/diy/ - Do It Yourself

[Anonymous No.660282]

what is this ARDUINO faggotry? what happened to transistors and stuff? like building your own circuits? am i the only one who thinks this is retarded? or am i getting old?

[Anonymous No.660286]

>building your own digital circuits
if it was meant like this then you are getting to old

>arduino instead of attiny/atmega/pic/..
then you are right

[Anonymous No.660288]

>>660286
i see people using arduinos to flash one LED or a couple LEDs what's the point?

[Anonymous No.660290]

>>660288
to get into programming i guess

[Anonymous No.660293]

>>660282
I actually agree with OP, to some degree.

For projects that need to be continuously re-programmed, yes, something like an arduino board or a Pi is quite useful...

... but most of the stuff I've seen people do with it would be much more efficient cost-wise to use logic gates and PIC's.

But what do I know, I'm just a robotics engineer.

[Anonymous No.660301]

>>660286
>building your own digital circuits
yes? what's wrong with that? pic related easy digital circuit

[Anonymous No.660324]

>>660282
SO much mad.

>Durr hurr use a 555 timer

No faggot, I won't.

[Anonymous No.660325]

Arduino and pie are the new hotness gramps

[Anonymous No.660380]

>>660282
No, you're not retarded or 'getting old', you actually understand actual electronics, as opposed to these dumb kids who think shit like 'arduino' and 'raspberry pi' hacking is electronics, which it is not, it's just writing playtime code for little microcontrollers. They think that you can't do anything without a microcontroller, including making an LED flash on and off, and that anything that doesn't use a microcontroller isn't worth the time to even look at let alone understand. Honestly, I fear for the future of technolgy, if any of these kids are actually getting engineering degrees. I work with engineers all day at my job, and many of them are completely helpless with anything that isn't microprocessor-based. I doubt any of them could design a crystal set AM radio, let alone actually solder anything competently.

Keep doing what you're doing OP, and keep pushing real electronics. It'll become the litmus test, separating out the kids that actually have a chance of understanding how actual electronics works, and the dumb kids who think everything is just Legos.

[Anonymous No.660383]

>>660324
>No faggot, I won't.
Well then I guess we have no choice other than to conclude that you're not smart enough to comprehend how something so simple as the venerable 555 timer IC works, and have too little attention span to bother over the hundreds of different applications it's been used in over the decades, and why, consequently, it's still in production. You think 'newer' automatically means 'better'; you're completely and totally wrong, and what's hilarious about that is you probably aren't even capable of understanding why. Enjoy your career in the fast food industry, or as a business major, or whatever you incompetent types end up doing.

[Anonymous No.660386]

>>660325
Hey, let's take something that's capable of millions of instructions executed per second, enough computing power to have landed Apollo 11 on the moon safely, and make it flash an LED! Great idea! Never mind that you can buy an LED that flashes itself, and surprise! It does it *without* any sort of microcontroller or microprocessor! That's right, a couple transistors and a couple passive components! Don't you feel stupid now?

[Anonymous No.660402]

>>660282
I mostly agree with you OP. Arduino hobbyists often have the same problem as children who started using a calculator when they should have been learning their multiplication tables. The Arduino is supposed to help novices get into electronics and programming, but it ends up being a crutch. They skip learning the basics and rely on it to do trivial little things. Then they turn into guys like this (>>660324) who give up or get hostile when someone suggests expanding their skill set.

[Anonymous No.660411]

>>660402
>>660383
Let me explain to you why the arduino is so great, it's an awesome multitool. Sure I could do things "the hard way" but why? It's modular, super easy to connect shit with and easy to change and adjust on the fly.

I'm not an EE major, I know how to code from my CS background. I'm not making a project to sell, why not do things in the method that work best for me?

>but muh old way is better
Not always gramps

Pic related is my arduino *gasp* powered dart counter with display I built.

[Anonymous No.660416]

>>660380
>I doubt any of them could design a crystal set AM radio

Who cares? I work in networking, I couldn't setup and old school Tolken ring network anymore, but it's not relevant.

I think you'll more bitching more at home on hackaday.

[Anonymous No.660420]

>>660411
But: You can't claim to be working with real electronics. You know a very minimal amount of electronics, just enough to get by, and otherwise you're a code monkey.

Try this: Write code for your Arduino that makes it receive FM stereo broadcast stations. What, you can't? That's because you can't do actual electronics, all you can do is microcontrollers. Don't give me that 'software defined radio' line either, you still need an RF front end to make that work, and Arduino guys like you wouldn't know where to start, and don't tell me 'nobody cares about radio anymore' because then you're just being evasive.

[Anonymous No.660423]

>>660416
The WORLD is not 100% digital.
RF engineers laugh and sneer at 'digital' engineers because they don't really know much, and RF engineers are paid much more than the other guys are. All your networking wouldn't even be possible without engineers that understand RF, as well as all wireless networking being impossible without it, either. See, you're only playing with a tiny subset of electronics, so don't think that you actually know much of anything yet.

[Anonymous No.660435]

>>660411
>Sure I could do things "the hard way" but why?
The children I tutor say the same thing when I ask them to do arithmetic without a calculator. It's important to learn because higher level math requires more than just knowing how to use a calculator which makes it impossible for someone who has relied on one all their life. Electronics beyond a very beginner level is impossible for someone who has relied on an Arduino to do everything instead of learning the basics.

A lot of the things you consider hard will become very easy if you take the time to learn them instead of using an Arduino as a crutch. Once you know what you're doing it becomes much faster to drop down some logic ICs or analog filtering than it is to read everything into an Arduino then write an algorithm to output the logic you want. The more you know the more interesting things you can do even if you want to involve an Arduio in most of your projects. You should not be resistant to learning new things.

[Anonymous No.660438]

>>660416
> I couldn't setup and old school Tolken ring

That's good. I don't want any more rulers of Middle-earth turning into Nazgûl.

[Anonymous No.660470]

>>660380
Your "real" electronic already becoming smaller and smaller.

Who need manual radio tuner in these day ?
Most already move on to automatic/digital tuner.
Welcome to DSP.

Need programmable active filter ?
Welcome again to DSP.

Need to design your own logic circuit ?
Welcome to Verilog or VHDL.

Need multipurpose task ?
Welcome to C and assembly language.

