living off the grid

[Anonymous No.211607]

Have you ever thought about living off the grid and building your own house? Well this guy did it and he's built himself a beautiful house for around £3000. Check it out. It's amazing.

http://www.simondale.net/house/

His website even tells you how to build your own. It's really useful and inspiring.

[Anonymous No.211610]

More links related to living off the grid:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brithdir_Mawr
http://www.brithdirmawr.co.uk/
http://thatroundhouse.info/
http://www.brithdirmawr.co.uk/ysbrydol.htm
http://www.prospectcommunity.org.uk/
http://www.permacultureforum.org.uk/forum/
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1056637/Lost-middle-class-tribes-secret-eco-village-Wales-sp
otted-aerial-photograph-taken-plane.html
http://www.lammas.org.uk/
http://forum.justfortheloveofit.org/viewforum.php?f=60&sid=0493e774030134da6900186b13f7b54d
http://officeingarden.co.uk/
http://www.ecohouseagent.com/
http://www.off-grid.net/
http://www.plotgate.org.uk/home
http://www.richsoil.com/
http://www.permies.com/
http://www.permaculture.org.uk/
http://www.ben-law.co.uk/
http://www.permaculture.co.uk/

[Anonymous No.211612]

Define "off the grid".

[Anonymous No.211617]

>>211612

Pretty much means you're living away from society. You aren't hooked up to water or electrical companies; you generally generate your own electricity using solar power or windmills; some people have their own wells or just use stream water; you grow your own food, maybe own a few chickens or something too; it's self reliance, in a nutshell.

[Anonymous No.211619]

This guy has been living without money for quite a long time now. If you google his name -- Mark Boyle -- you'll fond plenty of articles and things about him.

Here's his webiste:

http://www.justfortheloveofit.org/blog

[Anonymous No.211621]

>>211617
Sounds like one hell of an effort just to make yourself feel special and independent.

[Radiofag No.211622]

You're willing to cope with the fact that you will pay an average of 200% to 1000% increase over your current grid energy energy rates... (This varies region to region, this is an average though in middle America)

[Anonymous No.211623]

>>211621

The guy who built the house in the OP -- Simon Dale -- built his house in under three months. It cost him around £3000. Prior to the build he had no experience in carpentry or building or plumbing or anything like that. He now has a house.

He has a house.

That is something not everyone can claim but it is something everybody wants. Difference is this guy went out and did something about it.

[Anonymous No.211625]

>>211622

What are you saying? That living remotely will increase your electricity bill? I imagine that's correct. It would take a lot of effort to bring electricity to someone living in the middle of nowhere.

Thing is, that has nothing to do with this thread. All the links provided show how these people gather their energy, and it's not by paying some huge company.

[Anonymous No.211630]

any pictures of inside the house?

[Anonymous No.211631]

>>211630

there are more pics on the website, including pics of the build and stuff.

[Anonymous No.211633]

[Anonymous No.211634]

[Anonymous No.211635]

IT'S A FUCKING HOBBIT HOLE!! WIN!!!

[Anonymous No.211659]

care to share more links related to the topic?

[Anonymous No.211663]

Im thinking in a few years when I can afford it Im going to buy a woodland, built myself a wagon and then take it there and live in it. Id grow my own fruit and vegetables, have solar panels and a small wind turbine for some electricity to power a TV and a PC. Log burner stove for cooking and heating and have a small rainwater harvesting system for enough water for washing drinking ect. I would also farm some chickens for eggs and would also eat some of them occasionally. I would sell some eggs and extra fruit and veg I harvest for a little extra income to pay for luxurys like meat from the shops and stuff like that. Also grow tobacco for myself to smoke.

But yeah . . . thats my plan.

[Anonymous No.211665]

>>211659

damn, bro, did you read the thread? i posted like 20 links about this same sort of thing.

[Anonymous No.211668]

>>211663

that sounds great. a wagon might be a good idea too, because you can move it. the biggest problem with these projects is planning permission. for instance, the guy in the OP had no planning permission, and if he had applied, probably wouldn't have got it. there are lots of people doing this same thing, and they tend to just build and fuck permission. after they have lived in it for a long while, they might try and get permission. the law in the uk is if you've lived there 6 years you get auto permission.

there's a place in wales called lammas (link in second post of the thread) that is like a community of people building their own houses, living from their own crops etc there's one more place like in scotland, but apart from that it's rare to see a build like this that isn't illegal. fucking shame.

[Anonymous No.211670]

>>211665
moaarrr! yeah but I'm collecting this sort of links ;) anyways thankx!

[Anonymous No.211672]

i guess these might be useful links too

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roundhouse_(dwelling)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/That_Roundhouse

[Anonymous No.211674]

>>211668

Thats what I was thinking, Im in the UK, I think its 7 years to be able to get planning permission and you have to have some kind of reason to stay there in the first place, people used to put pigs on there land for a reason to stay there in a caravan then just stay there 7 years in order to build. Ive got a patch of land near me and I checked it out on the land registry and its vacant and as far as I know its been vacant for at least 40 years if not more. Im going to build a small shelter there and maybe do a bit of guerilla gardening there for a while and try and claim it, to adversely posses a plot of land it takes 12 years for unregistered land and 10 for registered. So hopefully I might be able to claim it then in years to come Ill be able to put my wagon there.

