Cutting Oil or Cutting Paste?

[Anonymous No.1635650]

Hi guys, quick question.

Cutting oil or cutting paste? Does it matter? Do they do the same thing?

I'm trying to re-tap a thread on my steel frame bike (derailleur hanger). Just with a hand-driven tap wrench. As you can see, the paste is half the price, and it's got good reviews. Every video I watch mentions oil, but do you reckon this paste would do the job?

[Anonymous No.1635653]

>>1635650
I haven't cut metal, but from what I've heard about metal, and issues regarding heat and friction while cutting, I'd go with the oil, since it will flow better.

[Anonymous No.1635657]

>>1635650
neither my friend. just get some wd40 or knock er loose or even the little bottles of lube office depot sells for paper shredders. youre cutting threads by hand on crap steel. this isnt some high speed industrial job, you just need some go go juice to eliminate friction and youre good. just dont forget the classic 1 turn back for every 3 turns forward.

[Anonymous No.1635669]

>>1635653
I'll be tapping by hand so heat shouldn't be an issue.

>>1635657
You might be right, Sheldon Brown seems to say that any oil will do for hand tapping steel. Googling it though, some people are saying WD 40 might not be great because it's not a great lubricant apparently. Maybe I should just buy that cutting paste because it's only £4.50? ($5.67 USD)

[Anonymous No.1635677]

>>1635650
For one hole, by hand, that's already tapped? Just use whatever you have on hand, whether it's motor oil, 3in1 oil, WD40, or even cooking oil would be fine. There is no need to buy anything here.

[Anonymous No.1635680]

>>1635669
Go for it. Keep us updated. Post pics as you progress so we can all laugh at you if you fuck it up.

[Anonymous No.1635684]

>>1635677
You reckon?

>>1635680
Mate I'm just asking a fucking question. If you think WD40 is fine then fair enough. I just don't wanna fuck it up because I haven't tapped a thread before.

[Anonymous No.1635729]

>>1635684
It's just bantz, m8. If it were me I'd go for the paste. Seems about the cost of wd40 but better suited to the task at hand. Plus if you wanna tap other shit you'll already have supplies.

[Anonymous No.1635733]

any, i like using cheap motor oil (5w30 or the like)

[Anonymous No.1635902]

>>1635729
>>1635733
Got my tap and wrench today, might just use WD40 then since people have mentioned it, or I could order that paste but it won't come until tomorrow. So if people think WD40 will be fine I'll give that go. Unless there's anyone else on here who thinks WD40 is definitely a bad idea and I should be using something else.

[Anonymous No.1635941]

>>1635902
Fukkit, use the wd40 and if it turns to shit then get the paste and tap for a larger thread. Still take pics though.

[Anonymous No.1636062]

>>1635650

There's a stupid questions general, you know. And, my god, this board gets stupider by the day

>I haven't cut metal
>but I'm going to offer advice about cutting metal

Just don't fucking reply, maybe?


It doesn't matter much either way, but, if you're re-tapping an existing hole, in steel, to a larger thread size (I'm assuming you were smart enough to drill it out to the proper size first), try for something thicker, like motor oil. Most any oil, including the aforementioned vegetable oil, will work okay. WD40 is not ideal, it's too thin to lubricate well with the kind of pressures seen when tapping. It's still better than nothing and, DESU, I'd still resort to that over ordering an entire thing of lube just for one hole.

If you're just cleaning out an existing thread, it matters even less, and I'd grab whatever was nearest, assuming I wasn't being so lazy I didn't use any at all.

What matters far more here is technique. Critically, avoid levering the tap wrench up and down, instead striving only to provide torque to the tap. Make sure it gets started straight, using a drill press (not with power; leave it off and and twist the pulley by hand) helps a lot with this. Back off a quarter to a half turn or so when you feel the tap start to bind due to chips building up. Back all the way out after you're partway through and clear the chips off the tap if it's a deep hole.

[Anonymous No.1636065]

>>1636062
WD40

[Anonymous No.1636110]

>>1635650
>Every video I watch mentions oil, but do you reckon this paste would do the job?

Tapping needs a good tapping or cutting fluid. Tapping and cutting fluid are made to cool and to evacuate chips.
They are NOT made to reduce friction, using a motor oil is WRONG and itll make your tapped holes worse.

Think about it, an oil made to buffer and reduce friction between 2 metal contact areas vs a cutting fluid actually moves chips so it shears well. Motor oil is stick and holds chips in place instead of freeing your flutes.

WD-40 is mediocre, and is only really recommended for aluminum tapping and cutting.
Buy the cutting oil, keep it well covered and youll be fine.