TLDR:
Yes, to qualify as EE you should understand electronics, but that doesn't mean you must stuck with clumsy old tech.
Newer != better but if newer is cheaper and better, why not ?

[Anonymous No.660493]

>>660470
You're blithely ignorant of the reality here.
There will ALWAYS be analog electronics and discrete circuits, you CANNOT replace all of it with a microprocessor or all-digital circuitry.
Also:
>mfw digital circuitry wouldn't be possible without analog circuitry in the first place

Honestly you sound like someone who really hasn't been exposed to a wide enough range of electronics to really understand what you're talking about.

[Anonymous No.660501]

>>660301
Pls tell me this is bait


Anyway arduinos are not for engineers, they are for people without a background in electronics, for hobbysts or for children.

If you are not an engineer, then there is nothing wrong with using an arduino.

[Anonymous No.660505]

I think the real problem here is that OP don't even know what microcontrollers are.

[Anonymous No.660508]

>>660286
Everybody stop

>>660301
This fucking retard has no concept of microcontrollers.

If you show him an atmel he'll say something like "what happened to building your own circuits", because this is his idea of a circuit.

Did you think he was talking about FPGAs? No, this is what he was talking about.

[Anonymous No.660512]

Old electronics hobbiest here too. Probably older
But it's kinda cool. Just looks bad due to all the people that expect to do stuff with it and don't even know ohms law.

Been playing with a MSP430 and it's nice to be able to do stuff with software, especially with the eyesight getting bad.

[Anonymous No.660520]

>>660282
Why can't cunts like you go back to being music snobs?

[Anonymous No.660521]

>>660493
The point is it's good to know how to code.

Nobody is saying analog and discrete will go away, but usually a modern components are sold cheaper.

eg:
6/8 pin PIC cost less than 50cents, compared to discrete transistor or logic gate, these IC are cheaper.
Similar with CPLD vs discrete logic, etc.

[Anonymous No.660524]

>>660521
*Should be CPLD vs complex discrete logic

[Anonymous No.660531]

>>660505
>>660508
i know what microcontrollers are i am an oldfag EE and work with new gen EE kids and honestly if you are all like them i think the world is pretty much FUCKED. i'm just saying arduinos are for lazy autistic kids, plz don't ruin the furture of electronics for non autistic kids kthx good night

[Anonymous No.660568]

>>660380
you sir are a gentleman and a scholar.

[Anonymous No.660573]

>>660520
because FUCK YOU! that's why.. and how do you know i'm a music snob? NSA???

[Anonymous No.660579]

>>660521
Any real engineer I've ever worked with find it trivial to learn how to write code assuming they have a reason to do so. Conversely just about every 'software engineer' or programmer I've ever worked with found even the most basic of electronics concepts to be hard to wrap their heads around, and come of them aren't even mechanically inclined either. With the exception of the cream-of-the-crop, programmers are paid considerably less than engineers at the same level of education and years experience, too. Don't bother contradicting me like *I'm* one of the kids that permeate this place, either, because I'm far from it and haven't said a single word that can't be backed up with what I've seen with my own two eyes.

[Anonymous No.660580]

>>660579
>..find it trivial to learn how to write code..
..FOUND it trivial to learn how to write code..

>..and come of them aren't even mechanically inclined either.
..and SOME of them aren't even mechanically inclined either.

Sheesh. I need to get some sleep, I have to be coherent for work in the morning.

[Anonymous No.660587]

>>catalog
>^F "arduino"
>only this thread found
>^F "rpi" and "raspberry"
>nothing found

Without faggot OP, there wouldn't be any Arduino or RPi threads. Was this rage filled thread really needed?

[Anonymous No.660588]

Question guys.
If I use an Arduino for prototyping as a fast way to get results. Will this make the project itself get frowned upon here?

[Anonymous No.660598]

>>660587
your the one raging brah. OP and others have some good points.. ackchually i take that back you and a few other arduino fanboys are raging...

[Anonymous No.660600]

Typical EE mentality. There is a field called computer engineering, and it is entirely based on leveraging resources. It takes design concepts from the Computer Science world (modularization, reusability, "Don't reinvent the wheel if you don't have to") and applies it to hardware.

If something can be rapidly prototyped on an arduino, then by all means use it. If something can be rapidly prototyped using 555 timers and discrete gates, then by all means use those. It's all about the applications.

The arduino is aimed at the hobbyist who is getting primarily into coding, and a little bit about electronics. That being said, there is nothing wrong with prototyping control or measurement or whatever for your analog circuit using arduino.

This bullshit of "If it's not hard it's not designed well" is the kind of crap I was fed in the EE department of my university. After I added the CPRE degree I saw the wonders of building on previous work and not reinventing the wheel all the time.

Everyone at their own pace, using their own skill sets to do what they want to do in the way that they see it best and can be done the best.

[Anonymous No.660613]

I went to the EE-shop two weeks ago, and bought an AVR microcontroller. Paid ~ half the price of Arduino Uno.
Then I bought an programmator for it, cheapiest they had. Paid another half of Arduino.

Then I brought those things home and found out that I don't have COM-port on my PC, so I need to throw in even more money on usb2com or more expensive programmator.

Maybe It's just because I leave in a shithole with very greedy resellers and restricted overboard shipping or maybe I shop in wrong cases, but using Arduino + Arduino components is just cheapier, if you care about results and not process. Hell, even using Raspberry Pi is cheapier in most cases.

[Anonymous No.660614]

>>660598
Lol no. It's just funny and kinda sad that without this thread this board would free of Arduino and RPi OPs.
Also,
>implying
>assuming
>pointless insults

[Anonymous No.660615]

>>660588
No. There is no shame in not wanting to re-invent the wheel. Arduinos can be pretty powerful in the right hands.

Check this guy out if you have the time: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X2wWTadsBDA

[Anonymous No.660618]

>>660600
computer engineering huh!? you know what computers are made of? open up your laptop or desktop and come back and post...

[Anonymous No.660620]

>>660618
Yes, I actually do. Are you speaking practically or theoretically? Practically, I've replaced mobos, RAM, HDD's, have built my own PC, have modded PC's, Macs, etc.

Theoretically I designed my own computer processor in VHDL for a design project in school. I'm working on designs for a DSP-specific processor as well as a c++ compiler for a library of DSP modules I've written.

My dick is thiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiis big.

