/diy/ - Do It Yourself

Don't.
My old combustion professor used to say that there were no old hydrogen researchers. It will get out of control and you will be lucky to live through it. live with the lower temp of acetylene.

>>603124
So why do you want to waste copious ammounts of energy? Electrolysis is only usefull on some very very specific things. (Making hydrogen soap bubbles in highschool, creating fuel for cells with waste energy [sunlight, waste heat and the likes])

>>603127
Not OP, but this is one of those "very specific things". You can actually buy such torches and they're used by goldsmiths.

>>603132
Dammit I am retards. Sometimes my brain just turns a blind eye to some sentences.
>Main use would be goldsmithing
That was like. Not there when I read the post.. Why goldsmithers use those temperatures?

Check out carsandwater on YouTube he has a video where he goes through his set up. I cannot remember if it has the separate lines you are wanting.

> OP
>>603126
That has some truth I guess. Hydrogen is amazingly powerful.

1) I want separate lines
2) I will bubble the hydrogen itself through acetone, for a non-stoichiometric mixture
3) absolutely tiniest possible "mixing chamber", less than 1ml volume. Inside a metal hypodermic needle
4) pressure relief "valves" in all parts (tape that can blow off)
5) maybe flashback-stops too


Amazingly, those crude setups, which lack all of the above, don't always explode. Youtube is full of 10$ setups.. With the creator surviving long enough to upload, apparently.

>>603133

It's more for the convenience. You don't need extreme amounts of energy from a larger torch because you're generally not working with much metal at once, but you need something hotter than regular non-accelerated torches because gold doesn't melt until nearly 2000°F.

Thus, a small, hot torch that doesn't need anything more than a wall outlet and distilled water is highly practical.

>>603137
I found it. It's a one-tube design too. With a flashback valve, no other securities I can see.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jghW2S6LH0c

>>603133
it isn't really that much about the temperature, 1000°C / 1800°F is plenty for gold and silver. It's about a tiny flame with a lot of energy! Plus, it won't blow away small parts and solder, unlike large torches with a lot of "wind".

But then, I never used a hydrogen torch before.

*bump*

Noone ever built this kind of dangerous, powerful melting-everything torch?

>>603388
I've built one before -they are generally a pain in the arse.

They need low voltage (3v to 4v) across each plate otherwise excessive voltage produces heat (steam) which produces pressure and you get foam building up off your Electrolyte. They are also really energy inefficient. They would need to draw one fuck of a lot of Amps to produce a flame like this>>603388. That's something no one ever mentions.

TL:DR Its a nice mess around project, but don't sink money into it - just buy a decent gas oxygen set up instead.

>>603429
Normal hydrogen generators are stated with around 70% efficiency. Still a lot of heat at 1000w, though.
I searched for powersupplies, and found a 24V/22A and a 48V/10A one. Both around 500W and 50 Euro. Don't bother with 12V PSUs at this power, noone wants to deal with 50 amps.

So far, I believe it's quite doable. Should be under 200 Euro, and a lot of diy time.

Now I can't really imagine how much power is even needed. Propane torches have crazy power, 3kw is normal. But then, you can do small brazing with a "windproof lighter". How far would I even get with a tiny 350..400w 3600°C flame?

>>603124

oxy-acetylene runs at 3500 °C (Wikipedia). Do you really need that extra 100 degrees?

>>603443
nope, those 100°C are no factor at all. A hydrogen setup runs at no costs (except tiny electricity costs), doesn't need refills and is more compact (I hope).

Also, this is DIY! :-)

>>603437
To answer my own question about power:

A tiny pen-torch has 30..70w. A portable bunsenburner-style torch has 2kw. Bith at 1300°C flame temperature.

So I guess those 350w out of a 500w PSU are plenty. And hopefully good to regulate via PWM too.

>>603443
The maximum flame temperature of Hydrogen is 3200°C. So Acetylene actually burns hotter.

>>603458
You are right, on searching again I found numbers of "only" 3000°C for hydrogen, and 3200°C for acethylen/ethin.

However, acethylen has 49MJ energy per kg, where hydrogen has by far the most energy of all gases with 141 MJ per kg. Therefore I would need to use less gas to achieve the same, resulting in a smaller flame and creating less "wind" blowing away my stuff. A smaller flame with the same energy/temperature also is finer for tiny welding or soldering.

Damn, look at those tiny flames in those youtube clips! Can't wait to wield one of those!

>>603124
I've been salvaging the parts to make an oxyhydrogen cutting torch. I recently scored a stainless steel cover for a big microwave.

