/diy/ - Do It Yourself

how much space would a person need per milk goat?
do they need to be pregnant often or will constant milking keep them producing?
would you expect difficulty socializing goats to dogs?

How much land do I need to own in order to realistically grow enough food to sustain myself?

This will be a really dumb question... but how long does it take vegetables to grow? Would I be able to cycle through multiple harvests of vegetables in a short period of time? Or am I basically stuck with like one or two harvests per year?

I don't know anything about this but I've always been curious.

I grow tomatoes, but they grow so slowly I never get any fruit. Cherry tomatoes end up taking 70 days, and beefsteaks don't even get the chance to produce fruit. I've watered them regularly and give them as much sunlight as I can. What am I doing wrong?

What do you feed your hens and how much does it cost per hen per day.

1. I've heard the govt has been cracking down on raw milk and small farms in general. Is this true? Have you been affected by something similar?
2. What state or region are you located in?
3. It is my dream to become completely self sufficient. The only way is to become a homesteader. How much money do I need?

>>25567
>"how much space would a person need per milk goat?"
Depends on how much you want to supplement their diet from grazing. Technically you could keep it in a small enclosed area if you fed it enough. If you wanted to supplement minimally, one milk goat would probably need about half an acre to be happy with minimal worms and diseases.

>"do they need to be pregnant often or will constant milking keep them producing?"
Milk goats have to have a kid every year to keep producing. Normal goats, meat goats, only produce milk long enough for their kid, but dairy goats will produce for a year before they need to have another kid.

>"would you expect difficulty socializing goats to dogs?"
No, as long as the dogs were even-tempered and already socialized. Some dogs are just too instinctual or evil to keep around livestock, but most are fine if you socialize them correctly. Some will just take to the goats right away. One of mine thought he was a goat the minute we introduced him.

>>25594
are you going to build your own internet

>>25610
Funny you ask that, because that's something I've seriously wanted to do - creating my own internet.

This isn't directly related, but related nonetheless.

There's a fox that eat my apples. I've seen him. He comes during the day and doesn't give a single fuck. Do you know of any effective way to keep foxes and rabbits away from my veggies and fruits?

I don't want to kill the fox because it also eats rabbits, which are even more destructive. It's also a protected species and I'll admit it's a bit adorable.

Am I just forced to fence everything? That would really suck.

>>25578
>"How much land do I need to own in order to realistically grow enough food to sustain myself?"
There are tons of variables for that, from climate to soil fertility, to growing style. Sustainable farming, or farming with minimal environmental impact, takes a little more land than just pumping out produce on a plot of land. In order for healthy and responsible crop rotation, it would take between .5-1 acre to realistically sustain a family. You would have some surplus if it were just yourself. But really, location is everything.

>"This will be a really dumb question... but how long does it take vegetables to grow? Would I be able to cycle through multiple harvests of vegetables in a short period of time? Or am I basically stuck with like one or two harvests per year?"
Everything takes different amounts of time to grow. Normally, you grow in seasons. Some crops are single harvest, like beats, radishes, turnips, carrots, kohlrabi, etc. A lot can be harvested on a weekly basis throughout the season, like peppers, kale, spinach, chard, etc etc. Lettuce can be harvested about once a month if harvested correctly. There are a lot of prolific veggies that produce an abundance that you'll be able to harvest on a weekly basis.

majoring in horticulture after I transfer next year.
my family has 40 acres of raw land and I am looking to run aquaponics-greenhouse system to raise catfish and freshwater shrimp alongside organic produce year round.

http://wakeup-world.com/2011/07/14/how-1-million-pounds-of-organic-food-can-be-produced-on-3-acres/

looking to run a system similar to this one, only for profit rather than non-profit so I can continue to improve the land.

do you have any experience with aquaponics? do you think this could be done with mostly recycled materials? I have done some research and small scale lettuce beds and catfish with my Dad when I was younger with great success and I think I could really do this.

>>25587
>"I grow tomatoes, but they grow so slowly I never get any fruit. Cherry tomatoes end up taking 70 days, and beefsteaks don't even get the chance to produce fruit. I've watered them regularly and give them as much sunlight as I can. What am I doing wrong?"
Are you growing them in the ground or in pots? What season do you try to grow them in, and what is your climate? Could be disease, but that's unlikely. It could also be poor pollination. They are self-pollinating, but they don't always work. You can get a paint brush and try to pollinate them yourself by brushing the pollen onto the buds, or just shake the branches once they hit pollination. Depending on the climate, tomatoes can be tricky. They have a peak season most everywhere.

>>25590
>"What do you feed your hens and how much does it cost per hen per day."
Locally milled organic feed, since we're certified organic. I haven't broken down the per-hen cost, I normally go by egg revenue vs. food cost. But we have anywhere between 100 and 200 hens and open a new bag of feed every other day at least. I have to charge $5.50 a dozen to make it a worthy venture.

>>25594

About point one, I've worried about government cracking down small farms. Maybe it's paranoia, but I get the feeling that if a lot of people start being self-sufficient then the government may take some action to "protect" the economy, the "welfare" of the nation, and whatever bullshit they come up these days.

>>25594
>"1. I've heard the govt has been cracking down on raw milk and small farms in general. Is this true? Have you been affected by something similar?"
Yes and yes. It is illegal to sell raw milk for human consumption. Producing milk is impossible for small farmers because of this. There are also many other regulations, all a result from special interest lobbies from Big Agri, which makes it difficult for small farmers to succeed. Agriculture is one area where it is very apparent that our government has been bought by major corporations.

>"2. What state or region are you located in?"
North Central North Carolina

>"3. It is my dream to become completely self sufficient. The only way is to become a homesteader. How much money do I need?"
Being completely self-sufficient is a very grand goal, and would take a pretty hefty upstart cost. With no equipment you would need tens of thousands of dollars. Maybe a hundred or more. Honestly, the best way to go is to be part of a community and not try to do everything on your own. A completely closed-system farm is not possible in all climates anyways.

>>25660
>"There's a fox that eat my apples. I've seen him. He comes during the day and doesn't give a single fuck. Do you know of any effective way to keep foxes and rabbits away from my veggies and fruits?"
Do you have a couple hundred dollars? A humane and effective way is to get portable electric fencing, like shown in my OP picture (the white netting in the background). Set it up around your stuff and he won't go near it.

>"Am I just forced to fence everything? That would really suck."
The portable fencing is super-easy and you can take it down if you don't need it. Otherwise, yeah, basically. Kill it, trap it, or deter it. There's not really any miracle deterrents, most you find in stores won't work.

>>25663
>"do you have any experience with aquaponics? do you think this could be done with mostly recycled materials? I have done some research and small scale lettuce beds and catfish with my Dad when I was younger with great success and I think I could really do this."
You can definitely do that. I don't have any direct experience with aquaponics but I have seen amazing sustainable systems which produce a staggering amount of food doing just what you're describing. As far as recycled materials, it's unlikely. You may find some recycled frames for the greenhouses, but you would want new plastic, and you'd really want new hydroponic equipment too. But honestly, with an idea like that, you could probably get a grant to get you started. Agriculture grants are disappearing but they're still there, and the innovative ideas always get considered. Good luck bro, that sounds pretty awesome.

Does vertical farming work? By vertical farming I mean having several stories or levels of soil with crops in a fashion akin to skyscapers by taking up more vertical space than horizontal space. What if it is used in conjuction with solar energy to light agriculture?

>>25681
>"About point one, I've worried about government cracking down small farms. Maybe it's paranoia, but I get the feeling that if a lot of people start being self-sufficient then the government may take some action to "protect" the economy, the "welfare" of the nation, and whatever bullshit they come up these days."

The crackdown isn't necessarily on "self-sufficiency," you can produce and eat anything you want to yourself. It's what you can produce to sell for others to eat which is being raped by the federal government. They're in Monsanto's pocket and there's not much we can do about it. Well, maybe Occupy Wall Street can bring some light to this aspect of corporations buying our government. Let's hope change actually comes.

>>25723
Thanks. I'll see about the electric fencing, even if it's just on particular areas.

>>25760
I'd have thought it was for safety reasons. Selling unpasteurized milk and juice and what have you is not something the cdc wants going on.

>>25755
>"Does vertical farming work? By vertical farming I mean having several stories or levels of soil with crops in a fashion akin to skyscapers by taking up more vertical space than horizontal space."
There are concepts similar to this, but your main problem would be sunlight. I have seen tiered systems, where it was build up in sort of a slope, but you couldn't stack the stories straight on top of each other. Most food need maximum sunlight, even a little shade affects production a decent amount. I work on developing ways for people to grow food in their back yard, and I have a design for a 8 foot tower that fits your description with sloped tiers so people can grow small produce in a very small area.

>"What if it is used in conjuction with solar energy to light agriculture?"
Are you talking about growing lights to grow produce instead of directly sunlight? It would take too much energy to effectively produce anything with solar power in that way, especially with solar power we have now, it just isn't efficient enough.

How do I make my soil less sandy? The soil is dry and thin so it is pretty much dust. How do I turn it into beautiful rich soil?

>>25594

>3. It is my dream to become completely self sufficient. The only way is to become a homesteader. How much money do I need?

