/diy/ - Do It Yourself

>>1671278
op, I think the guys over there in the Hammer thread aren't going to like this idea

>>1671278
Screws back out over time too, depending on where they are. My porch deck has some screws come up after 15 years. I have to drill them out because the heads are rusty to unscrew properly and the driver bit just cams out. It is a major pain to replace them. They were installed before this area had stainless steel deck screws for sale.

Also, nails are used in places where you need more sheer strength instead of friction strength or holding power. Bolts are for friction strength and sheer strength. Screws tend to be brittle when compared to bolts or nails. I use nails for stud framing, screws for decking, and bolts for major framing (beams/ledger to posts/wall).

>>1671278
Just in case.
Because when Jesus comes back, it would not be polite to just screw him back on the cross.

>>1671278
screws are expensive and people like to make money

also nails have more shear strength

>>1671278
ITT: Nobody understands the mechanism by which nails work and hold.

Companies have only been recently making screws that are strong enough. A regular sinker nail is good to something like 300 lbs in new softwood, screws are half that. Drywall screws are uselessly weak for any load bearing stuff.

Screws are required for old wood though sometimes if splitting is a problem.

Nails are fine, screws are fine. It just depends on the situation, each have advantages.

>are the weaker fasteners
No dumbass. Nails are way tougher than the average cheap yellow construction screw, those screws will snap like a dry twig.
Same goes for the drywall screw meme - they are even weaker than those shitty yellow screws.

But companies do make structural screws.

>>1671532
>Companies have only been recently making screws that are strong enough.
No, Good quality and very strong wood screws have been readily available for over a century now, the cabinet screw being the most common example. All that has changed is that good cordless drivers have become common and since you no longer have to drag a chord about the jobsite, screw are becoming more common in general construction so home centers and builders supply is starting to carry a wider variety of steel screws.

>>1671388
>also nails have more shear strength
No, they don't. Where did this meme come from?

>>1671587
Most people have never seen anything but drywall screws and the cheap plated screws that are all over their cheap furniture and lack the intelligence to be able to look beyond their own personal experience.

>>1671542
I like using the longer drywall style screws in my construction because removal is much easier for my often temporary projects

How tf are you supposed to do roofing? Screw the goddamn shingles in place? That just seems asinine. Nail gun all day

Need a nail gun for big shit, couldn't imagine screwing a house together, lol.

>>1671587
nails are soft and tend to bend while screws indeed break off
Nails usually are bigger gauge, a "big" looking screw consist of 2/3 diameter threads that do nothing for shear strength

>>1671607
maybe that's why the fall apart so quickly.

based jewish contractor retard

>>1671607
Windows before the sheathing???

>>1671278
Cheaper to make
Stronger (different steel that doesn't break)
Also faster if you have a gun.
> The come out over time and are the weaker fasteners
Different nails exist. Some have ribs for her pleasure and to prevent it from coming out that easily.
As for strength, they don't have threads, thus cross section is greater. Also, they are made from different steel, which is a little bit more flexible, so it won't crack in case of earthquakes.

That said, there are screws that are as strong (or even stronger), but screwing them would be slower, than using a nail gun.

If use screws to put on a roof I'm going to kick your ass! :)

>>1671626
screws also have innate stress risers due to their geometry, though this is somewhat mitigated if the screw is formed with rollers/dies instead of machining.

>>1671633
>wack off about old houses being the best
>old houses are made with nails

no electricity, try screwing manually.

>>1671312

>>1671607
A single nail at a time?
Nope.

How many houses fall apart because the fasteners fail as opposed to the wood rotting or burning?

>>1672156
One or two pushes to drive the screw, lock it and half a turn or so to snug it down tight. Takes a few seconds for most screws.

>>1672175
How is this tool called?

>>1672177
push drill

>>1672100
Old houses are made with stone here

>>1672178
Thanks.
I was always intrigued by this since I saw mike's push screwdriver in breaking bad.

>>1672177
Spiral Ratchet Screwdriver.

>>1671307
>>1671388
>>1671542
>>1671626
>>1671696

>muh shear strength

When will this dumbass boomer meme die? Screws are superior to nails in every aspect except ease of application and cost. You retards snap the head off of a screw and conclude "hurr durr, durr hurr sCreWS aRe brITTle"

>>1672196
let me guess, you're one of those zoomers hammering them in 90° straight

Aint nails safer for construction? In essence if a hluse decides to collapse, nails would give way earlier, limiting risk factor to humans? Like a deck you might build over your portion of a lake; you use nails so in cases of storms, waves wash away the top platforms but leave the structural portions

Not to mention nails are faster, cheaper, more durable

>>1672236
Nails can be safer in that they allow some flex to the structure, the generally can bend some but more importantly they can pull out a little when wind or the like racks the structure and then they go back in when the force is removed and the structure returns to shape. In such a case with screws they will hold rigid to a point than rip out of the wood, at this point they are just a floating pin keeping things aligned.

Either can be just as strong and more than adequate, the structure was designed for a type of fastener, switching that type because you think the other is better is where you find problems. The modern stick frame with its ply sheathing is quite rigid, suspect a good quality screw would work just as well, but the more old fashioned stick and balloon frames with solid wood sheathing can move in high winds, the whole house can creak, screws would probably not be so good here.