Having the gasses separate is possible, but not really probable. It is super easy to make an oxyhydrogen torch and add to it a cooling gas like argon which is what you must have to do flame welding with it. Otherwise, it'll be way too hot. Normally, you'd have something maxing out 1,080 watts; like a 12v 90amp. It depends a lot on how you make your cells, but 90 amps is a good place to be.

I have many old microwave transformers and some heavy duty, heatsink-cooled bridge rectifiers.

>>603126
This is why you use spark arrestors and bubblers. Then when you shut it off, no flame goes back up the tube and into anything holding lots of gas. You also don't have a reservoir for the gas anywhere. The most you'll get is the same with other torches is just a semi-loud pop when the torch is turned off.

This is pretty simply stuff if you do a 30 minute bit of research online. You'd have more trouble just driving down the road and getting hit by someone else than having something go wrong with an oxyhydrogen torch. Outside of burning yourself on your work pieces of course. lol

>>603145
Separating the two gasses...what is this for specifically?

Yes, use both a bubbler and spark arrestor. Blowout pressure plugs with tape may or may not be a good idea depending on where they are located and what kind of tape you are using and too many other factors to list. Some tapes dry out and will loosen up. Also, if the tape gets warm it will loosen up as well. These units can get really warm and the lines coming from the main HHO cells can get pretty warm too. You don't want some tape loosening up 2 weeks from now and filling your room/garage with super flammable and highly explosive oxyhydrogen right next to you with the torch going. Personally, I'd not use tape or that sort of pressure release.

>>603429
>They need low voltage (3v to 4v) across each plate otherwise excessive voltage produces heat (steam) which

You need to use less voltage, like 1.2-2v per cell and have the plates rather close.

>foaming

Flush the system with vinegar and scrub the cell parts with vinegar. You may also be using too many amps and volts per cell as well has having contaminated electrolyte solution.

>They would need to draw one fuck of a lot of Amps to produce a flame like this>>603388.

1kw isn't much really. My DIY MOT spot welders take up to 2kw.

>>603552
>Damn, look at those tiny flames in those youtube clips! Can't wait to wield one of those!

I want to do some art projects with thin metals. I have a DIY vent hood I'll be using my system in.

Check out this stuff:

https://www.google.com/search?q=tin+can+art+torch&tbm=isch

Hydrogen and oxygen evolve at the the anode and cathode, respectively. Or do I have it backwards? The important part is that if you separate the electrodes you can collect either oxygen or hydrogen before they mix. The downside is that electrical resistance is much higher when you separate the electrodes. You might need several chambers to get the volume of gas you want per amount of time.

>>603566
I really can't see that being very effective in any HHO cell design. The cells are always really close together. So close, that if you crank up the amps too much the bubble can end up making dry spots between the electrodes.

"The king of random" is a complete douchetip, but damn if his HHO generator isn't the sexiest one I've ever seen.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nIq-g9vaecw

>>603590
Oh, and he has a how-to if you want to make one like his.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cqjn3mup1So

>>603560
Thank you for all the hints!

>12v/90A:
Holy shit, that's a lot of juice! I try to have a higher voltage, for less loss in resistance, and smaller plates (more of them stacked). 24 or 48v, not entirely decided yet.

> seperated H2 and O:
Mainly for security reasons. No matter what happens, if there isn't an explosive mixture to begin with, it can't explode. Also, this way I can play around with the individual gases, should I want.

> Pressure relief:
Ah, good hint! So maybe I'll use conical silicone plugs instead.
And a see-through steelwool-flashback-arrestor in both lines, just in case something goes wrong.

>>603561
>tin can art:
Wow, pure beauty! I'll keep this in mind! My SO will love this!

>>603783
>explosive mixture to begin with, it can't explode

Explosions aren't that big a deal if you have a flash back arrestor and keep your bubbler topped up. Having a Dry Cell is a good idea - so that electric connections aren't in contact with gas.

Even if your Bubbler blows, assuming it's topped up, all you get is a ringing in your ears that goes away after a couple of hours.

>>electrolysis
>>not using platinum anode and cathode
enjoy your hexavalent chromium and rabid cancer

>>603783
Well, the main concern is how much voltage there is per individual cell. Your 12v will be divided up across the cells. Actually, the best, most efficient voltage to use is just the voltage each cell needs, but getting it down that low with your power supply isn't plausible for most people. Although, the 5v 30amp output on a PC PSU would make it nice for a 2-3 cells and be more efficient. But, that's not many amps so you'll not get that much gas in comparison.

Security reasons? No, that doesn't matter. What you have will be highly explosive no matter what you do. Actually, the simpler your design is the safer it will be. Adding in gas separation requires more parts and more parts means more can go wrong.

>And a see-through steelwool-flashback-arrestor in both lines, just in case something goes wrong.

