/diy/ - Do It Yourself

[Anonymous No.690485]

Anyone here make their own knives? A buddy and I are thinking of getting into it, possibly starting a small business out of it later down the road. If anyone has any tips or wants to share their processes, I'd like to hear them.

[Anonymous No.690490]

Isnt the file steel too brittle for a knife? I remember breaking one myself, maybe it was a shitty one though.

[Anonymous No.690492]

>>690490
I have made one in the past via stock removal and i haven't noticed it being so. But then again I don't really asks much of it besides shaving off a few calluses every now and then.

i'm currently making a camping/belt knife but i made the mistake of starting with an almost half inch thick tern of the century farriers rasp I found at a flea market for a buck. The damn steel is so hard it's chewing up my 24 grit zirconium disks fairly quickly.

And it's a pain in the ass the have to keep dipping it in cold water every minuet or so to keep from ruining the temper.

[Anonymous No.690497]

>>690490

It's fine if you anneal and temper it. Files are made from pretty good steel, especially if they're old. Old American files are made from some fucking amazing steel.

[Anonymous No.690498]

>>690492
People use cooking oil or olive oil last I heard, you can put it in the freezer to chill it or whatever when you quench it. should let it slowly cool off in the oil.

[Anonymous No.690500]

>>690490
It is hard, possibly just case-hardened.

Hard things are often brittle. Diamonds can shatter under a common hammer, if struck hard enough. Gives a good chances of keeping a nice edge, though. Best to avoid chopping, hammering, and prying.

[Anonymous No.690503]

>>690498
>>690497
i i tried that stuff about 8 years ago when i was still operating my forge. But I lacked the skill and patience so everything would crack.

Thanks for the advice but I'll just be gentile with it and take my time. Besides, I doubt I would ever be able to put such a good even temper back on it as it has

[Anonymous No.690510]

>>690503
better than nothing

[Anonymous No.690616]

just buy steel stock.

buying files, or any "mystery metal" is just plain fucking stupid.

is it case-hardened? perhaps its air-cooled? no, make that a water quench. oh, no, its oil. What rockwell hardness after a temper to 270? No idea.

you dont make handmade leather bags out of old jackets. you dont make hallmarked silversmithing out of old coins. you dont make a wedding dress out of some old curtains.

why the hell would you make knives to sell, without knowing what metal they're made of?

go to Aldo Bruno in the US, furnival in the UK, dick herdim in germany, 1001 steel stockists and buy actual known steel stock for removal or forging, and make proper blades where you know what its made from.

.

[Anonymous No.690622]

>>690616
>recommending Aldo "New Jersey Steel Baron" Bruno
Confirmed for knowing your shit

[Anonymous No.690632]

I make knives. It is just a hobby, but goes for about 7 years now - pattern welded, monosteel, forging, stock removal, ...

What exactly are your questions?

I would think again about making it a small business...
Really tough to earn enough this way to make a living.

[Anonymous No.690677]

>>690622
its better than being told
>confirmed for knowing you're shit

but seriously. Mystery Metal is a false investment. You can spend $/£ 8-10 on a file... or you can spend £5-6 on a chunk of O1 the same size. or W1, D2, 5160, L6, etc etc, depending on what application its for.

its a no-brainer.

[Anonymous No.690679]

>>690677
Yeah, sorry I realize in hindsight that that could have been taken the wrong way. Do you order from Aldo often? I've done it once to make the shit in the other thread I've been dumping in >>690678 but as of late the drop down boxes don't seem to let me pick smaller quantities. Is it something wrong with my browser or is he just out of stock?

[Anonymous No.690685]

>>690679
I mostly use Furnival and O2 from Cromwell.

Aldo's on the wrong side of the atlantic for me, but I've been eyeing up some of his Hitachi Blue#2 and am distinctly tempted to get some of that, and some batshit crazily-sized 1070 at the same time, for doing a particular 13th c. falchion.

most of what I'm doing now is looking more and more at wrought backs with steel scarf-welding of cutting edges, and stuff like that, for historical blades.

[Anonymous No.690686]

>>690685
Nice bollock dagger. How hard is it to source wrought on that side of the pond`?

[Anonymous No.690703]

>>690686
not bad. there's even a foundry that still does proper wrought, if you're happy to pay a left kidney for it.

otherwise there's a healthy collection and trading of it going on.

[Anonymous No.691008]

>>690616

>my mother made my aunties bridesmaid dresses out of old curtains

>there was a thread a while back about an anon who made engagement rings or something out of 2 old silver coins, thread was mostly rage

>I made a fillet knife out of an old bandsaw blade from my work, just to see if I could, works awesome. handle is a bit shit though

I know what you're getting at but come on anon, this is /diy/

[Anonymous No.691013]

>>691008
>bandsaw blade knife
Did you take advantage of the bimetal structure if it had one?

[Anonymous No.691070]

>>690485
i started making my own knives 2weeks ago. I finished 2 and I have 4 more on the way. I suggest investing time in getting a forge to get a proper heat treatment and tempering your blades even if you start with hard metal. also normalizing your files before trying to shape em.

[Anonymous No.691072]

>>691013
elaborate please

[Anonymous No.691075]

>>690616
>you dont make handmade leather bags out of old jackets
>you dont make a wedding dress out of some old curtains
You can dictate whatever imaginary rules you believe come along with your trade, but stay the fuck out of mine with your bullshit.

Not every wedding comes under ideal circumstances, through the Great Depression making flour sack, table cloth and/or curtain wedding dresses was a thing. I've copied, repaired, restored lots of these dresses professionally (which where I learned how to make a tape loom, use a tape loom and then make tape loom lace.) I get about 3 orders a year for this exact type of dress because it's become a tradition in some families.

If you have something and it does the job and you don't use it for the sake of some purity of form then you're just a shameful waste.

[Anonymous No.691164]

>>691013
No it was just some kind of high carbon steel, rusts like a bitch if you don't keep it clean but it holds a razor edge.
I really just wanted a larger fillet knife than the one I have.

