/diy/ - Do It Yourself

>>1832994
aren't FPGAs expensive as fuck and not really available to plebs and consumers?

>>1833002
>expensive as fuck
Uhh no not really

>>1833620
post counterexamples

>>1833630
arduino came out with some, did you bother looking?
plebs don't know how to use them, that's why they aren't more widespread.

>The processor of the Dreamcast console is now open-source and you can flash a generic board with it
Do you stupid fucks finally see why I always make fun of this place?

>>1833673
>Do you stupid fucks finally see why I always make fun of this place?
No I don't. Do you think that the Dreamcast is the only softcore available?

>>1833676
My fault everyone. I thought this was /g. Will be more carefull next time.

>>1832994
What do you guys do with FPGAs?

>>1832994
How do you know the FPGAs don't have NSA backdoors?
They're all proprietary hardware configured by largely undocumented bitstreams generated by closed source toolchains.

Clearly the only option here is to use 74-series logic or discrete transistors.

>>1833895
>How do you know the FPGAs don't have NSA backdoors?
Some do. You can find some older ones in conference books. They're still more secure because what you extract is a bitstream that tells the FPGA what its logic is, so you still have to reconstruct the simulation/verilog/VHDL/whatever from that, and to do that you need proprietary info about the chip (people have done this though). It's still possible to make systems that are virtually uncrackable though.

>>1833002
Check out the lichee pi it's a small fpga from China that cost ~$10

Oh shit nice. Has anyone worked with the pynq before? I'm tempted of getting into it, but Vivado's expensive as fuck. Are there opensource alternatives?
I wonder if my edu email moght still run the vivado, but to be honest, I'd spend the money for it after 3 months of saving.

>>1833916
>Are there opensource alternatives?
Nope, if you want an open source synthesis toolchain you're pretty much restricted to Lattice parts.

>>1833690
I do image processing stuff with it. This is something FPGAs can do vastly quicker than processors

Anything that needs to be secure should be done on FPGAs. All Intel processors have backdoors in ring 0.

>>1832994
I work with a xilinx FPGA at work. The documentation is really confusing if you have no background in FPGAs. They rebrand their shit constantly. Over priced or maybe I'm just a retard. I get shit performance.

>>1833002
Not as cheap as microcontrollers but still very accessible

just buy a $5 arm chip

>>1834164
>All Intel processors have backdoors in ring 0.
Lol, you wish it was just ring 0.
IME is like ring -3, meaning it has lower access than what is even defined by the ISA, so not even software running in ring 0 can prevent spying.

>>1834499
>IME is like ring -3
https://youtu.be/sp-0dvjxQE0

https://youtu.be/4vWiSaXQmqM?t=872

>>1833916
Vivado's free unless you need to work with the bigger FPGAs. I've been using it just fine on my Artixes.

>>1834400
I'm retarded
got a part# you'd recommend?

>>1835512
He's recommending you to get an MCU and not an FPGA

>>1833002

This is not chink shit prices (iirc owned by national instruments now)

https://store.digilentinc.com/

>>1834499
IME = Minix subsystem right?

>>1837150
Intel Management Engine
And yes, that's the one where they're running an embeded Minix system, which also runs a full network stack and has total control over the CPU.

looks like a good one for your new gaming system. you running Intel or Ryzen?

>>1836866
these mezzanine mounted ZYNQ modules are great

>>1837371

>Zybo
>2x Spartan 3e starter kit
>Digilent Spartan 3 board
>Spartan 2E Digilab
>NI MyRIO
>No will to do anything
I will be buying an Anvyl soon tho :)

I have 2 of them, each has 2 virtex 6 chips on a pcie card, costed 100 dollars

>>1840209
what the fuck??? link please, very interested. or atleast a picture.

pic related taught me vhdl from 0 to homebrew CPU.

>>1841393
>>1837561

What would you guys want in a fpga development board? I'm toying with designing a new one, not aimed at the beginner market, but instead using a larger fpga for more experienced devels, and having much less integrated peripherals, but instead leaving io to edge connectors.

For onboard peripherals how about an ethernet phy, 16 bit wide DDR2 (balancing performance and easy timing), just a few switches, a few leds, a couple buttons, and a spi configuration eeprom with extra space for user data.