[Anonymous No.211677]

>>211674

Planning is a nightmare. Some of the links I posted might be useful for you, I don't know. It sounds like a good idea anyway. Best of luck to you.

I'd like to actually build a permanent structure, but the thought of being found and having a council tell me they'll demolish everything I've built, my fucking home, is scary. I've been looking into these eco-villages like lammas and so on. I'd kind of like to join one of those.

[Anonymous No.211801]

bamp

[Radiofag No.211829]

>>211625
Attempting to live off the grid will increase your bills because you lack economies of scale. Even if you reduce your consumption, it doesn't change the fact that if you did the same thing "on the grid", it would be cheaper.

Plus, you still need to be grid connected for wonderful things like phones and internet.

I applaud those who do it, but you must know the costs as well as the benefit.

[Anonymous No.211841]

In any cases you will need the society. You will need tools created by society, buy a land from society etc. So why trying to leave the comfort of society if you will still need a lot from it?

[Anonymous No.211864]

>>211829
>>211841
Spoken like a fagot who knows NOTHING about living off the grid.

>it doesn't change the fact that if you did the same thing "on the grid", it would be cheaper.
That's the most ani-/diy/ thing I've ever seen on this board. With that attitude why bother doing anything yourself? Why are you even surfing this board?

[Anonymous No.211868]

>>211864

That might sound like me (OP) but it's not, though I do agree with him.

Radiofag, you're puzzling. What costs are you thinking of? I've already given plenty of examples in this thread of people who live on almost nothing. In one case a man has lived without cash at all for about three years. I don't know what you're talking about.

>>211841

An this sounds so defeatist it's sad. The man in the OP built the house shown with about 5 tools. He walks you through it on his website. He didn't even have any training. Plus, he didn't get permission (as he recommends you to do). To be honest though I don't see why you're even in this thread, it obviously isn't for you.

[Anonymous No.211869]

>>211864
You sound like one of those guys who do things themselves just for the sake of doing things yourself, completely ignorant about the effort and costs connected to some projects. There's a line, and across that line DIY simply becomes impractical.

[Anonymous No.211877]

>>211869

I have to second this. DIY isn't just about doing it yourself for the sake of doing it.

It's about introducing some frugality into your lifestyle and being able to get the best value for your expenditures (Be they time, money, materials, etc.).

This house costs about $4800 USD. That doesn't include the land. You can build one on land you don't own and hope to squat for several years and own it, but then you are risking getting caught in the meantime and losing your nearly 5K investment. On top of that, you'll be homeless.

For around 10K you could just buy a small house in a poor area, land included.

[Anonymous No.211878]

>>211877

>For around 10K you could just buy a small house in a poor area, land included.

I live in England (OP here) and that seems impossible. I seem to remember a number of years ago the cheapest house in England was found and it was about £40,000 and it was a piece of tumbledown shit.

[Anonymous No.211882]

>>211869

>completely ignorant about the effort and costs connected to some projects.

OP here again. I'll admit I'm still researching all of this. I posted here to see if their were any like minded people. But anyway, the costs for these projects are all laid out in the websites. Did you even look at any of the websites I posted? I'm thinking you didn't.

>There's a line, and across that line DIY simply becomes impractical.

I agree, but I don't think anything I've posted so far has crossed that line. Not at all.

[Anonymous No.211883]

>>211878
I can't speak for the property in England. I've seen houses for less than that in areas in Michigan. I bought 1.25 acres with two homes on the plot for 20k. One of them is 900 Sq ft and the other over 2000.

Regardless, it does seem like a risk of a decent sized chunk of money on something you could end up losing by putting it on land you don't own.

[Anonymous No.211884]

>>211882
I wasn't talking to you though, I was talking to that militant DIYer.

[Anonymous No.211886]

>>211882

I think he's talking about all costs, monetary and otherwise.

For example, if you want electricity at all you're going to have to shell out for solar panels or constantly buy fuel for a generator.

If you are doing the former, you're spending many times what you would pay for power in a year initially, and if you are doing the latter you aren't really living off the grid.

Then what do you do if it hails or other debris cracks or otherwise destroys your solar panels? With no money at all what would you do?

I've looked over your links, it's certainly a good way to live and more sustainable. However, it doesn't seem to be overall cheaper when you consider all of the costs, monetary and otherwise.

[Anonymous No.211889]

>>211883

Damn. Well, I have heard before that house prices are cheaper over there.

And yes, it is a risk building on land you don't own. I'm just looking into things at the moment though, I'm still a student. I'm not about to run off to the forest and start building just yet.

[Anonymous No.211890]

>>211886
Depending on your location and power usage solar cells can be profitable as opposed to grid connected electricity after as few as five years. The high initial costs just tend to scare people off.

[Anonymous No.211891]

>>211886

There's an initial investment, sure, but it pays off fairly quickly I think. If we remove ourselves from the off the grid thing for a moment, and just look at self-sustainable living, solar panels etc you can convert a normal house to be eco-friendly and it will reduce all of its bills by a third. It requires investment, sure, but it pays for itself.