It isn't in case it goes wrong. The reason you use an flashback arrestor IS because it WILL go wrong every single time you use it. The gas lines you use will always flash back 100% of the time. This happens when your device shuts off and/or when the outward flow is too low. That's the way all gas torches work. There's no torch I know of that doesn't flash back as a part of the way it works. Which is why you always use a flashback arrestor, no exceptions.

>>603902
Hazards are why safety procedures are used and safety gear is used. Don't be huffing your gas.

>HHO
HHO is confirmed for bullshit
HHO and h2o are the same thing. Water is not going to torch or cut anything unless you pressurize it and make a water cutter.

Hydrogen gas will lose more energy in the process of electrolysis than you will gain from using it as a torch.

also you are going to blow yourself up.

>>604081
I think reasonable people know that it is not an energy creating process. It is not magic free money superfuel.

But it Is a way to turn electricity and water into a small hot flame that can be used for many hobbies.

>>604081
Wow, what a barrel of half-ignorance you are.

Go back to your overunity youtube video comment sections. 8/10

>>604081
seriously, fuck off. Op was never an overunity nut. He wanted a torch because it's a lot easier to make HHO than acetylene or oxygen.

I'm all for flaming overunity retards, but when someone actually has a good reason for using HHO? Are you going to tell NASA they're all retarded for using the lightest fuel they can?

>>604081
HHO is a MIXTURE.
H2O is a MOLECULE.

HHO !== H2O

HHO / oxyhydrogen / whatever you want to call it - has the fastest flame front of any combustible gas. I can't imagine it would be good for anything, really. It's so fast that it could bypass a flashback filter. I'd look into that before trying to extract the gas for anything.

As far as siphoning-off the hydrogen and oxygen from electrolysis, you just need your chamber to have two "cones" coming up instead of one open area. One cone over the anode, one over the cathode, to collect the separate gasses.

>>604081
haha, dumbass.

>>604119
>!==

ummo I think its just !=

in c, c++, c# and java at least

wouldn't know about your rubys and pythons though

>>604119
Ummo go back to chemistry son.

Other names
Hydrogen oxide
Dihydrogen monoxide (DHMO)
Hydrogen monoxide
Dihydrogen oxide
Hydrogen hydroxide (HH or HOH)
Hydric acid
Hydrohydroxic acid
Hydroxic acid
Hydrol[1]
μ-Oxido dihydrogen

>>604159
if you google or wiki hho everyone is talking about the gax mixture you get from elctrolysis. I'm sorry your trying to sound smart and you think that's good. You're being an ass and autistic as fuck though.

>>604158
In some languages, != is type-lenient and !== is type-strict. In those languages, it could be argued that HHO == H2O, but it certainly can't be argued that HHO === H2O.

>>604164
>hho
Brown's gas[4] and HHO are fringe science terms

Read IMPORPER science terms

>>604169
>I refuse to use useful words because I'm autistic and they are against my kink.

>>604169
You see someone use the term "HHO" and you make it a point to throw a fit about how the term actually signifies water even though you know everyone's talking about oxyhydrogen?

Yeah, you're autistic, son. By the way, in the English language, we have homonyms.

>>604169
>HHO are fringe science terms

At one time. Now it is a main stream DIY term taken from the kook realm and applied for something actually useful.

I like this discussion, and want to strongly separate myself from "free energy" esotheric "science".
English is not my mother tongue, so please tell me how to name this gas mixture properly. I tried
> hydrogen/oxygen "HHO" torch
in my op.

Back to topic:
I can't find useful scientific literature about water electrolysis. Which sucks.

My two biggest questions are now:

>> What would be a good electrode material? I will have "neutral electrodes", which means anode and kathode will be the same material (because, the same plate).

>> Any hints on what current per plate surface? Those esotheric freaks calculate the *complete* surface area, including neutral plates in series. They never heard that the current is the same at any point in a serial connection? wtf!

>> image: molten Al2O3 aka "ruby"

>>604245

>> Electrode material:

- it should be chemically stable and non-poisonous. Honestly, I can't imagine chromium from stainless steel is an issue in these microscopic amounts

- low voltage drop (?) is preferred, as this dictates the efficiency

- cheap and available. Platinum - yeah right. Even platinum plating would be an expensive custom job. No idea if this would be long-term stable.

Stainless steel? Cheap, poisonous chromium?

Chromium-free steel? Surely not chemically stable enough.

Nickel? Graphite? Those pop up in literature from time to time..

>>604245
>What would be a good electrode material?
Good in "not rotting" sense: platinum, iridium
Good in "higher efficiency" sense: ruthenium oxide, iridium oxide
Good in "I can afford it" sense: stainless steel
The latter will produce small amounts hexavalent chromium, which isn't exactly good for your health. Not that anyone cares.