For edge connectors I have been using 50 pin 0.1" pitch with half of the pins devoted to grounds, one pin for 3.3v IO, and 24 lvttl. this lets me use IDC ribbon cable to easily placed daughter boards and hit ~100MHZ. This style edge connector also can easily be split out into 3 digilent pmods.

What about price?

>>1841600
>What would you guys want in a fpga development board?
fast programming, so pretty much has to be PCI-E

>>1841648
what is the general application? Crypto?

>>1834499
I have no idea what "ring 0" even is, how do I start learning these things? Tannenbaum and Hennesy's architecture?

>>1842481
Ring 0 refers to specifically to the hardware security model for x86 processors.

The concept in general is that to enforce security measures, certain instructions need to be restricted so that user-space programs can't execute them.
These instructions are referred to as being 'privileged', and includes things like instructions capable of modifying things like the current privileged level, current memory mapped to a process, and any other instructions which access or modify sensitive information.

x86 splits its instructions into four 'rings'.
Ring 0 may execute any instruction supported by the processor, Rings 1 and 2 have reduced privileges, and ring 3 has no privileges.
Generally speaking, an operating system's kernel runs in ring 0, since it requires complete control, rings 1 and 2 aren't commonly used but their intent was to be where device drivers run, and then user programs run in ring 3.
Since ring 3 has no privileges, it is forced to ask the kernel to perform privileges tasks for it. This makes it much harder for user programs to circumvent kernel security measures.

>>1842505
Nice, so intetesting.

>>1841393
is this a good board? I think I saw the nexys5 on offer up for kinda cheap. Currently own altera, but with cyclone 2 and one with 3, so they're supported by the quartus lite.

whats the coolest project you guys have done in HDL? I think the pipeline mips mcu I did was the coolest project yet. Im waiting on a camera to do some type of image processing project.

>>1842560
>whats the coolest project you guys have done in HDL?

That's a great question, but I don't think you will get answers because of the danger of doxing.

>>1842966
True, but I'm not asking people to link their githubs. Just a general overview of something. I'm sure a lot of ideas have been done so many times and uploaded to github or other sites.

>>1842560
I'v been working on designing my own CPU, but I'm caught trap of never feeling like the ISA is good enough.
Honestly, the more I try to improve it, the more my ISA starts to look like MIPS.
On one hand, that shows how well designed MIPS is, but on the other, I kinda wanted to do something different.

I think I'm going to take a break from designing my own CPU design, and instead I'm going to re-implement the CDC7600, Cray-1 and Cray-2 on a FPGA.

>>1841393
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Fusion-IO-Drive-2-DUO-Xilinx-Virtex-6-XC6VLX240T-IC-FPGA-development-board/392704367323?hash=item5b6f011adb:g:tfoAAOSwH5NeV5hv

Last one available, I already bought 2

It's so strange no one has ported Rust to fpgas

>>1843737
what benefit could rust possibly provide as an HDL

>>1842505
What would ring -3 be able to do?

>>1843737
What about manjaro?

>>1843820
It's faster and much safer. Should empower everyone regardless of race, color or sex to develop efficient and safe fpga apps

>>1843836
If someone ported manjaro to fpgas they would become much more mainstream

>>1843834
Rings below 0 aren't defined by the architecture, meaning that code running on the processor can't do anything about ring -3 intervention.

my camera module is not here yet. Might have to buy a more expensive one from amazon now -_-

>>1832994

"All processors on the market have CIA back doors. Time to take back control"

That is exactly the reason i wont move on from ceramic dip TTL.

>>1839573
Which one have you made the most use of?
t. beginner looking for recs

>>1847115
altera makes some nice kits, but they can be a bit more expensive. It really comes down to your budget for your first FPGA board.

>>1847115
Get Altera their tool chain is free, Xilinx is nice too but I'd rather not spend $100 / year on a Vivado license

>>1832994
SuperH is not that great OP

RISCV is better

>>1848848
https://riscv.org/

You either choose to build an entire toolchain from an abandoned stupid Japanese glorified MCU, or just get an ARM clone that already has lots and lots of tools

>>1848811
>altera makes some nice kits, but they can be a bit more expensive.
Holy fuck you weren't kidding.