[Anonymous No.660621]

>>660618
Furthermore, I actually hold two degrees, one in Electrical Engineering and one in Computer Engineering

[Anonymous No.660626]

>>660620
by building you mean put parts together? thats nice.. you missed the point..anyways computers would not exist without analog circuits. doesn't matter how "digital" le chip is ..inside that chip there are lots and lots of transistors. like it or not errything goes back to the very basics of electronics

[Anonymous No.660627]

>>660621
i feel sorry for you and the ones who "graduated" with you. if you or your parents paid for your "education" ASK FOR YOUR MONEY BACK!

[Anonymous No.660628]

>>660626
I'm not arguing that.

Digital signals are literally just analog signals, except we abstract them to ones or zeros. That was my original point is that computer engineering is all about abstraction. Digital circuitry IS analog circuitry with the abstraction of two differing voltage levels (or the presence/absence of current) being abstracted to ones or zeros so higher level theories such as computer algorigthms or data storage etc. can take place.

I'm not arguing that one bit. Coming from both backgrounds, I understand perfectly the difference between analog and digital circuitry. My point is that digital circuitry allows for much higher levels of abstraction that CompE's, SoftE's, and ComSci's can take advantage of WITHOUT needing an advanced knowledge of analog circuitry.

As far as missing your point, I'm not sure what your point was other than an ill-advised trip down "ANALOG IS KING" in a ridiculous argument of analog vs. digital. They both have their merits, yet knowledge of one is not strictly required for a good concrete knowledge of the other.

[Anonymous No.660631]

>>660627
Why? Because I actually came out with knowledge of BOTH analog and digital circuitry? Yeah, I can do 555 timer circuits with the rest of them. Yes, I understand transistors. Yes, I did analog VLSI design. Does it mean that digital circuitry and computer algorithms are worthless? absolutely not. Does it mean that my education was worthless? By YOUR standards, I actually got a damn good education.

The EE preoccupation with "CODE BAD" still baffles me, as does the CPRE preoccupation with "CIRCUITS BAD."

As I'll rehash, knowledge of one is not required for knowledge of the other, but knowledge of both only strengthens and furthers the applications and understanding in both directions. For that I'm damn thankful of my education.

[Anonymous No.660634]

>>660628
but analog IS KING THOUGH! withouth analog digital will be IMPOSSIBLE

[Anonymous No.660635]

>>660634
By that logic, we should all be ashamed of ourselves for not all being semiconductor physicists.

[Anonymous No.660639]

>>660628
>>660631
you're an OK guy but still i think you are missing the point. kids trying to learn or studying electronics should skip arduinos..

[Anonymous No.660640]

>>660635
wat?

[Anonymous No.660641]

>>660634
And, I said your second point. Multiple times. Digital IS analog circuitry, with an abstraction in mind. That simple fact doesn't make analog better, it just makes it a requirement. Furthermore, it doesn't make those with knowledge of analog circuitry better than those with knowledge of digital circuitry.

Basically it's just a spectrum of abstraction, and each spot has its own challenges:

Semiconductor Tech/ EE
Analog Circuitry/EE
Digital Circuitry/CPRE
Software Integration/SOFTE
Software Theory/ COM SCI

Everything on that spectrum relies on the one before it, yes, but the world of engineering is once again based on building upon previous work. I can tell you that knowledge of BJT amplifier design will not help the development or understanding of discrete pathfinding algorithms. They are both complicated problems in their own right, so stop being so smug about understanding one and not the other.

[Anonymous No.660645]

>>660588
Me again. I might have been to hypotethical.
So here we have an example.
I build that to measure the temperature of a LED and give visible feedback to make sure it doesn't get to hot. Not intended as permanent solution or something.
Of course a normal thermometer might have been better but I didn't have one around that I coud easily attatch to the backside of the LED.

I realy don't want to be witty, but i don't know how to express this better in english:
Do I deserve hate for that?
I do understand that some bullshit is made for the sake of "using an arduino" and that is cancerous. But does it mean using an arduino is bad in general?

Also I often get praised even for stuff like this IRL. It somehow makes me feel bad that even such easy things are so rare these days that people think it's special.

[Anonymous No.660647]

>>660639
I'm actually on the fence about that particular thing. I [think] I was lucky enough to do AVR programming before I touched arduino. I know the atmega processors pretty well, and even dit assembly programming for the atmegas. When I went to Arduino and realized that it was literally "code in C/C++ and plug to USB" I was all like "Holy crap this is awesome."

I honestly can't say how my knowledge of it would have been had I gone in the reverse direction.

On one hand, it's a low-overhead [and low cost] way to get kids on both sides of software and hardware, on the other hand it is WAY dumbed down, and may lead to later frustration when "things don't work like they did on the Arduino"

I think it's a good topic for discussion, just this particular crowd seems to lack the "discussion" part and it's more of a raging "MY DICK IS THIS BIG" flamewar.

[Anonymous No.660649]

>>660645
See, right there is a perfect example of a good use of Arduino.

You want to measure something. You don't want to design an amazing system to measure something, you just want to measure it. Use the abstraction of the arduino, being able to quickly code on it, using the built in hardware and libraries for serial communication, set up your ANALOG (yes, analog) circuit for measuring the temperature, which goes into the built in ADC hardware and software libraries, all so you can get this measurement up and running with minimal extra hardware or overhead. Exactly what this should be for, bravo to you sir.

[Anonymous No.660655]

>>660647
it's a low-overhead [and low cost] way to get kids on both sides of software and hardware, on the other hand it is WAY dumbed down, and may lead to later frustration when "things don't work like they did on the Arduino"
things are getting intradesting here . you are a cool/smart guy but i have to go to bed;/ wife had a kid and we have a drs appointment early in the morning. will check back on this thread later. good night man

[Anonymous No.660657]

>>660655
=D Imagine if we could all just take a chill and not rage so quickly. Discourse is fun!

[Anonymous No.660773]

>>660620
Almost anyone can be taught to replace whole boards in a computer, it's a trivial skill compared to actually being able to design and build the boards themselves.. which takes a thorough knowledge of both digital AND linear electronics.

[Anonymous No.660781]

Lol @ grandpas getting mad.

>no you have to do it my way!11
>microcontrollers are too easyy!!!111

who gives a fuck nerd. some people are more interested in making shit work rather than figuring out the very basic low levels of electronics.