Not op here, but I would advise you to move to and Eastern country, my grandparents live in Ukraine and they don't have thousands of dollars, but they have their own garden for like $5 a year (1 acre or less, you can buy more but you won't be able to tend to it). It yields enough potatoes , tomatoes, cucumbers (or pickles), cabbages, corn (only during summer, its a one time harvest), strawberries + raspberries (only during summer), onions. You have to work hard during Spring and Summer but you can make enough to sustain yourself for the entire year without any equipment but shovels. They prevent the food from spoiling throughout the year by putting it in a large jar which is heated and sealed.(same way to make pickles)

>>25786
>"I'd have thought it was for safety reasons. Selling unpasteurized milk and juice and what have you is not something the cdc wants going on."
The "safety reasons" are largely manufactured and greatly exaggerated. As long as it is handled responsibly, raw milk poses the same amount of thread as pasteurized milk. There have been independent studies which completely destroy the statements made by the FDA about many of the regulations they have in place for "safety."

Besides, that should all be beside the point. In a free market consumer society, people should have the right to choose what they want to buy. Full disclosure of risks and other things are fine, but regulating and industry like the FDA does is unnecessary and when you follow the paper trail, it always leads back to big corporations trying to squash the little guys.

On a small farm, the consumer can come and visit the grounds and know exactly how their food is handled and where it comes from. They can't do that with major corporate agriculture, and trust me, there's a reason they don't want people visiting their facilities and grounds.

>>25744

when we did the backyard test scale we used old free craigslist fiberglass hot tubs for tanks and made our small greenhouse out of a lot of different size free craigslist glass and salvaged timber.

the hot tubs are still a go because they have a large capacity and are still easy to be found for cheap in surprisingly large numbers. i have rebuilt several high volume pool pumps, know how to make large natural rock/sediment water filters, and have accepted that I will actually have to buy a lot of piping and plumbing new.

the greenhouses are the last real issue now. making even a few large greenhouse with free glass- framing each random panel individually, arranging them with the structure, sealing them, etc. is an insane amount of table saw work and time. that's why I am looking for ideas.

I wil definitely look into grants though. thanks for the support.

>>25814
>"How do I make my soil less sandy? The soil is dry and thin so it is pretty much dust. How do I turn it into beautiful rich soil?"
There's not a whole lot you can do in a short period of time. It would take a lot of careful and diligent amending with heavy compost, manure, and organic matter. Adding a new batch of compost every season, tilling it nicely, and cover-cropping in the off season will get you in the right direction but don't expect the soil to get better quickly.

>>25832
I would never even touch glass greenhouses. We use plastic high-tunnels for winter production and they work perfectly fine, and if you preserve the plastic, it can last 5-8 years. But that's an awesome amount of recycled supplies you were able to come up with, I would highlight that aspect in any grant proposal you write. Since you have already tested a system, you are basically a shoe-in for a grant.

So what's the deal with land?
I'd like to throw up some fruit trees and stuff in my mom's small backyard but this place is rented, meaning it's not really "ours." I skimmed the renter's agreement and don't remember anything about agricultural rights, don't think I'll own a home for a few decades if ever, does that exclude me from performing several renovations and constructions that could help immensely? You need special permission here just to put a tiny hole in the floor for cable.
Also, I don't know the name of it but there's a type of lemon tree from my dad's I would totally grow here, the thing produces all year round with very rare and short downtime. Fresh lemons whenever you want them, if you can keep the ants away.

>>25842
I started composting and put fertilizer in the soil. I put peas in which seem to be growing well. The peas are supposed to put nutrients in the soil.

>>25817
:'O it sounds beautiful. What part of Ukraine is this?

>>25760
I have zero confidence in the govt. I predict things will only get worse, but that you for clearing that up (as long as I'm not selling, I won't get raped by FBI agents busting down my door). Which brings me to another question. Any good resources on taxes? How do you manage to pay those if you don't really generate any money.

>>25865
>"I'd like to throw up some fruit trees and stuff in my mom's small backyard but this place is rented, meaning it's not really "ours." I skimmed the renter's agreement and don't remember anything about agricultural rights, don't think I'll own a home for a few decades if ever, does that exclude me from performing several renovations and constructions that could help immensely?"
That's really up to your landlord. Normally, if things aren't spelled out directly in the lease, you can assume you can do certain things without getting in trouble. But you should just ask your landlord directly, I really doubt he'd mind you doing some improvement and landscaping. My old landlord was thrilled with the rock-wall raised bed I built in front of the townhome I lived it.

Fruit trees take some time to cultivate and produce fruit though. You may be out of there before they even produce something. I would suggest doing more seasonal fruits, like berries. You would just need a little plot, the plants are reletively small, and they're either gone at the end of the season or you can rip them out when you move out (or leave them for the next tenet). Strawberries, blueberries, blackberries...all these would be good. There's also a ton of veggies you could grow with just a little land.

>>25820
>>people should have the right to choose what they want to buy.
People are fucking stupid. That's why we don't.

>>25885
>"I started composting and put fertilizer in the soil. I put peas in which seem to be growing well. The peas are supposed to put nutrients in the soil."
I would contact your local Cooperative Extension agency, or some other local government agricultural agency, and ask them where you can get a soil sample done, and once it's done, ask them to help you analyze it to see what nutrients you need specifically. There are certain cover-crops you can plant which will add various nutrients to the soil. The peas will only add nutrients once they're done producing and you turn them into the ground.

Alright, OP. I'm looking to grow only one or two plants inside (Rouge D'Irak tomatoes). I want to try growing it now but it's getting too cold to have it outside. What are some cheap options?

>>25887
>>25887

Any part, they do it in Russia too. People rent small plots of land (there's a lot of it available for pennies) and plant their own stuff to sustain yourself and sell surplus in the local marketplace

Also you can take from government farms to sustain yourself. I've collected wheat and corn for free. (it is not allowed, but you will not get in trouble because local authorities overlook this, they just want to get drunk).

pic related its a ukrainian gov't corn farm, nobody is guarding it or anything like that, take as much as you can collect with your hands and fit in your car

>>25887
>"Any good resources on taxes? How do you manage to pay those if you don't really generate any money."
As far as business goes, you won't have to pay taxes if you don't generate money. There are still property taxes and stuff, which you can usually get a break on if you're using the land for agricultural purposes. Luckily, one of the people who founded the farm with me is a CPA, so she handles all the tax stuff. I couldn't imagine not having an accountant.

>>25865
>I'd like to throw up some fruit trees and stuff in my mom's small backyard but this place is rented, meaning it's not really "ours."

A landlord'd be mad to object to you putting up fruit trees, assuming you're not putting them somewhere they'll block light or give root trouble. You're offering to improve his property for free. Just don't bank on being allowed to try to transplant them if/when you move.

Hi OP !
Can I grow something edible in a balcony?I really dont have much space

>>25941
Do you hire people to work on farms? Or do you prefer Mexican or South American day laborers.

How much would an American earn working on a farm?

Any chance of a farmer or worker earning enough to live comfortably?

>>25861

thanks man. I appreciate the props, I take the sustainability aspect of this project very seriously.

if I get the drawings/plans done and start on the infrastructure (a barn, a deep well, a ram pump on the creek, rain collection, and the first greenhouse) this summer, hopefully after I get used to school next fall I can get my ag. uni. to help me out or point me in the right direction to submit a proposal.

is your operation for profit? what vegetables do you consistently/primarily produce? was receiving your organic certification difficult?

>>25908
>"People are fucking stupid. That's why we don't."
That's naive. The reason we don't is because corporations want to force you to support their product/industry. The evidence is there. The ex VP of Monsanto is now the "food czar." The entire government is a conflict of interest. My customers aren't stupid, they ask a ton of questions about their food and make informed decisions.

>>25931
>"Alright, OP. I'm looking to grow only one or two plants inside (Rouge D'Irak tomatoes). I want to try growing it now but it's getting too cold to have it outside. What are some cheap options?"
Tomatoes are extremely seasonal. You'd need a decent set-up to grow them inside, a similar set-up you would need to grow cannabis. Very intensive and involved. Tomatoes require a lot of energy, and the sun is really the best place to get that energy. I'd wait till next season. The only way for people to grow tomatoes out of season is with significant greenhouses, and even then you'd have to have them started already, and they'd only last you through December or so. That's in this region.

>>25941
Do you sell your organic crops as well, or is this purely a self sufficient thing?
How large is your land and how much in taxes?

Where get seed potatoes?
For that matter where do you recommend getting your seed crops in general?

>>25958
>"Hi OP !"
Hello.

>"Can I grow something edible in a balcony?I really dont have much space"
Absolutely. Get some 1'x1', 1'x2', or 2'x2' pots, how ever many you want and can fit, and you'd be able to grow a few heads of lettuce (to be harvested once a month while in season), some kale, spinach, chard (all can be harvested weekly), and maybe some carrots or beets (harvested once, of course). When planting or transplanting, look on the seed packet for the minimum amount of space needed, and use that or just subtract an inch or so if you need. Some people grow tomatoes on their balcony but I don't know many people who have had success with that, and I've only had success with tomatoes in full production in the ground.

How hard would it be to just drop my job and go live by myself somewhere as a hermit? Preferably using some kind of electricity generator such as those huge fans or solar panels and farming my own food. How long would it take for me to settle and have everything up and running? And more importantly, is it possible and how much money would it take?
Note: This doesn't mean living completely alone in the middle of the woods avoiding civilization. Just living self sufficiently but not as a full time farmer or anything like that. Maybe even on an island.

>>25964
>"Do you hire people to work on farms? Or do you prefer Mexican or South American day laborers."
There are 3 of us living on site, one who works another job full time and one not in the best physical condition, so I carry the brunt of the physical labor. We have volunteers and apprentices, sometimes interns from ag school programs that help out. If we ever do pay someone, it is normally a friend or someone we meet at the market. Most farms use Mexican laborers.

