/diy/ - Do It Yourself

>>251634

Probably the more surefire thing for the beam would be to get a jack under there to lift the beams and put something impermeable (like vinyl flashing) between the beam the pylon, but I'd rather not do this since this is a 60 year old house and I'd sooner live with the rust coming back at its slow rate than risk the issues that might arise with trying to lift the beams.

Extra info in case I forgot it: House is in Oklahoma and was built in 1956; beams are galvanized steel (though all the zinc is gone on the bad rust areas); originally there were aluminum flashing termite guards between the beams and the pylons but they have rusted through; there has been virtually no movement of the foundation since it's been built. The pylons are made of concrete brick and mortar (ie the texture is the heavy grain present on concrete block)

Does anyone have an idea of whether or not this would work, or has done something similar? Or does someone know of another product that might work for this? Ideally the sealer would be completely waterproof indefinitely and able to penetrate the concrete brick enough to span the 8" (20.3cm) bottom of the I-beam when applied to either side.

fire
wd40
waxoyle

>>251642

What do you mean?

>>251644
I can only guess, but maybe he suggests to pre-heat the area, then apply WD40 to oust wetness, then apply waxoyl and trust on capillary action? Just a shot into the blue tho, and no idea if that would work.

Engineer here. A couple things don't make sense to me about what you've described.

1) The I-Beams were galvanized. But, you mentioned that the zinc coating has disappeared in the rusted areas, thus exposing the beam directly to the elements. This is atypical. Zinc coating doesn't migrate or erode under normal conditions. What would you appreciate this loss of coating to? Abrasion due to thermal expansion?

2) You mentioned that some aluminum termite flashing being previously isntalled between the masonry and I-Beam. Again, you mentioned this as having corroded through. This is, again, atypical. How do you think this has happened?

>>251659

What I'm guessing is that moisture coming into contact with the beam and flashing caused the aluminum to corrode preferentially, then when all the aluminum in contact with the beam had corroded, the zinc coating on the beam corroded in those areas until there was no more zinc left to prevent it's corrosion. I doubt it would be thermal expansion because the areas away from the really bad areas, while there are some small spots of rust, is otherwise fine.

There are other areas with aluminum flashing that are only contacting masonry and wood. These are corroded as well, but it's only surface corrosion. Only aluminum in contact with the steel beam have fully corroded.

I know this would have taken a while, but the house was built in 1956.

>>251651

That might work, looking into waxoyl now. I hadn't thought about using a wax product.

use por 15.

>>251666

The problem isn't the visible rust, but rather the stuff that I can only indirectly get to. It looks like a good product, though.

>>251663

Interesting. I'd say your assessments are reasonable, however very atypical. Although, a 50+ year time frame, mother nature seems to become extra resourceful.

Nevertheless, in my opinion, the *right* way to fix this would be by jacking up the I-Beams and reestablishing separation between metallic and masonry components. Really, jacking up a modular support system (pylons) like this isn't a big deal. Depending on the soil conditions surrounding the plyons, your biggest challenge might be suring up the ground in the immediate area to temporarily accept the load while jacking. I wouldn't be overly concerned with affecting the structure itself. You mentioned termite guards, so I'm assuming a wood-framed structure of some kind above the I-Beams. If it's a CMU or brick building, we have another story.

This way, you'll be able to do a proper cleaning of the I-Beams, prior to establishing separation. If you're interested, I can go on about what separation materials/methods may be favourable.

Ma ke a sacrificial anode and wire everything to it?

I have no experience but jacking the beams up 1/8 inch or whatever probably won't do anything. It's a house, not a cabinet

I might be full of shit though, listen to the engineer

>>251673

Interesting comment on the sacrificial anode. From what he described, that's *essentially* what his termite guards became; weirdly enough, especially in the presence of fresh water. But, I suppose it's possible -- I guess. Regardless, some obvious mistakes were made during construction. And really, a structural support system of the style he described would never be specified these days. Metal I-Beams resting directly on concrete pylons? *shudders*. Even if they are galvanized. Non-compressive sleepers, people! Sleepers! Or, curbings. I guess.

>>251672

If I were to jack it up, what rating do you think I would need (lbs)? It's a one story wood framed, medium-light construction.

I'll probably research this further before doing it, but what other precautions do you think would need to be taken?

Also, I thought about it and realized that another scenario might have occurred: do you think it's possible that what caused this wasn't water seeping up, but rather condensation forming? If condensation formed on the beam, the areas with nothing under them would allow the condensation to drip off before too long, while the areas with a pylon under them might collect water on the flashing/pylon where it would sit for a while. Do you think that's likely, or more likely the scenario described before?

