off-grid power generation

[Anonymous No.52661]

My friends and I built a small log cabin in the woods and we're trying to figure out a way to get electricity to it. We have a stream nearby and we want to build some time of hydroelectric generator. Basically, the plan so far is to build some sort of water turbine and use that to turn a DC motor with some diodes connected to it to only allow current to flow to the battery. Does anyone have any experience with hydroelectric generation or any type of off-grid power generation? We're open to any good idea that will power our cabin with renewable resources.

[None !!k0TcO8v1WX2 No.52666]

i don't know, go to a hardware store and ask them

[Anonymous No.52667]

http://www.otherpower.com/scotthydro1.html

[Anonymous No.52686]

Have you considered solar power? Solar power is pretty shitty as a long term power solution, but it could be used to charge, and maintain some lead acid batteries. This can provide basic power for a limited duration (such as a weekend in the woods). Once depleted, they could charge while you are away from the cabin during the week until the next time you go up to the cabin. If you wanted to go nuts, you could use multiple forms of power. Solar and hydroelectric to charge batteries, and a generator to be used in a pinch.

[Anonymous No.52687]

>>52686
Solar is great if you're rich, otherwise, wind and hydro are the way to go.

[Anonymous No.52694]

>>52687
People who are poor don't usually have a log cabin the woods unless that is their only shelter.

[Anonymous No.52697]

>>52687
Hello...wind power usually does not work in the WOODS.

[Anonymous No.52702]

>>52686
Yeah, we're not rich. It's just a 10'x20' cabin we built in the woods for hunting, camping, hanging out, whatever.

[Anonymous No.52704]

waterwheel, solar panel, wind wheel. Calculate which generates the most electricity and go for that.

[Anonymous No.52707]

>>52697
Are you retarded?

[Anonymous No.52717]

>>52697
wtf?

Thats how everybody gets water here, the same as a windpower but instead of being a generator, is like apump, mechanical, not electrical. it moves water from underground to the ground.

And yes they put this things on the wood, desert, farms.

[Anonymous No.52719]

>>52707
Wow...you sure showed me. That is entirely tall enough to get above all trees known to man and is definitely cheaper than few solar cells and lead acid batteries.

[Anonymous No.52720]

>>52719
It sure is.

[Anonymous No.52725]

>>52720
What was the cost of that project?

[Anonymous No.52727]

>>52725
"The total cost of this project - I figure the machine itself cost me around $1800 to build (magnets, wire, steel - and water jet costs) and the tower comes in around $3000. It would've been a bit more expensive and a lot more time consuming without all the help from friends and neighbors... local and online."

[Anonymous No.52732]

How about make a steam powered generator?

Burn wood to heat house/cook AND produce steam to power a turbine and charge the batteries

[Anonymous No.52734]

>>52732
I've thought about something like this...
Use a turbocharger and alternator from a car and turn it with high pressure steam.
Would be pretty sweet.

[Anonymous No.52737]

>>52734
if youre only going to chill and weekends and shit why not just build a sffae fire in the middle then just get drunk and have fun without electricity (not in a gay way unless youre into that)

[Anonymous No.52738]

>>52720
How many watts do you generate on average?

[Anonymous No.52739]

>>52734
Right? Use the steam to produce electricity and the released heat to get hot water, cooking, heating the house...

[Radiofag No.52742]

>>52732
Meet the wood gasifier.

No liquid fuel required.

Wood turns into a gaseous gasoline substitute when superheated in an oxygen devoid environment.

You kinda need a welder to make one. A $50 harborfreight stick welder is good enough.

[Anonymous No.52744]

>>52738
"The best output I've seen yet is just over 3KW in 'moderate winds' (we've not had any real winds here yet) and in low winds it seems excellent."

[Anonymous No.52749]

>>52719

heh, did you really not see this coming?
>>52720

first pic was obv just showing the scale of it, what did you think that sideways pole was

[Anonymous No.52752]

>>52744
Wouldn't vertical-axis wind turbines be easier to build and work better on low winds?

[Anonymous No.52759]

http://homepower.com/article/?file=HP105_pg30_New

[Radiofag No.52765]

Gasifier in action.

[Anonymous No.52768]

First, you need to decide what design you're going with, which depends on the nature of the stream you have available to you.

>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pelton_wheel
>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Francis_turbine
>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kaplan_turbine
>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Banki_turbine
>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gorlov_helical_turbine
>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jonval_turbine

[Anonymous No.52783]

>>52661
Well basiclly what you want to do is nothing else than a giant dynamo. You need a turbine of some sort (you know these old flowermills? A huge wheel in the water should do) on the river end, and the actual generator on the other end.

Now this is strongly simplifyed, but if you are able to make windpower a few adjustments should make the steady water power supply work just fine.

[Anonymous No.52840]

make a small pond fed by the stream and use the water pressure behind the pond wall to turn a small dc water pump (using pump as a dc generator) that charges a set of 12/24/48v batteries. then use a power inverter to get ac.

[Anonymous No.52842]

You could use a cars alternator to generate power. Just make a wheel and a shaft to spin the alternator

[Anonymous No.53078]

>>52842
A DC motor is a more efficient means of generating power than a car's alternator. I already researched that.

[Anonymous No.53103]

>>53078
yeah, but what he's talking about is basically a way of getting it for cheap. Like going to a scrapyard and getting a couple of them.

in any case wind or water are your best alternatives and they are interchangeable which is also a plus

[Capt B'Tardo No.53704]

A waterwheel would be your best bet, hook that to a car alternator then to your battery bank. The alternator has a built in voltage regulator so it won't overcharge the batteries. Buy yourself some household lights fixtures and get some 12 camper bulbs.

