Air Conditioner Woes

[Anonymous No.1692438]

Sup, /diy/

I "fixed" my air conditioner condenser a week ago by replacing the fan capacitor. It was working just fine until yesterday evening when I heard the fan making a weird sound. I went outside to check the condenser and it was fluctuating quite a bit in its speed. I have the condenser a tap and the fan stopped spinning altogether. I tried to give it a shove with a wooden dowel to get it spinning again and it was stiff. Couldn't budge it at all with the power running. So I pulled the breaker and tried to rotate it and had no issue. I let it sit overnight, tried running it again, and the fan cooked in for maybe a minute before stopping again and seizing up with the power supplied.

What would be causing this? Is the condenser fan shot? Did I do something as stupid as hook up the capacitor backwards? The last reason doesn't make much sense because it worked just fine for a week, or so, and I wired it back the same way as the old capacitor.

[Anonymous No.1692493]

>>1692438
If you replaced the cap with the correct one then it's probably your motor taking a crap. Is it getting really hot? Is it in better condition than that capacitor (rusty/old)? Condenser fan motors often go out within 5 years here depending on how they run and how much sun they get. If I see a capacitor/contactor/motor that needs replacement, I usually advise to replace the others soon if they look original to avoid callbacks.

[Anonymous No.1692502]

>>1692493
Yeah, it's probably the motor taking a shit. That was the old cap and this motor doesn't look new.

What sort of brick and mortar store would sell a generic condenser fan motor? I have no desire to wait for Amazon or anything because it's still too fucking hot here to wait.

[Anonymous No.1692537]

An HVAC supplier is probably the only local place you're going to find something like that.

[Anonymous No.1692545]

>>1692502
Around here I think Naughton's. A lot of the little hardware stores like Ace sometimes carry shitty universal replacements, but you'll have better luck online. Not sure if I've ever seen one at Home Depot but every old bastard in town thinks he can get his hands on one easily so they can't be that hard to come by in person.

[Anonymous No.1692557]

>>1692545
>>1692537
I just used an appliance spare part dealer I've used before. I should have known better. Thanks for the help once again, /diy/.

[Anonymous No.1692599]

The first you do is searching for local shops instead of amazon or 4chan OP, anyway, to make it more interesting, in a mad max scenario and all you could do is scrapping, how much would pic related last if the measures are right?

[Anonymous No.1692976]

>>1692599
Not long at all. Maybe .5 seconds

[Anonymous No.1693000]

>>1692976

If the voltage rating is the same it will last as long as any cap. If the capacitance is correct, it will work correctly.

[Anonymous No.1693001]

>>1692438
Your motor is cooked. What model is it?

[Anonymous No.1693002]

>>1693001
It's a 1/6 hp single phase 230V thing. Not sure if it's the original, but I bought some generic one to replace it.

[Anonymous No.1693040]

>>1693002
Make sure your motor rotates the same way as the original or you’re gonna be making a new thread on her real quick. Also, make sure you put the blade in the same spot as the old one. Sometimes old motors are 3.5” - 4” tall and the new ones are 5.5” and the blade will be a little too far down the shaft not sitting correctly in the shroud and it won’t pull air across the coil correctly.

[Anonymous No.1693066]

>>1693000
I challenge you to find caps that small that is rated at 370 or 440

[Anonymous No.1693077]

>>1693040
I think I put the blades in roughly the same spot, and this motor has jumpers to spin either way. I guess the only question I have left is which way SHOULD it rotate?

[Anonymous No.1693163]

>>1693077
counter-clockwise from this photo's perspective, the air needs to come up and out

[Anonymous No.1693166]

>>1693163
Thanks. I think whatever moron last messed with it had the fan spinning the wrong way. I recall it spinning clock wise from giving it a push start when the capcitor died. I should have realized something was wrong then...

[Anonymous No.1693169]

>>1693166
The fan blade could also be on upside down, but I can't tell from the image. You want the fan as close to the motor as possible, without it scraping anything. The side with the nut should be facing away from the motor to allow bringing it closer on the shaft.

