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/diy/ - Do It Yourself

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216716 No.216716 [Reply] [Original]

Does anyone on DIY know about off-the-grid housing? I've fallen in love with the idea of living in a self-sustaining house after college, possibly one made from recycled shipping containers or a biohome (http://biohome.net/)) but what would the prices be in comparison to a normal house? How hard do you think it would be?

All I'd need out of it is functioning plumbing/electricity, a well and wifi.

>> No.216730

joe?

>> No.216733

Are you prepared to spend double, triple, maybe quintuple to provide the same services as on the grid?

You lack the economies of scale that the providers of plumbing, sanitation, internet, and electricity.

>> No.216734

Whatever you do, don't build a dome home. They leak.

>> No.216739

>>216733
Could you elaborate? A lot of articles for it said that solar paneling could provide for electricity, the homes come insulated, etc, there's a water recycling system built in, etc.

>>216734
Source? Never heard about this.

>> No.216751

I swear, there needs to be a Sticky about some subjects. It makes me want to punch a wall when subjects like "living in shipping containers" come up.

>> No.216753

>>216733
going off the grid pretty much means using a lot less energy unless you have 30-40k to spend on solar panels/wind mills

it can be done cheaply but you have to give up a lot

>> No.216758

>>216751
I'm certainly not assuming to know a lot about the subject, but these houses do look really nice. http://www.busyboo.com/tag/modern-prefab-homes/

>>216753
This is true. I'm not sure how much it would cost to have a small kitchen and washer/dryer (very basic amnenities, mind you) but I know I wouldn't mind using natural light as far as lighting went.

But that's why I'm asking DIY. Even though this is a pipe dream for now, it'd be nice to get some facts straight.

>> No.216764

>>216734

Not the ones in the picture. Those are membranous domes.

>> No.216768

While we're here, how feasible is it to dig into a hill and structure a home inside of that hill?

>> No.216769

>>216764
Ah. Well if I was going to get something I would make sure it was sturdy, of course.

>> No.216775

Once on 'house hunters international' this irish woman was trying to find like a dome-house in....italy, I think. It was really simple and open.

Get one of those!

But uh.. if you want to be innawoods then don't use electricity. If you want to be self-sufficient get a farm and put some wind turbines up. For the most part you can supply your own stuff, and if it's a farming community you can trade etc... mitebcool.

>> No.216779

Depends on where you are and how much time, money and man power you have as well as what resources you have close to you.

Some things you could make your house out of:
straw bale
earth bags
cob
rammed earth
recycled/reclaimed materials

and here's some people to look into:
Michael Reynolds
Robert Hart
Nader Khalili
Geoff Lawton
Mike Oehler
Sepp Holzer
Dick Proenneke
Bill Mollison

Here's some youtube videos:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qRpMAt7Rbv8
www.youtube.com/watch?v=m5rM7QDi_5E
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qqFzrUj-CZ8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Frkps9jmCVM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j4bWGKJ4Qqw
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uGeppkckVeo
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3E2AHd5iIH8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GuBHOOAO_oc
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jV9CCxdkOng
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lwCpQKcnObA

>> No.216792

>>216753
If you did the same level of conservation ON the grid, it would be cheaper.

>> No.216795

>>216792 Definitely weighing the pros and cons. Sadly the thought of living in a more secluded area is very inviting. Wouldn't your taxes be lower as well as your utility costs? Like, if you were installing solar panels wouldn't it be more of a one-time thing with minor upkeep? Please correct me if my assumptions are wrong.

>>216779
Thanks for this megapost! Very helpful.

>> No.216796

>>216775
Will look this episode up. I don't think I need to live in a forest way away from civilization but finding a more secluded area off the housing grid (even if not by much) would be nice.

>> No.216812

>>216795
First off, solar panels are not cost effective in most parts of the world. So, unless you live in the sprawling desert of the Southwest...

Second, the maintenance. Scratched, broken, or hazed panels diminish performance and require repair. This is factored into your 9.5c/kwh power bill already. It is NOT factored into your solar power bill. Not only that, but batteries too are lousy to maintain the upkeep on.

Wind turbines are more friendly for the diy'er...unlike solar panels, you can do the majority of the maintenance yourself. It simply involves pressing in bearings, greasing them, and MAYBE replacing blades in the event of catastrophic failure. With a catastrophic failure of a solar panel, there's no repairing them. You have to purchase new solar panels again. Luckily, the actual generator portion of the wind turbine is extremely durable. The only parts that break in a failure are the cheap bolt-on parts.

Taxes are variable.