As for those bi metal hacksaw blades they make great steels for knifes, grind the teeth flat so its a square edge and run your knife down it

[Anonymous No.691169]

>>691075
While that anon might have hit a nerve, bladesmithing is a bit different. You can re-use older material for most crafts and get a pretty good idea of its properties from just handling it. However, for making blades, heat treatment is probably the most important step that separates a real knife from a bar of steel, and the specific technique to heat treat something depends greatly on alloy. A lot of experienced knifemakers look down on anyone who uses scrap steel because there aren't really any reliable ways to find out composition without taking it to a lab. This is especially compounded by the fact that many people who want to try using scrap steel are beginners who don't know what their doing.
TLDR people don't recommend using recovered materials for knifemaking because it adds a lot of unknowns. You don't want to have put in a ton of time into making a knife only to be unable to heat treat it properly towards the end. Might as well by a better quality, known bar of steel.

[Anonymous No.691182]

i AM kind new to making knives and i got problems with rust. anyone have tips to avoid that?

[Anonymous No.691184]

>>691182
Keep shit dry or better yet oiled. Sand everything to at least ~400 grit to give less places for rust to develop. Clean and dry your knives after using them.

[Anonymous No.691201]

>>691169
> bladesmithing is a bit different
>You don't want to have put in a ton of time into making a knife only to be unable to heat treat it properly towards the end

That is completely understandable and reasonable, although I think it's probably okay to let someone new to a craft use what they have readily on hand to test the waters and see if they like it before making an investment into top notch or even just standard materials.

What stuck in my craw was the old/used/recovered=shit implication across all things throughout the universe spanning time in all directions.

[Anonymous No.691208]

>>691182

that and I don't know if it is just me or casr hardening helps a lot against rust. you could also use metal rust resistant paint I guess
>>691184
>>>691182

[Anonymous No.691210]

>>691169

You are right in regard to newbies especially. I often cringe when people use some piece of rebar, work 10 hours and still get a shity result because they did not do their homewor about proper materials.

But I must add that when using old quality files for example, you can be pretty sure about the material you got, usually 1.2008 or 1.2002 steel.
Which is fine blade steel if you are not looking for a "beater", even if it is more tricky to heat treat due to the high carbon content.

So I agree that beginners should stick to known materials, but scrap can be great steel, you should just have enough experience to know what you are dealing with and do so correctly.

[Anonymous No.691232]

>>691201
It's very frustrating, as improper heat treat at worst can snap a blade in half, meaning you have to start from scratch, that anon just got carried away with analogies. Knife makers are fond of reusing old wrought iron and recovered wood for decorative/handle pieces, but it's a crapshoot and frankly a waste of time trying to use unknown materials for blades.

[Anonymous No.691238]

>>691210
http://www.foxfire.org/foxfire4.aspx

Has a damn good section on making knives from old tool steel, using the most primitive tools.

[Anonymous No.691242]

>>691238
You can definitely make good stuff from old steel, you just need a combination of knowing what you're doing, experience, and luck.

[Anonymous No.691243]

is there some sort of all encompassing guide on making knives with stock removal?

and two questions: How long does it take to file down a piece of metal with a file? Does it take 5 hours to take off an inch, or is it like a matter of minutes? and how can I heat/temper/harden the steel without a $500 oven?

[Anonymous No.691247]

>>691243
> Google
> eternity if hardened
> slowly if annealed but doable, wouldn't recommend for more than putting bevels on at most
> heat: propane/map torch or bbq grill plus air source(hair dryer)
> quench: oil of pretty much any kind
> temper: toaster or baking oven
Need any more spoonfeeding?

[Anonymous No.691261]

As far as the tempering goes, yeah you need to know what the steel is or you're just guessing, with my bandsaw blade I knew it was fairly suited to holding an edge before I started so tempering wasn't an issue, plus its super flexible which makes it great for fish.

I really like the look of OPs knife, regardless of whether its the best steel to use, you can tell what it was and the grinding looks like it was done by a pro.

[Anonymous No.691263]

>>691261
I'm more worried about the quenchant. You safely overshoot the critical temp with the main consequence being gain growth, no? Wrong quench and either it doesn't harden very much or it cracks in the quench

[Anonymous No.691264]

>>691263
*grain growth

[Anonymous No.691277]

>>691263
Another anon suggested trying escalation from gentlest to fastest.
Try air, then oil, then water, then brine.
Stop where you get satisfactory results with your unknown material.

[Anonymous No.691284]

>>691277
Yeah, I forgot about that technique, that's what I've heard is generally the procedure.
>air
Are there really any air-hardening steels that you could get a decent backyard /diy/ heat treat with in the first place? I thought they pretty much universally needed precise temperature control.

[Anonymous No.691312]

>>691263
I think so, it has a lot to do with uniform heating also, when I was starting my apprenticeship we made punches and case hardened them, I remember it took ages in the oven before we could quench in oil, turned out ok for a bit of 4140 stock.
Since then all I've ever hardened is my chipping hammer, heat it with gas torch and quench in old diff oil. Doing a blade would take some knowledge, I don't think you could even trial and error it, you need to know what the steel is doing.
That's the good thing about starting with something that's already about blade spec if you don't know what you're doing

[Anonymous No.691344]

>>691243
you need to normalize the file in order to work with it efficiently. that heating it red hot then let it cool slowly.

you can harden it back by quenching a dark glowing orange. check the magnetism of the blade: a blade that won't stick to a magnet is ready to be quenched in oil (use a metal container and vegetable oil or motor oil.). the steel is called martensite in that state

the result will be a super hard steel called martensite that needs to be tempered. it is easy to temper a blade. just put it in your house oven at the max setting. you're aiming at anything higher than 420 Fahrenheit. put your knife in(don't use motor oil if you're going to do that inside. it stinks. and wash the blade with dish soap) and calculate half a pound for an hour at a stable temperature over 400.


and this is how you normaliz, heat treat and temper your blades.

[Anonymous No.691359]

>>691344
why is 400F considered the highest for a blade?
Why is 350-400F considered the best for tempering?
Why didn't you read Wikipedia before shitposting?