[Anonymous No.53713]

If you're not trying to be a tree-hugger, then just get a gas generator!

If you want to power electronics, or save fuel, get a generator with an inverter. The inverter does two things: it conditions the power, and it allows the engine to speed up or slow down depending on demand (and as a result are usually quieter too). Generators that don't have inverters have to run at 3600RPM regardless of how many watts you need, but are half the cost.

[Anonymous No.53716]

>>53078
>dc
>more efficient

Maybe if you're running the power down a MAXIMUM length of a few feet. DC hates any sort of distance travel, excepting HVDC.

This is why we use AC for power transmission to homes.

If you don't know this, you shouldn't be attempting to build a power system.

Pic related - what happens to your shit if you try running DC more than a few feet (and this is only at 12W.)

[Anonymous No.53731]

>>53713
Along these lines, just learn to make biomethane (e.g. like the Jean Pain method) and modify a generator to run off of it.

[Anonymous No.53734]

>>53716
Actually we use AC in the grid more because it is easily stepped up or down using only transformers (DC would require switching converters that waste a lot of power).

[Anonymous No.53741]

>>53716

That pic has nothing to do with DC over distances. That pic is because the two shitty Chinese capacitors in the foreground failed.

Low voltage over any distance is a fail, only because you have to push so much more current to deliver a given power and ohmic losses are proportional to current, not voltage.

incur power losses due to having to push more current rather than mo

[Anonymous No.53743]

>>53716

That pic has nothing to do with DC over distances. That pic is because the two shitty Chinese capacitors in the foreground failed.

Low voltage over any distance is a fail, only because you have to push so much more current to deliver a given power and ohmic losses are proportional to current, not voltage.

[Anonymous No.53757]

>>53743

You are sorely unaware of what you're talking about.

The output (DC) side of those boards has TWENTY FEET OF WIRE to go to an LED array.

This is a DESIGN FLAW caused by poor knowledge of DC power, NOT shitty capacitors (if you'll note, the resistors to the left are totally burned out, as well as the diodes to the left of that.)

I replaced those power supplies with the SAME exact ones, using only three feet of cord out on the DC side - ZERO problems, the power supplies don't even get warm.

My DC knowledge, let me show you it (pic related.)

When you can design anything similar, feel free to talk.

[Anonymous No.53764]

>>53757

Durrr. I'm no electrician, just a computer programmer with some computer engineering as a hobby, but I've run 2A of DC current all throughout a house (hundreds of feet) to light up a series of high power RGB LEDs from an arduino and been totally fine. Done a lot of smaller projects with about a hundred feet of DC wire travel distance and no burned out boards to speak of.

[Anonymous No.53765]

>>53757
so... you designed a pcb, soldered some high power leds and hooked them to some drivers you... bought.
Cool. Cool.
Do you know the value of the resistance of the 10m copper wire? Do you also know the resistance of a 1.5m wire? You should compare those two.

[Anonymous No.53766]

>>53757

That's not evidence, that's an anecdote.

Pic related. I have degrees in electrical engineering. And I happen to design LED lighting fixtures. What exactly are your qualifications?

[Anonymous No.53768]

>>53766

Ah, right, your experience is in failing. Well, you can learn a lot by failing.

[Anonymous No.53770]

>>53757
You are pretty shit at soldering too. What a mess!

[Anonymous No.53773]

>>53768
What are you talking about?

[Anonymous No.53776]

>>53770
I don't see any problem with his soldering. Let's concentrate on his real failings; that makes the game more fun and it's not like we're going to run out.

We have a self-taught EE here, which is commendable, but he's superstitious and likes making up theories for 'why things break' without testing them. That is contemptible. That burns down houses and gets people killed. So I have a beef with that.

[Anonymous No.53777]

>>53766

>I have degrees in electrical engineering. And I happen to design LED lighting fixtures. What exactly are your qualifications?

Photobiology, Electrical Engineering, Mechanical Engineering, and oh, hey, I design LED fixtures all goddamned day long (pic related, and so is this link - http://tinypic.com/player.php?v=2il1ydc&s=7 )

I'm also the current light designer for H2OFarm.co.uk and EcogroLED.

What VOLTAGE was that 2A of DC current pushing? As stated before, HVDC won't have as much of an issue with distance as low-voltage DC.

>>53765

What's the cross-sectional diameter of the wire, first? Then I'll answer.

Oh, wait, you're just spouting off questions without giving away the necessary information needed to answer your question. Nimrod.

[Anonymous No.53778]

>>53757

heya sorry to interrupt your internet showdown here but i was just wondering what am i looking at here?

[Anonymous No.53780]

NERD FIGGGHTTTTT STAND THE FUCK BACK

shit just got real

[Anonymous No.53783]

>>53770
>shit soldering job
>no solder available to see as that's a back-mount PCB

Are you sure you're even in the right conversation, or know what you're talking about? That's a board soldered by reflow SMT proceses (aka a MACHINE.)

[Anonymous No.53784]

[Anonymous No.53785]

>>53757

One question: did you have a switch somewhere in that long supply wire?

[Anonymous No.53786]

>>53777

>Oh, wait, you're just spouting off questions without giving away the necessary information needed to answer your question. Nimrod.