[Anonymous No.1693175]

>>1693169
Nah, it's definitely pullijg the air up and out. As far as positioning, it's about as close as it can get without scraping some bolts. I might fuss with it some more later, but it's cooling my house just fine right now.

[Anonymous No.1693197]

>>1692438
>Couldn't budge it at all with the power running.
the bearing is worn and the armature is pulled against the field by the magnetic attraction that is supposed to make it rotate.
The armature is dragging.
With the power off there is no magnetic field to bind the armature against the field.
When the bearings die it's time to replace the motor.
The bearings aren't considered field replaceable.

[Anonymous No.1693241]

>>1693169
>The fan blade could also be on upside down,

I cant believe what im seeing. if you take a standard ac fan blade and "turn it upside down" it will be in the same orientation as it was before. you cant put a fan blade on backwards. what matters is which way the blades are angled, determines which way the motor will have to spin to move air in the direction you need.

if the motor is spinning in the wrong direction then sure it wont be effective.

[Anonymous No.1693247]

>>1693241
Okay, that was dumb, but the side with the mounting ring and nut should still be facing away from the motor.

[Anonymous No.1693272]

>>1693247

you are dumb. even if you put the blade on upside down the blades would still have the same ANGLE.

[Anonymous No.1693294]

>>1693272
fan blades are scooped dipshit, they arent a straight angle from end to end. theyre slightly curved to scoop the air in the right direction

[Anonymous No.1693301]

>this entire thread

[Anonymous No.1693310]

>>1693294

this. nobody inverts the scoop.

[Anonymous No.1693355]

>>1693166
>I recall it spinning clock wise from giving it a push start when the capcitor died
The motor will run either direction if the capacitor is dead.
It runs whichever way you push it.
>>1692438
>Couldn't budge it at all with the power running.
When the bearing are worn enough, the armature will be pulled against the stator by the magnetic field which is supposed to be spinning it.
>>1692438
>I pulled the breaker and tried to rotate it and had no issue.
Because the magnetic field wasn't there to pull the parts together.

[Anonymous No.1693356]

>>1693294
>>1693310

[Anonymous No.1693357]

>>1693355
>The motor will run either direction if the capacitor is dead.
Huh, you learn something new everyday. In either case, it's running fine now. Thanks for the help /diy/.

[Anonymous No.1693426]

Are old air conditioner compressors normally a bit loud even if they're running fine? My unit's fan motor just died and I'm trying to figure out if I can just fix that, or if I'll ultimately need to replace the compressor too, but it's been loud as long since I've moved in so I don't have a reference point.

[Anonymous No.1693453]

>>1693426
>replace the compressor
depending on the age of the unit and brand, it would be a better idea to just hook up a whole new condenser. fuck changing compressors.

[Anonymous No.1693458]

>>1693426
If it's been that loud for that long, I wouldn't worry about it.
Fan motors are ~$50 - $100 - fix that and use it till it quits.
I have some units that are loud that were installed in the 70s.
> Lenox tanks

[Anonymous No.1693461]

>>1693453
Yeah, it's a Lennox '70s unit, HS9-something-or-another. The serial number wore off at least a decade ago, but my guess is that it's original to the house.

[Anonymous No.1693462]

>>1693461
Meant to respond to >>1693458

[Anonymous No.1693467]

>>1693461
~30 years isn't a bad runtime for a resi AC. Its in the waning years of its life.

[Anonymous No.1693472]

>>1693467
Realistically I have no qualms replacing the unit if the compressor does go. For now I'll just replace the fan motor and hopefully get another summer out of it.

[Anonymous No.1693509]

>>1693472
Don't skimp on replacing the evap too. If you're gonna drop for a new condenser, you might as well take the whole system. Get better efficiency and resale value.

[Anonymous No.1693720]

>>1693426
>>1693461
After 20 years they start to nickel and dime you. Around here they don't go much past that because of the sun/heat, but some guys in other parts of the country will say otherwise. A big red flag that it's aged is when the model plate is FUCKING GONE though, I would think.

