/diy/ - Do It Yourself

How do you stop the neighbors from fucking your chickens?

this is my dream, that I shall fulfill one day.
but not today, and I'm gong to sleep.

>>59967
>"How do you stop the neighbors from fucking your chickens?"
Shotgun.

>>59971
>"this is my dream, that I shall fulfill one day. but not today, and I'm gong to sleep."

Sleep well. Good luck.

ever consider growing drugs? because you can trade it for a lot of food.

Why are you so worried about using chemicals?

>>59977
>"ever consider growing drugs? because you can trade it for a lot of food."

I would grow weed if it weren't illegal. I can't risk something like that. Cops raid a lot out here, and do a lot of constant fly-overs to look for weed.

Doesn't stop me from smoking it though.

>>59982

Well then obviously you should grow weed in the cellar like everybody else, duh.

How about tobacco?

How old are you and how long did it take you to get started?

How much capital do you need?

What's the easiest animal to start with?

>>59981
>"Why are you so worried about using chemicals?"

Tons of reasons. For one, they're harmful for humans. They're also harmful for the environment. Plants and insects are getting more resistant to them and so farmers are having to spray more often in higher doses. Ever wonder why the bees are dying? And the chemicals that wash off from the land go somewhere, normally into a natural water source, sometimes ruining entire ecosystems. I've seen it happen a lot around here with the conventional tobacco and cotton.

Also the chemical companies are irresponsible and bully small farmers. I don't understand how anyone could support Monsanto.

But mainly because they're not necessary. They're just not. They're for lazy people.

>>59983
>"Well then obviously you should grow weed in the cellar like everybody else, duh. How about tobacco?"

Haven't yet...sort of a stigma for tobacco farmers in the sustainable community. Especially around here. They've ruined a lot of land. Totally infertile now.

I don't smoke anyways.

>>59987

Sounds likes bollocks to me. You must be and American?

>>59987

You say you want to grow things "natural", but there's very little that's natural about most of our crops. They were cultivated over many centuries to get them to be as edible as they are; the plants which had desirable qualities were planted, the ones that weren't, got thrown away, discarded, burned, etc.

The banana, for example. A wild banana is nowhere near as appetizing as a domesticated one.

But I think you really just mean chemicals and the uses thereof so that's fine.

How much does it cost to live like this, as far as electric bills, or costs for animal feed goes

>>59987
>>59987
> Plants and insects are getting more resistant to them

>bees are dying

>>59984
>How old are you and how long did it take you to get started?
I'm 26. "Getting started" is a pretty relative term. We'll be growing a bit more. After the initial investment, we were breaking even right away.

>How much capital do you need?
For a system like ours, not considering land, you could get off the ground with $20,000, relatively cheap for farms. Grants and financing are rather easy to come by for agriculture, and we already had a significant starting fund.

>"What's the easiest animal to start with?"
Chickens for sure. They don't require that much space, eggs are incredibly useful and rather easy to sell/trade. Keeping a flock of about 50-100 chickens is a good way to break into the idea of raising livestock.

>>60001
He meant that the plants and insects the poisons are meant for are getting stronger while beneficial animals like bees are dying.

>>60001
>"Plants and insects are getting more resistant to them, bees are dying"

Well I'll spell it out if you really need me to. The insects which are the target of the pesticides are becoming more resistant to them. The pesticides, as they were, were not toxic enough to harm bees. Bees were safe. But since the other insects are becoming more resistant, more chemicals and toxicity are needed to kill them. And now the pesticides are strong enough to kill bees.

>>59998
>How much does it cost to live like this, as far as electric bills, or costs for animal feed goes

I could break things down financially but it would be long and boring. I'm not sure how I would figure out how much it "costs," since farming is basically turning your life into a small business. We make sure that the meat we sell covers feed for the meat animals + a little more, egg money covers egg layer feed + a little more, and that labor spent with the produce is worth the income it brings. Everything left over goes to pay the bills, financing, repairs, etc. After that, most goes to building the farm. After that is spending money. Sometimes nothing, sometimes decent.

>>60020

What's your biggest seller?

>>59996
Well, free of synthetics yes, but beyond that, we use permaculture techniques.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Permaculture

We model systems after nature. Just because a certain plant isn't native, or almost all crops anyone grows are bred to be the way they are, doesn't mean you can't take advantage of natures natural means of taking care of itself.

-Do you grow crops all year round? If so, where do you live?
-Is the produce you grow in one season enough to last for the year? If so, how much land do you own / farm?

>>60023
>"What's your biggest seller?"

As far as consumer demand goes, our eggs for sure. But we don't have near enough hens to support the demand for them so they don't make as much money as the chicken or produce.

This is kind of fascinating, even though I live in the middle of a city

>>60026
>-Do you grow crops all year round? If so, where do you live?
I live in North Central North Carolina. We're able to have produce year-round because we have high-tunnels (like an unheated green house). Stuff goes dormant and doesn't grow from early December to mid January, but if it's grown and in the ground and protected from freeze then you can harvest it and sell it. Stuff starts growing again in February and we're back into decent production in March.

>-Is the produce you grow in one season enough to last for the year? If so, how much land do you own / farm?
Do you mean like, the product last the whole year? Or the revenue last the whole year? Either way, no. Most any produce we don't sell on the weekly basis we donate to local food shelters. Small farms have to be diverse in order to be successful, so just growing produce for one season would not cut it. Conventional farmers, like soy bean farmers, tobacco farmers, wheat, etc., they get by with just one crop a year.

>>60031
>This is kind of fascinating, even though I live in the middle of a city

Do you have a yard?

I live in the Midwest, OP. Do I get enough light from my east-facing windows to have herbs survive all winter or no?