It's like someone saying you should learn ASM as your first programming language instead of something like python or ruby.

Get a grip. Times change, grandpa.

[Anonymous No.660797]

>>660386
Nah gramps, I feel like you just need a nap.

[Anonymous No.660801]

ITT: simultaneous Analog/Digital circlejerk

Electronics is moving more towards micros nowadays. Just the way it is. I KNOW how to build a full adder with transistors but fuck it will be huge and unwieldy.

Discrete circuits have their place but most of the time you're better served with a micro. Ever tried to talk SPI using nothing but a box of transistors? (I'd be interested to see if someone has).

For a surprisingly large number AVR/'duino is a stepping stone to MSP, ARM, PIC and the rest.

[Anonymous No.660807]

I think that something like Arduino, is a bit like Python. It's frown upon by the professionals, but on the other hand if you want to do something simple, where optimization is less important than the time it takes to get it to work, then it is the best solution.

If someone is a physics student and wants to do some basic signal processing, it's better to use Python than to make something in C, just because that's hip, and it runs in 0.00001 seconds instead of 0.01 .

The same thing applies here, if you have a measurement to make, where optimization (of the setup) is not important, the Arduino, or any similar product can be really helpful, and can easily expand the capabilities of someone who doesn't have a solid understanding in electronics and who otherwise wouldn't have the means to hire people, or learn the necessary things.

With that said, I'm always amazed at what some of the analog people can do, and I think that the disrespect they get from the new kids is just retarded. Pic related.

[Anonymous No.660812]

>>660282

>getting asspained over cheap electronic kits

Think of it this way, anything to get plebs into electronics is better than nothing

[Anonymous No.660831]

I'm sorry, but fuck off. Who of the programers know how to use a punch card? Maybe one in a 100. You know why? Because it's pointless ourdays. Why should i spend half a day making a circuit, when i can use 2$ arduino mikro to do that for me? Another thing is electrisions try to make themself feel important - hur dur i know how to make a radio. News flash - radio is already invented. Anyone who is bothered can learn to make it from scrach. Doesn't mean it's worth anything more than novelty knowledge.

[Anonymous No.660835]

>>660282
what is this TRANSISTOR faggotry? what happened to Vacuum Tubes and stuff? like building your own radios? am i the only one who thinks this is retarded? or am i getting old?

[Anonymous No.660836]

>>660831
>>660835
You are retarded. Punch cards and vacuum tubes have been _replaced_ by memory and transistors.

Transistors and low level electronics is still here and is still important.

[Anonymous No.660839]

>>660831
This
Even if I didn't know how to make a basic radio receiver, the answer is just a google search away.

[Anonymous No.660842]

>>660836
>vacuum tubes have been _replaced_ by memory and transistors.

You did read that story a few days ago about vacuum tubes being melded with transistors to fill the terahertz range, yea?

So no, try again.

[Anonymous No.660846]

>>660842
A) You dont get my point, which was the difference between obsolete and lower level things.
B) For all practical purposes they can be considered obsolete as they are now only used in certain niche aplications, like some military and music equipment.
C) If you think the vacuum tube you hold in your hand has anything to do with that research apart from providing an easy explanation for the layman... oh my.

[Anonymous No.660849]

>>660807
In what world is Python frowned upon by professionals?

EVE Online, Battlefield 2, Yahoo Maps, NASA, and some parts of Google's search engine use Python.

[Anonymous No.660851]

>>660613

How did it even come to half the price? Looking it up, you're paying 20 euro (~$27 USD) for an ATmega328 on what's little more than a breakout board. $30 + shipping buys you 10 bare 328s off of DigiKey, and that same $5 usbasp works with everything in the ATtiny and ATmega product lines...

Arduino is expensive as hell, from what I can see. That was one of the two major reasons I never even considered it over just using AVRs without the Arduino...uh...anything.

[Anonymous No.660854]

>>660849
Mostly /g/ I guess. Oh wait. Professionals and /g/...

Well, the sentiments toward python and arduino are still similar in nature, imo.

[Anonymous No.660855]

>660842
Still.. That says a lot.
Srsl guys. Face the fact that everyone has been tought thysics in middle school and everyone understands electric circuits. The fact that you know a little more of them doesn't make you an ee. The argument that there wouldn't be computers without ee is just lougthable. Computers are already. And please don't give me that bullshit that you could build a octacore procesor,64gb ram, 1gb ssd computer. That takes a serious group of electritians to design, not a single neckbeard.
This is the brave new world and you will only achieve something if you think of something new many people want. I doubt that all the world is waiting for someone who can count the rings on a resistor and match it with a crystal.

[Anonymous No.660857]

>>660855

Wat.

You are lecturing the rest of us, yet obviously don't know jack shit about the subject on which you're lecturing.

No computers without electronic engineers? Yeah, fuck off. What do you think they run off, unicorn farts and fairy dust?

>And please don't give me that bullshit that you could build a octacore procesor,64gb ram, 1gb ssd computer. That takes a serious group of electritians to design, not a single neckbeard

again, wut. An ELECTRICIAN deals with higher voltage wiring generally speaking. I could BUILD an 8 core/64GB/SSD box, but designing those parts is a different matter, and yes, any neckbeard with enough time and VHDL knowledge probably could.

Get your ass back to >>>/g/.

[Anonymous No.660858]

>>660801
>Ever tried to talk SPI using nothing but a box of transistors? (I'd be interested to see if someone has).

Actually, I have a half-baked idea of building a quadrature counter out of nothing but discretes. I got as far as modelling the 16-bit adder before realizing "this is going to take a shitton of transistors and there's no way in hell I'm going to assemble this by hand" and shelving the project until I finish my pick and place.

Unsurprisingly, digital electronics turns out to be a good way to deal with digital logic.

[Anonymous No.660859]

>>660851
Get the clone one.
Nothing beats $3 Arduino Pro Mini from ebay.

[Anonymous No.660862]

>>660645
This. Just use what you have around to get done what you want to get done.

[Anonymous No.660863]

>660857 i'm a software project manager so forgive me. The point i'm trying to make is that electricians (or ee as you call yourself) are dirt cheat. All the hardware is allready theare. If you can make it better - great as long it is from a respectable manufacturer with necesary certificates as no one buys brandless these days. In my opinion value is fullfiling peoples needs, not knowing how chip works.