>"How much would an American earn working on a farm?"
Depends on the farm. A big part of the sustainable movement is paying workers a fair wage. We pay $10/hour when we have paid workers.

>"Any chance of a farmer or worker earning enough to live comfortably?"
Depends on your definition of comfortable, but in my opinion, absolutely.

Where do you start if you have no previous agricultural knowledge?

>>26031
Thank you so much Farmer OP =]!

I think this thread should be archived!

Do you accept "apprentices"? I'd like to live on such a farm for a while and see how it is. I would pay in labor and get paid in food from said farm.

>>25976
>"is your operation for profit?"
Yeah, and most of the profit goes right back into the farm to grow.

>"what vegetables do you consistently/primarily produce?"
We do best with greens. A lot of lettuce, spinach, kale, and chard. We do a wide variety of produce though. We try to do more exotic veggies or varieties.

>"was receiving your organic certification difficult?""
Very. The application takes a good 30-40 hours itself to fill out, on top of keeping diligent records and having a farm plan. We have to have two separate inspections for the crops and for the chickens. It costs a lot too, but the local department of ag pays up to $750 of the cost, so we end up paying about $250 a year for both, which will increase as profits increase.

>>25991
>"Do you sell your organic crops as well, or is this purely a self sufficient thing?"
Yeah, we sell produce, it's a big part of our operation.

>"How large is your land and how much in taxes?"
We're sitting on around 40 acres, and as far as taxes for just the property go, I couldn't tell you. The taxes in total were a couple thousand dollars, but I don't have any clue what kind of breaks we got for agriculture, or how much of that were for cars/equipment/other assets on top of the land and the house.

>>26001
>"Where get seed potatoes?"
There's actually a local organic seed potato producer near here with some nice facilities.

>"For that matter where do you recommend getting your seed crops in general?"
Johnny's Seeds, Seeds of Change, or just a google search for "___ organic seeds" to get the rare stuff we want to grow.

How much money do you make?

Man threads like these give me hope. Everyone thinks I've gone crazy for wanting to do something like this, parents asked whether I needed to see a psychologist...

>>26013
>"How hard would it be to just drop my job and go live by myself somewhere as a hermit? Preferably using some kind of electricity generator such as those huge fans or solar panels and farming my own food. How long would it take for me to settle and have everything up and running? And more importantly, is it possible and how much money would it take?"

Possible, sure, probable, not really. It would take years of upstart work to get a self-sufficient system running. Wind or solar power are extremely expensive and take a lot of knowledgable upkeep. The closest I've seen anyone come to being able to do this, they had a decent amount of seed money, and spend about 5 summers living on their site getting it set up for self-sufficiency.

Depending on where you are, without the few acres of land you would need, it would probably take a couple years to have it up and running, and $10,000-$30,000 for the simplest of equipment, without the renewable energy sources. It's very hard to do. Producing food for consumers, you have access to a lot of grants and cost-share programs you don't if you just want to do it for yourself.

>>26039
>"Where do you start if you have no previous agricultural knowledge?"
There are some great agricultural programs at local colleges as well as big universities. I never studied agriculture formally though. I read a LOT of books and did a lot of independent research before and after diving in. iTunes U has a lot of free programs, videos, and lectures for agriculture. Finding a kindred spirit to research with you is best. It can be daunting. And then, of course, nothing beats experience, but it's hard to get an apprenticeship on a farm without having formally studied agriculture.

>>26050
>"Do you accept "apprentices"? I'd like to live on such a farm for a while and see how it is. I would pay in labor and get paid in food from said farm."
We don't have the means to keep another person on the farm right now, but we do accept day apprentices if the person and timing is right. We have two ag students that come out twice a week right now. Go to a local farmers' market and ask around there, see if you can go volunteer and get some experience before going in for a full apprenticeship.

>>26133
Well that certainly was a slap back to reality. Thanks for that.

>produces organic

Stopped reading there, lost all respect for anyone that uses this marketing bullshit and tries to claim it's 'better.'

The USDA has been inspecting your crops for well over 50 years. Organics is bullshit, especially if you're using Monsanto seed or other stuff.

Over that past 50 years, food quality on all soil-grown test crops across multiple test fields ('organic' and non-organic) shows a steady decline in nutritional content.

The study was published in 2005, University of Texas, Austin.

Much more sustainable systems are of the kind I produce, where in 1/8 of an acre I can produce what an entire acre produces, with anywhere from 30-99% less water usage, upwards of 70% less nutrient usage, and it can be totally solar-powered. And it produces vegetables with often-higher nutritional content, just by using sea salt nutrients.

Pic related. Check my results versus guideline levels.

Superior cleaner technology. Real science. No bullshit marketing. Better food quality.

ALL DAY LONG.

aquaponicsguy here. just archived this badass thread for myself. thanks OP, you started a great discussion and got people talking about sustainable ag. I really appreciated this thread.

if ANY posters in this thread are interested in aquaponics or sustainable/urban agriculture check out:

http://wakeup-world.com/2011/07/14/how-1-million-pounds-of-organic-food-can-be-produced-on-3-acres/

/diy/ is a pretty sweet board and I look forward to lurking on it whenever I have down time. let's keep the traffic high people.

>>26176
Does it even fucking matter weather or not he used the word organic?

He's providing some awesome information about farm upkeep. It's up to the person that follows his suggestion to make their own fucking food.

>>26176
Oh look, it's this wanker again.

Superiority based on claims of yield per acre, a measurement which doesn't apply to indoor growing, and nothing useful to contribute.

>>26176
for chrissake, you've been posting that same screenshot bragging about your shitty hydroponic crap in at least three threads.

Yes, there are loopholes in in the term Organic. No, that does not mean every farmer who uses the label exploits loopholes. You have shitty faulty logic.

>>26114
>Man threads like these give me hope. Everyone thinks I've gone crazy for wanting to do something like this, parents asked whether I needed to see a psychologist...
I got lucky to have this opportunity. Follow your heart and intuition and it will lead you to where you want to be.

>>26121
>"How much money do you make?"
It varies. I pay myself spending money based on profits we make. After all costs are paid for, what's left over gets talked about and distributed to where it needs to go. Finance payments (mortgage, equipment, vehicles) and feed for animals first, repairs and materials second, miscellaneous stuff third, and then I'll get a little spending money if there's some left over, the rest into savings. Living costs are minimal since 70% of my diet I produce myself, and I trade for the rest usually. Sometimes I'll get just $50 a week spending money, sometimes I can take a couple hundred. I don't really need it. I sometimes don't spend money for weeks on end. All finances stay within the farm system and group, it works out nicely.

>>26188
>>26202
>>26207
Haha.

Go back to your plants
>>26176
at least they like you, right.

>>26176
Kindly fuck off.

I'd like to set up a large green house that can run year round. I want it to be a hydroponic system that allows people to "pick their own" crops. Would something like this even be possible to get USDA organic certified?

Also, how big a greenhouse do you think would be needed for this type of system and how costly would it be? I want it to be big enough so when people come picking everything isn't picked clean, but I don't want it so big that I'll never be able to afford it. Would something like this qualify for grants?

>>26212
Are you a vegan or do you eat meat?

If you eat meat, how do you kill your animals?

Is there a humane way to do this?

>>26226
Generally with a sharp object.

>>26235
but slitting an animals throat is clean, but seems to be so horrific for the animal =[

>>26212
>Finance payments (mortgage, equipment, vehicles)
How long've you been at it?
Do you plan to buy equipment/vehicles outright when you can afford it?

I will try and put this thread back on its rails.

Considering raising a small meat animal, mainly for meat, just for myself. Should I go with rabbit or chicken? Any advice?

>>26176

that's a real cool story, bro.

your lettuce's lab analysis results have truly secured your rightful place in the annals of badass history.

now why don't you share some information or tips, instead of waltzing in and acting like you won some non-existent contest?

0/10.

>>26202

>ignores all facts that show that indoor horticulture, in vertical farms, is superior, less wasteful, more sustainable, and better for the environment.

Gotta love it.

The ONLY reason you certify organic is to be certified to charge a higher price premium that 'all-natural' could never command.

>>26188

Yes, it does matter. Organic farming has also been causing major disruptions in sustainable agriculture because of the demand and shipping logistics. Something every organic farmer neglects to think about, despite 50+ years of USDA study showing just how bad it's slowly getting.

Again, you only certify 'organic' so you can claim a higher price. NOTHING MORE.

>>26216

They must like me.

>>26219

No, I shall not. This kind of bullshit is NOT what DIY is all about. DIY is about fact, not marketing bullshit.

NO SUCH THING AS AN ORGANIC FARM, as anything alive is organic.

Most any ORGANIC BIOCHEMIST with an actual education will tell you this.

>>26176
Seems like you're projecting an air of superiority onto me. Your tone is hilariously aggressive. Calm down, friend. Sounds like you're a bit butthurt about the organic standards. For us, it is an exercise in transparency, not a marketing technique.

What exactly about your system doesn't meet organic standards, and how does that support its sustainability?

This thread is goin' down.

>>26220

No, because USDA 'organic' marketing bullshit ONLY applies to soil.

But that will probably change in a couple of years due to lobbyists fucking everything up.

>>26244

I did give advice. Anyone that focuses on 'organics' is not qualified to be trying to teach anything about 'sustainability' at all. If you listen, fine, go ahead. Sure, you'll get okay crops, but over time, your land is going to become barren unless you add more material.

That material has to come from SOMEWHERE, and local is almost 100% never the option.

