/diy/ - Do It Yourself

I used to be a poor until I started taking tools I like around the jobsite.

We had a guy at work who broke a bit once. He's a vegetable now

>>2582721
Snapping bits is that thick is definitely user error.

>>2582721
What was he drilling, a broken tap

>>2582721
I'm not a pro, but when drilling hard materials aren't you supposed to start with a smaller bit and incrementally go up to the required size to avoid excessive torque on the bit? I believe starting out with the big bit right off the gate puts a ton more torque on the bit which can cause it to snap. Am I wrong?

>>2582721

No, totally wrong

If you have shit tools, the job will turn out shit and cost more because you haven’t got the right tools

>>2582721
Back when that saying was coined, they couldn't fathom the world we live in today which sells cheap unusable tools.

>>2582775
True
Great great grand pappy had no clue Ryobi would exist
SAD!

>>2582721
A good craftsmen with shit tools doesn't just heedlessly use them as though they were good. They recognise capability.

>>2582737
cheap bits will snap regardless of how careful you are, fact of life

>>2582721
I have two sets of drill bits, ultra cheap garbage-tier shit from Aliexpress, and a premium set for fancy jobs that is cheap garbage-tier low hardness cobalt shit from Aliexpress. Never had any of them break outside obvious user error with thin 2-3mm bits, although the longevity of the cutting edge is less than stellar. I predrill almost everything with 3mm, then step up if necessary.

Personally, its better to have a few good tools, than lots of cheap shit.

I share a studio workshop, and have seen one of the other guys buy cheap Chinese bits and complain that he couldn't drill holes in 80crV2 steel as it had "work-hardened".

picked up my pack of Dormer drill bits - not great, not top of the line, but good stuff - went through swapped the no-name black iron bit he was trying with. same drill, same speed, same clamping. Drilled the hole in 10 seconds.

That guy no longer buys no-name drill bits.

>>2582721
I blame shitty old circular saws all the time. That's why I only use my own saw now. Its the only saw whose guide marks I can actually trust

>>2582721
A good craftsman throws out the crap tools

>>2582775
all the cheap shit back then broke or rusted away before you were born, leaving the exceptions to the rule that old shit was just as shit as new shit

however you want to express your labour/time as a unit of wealth you are fantastically wealthy and productive. You are able to buy incredibly durable and useful tools far better than any trash made in the past.

>>2582872
A better take is that a good craftsman knows the general limits of any particular tool before putting himself in a position where he needs to accept or deflect responsibility for having tried to make it work and failing.

Also, the "good tools last forever" meme is utter bullshit fantasy and always has been; all tools that get used eventually stop working, break, go out of spec, etc.

Admitting that this is the case when it happens unexpectedly isn't "blaming the tool", it's just acknowledging that shit happens unexpectedly sometimes

The main reason for buying pro quality tools if you're a pro is because downtime costs money and those tools come with reliable warranty service/ replacement policies...ie downtime insurance.

Spending a bit more into preventing them from breaking or slowing down the rate of breaking is the manufacturers insurance policy againt being overwhelmed by warranty claims and losing business.

But it all comes out of the consumers pocket and if you don't need that level of reliability buying a "lesser" tool can save you money...in some cases the tool may be the exact same thing, just without those QC and warranty costs factored in.

>>2582961
>Also, the "good tools last forever" meme is utter bullshit fantasy and always has been; all tools that get used eventually stop working, break, go out of spec, etc.

Have you been tested? It's a saying not a literal statement of fact. It reflects the longevity that higher quality can provide. Unhinged autist.

>>2582721
>only a poor craftsman blames his tools
says the cheap ass supplying shitty tools

>>2582746
Pretty much. The web of the drill doesn't cut as effectively as the edges. If you drill a starting hole big enough for the web of the biggest drill you want to use it will cut the best/easiest. The thickness of the web and what it's made of gives drill bits their strength so grinding it down over time is going to make the bit weaker.

>>2583545
Forgot imagine

>>2583545
The web gets larger as it goes further up the bit so the bit should be stronger the shorter it is...

>>2583547
True, you're right

Use them like you stole them.

>>2582746
That’s part of it. Contact area generates heat—the enemy of HS steel. Big bit = more heat.
Also big bits are exponentially more expensive, so you use every opportunity to remove material with smaller bits first.

>>2582721
thats 15 min on the grinder and these are good again.

>>2583547
for some stuff such short drills are handy. like drilling rivet holes in sheet metal.