I was asking about the 20ft wire you replaced retard!

[Anonymous No.53789]

>>53786

>Do you know the value of the resistance of the 10m copper wire?

>10m

He never mentioned that sort of distance anywhere in his statement, retard.

[Anonymous No.53792]

>>53778
he grows pot in his closet and that makes him an engineer.
kids these days...

[Anonymous No.53790]

>>53777
>>53777
>Photobiology, Mechanical Engineering,

irrelevant

> Electrical Engineering

In that case I weep. Because you're wrong and you're also defensive and belligerent about it. Defensive, belligerent engineers are a fucking accident waiting to happen.

> and oh, hey, I design LED fixtures all goddamned day long

But you believe pushing DC over TWENTY FEET of wire is why your power supply blew. Just... Wow.

You had a crappy power supply and it failed, either due to being crappy or due to being operated out of spec.

[Anonymous No.53794]

>>53792

It does on 4chan. It's the backbone of our society here.

[Anonymous No.53795]

>>53785

No, there was no switch. It was straight to an LED array inside a display case.

>>53778

You're looking at a high-powered LED grow light in the final stages of testing and prototyping.

[Anonymous No.53796]

>>53783
Then whats wih all the whiteish blotches on the underside.

[Anonymous No.53797]

>>53783

Uh, that's neither machine made nor reflow soldered.

[Anonymous No.53802]

>>53796

More of the hot glue that's all over the front? Perhaps caulking? Caulking is what they teach you in engineer school, it keeps the rotational velocidensity low so the LEDs are safe to use with DC.

Oh, I know... it's his stash of blunts :-)

[Anonymous No.53804]

>>53789
I was giving an example to show him that the difference between a 20ft copper wire and a 3ft one is negligible to his current driver when the voltage drop on the leds is much more and he isn't pushing more than 1-2A.
That is if he has the leds connected in series which is the only option when you have high power leds.
I just happen to think in metric just like everyone EE who has some self respect. Asswipe!

[Anonymous No.53806]

>>53757

sorry bro but DC really doesn't give a shit how far it travels, i don't know where you get this from. unless of course the amp draw is too large for the size of the wire, causing too much voltage drop over a given distance. but of course AC will do the same exact thing at similar voltages.

[Anonymous No.53810]

>>53790

It IS why the power supply blew. The company that manufactured it even stated so and said to reduce the DC output wire to 3 feet when I got the new ones to avoid the issue.

But you keep talking without knowing every full detail.

Here's another little piece of proof - In this picture, we've got 6m of LED on a 24VDC power supply. The input voltage reads about 23.6V, and at the end of the string, 12.2V, with the last three LED lights in the string getting UNGODLY hot because of LVDC resistance.

But keep on talking as if you know. It's apparent you don't.

Also, I'm globally licensed (and have to be to design and sell these systems.) I doubt you even have a license outside of the USA. MIT doesn't tend to get you that kind of credential.

[Anonymous No.53811]

>>53804
>>53806

Badly designed switching mode supplies don't like inductance of long wires, though.

[Anonymous No.53813]

>>53804

hee hee hee. I would just like the opportunity to now use the word "cuntnozzle". It has about as much hard content as any other post in this thread. Thank you.

Pic unrelated. It is not a cuntnozzle. It was the beginning of a childrens' toy I was making.

[Anonymous No.53815]

>>53806
Yeah i dont know where this guy is getting his ideas from. I'm no EE, but when i did my audio engineering degree we had to do a crash course on EE and none of what he is saying is logical to the way electricity works.

I'm with you bro.

[Anonymous No.53816]

>>53811

this is true, and he probably didn't use a decoupling capacitor at the load because he doesn't actually know wtf he is doing

[Anonymous No.53819]

>>53796

Thermal compound, DUUURRRRRR.

>>53797

>doesn't know about back-mounted PCBs

>>53802

Silicone adhesive for the reflective masking plate that goes on top.

>>53806

From wiki on 'War of the Currents'

"However, even with this innovation, the voltage drop due to the resistance of the system conductors was so high that generating plants had to be located within a mile (1–2 km) or so of the load."

That's under the DC power system from Edison, Second Paragraph.

Very clearly stating DC doesn't like to travel very long distances.

[Anonymous No.53820]

>>53813

Hey, that is pretty sweet. What is that material that the three sets of LEDs are lighting into? Just plastic? Any particular kind?

[Anonymous No.53823]

>>53810

Forgot the picture, or rather video link - tinypic.com/player.php?v=2r5gleg&s=7

The lower row of pinkish lights is the one I'm talking about.

[Anonymous No.53825]

>>53816

>LEDs
>needing a decoupling capacitor

Never have, never will.

[Anonymous No.53826]

>>53810

"Globally licensed'? I don't think so.

>It IS why the power supply blew. The company that
> manufactured it even stated so and said to reduce the DC
> output wire to 3 feet when I got the new ones to avoid the issue.

That has nothing whatsoever to do with the power supply being DC. it has to do with the power supply being CRAP. Mr Globally Licensed blew up his tomato lamp, is pissed about it, and blames it on DC when the real problem is buying crap equipment.

Spend an extra $5 and get something that is bothering to filter its output so it's not mostly HF AC ripple or sensitive to the characteristic impedence of the output. Seriously, CapXon? Do you have any idea what you're actually doing?

[Anonymous No.53828]

>>53819

>"However, even with this innovation, the voltage drop due to the resistance of the system conductors was so high that generating plants had to be located within a mile (1–2 km) or so of the load."

