/diy/ - Do It Yourself

>>369412
PS: I've looked into various siphon systems wondering if that would do the trick, in order to transport water from the reservoir to the top, but the equilibrium law wouldn't allow it to happen, so I guess it wouldn't work.

>pic related, siphon.

Any ideas...? Also, bump.

>>369412
>>369413
Yeah, it's called google. This is what i found in 5 minutes on my phone:

http://ecosustainablevillage.com.ip01-web23.net/from_creeks_down_hill.htm

>>369414
Thanks, but I have already checked hydraulic ram pumps, and they work well when you have water pressuring downwards, allowing the pressure valve to open and pushing the water upwards with the help of air pressure. Unfortunately this does not apply to what I am looking for for two reasons:
>I do not 'own' a river or a stream of water strong enough to push it upwards.
>Traditional japanese methods surely didn't involve this, unless the village had a passing river close, and this would only apply to houses in direct contact of the river.

Any other ideas, please?

>>369414
Also, please note that I am restricted to a vase, so avoid snarky remarks like this guy I just quoted.

Shameless bump.

Also, if the siphon system applies to this device, can someone please explain to me how to set it up correctly in order for it to work.

>note that I am limited by space.

>>369412

So I don't actually know anything for certain, but I am relatively certain that unless you use a mechanical pump you won't be able to move water against gravity with no energy expenditure. Then again high school physics was a long time ago.

All cheekiness aside, I would assume in traditional Japanese gardens they would have used a running stream. Capillary action, siphons, evaporation, and shit like >>369414
are the only things I can think of off hand that would move water against gravity that isn't a pump.

I'd say just get a pump.

I'm posting primarily to bump this, because I really want a shishi odoshi as well, so I want this thread to succeed so I may harvest it's knowledge. Personally, I was going to get a desktop fountain that I liked, and then incorporate a shishi odoshi into it.

>>369424
Thanks for your input. I'm seeing that I'll probably be forced to buy a fountain-sized water pump like everyone else... The siphon method seems the most logical and fitting system considering the space I have to work on, but the barrier I am facing with those is that you must have an equilibrium of water pressure and gravity, otherwise, if it is imbalanced, the water will just flow back to the original reservoir - it must have the same weight beyond the 'middle point' to push the water to your second end.

Also, I'm having a similar idea as yours, and as you probably know already, it's hell to have a non-electric water lifting system to 'feed' the shishi odoshi.

OP bumping for possible new ideas, appreciated beforehand, thank you.

>>369417
>Traditional japanese methods

Ask a servant to fill a tank with water, or do it by yourself. Tank must be at higher level, of course.

when we use to clean our huttub all we'd do was take an 8 foot length of hose, but it in the water, and suck the end till water came out. voila instant pump

>>369441
Not kidding when I say I've considered that (except the servant lol), but to have a bamboo dispenser for me to fill and dispose water to the shishi odoshi, considering I will have living plants in the vase. This, of course, as a plant watering solution using a shishi odoshi as a decorative piece.

>>369443
That's the siphon method, and it's the same as stealing gasoline from cars. I am wondering if that works somehow under the conditions I have. The factors of the siphon system are gravity and pressure/vacuum, and there must be an equilibrium between both. This means that beyond the middle point, there has to be enough 'drop' as the fluid weight going upwards.

Thank you for both your inputs.

>>369450

I use siphons all the time to empty fish tanks for cleaning and its not difficult. Just make sure the output of the hose is lower than the input, get a solid flow going and it will maintain itself until the water runs out. Just test it yourself with a bucket of water and a bit of hose.

sorry op, but you fundamentally misunderstand how the original systems worked. Large manors and castles, even well to do peasant houses, were built with direct access to flowing water. Any automated system would have been directly connected to a stream. Manuel systems would have most likely been powered by servants.

Someone, somewhere would have to have been applying pressure at some point in the system. If not from a natural source + gravity, then from man power.

A lot of stuff is romanticize in animu or readining mango, and modern reproductions tend to be for nostalgia purposes rather than practicality. But the cold hard reality is that a lot of neat water features or decorations used in olden times were powered by some poor son of a bitch whose job was to tirelessly haul water back and forth and pour it into a mechanism to keep the system going.

>>369488
Siphons are indeed excellent for emptying a reservoir to a lower point where you'd take the end-deposit and dispose of the contents, as an example. The problem is that my end point is on a higher place. I need to get my water cycling, from the reservoir vase (bottom) to the shishi odoshi dispenser (top).

The problem is that physics don't allow this specific case (pic related), so if there is, in fact, a way to have a siphon or siphon-like system to direct the water upwards, it would be gold.

>>369506
Thanks, I know that it seems very idealistic to have a perfect, pump-less system with perpetual flow, but I am getting closer to accepting the possibility of purchasing a small pump. There are several hydro-mechanical systems to have the job done without electrical input, but unfortunately those either require natural force like you mentioned (a river flowing) or major contraptions that generate power to feed a pump (like building a small waterwheel). The problem I have is space indeed.

Thanks for your input, guys.

hydrodynamics - the arcane art of fighting gravity with zero energy input.

what about a hanging container like those water clocks you would make in school as a child, where the water drips out very slowly all day, and then you refill it from the shishi odoshi vase at night.

Be kinda neat if you made your own pump that was powered from the heat of a candle or light bulb.

>>369512

No, you can't do that. If you want water to go up hill you either have to start it uphill to begin with (plus a little more for energy loss) or have a pump. Period.

You need:
A) A source of water such as a river, tap or other non recirculating source.

or

B) A pump and source of energy to run that.

There is no "magic pudding" water recirculation system.

