/diy/ - Do It Yourself

This sounds awesome! Please, enlighten us!

>>17318
I dont use an anvil either. I use a piece of railroad rail. That shit is harder than nails...get it :D

>>17318
Yes. Do this. Please.

howdy! homegrown blacksmith here. made my own forge (i call it mad max, it looks like a contraption from the movie) for about 50 bucks. burns anthracite coal, uses a hair dryer as a blower (bellows, w/e). anvil wise, i got a 2 foot section of railroad track that works just dandy! easy build, pics soon.

ok, so start... what can i make without an anvil or a forge? can i make knives? swords? decoration?

go ahead...

>>17318
>£50
>$600

When building your forge it's great if you can start with a BBQ, if not a could of bricks laid out across the floor or a table should do fine for your base.

Once you have your base sorted you're going to want to, using normal house bricks, section off three sides keeping it the same size as what you plan of heating up, if that makes sense. So if you wanted to heat up a metal pole to make a knife you'd only want a very narrow, about 4 inches wide, gap between the walls of brick.

Rule of thumb, make the gap about twice as wide as what you plan on forging.

There you have your self a very simple yet massively effective forge.
Next post I'll talk about what to burn and how to heat it up enough.

>>17347

Ive made knives and swords...but with an anvil and a forge

>>17347
>what can i make without an anvil or a forge?

You can make anything you're capable of smacking a piece of metal into with a hammer or a rock.
So anything from abstract art, to paperweights, to doorstops.

Any of you guys tried making rings or other such things. I've always been interested in doing this but never figured I had what I needed like a mandrel to use to size out stuff for example.

>>17402
See >>16558 for mail

For fuel you want to use Charcoal.
Brickettes are total shit and will spit at you and shit, so keep away from them.

Coal works fine but takes much longer to get going.

If you want to make your own charcoal it's easy enough. Get a tin of quality street or something and stab a few holes on the top. chock it full of wood, as much as possible, and leave it in a fire - BBQ will do fine, or, as I do, make a fire separate to your 'forge' and make charcoal as you burn it.

So you have your 'forge' and your fuel.
Now you need some 'bellows'.

Gonna have to reach deep for a second here in to the wallet.
$5, get yourself a hair dryer, $2, a copper pipe (1 m) and 2$ a real of duct tape.
See where this is going?

Drill some holes, about 20, in the bottom of the pipe, small ones; think tooth picks, and make the same end flat with no gap, or as little as possible. This can be done easily enough buy heating it up and hammering lightly on some concrete or something. Attach the other end to the hair dryer using duct tape. and there you have it, a 'bellow'.

Bury the pipe deep in the charcoal and only start blowing once the fire is going well.
when there's a good stock of glowing shit in the fire you're good to stick your steal in.

keep going, this looks interesting

Not OP, just wanted an excuse to post my anvil

Are you the apprentice blacksmith that helped that girl do the science fair project on the Scottish hill forts?! If you are, kudos. If not, nevermind and carry on.

i like coal, burns longer. haha by charcoal he means natural hardwood charcoal, or lump charcoal. its just charred wood. it works decent, its good to learn on, and heats fast! i use it to start my coal.
here's my setup, forge on left. i have other pics, but theyre older, and the forge is resting on sawhorses insulated by brick in those pics. since then (as you can see) its on a wooden table (it works, dont judge me :P )

There are two paths you can choose here... One is Much, much, much better than the other.

Railroad rail. If you can get your hands on this shit you're sorted. It's hard as balls and doesn't require any work. beat away.

If you can't get your hands on any, don't panic... Well, sulk a bit, but there is hope.

Get your hands on some steal, think I beams, and throw that in your fire after attaching a long chain to it(we'll use this chain to get it back out). Heat it up for what will most likely be $20 of charcoal and about 2 hours. Once it's glowing, give it a few more minuets and, using a magnet on a stick, check to see if it's magnetic. If it's lost it's magnetism - you're good to go on to the next paragraph. If not, keep heating, keep bellowing. I know this part is a wanker.

Get yourself a bucket and fill it with cooking oil - this is pricey but will last years and you'll need it later anyway. Using the chain (being careful not to burn yourself) lift it up and dunk it into the oil. There will be flames. Wait about a minuet and then pull it out. Hopefully it's still in once piece.

At this point you have to use your oven - another wanker of a step. - throw your I beam in there on Gas mark 5 (like 220 degrees) and leave it there for hours, I'm thinking about 4 or 5.
Turn the over off and let it cool over night. This is now hardened. Well done.

If you really don't want to do this step, you can dodge it and just use the I beam.

is there some easy way to go about getting railroad rail?

To place your 'anvil' you want to get it on something that won't shift when you hit and won't crack either.

If you stand naturally, arm at your side, the heigh of your hand is wear you want to top of your 'anvil'.

I used some bolted timber, this one's up to you, what ever works.
If you used the I-beam path then you have the problem of making it stand well. All I can say is good luck coming up with something. I should say you want to stand it like this...

___
_|_

The top is your 'anvil'.

>>17522

>Get your hands on some steal, think I beams,

wow, what the hell?

>>17318
I'm interested in that kind of things.
Could you mention about problems and dangers along? (i've read your paragraph about charcoal, and instantly i thought: carbon monoxyde, correct or wrong?)
Thanks.

>>17560
he means steel, I beam is a beam thats in the shape of a capital i

>>17561

>GTFO

>>17547
I have no idea sorry.
May be some just laying in an old rail way station or something?
I wasn't so lucky and so started on the I-beam. It hardly works but it got me going, haha.

So, to summarise we have.

>Brick forge
>Charcoal / Coal
>Oil bucket
>Railway / shitty I-beam Anvil
>Hair dryer Bellows

That's pretty much it.
Get yourself some heat resistant gloves and and a hammer and away you go.

>>17560
It's what I sued, it sort of worked.

>>17578
awesome, very tempted to have a go, would also be able to maybe post a few beginner projects or ideas?

>>17561
I've had no problems with fumes from this stuff. I don't wear a mask and never feel uncomfortable with the smell.

I got a nasty burn in my face when using brickettes instead of charcoal, they spit everywhere when you turn on the hair dryer.

And The heat resistant gloves make you feel invincible. The way the work is they just delay the heat reaching you. So be careful about that.

That's it for safety really - careful, shits hot.
--

I'll say some general tips net post.

>>17561

Carbon monoxide shouldn't really be an issue if you do it in a ventilated area, since enough oxygen would ensure that it is completely combusted.

>diy blacksmithing

This board is the greatest thing moot has ever done for humanity.

pic related

>>17600
Carry on
Also, hammer tips and types?

brb going to make big ass swords

I know this sounds a bit harder than maybe tongs or something but it'll teach you everything you need to know for all kinds of blacksmithing, not just bladesmithing.
(You need tongs too)

Get your hands on some steal, I don't care how or where. You can buy steal off line or you can use just random steal you've found.
(Leaf springs from cars work well for larger projects like swords)

Cut your steal to size using a circular saw if you have one, If you don't, green text.
>Heat up as much of the bar as possible (using bellows)
>Place a Thin bit of steal at the right length, at right angles to
>Hammer the thin part in.
>Repeat until you can 'snap' the heated steal.

Now you have the right size bar, get the fire started and heat it up, using the 'bellows'.
Take it to the 'anvil' and hammer the shit out of it. This parts pretty brute - just get the shape right flatten out the blade part and square up the handle.

take care not to snap the steal, never hammer if you're unsure if it's hot enough, don't waste your effort this far for a few $ of charcoal.

Now you have the general shape it gets harder - much harder.
As in Ms paint diagram hard... I'll be right with you.

>>17665
its

STEEL

as in, "the man of steel"

thank you for your attention, carry on.

keep this shit bumped mother fuckers

What do you guys think of induction furnaces? Will having that be cheaper than traditional coal furnaces?

>>17600
>>17609
Thanks

How have you not killed yourself yet?
Also, bump

Working on the handle now, you want to, as seen in the picture, extend the handle, getting thinner all the way. Feeling confident? green text.

> Heat the handle up like a mother fucker.
> Get two Wrenches/ Grips
> One at the top of the handle - one at the bottom
> Twist in opposite directions to create a spiral in the handle.

With the handle being about 250% larger than you want it to be, bend it back on it's self as seen in the picture.
TAKE CARE - Don't go folding the handle towards the blade, I do that shit all the time.

Once you get that handle curve finished you need to do something with that point.
I go with a swirly look but if you don't feel confident doing that you can fold it back using grips/ Wrenches.

Handle finished!
(If it's too big/ small undo the bend before trying again and heat it up more than usual, need to get rid of any stresses)

OP, do you have pics of your completed wares?

keep this thread alive, it is amazing.

>>17742
what kind of diameter of steel would you need to make lets say a sword about a meter long, and how would you make the blade symmetrical?

>>17757
I might... It depends if I deleted them off my camera or not, I'll look for you after I finished this little tutorial.

The blade is pretty tricky.
First of all you need to shift it forwards, the reason? You'll see when you do it, not convinced? Green text, I guess.
>When you make the bevels the steel at the edge will be thinner
>So when you hammer it down the thinner steel will spread out more than the ticker steel
>This will make the blade fold backwards (Like a schimitar, I guess)

A bit like the shape in my picture but you'll need it about the same amount as the desired curve, just added on to the original... Fuck it, i don't even know how to describe this.. about as much as you can bent a ruler with out it snapping should be fine.