Yes, because the power losses were too great, not because the power supply on his pot lamp blew up. Read the whole thing, eh?

[Anonymous No.53830]

>>53825

ooo. that's purty.

[Anonymous No.53831]

>>53826
>blew up his tomato lamp

You can't read. Display case. No 'tomato lamp' runs 12V @1A DC, that's not enough power to grow much of anything at all besides lawn grass. You very obviously can't think, either.

>it has to do with the power supply being CRAP.

Oh, really? Exact same components, just a shorter wire, suddenly the power supply is much more reliable.

YOu very truly have no clue what you're talking about.

But keep on talking. YOu'll be held responsible for killing someone with your ill-educated mind one of these days.

[Anonymous No.53832]

>>53826
> tomato lamp

Seems like we have a new meme.

[Anonymous No.53834]

>>53810
ok. ok just one question.
You are driving HIGH POWER LEDS WITH A VOLTAGE SOURCE?
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
Are you fucking stupid?

[Anonymous No.53838]

>Thermal compound, DUUURRRRRR.

You're using to much HURRRRRR

wait... what are you heatsinking to that the thermal goop is all over the back of your board? Hell of a design you've got there Lou.

>doesn't know about back-mounted PCBs

Sure do, but you can't bathe the LED itself in the reflow, so this is not machine reflowed DURRRRR

> Silicone adhesive for the reflective masking plate that goes on top.

more handjob work NUUURRRRRR

If this is your design man... good luck on Etsy.

[Anonymous No.53842]

>>53819
>"the resistance of the system conductors was so high that generating plants had to be located within a mile (1–2 km) or so of the load."

He needed to reduce it to a couple inches, then he would have been fine.

[Anonymous No.53843]

>>53819

DC for power distribution failed because Edison planned to run only 250VDC through power lines because there is no simple and efficient way to step DC to high voltages to reduce voltage drop over transmission lines and then back down again. AC on the other hand can be easily stepped up to tens of thousands of volts and then back down again at the end, which turns out to be more efficient.

I hope you realize you are making an ass of yourself.

[Anonymous No.53849]

>Oh, really? Exact same components, just a shorter wire, suddenly the power supply is much more reliable.

Yah, really. It's a rarity when I've got a run under fifty feet carrying less than a few hundred watts. But I'm willing to actually pay $10 for a DC supply. Often, the factories even throw in free dimmers with my purchase. S'true!

[Anonymous No.53852]

>>53838
>Sure do, but you can't bathe the LED itself in the reflow

Have you ever read an SMD LED spec sheet.? It VERY CLEARLY STATES TO REFLOW SOLDER.

>he can't identify an SMD LED
>laughinggirls.jpg

>>53843
>AC on the other hand can be easily stepped up to tens of thousands of volts and then back down again at the end, which turns out to be more efficient.

Nope. You get more loss in the dual conversion than a single conversion.

>>53834
Uh, duh? How else do you power LEDs? They need a specific voltage which is dependent upon diode type and parallel/serial configuration, and operate within a fairly wide amp-hour range (20mAh-2Ah for high-binned diodes)

[Anonymous No.53854]

if you don't plan on living there for extended periods of time you could just use a small diesel generator.

[Anonymous No.53856]

>>53825

when you run the output of an SMPS for a considerable distance the inductance of the power lead can start to cause problems (ringing, unstable voltage) and if you tack on a decoupling cap near the end it can help substantially.

[Anonymous No.53858]

ITT LEDguy pwns because he's right, at low voltages, direct current has issues with long distances. This is why solar panel installs don't run long distance wires to the trace charge controller.

I install solar for a living and am licensed in the state of California.

[Anonymous No.53861]

>>53856


If I'm looking at that board right, Mr. Knows only LEDs power supplies, that cap at the bottom is the decoupler.

[Anonymous No.53862]

>>53861

I mean the guy with the burned drivers, not YOU. Sorry, bro.

[Anonymous No.53865]

>>53852

LEDs are current-driven devices. the number of electrons that jump the gap are what determine how bright the LED is, because each electron that jumps the gap has a chance of producing a photon. the measure of the number of the number of electrons passing a given point is the definition of current.

can't tell if troll or just very dumb

[Anonymous No.53867]

>>53865

>lrn2voltageclamp sense.

If diodes are wired in series, you'll need a voltage-adjusting power supply with a fixed current output.

[Anonymous No.53869]

>>53834
> Uh, duh? How else do you power LEDs?

Current source.

You know, I'm taking the rest of the afternoon off. Gonna tell the wife, fuck it, she can watch the kids. Then I'm going to make some popcorn, kick back and enjoy trying to explain this one.

> They need a specific voltage which is dependent upon diode type and parallel/serial configuration, and operate within a fairly wide amp-hour range (20mAh-2Ah for high-binned diodes)

*Delicious*. Keep digging.

[Anonymous No.53870]

>>53867

exactly what i'm saying. LEDs need to be driven with a current source, but dude just said he drives them with a voltage source

[Anonymous No.53872]

>>53852
>>53852

>Have you ever read an SMD LED spec sheet.? It VERY CLEARLY STATES TO REFLOW SOLDER.

Ah, ah, you got me there. I was thinking wave not reflow. Braino on my part.

Still given the... hand-drawn... nature of those traces, I'm still guessing 'not a machine job'.