[Anonymous No.211893]

>>211890

Expanding on this, some people actually make money from their solar panels by feeding electricity back into the mains (these people are obviously connected to the grid or something but they don't use it)

>>211668

An expanding on this comment, yes, you need to prove you're using the land. Lammas, for instance, proves this by farming the land and running workshops (basket weaving, farming, building things etc). Both of these things validate their claim to the land and provides income. Of course, Lammas is a community of about ten people, it's not just one person, so if an individual were to do this (legitimately) it would be quite different.

[Anonymous No.211894]

>>211886

My solution to that would be before I leave Id save a fair bit of money for supplies, repairs, new tools, internet connection ect. I was planning to do that anyway.

And Im not planning on living in an area with falling debris but that way I see it if those solar panels last 10 years and you get power from them the whole time thats a profit because youve only payed out once. They can last pretty much indefinitely. You would need a large brick with quite some force to smash a solar panel aswell. I used to fit solar panels. And Im the wagon guy btw.

[Anonymous No.211895]

>>211890
>after as few as five years

Meaning it usually takes more. And that's if those panels hold out for the more than half decade it would take for them to pay for themselves.

And that's just one expense.

And what do you do when you've lived like this for years and have no cash at all, then need your appendix out or have a heart attack or stoke?

We used to live like this, then again we used to only live until about 35.

[Anonymous No.211897]

>>211893
>make money from their solar panels by feeding electricity back into the mains
A buddy of mine is studying renewable energy sources, and he said he'd help me get into the matter if I had interest, so I can confirm that this is very much possible. Sadly I won't have the budget for such an expense anytime soon.

[Anonymous No.211899]

What would you need solar panels for anyway? I imagine living off the grid is a very rustic way of living. I don't think internet and phone lines are of much concern.

You'd need shelter, water, and food. Those are the main priorities, right?

[Anonymous No.211900]

>>211895
First of all if you think solar cells fall apart after half a decade you're delusional because the average life span is about four times as much.

And also what the fuck do solar cells have to do with heart attacks?

[Anonymous No.211903]

okay i'm googling things like living off the gird and living without money and watching the videos that pop up. interesting stuff.

the one i'm watching right now: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qRpMAt7Rbv8

[Radiofag No.211904]

>>211864
>Spoken like a fagot who knows NOTHING about living off the grid.
>Spoke like a bundle of twigs

Hilarity aside, I've done it before...an isolated hunting cabin, 20 miles outside a town of a population of 1500.

On a side note though, propane refrigerators are neat.

>That's the most ani-/diy/ thing I've ever seen on this board.

Not at all. It's a challenge for some people.

>>211868
>What costs are you thinking of?
It all depends on what amenities you want to try to bring with you.

Wells are expensive to drill and maintain. For a proper depth potable water well, you'll need a decent sized electric motor. That's added power consumption. Shallow wells, you maybe be able to make do with a hand pump or Aermotor wind pump.

Sewage is a problem. Fecal matter is some seriously toxic stuff and must be disposed of properly. Urine & graywater aren't that bad though.

Heating and cooling is an issue as well. Sure, you can get a wood stove...but I'll warn you, they are frustrating to maintain. There's nothing worse than waking up to a half-frozen cabin. Non-gasifying designs are kinda "rude" because of the amount of pollutants they spew.

>I've already given plenty of examples in this thread of people who live on almost nothing. In one case a man has lived without cash at all for about three years. I don't know what you're talking about. Propane is fairly costly. CNG is slightly cheaper. Off-grid electric heating is almost impossible unless you have a constant sizable power source.

But, as said. It all depends on what creature comforts you want to bring with.

youtube "Dick Proennke"

[Anonymous No.211907]

>>211904
The last time I checked all kinds of people used all kinds of (literally) crap as fertilizer so I can't see the danger and so called toxicity behind it.

[Radiofag No.211909]

>>211890
Solar panels are quite fragile and often rated for a 20 year lifespan, with the largest amount of degradation in the first 5 years.

They are also not in the realm of an amateur to repair or maintain.

Small scale wind is where it's at. It's not technologically complex. Some magnets, blades, and bearings. Bigger designs have problems with lubrication. They also have oil cooled bearings. Anything under about 10-15 kw though likely has regular old bearings with grease. This is the only wear part on wind turbines.

If you run into rough weather, you can easily remake blades...they are often the first to fail in a catastrophic occurrence. With replacement, your wind turbine is up and running again.

Deep cycle batteries are BY FAR the most expensive component of a system of power generation. This is one of the perks with hydroelectric...you only need a few batteries to act as a buffer, other than that, the system is "on" constantly, though the amount of power generated will change with weather / time of year.

Again, like wind, hydroelectric generators are easy to maintain. Replacement parts usually include the wheel itself, water nozzles, and bearings.

[Anonymous No.211908]

>>211904

Watching videos about Dick's cabin now. It looks really nice.

Most of the people, actually I think all of the people, I've seen doing this have used wood burning stoves. I've never used one myself. I assume some people build their homes with heat in mind. There are some builds that use tyres tightly packed with mud that are said to be highly efficient in this regard. Some people also close their houses into the sides of hills too, I think, and make sure that the entrance faces the sun, to attract and keep in heat.

As for sewage, everyone seems to be using compost toilets. Again, never used one, know little about them.

I watched a video recently about a guy that dug his own well. Not a minor feat, I'm sure, but he did it. Mark Boyle, the man without money, simply drinks from and bathes in a local river.