>>26264
>No, because USDA 'organic' marketing bullshit ONLY applies to soil.

You lose all credibility right there. It is much more than just the soil. NO synthetics can be used in production, from fertilizers, to pesticideds, to herbicides. You also must follow a strict crop rotation schedule. You have to maintain records of what you do, where you get your materials, what seed you use. You have to provide receipts for everything.

You know nothing about organic certification, yet you bash it so hard. Considering this fact, I'd say you're just a troll.

>>26252
>For us, it is an exercise in transparency, not a marketing technique.

>words ripped straight out of a marketing manual.

I'm not mad at you, but I can't trust you if you're that foolish to go and certify 'organic.'

Look, you don't even know yourself that organics ONLY applies to soil. My systems are purely hydroponics, you can't get an organic certification for it. That's FIRMLY established in USDA regulations.

You *DO* read those regulations front and back, yes?

>>26264
>"I did give advice. Anyone that focuses on 'organics' is not qualified to be trying to teach anything about 'sustainability' at all. If you listen, fine, go ahead. Sure, you'll get okay crops, but over time, your land is going to become barren unless you add more material.

That material has to come from SOMEWHERE, and local is almost 100% never the option."
You never heard of organic supplements? Feather mill, bone mill, natural phospurus? How about compost? How about manure? How about cover cropping? And responsible crop rotation? And using permaculture systems with mixed-husbandry livestock systems to return nutrients to the soil?

Do you know nothing about real sustainable agriculture?

>>26273
>>26264
>>26248
You must be real popular with your coworkers.

They share your views, they're working on it afterall.
So ya'll get along great. Don't you.

>>26270

What, son?

http://www.nal.usda.gov/afsic/pubs/faq/BuyOrganicFoodsB.shtml

You want to repeat what about me not knowing the certification?

Organic farming practices deal directly with soil quality and care. Relevant sections of the regulatory text include:

Title 7: Agriculture - Part 205 - National Organic Program -

§205.203 Soil fertility and crop nutrient management practice standard)

§205.205 Crop rotation practice standard

§205.206 Crop pest, weed, and disease management practice standard

Try again. You seriously didn't read the regulations, as I suspected.

>>26278

/argument

>>26273
>Look, you don't even know yourself that organics ONLY applies to soil.

So you're saying, when the inspector comes out and inspects everything, they don't' check all of our receipts, they don't look through our equipment, they don't take crop samples as well as soil samples, they don't require a farm plan, they don't make us sign and affidavit saying we have never sprayed synthetic pesticide and herbicide?

Because all of this happens.

We've got a cornball office asspie over here >>26291

You ever see the sun champ?

its the winter though guys, not much farming to do

>>26310
>"its the winter though guys, not much farming to do"
Livestock doesn't go away in the winter, and we have high tunnels up for winter production. Winter is actually busier because management is more intensive than in the easier seasons.

>>26248
Organic means (is supposed to mean loopholes aside) that a plant was not grown with pesticides and is not GMO.

It's also a good thing that hydroponically grown foods cannot be certified organic, because plants simply do not grow that way in the real world.

I think you're just a crappy troll.

>post lettuce nutrient analysis everywhere
>no information to share
1/10

>>26318
>It's also a good thing that hydroponically grown foods cannot be certified organic, because plants simply do not grow that way in the real world.

You might want to go read a plant book, sometime. I suggest focusing on the Amazon, where multiple plants grow EXCLUSIVELY like that in nature.

>>26332
*most food crops

Happy, aspie?

>>26306

>you ever see the sun?

Every day. On the roof of my research facility. Sometimes it's through the roof mounted sensors, sometimes with my own eyes.

Depends on how often I have to travel to the UK, since my research facilities are almost entirely 100% remote-controlled.

Do you ever leave your mother's basement? Have you even obtained your own house, yet?

>>26332
Are you butthurt because you can't get your hydroponics certified organic?

I wouldn't disagree with that. If you use natural supplements and all organic systems, then I personally think you should be able to certify organic.

I also don't disagree with loopholes in organic certification, which is why you should shop at a local farmers' market and know your farmer, visit the farm, and get involved with your food. An organic vendor at a small market and organic produce in the grocery store are different beasts.

>>26317
>management is more intensive
that may be true, but what can you grow? do you run heaters, hightunnels or not the cold is going to kill plants. i know nothing about this, so if you can tell me more i would appreciate it. barring livestock, what could you actually grow. you may be ok until the end of november, but dec jan feb your out of luck i would think

>>26340
I think you're just severely butthurt you can't get your hydroponic crops certified as organic, so you come here to troll and declare organic crops a scam.

In my country, hydroponics, aquaponics, etc....can easily be organic.

>>26318
>It's also a good thing that hydroponically grown foods cannot be certified organic, because plants simply do not grow that way in the real world.
Most people who care about organic food don't care if they were grown hydroponically. They care about pesticides and such. So why is it a "good thing" that an efficient way of growing foods that doesn't involve genetically engineering them to be extra pretty can't be recognized as such?

I'm not the lettuce person, btw.

>>26354
Watch out, anon. He's going to wipe your country off the map.

Hey, angry anon can you please give some advice and some details on what you do then, please? If you're so bent on trying to persuade then at least back it up. Geez.

>>26338

Actually, again, many food crops DO grow like that in the world.

So yes, I am happy, or in fact, happier. Ignorance makes me smile. I smile when I'm happy and amused.

You want to see real sustainability?

http://tinypic.com/player.php?v=2r5gleg&s=7

Grass, greens, green beans, doesn't matter. We can do it using far less water, far less nutrients, FAR LESS ENERGY FROM START TO FINISH, can be totally solar-powered.

There you go - look at it. Copy it. MAKE USE OF IT. That's the future of your food production as arable land gets shorter in supply every year.

And learn about SEA-90, which is the most sustainable nutrient on the planet.

>Most hydroponic fertilizers are a premium grade of water soluble fertilizer. Most of these traditional hydroponic fertilizers (often called nutrients) are not on the list of approved fertilizers for the USDA organic certification. There are, however, some companies who have developed organic-hydroponic fertilizers that can be certified organic under the USDA rules.

I, for one, appreciate how lettuce-anon is not resorting to name calling.

I don't eat vegetables but I would like to have a small farm. What should I do with them/how will I know when they are ripe for picking?

What do you use to keep bugs away?

>>26364
>hydroponic
>certified organic under the USDA rules

>>26352

Learn about SEA-90. I could get my crops certified 100% organic. I don't, because it's just another BS way of saying 'all natural.'

Love how you assume when you don't even have the full breadth of information. That's intelligent, I must smile more.

>>26350
>"that may be true, but what can you grow? do you run heaters, hightunnels or not the cold is going to kill plants. i know nothing about this, so if you can tell me more i would appreciate it. barring livestock, what could you actually grow. you may be ok until the end of november, but dec jan feb your out of luck i would think"

In this region, going into January, most greens can survive, especially the hardy ones (like kale). We use no electricity in the high-tunnels. We put 5 gallon black water buckets in there to absorb heat during, the day and it releases it at night. All of the leafy crops are fine if they don't get frost-bitten, and some are even better after a bit of frost. It doesn't get below the teens around here. From mid January to February, what you have in the ground is what you can sell, but that's not because of the cold, it's because of the lack of sunlight. So we make sure we have a lot of carrots, beets, radishes, turnips, and other things ready. Also, we make sure we have a good supply of lettuce to last us through. Most of the other greens will just stop growing though.

The high tunnels work very well to keep things from freezing, and on extra cold nights we throw some floating row covers over everything too. That, with the black buckets of water, and so far we've had nothing freeze and die on us.

>>26340
You only see the sun when you travel to the UK???

Your facility is in the UK and yet you're claiming to be uncertified organic because you don't use soil?

>>26358
You dumb piece of shit. The majority of the food crops we eat today did not grow in water in their native habitats. Is that clear enough for you, aspie?

>>26340
Does your dad take you on field trips to his bosses research facility? It must be part of their office asspie donation fund!

>>26369
>I don't eat vegetables

Not ever? What the hell do you live on?

>>26372

"can be certified"

Key words - can be.

But none hold up.

The buffers and preservatives aren't mentioned. That strips it of all organic qualifications.

>>26367

I don't need to call names. People are already well aware which name suits them best. This is why they resort to the name-calling and meme-spouting of 'umad'

Nope, not mad, just educated with multiple degrees.

>>26369
>"What should I do with them/how will I know when they are ripe for picking?"

It's different for every crop.

>"What do you use to keep bugs away?"
We use beneficial insects, beneficial plants, and a crop rotation system which minimizes disease and pests. Sometimes we'll let chickens around the crops (not in) to minimize the bugs getting in. There are some natural sprays which are certified organic which we use in dire situations, like when an entire crop is going to be destroyed. We only had to use this once this year in a very small area.

As long a you contain a pest problem and nip it in the bud, it normally won't be a problem with all of the permaculture techniques I just listed.

>>26405

I have multiple degrees. It means nothing in the end. You're still derailing a wonderful thread with horseshit.

If OP is still here I have a question.
I'm assuming your farm produces a organic waste and you compost it. Is this correct? If so, how do you go about doing it in such large quantities?
I'm just curious.

>>26391

Yes, I only see sun when I go to the UK. See, SoCal has this NASTY thing called snog and haze which tends to block out the beautiful sun, especially here in the 'Valley of Fire.'

+1 to you for not being able to think critically. Of course I step outside, otherwise my tobacco and brugmansias would die from neglect.