>he can't identify an SMD LED
>laughinggirls.jpg

Trying. Too. Hard. You can't pretend to be all smug and catty when we're looking at the quality of the work you're so proud of.

>Nope. You get more loss in the dual conversion than a single conversion.

Mostly irrelevant to the argument. it's not the overall losses, it's the final deliverable power capacity that was limiting Edison and DC, and does not limit AC distribution because of the ease of conversion.

The entire eastern US is in phase, despite the losses that incurs, because it's so damn convenient and the losses mean relatively little.

[Anonymous No.53874]

>>53869

>he doesn't understand that in horticultural applications, single-color diodes NEED to be voltage-controlled in order to maintain a proper wavelength output. Even a drift of 0.1V can cause a 5nm shift.

So much for knowing everything, Mr. Engineer.

[Anonymous No.53876]

>>53872
>hand-drawn nature

You're missing the fact that's missing the bypass resistors for if a diode blows out, to keep the panel operational. That's why the traces zig-zag like that.

[Anonymous No.53880]

>>53858

It doesn't have 'issues' it just loses a proportionally higher amount of power because the loss is proportional to current. If you have a low voltage, to deliver more power, you need a higher current.

You're right... but the word 'issues' makes it sound like a big mystery that's all voodoo and shit (I guess it is voodoo and shit to Mr. Tomato Plant) when it's all dead simple, first-day-frosh-class stuff.

>>53856

Yes. That's a characteristic of the power supply, not because it's LV or DC.

[Anonymous No.53883]

>>53874
>single-color diodes NEED to be voltage-controlled in order to maintain a proper wavelength output.

that's completely retarded. just purchase LEDs that output the proper wavelength at current. LEDs are active loads, if they have a Vf of say 3.3V at 1000ma, they might only do 500ma at 3.2V.

[Anonymous No.53888]

>diodes
>not a rectifier
Enjoy your 50% efficiency

[Anonymous No.53891]

>>53874
so his making his design immune to led voltage deviations by wiring 20+ HP LEDs in series.
Genius!

[Anonymous No.53892]

>>53883
>that's completely retarded. just purchase LEDs that output the proper wavelength at current

No, he's right. I work with solid-state lasers. You cannot allow the voltage to deviate or you can have very bad shifting.

You absolutely must voltage clamp in applications like this.

Guys like us (he said photobiologist, right? I do lasers, we have similar cross-related interests) know that voltage is far more important than current in single-wavelength light-dependent systems.

[Anonymous No.53893]

>>53874

"And we have a first attempt from the challenger!"

The individual variance across even binned LEDs is typically more than 5nm. It also varies with temperature... and current. But let's go with your claim for a bit.

Are you seriously telling me that you're paying prenium for extra-tight color binning, eg, 1nm binned LEDs, then running them on a $1.50 power supply That can't possibly hold up its end of the bargain?

Yeah, I can believe you're doing that.

[Anonymous No.53896]

>>53893

Not even close to a $1.50 power supply. Meanwell doesn't offer anything that cheap for horticultural applications.

And yes, I pay for individually-tested diodes. When you design for specific crops, you need specific lighting.

[Anonymous No.53898]

>>53892
>Guys like us (he said photobiologist, right?

He said he had degrees in electrical engineering, mechanical engineering, biology, kung-fu and 'issues'.

[Anonymous No.53902]

>>53898

Judging by his videos, he's not bullshitting. Could you design a rotary LED system inside an obviously wet hydroponics environment and keep it safe?

[Anonymous No.53903]

>>53896

All diodes are individually tested from every manufacturer, they are usually just not binned. Yields aren't exactly perfect especially on the latest power diodes.

It's easy to spot the manufacturers that don't test, they have DOA numbers between 10-500 per 10,000.

[Anonymous No.53904]

>>53902

oh, he's bullshitting.

Don't forget kids, "DC can't go over TWENTY FEET".

[Anonymous No.53907]

>>53902

IP-65 rated, pal. The entire system could go to shit and those lights would survive.

[Anonymous No.53908]

>>53896
>Meanwell doesn't offer anything that cheap for horticultural applications.

OK, so you're paying a lot for those $1.50 supplies. Congrats.

[Anonymous No.53911]

>>53907

I'm sorry, but I need IP-200 at least.

[Anonymous No.53912]

>>53904

No, but low voltage, low amperage (1A? Weak) DC has issues going more than a few feet. This can lead to problems in a power supply. Note in his pictures the exact same mode of failure. It's all on the DC side of the board.

He's not bullshitting, you're misunderstanding his words.

[Anonymous No.53914]

>>53911
>doesn't understand the Ingress Protection certification

I hope you aren't that MIT guy. I really do.

[Anonymous No.53921]

>>53912

his drivers failed because they are cheap chinese shit.

i do LED systems as well, and have run >100 watts of LEDs through a 25 foot cat5 network cable because i just generally know what i'm doing and design drivers myself that aren't pieces of shit.

[Anonymous No.53922]

>>53912
> No, but low voltage, low amperage (1A? Weak) DC has issues going more than a few feet.

No, it doesn't.

> This can lead to problems in a power supply.

Has nothing to do with it being DC, it has to do with the power supply's regulation operating outside the range where the feedback is properly damped.

It's the power supply. Has *nothing* to do with DC.

Hook a properly rated battery up. Does the battery melt? No.

Hook a better power supply up. Does the better power supply melt? No.

Yeah, it's totally the DC. The DC is the problem.

> Note in his pictures the exact same mode of failure. It's all on the DC side of the board.