[Anonymous No.691362]

>>691359
learn to read. 400 minimum. look up tempering on Wikipedia. I suggest 460 if you can reach it. but if you go too high like 650 you will lose of your initial rigidity( up yo 20%). if you are making swords you want to go has high as 1100 Celsius because you really don't want it to shatter on you.

you can use tempering to give a sweet color to your blade, just make sure it's clean and polished prior.

[Anonymous No.691366]

>>691362
>tempering at 1100C
Why did you heat treat in the first place then?

[Anonymous No.691370]

>>691366
1100C iirc wouldn't that turn steel to molten slag?

[Anonymous No.691373]

>>691370
2012 degrees Fahrenheit = 1100C
Wouldn't melt it, but would fuck up anything you were trying to temper.

[Anonymous No.691382]

>>691362
Also for the record I temper at ~400F, 600F and you're tempering for a spring, not a bladed tool
>>691373
2000 degrees is already burning the steel I think. Conservatively it'd be white hot already but still

[Anonymous No.691393]

[Anonymous No.691404]

>>691366
steel melts around 1500celsius. for sword you want a lot of ductility and tempering changes the molecular structure of steel to a more malleable one and a less brittle. heat treating : heat until you lose magnetism then quench. tempering is about keeping a high temperature and letting the blade cool slowly.

I have seen extreme high quality sword that were tempered at 1050 Fahrenheit(not Celsius sorry) that is meant for extreme metal toughness at the expense of hardness.

if you want a hard sword go for 600 Fahrenheit. but I would go for metal clashing bellow that, especially if it is not high carbon steel.

I never forged a sword but I plan into it. I need a bigger forge, oven and oil pan.

[Anonymous No.691412]

i use old leaf springs for forging and i always harden and temper a test piece than bend/snap it and go off that

[Anonymous No.691415]

talking case hardening anyone tried hardfacing low carbon structural steel for a decent edge?

[Anonymous No.691417]

>>691415
Don't think I'll ever case harden anything but wouldn't it harden too shallow? I feel like after a few sharpenings you wouldn't have any hard steel left

[Anonymous No.691422]

>>691417
well it wouldn't be hard to get 1/8 to 1/4 inch of weld on there

[Anonymous No.691431]

>>691415
I tried case hardening some knives before i got my forge and the result was hard surface that is free of rust but the core is soft. I guess if you start with hard steel the results would be a hard core with a slightly more malleable shell that is rust inhibitant.

that said. the moment you put an edge and scrape off the coloured metal, the edge will have the properties of the core. IMO.

[Anonymous No.691439]

>>691431
i don't know too much about case hardening i'm talking about welding new steel onto the piece in the way of hard facing rods/wire

[Anonymous No.691453]

>>690485
does someone know if theres anything to do with hot rolled steel? what do you think of it? Is there something to do besides heat treat and tempering?

[Anonymous No.691473]

>>691415
we built a log splitter at work and I hardfaced the head, after a few passes and a grind up it was sharp enough to cut yourself on, surely it won't last like that for ages but hardfacing low carbon steel and then shaping the edge would put a deeper hardness in it. depending on the rod you used you could find a nice median, I personally like cobalarc 650s, they run in all positions and not too messy

not gonna be comparable to a properly treated piece of steel but low carbon is useless for that anyway

[Anonymous No.691485]

>>691473
cobalarc is what i got any idea on the carbon content is it high enough to oil quench?

[Anonymous No.691495]

>>691485
you don't need to quench, it goes on hard, really hard

just run the welder quite cold, so you get the weld building up as opposed to bedding in

I don't know about treating it after, I wouldn't advise it, it's meant for wear resistance and 650 is a medium/hard finish
something like 700-800 you'd probably chip if you tried to grind it too fine

I've mainly used them hardfacing digger buckets and quarry machinery but have seen people use them on their chipping hammers, really hard wearing

I guess if you got it right you could have quite a tough blade, ductility of the mild steel behind a hard edge might prevent breaking, I'm only speculating on this though, hacksaw blades use a similar concept so might be a good hack and slash blade

[Anonymous No.691516]

>>690485

If you want to pick up old files and rail spikes, beat them into knives, oil quench and use them for whittling, go ahead... and for your first couple of knives, this is probably what you should do.

Since you mention a small business, though, you might want to get a bit more scientific later. There's a lot of very vague heat treating info in this thread. And it's because there's a lot of vague heat treating info in all the knife making books because there's vague heat treatment info in all the blacksmithing books... As a previous poster pointed out, the exact heat treatment process is highly dependent on exactly what alloy the knife blade is.

This is why any decent steel manufacturer has the exact process available on their website for every grade they sell. Examples:

Bohler:
http://www.buau.com.au/media/R100(1).pdf

Interlloy:
http://www.interlloy.com.au/our-products/tool-steel/o1-tool-steel-100mncrw4/

They also have carburizing infomration for case hardening steels. Depending on how long you case harden for, the hard skin can be several millimeters thick- but only if you actually use a case hardenable grade!

http://www.interlloy.com.au/our-products/case-hardening-steels/en39b/


If you want to go down this route, call up a supplier and ask for recommendations on what grade of steel to use. Then get the datasheet and treat it accordingly- This makes the difference between a knife that will take a razor sharp edge and lose it in a month and one that will you can still shave with a year after sharpening it.

Someone mentioned their steel was chewing through grinding wheels. You can save a few bucks in steel by grinding up old leaf springs but two grinding wheels and three bad quenches later you might have been better ooff just buying a known grade of stock.

Also, laser cutting is insanely cheap these days. I get stuff laser cut regularly for my job, a piece the size of a hunting knife would cost me less than ten dollars, material excluded.

[Anonymous No.691600]

>>691344

For manual shaping, normalising is okay - but annealing is better.

[Anonymous No.691606]

>>691404
>I have seen extreme high quality sword that were tempered at 1050 Fahrenheit(not Celsius sorry) that is meant for extreme metal toughness at the expense of hardness.