You must also factor in the cost of your labor as well. How much do you value your labor?

>> No.216828

>>216812
Ah, I see now.
Could you elaborate on that? What exactly do you mean by "labor"? How well the house is put together, or...?
Sorry if this is a stupid question. This just isn't my area.

>> No.216833

>>216828
All people put value to their labor.

Would you operate a CNC milling machine for 1 USD an hour? No, your labor is worth more than that!

The weird part is how people view their free time though. They generally value their free time more than they value their own labor.

For instance, you pay a mechanic an average of about $60/hr to fix your car. By paying a mechanic $60/hr, you are saying that "My free time is worth more than $60/hr". So instead of buying tools, gaining experience, and working on your vehicle, you pay someone else to do it...even though automotive repair is well within the ability of an amateur. It's that simple.

Time "on the grid" you would spent as free time (on 4chan!) is now spent monitoring/repairing your energy production system, sanitation systems, crops, etc.

>> No.216841

>>216833
Ah, now I see what you mean. Thank you for the patient explanation.

Honestly, I'm not sure how far I'd want to go with self-sustainment. I don't know if I'd want to be in such a secluded, far-away area that I have to build a whole farm along with my biome. I'd still want a job and would use that money to buy food, et cetera. Is that too much to hope for? The things that appeal to me about the biome homes are not only their design and the self-sustainability/eco-friendly systems that are advertised along with them, but also the fact that it's automatically stripping away space, amenities, et cetera I don't think I need, that I would otherwise be paying for on the grid.

>> No.216850

If there's a stream or pond upslope, you should look into micro-hydro — you can get a fair amount of power that way, enough to keep your wifi and fridge running perhaps. I know a couple off-the-grid types and one of them mostly powers their (small, super-energy-efficient) house off a shoebox-sized turbine.

>> No.216852

>>216850
That sounds great! I'll definitely look that up. I'm planning to go into the videogame industry so I'm probably going to settle on the west coast, but not entirely sure yet.

>> No.216937

Check this link out OP.

>> No.216944

Check this out
http://www.simondale.net/house/

http://www.tumbleweedhouses.com/

Tumbleweed/tiny houses are pretty cool and can be built by self. It all depends on what you're looking to do. Do you just want to build your own house? Do you want to build your own semi-sustainable house? Or do you want to build your own fully sustainable house or homestead?

Typically, more sustainable/off-grid = less tech with nature-based systems. You can build a sustainable off-grid house but if you want all the fancy tech that modern, conventional houses have its gonna cost you a lot. A lot of the conveniences we enjoy are exactly that, conveniences.

>> No.216947

Do you really need plumbing and running water? Not really. You can utilize a gravity fed rain barrel. You can have well or rain collected water in a pitcher, pour it into a basin and wash your hands and rinse. That "grey water" can then be used to water plants or flush a toilet. But do you really need a flush toilet? Solid waste can be collected in a bucket and covered with sawdust or leaves and composted, liquid waste can be collected and diluted 1:5 or 1:8 with water and it becomes a natural liquid fert for plants. Is a running shower or bath necessary? It's easy enough to just get wet, soap up, and rinse off. You use a fraction of the water and still get the job done, the water can be contained and re-used.

If you are going to design and build a house, design it for heating efficiency. This way if you heat the house it uses less fuel (wood being the most sustainable). Gets too hot in the summertime? Go outside.

Electrical systems are expensive. If you just want to run a laptop and a wifi card it wouldn't be too bad. But if you want to run all the amenities of a conventional house its going to cost some money. Some sustainable options to replace researching online (why I assume you're on /diy/) include books, asking people and /diy/ irl. Lighting can be provided by the sun (free), oil lamps (fueled from plant oils or animal fats) , fire (wood), or LEDs and a host of other electrical devices. Refrigeration can be supplemented with a root cellar, preserving (canning, salting, etc), and harvesting fresh grown veggies/fruit as needed.

One could go on forever with this subject. In general, 3-R's (reduce, reuse, and recycle). There are major differences between what you want/need to survive comfortably. The first step towards sustainability is reducing consumption. There is always a natural solution to a natural problem.

>> No.216948

3/3
Had to break that down, it was too long. There are a lot of resources out there about sustainable living, and once you start looking you keep going further down the rabbit hole.

>> No.216951

And you don't need to be a total recluse to do this, you could easily do these things on a 1/8 acre + lot. Most people do it in the country because land is more affordable and there is usually less regulation than more urbanized areas.