>>60034
>"...you mean like, the product last the whole year... no. Most any produce we don't sell on the weekly basis we donate to local food shelters"

If you grow a crops like, oh, beans and potatoes, you woudln't have enough at the end of the growing season to live off 'til next growing season? (canned beans + potatoes as majority of diet) I know most crops (like lettuce) would rot post-harvest, but still you could survive of the consistantly growing plants during the growing season/pre-harvest.

- What do your animals eat? Grass? Pre-packaged Feed?
- Would your livestock be enough to self-sustain and meet a year's food needs?

how much would the govt give you in exchange for not producing anything?

This is one of our cheap and portable chicken houses. Total cost for this is around $150. The bottom is just a wooden 2x4 frame, and the hope is made by bending cattle panel inside the frame. We then wire chicken wire to the entire things, construct a door frame, add some roosts and nests, put a tarp over it (and some extra insulation in the winter), and it's done.

We use these are part of our rotation system. While land is resting, or if we test some soil to be nutrient deficient, we will move the house over the area. The chickens sleep in it at night and poop like crazy, so they intensively add fertilizer to the soil. We move the houses two times a week.

>>60054
>I live in the Midwest, OP. Do I get enough light from my east-facing windows to have herbs survive all winter or no?

Survive, probably, but I doubt they'd grow at all. It really depends on the specific plant.

>>60057
>how much would the govt give you in exchange for not producing anything?
Nothing.

This is the inside of our DIY walk-in cooler.

We bought a utility shed, cut a hole in the back and framed it to support a window unit cooler. Then we had some spray-insulation guys spray solid 4 inches of insulation around the entire inside.

The air conditioner is wired into a device called a CoolBot. This overrides the AC's lowest temperature and causes it to cool to as low as 32 degrees.

It's cheaper, more energy efficient, and much more practical than a standard walk-in cooler, or having refrigerators for all of our product.

Outside of the walk-in cooler.

The coolbot hooked up to the AC.

>>60077
Whats the total cost on that?

Here are two of the high-tunnels we use for winter produce production. We got the frames from a landscaping company that was liquidating for super cheap. With those, plastic, rope, rebar, and t-posts, the total cost for one of these houses was around $250, with most of those materials being reusable.

nice thread

>>60093
It cameo out to around $8000. The shed and insulation being most of that.

This is a slightly different chicken house design. The biggest difference being the 3" PVC pipe we used for the base frame instead of wood. It's a bit more expensive, about $250, but it's bigger, sturdier and easier to move.

u use Biogas?

>>60116
>u use Biogas?

Don't have a diesel truck or tractor. We use a two-wheel walk-behind tractor for all of our land-work. It's more efficient, much cheaper, and does the job just as well (with a bit more work).

We process our own chickens on the farm. This is called a kill cone. You stick the chicken in head first, pull its head through the other side, and then cut its neck to let it bleed out. In the picture is a stunner don't use. The chicken is dead in about 30 seconds doing this.

>>60120

u can use the biogas for cooking, water heathing and so on, u can storage it.. with the solids u got a perfect 100% bio fertilizer

After they are dead, they are then scalded. This device holds water at a temperature of about 150 degrees. Dunking the chicken in this for about 30 seconds-1 minute loosens the feathers so they can be plucked easier by the plucker.

>>60124
>u can use the biogas for cooking, water heathing and so on, u can storage it.. with the solids u got a perfect 100% bio fertilizer

Didn't think about that. We have a solar water heater. I'll look into other applications of biogas. Thanks.

This is the plucker. It has rubber fingers and a disc at the bottom covered in the fingers that spins around fairly fast while spraying water. About 30 seconds in here and a chicken is plucked clean. It can handle 2 or 3 at a time. This is really what makes on-site processing a possibility.

From the plucker it goes to the evisceration table. This is where it is basically cleaned up and turned into food. We harvest everything that is legal to sell and discard the rest. After it leaves this table it is in market shape. From here it goes into a cooler with ice water to chill.

>>60127

Consider the following too. Very interesting.

http://www(DOT)fao(DOT)org/DOCREP/005/Y1187E/Y1187E00.HTM

This is the final step. After it leaves the chilled water, the chicken sits on these posts for a few minutes to drain and then bagged.

This is allowed under a certain meat handlers exemption. We can process up to 10,000 a year on site. We cannot process anything besides poultry, so we have to send our goats to a sketchy processing facility.

>>60138
Aquaculture is probably the future of food production. If we can harness renewable energy, this is what will be able to feed 7 billion people, healthily, without the use of chemicals or synthetics. Perhaps one day, if I move on from the farm, I will get involved in aquaculture.

Seems like the board's not interested tonight...if someone wants me to keep going just lemme know otherwise I'll let it die.

I'm reading it, it's pretty interesting.

What crops do you grow in winter? Will just regular crops grow or is it special shit?

>>60153
>What crops do you grow in winter? Will just regular crops grow or is it special shit?
They have to be somewhat cold-hardy. Something like tomatoes or peppers would only last till early December in a high tunnel. It's mostly greens...this year I'm doing lettuce, kale, arugula, swiss chard, spinach, kohlrabi, carrots, beets, and radishes. These will all survive in a tunnel through the winter.

This is totally dependent on climate. I'm mid-Atlantic, so you can imagine the difference for up North or further South, or in CA or something.

Here's one example of using natural systems. We release beneficial insect to help take care of pests. Ladybugs are especially good at small soft-bodied pests like aphids. We have a fairly nice ladybug population now so we don't have to release them much any more. Eventually we'll be able to stop completely, as long as we balance the ecosystem right.

These are parasitic wasp eggs. They'll find larva and small worms and lay eggs in them. They help prevent moth worm infestations and help keep flies at bay.

>>60158
I'm in CA and I have a fairly large garden (32 x 16 feet) but it pretty much sits dormant all winter and I just plant in the summer and harvest once a year.

Seems like kind of a waste so I'm considering maybe making one of those tunnel jobbys for it.