I didn't say his potato lamp didn't go up in smoke (heh). I said he's making up bullshit about DC to explain it. He might as well be blaming ghosts or his microwave oven.

> He's not bullshitting, you're misunderstanding his words.

Ooh, we have a relativist apologist! OK, time to fix it with hugs and a prayer!

Spot the difference between these statements:

"DC cannot travel reliably over 20 feet of wire."

"My DC power supply has issues with long lead lengths on the load side. "

[Anonymous No.53926]

>>53921
>more than 100w vs a measly 12w

Yea, hello resistive loss on his end. Not the Chinese driver maker's fault minus the long cord, which the LEDguy is right about.

He said Lelo display case. I work in the porn industry. Those display cases are notorious for their power supplies being bad due to the long wire and lack of any separatory circuitry inside the display case itself.

Okay, he's HALF right. The other half of the problem lies inside the Display cases.

[Anonymous No.53927]

>>53914

Or IP-2000. whichever is more expensive.

[No, I gave up a while ago, just trolling now]

[Anonymous No.53930]

>>53922

Solar installer here. Yes, it does matter.

Especially in small gauge stranded wires, which those power supply wires are using for the output, as is visible in the picture.

I'm calling BS on you.

[Anonymous No.53934]

>>53930

Yeah, you should be using monster cables. None of that thin-gauge copper crap. It'll totally get you an EXTRA TWENTY FEET.

[Anonymous No.53937]

>>53930

Not a solar installer here. What matters?

[Anonymous No.53938]

Why are you guys still going on about this crap? Let it die. This is almost as bad as those steampunkcyberpunksewerexploringdumpsterdiver threads that those fucking urban hippies keep on starting.

[Anonymous No.53939]

>>53938

Uhh... because I'm having fun? Seriosuly, why else would I be bothering?

[Anonymous No.53940]

>>53926

the 100 watts is the maximum; the drivers are dimmable and i have them connected to an atmega with 16-bit pwm dimming. the array runs fine everywhere between .001 watts and 108 watts.

i got the idea because all of the phones run off of power over ethernet at my work. each phone, which draws 6-15 watts of 48VDC current, has between 50-150 feet of cat5 cable between it and the PoE switch. BUT DC CAN'T TRAVEL LONG DISTANCES fukkin lol

[Anonymous No.53943]

>>53937

What matters is that over such a distance, while you might be outputting 12V at source, down that length of wire, when you hit the device at the end to be powered, you might have 9V.

If you fall outside of a device's given operating range, you're going to burn out the device or the power supply. This is how solar panels fail, heat buildup due to resistance over wire distance.

[Anonymous No.53945]

>>53939
I dont think your excuse tricked anyone into thinking that you are actualy enjoying yourself. Great excuse but no. You are just a sad little greasy fingered idiot like the other guy who cant let go. Because having these arguments is the only way to show your usefulnes and superiority as a human being.

[Anonymous No.53947]

>>53940
>48V vs 12V
>higher-grade lower-resistance solid-core wire vs stranded wire

Keep on trollin'.

[Anonymous No.53950]

>>53947

stranded vs solid doesn't matter at dc brosephine

[Anonymous No.53953]

>>53950
>doesn't know that when electricity flows through a wire, it mostly flows on the surface of the wire, not through the middle.

It matters regardless, nimrod.

[Anonymous No.53956]

>>53953

thats only for ac, and high frequency at that

[Anonymous No.53957]

>>53956
>doesn't know that one reason why battery cables in your car and welding cables are made up of many very fine strands of smaller wire - it allows them to safely carry more power with less of that power being dissipated as heat.

Note car batteries, which are DC.

It still matters, just not as MUCH.

You're being really obtuse about this and you're wrong, holmes. Ten years of installing solar panels and wiring the entire system into the grid says you're dead wrong.

[Anonymous No.53961]

So I'm playing around with http://www.powerstream.com/Wire_Size.htm

LEDguy is right, guys. You're fucked.

[Anonymous No.53967]

>>53943
>What matters is that over such a distance, while you might be outputting 12V at source, down that length of wire, when you hit the device at the end to be powered, you might have 9V.

Using 18ga extension cord wire (the zipcord cheap extension cords are made of), you'd need to be pushing 23.5A (282W) over 20 feet for a 3V drop. Or you'd use a thicker gauge because there's no reason to be an idiot and only use 18ga. Or 24/48V which doubles/quadruples power for the same loss.

For the record, that's also 11 microhenries of inductance over that distance. A PSU that can't handle 11 microhenries... well, I wouldn't buy it.

That's still not mumbo-jumbo 'issues', it's a straight up ohmic voltage loss.

>If you fall outside of a device's given operating range, you're going to burn out the device or the power supply.

This has nothing to do with your above assertion.

> This is how solar panels fail, heat buildup due to resistance over wire distance.

Seriously? That means your solar panels mysteriously break whenever sun hits them and they're not hooked up to anything? The resistance there is infinite! That's a hell of a voltage drop! Like... all of it!

More seriously... dude, think. How does the heat from the wire magically end up in the solar panel? And break it?

[Anonymous No.53969]

>>53957

They're made of strands so they can *BEND* idiot.

[Anonymous No.53970]

>>53953

Only at high frequencies. It's called the skin effect, go look it up. Doesn't apply at DC.

[Anonymous No.53971]

>>52697
Wind turbines are erected on poles/towers are are so high that they catch the stream of air far above the trees. You can fly a kite up there almost non-stop, but on the ground the air may be completely dead.