[Anonymous No.660865]

>660857
Any midleschooler knows how to BUILD a pc from parts. I mean could you build an octacore procesor someone would want to buy from scratch? No? So why should anyone respect you any more that any other arduino kid?

[Anonymous No.660866]

>>660863
Not who you replied to, but what in the flying fuck. The only remotely valid statement I can gather from that load of horseshit is that practial knowledge is better than theoretical knowledge, which yeah, sounds good, but irl you will find yourself making costly mistakes if you don't understand the basics of your field, regardless of what that is.

[Anonymous No.660871]

>660866
Wrong board to say this, but if you want to make something worthwile you can't make it alone. If you need some circuits in your project - just pay some indian guy 50$. It's just not a viable comodity anymore. Sorry for the engrish.

[Anonymous No.660877]

>>660866
I think this guy may have had a few of us.

Who trolls /diy/? It's like stabbing a baby rabbit in the face.

[Anonymous No.660881]

>>660420

(I'm not the same anon you replied to)

Well, you can do that with a Raspberry Pi...

Also picrelated is a radio emitter I just built.

[Anonymous No.660882]

>>660863
'Project managers' are just paper shufflers who don't know how to do a goddamn thing themselves, otherwise they'd be the hardware and software engineers on a project and do the actual work. I'm sure you're great with things like Microsoft Office applications, and make a mean Powerpoint presentation for the suits to gawk at, but you don't have a fucking clue how anything works, what goes into making it work, or anything other than shuffling papers and other crap like that, so none of your opinions on this subject mean Jack Shit.

For those of you in this thread who are NOT useless paper shufflers but don't already know this: 'Project Managers' are a dime a dozen, they're middle management at it's worst, most of the time. I've been at companies where we'd have 2-3 of them over the course of one project alone, they keep getting fired for being idiots. Meanwhile those of us who actually do the work hum right along like nothing's wrong because we have actual value. To be fair once in a while you come across a PM who isn't a complete idiot and actually facilitates the process rather than mucking it all up, but then again they've usually got an engineering background when this is the case. The run-of-the-mill PM is a 'business major', which in my not-so-humble opinion is about as useful a major as 'womens studies'.

[Anonymous No.660885]

>>660420
>You can't claim to be working with real electronics

Yes, and what exactly is your point? Go on I'll wait.

[Anonymous No.660896]

>>660423
>RF engineers laugh and sneer at 'digital' engineers because they don't really know much
RF engineer might have broad definition.

Many don't works with circuit design, instead they works with frequency analyzer, designing cell site, studying/simulating antenna radiation pattern, etc.
Pretty much electromagnetic theory rather than circuit theory.

[Anonymous No.660900]

>>660282
>>660896
84 posts in 24 hours.
Has to be a /diy/ record

I'm an electronicsfag from the '80's and while annoyed by someone trying to use a uC that doesn't even understand ohms law, I appreciate being able to just hook everything to the uC and work it out with software.

[Anonymous No.660914]

>>660900
There is nothing wrong with using a micro. In fact it is pretty much expected of you to know how to use one. At my uni actual digital electronics professors look down upon arduino, but everyone knows you have to be a very good programmer.

In engineering you will use the best tool for the job, wether it is just connecting a 555, programming a uc, using an FPGA, matlab, discrete components or any combination of them.

Real engineering is about optimization. A 555 is dirt cheap, can be easily configured and implemented, however if you were to need several of them, the space on a board will become important and at that time you may get the job done with a single 8 pin micro.

[Anonymous No.660915]

Allrighty this is the only electronics related thread so here i go:

I have an UV EPROM, TMS27C010. I need to know whether if i step from address N to N+1( like from address b11000 to b11001, only changing the A0 line, form even to odd) will i get invalid junk data before the new valid data? or does that only happen when higher address bits are changed?

the outputs will drive flipflops so a tiny pulse of invalid data (longer than 10-20ns) might trigger them and cause problems...

[Anonymous No.660924]

>>660885
What point? If you're admitting that all you are is a code monkey and that actual electronics are important, digital isn't everything, then we're good. If on the other hand you're going to insist that digital is all anyone needs and that non-digital is 'old fashioned' and unnecessary, then we're going to continue to argue because that's wrong.

[Anonymous No.660925]

>>660915
Just find those values from the timing diagram in the datasheet. The time between providing a new address and valid data being output should be only a couple microseconds. It's the same timing if you change the address from 1 to 2, or from 1 to 10000.

[Anonymous No.660926]

>>660896
..no, I'm talking about RF engineers that design entire RF systems from the components on up.

[Anonymous No.660929]

>>660881
Nice work. Nice build quality. 10/10 would solder with.

[Anonymous No.660931]

>>660925
>It's the same timing if you change the address from 1 to 2, or from 1 to 10000.

i would like to believe that

id love to see a transistor level schematic of an eprom like im using

[Anonymous No.660933]

>>660900
>>660914
Nobody is saying, 'never use a microcontroller for anything', we're saying 'don't use a microcontroller for EVERYTHING, or even think that you can or should use one for everything'.

If someone only ever needs to send and receive email, browse a few simple web pages, and really nothing else, you don't sell or build them a gamer's computer with an outrageous graphics card (or cards) and the fastest processor on the planet, you sell/build them a modest machine suited to their needs. If you're not planning on participating in the Dakar Rally and only drive on paved city streets to go to the supermarket and church on Sunday, then you don't need a jacked-up 4WD machine that looks like it's out of Mad Max, you get a modest little sedan. If all you're doing is flashing an LED, you don't need a microcontroller, you need a simple oscillator. If all you want to do is press a button and have a light or a relay go on in a certain amount of time afterwards, you don't need a computer, you need a simple timer IC. If you want to collect data from multiple weather sensors and provide it over USB to a host system running software that displays the data in a human-understandable manner, then a microcontroller is suited to the job. If you want to receive and listen to radio transmissions, you have choose between a traditional linear electronics approach, or software-defined radio approach, both are perfectly valid and both have pros and cons, but in either case there MUST be some RF electronics involved to get the signal from the antenna to either the detector or to the ADC's input, and you can't get around that. These are just examples off the top of my head but hopefully you get the point.

[Anonymous No.660934]

>>660915
> a tiny pulse of invalid data (longer than 10-20ns) might trigger them and cause problems...