>>1848821

Vivado webpack is free too. It is good for any beginner to intermediate level device.

>>1848975
But why not just use Altera and have their full software suite for free that scales from beginner to professional? SignalTap is also free which saves another couple hundred dollars annually.
Not trying to start a holywar, I use both Xilinx and Altera and both are great

Yea, I would go with altera as a begineer board. They have the DE0 nano for kind of cheap and the quartus prime environment is free. Its good enough to design your logic blocks and debug as well. I currently use VIVADO, but this more to be familiar with the software as I don't have any spartan based fpga's or whatever xilinx calls them at the moment.

>>1848851
>ARM clone
RISC-V is more closely based on MIPS.

I learned about FPGAs and other ancient modular hardware in navy A school but we dont use that shit any more and I dont even know how you use these things. Can someone give me a quick rundown?

>>1849564

You describe a synchronous circuit design in some sort of hardware description language - probably VHDL or Verilog. You run your program through a series of tools that generates a bitstream that gets downloaded into the fpga fabric to make it behave like your synchronous description.

I took time to read about Motorola 68000 series of microprocessors (m68k) and learned from the Wikipedia article about a modern recreation of it for FPGAs called Apollo Core 68080 (link: http://www.apollo-core.com/).).
I want to get into FPGA development someday, and being aware of the huge amount of demos from the demoscene on the Amiga platform, I became very interested in this reimplementation.
I really like the idea of adopting old microprocessors that were recreated open source, like this Apollo Core and >>1832994 j-core. I like >>1843338 idea too, and I see lots of potential.
I mean, there are so many great archaic programs made obsolete because of old architectures not being supported anymore, but we could really keep them alive with FPGAs instead of embracing new tech full of back-doors and exploits like Meltdown and Spectre, just for performance that is actually only needed because software is becoming more and more bloated.

>>1849055

As far as I know, altera still uses 4 input LUTs, and I am very happy with the on-chip provisions Xilinx provides, in terms of brams, multipliers, IO hardware and standards, and clocking. Every time I go looking, Xilinx devices of a given capacity are less expensive. The Xilinx software is free for the class of devices that I build around.

Also, I have a lot of designs that are xilinx based. Its a bit of work to port a performant design. In each of the areas mentioned above, to transition to a new family I'd have to modify the design (probably only slightly though). Only recently have I looked over at altera/intel and seen a device I want to try out (the max10 - because of its flash based nature). I'll probably design a max10 board later this year or early next. I have worked with an altera device once in the past, the software was straightforward, and I have no religious bias against them.

im a retard, can you use these as a desktop PC when configured correctly

>>1850312
these things are often simple enough that you can design your own logic gate system with them

short answer: hell no

>>1850314
so whats the point. just very specific uses for specific use cases?

>>1850312
Yes, you can, but expect to get the performance level of a 1990's IBM PC.
It takes a lot of logic to implement a high-end CPU, and even more logic to do 3D graphics with hardware textures, geometry transformation, and lighting.

>>1850325
FPGAs are exactly what it says on the tin: "field programmable gate arrays", meaning that it's a bunch of logic cells on a configurable interconnect.
They're used to implement digital logic designs without needing to shell out for a run of custom silicon chips.

FPOAs will make these irrelevant soon

>>1850606
And? It's not like FPGAs are the only programmable logic that ever existed.
FPGAs built upon the PLAs, PALs, and GALs which came before them.

Counterpoint: FPOAs were a market failure and the company behind them folded in 2008, just 5 years after production started.
I'm also not entirely sure what the difference between a FPOA and a FPGA is supposed to be, considering that most modern FPGAs already have MACs and the like on their fabric anyways.

>>1850635
I agree. Some fpga families will just continue to pull in larger and larger blocks of hardened IP, and configuration tools will be better about synthesizing lower speed peripherals from a generic fabric. fpgas with multicore arm cpus, hardened memory controllers, macs, SERDES, etc. are not new.