>>251659

So you're an engineer that doesn't understand that the zinc coating on metal is designed to act as a rust-delayer, in that the zinc oxidizes before the underlying metal?

>>251679

No idea on the rating of the jack. And, one couldn't really specify a *good* rating without a proper set of prints. Haha. I mean, there's a number of issues that need to be considered. If it's your house, and nobody is in it. I'd just get the largest automotive bottle jack that's available in your area. We're talking something in, or around 5-tonnes probably. Really, these jacks are fairly inexpensive. Just get a cheap Chinese one, and maybe even return it when you're done.

Precautions? Observe soil conditions. Your lift point should be between the soil below the house, and the I-beam. You should be pushing the I-Beam up, off the pylon, essentially. Loosen any fasteners that affix the I-Beam to the pylon. Lift the I-Beam only as far as required to establish needed seperation and facilitate cleaning.

Regardless of how the water got there (either via capillary action [through the masonry], or via condensation/rain) the problem is that it was able to sit between the I-Beams and the masonry product. The material structure of masonry makes it like a sponge, essentially. It "soaks" up water and holds it against your metallic components and allows them to corrode.

What you *should* try to accomplish is provide better, inert, non-compressive separation between the masonry later, and metal support beams. With pylons, this usually comes in the following formula.

.. More to follow

.. continued:

1) Clean your I-Beams of all rust and debris.
2) Apply a product similar to "Galvicon" to the affected areas. This fixes the loss of the galvanization (zinc), that was previously providing isolation/protection.
3) Paint the exposed areas that are especially vulnerable to rust. Find suitable paint that's specified for UV exposure and on galvanized metal. Usually, it's an acrylic product of some kind.
4) Here's the kicker: Jack up the I-Bean such that you can install a plastic washer in the contact point. Try to use a product called "Delrin" and design a washer that will slide in around any fasteners that may be set into your pylons. Make this washer as broad as the footprint of the contact point between the masonry and I-Beam. Use approx 1/4" thick washer material.
5) Release the jack and let everything rest back down onto the pylon. Reapply fasteners, or whatever.

Again, the crux is the plasticized washer which provided electrical isolation (which reduces the need for cathodic protection) and, becomes an ad-hoc vapour barrier for the joint. Protecting the metal becomes the responsibility of the Galvicon you applies, and subsequent paint layer. A plastic product will also reduce the possibility of abrasion (caused by thermal expansion) removing the aforementioned two layers.

>>251683

*sigh*. "Rust delayer". Why does it "delay" rust, my friend? Because it's a plating of protection that's cheap, easily plates to iron and is relatively non reactive. Congrats. You've stated the obvious to everyone :) Yes, it delays rust. But only if it's still adhered to the structural member.

>>251689

Zinc coating doesn't migrate or erode under normal conditions. What would you appreciate this loss of coating to?

Let me throw this quote back at you. Zinc does erode under normal conditions. It oxidizes. It's used as a sacrificial coating on steel because when zinc oxidizes it does so with a white color, while steel does it with a glaringly hideous red color.

>>251686
>>251687

Would vinyl flashing (probably double layered) do the trick? That was what I initially planned on using if I did jack up the beams. I really do not want to add any extra height, and there aren't any fasteners connecting the beam to the pylon anyway.

I'll probably add some sealer at a pitch around the bottom of the beam where it contacts the flashing, since if it is condensation it could still conceivably sit against the beam for a while otherwise.

I'm still not certain that I want to jack up these beams, but it's definitely an option. Thanks for you help.

>>251691

Do we really need to split hairs? Please, contribute something to the discussion as opposed to just arguing semantics. Proposed a better method of establishing isolation -- i'm there's something *better* in that regard.

But, i'll address your point anyways. He mentioned that the zinc had been removed from the areas where rust was observed. When zinc oxidizes, does it normally flake off the surface to which it's adhered? No. It remains, in its oxidized state and continues to provide protection to the underlying metal. That's not what he described though, and why I had my questions. Something is wrong, and why I suspected the problem may be caused by abrasion as a result of thermal expansion.

So, how much further has this gotten us? Great, you know what zinc oxide is. We're all happy for you. :)

>>251697

You tell me to not split hairs, and then you split hairs. It's a 50 year old structure with galvanized sitting on top of block/concrete which is notorious for wicking moisture.

By gone he meant removed.

50 years ago it was probably just galvanized flashing anyway.

I don't know what type of width of beam we're working with, but we like to use sticky back window flashing to isolate wood from block. I think it's made by dupont but I may be wrong.