About 10-15 years old I see them start to have minor electrical issues. Refrigerant only leaks if it's faulty equipment or install in this time. It gets pretty easy to sell new systems after 20 years when after the 15 year mark they start getting hit with $500+ repairs/maintenance every year or two.

If your compressor is loud, but not violently shaking or anything and the sound doesn't bother anyone, ride that sucker till it's dead. I would put a new motor in it. A new motor if you put it in yourself is probably under $100. A compressor requires a licensed contractor and at that point you might as well replace the entire condenser if it's a split system, then you have to think that it's a similarly aged coil inside so probably a good idea to change that out instead of wait for a leak. Then it's loads easier to just replace the furnace/air handler too while you're at it. It's a slippery slope either way you go, but I would at least replace the condenser if my compressor took a shit. You can replace the motor on a car with a million miles on it, but then the rest of it is still all beat to shit no matter how shiny the new motor is.

[Anonymous No.1693903]

>>1693461
The seer on that old unit is around 6 or less. If you installed a new unit and coil the seer will be at least 13 and that means you will save half or better of the running cost in the summer. There will be a complete payback on electrical bills in a few years. The new ones last up to 20 years in the South USA, longer, up in the North.

[Anonymous No.1693906]

>>1693720
YOU CAN NOT USE A OLD EVAP COIL ON NEW 410A CONDENSERS. Both the pressures and SEER ratings are different. It is more then a code thing. It is a total idiot thing.

[Anonymous No.1693916]

>>1693906
No but you can buy a "dry" 407C condenser, purge the system of all mineral oil residue, add oil neutralizer, then charge with R22. It's retarded but some of our cheapass customers have us do it that way.

[Anonymous No.1693921]

>>1693720
I worked on a church in Atlanta that had a bunch of 40 year old systems still in use 6 years ago. Most of them used R500 and they were going strong with few problems. Though the bottoms of the condensers were rusting through as well as the skimpy dinky drain pans. I used gutter to fix the drain pan problem and bricks to hold up the cast iron compressors. Every nut and bolt was rusted solid and every screw broke while I tried to take them out. They were only used on Sundays before the church started to rent out unused parts of the building to day cares and office space 3 years ago. 9 of the 14 7.5 ton and 12 ton ACs broke down, within a few years after daily use. They used 80 amp strip heaters and the breaker boxes buss bars feeding them mostly burnt up at the breakers. The church had no money and I quit servicing them.

[Anonymous No.1693922]

>>1693903
I believe 13 seer is only the minimum in zone 5. All other zones require at least 14 seer. It's not worth going above minimum in zones 4 or 5 from a cost perspective as you'll never save enough on energy to offset the additional cost.

[Anonymous No.1693923]

>>1693916
>then charge with R22
What?
Also I sure hope you vac the nitrogen out of the condenser. Also you need another co to work for.

[Anonymous No.1693925]

>>1693922
What sort of system would you recommend to someone with a ~100 year old, 1300 sq. ft. home in the deep south?

[Anonymous No.1693926]

>>1693922
And the payback is not worth going above 14 SEER in the rest of the country, no mater what the sales guy tells you.

[Anonymous No.1693927]

>>1693921
Churches always have money for aesthetics but never want to spend it on shit that matters. Every time we start messing around at a church I wonder what we're doing until I inevitably find out that there's a salesguy/project manager/guy in management that has some connection to someone involved at the church that called in a favor

[Anonymous No.1693930]

>>1693925
Easy, a 50 ton mini split. Na, the walls are insulated, if you have not added insulation in the attic and still have old single pane windows with leaky everything then a 4 ton. if there is r18 insulation in the attic maybe 3.5 ton with leaky everything else.
walls

[Anonymous No.1693931]

>>1693923
The only difference between a 407C condenser and an R22 condenser is the oil which is compatible with either refrigerant but the POE does not mix with the mineral oil. A lot of OEM 22 compressors are now charged with POE and require the oil change anyways.
It's getting less common but a while back when a 22 system might only be 6 years old and blew up a compressor it wasn't a bad option.