[Anonymous No.211918]

>>211909
>>211890
Nickle/iron batteries (Edison batteries) work well with solar power because they have about the same life expectancy. Cells last 30-50 years, the batteries last at least that. If you use lead/acid deep cycle batteries then you need to replace them every 5 years.

[Radiofag No.211920]

>>211907
>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Night_soil

We're very gross living beings.

With that being said, urine is actually a better choice as a fertilizer than feces. There's no risk of infections, parasites, or other potentially sickening misadventures. The only downside is the quantity of ammonia present in it...if you really wanted to go all out, you could distill it out fairly simply.

>>211908
Properly dampered, 3 x dry logs, about 10" x 30" would last about 4 hours...it was enough to heat a 1400 sq ft cabin.

Wells, generally, the deeper you drill, the better. You may find potable water at 20 ft...in Michigan, this is usually the case. But, true drinking water, most well drillers prefer DEEP wells. More soil + sand = more filtration.

Sanitation, your biggest concern is keeping your sewage from contaminating yourself or your water supply.

[Radiofag No.211923]

>>211918
They don't hold a charge very well...I don't think I've ever seen a commercial unit for sale either.

[Anonymous No.211924]

>>211920

The guy in the OP used straw to build his house, covered with a lie render. I hear that's really good at keeping in the heat. He just uses a wood burning stove to heat the place. He also lived there with his wife and child. He lives at Lammas now, which is similar to his build, but it's a community rather than a solo project.

You're more knowledgeable on these things so I am so I can't really say anything, but I see lots of people doing it and just wonder why I can't too.

[Anonymous No.211928]

>>211924

*lime render

[Anonymous No.211943]

>>211923
The charge gets better the more you use them. They're slowly gaining in popularity again due to off grid living and solar arrays as they're ideal for it. You can easily find them for sale with a simple Google search.

[Anonymous No.211945]

>>211943
No, they waste more energy trying to charge them over their life time than lead acid and the loss in energy because of that does not make up for using them.

[Radiofag No.211958]

>>211943
$900 for 12v/100ah

Wow.

A 12v/130ah Trojan deep cycle is about $200.

[Anonymous No.211961]

>>They're slowly gaining in popularity again due to off grid living and solar arrays as they're ideal for it.
Because a bunch of the people into this stuff are seriously gullible.

Even with the longer life their price per kilowatt hour is idiotically high.

[Anonymous No.211978]

youtube JMEmantzel for ultimate off the grid diy god

[Anonymous No.212176]

>>211868

Well if you are seriously ready to live with no electricity, no hot water and nothing related to society's comfort then I apology but you better do EVERYTHING without society.

Good luck! (sincerely, if you do it you have my respect, no irony)

[Anonymous No.212190]

my uncle lives off the grid. in a fucking shelter for homeless people because he is batshit insane. what the fuck is wrong with you kids? your moms and dads say you cant watch comedy central past 9PM so you want to live out on your own.

living right now is hard enough even with the 12 pounds of techno gadgets that keep us from killing ourselves. do you know what its like to be out in a woods or in an alley for longer than 12 hours.

real life is scary you pricks. you want to live in an outhouse when suffering people all over the world would do horrible horrible things to have the chance to have the comforts you do.

fuck i hate these threads.

do you know what its like to get sick or hurt out in the woods when no one is around to help you. boy o boy i bet you would take advantage of the system then? doctors, welfare, free clinics.

you are not proud and self reliant. you are a scumbag no sense leach who only wants to take from the system that minimally keeps you safe, fed, and healthy and maximally gives you every bit a chance as anyone else to make it big

this thread isnt about living off the grid. you hate yourself for being such a self centered failure.

my advice- grow up. try doing something for someone else in the world. try being someone other epople look up to. fuck anon, just do something. anything. and do it well.

[Anonymous No.212197]

>>212190
>what the fuck is wrong with you kids?
>you are not proud and self reliant. you are a scumbag no sense leach who only wants to take from the system that minimally keeps you safe, fed, and healthy and maximally gives you every bit a chance as anyone else to make it big
Huh? Living off the grid = leech? I don't know why you anti-diy conservative buyfags even browse /diy/. Why don't you just start a thread on /pol/ about how these fucking hypocritical off-grid faggots are total libtard welfare queens? They might actually understand what it is you're saying.

[Anonymous No.212198]

>>212190
you are an idiot.

[Anonymous No.212205]

>>212197
he's not totally wrong, why would someone want to leave society's comfort? you have to see in as satan like pseudo-emo kids to think like that, since decades society is shaped to increase our wealth, saying that you are a slave of society is right but it is a good thing

simple example, you are 60, you need a pacemaker, do you just tell yourself "well i dont want society technology, i'd rather die" or would you take it ? no rhetorical question, just want to know how people like you think

i am sort of someone like op, except me i take only what i want from society, no extremes

[Anonymous No.212218]

>>212190
What on earth are you on about, anon? Do you not at all know what living off the grid means today? It is not hiding, it is not living in a shelter for homeless people, it is nothing like that at all.

It is merely structuring your life so that you make all your own utilities like water, sewer, and electric. You have a septic field, water well, and electric generator (solar, wind, hydro, fuel-based, etc.) It is about growing and raising your own food by planting gardens and raising livestock.