Worrying about things like that is a sign of design flaws. A circuit should be designed so it's not super sensitive to the timing of a component. Can you show me your circuit?

[Anonymous No.660938]

>>660915
What do you mean, 'the output will drive flip flops', are you using them as latches and clocking this data into them? Do they pass data while the clock line is in it's active state or only on it's rising edge? Generally I'd expect latches to latch in what's on the datalines on the clocks falling edge. Compare the timing diagram for you latches to the timing diagrams for your eprom.

[Anonymous No.660942]

>>660933
This is hypothetical thread.

Nobody post schematics to show their supposedly superior solution than said alternative.

[Anonymous No.660946]

>>660934
>Worrying about things like that is a sign of design flaws

Thats why im trying to find out whats going on between neighbouring address changes, but according to >>660925
it doesnt matter, id love to see proof of that tho

cant show circuit, basicly theres a clock and some rarely changing lines connected to the eprom as the address, the outputs should change without invalid pulses to reliably control the flipflops

if it doesnt work, i have a workaround for it but i dont like that

>>660938
for example D0 output would drive a D-type flipflops clock input, data to the flipflop comes from somewhere else, but the invalid data region would perhaps trigger some unwanted clocks


i have hard time to explain it so ill just give up and see how it works out in a working circuit

[Anonymous No.660955]

>>660946
>for example D0 output would drive a D-type flipflops clock input, data to the flipflop comes from somewhere else,

Say the data at address 0xABCD is 0b00111111. You go from this address to 0xABCF which has a value of 0b01011111. D0 is 1 in both cases. There will be no pulse to trigger the flip flow.

[Anonymous No.660964]

>>660955
thanks

[Anonymous No.660984]

>>660955
I thought EPROMs were like DRAMs, and internally they used multiplexing and and output latch? Thusly data was only valid during the hold period, and between two hold periods the latch was unlatched and literally anything could be on the data pins?

[Anonymous No.660990]

>>660915
Reading the datasheet that came from, Tv(a) is not drawn to scale: the actual number is zero.

If 100ns blips might cause the world to end, you might consider pushing the output through your own buffer and only reading when it's valid?

[Anonymous No.660998]

>>660946
OK.. if you're worried about spurious pulses and things need to be 100% synchronous, then maybe you need a register to clock the data from your eprom through so you can count on the data being stable.

[Anonymous No.661019]

>>660579
Any real engineer you found can get their heads around writing shitty code. Dont act all smuglish, all specializations have a reason to exist. Back to the point: Arduino is a tool for hobbysts and artists, same as Processing, the IDE Arduino is based on. Processing is a shitty language, but its easy to write impressive results on it for the beginner. It encourages learning. Same with Arduino. Of course, Arduinos do nothing a couple attinys cant do for far cheap, and for most tasks a microcontroller or CPLD is not necesary at all or even convenient (radio related comes to mind). But all things have their niches. Do you bitch at kids running on bikes with side wheels cause it makes them slower and gives no benefit?

[Anonymous No.661032]

>>661019
You know, I'm pretty sure there is a clinical term for someone who always deals in absolutes, but it escapes me for the moment, so let's just say you're a dickhead and leave it at that, shall we?

Of course it's also possible you simply did not read the rest of the thread. The subject is: Arduinos are not actually electronics in any substantial sense, they are toys, and just because you can make a light flash or something with an Arduino doesn't mean that you know electronics, and that furthermore you don't need any sort of microcontroller in a device in order for it to be 'valid' or however you want to say it, and that actual electronics, with discrete components is at least as important, if not more so, that just digital electronics. The general consensus agrees with this. I suggest you slow down and read the thread before commenting again so you don't put your other foot in your mouth, too.

[Anonymous No.661048]

>>661032
I dont understand your rant at all. I'll avoid falling into the namecalling trap, and ask you to explain what do you mean.

On the Arduino subject, sorry to let you down, but toys are electronics. You can see them as an inferior form of electronics, and I will agree with you, same way I /dev/null every piece of code written on anything else but C from a EE. But that doesnt mean it doesnt have a purpose. You state it DOESNT. But thays wrong, its a cheap kit for kids, hobbyists and artists to build blinky lights, buzzers, or retrodecompositional hypercubistic premodernist art pieces of buzzy blinky lights. I own an Arduino. Ive used it to build a woodcutting CNC. Could I have used another chipset? Sure. Would I have a woodcutting CNC if it werent for the modifyied Marlin libraries I use and Arduino? hell no. Ive been planing for a while to build mesh like comms protocol system using the DMAs method of signal generation of the Pi. Is it a good method? No, but thats not the point. I want a easy to use board that lots of people have and know how to use, increasing the potential people able to use it. Remember, people who run Pi XMBC servers wouldnt have a server otherwise. Same with arduino.

[Anonymous No.661051]

>>660807
more like basic.

Newfags do it and get irreversable brain damage and can't think with portals anymore.

[Anonymous No.661093]

>>661048
Oh for fuck's sake.. how many ways do I have to say it?

>kids on 4chan play with Arduino shit
>kids on 4chan think that's all there is to ALL electronics
>kids on 4chan think you can't do ANYTHING with a goddamn microcontroller
>kids on 4chan think you're trolling them if you try to convince them you CAN do anything of value WITHOUT a microcontroller
>OP starts this thread
>Some of us are saying 'more to electronics than Arduino/microcontrollers/digital
>Some still aren't smart/educated/experienced enough to understand we're right
>We try to explain
>We get argued with by 'inexperienced individuals' who just don't seem to get it no matter how many ways we explain or examples we give
>Repeat ad nauseum

Everyone has already said everything that needs to be said on the subject. Whether you or anyone else wants to accept it is your business.

[Anonymous No.661096]

>>661048
I'm not even going to read all that crap you wrote.

How many ways do I have to say it?

>kids on 4chan play with Arduino shit
>kids on 4chan think that's all there is to ALL electronics
>kids on 4chan think you can't do ANYTHING without using a goddamn microcontroller
>kids on 4chan think you're trolling them if you try to convince them you CAN do anything of value WITHOUT a microcontroller
>OP starts this thread
>Some of us are saying 'more to electronics than Arduino/microcontrollers/digital
>Some still aren't smart/educated/experienced enough to understand we're right
>We try to explain
>We get argued with by 'inexperienced individuals' who just don't seem to get it no matter how many ways we explain or examples we give
>Repeat ad nauseum

Everyone has already said everything that needs to be said on the subject. Whether you or anyone else wants to accept it is your business.