Now you need to be careful here... Holding the knife at an angle of 5 - 15 degrees to the 'anvil' hammer down, close to the edge. This'll take a while and isn't worth rushing. Take care to keep the angle you hold it to the anvil the same each time and not to hit the blade into the anvil, but against it. (To avoid it folding over on it's self)

This part will be easier once you're behind the wheel - just think logically bearing in mind that the thinner steal will spread more.

Once you have the general blade shape - clean it up as much as you can. Level out the back, if you like and try to make the tip look presentable.

I'll do the heat treating now.
This next separates 'knife' and 'lump of steal'

>>17717
explain? (i honestly ask)

>>17798
I would say about 15 mm thick,
150 cm long and as wide as you want it really.

You have to think that the steel ain't going anywhere, only shifting from place to place.

A few things to keep in mind is that you want the balance of the sword to be about 6 inches from the cross guard and you'll want to steel to go right to the pummel, or bottom of the handle.
Handles are often longer than you'd expect them to be with swords.

>>17836
I've never really come into a place where I could get hurt badly.
I keep my distance from the forge when the hair dryer is on, take care not to drop the steel and all that. (All be it now I have a proper forge and anvil [still use the old BBQ trick for larger projects])

Where do you think the danger would be?

>>17665
>Leaf springs from cars

wtf kinda antique cars've you been melting?

This thread interests me.
Have you got any tips on pattern welding?

>>17871

Trucks would be a better phrasing. A few packs of springs will do a shit ton of swords. You can harden the edges with used motor oil too.

>>17871
American auto industry is a bit slow.

>>17547
Not sure now, but before, I used to find railroad rails just lying next to the railroads.

The thing is that they were in like, 20-50 feet lengths, so it would be pretty hard to take one home, and many of them were taken by vultures when metal prices spiked.

Trucks use leaf springs because they can hold much more weight than coil springs. You wont find any heavy duty vehicles with coil springs.

>>17871
brand new corvettes still have a monoleaf front suspension, not unlike what you would find on an old timey wagon.

SOMEONE ARCHIVE THIS SHIT!!!

If you fancy cheating a bit and giving it a once over on the bench ginder, do that now.

For heat treating what you need to do is throw your knife in the forge and wait until it glows all over. The blade is the most important part to get hot. When you think you have it hot enough pull it out and let it cool down slowly at air temp. This will remove any built up stresses in the blade (The handle curve and that)

Throw it back it, get it way hot again, pull it out and using a magnet (neodymium is suggested) stuck to your grips test to see if it sticks to the blade at all. If the blade is at all magnetic put it back in.

Once there is no magnetism stick it back in for two more minuets and ready yourself for the biggest wanker of all. Grab that knife and dip it in your oil, nice and quick - don't let any part of it cool down faster than the rest. provided you do it right it should be ok - it may shatter if you're too slow dipping it in. Hold it in there nice and long - 20 seconds.

It's now a sheet of glass. That shit touches anything it will break.

Take it up to your kitchen and wrap it in some tin foil, nice and tight. Pre-heat your oven to 210 - 230 and place it in there for about 2 hours.
Pull it out and let it cool naturally. You have your self a knife, all be it a blunt one.

You can sharpen it on an oil stone, then a wet stone, then a strop.
Or you can cheat a bit like I do and get it on the grinder and then strop it.

A Lanyard on the handle can add a few mm on if it's a bit small.
If it's too big you can tie a lanyard really tight around it and pull it in a bit - it should be a bit flexible.

>>17880
Tried my first attempt just last weak actually.
it went ok but really not anything I would feel ok giving advice about.

Just make sure you're generous with your flux and try to avoid it cooling naturally as this will make it flake... I think.

>>17871
Sorry, should of said.
I use landrover leaf springs.
The scrapie around these parts will sell you two for £10, which is a steal. (Heh, get it?)

Some pro tips.
>Bring a jug with you, shit's thirsty work.
>Hose your arms down if you get to hot.
>Take your gloves off now and again to avoid your hand baking in them
>you don't need to be that buff to black smith - I was a twig when I started and you still wouldn't call me 'built'.

and when you buy your first anvil be sure to ask.
'If you hit it the top with a hammer lightly, does the hammer bounce back?"
If they say yes, it means the anvil is harder, or as hard as the hammer. This is what we want.
If they say no, it's a bad anvil. Either poorly made in the first place or they fucked it up with a bonfire at some point.
Steer clear.

What do you think of oil burners? I have one built that will hold a flame, but I still need a decent blower.

What do you recommend for refractory? I live in south florida and there is no furnaces, boilers, or any type of industry I could get it from.

>>18028
I never come across an oil burner before, I can't see why it wouldn't work. I'm pretty rough and tumble with this stuff, no expert by far.

I live in a small city on the coast of Wales - fish about and I'm sure you can find some heat bricks.
Is there a local 'east-coast' black smiting forum you could ask on?

And I found some shots.
I'll dump a few now.

First to come - leaf springs.

I was wondering who would beat me to the punch.

Did you start from Weygers' book too?

A shot of my recently bought anvil and a kukuri style knife I was working on, made from the leaf springs.

The two thongs you can see there I made from some rebar using the shity I-beam anvil and charcoal forge I mentioned.

>>18118
Nah, I held it off for years and got into knife craft using grinders and the like. I showed them off a bit on a forum and form there I got inspired to try blacksmithing.

A shot of my forge. It cost £300 and uses propane gas - standard stuff. Does the trick well and saves me a lot of time. A bit small at times though.

>>17710
They're useful, but take a LOT of electricity. You'd need your shop wired for 3 phase 240vt at least.

The benefits of induction forges are that you get really localized heats, and that's about it. They don't heat large areas well, and they suck huge amounts of electricity.

And hears a shot of a knife I made - the very same I walked you all through.

>>18123
>>18162
>>18140
>>18102
These are awesome! Thanks for sharing, dude.

>>18174
No problem. I'm glad you like them.
The knife in the last shot was made from 13mm silver steel bar. If you're willing to pay I'd go with silver steal. It's pretty cheap and much easier to work with.

>>18189
What about 4040 steel? Good enough or a no-go?

>>18198
Whoops, I meant 440 steel.

>>18140
I feel your pain, my hotbox is rather small, and the liner needs to be replaced. I am tempted to replace/retune the burner as well, it's too oxidizing for my taste.

Lucky you in Wales, I suppose it's not too terribly difficult for you to look up Owen Bush.

>>18028

ABANA is your friend. Look them up, they might have a charter in your area of Florida, and those folks will have contacts to major industrial suppliers (probably Grainger or McMaster-Karr). If you're just looking for tools, The Blacksmith Depot has some good ones, and Northern Tool surprisingly carries some as well.

>>18198
Should work fine - maybe a bit of a pain to heat it up good and proper.

Here's another shot of me bending the handle 'round. How you'd do that without the anvil horn? I've no idea.

>>18189
dude thanks a bunch for posting this, gunna start trying some of this stuff myself. luckily i live on a farm so there's plenty of space to test and learn.

i tried making a sword when i was maybe 12 by hammering a steel pipe and sharpening the edges for a blade, but now i have both money and experience gunna try doing it the proper way

>>18230
Bending fork or scrolling tongs.

>>18237
Best of luck to you!
Be sure to post your shots on /diy/ afterwards.
Would love to see what comes out!

For a sword, don't harden it. just let it cool down nice and slow. You want it to be as felxable as possible.

>>18242
Makes sense - thanks.

I've been really interested in getting into making pattern welded steel blades, lately, specifically celtic styled blades with damascus-like steel. any tips for that? which kinds of steel are best for it?

>>18242
Actually, to add further to that, you could even get away with using a pipe, inserting the tang into it, bending quickly, then removing the pipe. Afterwards, a couple of taps to adjust it would work.

Or you could use the pipe itself as a bick- stick it in your post vice, form the bend you want, and continue working.

>>18278
Start small, work with knives for a while. When you can forgeweld reliably and cleanly, then you can start mucking about with it.

What country do you live in? I stress this because different countries have different terminologies for steels. If in the States, you could get away with 1075/1095 and 15n20, it makes for good contrast.

>>18269

Ignore the statement about not hardening it. You will want to harden it, and then temper it based on its use- a rapier would probably do well to be drawn to a spring temper, whereas a broadsword would want a bronze or peacock temper. The hardness you want varies on its applications, materials, and manufacture. This takes lots of practice to do well.

Also, start with knives for a while. Big blades are trouble waiting to happen if you're inexperienced.

>>18278
I really wouldn't know sorry. As I said before I'm pretty new to the whole pattern welding thing myself.
Once I get some time off university I'll give it a second shot and take pictures all the way though for you guys - keep an eye out.

Here's an earlier shot of my first good knife I made on the anvil. Notice to curve in the blade? That's where I didn't push it forwards enough so when I did the bevel it swung back.

I took the handle to the grinder afterwards and tried to make the curve look intended by curving the handle.

Loving the guide.

Out of interest, where bouts in Wales you in?

>>18315
South coast.

>>18309
I live in canada. I'm likely to have the money for this within a couple of years as well as I'm going into the Navy, and I'll be paid pretty goddamned well.
I plan, a few years down the line when I actually know what I'm doing, to build a studio to make furniture and celtic styled gear, maybe a bit of art deco stuff as well(I'm very into steampunk, yeah yeah i know a lot of people hate it but when it's done properly and.or subtly it looks amazing), and possibly sell some of it.

>>18327
Then you should be fine with US steel terminology. Look to Grainger for tools, ABANA membership gives you discounts.