Everyone calling aspie is trying to infer emotion from emotionless text. Makes me wonder who is the real aspie.

>>26417
>"I'm assuming your farm produces a organic waste and you compost it. Is this correct? If so, how do you go about doing it in such large quantities?"

We built several very large composters which we rotate. They are basically just big sunken dumpsters with arms going through which we can turn to mix the compost. We need more compost than we produce (we turn a lot of our organic matter directly back into the soil), but there's a lot of livestock people around here that will happily give us as much manure as we need.

>>26432

"We need more compost than we produce"

That isn't exactly sustainable, brother.

But nothing is. Thermodynamics pretty much guarantees this, despite the lettucefag's ill-chosen words, he's right.

No real such thing. Maybe for a local lifetime, but in the end run, no way.

>>26420
Pretty sure your hyperbolic and condescending tone gives your argument emotion. It also detracts from your argument. I don't understand where all this heated emotion is coming from either. You prefer hydroponic systems to organic - fine. That's pretty much that isn't it.

>>26443
Sustainable doesn't mean no input from other systems. All of the manure we use we get from sustainable cattle farmers.

What, does your lettuce give you the nutrients you need to grow lettuce? That's amazing.

>>26451

But how much fuel are you using to transport that manure?

That's in no way sustainable.

How far does your meat and produce go? If out of your local area, that is most certainly not going towards sustainability, as you're removing material from the local environment. And if you have to import more material (topsoil, nutrients, etc) then that even further adds to the unsustainability of the system.

>>26443
No one ever said he wasn't right. He is completely off-topic because of one detail about OPs post.

That make him an abrasive asshole and arrogant cunt. Remember that crazy bitch that got killed in Schindler's List, he's that bitch.

>>26464
I'm pretty sure your magic seawater mineral packets don't teleport themselves to your shed either. It says that they are from the Pacific ocean.

>>26444

Again, inferring a tone from factual statements.

Ah well. I guess being a research director is bound to piss off many ill-educated people.

It always does.

I smile even more in the face of your ignorance.

>>26476
>implying it couldn't be derived from any other ocean or estuary or tributary or delta flood plain or alluvial flood plain that has any decent mineral concentration

Which would be most everywhere, minus the deserts and high mountains. Even the Antarctic has such resources.

>>26420
People are calling you an aspie because you act like a fucking retard in every damn thread you post in.

You have the effect of a good troll, but no-one'd believe you if you went all 'lolololitrollu'. You're just a regular dickhead.

>>26464
>But how much fuel are you using to transport that manure?
No more than 15 miles away, some use bio-diesel in all of their vehicles (not to be confused with corn ethonol). The fuel needed to transport this manure is minimal, and if it's bio-diesel, it's renewable.

>That's in no way sustainable.
Sustainable agriculture is about minimizing environmental impact, not creating a completely closed-system. Not all sustainable systems reduce environmental impact to 0, but sustainable agriculture is a rather new field being studied, so systems will improve vastly as research continues.

>"How far does your meat and produce go?"
I said earlier, we don't sell outside of 50 miles from the farm. There are plenty of markets we can direct market our product to. Customers buy from us directly.

>If out of your local area, that is most certainly not going towards sustainability, as you're removing material from the local environment.
As much material which can be sustained within the farm, is.

>"And if you have to import more material (topsoil, nutrients, etc) then that even further adds to the unsustainability of the system."
Everything we use is locally and sustainably produced.

Like I said, sustainable systems are new and they aren't perfect yet, but the field needs pioneers. And if you look at the environmental impact of our farm vs. a conventional farm producing the same amount of food, it pales in comparison. Eventually, we can stop ammending our soil completely, and cut off bringing in nutrients. No soil is perfect right off the bat, but if you work to make it that way, you can stop amending it and just use responsible rotation systems, livestock permaculture techniques, and on-site compost. Hopefully we'll be there in 5 or so years. It's not easy getting perfectly healthy soil.

>>26467

No, I'm quite on-topic, but your emotions are allowing your mind to be clouded, and you fail to see the simplest of connections between my argument and the subject at hand.

I wonder how many of you are even out of high school?

>>26477
Except that I was inferring the tone from how you framed the facts.

Relevent to growing is preserving. Two of the oldest and most popular ways are fruit preserves and pickling. Gonna start with how 2 jam.

One benefit of doing this is being able to enjoy the fruits of your labour all year round.

>>26503

>>26499
>derailing forever

>>26505

is chanarchive not accepting /diy/ threads or what cuz i keep getting an error message

>>26518
not what.

>>26512

>>26512
Do you have one for apple/pear butter?

>>26518
i think chanarchive is derping everywhere tbh

I think it's funny that lettucefag tries to call out others on "marketing bullshit" yet his website has terms like "Hydro channel"

>>26493

Sustainability will mean to stop relying upon soil.

By the way, just a side note - last sustainable farm in Chino Hills was done so well that it produced GREAT crops and such, and didn't need fertilizer.

It had to be shut down because of the sheer amount of urea in the soil, making it completely unfit for humans to tread upon.

That means your 'sustainable' farm only has at most a couple of generations before it's useless and unfit for human use, and it will take quite a while for that to be depleted back to levels acceptable for humans.

Sustainable Agriculture started in the 50s. This was a top of the line farm, too. In fact, it was so top of the line that most of your techniques used now were things they did.

I pray you don't push yourself into the same position as that farm did. Couple of generations of prosperity, then BAM, all gone, land too toxic for humans to manually work. Couldn't even pave over it and put down a housing development, it was that toxic from the sheer overload of nutrients from the attempts of making permaculture.

You can pickle almost anything

>>26542

That's because it is a hydro channel. Has your brain stopped functioning? This isn't some POS PVC piping that you make from stuff at Home Depot, this is food-grade HDPE channel specifically made for food production.

There is no marketing, just raw fact and science.

Bet you still think light intensity for plants should be measured in candela or lumens, too.

>>26544
>implying sustainable agriculture hasn't made any progress since the '50s, much less in the past 10, even 5 years.

Bro do you even permaculture.

>>26538

>>26544
Oh dear, I wonder how humans managed to farm for hundreds of years without H20Farm. After all, those techniques were so unsustainable.

>>26558
>because it just is

Well then that's why food is organic. Because it is organic. It's not marketing bullshit. Same line of reasoning as you. Problem?

>>26572
>Oh dear, I wonder how humans managed to farm for hundreds of years without H20Farm. After all, those techniques were so unsustainable.

In reality, they weren't very sustainable and they did a lot of harm to the land. But lettucefag has proved he knows next to nothing about sustainable agriculture so I wouldn't even bother arguing with him. He's obviously a trolololol.

>>26580
I would disagree. Crop rotation, alternating planting rows, manure fertilizer, etc. Worked fine for hundreds of years.

>>26578

Organic Chemist here.

Only definition of organic is the one we made - contains carbon.

Period.

And we will be forcing the USDA to remove it, because the man is right, it was usurped for marketing. It is quickly eroding proper facts with nonsense, or 'bullshit' as the other man says.

How to grow herbs indoors

>>26176

> Has no sense of tact or social etiquette
> Claims people are getting mad at him because they are ignorant, and he is a shining beacon of truth
> Wonders why people call him an aspie

Stay classy, lettucefag

All about Peppers

1/3

>>26589
It definitely minimized damage, but those techniques are basically what lettucefag was talking about with the farm in the 50's which killed the soil. It works for a few generations before the land is ruined.

Permaculture is a field which tries to mimic natural systems to produce food. Plants and animals have lived harmoniously since they existed, and permaculture seeks to revive that harmony. Observing how ecosystems sustain themselves and mimicing that in food production is the only real way to keep the Earth in it's natural state without depleting it.

And despite what lettucefag wants you to believe, it's possible, and permaculture is a huge merging field which we work hard to implement into our production.

>>26610

2/3

>>26614

3/3

>>26601
>"And we will be forcing the USDA to remove it, because the man is right, it was usurped for marketing. It is quickly eroding proper facts with nonsense, or 'bullshit' as the other man says."

I would support that. Like I said, we use it as an exercise for transparency. How can customers trust you don't use synthetics if you just say that you don't? How do they know you use natural ways to take care of pests? Our philosophy is transparency, and the organic label lets people know that we are inspected regularly to meet certain standards.

So call it whatever you want, just QCS Certified would be okay with me, or even get rid of federal certification and let a private company set their own standards to be inspected. It has been abused for marketing and many organic farms are irresponsible, but that doesn't mean that transparency shouldn't be enforced.

All about Tomatoes

1/3

>>26629

2/3

>>26611
You should read Farmers of Forty Centuries. Peoples from many nations have been able to keep the same fields fertile for centuries without depleting it. People have always been practicing permaculture. Only recently what has traditionally been considered farming, been given a fancy name like permaculture.

>>26572

Hydroponics has been known since the hanging gardens of Babylon. Soil farming longer than that.

But companies like this mans are the future, not some soil farm.

Seeing his videos (after finally spending almost an hour reading all of his drivel and trying to make sense of some mis-spoken nonsense of his) he in fact does have a superior solution, by magnitudes of order.

>>26589

Ahem. Dust Bowl.

>>26580

You are unwise to consider him a troll. He's obviously got real sustainability methods down, to the point where half of your current methods of 'sustainability' are no longer necessary.

1. No need for soil rotation, crop rotation. That fodder system on the left in his video could easily pump out acres of grass in a week if that whole place was dedicated to it. And no light to produce still green, not-sickly looking fodder grass that isn't white after day 4?