>> No.216953
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216953

>shipping container

You might want to look into a pre-fab yurt. A 30 foot round yurt (710 sq/feet, more if you build a loft) is about $10k. You will still need to build a floor or raised platform to build the yurt on and if you want rooms or a 2nd floor you'd need to hire a carpenter.


Personally when I get some money I plan to buy this yurt.
http://spiritmountainyurts.com/fortress.htm
Install a radiant heating heating system that uses evacuated tubes to heat the water. Little wood burning stove for backup heat and abidance, I really love fire places. And if I can find a property with a stream I can do pico hydro power like >>216850 mentions. Otherwise I'll end up building solar panels (approximately $1/watt) and supplementing that with a homemade vawt wind turbine made out of plastic barrels.

>> No.217079

>>216944
>>216947
>>216951
>>216948

Thanks so much for all this helpful info! Honestly I don't have my heart set on totally roughin' it, so I don't mind if I get it on a 1/8 acre plot near civilization or something like that. I wouldn't want to build it in the middle of nowhere because I'm not prepared for that.

>>216953
This definitely looks like a possible winner. Looks lovely and affordable and you have some good ideas too.

>> No.217141

I've not heard that dome homes leak. I'm not real hot on the idea of owning one anyway though. The one I have been in had lots of "odd" space.
In a normal you put a lot of furniture up against a wall, and you hang a lot of stuff on walls too--but only the internal walls of a dome home are perpendicular to the floor. So a lot of the normal "wall space" you would have for normal furniture,,,,,,, isn't there, despite the actual floor space it has. It changes your decorating a lot, that's for sure.

----

As far as living off-grid: you should probably ask locally to see what the local/government regulations say you need. In the USA for example you don't usually need to have utility water or electricity, and you don't need to be on utility sewer service--but you must have an approved method of sewage disposal. So if you have a septic tank, it has to be built to pass the specifications they have.

>> No.217378

My suggestion would be to look into natural building methods and especially emphasize passive homes (a number of projects and inspiration can be found here: http://builditsolar.com/).). Passive heating and cooling with natural ventilation can be achieved through a number of methods with info on several DIY fixes freely available online. This would greatly reduce the complexity of the house which reduces costs, both up front and utilities down the road, and will greatly reduce maintenance issues. Remember that principle rule of engineering: make a system as complex as it needs to be and no more.
Open Source (http://opensourceecology.org/wiki)) provides everything you need to know to make a compressed earth block press for around 6 grand, which will effectively pay for itself when you can build a home right out of the earth beneath you (with a small addition of lime or cement to bind.) One consideration to add more thermal mass might be to build a double block thick wall.
For water I would recommend rain barrels and sanitation could be as simple as a composting toilet. If you think ahead you could design your home such that it can be upgraded to add on an addition or change from a composting toilet to a fully contained water and sewage recycling system.
Doing the most you can to reduce your home's energy requirements is much simpler than trying to generate all of the power you would need for a conventional home. I would suggest looking into building your own wind turbines, or mini-hydro if it is available to you. Unlike solar, you can do them completely diy for cheaper and can repair them if damaged. Another energy option would be solar concentrators, though those as well would be more susceptible to damage you could not yourself repair easily than turbines and their efficiency would be greatly dictated by where you live.
That's just my two cents though. Good luck.

>> No.217707

>>217378
Hey I've always been curious, what do people use for wiping their asses when they shit? Compostable toilet paper?

>> No.218255
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218255

How hard is it to insulate a shipping container enough to live in it?

>> No.218690

Anyone?

>> No.218691

Here op, get in contact with this guy.

http://www.sciencefriday.com/segment/09/30/2011/living-in-a-geodesic-dome-home.html

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4dZVIBhKqWc

>> No.218725
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218725

>How hard is it to insulate a shipping container?

Buy an refridgetaterer shipping container sell the refidgeratater apply wall paper ta-daw!

>> No.218928

They only leak if you built them so they can leak

>> No.218929

It's much more expensive than simply building a regular home. You need to takeunder consideration excavation costs and moisture/water penetration, just like any basement, but then you also need to think things through regarding lighting, air renovation, moisture, utilities, etc...

Some people may like hte idea of living in a bunker, but they are mad.