I don't remember if Canada has a specific blacksmithing group, but I'm fairly certain ABANA has you covered there. You'll definitely want to start small if you're working up to pattern welding (indeed, that and crucible steel blades is a goal of mine, one of several). Just focus on basic forging techniques for a while- I'm not even a journeyman according to CalSmith, but I'm getting there. Expect to make a lot of nails, they're good practice.

What part of Canada? There are a few people up there that do some schooling- I know of a school in BC and a school in Ontario. Darrel Wareham is in... I want to say Nova Scotia? I'd need to double check.

Hopefully soon I'll be able to post pictures of an iron smelt, whenever an associate of mine sets a date for it. We did it in July, I have some photos floating around there.

just wanted throw this out there.
Walk along a railroad track for a few miles, have a nice little hike. about 10mi~ away from my home there is a barred off dirt access road that leads along the tracks for about 5 miles. usually, every 2-3 miles there is a small pile of rusty railroad tracks, which Im assuming are used as replacements if any of them break/get misaligned.

Invested 10$ in a boltcutter at harbor freight, cut off the lock, threw it into bushes, drove my truck down and got 3 rails with the help of a friend. drove off with enough for a few cheap "anvils" Works well if you get a plasma cutter (oxyacet works too) and cut them into 3 foot lengths, only problem we have is they are slightly convex curved, so unless we focus things come out slightly curved. the new tracks on the rails are perfectly flat, but we realllly didnt want to take them off the track. replacing them would be even more illegal than just taking old ones.

captcha: erect railed.

>>18327
Torontofag here bro steampunk is awesome.

I guess i have to raid some railyards soon can't wait to try this.

>>18376
Amusingly enough, I'm living in ontario. I'm from London and I'll be going to school in Niagara Falls, and after that I'll be stationed either in Halifax, Nova Scotia, or Victoria, BC.
Hopefully victoria. Looks gorgeous out there and the weather will help my girlfriend's leg.

>>18431
Just grind 'em flat, or fill the hollows with welding rod, THEN grind it flush.

Alexander Weygers (rest in peace) has a book that details the shaping of railroad track into a rough anvil, and from thence hardening its face. You could probably get away with using it in its default state- I've used a mild steel anvil before, it's not perfect, but it works.

>>18451
Victoria is beautiful. If you get BC, then I will direct you to- http://www.viblacksmiths.com/ .

They're pretty active from what I can tell.

If/When you head back to London, there is BABA, the British Artist Blacksmith Association, counterpart to ABANA, the Artist Blacksmith Association of North America.

keep it going! I am interested.

watching this, i think i found my all time favorite thread on chan.

>>18520
Thanks.
London, Ontario?
I didn't know we had a blacksmith association here or I'd have been doing this shit years ago!

>>18530
I've not got much else to say really - any questions I'll answer as best I can.

And thank you everyone for your support - it's great knowing I'm helping people.

>>18549

You mind making a word doc or a PDF of all this?

Or maybe a Blogspot or a Wordpress site? You could post updates there for archiving.

>>18530
In that case...

Here's a picture of a furnace stack about to be preheated. We're smelting iron from sand here, boys.

>>18565
I could throw it all into a pretty word doc and upload it to media fire if you hang for 5/10.

I'm not one too keep up with blog updates so I wont bother making any false promises there.

>>18545
Thought you meant London in the Isles, not in Canada. WHOOPSIE.

Anyways, next is a shot of the plug at the bottom of the furnace. I called it a clay potato, because it looked like one. The plug is removable for tapping slag.

>>18588

That's cool.

make an assvil

>>18590
Here's a shot of the tuyere. It's made from copper sheet (1/4" thick) forged into a cone, and hooked up to a set of pipes. There is a cap at the end- removable, for poking around in there- with a lens embedded in it so we could keep an eye on how it was going on in there. The lens is from a welding mask, if I remember correctly.

The tuyere is connected to an electric blower. With enough air moving through the tuyere, it stays cool while also serving to increase the overall temperature of the furnace when it's going full tilt (more air = more oxidizer for COMBUSTION!) The reasoning behind using a copper tuyere is simple- while it might melt and contaminate the bloom, it won't break like a ceramic tuyere, so it's reusable.

>>18640
Here's the top of the stack. It's not quite hot enough yet, since there is smoke- when it's at operating temperature, there is no smoke at all since it burns it all off before it can escape.

awesome thread guys, im going to build this forge this weekend, wont probably take me more than a day

>>18549

Hold up a minute, guy.

Before we start making weapons, shouldn't we make some better blacksmithing tools?

What could we make, and how can we make it?

>>18658
When smelting bloom iron, you typically want to have a little slag in the bottom of the furnace when you start out- it helps to capture the iron as it welds to itself, and bring it together.

Pic related, it's slag. If you look closely, you can see some metallic oxides on the surface.

>>18670
My first 3 things I made was two pair's of tongs, one with a circle grip and one with a flat grip and a coal poker thing.

It's easy enough to do - I used re-bar for all three.

Flat tongs first.
>Cut it to size
>Hammer the ends flat on each
>>Taking care that they will meet.
>Hammer the point the pivot will go flat
>>Taking care that the ends will meet.
>Use a drill and bang it a bolt.

Circle grip tongs now.
Flat tongs first.
>Cut it to size
>Hammer the back on them selves in a compact U shape
>Using the horn and a random metal pole and hammer the curves in each.
>Hammer the point the pivot will go flat
>>Taking care that the ends will meet.
>Use a drill and bang it a bolt.

>>18670
Yes, you'd want to, but you're more likely to just start out with making basic shapes before you make tools. My first tool was a screwdriver.

Here's a shot down the tuyere, The welding mask lens changes the color a bit, BUUUUT you can make out the nail acting as a peg to hold the tuyere in place, along with the eye-searing brightness of a fire burning at ~2400 degrees Fahrenheit.

>>17318
http://thepiratebay.org/torrent/4675134/Knifemaking_Unplugged-Lively_Forge

Here's a great place to start. Even if you dont want to make knives, this video shows you how to make forges and anvils very cheaply.

here's another great resource
http://thepiratebay.org/torrent/4693328/Wayne_Goddard_s_-_50_Dollar_Knife_Shop_-_Original_Edition

so if you dont have a grinding wheel is there any kind of jerryrigging that can be done to make one yourself? how much does a grinding wheel cost? and I have seen some people with belt sanders used as their primary grinding would this work well?

>>18434
>>18431
Word of advice to anyone thinking about going out and nicking some rail lengths.

One. Don't be an idiot. Don't be seen, and don't let anyone know what you found or where you got it. We wouldn't want a bunch of scrappers swooping in and ruining the fun for the rest of us.

Two. If it's lying in a pile near some ditch somewhere, fine, take it. It'll probably be rail that they've already replaced, but didn't care enough to cart off, and just left there.
Just don't go tearing up rail that's still in place, even if the line is officially abandoned. Every bit of rail that's torn up is one more bit of rail that can't eventually be re-activated, or bought and used by a Railroad Museum, or something.

Also...
>only problem we have is they are slightly convex curved
Duh. It's not due to wear and tear either, the edges are supposed to be rounded like that. Look at a train car's wheels once, they're not perfect discs -- they're slightly bowl-shaped. It helps lead the wheelsets into the curve because (physics that I can't be bothered to explain here, look it up if you're interested)

But anyway. If you really need a flat surface, can't you just turn the thing upside-down, build some sort of u-shaped trench to sit it in, and use the bottom side of the rail?

>>18727
This is the base of the furnace with the plug removed, after we had it running for a while.

>>18727
Here's the base of the furnace with the plug removed. It's been running for a short while, so we're about to check the slag content.

>>18745 Look up Weyger's book. It has everything you need to start out. Everything. How to make your forge, your anvil, your grinder, your buffer, your drill press, et al.

>>18745
My first bench grinder (if you can call it that) was £15.
$23 in your world, I'd assume.

Use what ever works is what I'd say. A bastard file saw me fine in my first few months.

Althight - I gotta little word doc, how do I upload this shit?

>>18772
Slaaaaaaaag.

http://www(dot)mediafire.com/?ahcf967defid3dn

Here we are.
This thread in a nut shell - or at least my parts.

>>18786
I appreciate you uploading these but would it be possible for you to re-size them? I'm not checking 4chan on my TV afterall and these pictures are huge.

thank you a lot

>>18779
I don't personally have any pictures of the ore charges- I was too busy mixing it- but we used about 4lbs of ore mixed with 1lb of white playground sand and 4oz of CaCO3.

Here, however, is a pretty picture. FIRE. FIRE GOOD.

>>18805
Sure.

We charged the furnace every 10 minutes with the aforementioned mixture. The playground slag and calcium carbonate are for slag content.

Unfortunately, towards the end of the smelt we started to have a problem. That black-grey stuff you see coming out of the front of the furnace? That's unreacted ore. It turns out that the bloom had fixed itself to the side of the furnace and was so large it was blocking the ore from reaching down to the base of the stack where it could react. When we started to dislodge the bloom with a sounding rod (rebar), lots of unreacted ore came out.

>>18891
Nice re-size.

>>18891
Just want to say - you're amazing.
It's 3:15 and I'm up at 10:00 tomorrow...
I just can't stop reading! <3

>>18891

Just want to say - you're amazing.
It's 3:15 and I'm up at 10:00 tomorrow...
I just can't stop reading!

this should be stickied.

as an example of what this board should be.

>>18891
Fuck, I did it wrong. Got it right on this one.