2. I hear some pumps. This might be the only issue getting things controlled.

3. For 8 days, those are some very large lettuce plants.

He does put off attitude in the end with his 'SCIENCE' spat, but he is most certainly knowledgable.

>>26633

3/3

>>26627

>How can customers trust you don't use synthetics if you just say that you don't?

Truth in advertising laws. We've had them for decades. Duh? Same way my claims for my tech doesn't get popped, because it's true and anyone is free to walk on in and inspect it for themselves.

THAT is what real transparency is. Not that some government numbskull comes in and says "okay" but other people from the public can come in, see everything top to bottom, and know that they're being told the truth.

Exercise in transparency. Bah. Openness = transparency, not certification.

>Plants and animals have lived harmoniously since they existed, and permaculture seeks to revive that harmony.

Okay, I'll try to not be a dick here, but do you not see the absolute nonsense in that? You've introduced non-native species to an area and you expect it to be harmonious with everything else around?

>>26638
Can be the future. Are they certainly the future? Hard to say.

The dust bowl does not prove that soil farming cannot work. It merely proves that certain American farmers are uneducated and fail at farming. A massive screwup does not prove that the model is wrong when it has been proven to work with the proper techniques. Those American farmers simply failed to employ the proper techniques.

Yes, it is sustainable, but lettucefag is a troll because this is probably the third thread about farming he's waltzed in, posted that same lettuce analysis. He provides no real information other than links to the seawater nutrient packets.

>>26638
Despite any validity behind his words about his own systems, he's been very vocal about several things which he's later proved that he knew next to nothing about, and is obviously just trolling them because they aren't his.

Mushroom Grow Houses

>>26658

I've also been posting pictures of crops I've been growing myself in every one of those thread, if you haven't been paying attention, fool. Peppers, Beans (in this thread, in fact,) and yet you claim there's no evidence.

Give me a break.

>>26647
Yeah, it works in theory. But I know multiple direct marketers who lie to their customers about using synthetics. Several even market "SYNTHETIC FREE PRODUCE," tell their customers they're all natural, then turn around and talk about how they carpet their potato field with Roundup. There's no transparency in that.

more mushrooms

>>26653
>Okay, I'll try to not be a dick here, but do you not see the absolute nonsense in that? You've introduced non-native species to an area and you expect it to be harmonious with everything else around?

It's proven to be effective with responsible and diligent stewardship. Just because something isn't native doesn't mean it can't thrive with the local ecosystem. Your lettuce isn't native to your hydroponic system, and it does well, doesn't it? Your point is moot.

>>26601
It's so obvious you're lettucefag.
The tone, the sentence length, the format... you're lettucefag.

>>26658

The Dust bowl is actually a perfect demonstration, as many farmers DID practice crop rotation, and try to keep things natural and on the land, but such EXTENSIVE agricultural issues, such as overfertilizing, and more, killed off the land. Kudzu could survive in such high (or low, depending upon area) concentrations of nutrients, and it grew rapidly no matter what which is why it was chosen as the controlling plant.

>>26660

I'm failing to see where he's not knowing what he's talking about. I read his links, I've seen his videos. Pictures could be faked, but the videos likely not. The links I seriously doubt he has any control over, and if he does, help us all.

That USDA claim about organics dealing with soil? Right there in the link below the regulations he quoted from the link he was quoting from, though I had to search because the site had been updated and the link was no longer valid. It's a shame he can't give us direct links.

Anyways, my point stands. If he had no clue what he was talking about, he couldn't so quickly link directly (or at least attempt to) to authoritative documentation.

Well, still waiting on the USDA 50 year food decline study. I hadn't heard of that.

>>26678
Even if a customer is diligent about where his food comes from, how would he or she possibly know that's happening?

>>26707

You asked you white-knight. Here it is: http://www.jacn.org/content/23/6/669.full.pdf

>>26708
That's sort of the point. Being randomly inspected, having your crops and soil tested, having your expense receipts audited, and having your grounds looked over thoroughly by an inspector helps consumers know the practices of the producer. A consumer getting involved and visiting the grounds, participating in the cultivation, and getting to know the farmer only adds another level to that transparency.

And can people still trick inspectors? Sure, but the inspection process is altered to make up for gaps (as long as special interest groups don't alter it to their benefit).

>>26707
I'm pretty sure it was caused mainly by drought. A Wikipedia source says the same.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dust_Bowl
"The phenomenon was caused by severe drought coupled with decades of extensive farming WITHOUT crop rotation, fallow fields, cover crops or other techniques to prevent wind erosion."

>>26672
I never said there was no evidence. I simply said you provide little helpful information about farming. You just crash into threads about farming and shit on anything that does not follow your hydroponic farm model. Your pictures aren't anything special and can hardly be considered helpful. Indoor hydroponic farming is nothing new. As far as techniques, resources, tools you provide little if anything. OP has been very helpful answering questions about farming. Basically you're here just to beat your chest. That is why you are rather obnoxious. Not because your hydroponic farm is bad. Hopefully you have the humility to realize this.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/04/11/indoor-farming-sunless-food_n_847462.html

>>26696

>implying I'm the white-knighting faggot

Sorry, but no, son. Tons of people on 4chan type the same way. Go visit /g/ or /sci/ for an example.

It's called a proper education. Something most Farmers do not have.

So this thread actually has me paranoid.

I like to grow tomato, carrot, squash and crap. Lemon trees, berry bushes. Just a bunch of silly, small things.

How do I keep my yard from becoming a turd-bowl wasteland, or an overfertilized urea exclusion zone?
Also, how do I find out of my veggies are yielding a cool nutrient amount? And how would I maximize it?

Growing indoors (drug free edition)

>>26739
I wouldn't exactly call your writing eloquent, really.
And proper education tends to lead to that.

>>26707
Farmers that caused the Dust Bowl hardly used sustainable techniques. They were basically trying to pump out as much wheat as possible. Those sorts of droughts happen all the time, and there's a reason it hasn't happened again, because it is avoidable. Especially using permaculture techniques, which would have left the local ecosystem intact enough to prevent what happened.

Also, I didn't follow his link regarding organic certification. I am very familiar with the certification process because I go through it every year. And they check far more than my soil. Like I said, it's like a full farm audit. I also have to have a farm plan which lays out what I'm going to do for the next year.

On top of that, he obviously knows nothing about sustainable agriculture as it is studied at every major university and many smaller colleges. And, obviously nothing about permaculture either.

>>26747
oops forgot file
1/2

>>26763

2/2

>>26735

LOL plantlab, as always 4 years too late to the party.

Let me guess, they're still running with insane amounts of diodes - yup, all over their pictures. What a waste.

I was cool with sustainable and all. But I won't sit here and simply allow any bullshit about organics. Nope.jfuckinpeg.

Yanno what? I'm just going to continue to smile while the ignorance spreads in the thread. It's already hit pandemic levels. Might as well just get more entertainment from it.

>raging jerkass gets called an asspie

Aspie =/= this shit. It's got about as much to do with being a cock mongling faggot as it does with say, organic farming.

Also
>get dirt patch
>throw silverbeet seeds on it
>just you try to stop that shit growing

>>26762

Cotton and tobacco were much worse than wheat. No dust bowl hit very far into the deep south or eastern area of the continent, and those areas had been farmed much more extensively than the Midwest by the time the Dust Bowl happened.

How to start an indoor veggie garden

>>26774

>spray black walnut extract on the ground

>watch nothing grow because black walnut extract is a major inhibitor and cellular division retardant.

I could stop it growing no problem. You should've learned that in 7th grade science class.

>>26789
It was the combination of a common region drought and irresponsible farming techniques. The south and east do not have droughts of that nature. The drought wasn't uncommon, it just happened to be coupled with land stripped bare by the recent greedy farmers to the area.

>>26696

I am rather unhappy to see that your rising anger is leading you to confuse me with a foul-mouthed person.

That was almost insulting, but forgivable.

>>26795
Lettucefag yet again falling face first over implicit language.

>>26802

Actually, the south DOES have that drought problem. Starting in Alabama, going almost to Florida, with the exception of about 50 miles within the Gulf. Precipitation levels have been falling. Georgia is fighting for water right now in some communities.

>>26745
Y'know England?
The 'green and pleasant land'?
Y'know how it's been farmed for the last 8,000 years?

Not a dustbowl.

>>26804

Hey fuckwit, he did say "Try to stop that shit from growing"

I gave the answer.

Or would you have rather me said "KILL IT WITH FIRE!"

>>26817

England has the same declining food quality issue, and their study was longer, from the 1930s to the 1990s.

They also can't go dustbowl because it's ALWAYS WET, to use a generalization.

>>26812
It wasn't a normal southern-style drought, it as a once-in-a-few-decades years-long drought which the south just doesn't see.

Growing Tea

All about Egg Makers

>>26818
I'd have rather you understood informal fucking speech.

>>26773
And yet OP's crops will yield a price premium thanks to the organic label. What a pity for you.

Anyway, guys:

How do I prevent my personal garden from declining food quality?

>>26818
Actually, not only am I skeptical that your plan would work (because of the following), but a friend of mine once accidentally set his chard on fire. It rose like a phoenix.

>>26840
>And yet OP's crops will yield a price premium thanks to the organic label. What a pity for you.

The only increase of price we have on our produce is due to the extra labor to stay certified, which is minimal, and sometimes even non-existent when we have a surplus. Some things we can even sell for less than grocery store non-organic, like arugula and radishes.

>>26841
>How do I prevent my personal garden from declining food quality?