>> No.219238
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219238

OP here. I made a long post thanking everyone so far that I haven't thanked one by one but it got deleted, so I'll thank everyone here. Thanks everyone!
I've fallen in love with those tumbleweed homes, including the Fencl one: http://www.tumbleweedhouses.com/products/fencl/

It is relatively cheap, cute and would be much more affordable than a dome home, it seems. I don't know how much I would need to play around with self-sustainability, but if I played my cards right I could end up setting one up on a small piece of property out of the way but still with a pipeline, set up a satellite for wifi, et cetera. Certainly much more doable than a dome home, I'd say, and portable as well. This is a risk I would be more willing to take. How hard would it be living in one of these homes fairly out of the way, and what could I do to reduce my utility costs? Could I possibly sustain myself and cut down on trips to the supermarket by making a garden and owning a few chickens for eggs? I have considered breeding edible insects but people have told me that getting a hunting license would be more viable.

>> No.219246

>>216792
I've seen this argument for a long time, and it always bugged me. The statement that "Off grid utilities are way more expensive then on grid, so it's not really worth it."

I already own my land for my off grid house. I'm in the middle of year 2 in my 5 year plan to get off the grid. I've got ten acres of mountain land in North Alabama.No road access, it's surrounded by woodlands on all sides for over a mile. It's a couple miles to the nearest house, which is next to the closest road.

This house is my family's old farmhouse At least 5 generations of the family have lived in it. It's 'On-Grid'.

On grid means it's has main line electricity. That's it. No water lines available in the area, you have to have a well. You have to have a septic tank and leech field, cause there isn't sewer lines in there area. No cable. They don't offer it out there. Too much money to string the lines for too little gain. You can get a land line phone though. Have too if you want phone, cause there isn't cell reception there.

Exactly how is going off grid more expensive for me, in my situation, then trying to get utilities? Do you know how much it would cost to get power out that far from the nearest lines? Not to mentioning the cost of having to cut a road,
Seems to me, having a couple wind generators for LED lights and to charging my word processor would be much cheaper.

>> No.219253

>>219246
>septic tank and leech field

urgh. Move to a composting toilet set up asap

>> No.219256

>>219253

Well, I definitely will be building a composting toilet.

>> No.219307

>>219256
Are you a man?

Get a shovel,dig a hole and build a out house on top of it.

>> No.219350

>>219307
That's as bad as a septic tank and leech field. Probably worse.
Composting is the best option.

>> No.219355

A while back I read this

http://www.undergroundhousing.com/

He had a lot of interesting ideas but I just couldn't see doing it myself.

Why not take a conventional home and start building in failsafes? A propane generator, roof water catchment, and a few solar panels to charge electronics provides experience. Better yet it'll give you confidence and peace of mind.

If you really want to live off grid you're going to have to prepare to live with less. It's not as hard to do as I'd thought. When I went on mission in Africa I learned a lot about managing without access to reliable electricity or water. It's more about lifestyle than technology. If you can deal with cold showers, composting toilets, disconnecting from the internet, and living off long term storables you'll be able to go off grid cheap. I knew a guy who lived in a pop up trailer for 2 years of college and looking at him you'd of never known.

>> No.219359

>>216850
>>216850
>>216850
Fucking this. Micro hydro+ small wind turbines. Solar is only worth it if you live in the South West USA.

>> No.220069

>>219350
I don't see how composting toilets are the best answer, seems like a waste of perfectly good fuel, biogas digesters are the answer for me.

>> No.220293

>>220069
Well you could use it for heating water/growing food, just depends how you use it.

>> No.220302

>>220069

It all depends on what you need more. Fuel or Soil.

If your garden is where most of your food comes from, it's likely the compost is more important then the fuel.

On the other hand, if you have lots of motorized equipment to run, biogas is a great way to provide fuel while dealing with waste.

>> No.220306

>>219238

>complete building plans $895

You have got to be fucking kidding me.For a PDF file?

>> No.220307

>>220069
If you want to live off the grid, what you should be aiming to do is minimize or eliminate the amount you need from the system outside yours. That means no waste, none. You shouldn't be throwing or disposing of anything, everything should, as much as possible, be in a cycle. If you're eating food grown on your land and then shitting in a hole and covering it up, you're breaking a cycle, and you're going to need to replace what you're disposed of with something from outside your system. You're essentially removing goodness from the soil and not replacing it, the soil will progressively degrade and with it your yields.
Using your shit for biogas generation also breaks the cycle by effectively destroying material for fuel, and requires additional equipment. You should be running as few complex machines as possible if you want to live truly off the grid, ideally everything should be solid-state as much as possible. Reciprocating engines require maintenance, lubrication, tools and so on, all of which will require some input from the outside system.
Composting is a low energy input, high value output, clean and hygienic way of dealing with your waste that doesn't break the cycle. Ideally should be composting everything - veg, meat, scraps, paper, cardboard, carcasses, yard clippings, leaves, and your shit.