What steel exactly do you think is tempered at this temperature, and is suitable to blades when treated this way?

Seriously - this is BS. Yeah, it will be extremely tough in regards to not breaking. But it will be an extremely shitty blade, not hard in any way, prone to bending and warping.

If you give me some input what you are talking about, I may stand corrected, but I doubt it.


>if you want a hard sword go for 600 Fahrenheit. but I would go for metal clashing bellow that, especially if it is not high carbon steel.

Does your steel contain vast amounts of Si?

This is possibly the worst temperature for tempering, be it for ruggedness or hardness.

>I never forged a sword but I plan into it. I need a bigger forge, oven and oil pan.

I'd really advise you to do some more homework before that, and I do not want to be rude by saying that. Additionally, start small, make knives.

[Anonymous No.691614]

>>691072
A lot of band saw blades have a high speed alloy for the teeth and something more flexible like spring steel for the body of the blade.

[Anonymous No.691631]

To the anons who posted photos: beautiful!

[Anonymous No.691673]

>>691606
>>>691404
>>I have seen extreme high quality
> sword that were tempered at 1050

> What steel exactly do you think
> is tempered at this temperature,
> and is suitable to blades when
> treated this way?

1095 springsteel, 4140, 4150, 1095 and 1075 that I know of.

> Seriously - this is BS. Yeah,
> it will be extremely tough in
> regards to not breaking.

it depends on the what kind of toughness you want. if I recall correctly it was a Damascus viking serpent sword tempered at 1050 degrees and it was meant to be an accurate replica. so sword on sword action and same weight,etc.

>>if you want a hard sword go
> for 600 Fahrenheit. but I would
> go for metal clashing bellow
> that, especially if it is not
> high carbon steel.

check below

> Does your steel contain vast
> amounts of Si?
>
check below

> This is possibly the worst temperature
> for tempering

if you watch man at arms YouTube channel, he makes most of his swords with 1095 springsteel and he has a lot of experience. and he heat treat at 1550 and temper at 600 +/- 50 degrees. that makes a really hard sword but I wouldnt use these swords if I wanted them to be tough enough to hit another carbon steel sword.

normally there's less than 2% of silicium in carbon steel and I think you want less than that for blades. I don't know what's your point concerning Si.

I did start making knives with hot rolled steel and I heat treat and quench when the cutting edge is dark orange and I don't quench if the blade is ferromagnetic.

I temper them at the highest setting on my ovens. usually the blades turn purple and dark blue for 1h or more by half a pound blades with a 200 degree stage and slow cooled. based on the color I think the oven go as high as 540 fahr

I don't claim I am a pro. I haven't started yet. these are just bits of information I gathered and I wish to learn more.

[Anonymous No.691692]

Forged this beauty a few years ago, during an internship at a blacksmiths.
It's made out of Tool steel, so it may be not the sharpest, bit i like themlooks of it.
It's made out of one solid block of steel, the handle was just twisted with a vise and a pair of pliers. The blade was forged in a basic shape with the power hammer and then finetuned with an angle grinder. I'm not sure of this but i think i also hardend the back of the blade, before i cut the knive off the spare steel at the end of the handle. As last step i sharpened the blade, edged the edges and polished the whole thing with weapon oil.

[Anonymous No.691715]

>>691673
I don't know where the hell you're getting your information
>Man at arms
>that shitty Viking sword documentary
Yeah no, pretty much every heat treating datasheet google turns up, including recommendation of ABS Master Smith Kevin Cashen disagrees http://www.cashenblades.com/steel/1095.html
Tempering at 1050F would put a blade ballpark (depending on alloy) at 35 RC. At that point you are way softer than a spring and only marginally harder than just a normalized bar, so what's the point of heat treating?
Most knives are in the RC low 60's to high 50's, and tempering at ~600 is appropriate for a sword, and already plenty tough, not brittle at all. You should not be tempering your knives to purple/dark blue unless maybe you're making a real beater sword. You're making a cutting tool, not a spring.
Anyways, you seem extremely misinformed at best, and I'd politely ask you do some more research from more valuable sources. Everyone in this thread has been flipping out because your temperature claims are all way too hot.

[Anonymous No.691764]

>>691715

>You should
> not be tempering your knives
> to purple/dark blue unless maybe
> you're making a real beater sword.

You recommend which tempering temperature for a hunting/utility and chef knife? those are the main ones I deal with.

you are right, I've seen tempering temperature as low as 330F but never lower than that.

> Anyways, you seem extremely misinformed
Can you suggest an information source? I'd like to know more about tool steel and carbon steel.

[Anonymous No.691767]

>>691764
btw here are my shitty high tempered blades. just finished polishing an hour ago and they are razor sharp.

I'll make the handles of micarta using polyester resin , old clothes and construction paper, birch and purple heart wood. paracord on the gut knife.

any advice on sheets? I made the yellow one using a PVC tube.

[Anonymous No.691777]

>>691764
>>691767
Yes, ~400F or a yellow/straw color if you're going by visuals (since most people, even professional smiths, don't have perfectly calibrated ovens) is ideal for pretty much any knife. You can go softer for a chopper and harder for a razor, but that's where you want to be.

There's lots of info sources. Like I cited before,
http://www.cashenblades.com/info.html Cashen is an ABS Master Smith and his site has good info. There are also lots of good tutorials on Youtube/Google
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J_jMNsjVc-s

>>691767
Shapes are quite nice, I don't fancy the "buffed to a mirror shine" look myself but the blades themselves are bretty gud. That one handle looks a little rough. Those handle materials should work well though. Paracord handles are sorta popular but I think they're kind of a weak gimmick. What the fuck do I know, I'm just some librul city slicker though.

For sheaths the two common ones are Kydex and Leather. Leather's a whole 'nother ball game, but it's quite beautiful and durable when done right.
There's lots of tutorials, this guy has a lot of leatherworking vids in general, including sheaths.
https://www.youtube.com/user/satansbarber/videos
Kydex is pretty easy to do with relatively basic tools.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uVoeOeeguIs

Also you can get a razor edge on a 90 degree aluminum bar, heat treat mostly determines how knives will wear.