Here is a picture of the bloom. Jeff and Jim wrestled it out, and it was so large that the door to the furnace had to be knocked out to accommodate it. All in all, with its slag crust it weighed about 40lbs.

Bicyclefag from /n/ reporting in. This is relevant to my interests.

>>18955
GOD DAMNIT I DID IT AGAIN.

I cannot into computers tonight. Fuck it, full size. Haters gonna hate.

>>18937
yeah i agree with that, i gotta get me some sleep but i hope this thread is still going tomorrow and if not i would love it if we could have more like it.

always wanted to try this out but never knew how to start with it but with these guides im gunna give it a go.

Okay, here we go. Brace yourselves, since I can't seem to get it to resize properly in Paint.

hey Op. I would be interested in forgin a katana. have you ever attempted this urself?

>>18993
Not OP. What country you in? US? I know Jesus Hernandez makes some, look him up.

Anyways, here are Jeff (left) and Jim (right) rough forging the bloom. They're spalling off the larger pieces of slag in an effort to consolidate the bloom. In its natural, unworked state, the bloom is very spongy... like sponge cake.

>>18993
No I haven't.
Done hammons on my knives before though.
Before you throw it in the oven put clay on it (About 5mm)

(This other guy in the thread knows much more than me - I hope he'll answer your question)

Katanas are ruined by weabos...
I have one in my room and a friend came in;
"AWH MAN - THATS ONE OF THOSE KATANAS. THEY'RE LIKE THE SHARPEST SWORD EVER!! Did you know they can cut though almost anything!"

>>19011
Here's a shot of it after thwacking it some. As I said, it's very porous and spongy.

I'm off to sleep now guys.
Thanks for the awesome hang out.

OP, you read my fucking mind. I was going to start a thread asking about cheap ways to get into smithing.

You're fucking awesome. I friend tells me he's seen some anvils at a flea market, I'm going to go get an idea of prices this weekend(stuff there is usually stupid cheap).

>>19016
You can get a hamon via differential hardening or tempering. Hardening is the clay method, where you paint the blade with a clay slurry to insulate it during the quench, retarding the conversion of the steel from austinite into martensite. Differential tempering is where you temper the blade to the desired edge hardness (usually in an oven), then immersing the part of the cutting edge you want to stay hard in water to remain cool while you draw the temper on the back with a blowtorch.

As a beginner, I'd shy away from differential hardening for a while. It takes a lot of practice to get it to not warp, and while you can do some straightening in the tempering process... I'd practice a lot.

You also can't (to my knowledge) do both a differential hardening and tempering on the same piece. At least, I've never tried- it might be possible.

ANYWAYS...

Here is the ONE good picture I have of Jeff working the bloom under a power hammer (in this case, a Nazel 4b).

>>19027
interesting stuff..

so let me make sure i have this in my mind the right way.
You cook up the iron-bearing sand or metal-containing rock bits and melt away/burn up much of the rock and mess.

You end up with a big sponge of metal and slag. You hammer and pound and heat and hammer more this iron, breaking up and breaking away slag, until you more or less have a piece of metal that can be worked with? and That is wrought-iron?

>>18993
No OP, but I'll throw some info at you.

As I understand it, the curve is actually a result of the heat tempering. Clay is placed on the back of the blade and the edge of left bare, so when it's plunged in the water, the edge hardens but the body remain soft, and the contraction of the edge causes the blade to curve and in some cases even crack(meaning you'd have to start all over).

So you'd need clay and large basin for tempering.

IIRC, the fuller is usually added after forging, but I could be wrong.

Anyone who knows more, feel free to elaborate/correct.

You guys and your railroad anvils and barbecue forges claiming that's beginner equipment- although don't get me wrong it is indeed okay to start with.

Basic blacksmithing can be done with as little as an ordinary campfire on a breezy day, with nothing more than a heavy plate of metal or even a flat rock as the anvil. Just take care to build the fire such that the wind howls through it, driving the embers inside to an orange-yellow. I still use these methods when travelling to repair my camping equipment, some 10 years later after learning blacksmithing.

I actually use pine slabwood as the fuel for my forge, and with it can achieve temperatures so hot that the steel melts. The trick to it is being able to arrange the fire such that it rapidly produces a thick bed of coals in a place where enough air is whipped through it to raise the temperature.

As long as you have a way of reaching the required temperatures using whatever you have to work with, you can use that as a forge to learn at least the basics. A good forge is really only required for more advanced techniques.

As for Anvils, the object of your search is simple: It needs to be sturdy and rigid, capable of backing up your hammer blows with a flat surface that provides the stiffness of the earth.

Later on if you decide you like it, then worry about constructing a proper forge or buying an anvil.

Just beware when searching for anvils- many cheap anvils are in fact Cast Iron. These anvils while functional will quickly become damaged and useless for quality work, as well as having a high likelyhood of cracking in use or giving poor performance.

>>19072
That is bloom iron, not wrought iron, there is a slight difference- while both have a notable slag content, bloom iron is even more buttery underneath the hammer, and doesn't get red-short like wrought- you can work it at high and low temps, it doesn't care.

What happens in the furnace is the ore reaches forge welding temperatures and starts to stick to itself. As the pieces gather, they keep welding into a big mass, usually containing bits of slag and even charcoal.

At this smelt, the bloom was worked without reheating to condense it a bit. We left it to cool, and I assume Jim worked with it the next day.

He would have to carefully stack the smaller bits and pieces that broke off, probably wired them together, and then forge welded them together.

>>19080

You actually described the quench, but yeah, pretty much.

What happens when you quench it is that the clay retards the spine from cooling as fast. As such, the austenite of the hot steel is converted to martensite on the edge, and pearlite on the body and spine. This leaves you with a hard edge and a softer body.

Afterwards, you temper it to the desired hardness, which also relieves stress from the quench.

There are also other ways of hardening steel.

>llyingU Frankish

I guess I could be, Catpcha, my ancestors were from Germany.

Entire thread => archive

So, does anyone want to pick my brains while I'm here? I still have some photos from the smelt- pictures of a bearded axe from Latvia, dated to the Viking age.

>>17560
walk along the side of the railroad and keep walking until you find what you want. it'll be somewhere. perseverance is important

>>17929
people always say "ARCHIVE THIS" but they never do it. it's really not that hard to do. save the page as an HTML file, or take the relevant posts and put them in a text file, or put the posts/images into a JPG. this is /do it yourself/ after all, why do you want other people to do the archiving for you??

>>18431
you want to fucking plasma cut sections of installed rail? and the only thing discouraging you from doing this is the risk of getting caught? jesus god almighty you are the biggest jackass ever. it's bad enough that you're jacking actual replacement rails with a purpose (i.e. not scrap and waste), but to literally DESTROY PARTS OF A WORKING RAIL SYSTEM is to bring yourself into an entirely new realm of rudeness. you need to consider the effects of your actions before you do them. not even gonna get started on busting into the access road. just... christ god, man

>>19209
Post those pics man

>>19221
Oh dear pardon my unintentional sage
>>19209
Also I'd be interested in tips for crafting plate armor.

>>19156
don't know if anyone's posted this yet but when you want to see if an anvil is shitty or not a good thing to do is to drop a steel ball onto the face and see how high it bounces - about thirty percent of the drop height is respectable. the shitty chinese cast iron doorstops will give you about ten percent.

also holy shit you are good at steel

>>19237
For fucks sakes 4chan plus hates me today

>>19237
Haha, no worries mate.

First shot, profile shot.

>>19254
You can't really make it out from this shot, but there's a weld seam at the back of the eye.

To answer your question on plate- I've not done much dishing or repousse. You'd need a ball stake- a 3" trailer ball hitch works well-, several different planishing and dishing hammers, a dishing donut or hardwood stump, a sandbag or two, and hearing protection. A lot of that stuff is done COLD, not HOT, so it's very tiring if you're a beginner.

why am i reading OP's posts in a foghorn leghorn voice

>>19217

This shot shows the weld seam better. It's a lap weld, like the one shown in the YouTube video I linked earlier. The only difference is that this one is D-shaped, and the one Jim forged is O-shaped. His was a prototype example, before he ironed out (hurr) the kinks.
>>19277
I think he meant to cut the spare rails on the side of the track to size and/or shape after hauling them back to his shop. Chill out, man.

>>19284
I say, my boy, I say that it's because you need your chikins.

Here's a shot from the bottom. You can see the furnace in the background, including the first blower that we were going to use before we decided it was too damn loud.

>>19332
Here is a MEGA DETAIL photo of the axe in the first profile. We scraped some of the rust off into the stack furnace as an homage to the smith that made that axe- we'd put it (in spirit, at the very least) back to work.

>>19332
Mega detail shot of the axe from its first profile.

Fun fact- as an homage to the smith that made that axe, we scraped some of the rust off into the stack furnace, to put part of it (in spirit) back to work. That's all I have, folks. I'll post more pictures from the next smelt when it happens, the tentative date is for the 29th this month.

Still around if you want to pick my brain.

>>19332
So how would you go about refining the blade and so forth?

>>19389
Files and stones, man.

>>19389
it varies based on who you are and what your personal style is and how impatient you are. personally i use an angle grinder for rough shaping and then hand-sand with progressively higher grits once it's flat. i like to switch stroke direction with every grit so i can make sure i'm completely eliminating the scrapes from the last grit - this is the only way to really get it completely polished

>>19398
From a traditional standpoint, yes, files and stones.