>>2582737
your birth was user error

>>2582746
>high heat will ruin drill bits
>high heat "work hardens" higher carbon steels, further hardens steel, is tougher to drill, creates more heat which further damages drill
>drilling is high friction, heat must be dissipated somewhere

Heat is only dissipated away from your drill and work piece by the chips you make.
The thicker the chips, the more heat is soaked up, the less work hardening, the less the drill heats up.
If the chip isnt soaking and removing the heat, that heat is soaking right your drill bit and work piece.

Simple as that. You go at a slow RPM, you feed the drill bit hard/deep and take much thicker bites. If there is minor work hardening, you try to bite under it and get material moving before it continues work hardening.
Thats the proper way of drilling hard material.
If you are using a mill, there are formulas on what your feeds and speeds should be. If going by hand, you gauge by your chipload.

As for pilot holes, they are just that. Small holes to pilot the drill.
Your pilot hole should diameter only be SLIGHTLY larger than your chisel point (yes the tip is called the chisel, not the web).
The sole reason for a pilot hole is to engage the work piece with the beginning of your cutting edges, instead of the chisel.
It helps keep the drill from walking, thats it.

If you incrementally drill holes going up in sizes, its really bad on tool life and hole accuracy.
The center of your chisel point is obviously the center of your drills bores.
The further out you go down the cutting edges, the more there is a levering effect.
When you start your cut way out away from the chisel, it levers bad.
There is more movement, you are less accurate, you put immense pressure on the tips of the drill bit, you are taking smaller chips focusing a lot of friction there.
It basically trashes your drill bit far faster than if you were engaged with the whole cutting edge.
You really should never do it unless its a last resort.

>>2584070
Also if you are actually drilling metal thicker than angle iron, or with drills near or larger than 1/2" routinely, you buy a real drill.
Idiots will brag about the fake inflated "peak torque" numbers @2100 rpm of their brushless cordless drills. Reality is, you cant drill shit with them. Artificially governed RPM with a brushless drill is not a real "low gear". You cant get real torque out of it. A corded Milwaukee Magnum with actual gear reduction, and a max RPM of 850 with absolutely demolish any cordless Milwaukee Fuel. You just arent doing any appreciable metal work with one, its 2100 rpm is made for wood and for retards to gun it and smoke their bits on angle iron.

Youll be surprised how much easier heavy metal work will be with one.

>>2582726

>>2582992
Have you?
>meme

(You)
> HuR DuR It's nOt a sTaTeMeNt oF FaCt!!!

Even "higher quality" tools wear out a lot faster when you actually use them than dumb faggots who don't use tools for a living realize.

Whether that means a "high quality" tools cost will be worth it over time or not isn't just a matter of buying a certain brand or alleged quality level based on price point. Sometimes a cheaper tool is able to tolerate less delicate handling and lasts longer, or the "good" one isn't as versatile so it gets less use and "lasts longer" but would break faster if used exclusively.

"You get what you pay for" is another meme/truism that is often wildly inaccurate and is used to fleece uncritical thinkers.

>>2584070
>yes the tip is called the chisel, not the web
It's only a chisel point if the drill has no web thinning or split point.

>The sole reason for a pilot hole is to engage the work piece with the beginning of your cutting edges, instead of the chisel.
>It helps keep the drill from walking, thats it.
Not sure if this is what you meant, but, no that isn't the only purpose of a pilot hole. They're mostly secondary effects, ackshually. The drill is guided by its own flutes, once they're buried in material. Pilot holes are used to keep material out of the are swept by the web/point of the drill. On regular, chisel-point drills, there's no cutting edge at the center of the drill, because it's taken up by the core of the drill. On smaller drills, this basically just bulldozes material out of the way, and, in practice, usually just means you need more feed pressure to make your hole.

But, once you get into larger drills, say, 3/4" or so, the area swept by the web becomes so large that it simply won't remove material anymore. It's like trying to press a nail through solid steel, and it's just not going to happen. Using a pilot hole approximately the diameter of the web (slightly large is best, on-size or very slightly smaller is also fine) eliminates that issue by simply removing that material beforehand. This is also why you can drill much larger holes without predrilling with web-thinned or split-point drills, and why such drills in smaller sizes are so much easier to feed by hand.

>If you incrementally drill holes going up in sizes, its really bad on tool life and hole accuracy.
It's not actually that bad. Most of the risk is from the variable rake between the inner and outer edges of the tooth. It's much higher on the outside, and will either require almost no pressure to feed, or actually try and self-feed in some cases. This leads to a tendency to feed way too fast, making the tooth take an excessive chip and either wear very quickly or just break/chip.

>>2584198
(cont'd.)