[Anonymous No.691782]

god. where to start...?
This thread is a trainwreck of conflicting information, 99% of which is wrong.

So, basics:
"heat-treat" - the entire process of thermal alteration of blade properties.
"normalising" - heating to 600-700 degrees C and allowing to gradually cool, 2-3 times. Serves to remove stresses that may be in the internal structure after forging.
"preheat" - heating the metal up right before heating for quenching.
"quench" -Heating to a high (glowing red-hot) temperature and then rapidly cooling by plunging into water, oil, or similar material, making the metal hard. (but brittle)
"tempering" - Heating the quenched blade to a lower temperature for a long duration, and allowing to cool afterwards. Softens the metal a little bit, making it less brittle.

Knives should be tempered to, on average, 58 to 62 Rockwell, depending on alloy used. the harder, the more likely to break.
Swords are generally significantly softer - 48-52 Rockwell HrC is commonplace.

Some samples:
O1 steel:
Preheat with short soak to 500C (930F),then raise to 790-815C (1450-1500F).
Quench into oil; single or interrupted quench.
Temper with one cycle of one hour at 150C (300F) for 62HrC Hardness or 232C (450F) for 58-59HrC.

1085 carbon Steel:
Heat to - 790C (1450F), Soak for 15 - 20mins at that temp.
Quench into oil, single quench.
Temper in one cycle at 190C (375F) for 2 hours for 60-62 Rockwell:

5160 Spring Steel:
Heat to - 830C (1525F), Soaking is not required.
Quench into oil, interrupted quench.
Temper at 150C (300F) for 1 hour for a hardness of 60-62 Rockwell

440C Stainless Steel:
Heat to 1025C (1880F) Soak for 15mins at that temp.
air-quench in positive pressure vacuum to below 125F (50C)
Temper at 108C (225F) for 2 hours, once

CPM440V Stainless Steel (S60V):
Heat to 1065.5C (1950F) and Soak for 30mins.
Either air or interrupted oil quench.
Temper in two cycles to 150C (300F) each time for 58HrC

Tempering to 1050f would completely wreck virtually all steel.

[Anonymous No.691787]

>>691782
The TLDR is just look up manufacturer's/other more experienced bladesmith's heat treatment schedules if you want to get actual high performance out of a given steel

[Anonymous No.691789]

>>691782
Heat treatment for swords, generally speaking you're looking at significantly hotter temperatures in the temper, because you want to draw the HT right down, making the blade springy. a knife is not going to be bent 90 degrees by the user torquing the blade around their head. A german longsword could well have that sort of force twisted through it.

therefore, 52HrC is considered a sensible target for a good swordblade. For a blunted sword that will be used in training, drawing the temper even further is sensible - HT of EN45 down to 48HrC will actually produce a blade that's more durable.

Note that generally speaking a swordblade is better off in a lower-carbon alloy; 0.6%-0.7% is common.
In europe, Cs70 is commonplace,
in the UK, EN45, (actually a silicon-manganese spring steel),
in the US, AISI 5160 spec

these alloys are more suited to a sword-blade, compared to O1, 1085, or 440c which will likely risk catastrophic failures a little easier than a slightly softer lower-carbon steel.

Milage may vary however; Tony swatton may well prefer 1095, but Peter Johnsson uses Uddeholm 1770, which is closer to 1070. I use EN45, usually.

[Anonymous No.691799]

>>691782

>99% of which is wrong

>coming into a thread rubbishing all other posts

>having your head that far up your own ass

You may have posted "correct" info but if you want to be listened to perhaps don't act like an elietest asshole

[Anonymous No.691800]

>>691799
sure. perhaps I should just pat people on the head and say "well done timmy, that 1050 degree tempering will be fine...."

or possibly, you're being a over-sensitive special snowflake, and should pay attention? the thread is packed full of errors and misconceptions.

[AC No.691804]

Buy some bare blades first, and put handles on them. Takes practice. You'll want a narrow band belt sander (look at Harbor Freight).

Helle and Mora bare blades are pretty inexpensive.

[Anonymous No.691806]

>>691804
Your milage may vary but I really don't see the point of starting out that basic. Shaping the steel, heat treating it, and finish it are all pretty fundamental skills, and a lot of people, myself included, start out doing full blades. Just gotta do your research. Sure your bevels will be wonky and your blade probably won't hold the most amazing edge ever, but it's a lot more rewarding to start from scratch and will speed up your learning. Just putting a handle on a knife blank is basically just wood working.

[Anonymous No.691837]

This is a bit tangential but sorta knife related.
Mostly theoretical question.

Say you're making a kitchen knife set with the whole shebang. A chef's knife, a utility knife, a pairing knife or two, maybe a bread knife, a filet knife, maybe even something for carving up a turkey. How would you go about making a kitchen steel? Just take a rod of high carbon steel, heat treat it to harder than the knives and stick it in a handle? Would that be functional/sufficient or would you need to scrape/mill in some grooves or impregnate diamonds or something?

[Anonymous No.691848]

>>691837
>his is a bit tangential but sorta knife related.
>Mostly theoretical question.
>Say you're making a kitchen knife set with the whole shebang. A chef's knife, a utility knife, a pairing knife or two, maybe a bread knife, a filet knife, maybe even something for carving up a turkey. How would you go about making a kitchen steel? Just take a rod of high carbon steel, heat treat it to harder than the knives and stick it in a handle? Would that be functional/sufficient or would you need to scrape/mill in some grooves or impregnate diamonds or something?

My 2 cents are to use stainless steel for anything that touches food. 440c is a good start point or just buy knives from the dollar store and salvage the steel.
For the handles I would use something that doesnt take liquids like a plastic or if you use wood an epoxy finish or waterbased wood finish.

They will be functional without diamonds. you can buy sand paper up to 300-600 grit and polish until you get the finish you like.

[Anonymous No.691859]

>>690485
I can see already that if you want to make money you need some tools to make your life easier.