Obviously there are different degrees of living-off-the-grid. Some people only want electric independence. Some want it all. Some want to get back to nature and not actually use electric, which is fine, because they do not need electric to thrive.

I'm almost living off the grid. My gardening is bigger than ever this year and getting bigger. I'm putting up my own greenhouse soon. I'm working on making wind turbines, developing passive solar, turning to a whole food plant-based diet, have my own water well, and my own septic system. I've been able to pay off ALL my debts and I'm DEBT FREE. So, I am nearly retired simply because of that one fact. I no longer need to make tons of money and with each part that I become more self-sufficient, the less I need to work for other people for money.

Living off-the-grid, is about self-reliance and self-sustainment to the point where you can live a nice, comfortable, and rewarding life.

[Anonymous No.212219]

>>212190
>my uncle lives off the grid. in a fucking shelter for homeless people because he is batshit insane.

That isn't living off the grid.

>living right now is hard enough even with the 12 pounds of techno gadgets that keep us from killing ourselves.

No it is not. You're personal life is merely structured to be dependent on those items and social systems.

>do you know what its like to be out in a woods or in an alley for longer than 12 hours.

Most people that go camping know all about what it is like being in the woods for normally 1-2 weeks with minimal gear. However, I don't think being in an alley has anything to do with living off the grid. Since living off the grid is normally a sane person's choice, while those that live in alleys are usually mentally compromised in some way.

>real life is scary you pricks.

Why do you think life is scary, anon? It certainly is not scary in the slightest to me.

>you want to live in an outhouse

No, I think I'll live in my 2-story house with big front porch that my relatives and I built.

>when suffering people all over the world would do horrible horrible things to have the chance to have the comforts you do.

They have problems because they are ignorant to how much power they really have or they are mentally compromised.

>fuck i hate these threads.

Use thread hide so you never see them again.

>do you know what it's like to get sick or hurt out in the woods when no one is around to help you.

Yes, I do. I had an accident with an axe that hit my leg and gashed it open across the shin bone. I had to walk 2 miles back to my house while my shoe filled with blood. I sutured it and went back to work that evening.

[Anonymous No.212220]

>>212190
>doctors, welfare, free clinics.

These things are typically not lumped in with the things you don't use when living off the grid.

>you are not proud and self reliant. you are a scumbag no sense leach who only wants to take from the system that minimally keeps you safe, fed, and healthy and maximally gives you every bit a chance as anyone else to make it big
>this thread isn't about living off the grid. you hate yourself for being such a self centered failure.

It seems much more likely that you are projecting or merely trolling. Perhaps both. I believe you need to rethink your own home situation. You seem like you feel you lack control over your own life and it shows a lot throughout your post.

>try doing something for someone else in the world.

Living off the grid helps greatly for society as a whole. It places less stress on society and shows people that know you how to better their lives with a different way of living.

>try being someone other people look up to. fuck anon, just do something. anything. and do it well.

People do look up to me. I teach people about living off the grid, how to make self-reliant systems, how to set up small family and village networks for supporting each other with products they make themselves.

[Anonymous No.212224]

>>212205
>he's not totally wrong, why would someone want to leave society's comfort?

He has an incorrect and hostile view towards something he only know a bare minimum about as well as what he knows being incorrect.

>why would someone want to leave society's comfort?

"Society's comfort" is very subjective and relative. What each person sees as a comfort is different. This is why you see some people sleeping in sleeping bags in tents when camping and other people sleep in actual beds in $50,000 campers that have microwaves.

If you look at someone's lifestyle and think, "this is terrible, I couldn't live without my Xbox/PC/Coffeemaker/etc" then you are imposing and projecting your own belief of comfort onto someone that does not at all hold your beliefs. Doing this is the wrong way to look at things from the get go.

>simple example, you are 60, you need a pacemaker,

People who have a lot of knowledge about how to live healthy and they live healthy do not need pace makers and rarely get sick or need extreme medical attention such as a pace maker.. Those that need pace makers are people that normally live up to societies comforts and way of life which in itself is a hindrance to one's health and well being.

>i am sort of someone like op, except me i take only what i want from society, no extremes

That is very good. You know what you want for yourself. However, remember that you do not know what other people want for themselves and you should not impose upon them with your own wants and respect them for their own choices.

[Anonymous No.212234]

>>212224
>>If you look at someone's lifestyle
A lot of people in Africa would love to have a society which kills their food for them or store water for them. I see your point but it is only from northern hemisphere's people's lifestyle, every other ethnic groups have a natural instinct to evolve, get in a group (society) and take benefits from it.

>>People who have a lot of knowledge about how to live healthy and they live healthy do not need pace makers
Then I was fooled and decades of sciences were useless if we can cure cancer with herbs? Basic medicines can be made of course but if we talk about a broken leg, a surgeon who studied 8 years the human body by learning studies of thousands years of medicine will always be a better choice. Knowledge split through members of a society will always be more effective.

Living off the grid is great but I don't see why someone would want to ignore humankind's past, knowledge and capacities it has only in groups and I would like to understand that.

[Anonymous No.212242]

>>212234
>Then I was fooled and decades of sciences were useless if we can cure cancer with herbs?

Therein lies the problem. The thinking that you need to cure cancer. You only need to prevent cancer. Much of modern food and products are actually responsible for creating cancer and increasing its growth. Yes, I can safely say you...we are being fooled. As to whether it is intentional or not, I'll not debate.