>>60016

so won't the bees eventually become immune too

>>60163
where did you get those wasps? there's a fuckload of flies here from the horse shit and maybe those'll help.

Except maybe they'll sting the horses I guess.

Another example of taking advantage of nature. This broccoli grows in the spring but goes to flower (bolts) in the summer. Since a lot of the summer crops need pollination, we leave them in to attract bees and other pollinators. Conventional farmers would tear them out and plant something else. We allow it to work for us. We also do this with other cole crops and most anything that bolts in the summer.

>>60164
I don't know if a tunnel would help. Normally when stuff goes dormant it's mainly because of a lack of sunlight rather than temperature. Temperature can be a factor though so it might help extend your season, but you might end up with a dormant period anyways. The main purpose for them in this climate is to protect the plants from freezes.

>>60169
well, it goes dormant because i harvest everything and pull up all the plants. It's just bare earth sitting there right now.

>>60165
>so won't the bees eventually become immune too

Maybe...but before or after a famine sweeps the planet because we lost our main pollinators and food becomes scarce? And as the keep increasing toxicity and concentration, there will no doubt be definite and noticeable health problems with people.

>>60166
They're not stinging wasps. They're incredibly small. You'll hardly see them. There are some better bugs specifically for flies though. We get our insects from a local garden center. Check here:


http://www(dot)bugladyconsulting(dot)com/Suppliers%20of%20beneficial%20insects.htm

>>60175
well, it goes dormant because i harvest everything and pull up all the plants. It's just bare earth sitting there right now.

What's the lowest temperatures you get in the winter? You may not even need a tunnel. Like I said, around here the main purpose of the tunnel is to protect from freeze. Sunlight (lack of) is what normally stunts winter growth.

Any recommendations for organic 'pesticides'--some way to keep bugs off fruit trees?
We have 4 apple trees but we lost the entire god damn lot to spiders and worms before they were ripe. And I'd prefer not to use too much chemicals. Thanks in advance

>>60187
It can drop below freezing at night, just barely though. I mean I'm talking a dusting of frost on the ground in the morning but that's about it.

>>60190
>Any recommendations for organic 'pesticides'--some way to keep bugs off fruit trees?

Fruit is really hard to grow without synthetic pesticides. You have to have the perfect climate and environment free of pests and disease to grow fruit organically. For small-scale fruit production, I don't really frown on using synthetic pesticides. However, I understand your hesitation.

Look into Spinosad, DF, or Pyganic. These are organic approved pesticides. I'm not sure if they're much better for the environment than synthetic pesticides though.

>>60191
>It can drop below freezing at night, just barely though. I mean I'm talking a dusting of frost on the ground in the morning but that's about it.

Most greens can tolerate that. Peppers and tomatoes would probably die. Stuff like kale would actually taste better after a light frost. Some lettuces might die but others are winter-hardy. Spinach, carrots, beets, chard...all these will survive a light frost. Instead of a whole tunnel, I suggest looking into row covers or low-tunnels. A row cover will lightly sit on top of your plants and protect them from frost, and low-tunnel will collect enough heat to protect against slightly heavier frosts (28 degrees maybe).

These are a couple of our guinea fowl. They are extremely effective natural pest control. They eat a ton of bugs and will basically prevent any tick problems at all. They're really noisy though.

>>60198
noisy at night? or during the day?

Do you eat those fuckers or keep them around all year?

>>60205
>noisy at night? or during the day?
Always during the day, and it's worse in the summer. They'll squawk non-stop for hours. I've had to stop myself from shooting them.

>Do you eat those fuckers or keep them around all year?
We don't eat our's, but there is a market for them. We just have them for pest control. We couldn't catch them if we tried, they're very skittish and can fly very well. Since they don't go into a coop at night, we sometimes lose them to night-time predators.

These are the chickens we raise for meat. They're called Freedom Rangers, and they're bred for systems like our's. A rotating group of 200 of them have access to at least an acre of pasture at any given time. They are plump and juicy and delicious.

This is the walk-behind tractor we have. Attached is the tiller implement. We also have a rotating plow implement for heavier earth work and a flail mower implement for clearing heavy brush.

Alright then, goodnight /diy/.

i'm heading to bed now, but thanks for the info Farmer

where did you learn everything you know? i want to do almost exactly what you do except without animals. how did you get the startup money and how did you learn what you needed? is there anyone who lives/works with you? i'm 19; were you involved in this stuff at my age? if so, how would you go about it differently if you could do it again?

i'm really at a point in my life where i need to know this stuff as i am looking for a job where i can get useful experience, and i need to know if/where to go to school next semester.

Made a Farming_General, but I guess I should eventually put together a Permaculture sub folder as I have plenty on that subject.
http://www.mediafire.com/?b8bd76hl6ii6q

>>60221
good night and thanks for sharing farmer

If the thread is still up tomorrow, maybe you can tell me if you have tried harvesting rice

How many acres of land does it take to sustain you (and how many people are you sustaining?)

What percentage of the food do you sell?

If you had the room would you raise cattle?

Also mind taking us through a typical day?

What are your thoughts on no kill farming?

I grew up on a farm and it always kinda bugged me as a kid that I would raise something, feed it and one day go out and shoot it in the head.

Can you make enough money off of just eggs and goat milk to support them throughout their whole life?

I am getting into urban farming myself and am looking to eventually expand into the countryside. I find there are tons and tons of foodstuffs that are thrown away every day that can be digested by animals and turned into both food and fertilizer. It seems that the fertilizer is often overlooked as a valuable commodity as well. And I wonder if you are using thrown away food to feed the animals wouldn't you actually make MORE money by letting the animal live out its life if you made money off the fertilizer?

For instance I have been running a worm farm for about a year and the waste leechate from the bins sells for up to forty bucks a gallon for fertilizer. The composted waste/worm castings are valuable as well.