If you cut your own sheet or metal bars you could get a cheap angle grinder with some metal blades.

remember do have like one template and work with it. try to figure out what you can adjust to make the handle and weight balance better.

A belt sander is imo the best investment you could make to save time with a 100 ish grit and a 300-600 grit belt, a second hand drill press is good too to align your holes with the wood to make your rivets and a buffing wheel (just an electric motor with a wheel that you can put compound on it to polish your metal)

I like to use brass for rivets like you did. The knife looks good but a new file is like 10$.

If you find anyone know a good website to order good knife metal in U.S. or Canada. let me know...

[Anonymous No.691862]

>>691837
lets try actually answering the question, unlike the other guy...

I'd personally get a rod of metal, probably a good silver steel since that will harden up nicely, anneal it, and then make a simple jig with a groove and a guide alongside it. I'd then use a scraper to cut the grooves along the rod, using the guide to ensure they're all in line, indexing the rod around by a set degree each time.

I'd make the graver scraper for something that size from a good quality junior hacksaw blade, or a HSS steel hacksaw blade like an eclipse, ground down slightly thinner, and mounted into a handle with just one tooth poking out.

that sort of scraper will scribe a square-profiled groove, perhaps .5 to .75mm wide and the same depth, with an angle about 80 degrees on each edge. once its all scribed in, I'd then work the handle area for whatever grip method the rest are made with, HT it, and bingo, a good steel that works for the set.

[Anonymous No.691866]

>>691859
>If you find anyone know a good website to order good knife metal in U.S. or Canada. let me know...

Aldo Bruno, the New Jersey Steel Baron
http://newjerseysteelbaron.com/

if you're in North America, there's no-one else comes close in terms of service.

[Anonymous No.692026]

>>691614
>Did you take advantage of the bimetal structure if it had one?

I was thinking about taking advantage of it though

Were you thinking of some procedure specifically?

[Anonymous No.692096]

>>691782

>This thread is a trainwreck of conflicting information, 99% of which is wrong.
>So, basics:
>"heat-treat" - the entire process of thermal alteration of blade properties.
>"normalising" - heating to 600-700 degrees C and allowing to gradually cool, 2-3 times. Serves to remove stresses that may be in the internal structure after forging.
>"preheat" - heating the metal up right before heating for quenching.
>"quench" -Heating to a high (glowing red-hot) temperature and then rapidly cooling by plunging into water, oil, or similar material, making the metal hard. (but brittle)
>"tempering" - Heating the quenched blade to a lower temperature for a long duration, and allowing to cool afterwards. Softens the metal a little bit, making it less brittle.


While I have been a critic myself ( >>691606) and most of what you write is correct (albeit pretty harsh), I would add that 600 to 700 degrees Celsius is NOT normalizing.

For normalizing, you have to reach critical temperature and austenize your steel. Which will not happen at 600 to 700 °C. You are aiming for approx. 800°C, depending on your steel (but for most people, we cannot be so precise anyway). It is important to not linger too long at this temperature. You heat it up pretty fast and austenize it, remove from heat and let it cool.

[Anonymous No.692097]

>>691673

>if you watch man at arms YouTube channel, he makes most of his swords with 1095 springsteel and he has a lot of experience. and he heat treat at 1550 and temper at 600 +/- 50 degrees. that makes a really hard sword but I wouldnt use these swords if I wanted them to be tough enough to hit another carbon steel sword.

I do not know the guy, but I do not care for his experience or who he is - the temperatures are off.
I would not use these swords for "tough work against other swords" either - because when heat treated this way, they are NEITHER hard nor tough!

>normally there's less than 2% of silicium in carbon steel and I think you want less than that for blades. I don't know what's your point concerning Si.

Well, it seems you should look up what silicium does. Most swordmakers like good amounts of it in their blades and for a reason!
Higher Si content can mean slightly higher tempering temperatures - but 600°F are still too hot.


>I temper them at the highest setting on my ovens. usually the blades turn purple and dark blue for 1h or more by half a pound blades with a 200 degree stage and slow cooled. based on the color I think the oven go as high as 540 fahr
>I don't claim I am a pro. I haven't started yet. these are just bits of information I gathered and I wish to learn more.

Avoid blue. Seriously. I've seen people do it because they like the looks. But blue means one of the worst tradeoffs between hardness and toughness. As a rule of thumb: If you missed "golden straw colour" and went above, I would repeat the heat treatment.

[Anonymous No.692104]

>>692096
Derp!

I knew there was something I'd written was bugging me, and I couldnt spot where the error was.

thanks for the correction.

[Anonymous No.692179]

>>692097
he is a blacksmith that made hundreds of swords with more experience than me. and I wouldn't shit on free heat treating info that he gives in his videos. maybe you could if you are more experienced or a retard.

the favorite steel for knife making is 1095 steel that has 0,4% of Si. Is it that hard to explain what Si does for a sword and why swordmakers like it? that's kinda of what I want to know.

I considered your advice for tempering colour .

pic is my shitty novice forge

[Anonymous No.692192]

>>692179
>he is a blacksmith that made hundreds of swords with more experience than me. and I wouldn't shit on free heat treating info that he gives in his videos. maybe you could if you are more experienced or a retard.

Well, I do. Experience does not matter in that reagard. People can do stuff for dozens of years and still do it wrong. I know this sounds really arrogant, and maybe it is.
But metallurgy does not care for experience, long beards or reknown. Tempering at this temperature is getting the worst of both worlds if you go for blades.

>the favorite steel for knife making is 1095 steel that has 0,4% of Si. Is it that hard to explain what Si does for a sword and why swordmakers like it? that's kinda of what I want to know.

I can, but I'd say looking for knowledge yourself is part of learning, you can't have everything spoon-fed to you.
Si, in steels like 55Si7 (well liked steel for long blades and swords) greatly improves elasticity if you heat treat everything correctly. It is harder to do pattern welded with steels high in Si (though not like high Cr, I still have made pattern welded stuff with Si, just be careful to get clean surfaces before folding and flux well).