Most people have no clue about this nor do they know what the actual wind speed is up there.

My best advice is to make a cheap dopero kite and get it up to the 200 feet mark to see how much wind there is there.

[Anonymous No.53973]

>>53957

>never tried welding with 2/0 solid copper cable before

It's not easy bro

[Anonymous No.53975]

>>53957

you install solar panels. electricians are electric plumbers, stop pretending you know anything.

cables in cars are stranded due to vibration. welding cables are stranded because they have to be flexible. the skin effect, which is the only electrical reason you use many smaller conductors instead of one large one, only applies at high frequencies. for DC up to tens of thousands of hertz the skin effect makes no difference unless you are using huge wires.

[Anonymous No.53976]

>>53971

Dude, awesome! I love pizza!

[Anonymous No.53995]

I just wanted to say that I loved this thread guise. Maximum trolling.
The "tomato lamp" and "his stash of blunts" were my favourite. Tomato lamp guy I hope you don't feel bad about this.

[Anonymous No.54003]

>>53975
I'm not the guy you're arguing with (seeing as how I know you're right), but you don't have to be a dick to him about it.

[Anonymous No.54013]

>>52661
You need more then one generator.

Consider Solar, Hydro (Legally you may need permit to use stream) , Thermal , And wind generators.

Also a system that turns waste into soil culture for self sufficiency farming.

[Anonymous No.54037]

>>53995

I feel the flush of achievement. My work here is done.

[Anonymous No.54081]

>>53975

>totally unaware Solar Installers deal with the entire system from panel to wall outlet
>implying I'm not the dam AND pipeline builder.

Try again.

[Anonymous No.54082]

>>53975

Cables in cars are stranded due to the need to flex and to carry high amounts of power. Solid core sucks for this.

[Anonymous No.54084]

>>54081

None of which changes the fact that you're 100% wrong about skin effect and several other things you've asserted as fact.

Do not make me whip out the Wikipedia quotes. I literally have nothing better to do. It has been asserted already that I am a greasy-faced nerd with no life who is compelled to argue endlessly with people on the Internets! It is all true! You really want to be seen going up against that?? I will enjoy none of it!

[Anonymous No.54085]

>>54084

>totally unaware of long-term effects of leaving an unloaded solar panel exposed to light.
>isn't aware of junction failure due to heat buildup
>isn't aware of wikipedia's total uselessness due to newer research being conducted daily

The skin effect is OMNIPRESENT. It is STILL an issue.

But feel free to be the greasy neckbeard that will go looking up things which are quite often wrong.

You probably don't even know what a nanosecond is in terms of copper wiring.

[FORTRAN No.54087]

>>54085

A nanosecond with relation to copper wire is 11.59 inches for any electrical pulse.

[Anonymous No.54093]

>>54085

>isn't aware of wikipedia's total uselessness due to newer research being conducted daily

OH MY GOD. THEY DISPROVED BASIC PHYSICS LAST NIGHT???? EDISON AND TESLA ARE GONNA BE PISSED!

> The skin effect is OMNIPRESENT. It is STILL an issue.

Dear God. You *do* buy Monster cables, don't you?

[Anonymous No.54096]

>>54085

Calling sockpuppet of Herr Professor Doctor Tomatoplant

[Anonymous No.54099]

>>54096

10:1 says tomato boy got too high and forgot about the thread.

[Anonymous No.54100]

>>54093

I do DC welding with Iron rods. Skin effect is present starting at 70Hz.

You are not correct in your assertion, sir.

[Anonymous No.54107]

>>54100

"There is no skin effect at DC!"

"I call bullshit. I can tell you for a fact there's a skin effect at 70Hz AC"

Seriously, guys. Is everyone here stoned out of their minds?

[Anonymous No.54110]

>>54100

Yeeeah. That's AC. You can tell by the '70Hz' part. Skin depth at 70Hz is about 8mm.

At DC, there is no skin.

[Anonymous No.54112]

>>54110

>implying DC doesn't have a frequency

http://www.zena.net/htdocs/FAQ/whatisHFDC.shtml

[Anonymous No.54125]

>>54112

Oh yeah, we'll here's an even better explanation:
http://www.timecube.com/

"Fucking new agers. Is there any amount of bullshit they won't swallow?"

> Implying Jesus wasn't a total slut.

[Anonymous No.54127]

>>54112

What that page is describing is AC with a DC offset. 'HFDC' is just made up bullshit.

"It is still Direct Current as long as the electrical current flow is in a single direction." <<< never took an EE class in college.

[Anonymous No.54130]

>i know for a fact that getting punched in the face 70 times per second hurts, so clearly getting punched in the face 0 times per second must hurt at least a little

this is what you sound like

[Anonymous No.54142]

>>54127

>doesn't understand pulse-width modulation, used in LEDs, which are DC-only devices.

You still have a frequency. Good job failing second-year circuitry.

[Anonymous No.54148]

I think what OP wants is called pico hydro. These are small scale hydro power generators that are designed to run off streams. The most important thing with with hydro power is your flow rate and your head. You either need a stream with a TON of water to toss through the turbines or you need one that has high head. Head is the measure of how far down the water travels. If you have a waterfall that's 100 feet tall then you have 100 feet of head.

High head systems require VERY little water to operate. You might be able to get by with a garden hose. Other systems will require bigger PVC pipes to channel your water.