[Anonymous No.661118]

>>660807
nobody uses C. it's all C++ or visual fag# which are all different languages.

[Anonymous No.661119]

all this faggotry. this is like people who paint for a living getting butthurt over people buying 50$ landscapes from the farmers market HURR DURR ITS NOT ART FAG Y U NO BUY MY CHICKEN ON HEAD FOR KILODOLLARS?

[Anonymous No.661126]

>>661096
There are just no reason to not use microcontrollers, at least for /diy/ stuff.

[Anonymous No.661151]

>>660857
So why do I devote my time and energy learning about Vacuum Tubes when all this other shiny newer brilliant technology is only a Digikey or Mouser catalog away?

- It's challenging, getting an audio or radio circuit running to spec, on old technology.
- it's dangerous, high voltage B+ lines pushing hundreds of volts, and hundreds of mA.
- it's exciting, having that healthy fear and respect for electricity and having to calculate every move working on a hot circuit.

I have mad respect for those folks trying to bring ICE back around too, knowing what they are working with

[Anonymous No.661152]

>>661118

>nobody uses C

kek

[Anonymous No.661157]

>>660854
He didn't mean professionals—that term lost its meaning a long time ago. Most of those companies have reams of idiots that basically get paid for copying python snippets off the interwebs because nobody is left there that can understand what they're doing. They infliterate and breed until the company goes under.

Python, too, was written in C.

Anybody else thinking of writing another scripting lanuage with your "ideas" about how it's going to save the world from real-world complexities? Please don't.

[Anonymous No.661158]

>>661126
I ant your opinion on
>>660645

[Anonymous No.661160]

>>661151
It's not that challenging, just poorly documented.

[Anonymous No.661162]

>>661157
If you honestly don't see the usecases where Python > C/C++, go back to >>>/g/ and your desktopthread.

[Anonymous No.661172]

20 or 30 years ago, kids used to buy Forrest Mims books from Radio Shack and buy little kits to build simple circuits. It was how a lot of people got their first taste of electronics. Nowadays, with computers being cheap and accessible, kids have the option of getting their first taste of microcontrollers and basic coding. It's really no different from those old kits, or from the "electronics lab" toys you could get way back in the 60's and 70's. It gives people a chance to learn something. If they think arduinos are the cat's ass, that means they're enjoying themselves and using their brains. The world isn't going to forget how to build circuits. As long as mankind can control electricity, somebody out there will have to know how to build circuits.

[Anonymous No.661177]

>>661172
Take a look at this thread though. There are spoiled brats who refuse to learn electronics because building a NOT gate out of one transistor is for stupid old people. Twenty years ago they would be trying to learn new things, but now they solve everything with a development board.

[Anonymous No.661178]

>>661177
I got a fun tale of my dad that goes here.
He was thought some nice stuff i'd actually like to learn too. He used to be able to build smal controlers using logic IC's. Some day he was chalanged to complete a task with a limited amount if IC's and he ended up missing one NOT gate. He tried to do that one gate with a transistor and failed miserably. At the end he managed to save some space somwhere else.
By now he forgot almost everything he learned though because shit didn't get used in his work.

[Anonymous No.661381]

>>660438
>taking the time to use the correct character in the word Nazgul
you're alright.

[Anonymous No.661390]

>>660420
Who givs a shit? Nobody's fooling with microcontrollers because they want to make radios. They're using microcontrollers because they want to make robots, where it's absolutely the right tool for the job. There's no reason to expect a hobbyist to have, or want to have, the same level of general knowledge as a professional. A hobbyist is going to learn the specifics of what they want to do.

[Anonymous No.661439]

Well I just bought my arduino to do some thing and get into electronic, I do this because I am a completely noob in electronics, I barely know what a resistance is.
I downloaded a few electronic manuals, so I can test it on arduino, then I want to do my own circuits and boards, and do soldering like a real man

How do you see it?

[Anonymous No.661443]

Not everyone who wants to fuck around with electricity wants to be an EE. It's ideal to be able to do things without a microcontroller but not everyone wants to or has the time to. If you think future engineers won't know how to make circuits without microcontrollers, you're a conservative dipshit and your point is void.

[Anonymous No.661572]

ok so tell me which of my current arduino projects are ethical and which aren't:

- reading and decrypting IR codes from air conditioner remotes and then using them to turn my AC unit on and off at regular intervals at night

- weather station with multiple sensors that sends data over the network to a server that logs the data and then shows it as a web page

- playing music over a buzzer by parsing strings of notes converted from midi

- IR motion sensor hooked to a wireless transmitter, arduino is the receiver and upon trigger of the sensor plays a sound over a buzzer and then optionally notifies a listening computer over the network

[Anonymous No.661586]

>>660411
>why spend 20 pence on a timer when I can spend 10 pounds on a microcontroller?

[Anonymous No.661590]

>>661586
Talk is cheap

Post your schematic and we'll decide if your BOM match your price.

[Anonymous No.661599]

This is the most angry, garbage thread on /diy/ and serves no purpose except for dick waving and whining.

[Anonymous No.661636]

If you cant go with the flow of the ocean get out of the water, Arduino and other somesuch templates and ease-of-use items are to be the absolute most popular selection for developers around the world from here on out. Why reinvent the wheel when you can reinvent the starship instead?(joke)

I knew a programmer once like you, he wrote all of his shit. Even though he need not. I wa salways like "Bradley, why do you do this?" and he said that it was his pride. But this is work and there is no pride in work. So get with the program, I say

[Anonymous No.661643]

>>661636
if you rewrite everything from scratch you get less work done, which means less money

[Anonymous No.661654]

>>660288
To start learning.

I'm putting together a LED sign for my company. Yes, it's relatively trivial for an Arduino. So what?

[Anonymous No.661843]

I was a kid that was interested in electronics a few years ago. I started on Arduino and some Python. I still use both but I'm also messing around with all the "traditional" type of electronics now (op amps, ICs, logic gates, etc) and programming in C. I guess I just don't get the hate cause I see arduino and stuff like that as just stepping stool into the world of electronics.