Ideally I'd use anything non-metallic. Vinyl would serve fairly well.

>>251704

The beam has an 8" flange.

The flashing was definitely aluminum.

Are you talking about the butyl backed flashing? I don't have a problem with wood contacting masonry, all the wood sitting on the foundation wall has already been hit with some epoxy resin.

>>251704
>>251711

He's talking about 4" or wider tape flashing that is used around windows after installation and before siding is put on a home. It's white on one side and the other side has a tar? adhesive on it, definitely not butyl. Also used as flashing for ledger boards on decks

Architect here. This is not something you can really do yourself. What if you miss a bolt and crack the pylon, for example. At the very least get a civil engineer to actually look at it. You gonna jack the structure at just one point? Sounds like a shit idea. Also im having trouble seeing a 5 ton car jack jack a house.

>>251764

You design houses, leave fucking with them to people who do it daily.

>This is not something you can really do yourself.

What if the pioneers had thought this way?

>>251764

You design houses. You should let advise about how to fuck with them to the people who do it daily.

>This is not something you can do yourself.
What if the pioneers had thought this way?

>>251764

The whole point of the thread is me trying to find a way around having to jack up the I-beams with a product that will create a moisture barrier through the concrete brick.

If I did jack up the beam, it would be the minimum required to slide a piece of flashing between the pylon and the beam before going back down again. Nothing would be permanently raised.

So far I'm leaning towards the idea of a wax product.

You must construct additional pylons.

>>251856
/thread

Wow, the ignorance in this thread is un-fucking-bearable for a bunch of people calling themselves engineers.


Stress corrosion; on one hand the zinc plating on the beam actually WORSENS the rate that the beam will deteriorate in the spot where the stress is. The zinc isn't doing anything productive, it's actually making the cathodic area concentrated where the load is, and because the beam is in a higher energy state where it's sitting on the pylons, it's going to want to give up it's electrons (metallic bonds) and grab oxygen to normalize itself with the rest of the beam.


https://www.galvanizeit.org/about-hot-dip-galvanizing/how-long-does-hdg-last/in-contact-with-other-m
etals/

pic related, it's my face when diy "engineers" thought water was the cause... i understand material sciences aren't usually required courses for engineering degrees, but they really should be.

redneck engineer'd solution:
sacrificial zinc is gone, after 50 years...
grab a couple of rolls of pennies.
clamp in vice (entire roll)
make a passe on edge of pennies with belt sander/ grinder/ whatever to expose zinc inside.
layout pennies on cleaned off I-beam.
use blow touch on pennies (zinc will ooze out)
drink beer.

>>251876

I hate people like you. You provide nothing but criticism. You're bearly on-topic. And, you don't provide any solutions or alternatives.

What in the fuck are you talking about? Walk around in the real world, look at ever galvanized structural member in the field. I guess all of those installations are wrong, too, eh?

The zinc isn't doing anything productive? What in the fuck? Alright, install raw steel. Enjoy.

Every solution provided in this thread was made to lessen your point on that cathodic properties of stress points in beams.

Fuck, this is why I hate most engineers. You dicks *all* think you're geniuses -- but you spend more time judging each other as opposed to solving the problem.

>>251880
Yes!! The beer is the answer! I knew it! Also, increase the airflow underneath your house so that the Ibeams can't rust as fast. Like a bridge, sandblast and paint.

Also, /diy's engineers have a degree free of charge from /b. so fuck you.

>>251885

http://www.springerlink.com/content/054783762m185218/

"The effects of electroplated and hot-dip zinc coatings on the fracture of low-alloy steel AISI 4140 bars tempered to hardnesses in the range Rc 33 to 49 were studied. Either electroplated or hot-dip zinc coatings decrease resistance to stress corrosion cracking,i.e., they reduce K"

Never once did I say all zinc coated beams are bad; but in the case that they are sitting on a ceramic, with a piece of aluminum wedged between, in wet conditions, they are obviously the wrong choice.

I know you think you're pretty smart putting words in my mouth and calling me a dick, but I didn't come to offer a solution; I can't and shouldn't over an image board where I can't actually examine the member. Maybe if you could pull your head out of your ass long enough to stop stop getting offended by an anonymous person on an image-board you could see that you don't know everything ( and from reading your posts, it's pretty clear you actually know next to nothing ).


My advice: get a real engineer to look at it, don't ask 4chan for help, DONT DIY.

If you do anything though, do not, for the love of god, listen to the guy telling you to lift your house up with a car jack and "clean" the beam.