Grindstones for the bulk of it, which have an analogue in todays belt and disc grinders. To be fair, though, you want to forge your edge to as close to finished as possible- not so thin, however, that you get distortion and accidently burn the carbon out of the steel when you're heating it, though. About as thick as a dime for the heat treat, then you can finish it to sharpness on a belt grinder. Use new belts if you can- old ones will cause more friction which means more heat which means more chances of drawing the temper softer (and you just spent all that time getting it right, damnit!). It's good practice to drunk your workpiece in water often to cool it. Also, I shouldn't need to say this, but I will anyways- you're SHARPENING something. It will be SHARP. If you slip, you can injure yourself. Wear gloves.

>amputation. zensebr

Yes, amputations can happen, Captcha.

>>17441
>steal

>>19417
Tripoli is just abrasive enough that you can get a really nice polish. I suggest hitting your piece with it on a buffer wheel (carefully, both because it's sharp and because you risk drawing the temper from friction). There are even finer polishing compounds out there if you want a mirror finish.

Now, while I do like shiny things- sometimes it's the best thing!- I generally prefer a black manganese phosphate finish for utility cutting tools.

>>17578
>sued

>>19473
>knitpicker

So /diy/, what should I look for in hammers, files, stones, and other such things that are no anvils or forges?

Op, you are awesome.

>>19442
>>19473
>>19485
Before you post, ask yourself:

"Am I contributing anything to the thread? Or am I just making smartass remarks that add no useful information?"

If it's the latter: don't post. So what if his spelling isn't perfect? He's taught us a hell of a lot more about blacksmithing than your greentext has.

>>19511
I'm >>19485.
I'm also:
>>19027
>>19011
>>18991
>>18983
>>18955
>>18891
>>18827
>>18786
>>18772
>>18727
>>18699
>>18658
>>18640
>>18590
>>18573
>>18520
>>18496
>>18376
>>18309
>>18282
>>18242
>>18209
>>18153
>>18118

et cetera, soforth.

I'm making smartass remarks at him because he's being a douche, picking nits.

>>19485
>fucktard

>>19546
>dickhead who only wants to point out tiny flaws rather than do anything constructive and has nothing to show for it other than babby's first troll

>>19546
>>19566
You're both cock-eating faggots. Take it somewhere else.

>>19537
OH YEAH? WELL I'M EVERY PERSON POSTING IN THIS THREAD!!! HAHA YOU CAN'T PROVE ME WRONG SO THAT MEANS IT'S TRUE

no but seriously this is starting to devolve into shitflinging let's talk about something else

for example: train track anvils

i personally don't think they are all that great because the web is really narrow. and as the primary purpose of an anvil is to be HEAVY AS FUCK, this kind of defeats the purpose.

>>19604
Hey, I've actually posted some constructive stuff. I'm just bored shitless now that nobody is asking me questions, so babbyman here is amusing me.

>>19625
meet
>>19500

>>19617
You can check, you know. My claims aren't unsubstantiated. But then again, you might not know how to check for samefag.

Anyways, a rail track anvil is better than no anvil, and they're also easily modified to become dies for trip hammers. And they do work quite well. Yes, the web is thin, but for a trip hammer die they're already perfect for drawing, you can cut it off at the web and face weld it to a ram of mild steel, or cut a slot in your ram to let you use the web as a tongue-and-groove setup for interchangeable dies.

More questions, please.

>>19655
Good question: how can I check for it?

Can someone here please take all OP's post and put them in a large info picture for all future generations to see?

>>19634
Thank you, I missed that.
>>19500
I'd start with trolling your local flea markets for tools. For all your hammers, you're going to look for ones without chipped faces or scars. Chipped faces are bad, simply because the hammer is going to leave ugly scars on your work, the same for scars and cuts on the face. Do not, I repeat, do NOT use carpenter (claw) hammers. If you accidentally strike the surface of your anvil, it can rebound and hurt you. You'll want a ball pein, and if you can find one, a cross or straight pein. A cross/straight peen will look kinda like a wedge shape on the back of a hammer with a fairly wide radius. Again, make sure it's not cracked, chipped, or gouged.

You CAN use wrenches and such for tongs until you're further along, just make sure to clean their grip faces up so that they don't leave marks. Also, you're going to want to make tongs because wrenches suck for general work- for fine detail work or work where you need leverage they're great, less so for just holding something.

Now if you can FIND tongs, get them. If they're funny looking, don't worry, you'll be able to reshape them eventually.

Chistles and punches... those are things you're going to want to look to blacksmith suppliers, such as www.theblacksmithdepot.com, or Grainger Tools, or Northern Tool, or McMaster-Karr. You CAN find some at flea markets, but again, they need to be in good condition and they need to NOT be Chinese- I've had cheap Chinese punches and they're shit.

Continued.

Invest in a good set of gloves.

>>19655
Oh, yeah, I don't mean to say they're useless. I've used one before. In his book (i forget what it's called) Jim Hrisoulas swears by 'em. I hear you can use them vertically, too, where the head of the rail itself is just going straight down, and I think that would probably work pretty well as far as MASS goes. It's just that if you're setting out to make an anvil for yourself as a project, you might as well make it something better than a rail anvil.

Wow.

Man, I thought this board might be a good idea.

But this is insanely cool.

>>19700
Here, pic related.
>>19723
Gloves, yes, a good pair of gloves. Now, some smiths use them on both hands, some don't wear them at all, some wear them on only their non-dominant hand. You'll figure out what you're comfortable with.

Files... I'd look for a couple few good mill bastard files. If you're looking to do a lot of filing, invest in a belt grinder to do most of it (carefully) then to finish it by hand. Again, don't buy Chinese- you never know exactly what steel the Chinese are using, and I've even had a few files that were made out of mild steel. Don't buy Chinese.

For stones... you'll want to look to a synthetic whetstone. The Japanese waterstones ARE god-tier, but they're also hellaciously expensive (2 grand for a set).

Oh, and here's an important thing. I'm going to parrot Norm Abhram for a moment- "Always wear these, safety glasses". Get a good pair. Not just sunglasses, something rated for it. If you have a propane forge, you might even want to look into getting didymium glasses to cut down on the UV and IR going into your eyeballs.

>>19751
Indeed.
Shame about the weapons restriction.

>>19723
>>19775
Thanks, man

>>19775
thanks for the gif.

>>19784

knives are tools brohan

>>19735
If your choices are a big mild steel block and a section of rail anvil, take the rail anvil. Just bolt it down to a big, heavy hardwood stump and treat it like it's a big, heavy anvil. It will stand up to the abuse, and it will work VERY well.

>>19775

Continuing.

A good drill press. Again, not Chinese. Spend the money to get a good brand that will work, don't hit up Harbor Freight for anything other than cheap shit that you don't care about.

A good belt sander if you can't find a good belt grinder. There are plans floating about on the internet for a 72" belt grinder, you can probably find them on iForge Iron or Don Fogg's forum, and I'm fairly certain on ABANA.org.

What else... I'm trying to think of what else you might need...

Oh! A slack tub. Use a steel bucket, a steel trashcan, or a big oil drum- as long as it's steel, so you don't accidentally burn through it (it is possible if you're trying to cool off a hefty enough thermal mass).

You'll want your shop to be well ventilated, and well lit- but ONLY well lit if you need it. When you're otherwise working, you want your shop to be dark so that you can better see the temperature gradient of your hot iron.

>>19789
>>19785
You're both welcome.

Any further questions before I need to go to bed? (have to get up early tomorrow)

>>19812
But i want to make a STUN KNIFE or something like basic gunsmithing. But that's more complicated.

>>19784

it's not a knife it's a "UTILITY BLADE"

a perfectly legitimate non-weapon tool that is perfectly ok to post about

now excuse me while i smoke some "HERBAL INCENSE" with my "NOT A BONG"

>>19857
I know of a few people that still forge blackpowder rifle barrels. Would you consider the construction of individual parts to be /diy/? "Today, we're making a pattern-welded shotgun barrel!"

Thank you to everyone who contributed to the thread in particular the op.

I'm making a fist out of rail road spikes, they rust quite quickly. If I get them red hot and quench them in motor oil will that protect from rust? Also will it blue them?

>>17547
I got a foot of rail on e bay for 20$ with free shipping

>>19888
What that will do is one of two things.

One, you'll bake the rust and otherwise accomplish nothing, or two, you'll get an uneven hematite coating. You will not be bluing them.

To blue something, you need to clean the metal, first off- hit it with a wire brush until it's shiny. Don't get any grease or fingerprints on it, it'll show up. Wipe it down with acetone, then clean it off with water and dry it before bluing. Then you have a few options- you can fire blue it, where you slowly heat it to ~525-550 degrees Fahrenheit, or you can salt blue it. Both methods are out of your general reach- the first takes a lot of practice, and unless you have access to a gunsmith the second is unlikely. However, you can cold blue something with chemicals. I personally recommend Brownell's stuff over Birchwood Casey- it's the same shit, only cheaper.

>>19888
Uh.
1) what the hell is a 'fist' in the context of something capable of being made from railroad spikes

2) they're not rusting because they're railroad spikes, they're rusting because they're iron in contact with oxygen. do they have a very uneven surface? the more smoothly you polish them the less they will rust. keep them away from humidity and don't get them wet. i mean they're going to rust because that's what iron does, but at least you can slow the process

>>19927
I think he means knuckles, ala brass knuckles? I've no real idea, either.

>>19888
Here
It's 3 rail road spikes on a heavy leather glove with a metal frame

>>20089
You're going to have to post pictures of this, because there is no way I can imagine that not looking absolutely retarded

>>20107
Okay, now I think he means something like Wolverine claws. Retarded in my opinion, but they're his to do whatever the fuck with.