Like some kid might hook up an arduino, make an LED blink and his curiosity will peak. They'll probably go on to learn more about programming or electronics or even both. It just makes it all a bit more accessible. If they're not impressed then they probably won't go into that field. It's not really a big deal, guys. All that shit can all be learned. Lots of "techies" or w/e complain about the general population not knowing shit about this stuff but when someone goes along and makes it easy to get into you guys still throw tantrums. Like wtf? I'm feeling a sort of "OH NO MY SUPER SEKREET CLUB IS BEING INFRINGED UPON" vibe in this thread.

Take it easy, guys.

[Anonymous No.661863]

>>661572
>- IR motion sensor hooked to a wireless transmitter, arduino is the receiver and upon trigger of the sensor plays a sound over a buzzer and then optionally notifies a listening computer over the network

You're either making a stop-fapping-someone's-approaching alarm, or wake-up-the-boss-is-coming-to-your-office alarm

[Anonymous No.661886]

>>661863
ding, the first one.

I already have a simple wireless one I bought but I wanted to make my own

[Anonymous No.661891]

>>661843
This.
I work in a metal apliances factory and usually deal with mechanical and electrical "engies" that come to check PLCs and robots.

I was talking to this guy about arduino and his aprendice was
>"OH NO MY SUPER SEKREET CLUB IS BEING INFRINGED UPON"
old engi was cool with people "learning how hard it is and apreciating his work"
kid was a fag.

If I think about a bunch of "enthusiasts", the SEKREET CLUB feeling skyrockets and explains a lot.

>>661863
hahaha holy /diy/nosaurs

[Anonymous No.661913]

>>660781

even if it works doesn't mean it's needlessly klunky and overpowered because you have a giant overkill board for something that could be done with a few cheap components. It's like putting a formula one engine on a moped. It works, but it's needlessly big and overpowered for the job, on top of being needlessly awkward and overladen with unnecessary stuff.

[Anonymous No.661935]

Heres my 2cents.

When I was young, I taught myself programming fundamentals using Game maker and RPG Maker. When the drag and drop shit got too tedious I learnt how to write code in their respective languages. That was all well and good but I wanted to understand HOW events were times, HOW graphics appeared on the screen so I studied that. Next was HOW high level languages equate to machine instructions. So on and so forth with me learning more as I progressed down through the PC to the bare metal of it.

Recently I got a couple arduinos for playing with electronics, I have the programming background so I was interested in programming constructs in the physical world.

I've left the arduinos behind now and am programming the atmel chips using a usbasp.

Looking at PIC chips also but I don't see the reason I'd have for using them.

Yet.

Point is I learn this way because it is what works for me. The drive to understand is always present so I've never seen it as a bad thing.

Its like just as there are script kiddies there are also arduino people. It's not a terrible thing. Electronics isnt coming to an end. These types of people have always and will always exist in various fields.

Make a thread showcasing a neat analog circuit and I'm gonna build and study that shit til I understand it.

Make this thread and nothing at all happens.

[Anonymous No.661936]

>>660301

This is not a digital circuit.

[Anonymous No.663264]

>>660411
this is the faggotry OP is talking about.

you can get a decade counter and some 7 segment controller for 2 dollars.
>and also learn something on the way

[Anonymous No.663309]

>>660420
> real electronics

[Anonymous No.663310]

>>661936
Explain how it isn't not a digital circuit

[Anonymous No.663311]

Can anyone suggest how to learn more about analog circuits? I know of a bunch of analog circuits, but I have no idea what values of resistors/capacitors/inductors to use. Point me in the direction of a good book, if somebody could?

I've fished around a bit. It's hard to find something that doesn't just give you directions to make a circuit. I want to actually design them.

[Anonymous No.663326]

>>663311
A few books I own:

Foundations of Analog and Digital Electronic Circuits by Agarwal & Lang - for fundamentals, especially concerning resistors capacitors and inductors. I dabbled in electronics for years, then I read/studied this book, and realized I didn't know shit before.

Electronic Devices And Circuit Theory by Boylestad & Nashelsky - discusses jfets, mosfets, bjts, diodes, opamps, filters, feedback, oscillaters, and more.

The Art of Electronics - broad overview of electronics, makes for great reading. Dated but much of it is still relevant.

[Anonymous No.663331]

>>660282
This is still relevant in guitar amplification. However, it seems most (tube) amps are all just variations of one or another.

[Anonymous No.663333]

>>660380
THANK YOU

[Anonymous No.663334]

>>660282

it's an easier entry.

Learning circuit analysis / assembly is much more difficult than googling up some code and plugging some things in.

Understand that the cutting edge of human knowledge builds upon the previous cutting edge, making the old look like childs play.

e.g. The modern day laptop vs the commodore 64. So much more powerful, yet so much more accessible for the novice.

[Anonymous No.663341]

>>663334

And now we know why no one will have a job in the future and a stable state model will need to be adopted.

[Zdenek No.663352]

>>660282
I agree completely. I build things with logic gates, preferably CMOS4000. I used to do transistors, it's possible, but takes more time. I like to get things done and those gates are dirt cheap. Perhaps a better bang for the buck than the same circuit with discrete transistors.

[Anonymous No.663384]

>>660657
>not rage so quickly
OP literally started with a rage post, and overall a condescending attitude for people that don't understand "true electronics"

[Anonymous No.663438]

>>660288
That's just a beginner exercise for babbys. An arduino is an educational toy and can be kind of nifty to enhance your home.

[Anonymous No.664201]

I think you guys are being retarded. The "Arduino to flash a light" thing isn't supposed to be a finished product, it's supposed to be the "hello world" of microcontroller programming. Something simple you copy and paste from a Google search to get started and make sure your tools are set up properly.

You can write hello world in assembly language, with no language runtime, just two syscalls on Linux (sys_write and sys_exit). Or, if you have no OS, it's not that much harder with BIOS calls or setting up a text mode and writing the characters yourself. That doesn't mean I should shit on the people writing their first hello world in Python or whatever, because efficiency isn't the fucking point of the exercise.

[Ellie No.664688]

>>660282
>what is this ARDUINO faggotry?

I bought a Robosapien at the thrift store today for $3 with no remote control. I added a little Arduino backpack brain transplant and now he is the second member of my tiny robot army.

(The first is an OOpic with continuous rotation servos and a intermittently defective bumper switch.)

At this rate I should be done taking over the world around the same time as the analog vs. microcontroller, great taste vs. less filling, and vi vs. emacs arguments wrap up.