>>251934
Listen to this guy. If there's enough moisture under your house to rot a steel beam then there is too much moisture. Put more vents in, and think about placing a sheet of nylon or plastic between the steel and concrete if you are worried about it. Either way, consult a professional.

get that spray rubber sealant stuff. Comes in a spray can like paint. You can get it at auto parts stores.
Clean and prep area like your plan, then just then cover it with the spray on rubber. Repels all water.

>>251934

>If you do anything though, do not, for the love of god, listen to the guy telling you to lift your house up with a car jack and "clean" the beam.

I would probably use more precaution than just a car jack, and would likely use chemical cleaners to clean the beam. I wouldn't jack it up and scrape it or brush it or anything, and like I said before I would also just get it barely high enough to slip flashing under it.

I'm still hopeful that I could possibly create a moisture barrier without having to actually put a piece of vinyl under it, since even if the sealing product is expensive I would still save money over someone else doing it. If I do decide to jack it up I would get estimates from people before doing anything anyway; there is a good chance they might not think it's worth doing due to the complications it could bring. It's no where near structural failure (seriously there are only a couple of areas where there is any flaking) and it's been 66 years in the making to get to this point. I was just thinking there might be a way for me to, like I said, avoid having to actually move the beams.

>>251938

Already been done, minus the putting the insulator between the beam and the concrete part. I may end up closing off the vents and running a dehumidifier full time through the space or putting in a powered vent or two.

>>251880

I'm basically doing the same thing with cold galvanizing. (probably not quite as effective though)


Everyone that's posted so far, thanks for the help, I really appreciate it. Please try not to get so upset at each other.

>>251934

>If you do anything though, do not, for the love of god, listen to the guy telling you to lift your house up with a car jack and "clean" the beam.

I would probably use more precaution than just a car jack, and would likely use chemical cleaners (spray on, could be done with minimal clearance) to clean the beam. I wouldn't jack it up and scrape it or brush it or anything, and like I said before I would also just get it barely high enough to slip flashing under it.

I'm still hopeful that I could possibly create a moisture barrier without having to actually put a piece of vinyl under it, since even if the sealing product is expensive I would still save money over someone else doing it. If I do decide to jack it up I would get estimates from people before doing anything anyway; there is a good chance they might not think it's worth doing due to the complications it could bring. It's no where near structural failure (seriously there are only a couple of areas where there is any flaking) and it's been 66 years in the making to get to this point. I was just thinking there might be a way for me to prevent rust from reoccurring without moving the beams.

>>251938

Already been done, minus the putting the insulator between the beam and the concrete part. I may end up closing off the vents and running a dehumidifier full time through the space or putting in a powered vent or two, not certain which would be more effective yet.

>>251880

I'm basically doing the same thing with cold galvanizing. (probably not quite as effective though)

>>251856

Wish it was that easy.

Everyone that's posted so far, thanks for the help, I really appreciate it. Please try not to get so upset at each other. Checking thread again tomorrow.

>>251934

Holy shit, can you relax? Dude, this is a 50 year old, single floor, wood framed, medium duty structure. Not some priceless relic.

As an engineer, do you do government work? For the rest of us, there really is a "good enough". You don't need to over engineer things into oblivion and overly complicate the situation. Requesting he consult with a real engineer, and not to DIY goes against the spirit of this board. AND, would probably run an invoice that exceeds the cost of the original structure.

Great idea!

>>251934

Haha. I think this is my favorite point in the thread so far. He comes into the DIY forum, criticizes a possible solution, posts references to looks that have nothing to do with corrosion (the topic at hand), says he's unwilling to actually provide a solution, then leaves. Bravo DIY. Bravo!

Update:

The R&D guy from PC products called me back today, and I think I've decided what I'm going to do

Since this is apparently a very unusual application I'm going to go get myself some metal the size of the bottom flange of the I-beam and recreate a minature of the pylon in my backyard and then test the pc rot terminator and wax (and any other product someone recommends for sealing the masonry) for how far they are able to penetrate the pylon when applied in the manner I described.

If I get really really promising tests I'll go with PC rt or some other epoxy resin, but if not it probably won't be worth it because since it is also a fairly strong adhesive if I were to need to jack that beam after applying the epoxy resin it would likely take part of the pylon up with it.

I'll probably get decent results with the wax product (funny enough, mentioned by the first guy that replied to this thread) and since there is no downside to applying a wax product (other than time and money) it seems likely that it's what I'll go with if the epoxy resin looks to not be a good choice.

Also when applying the products I'll probably have to get some wood and "dam" the area around the pylon so that the product can supersaturate the application area.