>>60401
"no kill farming"
fucking retard, what do you think happens to wheat when you harvest it, you grind up the seeds LIVE SEEDS, and then you have flour. LIFE = DEATH get used to it.

This is an interesting thread. Let's keep it bumped until Farmer A gets up again.

>>60401
you realize that to get milk you have to keep the animal continuously pregnant, right? what are you gonna do with all those delicious baby animals, if not eat them?

>>60436
>you realize that to get milk you have to keep the animal continuously pregnant, right?
They'll give milk as long as you keep milking them. "no kill farming" is pretty retarded though.

>>60436
No correct in the slightest.

Are your hens free-range? If so, how do you keep predators such as coyotes at bay?

Dear Farmer A,

Plox keep the info coming, I love it! im a city boy with the option to be on a farm later on...

Monitoring this

I'll be in and out of this thread today so feel free to ask questions and I'll get around to it.

>>60267
>How many acres of land does it take to sustain you (and how many people are you sustaining?)
There's a difference between "self-sustaining" farm and "sustainable farming." Self-sustaining would be a closed system which could survive with no inputs. This is very difficult and requires a decent amount of land, knowledge, and hard work. There are some systems like this but they are not necessary, as community exists for a reason.

Sustainable farming is rather simply taking as many steps possible to reduce environmental impact. We get our feed and supplies almost all locally, we produce as much compost as we can ourselves, and we take great care to rotate animals and crops to not harm the land. On top of that, we reuse and recycle as many supplies as we can. We don't sell our products further than 50 miles from the farm, reducing travel time and keeping it local. We're improving our systems continuously.

We have 30 acres which is perfect for our size and scale of a system.

>What percentage of the food do you sell?
Most. Three people live here, and we don't eat that much compared to what we produce. We will often trade food for food or other goods as well.

>>60274
>If you had the room would you raise cattle?
Probably not. Raising cattle sustainably is rather intensive and time-consuming. I don't care much for them and I don't like beef at all. Goats are incredibly and naturally sustainable, their meat is much much healthier than beef, and they basically take care of themselves. Nothing against the sustainable beef industry...just not for me.

>Also mind taking us through a typical day?
Every day is different but it would go something like this.
-Wake up at sunrise.
-Let chickens out, feed chickens, feed goats, make sure everything has water.
-Breakfast.
-Spend all morning with crops, cultivating or transplanting, searching for pests or whatever.
-Lunch.
-Take a walk to look at all the animals to make sure they're healthy.
-Move chicken houses.
-Feed chickens.
-Collect eggs.
-Water.
-Sundown.
-Wash eggs, do logistical and administrative work.

These are things done on a daily basis, so there is always more to do than that depending on what we have going on. Thursdays we process chickens, Fridays we harvest crops, Saturdays we do farmers' markets...it's a lifestyle, not a job.

>>60401
>What are your thoughts on no kill farming?
Whatever floats your boat. Someday I'll probably move away from meat production. I have nothing against vegetarians and vegans. It's a choice that I respect. However, I do feel that if someone eats meat but is unwilling to kill their own food, it is slightly hypocritical.

>Can you make enough money off of just eggs and goat milk to support them throughout their whole life?
Eggs are not the best for revenue. They sell well and bring people in but they don't provide the best income. They're not terrible but they're not reliable for money. Milk is almost impossible for small farms to sell for human consumption because of FDA regulations. There's no way I could even think about doing goat milk unless regulations change. Unless you are already in the dairy business/have a huge sum of start-up money, dairy is not a good sector of agriculture to try to start in. Thank the FDA for squishing small farmers and supporting large corporate agriculture.

I do know some who only sell produce. It's possible but not very lucrative for a long time. Eggs and produce together might be decent after a few years (10 probably) of establishing a customer base and expanding production.

>And I wonder if you are using thrown away food to feed the animals wouldn't you actually make MORE money by letting the animal live out its life if you made money off the fertilizer?
Considering we use 100% of the fertilizer our animals produce, there's not much money to be made.

Either way, you're going to reach a limit of how many animals you can hold. Killing some to sell and replacing them with new ones creates a huge income stream and is a much more efficient way for producing food. You'd get the same amount of fertilizer if you didn't kill them as if you did, because you replace every animal you kill (ideally).

Fertilizer isn't that easy to sell, either. Lots of livestock farmers willing to just give away manure.

>>60436
>>60442
>>60464
>Milk.

You do have to keep an animal producing babies to have continuous milk production. I don't know about cows, but as far as goats go, dairy goats have to have a kid every year and they will produce milk year round. Compared to our meat goats, which produce milk for just a few months until their kid is fully grown. They will not just produce milk if you keep milking them. If this were true, babies in nature would never be weened from their mothers.

There is also killing in egg production. A chicken can live up to 10 years, but is only a productive layer for 2. Your profits would be squashed feeding that chicken for 8 extra years with no production. After 2 years, we process them and sell them as stewing hens.

>>60474
>Are your hens free-range? If so, how do you keep predators such as coyotes at bay?
"Free-range" would be accurate but the requirements for "free-range" are pretty lacking to carry that label. Our chickens are completely free out on pasture with no restraints. The only day-time predators we have problems with are eagles or hawks. There is a large crow population surrounding our land which chase away any raptor which flies near. In the last year we've only lost 1 chicken to an eagle.

At night, the chickens put themselves away in their coops. We close the doors, and they're safe. If we didn't close the doors, they would almost certainly be killed in one night. Possums will kill every chicken in a coop. Raccoons and skunks will also do some damage. Weasels, foxes, coyotes, bobcats...we have them all, but they're all night-time predators and our houses do very well to protect the chickens.

farmer A you're the best trip on the best board.

you inspire me and thanks to diy I think my life plan has been considerably altered.

i'm a techie and so is my fiance, we discussed having a family but i was always worried about bringing kids into the world, both of us having to work long hours and raising our kids right and having a good family life. i didn't want to be a stay at home mom* because I'd feel like a mooch.