On the other hand, trying to put every problem into a SOC box is backwards thinking. If you can leverage the fabric to do your computation, like in ultrasound, and maybe lidar, you are way ahead. What is a handful of registers and a couple of alu's compared to a sea of gates.

>>1849564
learn the basics of digital logic, then you can move on to FPGA's. A good textbook will teach you about logic blocks like flip-flops, latches, gates, ALU's, mux's, registers, etc.. (just to name a few) and then give you assignments to put these together and make something happen. A great textbook I reference a lot is, Digital Design and Computer Architecture by David Harris & Sarah Harris. This book borrows A LOT from a Patterson and Hennesy's textbook, but its easy to follow at the undergrad level. You probably won't use k-maps in a real job environment, but it's always good to know the fundamentals.

>>1849420
>DE0
I'd add 20 bucks and get a DE10.
It's what MISTer emulatorfags use so the resale value is significantly higher. (particularly if you build the sdram expansion yourself)

>>1837371
I'd mention Libreboot/Coreboot, but if this fella's going all the way with an FPGA he already knows about that program. The other option is the beagle bone black/SoC's that are completely open source. If he wants to scale up processing power that shouldn't be too hard to do.

There's open RISC-V implementations that fit on ICE40 FPGAs. These are dirt cheap and well supported on the open (yosis etc) stack.

>>1851328
yea for sure, good points.

Fellas, I found some labs online to implement some DSP blocks in fpga (filters and simulation in simulink), this is looking a bit difficult. I can't remember anything about dsp from undergrad lmao. Anybody here implement DSP blocks in an fpga?

>>1841600

add a VGA prehip on a controller plz, i'm sick of slapping it on to the end of every makefile

also, I wouldn't mind getting a full SoC running the LUT's next to a ARM core or something.

Price for what you're describing should probably come in around 200. SoC dev boards with networking usually come in around ~400, doesn't sound like you need to go that far.

>>1842560
What camera? I bought a few ov7670 modules. Right now I'm just trying to get it to display, but the initial VGA timing configuration is incompatible with the monitor I'm using. I need to figure out what data I need to send to change it to something more suitable.

>>1853700
>prehip
What is prehip? Is 12 bit color via a divider network not good enough? I already have an io board with VGA as described, a couple ps2 ports, and I think stereo out (might be mono, did it years back) done with a filter to be driven by a simple high frequency pwm.

Re cost, at $200, it would have to be a tiny FPGA.

Thanks for response.

>>1853725
literally got the same module. You need a VGAcontroller and interface to send the RGB signals through the VGA port to the monitor. I haven't meddled with the OV7670 yet, but I did implement a VGA controller back in undergrad when we made a pong game.

/ohm/ started talking about TIS-100, Shenzhen IO, and Exapunks.
Anyone here ever take a stab at implementing a fictional processor, or some of the weird real ones like the connection machine?

>>1854824
>/FPGA/
We don't do "fictional" here. If we tell the FPGA to be a processor, it is a processor.

>>1854829
You misread my comment.
TIS-100, Shenzhen IO, and Exapunks are games which revolve around assembly programming.
The processors in those games aren't real, they were made up for the purposes of gameplay.
I'm asking if anyone has tried to make them into a real CPU.

>>1854855
The "processors" are just simulators. The ISAs are quite real, although shitty.

>>1854860
Are you always so fucking obtuse?

>>1854870
I go for concise. Why obtuse?

>>1854875
Because you're needlessly nitpicking when there was no ambiguity in the first place.

>>1854879
Whole "fiction" nonsense irked me.

>>1854870
he programs gate arrays for fun, what do you think

>>1854888
What part of it bothers you?
It’s a made up processor which was created for a work of fiction.
IE, it’s never has been, nor was it intended to be, implemented in actual hardware.

>>1854824
I've heard of these games. I think I have Shezhen IO installed on my computer, but I haven't actually tried it out. Are you asking if we've played those games to implement a fictional processor? I have not, I've implemented a real mips processor, albeit very simple but it works. but yea, I've yet to even boot up the game, might do so tomorrow or something.