[Anonymous No.1636117]

>>1636110
OPs only doing a tiny repair job ,
Use WD40 OP

[Anonymous No.1636128]

>>1636117
And he will be redoing his "tiny repair job" if he gets jagged choppy threads that fail.
Having cutting fluid laying around is not a bad thing anyways.

[Anonymous No.1636138]

>>1635650
You can use either, but the oil is better for clearing chips when drilling. Paste or bar wax are generally preferred for band saw blades.

[Anonymous No.1636142]

>>1636110
Cutting oil is literally just motor oil without detergents

[Anonymous No.1636144]

>>1636128
> jagged choppy threads that fail

Never blame tools anon ok.

[Anonymous No.1636153]

>>1636142
Yeah, its an oil with additives for chip evacuation instead of additives to buffer and prevent metal to metal contact. Just like I said.
Just because they are tangentially related, doesnt mean they work in the same way at all.

>>1636144
I didnt blame his tool, im telling him the proper way to use his tool.
What if he ran it dry?

[Anonymous No.1636155]

>>1636110
Did you even read the OP? He's not "tapping" here, he's cleaning up existing threads. He could literally use spit to do this job, and you want him to set up in a drill press?

[Anonymous No.1636160]

>>1636155
>and you want him to set up in a drill press?

Drill presses are not suited to power tapping anon, I would never suggest such a stupid thing.

>He could literally use spit to do this job

He could do all sorts of wrong things and it would still kind of work.
There is nothing wrong with letting OP know what the absolute correct thing to do is.
There are more than enough retards in here already telling him how to nigger rig it.

[Anonymous No.1636169]

>>1635941
>>1636062
>>1636110
>>1636117
>>1636128
>>1636138
>>1636142
>>1636144
>>1636153
>>1636155
>>1636160
Yeah I used WD40 in the end. It worked, although I was really hesitant with doing it, and even though I was being as careful as possible I was sure I was ruining the thread. But it worked and I got my rear derailleur screwed on again, when before it just wouldn't screw on at all. Very chuffed. Thank God I don't have to get a specialist mechanic or get it welded or drill it out for a dropout saver or whatever the fuck. Thanks for the advice in this thread man. Pic is the rear derailleur reinstalled.

>If you're just cleaning out an existing thread
Yeah that's what I was doing. It's for a bike rear derailleur hanger. I saw a video (and some posts) on the internet saying that if you used the same size tap then it might help clear up the thread. I think I stripped it a little bit when I tried reinstalling my derailleur recently and it just wouldn't screw in. But I fixed it now with the right size tap, just screwing it in a little bit, and it must have cleaned up the thread. I just used WD40 since people on here (and Sheldon Brown, the God of bike maintenance) said that any oil will do for steel when tapping by hand.

Also I did order that paste pictured in the OP anyway because it's not that expensive, but it's coming tomorrow and I thought I'd just try it today with WD40 and it worked. Maybe I'll use the paste on future jobs.

Thanks for the advice anyway lads. Very glad I fixed this so easily. Now I just need to install my new chain and install the gear cable to the derailleur too...

[Anonymous No.1636172]

>>1636160
You sell Cutting Oil Right ?

[Anonymous No.1636184]

Also pic related was the tap and tap wrench I ordered. They worked great. I thought the tap wrench was a bit weird because it doesn't have the 90 degree angle on both halves which grip the tap itself - it only has the 90 degree angle on one side. The other side is just flat and presses on the tap to grip it. Bit weird, but it works, and it's a hefty thing, and reviews on Amazon say it's much better quality than other ones of the same price, so yeah, it all worked out well.

[Anonymous No.1636195]

>>1636172
Nope, dont sell it for a career. I use it for a career.

[Anonymous No.1636197]

>>1636160
Well shit, my apologies, that post was meant for >>1636062. But I'll stand by what I said, he's not tapping, he's cleaning up old threads, and probably swaging instead of shearing. So lubrication is exactly what he needs.

[Anonymous No.1636203]

>>1636197
Lol. Try using motor oil with forming taps and they will break.
If you own a tap set, spend the 5 dollars and get a bottle of tap magic.
The difference in performance is tangible.

The vast majority of standard oils are not ideal for tapping (or cleaning up threads) period. And ill leave it at that.

[Anonymous No.1636213]

>>1636169
For future reference the majority of the time it is just filth compacted in the threads causing the issue on hangers or the very start of the thread is damaged. For filth compacted in you will know because there will be a good amount of resistance when unscrewing it, tap works well to clean the threads, a dental pick or some sharpened bent wire will also work if a tap is not handy. If it is the first thread that is damaged running a screw through from the back side will often solve it, but tap is better, best to run it through the back side as well, that way you are starting on clean threads and are assured the tap is registered into the old threads.