Now that I've learned about aquaponics, home management and all the other diy threads we've had, i'm understanding how i could stay home and improve our family life by reducing our commercial consumership and teaching our future children useful skills, how to care for themselves, and to understand the world around them.

I know it sounds super hippy to want to grow food, have some chickens and goats and homeschool my children but to me it just sounds like the perfect existence.

*I've discussed it with my fiance and if he wanted to be the stay at home parent I would be fine with being the working parent but he is way smarter than me and could probably make more money than I could.

I don't really have a question but I'd like to know if you think it's possible to produce the majority of foods you need for your family in a smaller scale version of what you do, and also how much you find yourself having to go to the store to get. Obviously I wouldn't be growing wheat or anything like that.

Thanks Farmer A

>>60835
I'm not him, but I read that it requires a minimum of 645 square feet of garden to be self sustaining for 2 people.

Take that as you will.

>>60835
>I don't really have a question but I'd like to know if you think it's possible to produce the majority of foods you need for your family in a smaller scale version of what you do, and also how much you find yourself having to go to the store to get. Obviously I wouldn't be growing wheat or anything like that.

I'd say it's definitely possible considering climate. If you're looking into aquaponics, it would be even more possible. One of the things I do is section off yard-size spaces to find out the most efficient way to produce food in the back yard for someone. Many plants are very prolific and offer great harvests on a weekly basis. Chickens are easy to take care of and help fertilize soil, not to mention eggs are one of the most nutrient-packed things you can eat. I'd say, after a few years of practice and experimenting with different systems, you could easily produce 80% of your family's food in a large size yard. This is also dependent on dietary requirements. Different people require different diets and some can't sustain so easily on their own.

As far as "going to the store," we normally get what food we can't produce for ourselves from our farmers' markets. We either trade or just pay cash. We'll go to the grocery store about once a month for random things.

I would say go for it. It would be such a great way to raise children. Getting them involved in growing food, becoming more self-sustaining and independent from the system. You could teach them some great values in a lifestyle like that. It makes me really happy to hear about people thinking like this.

>>60842
I'd say that's a pretty decent number. It would really depend on soil fertility, sunlight, climate, pest problems...a very large number of variables. There are also things you can do to make more efficient use of space.

>>60815

Thank you for taking the time to give an intelligent response. We could use more of that here.

I am not a vegan or a bunny hugger. I asked for practical reasons. I live in Alaska and am having trouble justifying raising meat when there is so much wild game here.

Also fresh food here goes for a premium so the math is a little different.

The locally produced food movement is growing and one area I am looking into is being able to market your produce as no kill.

I think you might be overlooking the fertilizer thing though. Or maybe you just live in a high farming density area. One woman I know bags up her goat manure and sells it as it doesn't require composting like other types.

I wasn't being hypocritical as I eat meat as well and am not naive as to where it comes from. I am just trying to learn how to live as healthy a lifestyle as I can.

Thanks and happy farming.

farmer a would you sell me some fertile guinea fowl eggs

Farmer A could you take a look at >>60227 for me?

>>60861
>I think you might be overlooking the fertilizer thing though. Or maybe you just live in a high farming density area. One woman I know bags up her goat manure and sells it as it doesn't require composting like other types.
That's definitely the case. There are about 25 livestock farms in a 30 mile radius around here. We get tons of cow manure for free. Where you are, it would definitely be different. I'd imagine people search far and wide for natural fertilizers. Maybe you could make a business out of it? Goat manure isn't the best fertilizer, though it's decent. Chicken manure is very high quality fertilizer so I would look into that if I were you. It's rather easy to localize too, since they're kept in coops at night. Our goats poop everywhere...it would be impossible to collect it.

>I wasn't being hypocritical as I eat meat as well and am not naive as to where it comes from. I am just trying to learn how to live as healthy a lifestyle as I can.
Sorry, I wasn't trying to call you hypocritical yourself. I was really just stating a random opinion. I've been called a murderer by someone who eats chicken at KFC before. I thought it was pretty funny.

>>60227
>where did you learn everything you know?
I had no formal education in agriculture. I studied independently very diligently for a while. I took some free agriculture classes on iTunes U. I went around to farmers' markets and asked producers about their systems. I volunteered a bit at some local farms to see exactly how it was done. A degree in agriculture would be invaluable, but it's not necessary. Hands-on experience is the best things you can do, and the agriculture program would have to offer plenty of that.

>i want to do almost exactly what you do except without animals.
I said a couple posts ago, this is possible, but very hard. I have a very knowledgeable friend who just grows produce sustainably. He survives, but works constantly for little payoff. It takes a lot of time, work, and knowledge. to build a produce business from the ground up.

>how did you get the startup money and how did you learn what you needed?
The farm land we were able to buy for just as much as I was able to sell my townhome in town for (property value had skyrocketed from when it was purchased...got really lucky). The rest came from things like grants, retirement funds, savings, and financing. I learned what I needed from visiting farms doing something similar to what I wanted to do.

>is there anyone who lives/works with you?
3 people live on the farm, one works full-time elsewhere and part-time on the farm, me and the other work full-time here.

>i'm 19; were you involved in this stuff at my age?
Not at all. I was going to school for anthropology. I wanted to teach at a university.

>if so, how would you go about it differently if you could do it again?
I would study agriculture in school. Networking is as important as knowledge and experience. I'd say I got lucky being able to do this and having it work...most people can't just start farming out of nowhere.

Good luck, I hope you're able to find your highest excitement.

>>60873
>farmer a would you sell me some fertile guinea fowl eggs

If I could find them :p. Our guineas have a pretty wide territory. The clutches I'm able to find I usually hatch myself or give them to my 4H kids.