>>1834585
It really is if you look into it. It has direct memory access and can change memory values without the CPU even noticing. There's a reason why there are several projects that are there to explicitly kill the IME and why when Dell accidentally made IME-free machines available for general purchase, they sold well enough they back-pedaled on pulling the option.

>>1855216
Goodness, implementing something like MIPS in Shenzhen IO would probably be near impossible.
I was more of asking if anyone had tried to do something like implementing the TIS-100 on a FPGA.

>I think I have Shezhen IO installed on my computer, but I haven't actually tried it out
It's a lot of fun, very well made.
Be sure to print the manual out though, it makes playing a lot easier, since there's a good 40 or so datasheets that you'll need to reference.

>>1854824
id rather do it on a stm32 than a fpga

>>1855559
Why? If you're just going to do software emulation then why confine it to a microcontroller?

>>1855559
Lmao brainlet

Ok this might not be the right thread for it, but close enough I guess, and I put it in /g/ but I'm honestly not sure those brainlets will be able to tell me anything. /diy/ better bet.

What's the best non-jewed software to use with a CH341A programmer? I got a fucking rootkit, can't figure out how to write-enable my SPI ROM, and my USB flasher just arrived in the mail.

Also I'm planning to probably just take the whole raw .rom dump file provided in my laptop manufacturer (LG)'s bios update package, and flash the whole damn thing to eliminate any chance of the virus surviving. But I've heard that'll wipe out my GbE region and thus my MAC address, do I really need that to connect to the internet? (it has its own wireless card in the laptop but I'm not sure if the CPU does some proprietary Intel Trusted® Integrity Check Bullshit™ that'll prevent me from talking to my router)

I don't care about wiping the serial number & etc, I'll just add those back in UEFItool from my current firmware dump, once I figure out how to use the program anyway.

>>1856590
flashrom.org

>>1854913

>>1856590
I don't know about your specifical spi rom, but most of the serial flash chips I know that come in 8 pin packages have a write enable pin. You keep that pin at a certain logic level to allow or deny writing.

>>1833690
As part of my university classes I implemented a 32 bit single cycle MIPS processor, in a later semester added pipe lining to it. After that nothing because I am uninspired when it comes to project ideas.

>>1832994
>The processor of the Dreamcast console is now open-source and you can flash a generic board with it.
Why not just buy a 6502 or Z80 for $5 instead of spending $100 on some soi dev board?

>>1858634
/fpga/ general...

whats everybody up to?

>>1834028
Like face detection, or what? That's really interesting. My quarantine project has been to build a kubernetes cluster out of single board computers, and I've just started using it for image processing this week

>>1833913
Thanks boo

>>1860092
face detection, image processing using matlab in conjuction with fpga's and shit is a good way to get started. Machine learning using fpga's is pretty interesting desu

>>1860429
Do you use HDL coder?

>>1860476
I have not yet, I do have the toolbox installed though.

I've been teaching myself VHDL while being locked in quarantine and so far I've gotten static VGA output, but I'm not sure where to proceed from there. My current goal is to have an ascii-like bits-to-text so that I can start making modules with human readable output, but I'm not sure how to save the amount of data I need for displaying it on even a 640x480 without a stupidly large register. Anyone have any tips on where to look next?

>>1833002
>>1833630
Fucking retard

>>1863324
Look up the TV Typewriter Cookbook by Don Lancaster.
It's old as shit, but it does a good job of explaining how to use text to index a character ROM and generate video.

>>1861382
How do you do image processing then? Do you just write VHDL/Verilog? Is it straight from a camera?

>>1863324
I've done this before. What I did was create a font mapping module (8bit char to 8x8 pixels) and a much smaller text memory (640/8 x 480/8 = 80x60 chars). I then had my VGA module generate X/Y coordinates so I could read the appropriate memory address and pixel value.

I used it in conjunction with a PS/2 Keyboard to make a simple typewriter.

>>1863631

>>1863429
>>1863631
>>1863667
Thanks for the advice, I'll take a look at both to maximize learning.

Any tips where to get started with FPGAs for a highschool youngfag like me?