Good job op. Make sure to put grease on all your screws before install! Also a good ideal to install greased screws into the unused holes so you do not discover they are rusted out once you need them, threads hold water well.

[Anonymous No.1636234]

>>1636213
Yeah I think it probably was just the first thread that was a bit fucked, or yeah maybe it was filth but I did try cleaning out the hole with tissue paper repeatedly (maybe that's the wrong thing to use but I tried it anyway) and the derailleur still wouldn't screw in. Until I tried the tap method today.

>grease
Yeah I put grease on the derailleur bolt before screwing it in, that's what my dad always told me to do. I still use lithium grease which is just a spare pot that he gave me a couple years ago. Does it matter what kind of grease? I'm guessing not? My supply is running low so I do need to get some soon and it looks like normal grease, the brown stuff, is the cheapest.

[Anonymous No.1636235]

>>1636213
Also
>Also a good ideal to install greased screws into the unused holes so you do not discover they are rusted out once you need them, threads hold water well.
Ah, I'll bear that in mind for the future. This bike has been a single speed for the last few years (I took the derailleurs off it and shortened the chain when I lived in London, perhaps partly because single speeds are the trendy thing in London, and also I just thought it would be lower maintenance and less likely to get damaged if it's just a simpler single speed setup, and I didn't need gears anyway). So there was nothing in that derailleur hanger. So okay, in the future I will grease that hole, thanks for the heads up. If I ever take off the derailleur again, that is. I now live in a hilly area so that's why I'm putting gears back on. It's literally fucking impossible to cycle around here with a single speed - well, I have done it, but it's just so inefficient and fucking annoying.

[Anonymous No.1636486]

>>1636234
>Does it matter what kind of grease?
Not really, you can use lard if you want, it is just some to help keep water out, the one time you may want to consider something special is when mixing metals, steel bolt in aluminum part and the like, anti seizing compounds are advisable here, they help deter dissimilar metals from fusing together. I learned today that grease is not always enough in this situation, took me over an hour to get one break caliper off the bike and taken apart, two bolts fused solid into the aluminum.

>>1636235
Safe bet all that time with an empty hole caused your problems, rust and filth in the threads likely kept the bolt from getting enough purchase and that first thread took the damage. Generally a wire brush stuck in the hole and twisted about is enough to clean the threads, but sometimes a tap is the only way. Remember a greased bolt in every hole whether you are using it or not, most espescially any hole in the tubeing, water in the tubes is bad news for a steel frame.

[Anonymous No.1636503]

>>1636203
>Lol. Try using motor oil with forming taps and they will break.

No they won't.

>The vast majority of standard oils are not ideal for tapping (or cleaning up threads) period. And ill leave it at that.

I've got 15+ years experience in the metal industry and i've cut and formed tens of thousands of threads in just about any material you can think of.

There isn't any single product i would recommend over another for cutting threads since literally every oil i've ever used to lubricate a tap has worked far better than the typical water based emulgated cutting fluid in CNC machines which is still good enough to get the job done.

Just wouldn't recommend WD40, isn't really an oil for lubrication purposes.

>>1636234
>I put grease on the derailleur bolt before screwing it in, that's what my dad always told me to do. I still use lithium grease which is just a spare pot that he gave me a couple years ago. Does it matter what kind of grease? I'm guessing not? My supply is running low so I do need to get some soon and it looks like normal grease, the brown stuff, is the cheapest.

Grease either squeezes out or washes out over time, and the thread will seize up. It's good for a couple months but after a couple of years, the thread will seize up. Get some specialized anti-seize product, they work way better

For general greasing purposes i keep a cartridge of ball bearing grease around. Stuff is like 5 bucks and works well for just about everything that needs grease. The pot your dad gave you is probably a very similar lithium based grease.

[Anonymous No.1636765]

>>1636503
>It's good for a couple months but after a couple of years
Bike does not need to get a couple years, a year of regular riding tops before most everything needs to be pulled apart for bearings, pads, spokes, etc, grease is more than adequate for most bike threads with the exception of screwing into alloy when no steel bushing is installed for the threads. When it comes down to it, time has little to do with the grease squeezing out, it is the stresses of use and the elements that cause that, you can generally reduce it to mileage but not time, a bike properly stored away will keep its grease perfectly for decades. If you have ridden enough to cause the grease to squeeze out of the threads your bearings are going to be dry as well. Grease has done the job for a century without issue on bikes and it will continue to do so.

[Anonymous No.1636890]

>>1635650
Do I need this when cutting with a hacksaw? I need to make a D shaft out of a mild steel rod tomorrow.

[Anonymous No.1636909]

I can't even link all the tards in this post. Vegetable or Olive oil would have been fine options as well. You're all overthinking this.