Keeping that effect in mind, you can drill incrementally larger holes without issue as long as you're mindful of your actual *feed rate*, and not simply pressure. As an example, I just had to drill out some 0.159" holes to 0.166", which is 0.0035" engagement on either side of the hole. Felt like I was drilling air, but, feeding the drill no faster than usual meant it had no issue over the 30-something holes that needed enlarging.

Generally speaking, you don't really want to do this, though. It's not that it's necessarily a problem for the drill, just that it's a waste of time. The only reason you wouldn't go straight from a 1/4" drill to a 1" drill is if you didn't actually have the power to run the 1" drill, or, like in my case, you needed to enlarge an existing hole. It is true that, when you are drilling in numerous steps, the hole can wander a little, it usually isn't a significant effect. Drilled holes are rarely expected to be within a few thousandths at best, and those that are are usually finished with an end mill, anyway.

Also just to clarify, >>2584070's image shows material that has been "spotted", not predrilled. As shown, those definitely should not be larger than the drill if at all possible.

</autism>

>>2584171
>uncritical thinkers

Says the guy sperging out over common truisms.

>>2584171
>> HuR DuR
go back to readdit you stupid fag

>>2582723
I have enough fasteners for 2 lifetimes. People who buy screws are retarded.

>>2584199
></autism>
Not only is it autism, its mostly wrong. Its pretty obvious you went out and read some shit online but dont understand half of it.
Everyone knew you were full of shit the second you mistakenly called the chisel the web, or claimed that the web "cuts" material, and that grinding the "web" makes it weaker.
Yes anon, the tip of the web which is called the chisel... somehow stops being called the chisel when you relieve it a bit!

Earlier you claimed that the chisels "doesn't cut as effectively"
Then down here you claim it doesnt cut at all with large drill, but somehow it doesnt cut but bulldozes on small drills.
You are all over the place anon.

Claiming that rake angles change on cutting edges the farther they go out from the center, claiming that positional accuracy of holes "isnt actually that bad" on piloted holes.

Trying to pretend like my spotting picture (which I literally named spot) isnt the exact depiction of the phenomenon I talked about.

Youve made it pretty fucking obvious you have no fucking clue what you are talking about.
I mean look at you.
How about you tell everyone WHY you drilled out those .159" holes.
Tell them how you are so incompetent, you couldnt even tap mild steel and had to come to the machinist thread begging for help.

>>2584323
>Yes anon, the tip of the web which is called the chisel... somehow stops being called the chisel when you relieve it a bit!

I've only ever really heard it generically referred to as a point, with "chisel" specifically referring to the un-modified shape you get without any special grinding. Call it whatever you want, I don't actually care.

>grinding the "web" makes it weaker.
I never even said anything close to that.

>Earlier you claimed that the chisels "doesn't cut as effectively"
>Then down here you claim it doesnt cut at all with large drill, but somehow it doesnt cut but bulldozes on small drills.

You can put words in my mouth all you want, that doesn't mean it's what I said.

>Claiming that rake angles change on cutting edges the farther they go out from the center\
From Mitsubishi: "The rake angle of the cutting edge of a drill reduces toward the centre, and it changes into a negative angle at the chisel edge."

Also, from the same page: "During drilling, the centre of a drill crushes the work, generating 50–70% of the cutting resistance"

https://www.mitsubishicarbide.net/contents/mhg/enuk/html/product/technical_information/information/drill_terminology_web.html

>Trying to pretend like my spotting picture (which I literally named spot) isnt the exact depiction of the phenomenon I talked about.
It isn't, because that effect only applies before the edge of the flutes enter the hole, at which point they hold the cutting edges in place.

>Tell them how you are so incompetent, you couldnt even tap mild steel and had to come to the machinist thread begging for help.
Oh, so you know why Irwin taps slathered with Tap Magic and held in a guide didn't work right when used as directed? Do tell, I never did get a good answer.


It's one thing to constructively criticize someone. It's another to be wrong while doing it. But being a confrontational dbag while doing it is how you hit the bottom of the barrel.

>>2584444
>You can put words in my mouth all you want, that doesn't mean it's what I said.

Before this gets nit picked, yes, worded badly, that is what I said, but there is no contradiction. You can force material out of the way of a small drill with a chisel point fairly easily. If you want to try the same thing with one that's 2" across, at least wait for me to start recording.

>>2582723
Richest guy my dad knows (plumber) basically pinched everything from work including all the copper needed for jobs

>>2582740
concrete

>>2582961
This, something as simple as having a separate place for drill bits so you don't try to drill steel with one only good enough for wood makes a huge difference.