>>60852
>>60842
Thanks for the responses! Right now we live in the Northeastern US, but we will probably be relocating in the next year though we have no idea where to. My hubby loves raising fish, shrimp and freshwater lobsters so aquaponics makes a lot of sense, and since we're both programmers we should be able to automate a lot of the system, and we plan on integrating tech into our "settled" home as much as possible to make it efficient.

Thanks for the encouragement! I think I'm most excited about owning goats one day, and making goat cheese and goat butter.

Nice thread, OP! :)

I'd like to be self-sufficient someday and you've given me courage to raise chicken!

I have no knowledge about them, though. In my mind, I have them outside during the summer, roaming around my food forest, eating worms and pests and shit. But what would they eat in the winter months? Corn? We have like three months of pretty cold weather, so I imagine I'd have to heat the chicken house, too.

As you've said, being self-sufficient is hard.

Permaculture folder now up, uploading many a file, so check back.
http://www.mediafire.com/?h45iqs448q1tw

>>61015
Thanks!

That Body and Earth Are Not Two essay is so inspirational.

Our meddling intellect
Misshapes the beauteous forms of things: —
We murder to dissect.

Enough of science and of art;
Close up these barren leaves.
Come forth, and bring with you a heart
That watches and receives.
—William Wordsworth

>>60972
In my mind, I have them outside during the summer, roaming around my food forest, eating worms and pests and shit. But what would they eat in the winter months? Corn?
In a self-sufficient system, you would be growing and milling your own feed, which means that you'd have to grow enough grain and soy for a whole year. They require a wide variety of nutrients so you'd have to grow a wide variety of cereal grains and such. If you have the land and the ability to harvest and store it, it becomes a pretty easy thing to do. You would have to feed them more in the winter than the summer.

>We have like three months of pretty cold weather, so I imagine I'd have to heat the chicken house, too.
How cold? The heritage breed chickens are usually very hardy. The only ones that might have a problem are the ones bred for production. Otherwise, having a small enough coop helps them trap body heat and keeps them warm in the winter. If you live in a very cold climate, you could definitely find a way to passively heat the houses. A type of solar water heater could radiate enough heat to keep them through the night.

>As you've said, being self-sufficient is hard.
I personally feel it would be better to exist as a community rather than a self-sufficient system. Maintaining your own system fed by another system, which feeds other system, and so on, would be ideal. Communities like this are completely possible but rarely even thought about in a capitalist society.

>I personally feel it would be better to exist as a community rather than a self-sufficient system. Maintaining your own system fed by another system, which feeds other system, and so on, would be ideal. Communities like this are completely possible but rarely even thought about in a capitalist society.

this is really my ultimate goal :/ i'm trying to convince enough people to do it with me. i could do it myself but let's face it, you'd get pretty lonely out there with only 1 or 2 other people.

>>61050
I agree, galvanizing a community is so much better than trying to do things like a survivalist might. Especially in a suburban market garden situation. It becomes rather shocking to have the next door neighbour buy flat leaved parsley when your own backyard is overrun with it.

>>61050

>I personally feel it would be better to exist as a community rather than a self-sufficient system. Maintaining your own system fed by another system, which feeds other system, and so on, would be ideal. Communities like this are completely possible but rarely even thought about in a capitalist society.

Actually, there are many industries that still work this way, and it's still a purely capitalist situation.

I think most industries with the exception of insurance (and maybe processed foods) is highly dependent on a number of different companies (or systems). For example, a mining company feeding a steel company that feeds a transportation company that transports the products of the mining or steel company, or a tool company that makes steel tools for a mining company (cycle repeats), or an agriculture company that then creates foods, or a wood company that brings in wood (duh) using the tools of the tools company and the transportation of the transportation company. You could also throw a motor company and maybe an electrical systems company somewhere in that mix.

But if you mean a system where people have an obligation (other than their own interests) to serve the other systems, then you are correct, that is rarely (maybe never) considered in a capitalist society.

Appreciate the thread, by the way. I have one question, though:

Do you ever hope to expand to a point where you are no longer doing all the manual labor, in a company that has like 20+ employees? Or beyond that? You seem to be confident in the process of aquaculture; do you ever dream of being the man who can successfully implement that system on a national or global scale?

>>61070
>Actually, there are many industries that still work this way, and it's still a purely capitalist situation.

I would agree, but there is a major difference in a system like this implemented through capitalism. Money becomes the main resource, and it becomes easy for cunning and greedy people to skim resources off the top. Resources are then unfairly distributed.

I wouldn't ever advocate a system where participation is required in a sustaining system. I think people should be allowed to be greedy and cunning. But I don't wish to participate in a system in where the resources that I require or produce benefits somebody disproportionately to the amount of work they put into the system. Money was created to make trade easier, but it also allows for easier exploitation.

>Do you ever hope to expand to a point where you are no longer doing all the manual labor, in a company that has like 20+ employees?
Probably not. We have plenty of help from volunteers from our CSA, interns and apprentices volunteering for the learning and experience. Sometimes if there is some hard manual labor to be done I'll pay someone on a contract basis. At most I think we'll probably expand to a point of 5-10 workers part-time or full-time.

>You seem to be confident in the process of aquaculture; do you ever dream of being the man who can successfully implement that system on a national or global scale?
I have no experience with it, I've only read a lot about it and seen some pretty amazing and interesting stuff. Maybe once we reach an equilibrium here, I would expand into something like that to help explore and implement those systems where they are needed. My personal project right now is learning the best ways for people to grow food in their back yard and encouraging people to become less dependent on Big Agriculture.

If one wanted to get into agriculture, what would you suggest as a good "first plant"? Herbs? A simple vegetable?

Also, do you think it would be reasonable for someone to raise a few chickens for eggs? What would the cost of that be, roughly?