Normally, living off the grid has nothing to do with medical independence,

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Off-the-grid

Thus, it is a bit irrelevent to discuss it since it can easily derail the thread a great deal. Is that DIY medical thread still around? That would be the better place to discuss it.

>Living off the grid is great but I don't see why someone would want to ignore humankind's past, knowledge and capacities it has only in groups and I would like to understand that.

That's just it. You use modern knowledge for your own personal needs which easily frees you of the mass society. You must understand that local, small groups of people are far more natural, healthy, and sustainable than a city of millions; from a statistic point of view. The reason people can live off the grid and do it very successfully in the modern age is because information is now available to everyone is many forms. I myself have a 10,000+ book library where at least 1/4 of that is pure information textbooks. That doesn't even include the vast and expanding information on the internet.

[Anonymous No.212247]

>>212242
>>You use modern knowledge for your own personal needs

To me that's against nature as it has only one way, you have to acquire knowledge to be able to do that and there are no other ways. Your children will have to acquire it too, and then again, after decades they will write books, people will specialize themselves in certain domains and of course, some people will do like op and it will start over.

Therefore that's a very selfish idea, leaving family, friends, all those who gave you the knowledge you will need, the money you used to buy those books etc.

I guess I am too blinded by the idea of hippies and rastas who denigrate society but are still very close from it, maybe people like op are really determined and aware of their condition

[Anonymous No.212249]

>>212242
Also, I have often heard about this "cancer is not cured but avoided" thing, do you have more documents on this? And could you please share some book titles on stand-alone electricity supply or how a off the grid village would work?
I'd like to learn things on this!
(I'm not against off the grid groups, I am simply too addicted to the Internet social & share system and entertainment, it could sound weird but that's my only goal in life even if I hope it will not be it for a long time)

[Anonymous No.212252]

>>212249
This should be the best starts for your own research into this line of subject,

http://www.examiner.com/article/china-study-proves-the-link-between-cancer-and-nutrition

The China Study
ISBN-10: 1932100385

Prevent and Reverse Heart Disease
ISBN-10: 1583332723

Dr. Neal Barnard's Program for Reversing Diabetes: The Scientifically Proven System for Reversing Diabetes without Drugs
ISBN-10: 1594868107

Forks Over Knives
http://www.hulu.com/watch/279734/forks-over-knives
www.forksoverknives.com

>>212247
This post reads like a knee-jerk response defense. I believe answering it would be tantamount to answering a troll reply.

[Anonymous No.212282]

>>212252
The posts you are quoting are both from the same person (me), why am I wrong in the first one?

[Anonymous No.212332]

I like all of this discussion! I'm learning a lot about the different thoughts behind being self-reliant, this is pretty dang cool.

I want to contribute what I have been reading about.

I found a few torrents on Demonoid- books written by Mike Oehler
his site: http://www.undergroundhousing.com/

His idea is that if you partially sink a house into the earth, you can get better insulation and protection for less money.
Essentially, you place a plastic barrier between your wooden posts and shoring. The plastic described in the book (polyethylene?) only degrades in sunlight.

He also wrote a more complex book about a similar style of greenhouse that I'm interested in.

[Anonymous No.212339]

>>212332
I have this book (more like pamphlet). whatever that mike guy wrote is better than this.

[Anonymous No.212351]

>>212332
Thanks!

[Anonymous No.212602]

there are some intelligent, thoughtful posts in this thread, and then there are some straight up fucking retarded posts. seriously, some of the dumbest shit i've seen.

i think these sort of projects are fantastic and anyone that can actually do it has all of my respect.

[Anonymous No.212771]

>>212252
You were talking about knowledge, then you fucked it up by posting woo. You might as well post books about astrology or how to dispel curses.

[Anonymous No.212797]

http://opensourceecology.org/wiki/Main_Page
Compressed earth blocks and wind power mayne. Also, to throw in my two cents: I like the idea of off-grid because it allows me to interact completely with society and all the "normal" conveniences like doctors and paved roads, but provides me a degree of insulation against its "normal" consequences like a goddam financial meltdown or food borne illness. There really is no tradeoff for me. I save money up front, then I save money by consuming less which gives me the opportunity to maybe work less, retire early, be more charitable, or enjoy more disposable income.

[Anonymous No.212805]

I haven't seen mention of passive solar and passive geothermal or daylighting in this thread, all of which would dramatically reduce your home's consumption without any sacrifice in comfort. Passive options also obey that supreme law of engineering: design something to be as complicated as it needs to be, and no more. Each has a high return, is low maintenance, and have low cost diy building options. I think that addresses the arguments here about off grid ideas being unnecessarily difficult when compared to a normal lifestyle.
Also, for people who heat their homes with wood, another option I've seen is making compressed leaf/paper/scrap bricks by chopping, soaking, and binding leaves/stuff with a wheat paste/glue then compressing them in a mold. Leaves are plentiful immediately before the time of year you might need to heat your home the most, so that just seems to me like a very practical, convenient option.

[Anonymous No.212834]

>>212771
Aww, poor thing. You'll be okay. One day you'll learn how to extract pertinent information from various sources.