And no shit you gotta blow off the nitrogen.

[Anonymous No.1693934]

>>1693930
>the walls are insulated
*The walls are NOT insulated.

[Anonymous No.1693935]

>>1693930
It's leaky as fuck. Single pane windows still and there's some old insulation in the attic. So a 4 ton system then?

[Anonymous No.1693936]

>>1693925
It really depends a lot on any insulation and window/door updates. I would think a 2.5 ton would be the minimum if well insulated up to 4 ton if poorly insulated. If you don't already have central heat/air then it's probably cheapest to look into one of the multi fan coil single condenser systems from Mitsubishi or Daikin

[Anonymous No.1693937]

>>1693927
This church had no money for anything. That is why they ended up renting out all the space.

[Anonymous No.1693939]

>>1693936
I already have central. The windows are single pane, and I don't think there's any wall insulation.

[Anonymous No.1693945]

>>1693939
If you're in doubt you can find a free manual J calculator online and fill it out. It will ask you questions about insulation materials, room size, size and number of windows, and attic insulation among other things.

[Anonymous No.1693949]

>>1693931
Boy, did you get your HVAC schooling from hardknocks? Any time you cut into or replace a system it must be vacuumed down to 400 to 500 microns. At 400 bucks for 30 lb of r-22 it is not a cost saving to use it. You are using some R-22 substitute crap that part of the name is R-22. R-MO99 is compatible with poe oil and is a lot cheaper then R-22 with no oil change. You need to go to sum of them HVAC classes and not depend on the old farts teechen yu

[Anonymous No.1693954]

>>1693945
What I have from manual J is to add a ton of air at the end. We want a 20 degree drop from outside ambient at the very least and not more then 20 degrees so at a 100 F and 60% humidity outside we want 80 degrees inside. Add more tonnage then that and inside humidity goes to hell. Add less tonnage and the inside temp is way too hot. ASHRE claims the Manual J is Gods word. I know from experience it is not. 20 degrees is my word of God.

[Anonymous No.1693957]

>>1693939
Simple answer. What tonnage is it you have?
When you have clean filters and a properly serviced unit what temperature do you have inside at a hundred degrees outside. That can tell you what tonnage will work best.

[Anonymous No.1693961]

>>1693957
I'll double check in the morning, but I feel that it's underpowered. When it's roughly 95 outside I can get it to 75 maybe a little cooler if it's running all day. I guess that falls within your guideline, but I'll be damned if I don't want better.

[Anonymous No.1693972]

>>1693949
I'm well aware of the vacuum requirements on systems. I wasn't writing a full step by step guide on replacement, I also didn't mention refrigerant recovery and tracking. Are you going to try and be clever and point that out next? How about that I didn't say to turn the power off to the equipment first?

I don't touch drop in refrigerants for several reasons. I'm not sure what point your trying to make pointing out that MO99 is compatible with POE when 22 is as well, the reason for the oil change has nothing to do with refrigerant compatibility it's because the old system used mineral and the new uses POE. Same process as if you absolutely have to reuse a lineset on a 22 to 410A swap. This is a situation that I run across maybe once a year, it's more common that the new OEM compressor for a 22 system now comes with POE and requires a system cleanup. And at $400 for a 30 pound cylinder R22 is more affordable now than it has been in years. I also only said that it can be done not that I endorse it, I even said that it was retarded.

[Anonymous No.1693978]

>>1693972
You can mix POE and mineral oil.
As long as you have like 80% of POE, R410A and R134A will work fine for years.

[Anonymous No.1694017]

>>1693978
Can confirm. Was shocked when I found out.

[Anonymous No.1694057]

>using mo99 over 422b

[Anonymous No.1694082]

>>1693923
vac the nitrogen lol. you sound like a customer with too much time on there hands.

[Anonymous No.1694143]

>>1693978
The manufacturers of R407c recommend a 10% limit.
When I replace an R22 condenser and reuse the lineset and evaporator, I just flush them with R11 or a similar system flush and connect the new condenser unit with a new filter/drier.