Lastly, thanks, Farmer. I've learned quite a lot.

>>61092
Green beans. Puts nitrates into the soil. Put them fucking everywhere.

>>61092
>If one wanted to get into agriculture, what would you suggest as a good "first plant"? Herbs? A simple vegetable?
I would honestly just try a few different kinds of easy and hardy plants. Kale is one of the easiest, healthiest, and most productive things you could grow. It grows in the spring and fall, you can harvest leaves weekly, it's resistant to cold weather and fairly resistant to warm weather (though it can get bitter if it gets hot). Lettuce is also particularly easy, and if you harvest it right, it will grow back in about a month, so you can continue to harvest it. Different kinds of lettuce to better in different climates and seasons. Tomatoes are a good way to break into caring for a plant. They are easy enough, but they require consistent water and cultivation, a little work, and you have to watch them for pests and disease. They're easy but more involved than the others I mentioned. Also green beans, as anon said, fix nitrogen to soil, so it's good to plant those ahead of most leafy greens.

>Also, do you think it would be reasonable for someone to raise a few chickens for eggs? What would the cost of that be, roughly?
Very reasonable, I know more than a few people with backyard chicken flocks. The cost will probably be proportionate to however much you spend on eggs at the grocery store. You might even make a small profit if you get more eggs than you can eat and sell them. The amount you spend on food will vary on season and quality of the food. If you eat a lot of eggs, it will be well worth the investment, and they're fun to raise too.

Excellent thread, the best I've seen on 4chan in the last 5 years.

I'll save the whole thing and show it to my wife (a very keen gardener/veg grower)
I'm Itching to get much more involved with this.
Thanks.

I want to start a small scale hops farm, but harvesting is very time consuming. I'd either have to find somebody to rent harvesting equipment from, or hire a bunch of migrants to pick hops from ladders all day.

A 5 gal bucket yields about 16 oz of dried hops. Hops currently sell for about $2.00/oz dried to the consumer. Hops are ranked 9th as an agricultural commodity.

Ideal soil pH is about 5 to 7.

They are perennial. They also continuously expand and produce more vines. As they get older, their yield increases, and the vines are heartier. They peak at about 4-5 years old. If you dig into the dirt a little, and nip off an 8" piece of root as thick as your pinky, you can grow a new plant off of this.

I think this is all an excuse for me to own a Farmall Cub though.

Now please dont let this one die fellers

this is the most loving and caring bump ive ever caried out

>>61137
Dat a hops farm or and antenna farm in disguise? Hidden nvis array perhaps?

BTW Good thread Farmer A.

Excellent thread OP, I had something to ask you last night but I can't remember what it is now.

Bumpin with a simple example of a small plot of land worked and ready to be planted. This particular plot is about 45' long 32" wide rows with 3 lines of drip irrigation on each row. We raise the earth for better drainage from the irrigation. Depending on the season, sometimes we don't raise rows or lay down irrigation and just let the rain do the work.

I'll be back here later this afternoon, feel free to ask questions, talk shit, or troll.

Also, you'll notice the roots in the rows in that picture...those are bermuda grass roots and are the bane of my existence. They will spread for 3 or 4 feet underground before they even need to pop up for sunlight. The roots are so tangled and massed that they cause major problems for most plants. They were largely cleaned out of those rows before we planted, and then about 3-4 hours a week is spent just trying to take care of that grass.

Wonderful thread, OP. I live in the Jackson Purchase area of Kentucky (Calloway County, right on the border of Tennessee and Kentucky - literally). My question is, how do you insulate your chickens efficiently?

My own experience: tobacco, soy, corn, apples, pears (all when I was little and my family lived in northern Kentucky at the confluence of the Ohio and Kentucky rivers).

Hello Farmer A,

I live in the Netherlands and the image shows the kind of wheater I have. I have to chance to buy a farm later on, do you think I could live of my land like you do?

>>61768
Keeping your soil covered with straw or something might help you

>>61916
when I went to netherlands I saw a lot of farms so I think you should be good

>organic

Enjoy your low yield and pests.

>>61137
>Hops
I've thought about growing hops before. My brother has the ultimate goal of starting a brewery and would like me to grow organic hops for him. I've started to view agriculture through the lens of efficiency in output of nutrients, so hops are rather useless in that sense. I think it would be a decent venture though.

>Migrant workers
A lot of people view this sort of labor as exploitation. And in some cases, it is. But in reality, these workers are very grateful for the opportunity to come here in certain seasons to work. Opportunities to make that sort of money don't exist where they come from. Some farm owners take advantage of them and treat them similarly to slaves, but some have great relationships and bring in the same workers every year. It can be beneficial for both the farmer and the worker.

>Farmall Cub
We're sticking to our two-wheel tractor to give an example of how farming is possible with a lower budget, but man I'd love a cub.

>>61871
>how do you insulate your chickens efficiently?
In the wintertime, we put a thermal foil material (insulated with small air bubbles) around their coops. This keeps them warm enough to make it through near 0 degree Fahrenheit temperatures at night. We've never lost a chicken due to cold weather.

>>61916
>do you think I could live of my land like you do?
If you used high-tunnels like ours and grew the right sorts of crops, you probably could. You might need to store more in the winter, like potatoes or canned goods (there's not much that can't be canned). What you could grow in the tunnels in winter would be pretty limited too, but possible. Other than that, the rest of the year is amazing growing weather for many crops.

>>61957
>Enjoy your low yield and pests.
You obviously don't know much about organic growing.

>>61957

http://www.thestarphoenix.com/business/Study%20debunks%20myths%20organic%20farms/5462520/story.html

nope.avi

This any good OP? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j1P6_M-VnGo

>>62064
>This any good OP? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j1P6_M-VnGo

That's way beyond good. These kinds of systems are so incredibly inspiration in the sustainable food movement. Someday I hope to be involved in agriculture in the same way this man is. Some how turn the business into a non-profit and help nourish the lower-income communities. What he said about how families cut healthy food out of their budget first to pay bills is depressingly true.