Cover cropping is not just for agriculturalists, you could do the same thing with some responsible crop rotation. How intensive the rotation would be would depend on your space limitations. You could also get a backyard flock of chickens to help fertilize the soil. Also, start a household compost and you should get more than enough fertilizer to keep your soil healthy.

How to make cheese

>>26840

Someone sure isn't thinking about cost efficiency/scaleability/production capability.

Brains are required for this kind of thing, you know.

postan in a trip vs anon thread

>>26860

Okay, at first I was rather interested in your stuff and saw potential in it.

Now I just see a man with more brains and attitude than humility. Such a pity.

>>26865
Never realized how stressful arguing with anon could be. HOW MANY IGNORANT POMPOUS DOUCHE BAGS ARE THERE?! MANY OR JUST ONE VOCAL NOXIOUS TROLOLOL?!

>>26820
>England has the same declining food quality issue

No, the nutritional value of vegetables & fruit has remained the same, but been spread across more examples. Judgement on yield in weight has resulted in the encouragement of producing more Kg of -whatever- from the same area. The amount of nutrients per Kg has therefore fallen, but in total has actually increased.

Yes, that's right....soil is better now than ever, especially in the last few decades with regular soil analysis becoming the norm.

tl;dr - your claim of declining soil quality is utter utter bullshit.

>>26874

I dunno, I browse with forced anon on so you all look the same to me.

Curing and Drying bird meat

Are you guys finding these useful?

>>26860
What about replicability? Genuinely asking, is that really not something you care about?

>>26874
Just one I think.

>>26865
No, it's an 'everyone' vs one socially retarded fuckhead.
That the tripfag involved isn't the socially retarded fuckhead is unusual yes.

>>26872

Whoa dude, you haven't contributed in any real way to informing people how to grow food.

Here's this guy sharing his experience in running an organic certified farm, its inner workings and you come in with nothing but barks and bites.

What's worst is that you find it fitting to insult people around you while claiming you are not.

Does it honestly make you feel better to pretend to be better than others on the internet over trying to genuinely help? No one is gaining anything from you except bile.

Damn man I've been on 4chan for years so I gotta credit you, it takes a real ass to get through to me.

lettucefag, what useful information on DIY farming have you contributed aside from a few generic pictures of your indoor farm, a photo of lettuce nutrient analysis photo and a link to some seawater nutrition packet site?

>>26884

all useful thank you

>>26884
The thread'll probably be up for a day or two, someone will. Keep going with the useful stuff.

>>26884

I like them. Ignore the pointless argument going on in the background.

Night guys, I'll leave this to the anon posting useful DIY food pics.

>>26910

Thanks man, keep posting and don't let the faggot troll discourage you

>>26881

Here, I'll give you an example:

http://answers.google.com/answers/threadview?id=335945

All the info you need, right there, to show that you're full of crap, pal.
>>26872

Ctrl+F "Borlaug"

Thread full of retards.

/me

Curing/Drying/Preserving meat and making sausages

>>26910
Thanks for the thread.
I hope you realize most of us appreciate your input, mang.

>>26874
Your thread started out being epic but since you started giving your attention to that lettuce fag you let him derail it.Next time you start a thread (and I hope it's soon) do not feed guys like this and just ignore (they go away) concentrate on being helpful and awesome.Just some advice from a old fag.

>>26886

This system is EASILY replicable. We've even made it using corn plastics in a clay mold.

>>26897

Umm, I think that comment was directed at me, not you. Way to not use that grey matter.

I don't know if OP is still about, but I've always been paranoid about pollution. How do you make sure your soil and air and water doesn't have crap that ends up in the food?
I wonder if there are any studies on roadside pollution effects. I see so much farmland when I'm traveling on the highways.

Also, is there anything you can do to avoid GM crops from spreading to your crops, or is that only a problem for people beside the GM crops? (of course, I get the impression that they're not so ubiquitous that they're practically unavoidable, and that the big industrial farming companies own most of the farmland.)

>>26923
>Jerky

Now we're talking.

All about onions

>>26919
Wrong, fuckwit. Go read the DEFRA report yourself.
Nutritional output per acre (crops, not cattle) has actually increased, it's decreased PER tomato etc, but not per acre. Soil is better managed than ever, we're just spreading it over higher quantities.

>>26934
>solar panels
>corn plastics in a clay mold

Why haven't you shared this incredible breakthrough with the rest of the world, if solar panels are so easily replicable.

>mfw ceteris paribus has slipped the minds of every single fool (that's everyone) in this thread.

Are you guys retarded? None of your approaches, not sustainability, not high tech, NOTHING will work, because things change too quickly.

You idiots and your absolutes.

Planting Onions and Leeks

>>26949

If it's DECREASED per tomato, thatmeans people have to eat MORE to get the same value as before.

Thus, food value is IN DECLINE.

Can you not read the studies?

>>26935
>Also, is there anything you can do to avoid GM crops from spreading to your crops,

GM crops are not a bad thing. If you can get hold of them, use them.

>>26951

Who says you need solar? You could run it from hydroelectric or wind. Those are easily built.

Suddenly, DIY becomes BIY.

>>26956
You're missing the point. Some anal nutter is claiming soil quality is in decline because non-hydroponic farming is inherently unsustainable.

>>26958
GM foods might be beneficial in some cases, but some have been shown, by FDA studies themselves (which the FDA then turns around and denies) to be detrimental to health.

Also, it's not a good idea to "use GM products if you can get your hands on them." If you don't have the rights, you'll be sued into oblivion.

>>26956
But that doesn't lead to the conclusion that the soil nutrients have decreased.
Maybe they're raising the plants to give more plants with less goodies in them?

>>26960
Those sources of renewable energy are not efficient everywhere.

>>26956
>bigger yields than ever
>tomato doubles in mass
>loses 10% of its nutritional value by mass because it gained a shitload of water capacity

Not only am I getting more water from eating these monster tomatoes, but I'm still getting more nutrition too.

how to potato

>>26976
You're also getting more diabeetus, though.
I'm not being a dick or anything, but the problem with plants having less vitamins is that you gotta eat more sugars.

>>26984
May I ask how you came across these infopics? How many more do you have? Thanks for posting them.

>>26970
Don't believe the claims that GM foods are bad for you, they're really not....even the most devoted of econuts are backtracking.

>>26970
>some have been shown

/sci/ here. Spare us the weasel words and make with the evidence you allude to.

>>26984

A pie tin full of beer will also effectively control snails. Or copper foil as a barrier- they won't touch the stuff.

>>26985
>Tomato diabeetus

ಠ_ಠ

>>26990

a lot of them are converted gardening pdfs or google books

happy they helped; off to bed for me

>>26993
It really depends on what's been modified... if you're going to tell me bt corn is safe well...

>>26993

GM foods ARE bad. Just go watch the farmers in India mass-suiciding over failed GM crops that wouldn't perform as advertised.

>>26995
We're getting less nutrients and more sugar on all fronts, man.
Vegetables are just one small facet of it.

>>26995
>/sci/ here. Spare us the weasel words and make with the evidence you allude to.

Roger that. Link is a huff post article, very well sourced, discussing this very issue:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/jeffrey-smith/youre-appointing-who-plea_b_243810.html?ref=fb&src=s
p

>>27007

I really shouldn't need to point out that sugar is also a nutrient.

>>27009
I'm not sure if this thread could even TAKE more sperg.

>>27020
Please try my lettuce.

>>27004
If they had listened to Norman Borlaug, the guy who basically invented GM foods, they'd know the foods require high amounts of fertilizer, but will produce more per plant/cost. Also, You'd know that India would have Millions more dead without GM foods, as they averted severe starvation thanks to GM foods, but the failed to not reproduce so fucking much.

Farming isn't for retards. It takes considerable knowledge to know how to yield a crop of valuable payoff.

>>26993
>Don't believe the claims that GM foods are bad for you
... :| but why would I take your word for it?
Monsanto, for example, is right up there with the cock-suckers of corporations like the banks who caused the recent recession. They're going to fuck us in much more tangible ways, by killing off the bees with their pesticides (so short-sighted), and making crazy toxic food and superbugs and superweeds.

>>27004
that never happened dude

>>27008

That's more than a little sensationalist and not exactly reputable (or free of ulterior motive, for that matter). I was hoping for something more along the lines of a journal publication given the source you originally mentioned.

It's not like GM plants are terribly different from unmodified in some horrible lovecraftian manner merely by virtue of being modified.

Modification can be harmful or beneficial, or both in different contexts, depend on what you modify or what you neglected to take into account while designing your modification. More likely the latter, as senseless evil does not pay the bills whereas negligent corner-cutting does.

My purpose here is done.

BTW, you have all just been trolled.

And the LEDFag's (lettucefag, shows what you knwo of the guy) status is ruined on a board he'll never frequent, as he's too busy with /g/ or 420chan.

Love it, you fags feel free to sperg out now.

PWNED

>>27048

Aljazeera was right there on the fucking ground reporting on it, dipshit.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s2wTgYHS_hg

>>27046
American Academy of Environment Science has studied it, and GM foods pose a thread. You shouldn't listen to a random anon. Listen to science:

http://www.aaemonline.org/gmopost.html

>>27008
That's not well-sourced at all. None of the sites the article links to are impartial or even have expertise. The NY Times? Good lord.

>>27053
lrn2follow sources

>>27078

I did. I am not amused by your spurious definition of "source."

>>27078
Huffpo
Reliable source

>>27085
You mean like the EPA, American Academy of Environment Science, the International Journal of Biological Sciences...those are not reputable enough for you?