[Anonymous No.1694145]

>>1693978
The manufacturers of R407c recommend a 10% limit of mineral oil.
When I replace an R22 condenser and reuse the lineset and evaporator, I just flush them with R11 or a similar system flush and connect the new condenser unit with a new filter/drier.

[Anonymous No.1694171]

>>1694145
They recommend because they don't want to be responsible for compressor damage, sludge, etc.
In case of R410a you replace 99% of oil anyway, because pressures are different. But in case of R12 fridges, it is near impossible to replace all oil.
In case of dodgy repair (which includes insufficient vacuum, brazing without nitrogen), it works.

[Anonymous No.1694433]

>>1694057
>not using propane

[Anonymous No.1694445]

>>1693931
That sounds like way more trouble than it’s worth to your company. Quite possibly the dumbest thing I’ve ever heard. It should cost more in labor doing it this way. And the only reason your customers choose this option is because you GAVE them this option. Absolutely fucking trash, baby.

[Anonymous No.1694480]

>>1694445
I swear you guys just skim posts and look for something random to try to insult a stranger on the internet. The first thing every customer asks is if they need to change the whole system or just the compressor/condenser. In the case of large RTUs a whole unit replacement is over $80k but we can throw the OEM replacement compressor charged with POE in for $10k. The times we do the whole 407C condenser to 22 swap is when they just need a few more years until a remodel. It also happens at non profits and charities since we tend to do them a lot of favors. I said in the original post it's retarded and in another post I reiterated that it's retarded, however there are times where you just need to put a bandaid on. The company I work for doesn't do residential and a lot of the commercial/industrial buildings have remodel schedules 10 or even 15 years out so when they're doing a 15 million dollar remodel in 3 years they'd rather just kick the can down the road to the remodel budget and pay as little out of the maintenance budget as possible.

>It should cost more in labor doing it this way
It's significantly less labor to change a condenser and flush the system than to run a new lineset and change an evap while changing a condenser. I'm talking damn near half the cost off.

[Anonymous No.1694487]

>>1693426
Service it, keep it running till compressor dies and replace entire system. >>1693720 this guy gets it.
I taught myself to service these things after a unit konked out on memorial day. There's nothing to them, a relay, a couple capacitors, fan, are the main failing parts. If your compressor is noisy check the capacitors to see if they're at spec, otherwise just run it. Replacements are $10 or so... also check relay and if they used an open air relay replace it with a sealed one... the cheap shot they do on these is unreal, I had a dead bug in one cause unit to stop working... srsly why.

[Anonymous No.1694520]

>>1694487
>I had a dead bug in one cause unit to stop working
Fire ants are the worst. They seem to be drawn to the magnetic field of the contactor.
If they're crawling around on the contacts when the contactor energizes, they get squashed and become an insulator.
The first couple of times it happened, I blew sevin dust in all the other units (~40 condensers)
This has worked quite well for me.
If I replace a contactor I do use the sealed ones.

[Anonymous No.1694556]

>>1693720
>>1694487
>Service it, keep it running till compressor dies and replace entire system.
That's definitely the plan.

Already replaced the compressor's start capacitor and fan motor's run capacitor since they were both out of spec, $12 for both. The fan was $60, and I consider that perfectly reasonable if only to keep it alive until I sell the place.

It's definitely using an open-air contactor, and given the number of spiders in the general vicinity it does seem like a good idea to have this enclosed.

[Anonymous No.1694697]

>>1694556
It's amazing how many service calls I run because something's crawled into a contactor or a chunk of it's nest fell into one. A $10 part usually ends up costing just shy of $300 on a service call after truck charge, parts, and labor. Open contact points are criminal, the way to do it is removable covers for inspection.

[Anonymous No.1694806]

>>1694433
>watching the fast food works shit themselves when i tell them their propane units leaked out
But really, fuck BevAir for making an easy repair more complicated.

[Anonymous No.1694810]

>>1692438
fin g er

[Anonymous No.1694844]

>>1694810
What are you implying, brutha'?