>I considered your advice for tempering colour .
>pic is my shitty novice forge

I used similar in the beginning. And you can do everything with charcoal forges for example, people have done so for millennia.

I only do stock removal anymore. If I have some more space and a more permanent living place (for an air-hammer and a bigger setup), I will forge again.

[Anonymous No.692222]

>>692026
Just an edge profile to put most or all of the edge on the harder part of the blade.

You'd wnd up qith a seax or santoku shape, where the edge is pretty straight.

Since you mentioned it, now I'm wondering whether it would be better to make most of the edge, or just the point, of harder material. You could go either way with a wide enough saw blade to start.

[Anonymous No.692243]

>>692192
>Well, I do. Experience does not matter in that reagard. People can do stuff for dozens of years and still do it wrong. I know this sounds really arrogant, and maybe it is.
>But metallurgy does not care for experience, long beards or reknown. Tempering at this temperature is getting the worst of both worlds if you go for blades.


you arent the only one. I have made swords for years, do have an international name for myself, do work with some of the best in the world, and I'd also disagree with Tony's choice there.

1095 is a great knife steel. but its not a sword steel. the HT he's doing might well suit a knife brilliantly. but for a sword, I'd do very different approaches.
but then everyone has a personal preference.

[Anonymous No.692258]

>>692243

Personal choice leading to a poor product is no longer a "choice" except in ignorance or ease. A shit product is a shit product. Especially if one should know better.

[Anonymous No.692268]

>>692258
the majority of swattons' swords are for film and TV use. if they're being clanged against each other, he may want a harder HT from 1095, so that edges dont burr when being clashed dramatically by actors who dont know how to fight, and where instead the blade simply breaks when pushed too far.

if that's the case, that would explain his preference.

it may be ignorance, it may not. Neither of us are him to know the reasons he has for his choice.

[Anonymous No.692277]

tempering should be at least 380 celcius for hours. this will take out the tension and after forging you wont have bending problems. a good material is 51CrV4 steel. it has decent elongation and flexibily. you need to harden the cutting edge to around 59 HRC at least. also 16CrMn5 is a good material.
if you want a softer material where you will mainly forge instead of machining i suggest using DD11

[Anonymous No.692280]

>>692277
ooops made a mistake
>16MnCr5

[Anonymous No.692316]

folded steel?
http://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?t=109415

[Anonymous No.692457]

One of my recent ones.

[Anonymous No.692479]

>>692457

And my shitty hillbilly forge.

[Anonymous No.692568]

Any knifemakers here have any recommendations for finishing wrought iron? It's really down the road but I ordered some online (city slicker here so not like I could easily find scrap anyways). General consensus seems to be putting some kind of wax on but I was just curious if anyone had a particular method that worked well for them.

[Anonymous No.692577]

>>692568
Did you order steel or actual wrought iron?

[Anonymous No.692578]

>>692457
Calling that a knife might be a bit generous. It looks like you just cut a piece of scrap with an oxytorch

[Anonymous No.692580]

>>692577
Architectural wrought iron.
http://usaknifemaker.com/wrought-iron-salvage.html?___SID=U

[Anonymous No.692788]

>>692578
Pretty much, yeah. It was a fun project.

[Anonymous No.692952]

>>692277
>tempering should be at least 380 celcius for hours. this will take out the tension and after forging you wont have bending problems.

BS. You have no clue about heat treating. Tempering is done AFTER hardening/quenching. SO if you got a problem with bending, you already have a bent blade when you do your tempering.

And like me and another poster already told you, 380°C is way too hot for tempering and you get the most shitty result.

>DD11 = 1.0332

Not blade steel. Seriously. How in hell....

So much misinformation in so few sentences.

>16MnCr5

Simply not material for blades. Not even for knives. Swords are out of the question. Where in hell did you get this idea?

>51CrV4

decent steel for "choppers".

[Anonymous No.693210]

>>692952
my advice to you is to give some slack,breath and read more carefully.

why don't you tell us one build that works for you for a sword or a knife and share your experiences.

people talked about swords and knives and I don't see any errors in the quote. saying people are full of crap serves noone.

[Anonymous No.693213]

>>690616
nicholson blackhawk files are confirmed to be 1095 carbon steel, no mystery metal there

[Anonymous No.693228]

>>693213
and how much is a 14" blackhawk file?

$28.45, by my shopping around.

that's for a file roughly 14 inches long plus a tang of an inch or so, about 1.5 inches wide, and 0.25 inches thick, of which, with file-teeth on it, its really only 0.20inches thick.

You know what you can also get for $28?
a bar of 1095, in an annealed state, with no teeth cut into the surface, 1.5 inches wide.

and 48 inches long.

3-4 times as much material, with no time needed to be spent in preparing by annealing, no time wasted in cleaning up the surface where the teeth mark the metal.

Using a file instead of fresh stock that costs you 1/4 of the price for the equivalent length, that saves you time, effort and money is FUCKING RETARDED.

[Anonymous No.693273]

>>693228
kek

[Anonymous No.693285]

>>690616
>buying

I work with a forge I put together to piss about on weekends. Have made plenty of knives, usually out of used coil springs from small cars.

If you are paying for steel stock for a hobby, you are doing it wrong. If it were to transition into a professional business then yes, I would start using stock.

[Anonymous No.693289]

>>693228
That's only the case if you personally value everything at market value.

If you already have a file, and don't need it, its value is not $28, it's somewhere around what someone would pay you for a second-hand file, minus the utility cost in selling it.

If you only need one knife, material for one knife has the same value as material for a hundred knives. Unless you plan on reselling the excess, and again utility cost.

If you already have a file that you don't need, you would actually lose money by buying the cheaper-per-unit knife stock.

[Anonymous No.693326]

>>693210
>why don't you tell us one build that works for you for a sword or a knife and share your experiences.


There are matters of preference or experience.

But there is also stuff that is plain wrong and not a matter of taste or experience. Some things simply do not work. And several of the "sword steels" he told us about do not work. For nobody. It is not a matter of experience. It is BS.