I advise him to not make it until he has practical experience welding. And when he realizes that punching with that is going to be awkward.

>>20135

i dunno, maybe it'll look cool, we can't say anything for certain until he posts pics

(ps: wolverine claws fucking lol)

Anybody have advice on making an axe? Which is easier, a solid tomahawk made out of a single piece of steel, or an axehead meant to be mounted on a stave? Also, how the hell do I fit an axehead onto an ash stave?

>>20307

Oh, and inb4 rule against weapons. Axes are tools for cutting wood. If I wanted to become a psychokiller I wouldn't use an un-concealable bladed weapon when I could go and buy a glock.

>>20172
>>20135
No not claws rounded tops are the striking surface they float infront of the gloves knuckles by 1/4" think of a katar with a glove except a piece of frame curves over the top of the hand with the spikes bolted on

I'm sure the weapons rule is for stuff like poison, explosives, guns and stun weapons, and ancient torture devices like an Iron Maiden.

>>20326
Tips? I linked a YouTube video earlier. That's a bit more than what you're probably looking for- simplest I can think of would be a slit-and-drift, monosteel axe. You'd take a bar of... 5160 or 4140 steel, start rough forging it to shape (squaring it and upsetting the portion that will become the cutting edge), slit the area that will become the eye, drift that with successively larger drifts until you finish with the size you want for your handle. Then you'd want to spread the cutting edge with your cross pein, forge it to shape, profile it, do a triple-descending normalization, harden it, temper it (bronze for the edge, peacock/spring blue for the body), grind and sharpen it.

>>20307
if you're looking for pure durability and manliness, you can weld a pipe onto your axe head and not have to worry about getting it to fit perfectly onto a wooden handle. but that is going to fucking vibrate the shit out of your arms holy jesus god almighty.

>>20343
That's less blacksmithing and more fabrication.

>>20307

I'm going to add on to my post of >>20371. I should have asked this, actually- what is the purpose of the axe? Splitting kindling, felling trees, what?

If you're looking for something quick and dirty, you can shape a lawnmower blade into something that is part-axe, part-machete. That, the more I think on it, would be the easiest thing you can do.

Also to mount an axe head, the eye of the axe is tapered, and the handle is larger at the head so that it wedges in place naturally (before you add wedges). Ideally you don't need to use wedges.

>>18805

you must be new here

>>20486
I'm not I'm using 4chan plus and the thumbnails are too small even when I hover over them to give a preview and when they're expanded they are larger than my 16" screen's resolution.

>>20533
4chan y. Fit image to page width, profit.

>>20573
I completely missed that. Thanks

Fuck apartments. I wish I had the room to do this.

>>20677
>>20677
>>20677


RIGHT?

>>20354
Wait, woah, what the fuck, explosives are banned? The sticky says "do not share instructions for how to make weapons, or any other device intended to hurt a person."

Doesn't that mean that making explosives is permitted as long as we don't weaponize them with the intent to use them against another person? I've been working on an ANFO tutorial and I'd hate to see it go to waste.

>>20961
you could probably get by with that.

>>20961
just make sure you state it is not for hurting others, it is only for stump removal.

I would do this if I weren't on my phone. Could someone please make an info pic of this thread? Please and thank you. In return have a smoke grenade

>no anvil and no forge.
>than comes up that you must have an anvil and a forge, just you must DIY
cheap tricks, murrikan bastard.
Anyway reposting some stuff I did in my previous thread:
>DIY coal forge plan (this is the basic, every coal forge is made up from this basic schem):
http://www.artistblacksmith.com/articles/coal_forge_plans.htm
>Gas forge (easier and cleaner, but doesn't top the 1000°C necessary to forge welding unless you DIY or buy the right burner, anyway you can forge and heat treath):
http://zoellerforge.com/miniforge.html
http://zoellerforge.com/simplegasforge.html
http://www.woodsmonkey.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=233:mini-forge&c
atid=41:how-to-articles&Itemid=63
http://www.arscives.com/bladesign/forge.tutorial.htm
>video to get an idea:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bt4OfHUi5V4
>Burners for gas forge (for advanced stuff)
http://ronreil.abana.org/design1.shtml
http://zoellerforge.com/flare.html

Building a gas forge is really simple. You only must get refractory materials (kaowool, firebricks, refractory cement etc.)

Accessories for anvil (hardy tools, you insert 'em in the square):
http://www.anviltools.com/
https://www.blacksmithsdepot.com/page.php?theLocation=/Resources/Product/Anvil_Tools_and_Swages
obviously you can DIY them

moar advancer RailRoad anvils:
http://www.anvilfire.com/21centbs/anvils/making/RR-rail_anvils.php

bump

As a blacksmith, have your forged yourself a stylin' hammer to use on your work?

>>22545
Second this. Have you made yourself a bitching hammer yet?

bump

>>22545
>>23750

Nope. I use, and have for years now, a £15 lump hammer and - provided I can get my hands on a bored friend - a 5kg sledge.

The reason I only give people who're willing to help a 5kg is if they mess up a hit it should be fixable and they generally don't have the endurance to go on for longer.

(My captcha is "industries nostalgia". Seemed fitting)

>>24479
Also, I'll chill here for an hour or so.
Throw any questions at me you fancy.

Any of you guys know how to make a oil waste burner. I saw lots of youtube videos on using used vegtable oil as a fuel and heating steel up to a good 2000. C or F I dont remember, but any of you guy have a ideas I can work with?

>>24488
can i use used engine oil instead of cooking oil?

>>24715
I can't see why not.
Basically it's to have the blade cool down quickly; the reason we use oil, not water, is because when we stick the steel in, the oil will conduct the heat better and make the heat change less dramatic, not to break the steel.

So long as, and as far as I know it is, the conductivity is similar you should have no problem.

Also, provided you keep it out of the rain you should never really need to change your oil over.

--

I made a 'Blacksmithing general' picture, since it seems this thread is popular enough to be a recurring one.
I'm no photographer or graphic designer so it may be a bit rough and tumble, but what do you think?

>>24715
>>24692
From some light scouring around..
Yes, an engine-oil burning forge should be possible.

Boils down to atomizing the oil in a blast of air that is going into your pre-heated whatever. Even found an image! seen ones like this used on forges that were being used to melt and cast metal. Should be able to make one with enough heat for blacksmithing easy.

>>24783
>easy.

ok, with a great degree of care and accounting for variables and accidents.

So not technically easy, but should be doable.

>>24783
Gee thanks bro, but I dont know if I should just heat it up in the open or I should just isolate it with firebricks/some refractory cement. What would you reccomend?

http://editthis.info/macdiyvers/Blacksmithing

There is currently no text in this page. You can search for this page title in other pages, search the related logs, or edit this page.

:-(

>>24880
Well you certainly dont work over some kind of oil-flame that looks like a burning oilfield.

The orange box and etc in my image would be refractory/insulation materials, that are preheated with something like a propane burner. Once that is already hot, the fine spray of oil and air just enters and Burns. Should be hot enough to keep itself going and not get too smokey.

>>24902
I pasted in the whole DOC.
No pictures and no editing.
If some one could tweak it to look like a page and not some random ramble tat would be well appreciated.

>>24972
Also I'm not sure where I can buy a nozzle for half inch copper tubing, nor do I even know the name of it. Only enough to atomize the "used vegtable oil". I use it because it's abundant in NY and you can get it from local restaurants.

>>24752
I think it could be better. Here's my try.

Is this archived yet?I don't wanna read through all this tonight

>>25172
Yeah - I like yours better, lets go with that.
Any idea what the bump limit is on /diy/?

I heard u liek blacksmiths

bumping the blacksmithing goodness.
I'd love to start this, though heaven knows I haven't the time right now. Maybe in a few months.

cool

>>23750
>>22545
Blacksmith hammers are just regular hammers, but "crowned" that means:
you get a hammer and grind-file sharp corners to rounded corners. Sharp corners dent your piece badly and it's way more difficult to flat the shit out.
Obviously hammers vary in size, weight and shapes.
pic: notice the rounded edges

Goood thread.

bumping a good thread

>>27706
>>27706
>grinding or filing hardened metal
Isn't this a bad idea? Isn't it going to weaken the hammer's head and encourage it to shatter?

>>28989
As long as you don't heat the metal up in the process, you'll be fine.

>>17981
>Weak
You're not good a spelling double e words, are you?

>>28989
learn2watercool

>See this thread early today
>Drool and f5 for hours
>Leave
>Come back
>mfw this thread is the epitome of /diy/ epic

Is there no one who will archive this?

>>29797
I just right-clicked and saved the .html.

>>29797
http://archive.installgentoo.net/cgi-board.pl/diy/thread/17318

there you go

Please do check out these ebooks I uploaded, given all the interest in the topic.

http://www.mediafire.com/?hveoryp1oxi1h

>>17333
Nails are dead soft, and a railroad track is still an anvil. Even better is a piece of track (used and work hardened) embedded in a 20 gallon bucket of cement.

>>17375
>mfw you said no forge required
You're building a forge. You can also just go to the hardware store and buy some firebricks and make a sturdier brick forge. Bricks are cheap.

>>17522
You're a fucking idiot. Mild steel doesn't harden. Mild steel is not suitable for a blacks mithing anvil. Maybe a copper smithing one.

>>17665
>You can buy steal off line or you can use just random steal you've found.
No you can't. Leaf springs work because springs are hardened so they're springy and not ductile.