>>369527
What this anon said. As you raise or lower anything, you increase or decrease it's energy. As you raise something, you increase it's energy. This is called Potential Energy and is given by

Energy=(density)(9.81 m/s2)(height)

in fluids, which includes water. As you can see, as you increase height of whatever (in meters), the potential energy increases as well because everything else is constant.

To overcome this increase in energy, you must add energy to the system, by means of a pump. A siphon will not work in this case because that requires energy to move the water, gained by lowering the water level below where it is being siphoned from.

TL;DR: You will need a pump. They make quiet models.

Use a hand pump. It's what Napoleon used for his fountains. Though the Ancient japanese probably used a flowing stream, they did irrigate rice fields after all.

Ram pumps are a neat thing.

>>369527
Yes, that's my point as well, there would have to be an applied vacuum source for that to be possible (the presence of a water pump). Elsewise, gravity always pulls the stream down the tube, even if I suck off the air from the other end.

>>369555
Yes, a siphon would only transfer fluids to a point of equilibrium, which is clearly not the case. I'll check some quiet pumps, hopefully there must be cheap solutions.
>poorfag

>>369559
A hand pump would be neat. A bit more complicated to develop, but it's powerless and all about air pressure. I watched a video where the simplest hand pump was explained, with a tube with a sort of "trap door" kind of impediment in the bottom. Each time you pushed downwards, a wooden plaque (trap door) would lift and allow the flow to go up; when it goes back up, it traps the water in the tube; rinse, repeat.

Thank you for all your inputs, fellow anons.

Well, I can't remember much of my hidraulic class, so no formulas and stuff, but something was clear: as you move fluids trough a pipe, you fight friction, so when you tray to lift water from bottom to top, you must add a little energy to compensate teh friction.
Even if you find a way to lift water without loss of energy (can't be done because of termodinamics), you are still screwed because of friction, and we go back to what has been said the hole thread: no way it's gonna happen.

As everybody else here, I recomend a pump, but a fishtank pump. Set it in the bottom of the goku and keep the water level like one inch above it; trough the bamboo that raises water yo hide the hose and you'l be /diy/no enough to cover the pump in the tank, as well as the electric cord.

Srry, really wished an automate, but it's un-do-able :(

By the way, pumps cost about 10 bucks. Not gringo, so no idea if thats too expensive.
Oh, and get a small one with no filters, won't need'em if you clorate water once in a week.

>>369524
You could potentially do that by using the candle to heat water to turn a turbine inside of a magnetic field, and generate electricity, but this could defeat the purpose

>>369592
thanks for the input and advice, I am definitely going for the fish tank/fountain pump, and might try to design a hand pump model for personal use and see if it's functional and practical. Lovely ass, by the way!

>>369594
The purpose for a cheap model would be to try to sell some in the long run, and the target price could be 20€ easily considering I can get all of the materials for free in my location - I don't have bamboo, but it's the same family and works just as well. I would only charge for the woodwork process, but adding the pump price, I doubt I'd have any sales. But that's not important right now anyway, and I can afford 10 bucks for my own piece, so it's alright.

>>369412
could something along these lines work? maybe with a break in the downward cold water chain(for the pouring effect) and then an inverted conical shaped catcher to keep the cold water isolated from the hot? this might be an all around bad idea, wanted to throw it out there regardless.

>>369716
I appreciate the help a lot, and I've saved those schematics for possible future purposes, but seems a bit complex to incorporate in the system I'm thinking of - I think it would take a lot of space that I'd be happy to leave open.

Nevertheless, it's interesting thermodynamics!

>>369716
The right image will not work in reality.

dude, why not solar powered / wind powered micro pump? no one will ever know.

>>369736
Yes, I noticed, the 'drainer' wouldn't work because the water simply wouldn't be able to be pushed downwards, but I think I understood the concept idea of the left model.

>>369738
Solar cell panels are very, underlining very, expensive. Wind-powered pumps would look nice if a miniature windmill were to be built and placed next to it. The problem with wind power is that it requires air flow and this project would be for indoor placement.

The closest to those ideas would be having a waterwheel installed to generate power to feed a pump, but then again, it would defeat the purpose of simplicity. I think I'll try building a waterwheel kind of pump for another different project as the design interests me a lot. Thanks for the input of ideas.

>>369412

the energy has to come from somewhere. you need some sort of pump, no way around it. only with a natural spring or water fall (eg. energy comes from somewhere else) can you do without. it's simply physics.

you could put a resevoir up high, and fill it with buckets, if you were an emperor or rich person and lackeys to fill it.

no way around the physics of the thing.

>>369659

you do NOT want a fish tank pump, those are usually just air pumps that assist a siphon and aerate at the same time.

there are cheap ($20) and silent, low-flow, low-head fountain pumps meant for this very purpose. hard to beat those.

>>369763
The ones I've seen in the tutorial videos are fountain pumps exactly. I wasn't sure which would be more appropriate since I haven't gone to the DYI-goods store to check them.

The product I am aiming at should be silent and cheap, I will look into those, thank you.

>>369412
just get a cheap motorized squirt gun, remove the pump, connect it to a solar panel and battery. or get this usb powered one.

>>369412
just get a cheap motorized squirt gun, remove the pump, connect it to a solar panel and battery. or get this usb powered one.

>>369792

Oh, that is cute.

>>369792
I enjoyed the squirt gun idea. I think I'm still going for the pump for mine, since I think overall it would be more expensive, I just need to buy a couple of tubes and the pump with the other systems suggested, and I definitely won't be able to afford a solar cell panel. Also, since the USB power is distributed for all ports and not fed individually to each port, it wouldn't work for me since I need the full power at most times for my audio interface hardware for my laptop.

Thanks for the idea, anon, and I enjoy the look of that small shishi odoshi.