As for your question: Steels with a carbon content of approximately 0.6 to 0.7%. The only other elements you may want in your steel are Silicone and/or sime Nickel. Stainless is out of the question.

So, just to throw some numbers around: 56Si7 (due to high Si you can temper at higher temperature if you really want to do this), 1.2003, CK70, pattern welded C45/75Ni8, ...

>saying people are full of crap serves noone.

Oh yes it does. If it is clearly crap, but the person tries to come about as knowledgeable, newbies will listen to him, heed his advice, get a crappy result and waste his time and energy.

[Anonymous No.693327]

>>693285

[Anonymous No.694848]

Fucking do it OP! And smith your first blades! learn it by doing it.

pic is table of kinfemakers fair of mine and my friends. Morning and evening. It was our first fair. First time we showed our faces in the open

[Anonymous No.694852]

>>694848
What do you do to make a handle out of antler like the one in that picture? I've used antler before but it was just small pieces between wood, never tried a full piece.

[Anonymous No.694856]

You have to drill the spongeous inner side, then you have to drown it with epoxy glue and insert the tang of the blade. The tang is cut from both sides to make larger surface for the glue.

[Anonymous No.694904]

>>694848
Nice edge hammer. Wish I had one.

[Anonymous No.694907]

I always wanted one, so i had to make one. I bought round bar of carbon steel with 40mm in diameter. Drill a 20mm hole and stretch the hole in the forge. Then I hardened the first 1/3 in the oil and then tempered it... It works just perfectly...

[Anonymous No.694928]

>>694848
Those are some nice axes you made there.

[Anonymous No.695290]

I see a lot of you guys making knives, but have you ever considered forging something a bit more substantial?

Maybe a polearm of some kind like a lucerne, pike or warhammer.

[Anonymous No.695470]

>>695290
see
>>694848

we are working on several axes, a mace and a warhammer was our first prototype, but that was before we learned to ram a hole through steel, so it cracked during forging. you can see it on the picture far left. Those are our fails, we keep that picture and study it. It reminds us to stay humble and learn from mistakes

[Anonymous No.695485]

>>695290
a good mace is technically far, far tougher to make than a knife.

(to put it in perspective, a 15th C knife, I'll charge about £120-135 for. A mace, you're looking at £400-500.

[Anonymous No.695487]

>>695290
lucernes are pretty straightforward, the hard part there is getting the transverse cross-bar to be secured, and the hassle of cutting langets.

at least, they are, till you start wanting stuff like this. when they go from a few hundred quid, to "and how much is sir willing to pay?" territory...

war-hammers, a simple one is about the same, just smaller. An all-metal hammer (16th C) is quite a headache to fabricate though.

pikes are piss-easy, except getting long enough hafts. no-one does a good 18-foot ash pole these days.

[Anonymous No.695865]

Have any of you attempted to make an electric forge like in my pic? Looks like it would work very well with small shit like knives.

[Anonymous No.695867]

>>695865
In a about 10-15 seconds the screwdriver ended up like this.

[Anonymous No.695885]

>>695865
Resistance heating? Running through that huge variac?

It seems like an induction forge would be a more elegant solution.

[Anonymous No.695900]

>>692457
Are you an ork?

[Anonymous No.696403]

>>695900
Dunno why, but this killed my sides.

[Anonymous No.696887]

>>695290
I'd like to practice doing spearheads one time, but I don't have a way to forge a socket

[Anonymous No.696922]

>>696887
You mean to tell me you feel confident enough to make blades, but are so retarded you can't hammer some metal flat and then curl it?

[Anonymous No.697091]

I have access to some duplex sheets (3mm & 4mm thick) should I try and make a blade from it? The exact grade is 1.4462. I also have acces to a waterjet and 6kW laser cutter.

[Anonymous No.697151]

>>696922
I don't feel confident doing the forge welding, don't have a way to make a tapered curl properly like you see on almost every socketed tool, and I haven't had to forge anything harder than a single bevel, then I'd grind in a false edge or second edge if I wanted one

[Anonymous No.697170]

>>692457
That does look as if it's from somewhere in middle earth. It's wicked though.

[Anonymous No.697187]

I bought the blade and a block of wood. Carved and polished the handle, shaped the copper piece also.

I would love to get into making knives and sell them if I had the tools for it.

Stock removal obviously for a start and eventually venture into smithing.

I should make another one and try to sell it. Pic related was for my father, skinning knife.

[Anonymous No.697309]

>>697187
The copper will probably corrode the steel over time.

[Anonymous No.697312]

>>697309
where do people come up with this utter FUCKING BULLSHIT and spout it as facts?

Copper is more cathodic than steel. A copper object fixed to a steel one will act as a sacrificial anode, and PREVENT corrosion of the steel....

[/rundown No.697314]

Before carving or shaping the material you plan to turn into a knife, soak it in plutoniam 238
to temporarily soften the material up. it will harden up within 36 hours but it becomes much easier to shape.

[Anonymous No.697318]

>>697309
Copper doesn't react with steel.

[Anonymous No.697320]

>>697309
If there is any reaction, it's between the copper and leather sheath. Shit turns black if unattended after a week.

[Anonymous No.697321]

>>697309
Probably not going to matter for a very long time, especially if he used epoxy/solder to bond it

[Anonymous No.697326]

>>697321
>>697320
>>697318
Copper Internet Defense Force pls

[Anonymous No.697332]

>>697326
>>697320
No really, I'm the guy with the knife.

The copper gets a black coating, rustic as fuck when you rub it off with cloth, but not sure how it will go in the long run, 5+years.

[Anonymous No.697342]

>>697332
Copper will cause the steel to corrode faster, as it is a sacrificial anode....


however, for that you'll need an electrolyte, ie, salt water, and it to be soaked in that stuff constantly.

in which case, your knife is fucked anyway.

pic sort of related, a 500-year old knife from the river Thames. copper/brass is still fresh, steel is pretty beaten up.

However, that's after 500 years in a river. I dont think you need to worry about it corroding the steel, in a dry leather sheath, in your lifetime.