>>17931
200F is way too low for a temper on spring steel, not to mention random mild steel won't harden in the first place. You've got major grain from overheating, and you've got no normalizing cycles either, meaning even more potential brittleness. You want at least 325 in a oven stabilized with bricks to keep heat steady. Ovens maintain temperature with off/on.

Goddamn. If you're going to make people waste their time making a knife, at least direct them to buying $20 of usable steel, and there should be lots left over for practice. Scrap worth of spring steel is the same as mild steel, and spring steel is only a little more than mild steel new.

-Former goddamn fucking bladesmith. I don't waste my fucking time blacksmithing anymore, because it does not make a better knife. Also superior stainless master steels. (In b4 carbon steel and forging bullcrap)

If you want molten metal flowing in your kitchen, but haven't enough know-how and cash to do it, just molt plumb. Cheap [you can get it even free!], molts at 327°C, and gives you the basic knowledge about "how bad is a molten metal burn".

>>29979
*molt = melt or molten. I hate irregular verbs.

>>29962
Also before some shithead decides to go steal a galvanized post from a street sign, leave it right fucking there. The fumes are quite toxic if you heat it up to forging temperatures.

You're seriously splitting hairs most of the way down here.

I think everyone knew what I meant when I said said no forge or anvil required.
To spell it out for you 'No 'proper' potentially expensive anvil and no fancy forge is really needed.

Mild steel does get harder - weather you can say it's 'hardened' is a different question. Which is why I said it's optional as you can make do without it.

The fact that leaf springs are hardened means balls - you normalise it long before it's hot enough to beat anyway at. I went through hardening as well, so yes, you can use and steel. AND yes - I am aware that some steals are better than others but I'm not opening a university here, I'm trying to encourage people to the hobby.

And in fairness - this one is my bad completely, I meant centigrade, not Fahrenheit - about 420 Fahrenheit, I believe.

>Stabilized with bricks to keep heat steady.
You are aware that if you leave an oven on it doesn't just get hotter and hotter for all eternity, yes? you seem to be unaware of the fact that they do in fact maintain a constant heat.

And finally, I know it doesn't make a better knife, my 'tools of the trade' so to speak are a bench grinder and a grinder with 12 tonnes of sandpaper. I do blacksmithing as a hobby and nothing more and was trying to show people cheap alternatives to getting into it.
...

Could of saved myself a bucket load of time actually; "Stainless steel."
Yep, was at that moment I realised I may as well of been talking to a chimp. Regardless of whether you enjoy blacksmithing or not holds no bearing here - stainless steal is a load of bull for an edge. Unless you're making EDU anything but carbon steel.

>>30325
That's me - sorry.
dropped the trip.

>>30325
A mild steel anvil is not going to stay flat, especially if you do any cold work. Railroad tracks work well because they are both hardened, and have addition work hardening from tons of crap rolling over it.

>The fact that leaf springs are hardened means balls - you normalise it long before it's hot enough to beat anyway at. I went through hardening as well, so yes, you can use and steel.

You have no normalization to reduce grain size, since you're likely overheating to make it easier to forge, meaning large grains and increased brittleness.

The fact that springs are hardened means lots, it means spring steel can be hardened to a practical and usable hardness, something your A-36 scrap rebar won't do. It will just essentially be a pointy piece of iron, the same as taking an piece of unforged rebar and gridning it down to a point. It will be pointy, but it won't hold much of a cutting edge. Worse than your dollar store knives.

Extra normalization steps are to reduce grain size, and increase toughness. I'm not talking about annealing, or getting it red hot for work. Not all steel can effectively be hardened either, including most scrap and construction grade steel. Just because you heat treat it doesn't mean it will get hard.

>You are aware that if you leave an oven on it doesn't just get hotter and hotter for all eternity, yes? you seem to be unaware of the fact that they do in fact maintain a constant heat.

They don't. Or at least, lots of older ovens don't. You should be using a thermometer anyways, since older ovens, like many people have, can be off by 20-30 degrees.

>Could of saved myself a bucket load of time actually; "Stainless steel." Yep, was at that moment I realised I may as well of been talking to a chimp...stainless steal is a load of bull for an edge. Unless you're making EDU anything but carbon steel.

Because you don't know jack shit about steel.

>mfw i make knives out of super clean swedish stainless razor blade steels

You're asking people to put 5-10 hours worth of effort into making a piece of crap because they started out with the wrong materials.

>>30566
A mild steel anvil can also be much easier to find/make and use as a temporary anvil until you get something better. Believe it or not, some people do have difficulty finding them. Better something than nothing. And if you have the space, you can try case hardening them but that's generally a bit beyond most people by themselves. The other option would be putting a face of tool steel on it with a TIG welder, though you'd need to be careful, and it would be an arduous process of many hours.

On stain-resistant steels... well, you can get a good edge from them. It's just more difficult to forge because they typically have a tendency to red short (I say typically, because it varies on their alloy), and other than an increased hardness and edge retention, there's no practical benefit (in my opinion, some people really like it).

>>30650
>On stain-resistant steels... well, you can get a good edge from them. It's just more difficult to forge because they typically have a tendency to red short (I say typically, because it varies on their alloy), and other than an increased hardness and edge retention, there's no practical benefit (in my opinion, some people really like it).

That is why I don't forge anymore. I can get better performance and stain resistance out of stainless steel, but it doesn't forge. Also the fact that forging doesn't really add anything except making unusual shapes. It isn't that forging is not fun, but it is prohibitive in making a superior knife unless you've got a large PID forge and some major power hammers.

>other than an increased hardness and edge retention, there's no practical benefit (and stainless)

That's like saying "besides being better there isn't any real benefit"

>>30680
Not really. Edge hardness and edge retention should be based on the purpose of the knife/tool in question. If you want something with a softer edge because you prefer having a knife you can easily sharpen in the field, then a stainless blade is probably not in your future. And if you want a knife that holds an edge forever, but you don't want/need the stain resistant properties (you're not diving or in a high-humidity environment), 52100 would be a good choice. The purpose of the tool determines its materials.

It's not like saying that "besides being better there isn't any real benefit".

You have a lot to learn.

>>30723
>then a stainless blade is probably not in your future. And if you want a knife that holds an edge forever, but you don't want/need the stain resistant properties (you're not diving or in a high-humidity environment), 52100 would be a good choice. The purpose of the tool determines its materials.

Bro, I can make stainless whatever usable hardness I want to. If you want it 60, I can make it 60. If you want it 58, I can make it 58. If you want it 52, I won't, but can make it 52. If you want it dead soft, I could but there isn't a point to that. It is called tempering.

And I can make my stainless perform just as well as most 52100, minus the edge quench bend 90 degrees and have an l-shaped knife tricks. Being stainless isn't a negative thing. It might be superfluous for cutting cardboard boxes, but even then it gives more resistance to chemical erosion of the edge.

And seriously, I don't know what is with this shit argument about sharpening in the field. If your edge lasts longer, you don't have to sharpen as much. If you carry a slipstone, then you can sharpen anyways regardless. If you're sharping on random rocks, then whatever. The abrasive compounds in rocks are generally a order of magnitude or two higher than even really hard steel. The small difference in relative hardness only means it will take longer to sharpen, not that it will be unsharpenable.

fuck guys, I cant find I-beams anywhere, any ideas where to look? Also how common is it for spare rail track to be along the side of the railroad like should I expect to find 1 every 5 miles or? I have everything I need but an anvil =(

>>30804
You go to train yard, with all the turntable things and bring a pack of beer. I beams aren't the same as railroad tracks. What makes railroad tracks great are that they are hard, they are even harder because trains rolled on top of them, and they are smooth and burnished for the same reason.

Otherwise you want to find a post of hardened steel, a very large sledge head works, but is small, and imbed it in a bucket of concrete. Hammer heads are hardened so nails don't mess them up too much, and that gives you the striking surface. The bucket of concrete gives you the mass.

>>17621
>>17690
>>17929
sent request, "something went wrong"
pic related but not exactly true, I'm going to bed, but I'll find this when I get up if it's still here (pic doubly related as I like to make things in Halo's Forge mode)

>>17441
"Get a tin of quality street or something and stab a few holes on the top."
get a what now?
yeah I said I'm going to bed... I'm actually going now >_>

Ok /diy/, where do I buy steel for forging?

>>31044
What are you forging?

>>31050
Well I want to forge knives, but I was just trying to ask a general question that anyone might want an answer to.

>>31075

buy it online, probably your best bet, also ive heard O1 is a really good starting metal for forging, I wouldnt start off forging with good metal that you buy online though, start with some shitty metal just so you can get a concept of forging, im going to start my forging with rail road spike knives and then move onto better quality steels

>>31044
easiest, cheapest way?
buy an amount of steel nails equal to the weight of your final product

if anyone knows
what can you use yo MELT metal, nails in this case, to end up with a chunk of steel to forge

okay guys I think I have solved my anvil problem, I found a thread on bladeforums where the guy put a 35lb dumbell in a bucket and filled it with cement and he filed one of the sides of the dumb bell, apparently it works pretty good

>>31085
>>31075
O1 is okay. It has lots of MN making it easier to harden and not fuck up, but it is pricy compared to spring steels, even though it may be better, and more finicky than 1084/1085. A beginner can make something useful out of O1 easily, but it won't be better than something made out of cheaper steel if you don't have good skills. 1085 is the easiest steel to work that will give you near full hardness potential, although it isn't common. 1075 and 1095 are much easier to find.