>>1865938
Do you know how digital logic works yet?
If not, you should get a book on digital logic first, learn how combinatorial logic and state machines work.
(I was taught out of Digital Logic for Computing by John Seiffertt, but there are other cheaper books out there. I hear that "The Elements of Computing Systems: Building a Modern Computer from First Principles" is quite good, but I've not read it.)
After that you could learn Verilog or VHDL.

>>1865944
Nah, all I know are basic circuits from an introductory physics class. I'll take a look at those books and topics you recommended. ty anon

>>1865970
Once you understand combinatorial logic, flip-flops/latches (SR, JK, D, and T), sequential logic / state machines, and DeMorgan's law, you'll be well on your way.
Karnaugh maps are also useful to know, since they're a easy way to reduce a truth table into a logical equation, even though that's usually automatically done for you by FPGA design tools.

Once you get a handle on digital logic, try this free online game:
http://nandgame.com/
It'll be a good test for how well you understand the basics.

>>1865980
Any thoughts on nand2tetris?
https://www.nand2tetris.org/

>>1866033
That's the companion website to "The Elements of Computing Systems: Building a Modern Computer from First Principles"

Is it worth it to get a logic analyzer (and/or oscilloscope) to help debug? Anyone have any experience with this? I often feel lost as to why my hardware isn't working, and I think having something that can help me sanity check would be nice.

>>1867547
Do you testbench your cose?

Are there any FPGAs that are affordable and could run a CPU powerful enough for basic browsing?

If so, what OS should you run to take full advantage of the no backdoorness?

>>1867547
Buying a cheap 2 channel scope was one of the best things I've done. But for high speeds like memory interfaces, scopes get stupid expensive. I have survived doing that by careful board layout, good hdl simulations, and then tweaking clock phase shifts until data errors stop, and setting the final phase shift in the middle of the error free window.

>>1833913
>lichee pi
>fpga
Wrong. It's a Cortex-7 board.

>>1867580
A modern browser with a soft cpu core, id lean towards no. A Spartan 7 should be able to do better than a full 486 or Pentium level PC from the mid 90s. You won't be able to hit GHz, or probably even 300mhz for a soft cpu in today's lower end FPGAs. A 200+MHz RISC with a modestly accelerated framebuffer, Ethernet, audio and lots of io should fit an artix7 100 with some space left over.

>>1867593
But that would be more than enough to run a Linux distribution and some sort of simple browser. You won't be on YouTube.

>>1833654
The atmegas aren't FPGAs you fucking retard

>>1867685
https://store.arduino.cc/arduino-mkr-vidor-4000

>>1867576
Yes, I do.

https://www.edaplayground.com/

If you want to play around with different simulators and your testbenches

why is this general so angry and hurtful :(

I just made an AES128 ip on FPGA tell me i'm a smart boy uwu

is there a noob level op post like /ohm/?

>>1868628
>I'm new to FPGAs. Where to get started?
An understanding of digital logic is required. While you're learning digital logic, you will also be learning a HDL (hardware description language) to describe the digital logic you are interested in.
Just from a quick google search for those who know nothing:
https://learn.sparkfun.com/tutorials/digital-logic/all

>Any resources for learning?
Here are some free textbooks that seem useful, they all seem to directly reference FPGA programming:
https://link.springer.com/book/10.1007/978-3-319-92804-3
https://link.springer.com/book/10.1007/978-3-319-53883-9
https://link.springer.com/book/10.1007/978-3-319-34195-8

>Project ideas:
https://www.fpga4fun.com/
https://hackaday.io/projects?tag=FPGA
https://www.fpga4student.com/p/fpga-projects.html

>Starter equipment
Beats me, I have a DE1-SoC, I've also seen people with boards like:
https://store.digilentinc.com/fpga-for-beginners/

>Related YouTube channels:
https://www.youtube.com/c/Nandland
https://www.youtube.com/c/EevblogDave
https://www.youtube.com/c/SimplyEmbedded

If anyone wants to change this, feel free.

>>1868899
Oh shit, forgot something
>Software
You will most likely be using an Intel (formerly Altera) or Xilinx FPGA. Both companies support free IDEs that will cover all your needs. Intel uses Quartus, while Xilinx uses Vivado.

>>1868899
You could also put together a small FAQ, just as in /ham/.