Would you prefer God himself tell you?

>>26993

If GM foods aren't bad for you, let you pregnant wife eat it and see how fast she miscarries.
Just like those pigs and rats they fed it to.

Monsanto will give you cancer, sue you for it, and call you a terrorist and have you renditioned for fucking LAUGHS.

>>27060
It. Did. Not. Happen.

There is a high rate of suicide for farmers anywhere, and india has a huge population & unpredictable farming techniques.

Compare the suicide rate of farmers in India for 5 years before and after the introduction of GM crops. You will see no difference.

It's obvious these people dismissed the sources without even following them. One led directly to an FDA document stating the exact opposite of the FDA's official statement. Another to a study by the Canadian Government.

Yeah, really shifty sources.

I live in the dry, hot, southern arizona desert. What can I grow successfully in my backyard?

>yfw the people ITT get botulism

>>27139

Cacti and nukes

>>27127

>implying the FDA isn't in bed with anyone who'll bribe them, i.e. big agri business, aspartame producers
>implying government as a whole doesn't suck corporate cock and gives two shits about health problems that will only become apparent in 5-10 years

You are just WAITING to be fucked, aren't you. Yeeeah, that's a good boy, bend over for uncle special interest.

>>27112

>>27168
>what the entire article was about
>argue against the person arguing for the article


wut

>>27168
So then, with such a heavy bias towards corporations (Monsanto being the biggest), how the FUCK is their admittance that GMO shit is awful not a pretty solid indicator?

Also, you're really stretching out this "no true scotsman" for sources.
Can't trust a baby publication because they have an agenda, can't trust the big guys cause they're in the pocket.
I guess the only thing you CAN trust is anything that agrees with your own view.

>>27026
>Please try my lettuce.

Just caught that.
I laughed IRL.

>>27179

Lol pressed the wrong response.

Health risks of GM crops is like cancer risks from mobile phones.

Balls.

>>27190
You can trust something you grew or made yourself.

>>27198

Damn, you sure are slow, by like 5,000+ posts!

>>27214
>you can trust something you grew or made yourself
>GMO products are fine, use them as much as humanly possible

Think about this in context of the debate for a second.

>>27211
Funny enough, the risk for cancer in phones IS LITERALLY balls.

>>27222
172 posts

>>27190

The only thing you can trust is your own food production and organics. For the most parts, profits go over human life/health. And if you don't believe that, I won't care. As it is, I'm steadily enjoying the flow of dimwitted fuckwads that believe anything they're told.
So... Rant all you want, keep believing the FDA, cuz "they're huurrr durr the gubmint, they care for us, right?"

Have some aspartame. the FDA said it's not harmful, after having appointed former G.D. Searle b.o.d Rusmfeld to their ranks. lololololol yes, the scams run deep. Deep into your pockets and health.

>>27227

Oh, and the Huufpo is a George Soros run shit publication and that Greek chick is a dimwitted fuckhole.

>>27227
The POINT is that GMO shit is awful.
The FDA is biased IN FAVOR of genetic sludge.
Context, fucking please.
I beg you.

Thanks for the sanctimony, though. I found it extremely refreshing.

>>27227
>>27225
Oh ffs.

Mobile phone cancer. Aspartame blindness. GM crops will kill your baby.

Fuck this thread.

>>27244
>Actual, not false dichotomy. Good dichotomy.
>Legit representation. Legit framing.

No, fuck you.

And now I need all you faggots to shut the fuck up about everything you know shit about. NOTHING that is done by gov't, agricultural corporations, is done for your health. Fucking deal with it.

>>27244

Cool, when you have kids, feed em GM corn. You'll probably blame hurrrrdurr duh foreigners for the premature death of your kid anyway. Remember, Monsanto has your back, man. Totally. Fucking idiot.

>>27280
I'm not in the usa, can't claim food regs here are in the pockets of 'monsanto'. Millions upon millions of people eat GM corn will no ill effects....just goddamn google it. Are ya gonna not trust the WHO? has monsanto corrupted every single scientist in the world?

>>27294


Aaahhaa...hahahaa...HAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAAAAA

>He's asking if I'm going to trust the WHO..

>Really?!

>Yeah, really!!

>What a dumbfuck

Sorry, I'm back.
No. I am NOT going to trust the WHO. Period. The WHO receives more money from big pharma than individual member gov. And no, not everyone is corrupted. The normalcy bias takes care of them.
And just to make it extra difficult for you, the ill effects of GM are only noticeable after a certain period, i.e., lag in the process, like with tobacco. So these killers can claim ignorance or incompetence, and the best part, fuckheads like you 'll believe em. "Well, if they did something like this, they'd be jailed, right?" Like Bush jr. & co were jailed for killing a million Iraqi's? NO.

>>27280
You have eaten GM food, whether you know it or not.

People have got waaaay too angry over something which, for us gardeners, is self-evident: Stuff we grew organically made us feel better than stuff we didn't grow organically.

After a time you find it blindingly obvious that everyone around you is feeling bad because they aren't eating right.

I read books like "In defence of food" by Michael Pollen, and I recommend the book to you all, but tbh it didn't tell me much I hadn't figured out for myself empirically.

I assume that, combined with poverty, is why Gen Y all around the first world is haphazardly putting together market gardens to feed themselves properly.

My friend grows shit in her backyard and she gave me some peas and they tasted like bitter shit. How do we make them taste good?

>>27316
>fully fledged usaican conspiracy retard

Between this & 'soil is unsustainable' this thread has got so shitty.

>>27317

Doesn't change shit

>>27333
This shouldn't be a place for fucking politics, is the thing.

Fucking lettucefag.

>>27333

1. I'm not in the US.
2. Call it conspiracy theories, I'll do me, you do you.
3. Eat Gm food <-the WHO (lol) says it good
4. Get the vaccines.
5. Mass immigration isn't used as a political tool
6. War isn't waged for profit.
7. Transnational Corporations only work for the betterment of people, not profits.

Better?

>>27348
oh, vaccines too.

What about chemtrails?

>>27338
Gardening is all about politics. Always has been. Basis of god damned civilisation.

>>27362

Not yet clearly defined. I have the patents for aerial aerosol spraying ops, though. You trying to say these don't exist?

>>27367
jfk assasination?

>>27362
CIA/organized crime job.

>Executive order 11110

Read.

>>27372

Ahum.

>>27380
water fluoridation?

>>27387

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oQ7P1vkIpCk&feature=results_video&playnext=1&list=PLBA061
C62E3F1B44E

>>27396
I'm going to assume youtube link means yes.

moon landing?

It's funny how the people who say GMOs are harmful also realize all the scams and hoaxes perpetrated, while the deniers are still getting their swine flu vaccines and slurping up that flouride.

>>27402

I have NO idea. And frankly, I don't give a shit.

>>27409
Oh, yes, good one.

swine flu genetically engineered to reduce global population?

>>27411
Ah damn, I was on a roll. Oh well.

>>27409

*slurp slurp*

mmmh, braindamage, bonecancer and dental fluorosis

>>27412

NO. Swine flu was a hoax perpetrated to sell more Tamiflu. they even psuhed it in that free shit publication you get at the trainstation.

"Swine flu, people, better get that Tamiflu"

I had the Flu. Walked it off.

>>27421
Heh, that one's almost true, well done.

>>27421
Haha, I don't know about you, but the local supermarkets are giving a 40% discount on groceries for getting a vaccine Haha.

>>27424

I'm on to you..

>>27426

Not here, I'm in the Netherlands, our psychopathic elites still have a semblance of a conscience.

>>27426


"Join the vaccine death club"

It's trendyyyyy!!! FREE IPADS WITH BRAINEATING CHEMICAL INJECTED INTO YOUR VEINS!!!

>>26044
>archive.installgentoo.net/cgi-board.pl/diy/thread/25540

>>27436
True story. They've chosen a slow kill by decreasing birth rates rather than straight up poisoning people. America gets no love :/

this thread

Saved everything in this thread, including the thread itself. This is my dream... get my family, my closest friends who are also hippie earth lovers together and have a compound where we grow food and just live the slow life together.

THIS IS WHAT YOU HAVE MADE YOUR CHILDREN, BOOMERS. HUGE FLAMING HIPPIES.

I like you Mr Farmer.

Also you who keeps posting informational images. Very clear and new. I haven't seen them about. Your presence in this thread makes the world a little happier and orphans worldwide cheerier.

As for lettucebro I know you're full of info, but man you're great at pissing people off. You also seem to be focussing on semantics rather than details. Hydroponics/Aeroponics can be extremely effective yes. But this is talking about just producing a little bit for you, and a little bit to sell. Of course the system is going to lose nutrients off they sell produce because it means the nutrients go somewhere else! It's due to this that I know of a farmer who will sell his food for 60% less at markets if people bring 10L of plant waste/manure with them.
Chill out dude.

Otherwise,
Enjoyable thread bros. I hope to see you Mr Farmer on this board again soon.

OP, how much land do you estimate that you need to feed a family of 4? Let's assume that you get most of what you eat from this land/animals. I say most because you will probably still have to buy/trade for things like salt.
If it matters, assume the land is in the south, like Texas.

Ignoring the gay wall of text intercourse, the info pics in this thread are great.

bump.

>>27586

>run a farm like mankind has done for thousands of years
>get called a hippie

its actually the boomers themselves who made farming look stupid

>>27139

tbh, marijuana

You can always set up an area that gets shade 50% of the time, get some good soil, and grow anything.

>>26638
>his
>talking about yourself in the third-person