[Anonymous No.54158]

>>54142

Troll is too obvious.

It's still not 'High Frequency DC'. Once it's PWM it's AC (with a complex spectrum since it's ~ a squareware) with a DC offset.

The VoPro stoner crowd comes out in force on saturday I see.

[Anonymous No.54215]

OK guys, this has gone on long enough. Over 150 posts and not one mention of the tesla turbine? /diy/s patron saints is probably rotating in his grave, generating enough DC to kill an elephant! Gonna have to start revoking some geek cred here...

Off topic: don't use cheap power supplies, kids (yes, Meanwell has a good price performance ratio, but quality is, well, mediocre)

[Anonymous No.54263]

>>54158

It is NOT AC unless the electrical charge reverses direction. PWM adjusts the duty cycle, not direction of electrical flow.

[Anonymous No.54264]

>>54263

Could you stop already?

[Anonymous No.54266]

>>54263

Wrong.

Take your PWM square wave. Connect it to a load that is a resistor and a capacitor in series. Look at the current flow and voltage.

OMG! AC! It's magic!!!!

All you're doing is blocking the DC component. AC component flows through the cap.

[Anonymous No.54280]

>>54264
>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alternating_current
>in LEDs, (DIODES) Current only flows ONE FUCKING WAY

[Anonymous No.54284]

>>54280

Uh, yeah. That's exactly right. What are you having trouble understanding.

You do realize that if you hook an LED up to an AC source, the universe doesn't divide by zero and end, right? It only conducts in one direction.*

(in reality LEDs are shitty diodes, and you cannot rely on them blocking current in the opposite direction. Not only that, but all diodes leak to some degree).

[Anonymous No.54292]

>>54284

>isn't even looking at the SIMPLE diagram on the wiki page
>totally incompetent

You'd notice that pulsation is not alternating current, if you had bothered. In fact, it tends to be more along the lines of direct current, in that electrical flow NEVER REVERSES.

[Anonymous No.54320]

>>54292

"Pulsed DC" has an AC and a DC component.

Pic related. That's an LED strip on a PWM dimmer at 50%. Note especially that the meter is reading volts AC.

[Anonymous No.54324]

[Anonymous No.54327]

>>54320

True AC has a voltage drop into the negative.

This never reaches Zero.

It is not AC.

[Anonymous No.54328]

Here's the DC component.

[Anonymous No.54335]

>>54328

PWM goes from zero voltage to a specified voltage (like 0-5)

In order for this to be true AC, the voltage must go into the negative. If it only goes from base to peak, it's not AC. Ever.

[Anonymous No.54339]

>>54327

Oh, "True AC" as opposed to the fake stuff the meter is reading. *got it*.

[Anonymous No.54347]

How do you PWM a DC device such as a computer fan, which will not run on AC power?

PWM must therefore be DC in this situation. A pulsed current can still be unidirectional and not alternating.

[Radiofag No.54352]

>>54328
>not using an HP/Agilent 34401A

[Anonymous No.54366]

>>54347

Like I said--- it has a DC component and an AC component. Both are present.

Take a Fourier transform of a 'DC' squarewave. What do you see?

[Anonymous No.54369]

>>54352
The Fluke is in the basement on the messy bench. I'm upstairs where the desk is relatively cleaner :-)

[Anonymous No.54374]

>>53976
I have no clue what you are talking about. Wrong quoted post perhaps?

[Anonymous No.54378]

>>54327

There is no such thing as an absolute 'zero' voltage. Voltage is relative to a reference. Switch the leads around. "OMG, now it's negative!"

[Anonymous No.54390]

>>54352

Bit expensive for hobby use...

[Anonymous No.54391]

The real issue with DC vs AC is the IR voltage loss in the wiring. The voltage loss in any wire is the product of the voltage (in volts) times the current (in amps).

You can easily calculate the IR loss from the current, length of the wire, and wire resistance per foot. To find the resistance per foot, use a handbook, or look it up here (example):

http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=awg+12

DC power circuits tend to run at low voltages but large currents, whereas AC circuits do the opposite. This is because there is no cheap, simple equivalent of a transformer for DC power.

If you have to carry large currents over any kind of distance you simply have to use bigger wire, which has a lower resistance per foot.

[Anonymous No.54395]

>>54391

This.

You can use higher voltage DC, but you lose some benefits, like anything 48V and under isn't regulated by the electrical code (though the physical aspects of the wire runs themselves may be).

[Anonymous No.54470]

>>54395

For electrical safety at work, anything under 50 volts is not considered to be a voltage hazard. However, a low-voltage source that can deliver a large short-circuit current into a load (like a 12-Volt battery bank) may be an arc-flash hazard, and require appropriate precautions.

[Anonymous No.54509]

do you fags even know the definition of Alternating Voltage?
If v(t) is the function of the voltage the definite integral from 0 to t must equal to zero.
lol at the guy talking about fourier transformation of the square pulse to justify it being AC. It has a DC component and an AC but IT IS NOT AC.

[Anonymous No.54533]

>>54509

That's pretty derp seeing how the most common ac voltage function is sinusoidal and is only equal to 0 at the integer multiples of the period.

[Anonymous No.54627]

>>53892

It might help to explain that it's the voltage of the electron that jumps the gap that determines the wavelength of the emitted photon.

Mind you reducing emitter bin variance is also important, and such tight binning would make the LEDs very expensive. I don't believe he went to those lengths judging by the low-cost nature of everything else in the system.