738895]

>>735501

So do wasps.

[Anonymous No.738986]

>>738895
yes but to a smaller content.

they have a much more diverse diet (fruits, other insects, nectar).

bumblebees are much better pollinators. they don't need as much temperature and sunny weather to fly out but a hive will cover a smaller area.

they are also not as much affected by insecticides.