>scientific literature
I'd check Ullmann's encyclopedia first. If nothing else, it's guaranteed to list useful resources.

>current is the same at any point in a serial connection
The idea is that you have several cells in series, each operating at the same current.

>>604245
>What would be a good electrode material?

Stainless steel for everything. There's no reason for anything else. Don't be a tard and use crap like platinum, iridium, or anything other than stainless steel. It really is the best you can use that won't set you back $1,000+.

>scientific

Use google scholar.

>>604247
Who gives a shit if it is safe or not? You never use open flames in non-fully-ventilated areas and you aren't drinking your electrolyte water. If you are....

>>604196
The term itself has no useful applications. And it's incorrect.

>>603572
I know; that's exactly what I said in the post. But if you want be able to collect the gases separately, that's what you have to do.

>>604328
No one cares.

This isn't /sci

>>604357
I am from /diy/ and I care. Shit like HHO is on par with the expanding earth hypothesis, evolution deniers and perpetual motion permanent magnet engines. It's all mixed up with free energy fags trying to run their cars off water generated from electrolysis powered from the alternators in there cars and they all think the guberment and oil companies know about it but wont let the tech out.

>>604245
I really did not have a problem with your post OP, it's when the other fags come in and try to say that HHO is a scientifically acceptable name. BTW the appropriate name is oxyhydrogen just like oxygen and acetylene is called oxyacetylene.

>>604358
Thanks. Will call it oxyhydrogen, until someone else demands otherwise :-P

I had not much luck finding any scientific literature online. I'll try to find
> "elektrochemische verfahrenstechnik" by Volkmar M. Schmidt
in a local library.

>>604358
take your autism medication

>>604374

see

>>604403

I found some data on electrode metals. You get an "overvoltage" loss on every electrode, depending on material and if it's the anode or kathode.

When using a single metal for both electrodes, iron and nickel are the best, with 1.2v and 1.42v combined loss (at 0.1A/cm2). Better than platinum (1.9v) and graphite (1.72v).

When using nickel on the H2 side and iron on the O side, you can go as low as 1.07v. Everything else is worse or expensive (platinated platinum).

I'll try to find out what happens when using pure iron or nickel as electrodes. Corrosion or poisonous nickel compounds or the like.

>>604433
We used carbon electrodes in chemistry class.

You dont have to worry about toxicity then. I'm not sure how expensive they are thoguh.

>>604547
You can source them from salvaged stuff (battery cores, carpenter's pencils, etc.) Flat plain gouging rods (not copperclad) will normally be the largest ones you can find easily and fairly cheaply from a welding supplier. But, they are like 1/4" x 12". So cell design will be non--standard.

"HHO" Is not an accurate term, as both hydrogen and oxygen are both diatomic when alone, and if together they form H2O.

>>604566

>>604602
You need to head on back to /b/, little one.

>>604547
>>604552

Thanks for the hints.
However, it's kind of a difference if you want to demonstrate electrolysis in class, for a few minutes, or if you want to pump 500 watts through it for hours, to produce as much gas as possible without poisoning yourself, overheating the whole setup and the electrodes eating up themselves.

Ok guys. What happens when you use non-stainless steel? Like chromium-free regular steel, or even pure iron sheets? I'd guess they will eventually oxidize. Either the top parts which are not under water, or maybe even the oxygen forming electrode oxidizes immediately from the produced oxygen?

There doesn't seem to be chromium-free stainless steel out there.

>>604622
>I'd guess they will eventually oxidize.
More like they corrode rapidly and turn your electrolyte into brown sludge. Same with copper, except that you'll get blue-green sludge.
Dunno if some other forms of carbon last better, but at least pencil leads and the carbon sticks from batteries corrode pretty fast.

There are nickel-free stainless steels, but I've never heard of chromium-free stainless steel.

You can get carbon electrodes for electrolysis on ebay. The reason you want to use carbon is because it's non-reactive. You're not going to be losing electrode material to side reactions, and possible creating toxic solutions.

What are you using for an electrolyte?

>>604622
You won't find chromium-free stainless steel because stainless steel IS chromium steel.

Here's some non-stainless steel electrodes after a long runtime:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NMmhwiCFQzU
Yes, they don't look new and shiny. But not worse than regular rusting in water, maybe even better than that.

>>605287
They might be ok if they're thick steel. The rust build up should protect the rest of the metal from further corrosion. In a dry cell you can take it apart to clean the plates once in a while.

If you watch the rest of his videos he's always talking about Stainless Steel though - so he knows it's the way to go.

>>603590
why don't you like him?
i'v eseen his fresnel lens ad fire piston videos and he seems like a bretty cool guy

>>603566
Hoffman apparatus. This is what OP is looking for.