Those systems are also very innovative. Passively heated greenhouses are becoming a reality and with them, the potential for local food in off-seasons recognized. I wonder how the keep birds out of those worms though...

Thanks much for the video. My weekend will be full of stories and workshops focusing on systems like this at the NC Sustainable Ag conference. I'm incredibly excited.

My goal in life is to eventually build a house out of a series of interconnected geodesic domes with soil piled arround the buildings for insulation.

At the center I want to have a courtyard with a greenhouse covering and an aquaponic system set up.

Why doesn't /diy/ get together to buy some small plots of land and make farms in places?

>>62071
no worries, enjoy.

>>62096
I think your speaking for all of us, man. Free chronic for everyone.

Hey Farmer A, I had more of a parctical question. I grew some peppers in my yard last season, and they were plagued by caterpillars. I would go to work and everything was fine, and come home to find nothing but stalks. What's an organic way to deal with these guys outside of picking them off by hand?

One of my chickens died recently. There was some blood on the last egg she laid.

What the fuck happened?

>>62468
he posted earlier about beneficial predatory insects. There's a link to a place that sells specific predators for specific types of pests.

I live in a humble apartment in Northern IL and I really want to grow some kale or cabbage infront of my northfacing screendoor window. Now I'm thinking I could start with greenbeans but I worry that this winter weather and the lowlight I'm thinking I may just make a sweet little table and grow them with a light. Thoughts?

>>62468
>I grew some peppers in my yard last season, and they were plagued by caterpillars. I would go to work and everything was fine, and come home to find nothing but stalks. What's an organic way to deal with these guys outside of picking them off by hand?

There are a few options. Like anon pointed out, beneficial insects can normally do the trick if you have enough of an ecosystem for them to thrive. If there isn't much foliage in your yard then they may not stay there, or they may die from overpopulation. For caterpillars, I would suggest praying mantis or beneficial nematodes. Local garden centers should be able to hook you up with these.

There are also organic pesticides which will work. I said earlier, I don't know if these are much better for the environment than synthetics, though they are better for the plants and safer for humans. Spinosad is the only kind I have used, and I've only used it once in a dire situation.

If my plants are established enough to not be harmed by chickens, I'll let a few roam around in the garden for a few days, and they'll take care of all the caterpillars.

>>62474
>One of my chickens died recently. There was some blood on the last egg she laid. What the fuck happened?

That's almost impossible to know without a professional necropsy. If you have more chickens , and another dies similarly, check with local agricultural resources to find out where you can take the dead chicken to get tested. It shouldn't be too expensive and it will let you know whether or not you have a potential disease or something. Be warned that if they find something harmful and contagious, they will "quarantine" your place (no animals in or out).

If she didn't show any signs of being sick, and just randomly died after laying a bloody egg, it doesn't sound much like disease. If it was one of the cross breeds meant for high production, it's possible something just went wrong inside. They're prone to health issues like that. If it were a heritage breed, I would definitely watch your other hens closely.

>>62569
Also how much would I be producing if I had a 2'x6' box or should I use individual pots for each plant?

>>62569
>I live in a humble apartment in Northern IL and I really want to grow some kale or cabbage infront of my northfacing screendoor window. Now I'm thinking I could start with greenbeans but I worry that this winter weather and the lowlight I'm thinking I may just make a sweet little table and grow them with a light. Thoughts?

Do you mean inside or outside of your door? If outside, you could definitely grow some kale. Maybe just get a small floating cover cloth on it (you could find it at a garden center) whenever it freezes. It might last all winter. However it's way too late to try to start that now and get a harvest any time soon. If you started it now and kept the seedling inside till about february, then put it outside and protected it in frost, you'd have some early kale in mid-March or so. Or if you start it in February and put it outside in March, you'll have some by April.

As far as planting inside by a window, you're right about the dwindling sunlight being a problem right now. You probably couldn't get anything to significantly grow past seedling just on sunlight in a window right now. I don't have any experience growing inside with lights. All I could say is make sure you get a powerful enough light. They make lights for starting seedlings which wouldn't be powerful enough to grow a food plant, so just know what you're getting when you go for it. Good luck.

What is your source of income: your farm?
I'd like to have chickens at least one day. I'm more of a gardener myself.

>>62595
>Also how much would I be producing if I had a 2'x6' box or should I use individual pots for each plant?

Depending on what you're growing...if you wanted to mix it up, you could get 6 kale plants, 2 cabbage or lettuce plants (I would suggest lettuce, if you harvest it right it will grow back in a month and you can keep harvesting), and 2-4 pole bean plants. The beans you'll have to find a way to grow them up poles, but it's possible.

>>62604
>What is your source of income: your farm?

The farm is the main source of income. I also do freelance web design work, and I work on contract for a non-profit organization doing tech consulting as well as grant proposal writing. Of the three people that live on the farm, one has a full-time job elsewhere which also helps pay the bills.

These three people....

You, Mrs and kid???

>>62609
>>62609
Very interesting. Maybe if my boyfriends plans to be a professor plan out, we can live a self-sustainable life a little ways out in the country. I say a little ways because we live in Northwestern Ontario and our winters, especially where we live, is notorious.

>>62613
>You, Mrs and kid???
Nope, close friends and kindred spirits.

>>62615
>I say a little ways because we live in Northwestern Ontario and our winters, especially where we live, is notorious.

It's not impossible! I did some reading about successful high tunnels in Canada. I don't think they are productive all year round, but they will at least extend your season enough to bring you closer to sustaining yourselves.

>>60212
Oh fucking hell I remember using one of those things when I was younger, they're a pain in the arse