>>31102
No, hot rolled bar stock from a industrial steel supplier, which often times sever contractors and people who make fences sell hot rolled bar, which is second cheapest to finding a scrapyard that will let you rummage. Stop trolling.

>>31108
A crucible. Not easy.

>>31120
If you can buy a similar size sledge hammer, like 20 or so pounds, that works better because the face is hardened.

>>19485
Actually it's "nitpicker."

But in all seriousness, great thread.

So I'm looking at steel online, and...

Hot rolled steel or cold rolled?

why build a forge when you can build cheap induction heating coils?

>>32636

More information, please.

>>32648

google "induction heating" lol

>>32636
> cheap induction heating
>cheap
0/10

>>32662
cba to read through all that info. can you just answer a few questions of mine?

>>32648 i am not

>>31432
>thatsthejoke.jpg

This thread was so awesome I had a dream about it, but then I splashed boiling dreamwater in to my dream eye and woke up. Thanks, assholes.

>>32687
so your telling me you weren't wearing dream goggles while doing black smithing?

>>32687

wat? u mad? u trippin?

>>32687
Not out fault your weren't wearing dream safety glasses and following proper dream safety, ya dumbass.

>>32636
>>32648
>>32662
>>32672
Induction coils are cheap and superior. It is the power supply that is killer.

>>32739
>The hardware is cheaper, but the fuel isn't. So really it's more expensive if you count the whole thing and not just the hardware.
FTFY.

>>32672

troll

>>32748
The fuel is cheaper. Heat cycles are much faster and you don't have to keep it on.

With a coal forge you have to keep the fuel burning the entire time, and the stuff has to soak in the heat for quite a bit relative to coils. Not to mention is is cleaner, and you don't have to spend time sourcing fuel. Of course you need an actual industrial power line.

is 4kW enough for melting?

>>32779
Are you melting a penny?

>>32785

actually 3 pennys, is it enough power?

>glowing metal bump.

So, we have a look at what you could call the big three heat sources.

Coal(and charcoal)
Gas(and/or oil)
Electric Induction

Pros and Cons abound. Any metal-smasher with experience using several able to offer an opinion?

>>34360

I've been reading up on this stuff for about a week now, trying to absorb as much as I can before I begin construction of anything. I want to get the most bang for my buck. So far what seems to be the best idea for this would be an oil injection spray? This is what I've been reading. http://www.backyardmetalcasting.com/oilburners08.html

I just looked on craigslist in my area and there are posted within the last week 1,100 gallons of both vegetable oil and used motor oil for free pickup. 55 gallon steel barrels, free containers, some say bring your own container.

All that free fuel, I think a few lumps of coal plus FREE waste oil is the way to go.

Damascus steel, how does it work OP?

>>34421
Not OP, but it depends on who you ask.

The "original" is thought to contain carbon nanotubes. The stuff that gets passed off these days is made from steel cable-like the stuff they use to stabilize phone poles.

>>34645
Stop it with the nanotube shit. Seriously. Damascus steel isn't even any stronger than normal steel. The patterns were due to alloy banding or carbide banding, meaning you have bits of hard carbide, and bits of soft steel, except unlike normal steel where they are evenly distributed, it is not.

The reason why Damascus steel was superior was because back then the Europeans were using steel that was 0.2-0.4% carbon, meaning it did not get very hard. Its why you see little dings in swords in museums, and why they can beat katanas and shit in stupid toughness tests.

The Damascus blades had C values of 0.8 to over 1%. Talk to nearly any knife or sword maker today, and they would not consider using steel below 0.6%C.

Pattern welded steel can be done in various ways, not just cable. Making a good billet is difficult, but the process is essentially just smashing together lots of pieces of different steels while red hot and forge welding them together.

>>34360
Carbon Arc?

If I pick up blacksmithing I'm not going to get ugly ripped as a woman, am I? This sounds awesome as hell, but I don't want gross musculature.

>>34678
The two female 'smiths I know are kinda toned and wirey, like runners with arms. You could bounce a coin off of any part of their body. Nice.

>>34685
Awesome. I'm starting on this on the weekend, definitely. /diy/ is the best.

>>34678
There are lots of fat ass smiths as well if you want to go that route. Blacksmithing is not that active, and can be pretty sedentary, specially if you use a power hammer.

I'm taking a welding course and at the end of the day we wind up with a lot of metal powder. A lot of it is rust, but there's a lot of steel in there.

If I were to colect this powder would I be able to do anything with it?

>>34869
No, you need to take it back to a recycling plant which they probably would already do. There are a few applications you can forge with a canister of powdered metal, but these are extremely clean powders. Melting and refinement of steel is extremely difficult, and you might as well start off with ore sands. Even then for the effort, you won't get clean steel, just steel you made yourself, at a cost much higher than buying steel (see tamahagane). The other steels can be ordered as powder, but this is used as a gap filler in making some Damascus billets. It does not get melted and purified, so anything dirty in the powder will end up as an inclusion.

>>34889

What if you only collected what was able to be picked up by a magnet?

>>34923
Nope. Unless you don't mind tons of inclusions.

The powder you buy is very fine, I'm pretty sure it is spherical instead of shavings, and very clean.

>>34889
>which they probably would already do
naw, ends up in the trash which is why it might have been worth it, but guess not. Oh well.

I finally get back to this thread and it's freaking-late-o'-clock

>>34931
Take bags and bags of it to a scrapyard (the recycling kind, not auto parts). They might not pay you a whole lot by the pound, but it is free money. If I do recall correctly, they will accept steel powders in sufficient quantities. It gets melted down with the car parts and other scrap metal.

>>17665
>steal
>steal
>steal
>steal
>steal
>steal


I think he's trying to tell us something...

Why wasn't this stickied?

Depending on what my paycheck looks like next Friday I'll be trying this out.Can't wait!

So I'm about to pound out a piece of rebar. Do I need to quench it in oil/water right after or can I just let it cool on its own?

if we add an oxygen tank to your typical backyard forge, can that be enough to do glass instead of metal?

of course the problem then is that the copper pipe with air flow is going to melt when you add straight up compressed oxygen?

every worked with glass in your forge OP?

There's some old railway over by the bike path where i live. I'm not sure how to go about cutting it down to the size i need. any tips or suggestions on this?

>>17441
"Get a tin of quality street or something..."

Could someone clarify? Was this a typo? If not, what is this supposed to mean?

>>34663

>The Damascus blades had C values of 0.8 to over 1%. Talk to nearly any knife or sword maker today, and they would not consider using steel below 0.6%C.

Could someone explain how the hardness ratings work?

>>35842
More carbon = harder steel. According to the Complete Bladesmith, at least .4% is needed to harden a blade, and .5 % to get a good edge, with steel around .8-1.0% having really good edge retention.
>>34663
>http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v444/n7117/abs/444286a.html
>Here we use high-resolution transmission electron microscopy to examine a sample of Damascus sabre steel from the seventeenth century and find that it contains carbon nanotubes as well as cementite nanowires.

>>35842

%C isn't a hardness rating per se - it's a percentage of carbon present in the steel. Pure iron is relatively malleable as compared to carbon steels.

You can have too much of a good thing of course, and excessive carbon in steel can lead to a very brittle mix.

Lots of other things determine a steel's hardness apart from its component materials, however, such as grain size and shape.

Not to copy other posts, but to emphasize...

http://www.anvilfire.com/

Visit this site. Love this site. This site is your friend. I copied one of their plans for my RR rail anvil. "How to's" for tools, weapons, gear, & advice.

>>35803
Quality Streets are big metal tins of sweets, or candy, if you're american

>>36155
Holy shit, you're not bullshitting. That's an actual thing. God damn, this is why we have conventions like capitalizing proper nouns you fuck.

bamp

>>35725
Don't go ripping out railway that you think is unused (even if it is), as it could still be theft. Also, it is kinda a jerk thing to do in my opinion.

DO scout along the rails for already-removed rails, even spikes.

And ok, if the track is truly abandoned and decaying, cut off from other lines, it might not be terrible to take a bit of steel. You would need some serious cutting gear, like a plasma cutter (and generator that can run it, some way to carry all that, so forth) to actually cut rail. Look for short sections, but a "short section" might mean that it is only 5 feet long, still trouble to move.

You might find a hardened old sledgehammer head as a better "starter" anvil to screw around with some nails and things, then buy a real anvil.

>>36155
Haha, thanks for clearing that up. I thought the "quality" part was, well, him saying to get some good quality (whatever street was supposed to mean). I didn't know it was the name.

Thanks again.

bump

i love this thread with a passion! and i walk down the tracks today looking for a rail. found four, each 'bout 15 fucking feet long. how do i cut them?

>>36941
I think the easiest way is using a plasma cutter

>>36941

There are numerous grades of rail. Most I've seen work harden on the running surface, but the lower flange will not workharden. I'd suggest cutting from the bottom up with a saw until the lower flange and web are cut and possibly a bit into the top flange. To snap the rail, lay it over another one (still upside down) and whack the end with a BFH or if you have a loader, etc. place a sort length underneath the cut at right angles and drop the rail 18"-2' onto the lower rail. It should snap off.

A torch will work OK too. Torches are not affected by workhardening. Depending on how heavy the rail is, you may need a larger tip. 100#/yd rail has a top flange thickness of +/- 1 1/2" so your tip will need to be able to cut that thickness. Cutting rail with a torch is easy if you are willing to keep the torch at right angles to the surface following the relatively complex contour.


I found this at http://http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net/showthread.php?t=41157&page=2

Enjoy