[Anonymous No.213000]

What i want to do is save up, buy and acre, build ten and start a community, create our own food, create out own electricity with solar pannels and wind turbines, have our own gardens for fruit, a well, and water systems to collect water, and live it out in a close village community. We would need some money, how thats going to be generated is still to be known

[Anonymous No.213006]

>>213000

That's a dream of mine too.

[Anonymous No.213009]

>>213006
Do it then. I'm going to do it in my gap year. i'm going to build my own home to live off.

[Anonymous No.213033]

>>211869
>I have to second this. DIY isn't just about doing it yourself for the sake of doing it.
Umm, speak for yourself mate.

As an example: I do all of the regular maintenance on my truck: spark plugs, plug wires, oil, coolant, filters, and that sort of thing. This is because I enjoy doing it, and in the final analysis, it is more expensive for me to do all of this.
Yes, looking at just the cost of purchasing all of the various inputs and comparing that to the cost of having someone else do it makes it appear more expensive, until you factor in time. I can drop my truck off while I'm doing something else, have someone else take care of all of that stuff in probably about half of the time it takes me.
Now for me, the valuation of my time is really, really easy because I'm self-employed. I make violins. Any time that I'm not making a violin or otherwise involved with the selling/repair/trade of violins, I am not making money. I assure you that those hours are far more valuable to me than the amount of money I'd have to pay to get my truck serviced.

Incidentally, this does not mean that if your not self-employed, your time outside of your job is worthless because there are still things you could be doing other than your chosen activity that bring you benefit. Earlier I was speaking purely about cash because that's the easiest to quantify; however, even just doing something because you value the warm-fuzzy you get from doing it is just as valid of a valuation.
<continued>

[Anonymous No.213034]

>>211869
(pt. 2)
In the end, you always have to spend resources to do something. There's really no such thing as being "frugal" except in the strictest "you don't spend money" sense, but this does not mean that being frugal is cheaper as not spending money can easily lose you money.

In the end DIY is a state of mind that does boil down to "doing it because you can"--even if the person mistakenly believes it is necessarily "cheaper". That sort merely values their time and effort less than their money.

[Anonymous No.213102]

>>212834
Silly goof, I already know that, that's how I know your sources are full of woo.

[Anonymous No.213108]

>>213033
>and in the final analysis, it is more expensive for me to do all of this.

This has never been the case for me. I always save a great deal of money when fixing my truck over taking it to a shop.

This only means that there's exceptions to every bullshit pedantic scenario cooked up ITT.

[Anonymous No.213111]

>>213102
>>212771
>post nothing but ad hominems
>pretend you are not trolling

GTFO /diy/, you don't belong here.

[Anonymous No.213119]

Respect to the hobbit, but he only built the house for £3000 because he got the land for free from a farmer, otherwise, if he had to pay for the land it would have cost much more.

[Anonymous No.213120]

>>213033
You cannot tell me changing oil, filters, or spark plugs is a more expensive use of your time. If that is the case you are one inept dumb ass, because that can be done in like no time compared to taking it to the shop, along with a shit ton of other projects, like brakes.

[Anonymous No.213124]

>>211663
Also my plan. Except I would either buy a prefab or build a cabin near a stream. And I'm a veggie so I wouldn't have to worry about meat.

[Anonymous No.213340]

Many times.
One idea: Quanset hut with modular rooms.
Build each room separate and able to float on an air cushion. Air pumped in will lift up the room and you push it into place. Hallways latch everything solid and electrical is handled by large power cords. Only rooms not easily moved are the kitchen and bath because of the plumbing. So every so often you rearrange your house and mess people up.

[Radiofag No.213342]

>>213120
Depends. If your time is valued at more than $75/hr, it is wasted time from an economics standpoint.

[Anonymous No.213466]

>>213342
Yeah, ok then. You better give up sleeping, because you're wasting 600 bucks a night on that shit. People like you are just fucking ridiculous.

[Radiofag No.213467]

>>213466
Not at all.

From an economics standpoint, I apply utility value. Would you give up an hour of sleep for $75? Maybe 2 hours? 3? 5? 8? 15? 24? 48? 120 hours?

Bottom line, there comes a point when I value sleep more than the value of the activity of doing something that produces money.

[Anonymous No.213523]

>>213000
become armish

[Anonymous No.213534]

>>213111
You're a moron. Enjoy your woo. Next you'll be telling us to look out for reptilian overlords.

[Anonymous No.213559]

>>211893
>make money from their solar panels by feeding electricity back into the mains

Most people who say they "make money" are merely paying off the cost of the solar panels. You don't actually start making money until:
(kWh produced) x ($ per kWh charged by utility co) > (total $ spent buying and installing panels).

>>211923
>Infographic: have a garden, 3 pigs, 2 goats, and 13 chickens.

That's 4 things that, together, will take up all your time. Where's the time to have a job?

If you're going to raise 3 pigs, it's barely any more work to raise 6 pigs, or 9 pigs. Instead of splitting your time between 3 types of animals, you could put the same time and effort into raising a lot more of just one type.

Producing your own food and power is extremely inefficient. By shunning grocery stores, you can produce food for your family. But by working with the grocery stores, a farmer can produce and sell food for 155 people! By shunning the power utilities, you can produce electricity for your house. But by multiple people banning together to form a utility company, that utility can produce electricity for thousands of houses.