[Anonymous No.1636932]

>>1636890
No, generally hack saws and oil are a bad combination and asking for injury. a good blade willof the proper tooth will clear chips just fine on its own and heat build up is not really an issue with muscle power.

[Anonymous No.1636945]

>>1636932
>l are a bad combination and asking for injury.

how, seymore

[Anonymous No.1636978]

>>1636932
Ok thanks.

[Anonymous No.1637042]

>>1635657
This. Anything will work for hand tapping. Motor oil? Cooking oil? Gun oil? 3in1? WD? You need something, but virtually anything slippery would work for hand tapping. You really only need dedicated cutting fluid for power tapping or extremely large hand tapping.

[Anonymous No.1637071]

>>1636203
>using forming taps by hand
>chasing anything with a form tap unless you know for sure it was formed to start with
What the actual fuck is wrong with you? Also no they won't and you obviously don't know how one works if you think you need fluids designed for anything but lubrication.

[Anonymous No.1637091]

>>1636932
>No, generally hack saws and oil are a bad combination and asking for injury.

What the fuck are you even on about? Lubricating a hacksaw blade is fine, and makes a huge difference in ease of cut in gummy materials like aluminum. Also helps in plastics that tend to melt and stick to the blade otherwise (PVC comes to mind).

[Anonymous No.1637118]

>>1637091
>What the fuck are you even on about?
Everything about your post says you buy the cheap hardware store blades and use them for everything. You also have poor reading comprehension, I said GENERALLY not NEVER USE LUBE. I also said if you are using a good blade with a proper tooth pattern for the material you are cutting it will clear chips just fine, even in aluminum without lube. If you are getting your blade clogged up when cutting the softer metals it means you are either using a blade with too small of teeth or just forcing a dull cheap blade through with muscle power. All you do when you add lube is keep the chips from getting impacted, which would not be an issue if you used the correct blade for the job.

The general rule of thumb is 3 teeth to for the thickness of the cut, not thickness of the material. So if you are cutting 1/4" plate and running the blade perpendicular to the material you want a blade with 12 teeth per inch, if you are cutting it with the blade at a 45 degree angle to plate you cut thickness is now closer to 3/8" and will want to step up too a blade with 7 or 8 teeth per inch to maintain proper chip clearance. Lube just reduces the ability of the tooth to cut in by decreasing its friction and increases the chances of the blade to slip, bind and jump and risks hand/finger/arm damage from when the blade jumps out and sends your flesh into the far side of the material.

Select the proper blade for the cut, start the cut with a triangular file and if you really need lube do not apply it until the blade is buried in the stock to reduce risk of the blade jumping.

Most hack saw blades suck for most plastics, but they work well for many of the laminates and there are blades designed for plastics that do an all right job, the blades for the wood working frame saws tend to do better in the common plastics.

[piled korn !stuUhkKwfw No.1637119]

a lot of times i just raw dog it no lube because fuck it im not building a space shuttle and if i took the time to perfect every tiny detail i would never accomplish anything and my bosses would hate me even more than they do now

[Anonymous No.1637757]

>>1636110
>Tapping needs a good tapping or cutting fluid. Tapping and cutting fluid are made to cool and to evacuate chips.
>They are NOT made to reduce friction, using a motor oil is WRONG and itll make your tapped holes worse.

Tapping doesn't need anything at all. Especially not cooling. My taps will easily work up to 500°C. I will never reach that even with machine tapping. Cutting oil doesn't really help chip evacuation either unless it's flooding the workpiece. It's not really needed anyway. Either the chips go out at the bottom or top, or the flutes will hold as much chips as you'll get from tapping all the length the tap can do. I mostly use spiral flute taps because i love how the chips come out.

Btw reducing friction is exactly what you want. A tap works buy guiding itself at the right pitch. For doing that there's a lot of surface contact and friction. There's only so much torque a tap can transfer. Every friction from the guiding you can get rid of is now available for the actual cutting action.

I use way oil when tapping. Probably not the best but that's what i always have near by. I'm metalworking since 2 years, tapped thousands of holes and i only broke one tap in my life (M3 which i tapped in crooked while being distracted).

WD40 for steel is probably completely useless but yes for alu you can immediatly see a difference in surface finish while fly cutting.

I would probably buy the paste because it seems easier to exactly spread it where you want it (just dip your tap in it) but as i said i'm lazy and use what is nearby.

[Anonymous No.1638413]

you can use wd40 if thats all you have my dad uses Mistic Metal Mover and says it makes a world of difference.

[Anonymous No.1638670]

>>1637757
try kerosene on aluminum and never look back.

[Anonymous No.1638692]

>>1635650
>Cutting oil or cutting paste?
kerosene