[Anonymous No.213561]

>>213342
>>213467
Time and money doesn't work that way. It only applies to 8 hours per day. Applying it to anything else is retarded. This means if you work 8 hours a day making whatever wage then go home to DIY for 3 hours, you can't count the DIY time as the same as your wage time.

If you take off work for the day and spend your work hours doing a DIY project then yes you can say that the job cost you X amount per hour based on the wages you'd normally be getting for those 8 hours.

[Anonymous No.213566]

>>213561
Does that mean I can count 1.5x that value if I give up an opportunity to work an overtime day in order to DIY?

[Anonymous No.213576]

>>213566
You're being pedantic.

[Anonymous No.213591]

>>213576
Nope, just pointing out the natural supplement of your own logic. It's actually a concept that's at the forefront of the decision whether I should volunteer for overtime, a decision I face weekly.

[Anonymous No.213600]

>>213559

Probably the only person on /diy/ to have actually raised pigs (as atalented /diy/er. 3 pigs is a much simpler operation than 6,9 or more. 3 little piggies (they really are super cute as piglets) will fit in a single barn stall their whole lives. 9 pigs needs the whole barn and outside space to rut plus poop management.

[Anonymous No.213632]

>>213591
lol morons

[Anonymous No.213782]

>>211893
>some people actually make money from their solar panels by feeding electricity back into the mains
That's because some government subsidies will pay them 8 to 10x what they charge people for electricity. It's not economically viable without taxpayers funding it.

[Anonymous No.213812]

Yes I have considered it and I would love to. Maybe not completely off the grid since I'd need a tiny income to buy the nice stuff like electricity, heating etc.

The problem is just I got plans for my career and this doesn't fit together. If I had a second life I'd do this for sure. Maybe I'll do it when I'm 50 and still not rich (or just for fun if I'm very rich)

[crük No.213939]

that house looks like shrek's

[Radiofag No.213954]

>>213559
I don't disagree, economies of scale is a wonderful thing!

The infographic gives you a wonderful idea though of what it takes to support a household.

[Anonymous No.214027]

>>213939
Or like a Hobbit's home, which is perfectly fine by me.

[Anonymous No.214333]

http://tinyhouseblog.com/earthcob/simple-life-history/

Like a boss.

[Anonymous No.214368]

>>211908
>Mark Boyle, the man without money, simply drinks from and bathes in a local river

As a med student whose just finished studying for tomorrow's human parasitology test, I can assure you that is a stupid thing to be doing.

[Anonymous No.214377]

>>214368
Forgot to add picture. Those things (liver flukes) swim around just waiting to be ingested by a large mammal and once you have them, you absolutely need a doctor. Just one of the numerous cute little critters you might contract.

[Anonymous No.214407]

>>214368
>>214377

He purifies the water before drinking. I doubt he purifies it before washing though. People have been washing in streams for fucking aeons, Even old ass men and women do it.

[Anonymous No.214419]

>>214407
Enjoy your increased chances of getting a nice pair of blood flukes that will stay with you for the rest of your life.

[Anonymous No.214420]

>>214368
Have you read "Parasite Rex"? Good read.

[Anonymous No.214444]

>>214377
>>214419

Blood flukes (Genus schistosoma) are actually not really a problem in Europe and North America. They live mostly in Africa, Asia and South America according to my book. Sure, there's still a chance of getting something nasty (like Naegleria fowlesi, a single cell organism that goes from your nose to your brain through the olfactory nerve) while washing or swimming, but the chances are low. No need to get paranoid.

>>214420

None of the local libraries have it, so no go :(

[pooperschmitt No.214452]

this summer im going to go no norther Idaho and find a small plot of land and build there don't know how well its going to go tho. i'm probably going to build first b4 i live in it

[Anonymous No.214574]

oh you guys reminded me of these episodes of scishow:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uvdiYg6ZN-U
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ABeBqbBy2Lo

[Anonymous No.214692]

>>214452

>not living in the house before you build it

full pleb

[Anonymous No.214736]

>>214574
There's actually more research about Toxoplasma Gondii than he mentioned. For example, people that have Toxoplasma are more likely to get in a car accident. Also, women that have Toxoplasma, are more promiscuous. Go figure :/

[Anonymous No.214740]

>>214736
I have it and I REALLY have to keep a hold on my impulsiveness. I wasn't like this prior to having tons of cats. I'm male, fyi. I can see why people with it can have more car accidents. You have this impatient feeling to, "just get going!" when you are pulling up to an intersection or to go around someone. You have less tendency to look both ways. It's scary sometimes.

[Anonymous No.214789]

>>214740
>I have it
Y u no treat it?
Or do you mean
>I'm impulsive so I blame it on a parasite

[Anonymous No.214837]

>>214789
>Y u no treat it?

There's no need. I don't have HIV and I can't get pregnant.

[Anonymous No.214882]

I found a documentary about this guy Michael Reynolds, who builds awesome resilient houses out of garbage like glass bottles, old car tires and beer cans. And those things are beautiful too! Domes made out of bottles and plaster.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YrMJwIedrWU&feature=related

pic related

[Anonymoose No.215007]

While we're at it,might as well give a link to "Tinker Town"

http://tinkertown.com/

The most awesome small time museum of sorts in the US.