>>1671278
because they still havent figured out a way to make sizeable screws be the same shear strength ratings.

>>1672196
they ARE brittle you dumb instagramming faggot twink

>>1672196
Drive a 3" nail halfway into a stud and try breaking it with a hammer, than do the same thing with a 3" screw. Even a pussy like you could break the screw in a couple smacks

>>1672208
>hammering nails
We use nail guns now gramps

>>1672264
>>1672289
Stay mad dumbass boomers

Based

>>1672320
>specifically avoiding the yellow screws and drywall screws
Cherry picking twink

>>1672320
>project farm video
I see you are a man of culture as well

>>1672325
>he doesnt recognize black screws as drywall screws

l also worked as a carpenter that used hand banged nails cause pneumatiic nailers and compressers were really expensive in the early 80's.
Cabinetmaker now, about 28 years and we use screws, 18g nails to keep the panel in place.

>>1672325
Nigger are you color blind? Put your glasses on boomer

>>1672156
screw you!

If you dont use self-tapping screws/tek screws/lag screws, you have low testosterone and you regularly watch nonwhite men have unprotected intercourse with your wife.
>good for wood
>good for metal
>good for anything
>come in any length/diameter

>>1672350
Based

>>1672347
>>1672333
those are just different types of deck screws plebs

>>1671278
ever remove old deck screws? they are brittle as fuck. nails don't break anywhere near as easily

>>1671599
This

screws are for retards who are afraid of hammers

>>1672289
I use nails because I'm not running and tripping on gay ass cords everywhere and constantly have to buy new bits

>>1671278
Also if you ban nails you can also ban hammers and make our streets safe. Nobody needs a hammer in 2019/20, possession should be illegal

>>1671532
>Companies have only been recently making screws that are strong enough.
I dunno where you've been getting your screws from, but the normal manufacturing process for screws hasn't changed since the Victorian period. That's because it's both extremely cheap while making extremely strong screws.

>>1672196
Obvious bait but for shits and giggles, anyone who thinks like this post should go bend a nail and see how crooked it can get and how many times it can be bent before snapping.
Then try this with a screw and then you will see why nails a better for certain applications than screws.

>See nails back out
>Assume your problem is with nails not retards and beaners.

Pedro will always attempt to compensate his lack of skill for speed and low pay. When code mandates 6" spacing for a given size nail driven the proper way pedro cant speak english cant read and just shoots nails everywhere like speedy gonzalez The boomer who hired him doesnt give a fuck either. In his mind the whole country can collapse. He is also a dumb fuck and just wants to get payed watching pedro go fast.

Smooth shank and ring shank have their place. If your think you might have an issue with nails backing out 1. you're not working to code. 2. You`ve never seen a spiral shank nail.

>>1671278
much quicker with nailgun

OP never built a form

>>1672381
Have you considered penetrating agent if it doesn't come out easily, you fucking retard?

>>1671278
>Flathead & Philips-head, = shit
>square head = slightly less shit
Torx, hex, and lags are great. Trim screws are too.

Nails are the right tool for a lot of jobs though. You're not going to screw baseboard, or shingles, or entire house framing. The framing probably wouldn't even pass if you did.

>>1671587
well i havent looked into it but intuition would tell me this is true because a nail had a wider diameter/mass, and is formed in a single rod.

A screw is thinner when the threads are not included as diameter.

Screws do seem to be more brittle, i can often snap a screw by hitting with a hammer where as a nail will just bend.

Again i have no dog in this fight and these are just my boomer observations.

>>1672600
>t. boomer

Are you gonna stop now? Or are you going to keep reiterating the same pedantic shit? Get it through your pea brain boomer, the only reason to use nails is if you are a cheap jew.

>>1672381
Ever heard of oxidation?

>>1672558
Use cordless tools and stop buying chinese bits you fucking retard

>>1672704
>all the screw cope in this thread

>hurr screws are better
>buy special screws
>buy special tools
>buy wd40

How about you just use one hammer a fucking nail?

>>1672709
Are you fucking retarded? All of the "screw cope" are nothing but responses to the retarded nail shills just looking to find an excuse for using nails when they are clearly inferior no matter which way you put them. The only thing they have going for them is cheapness and speed, both of which are things only a retard or jew crave.

>>1672712
>stronger
>cheaper
>faster
>less overhead

Yeah, screws are better. Tell us the truth, you smashed your thumb, didn't you? You are fucking afraid of hammers and that has pushed you to a state of delusion.

>>1671307
>15 years ago this are had no stainless steel deck screws
Hope you're enjoying life in the 3rd world, it will suck when they figure out you're only there to get your cock in little boys' anuses.

>>1672721
>hammering nails
>current year

This is how I know you're retarded even for nail shill standards

>>1671289
underrated

>>1672175
This looks like it would jump a lot

>>1672767
Nope, as long as you push straight into the screw and the bit properly fits the screw all is well. They have been in continuous production for almost 150 years for a good reason, they work.

obviously the failure point of modern structures is the fasteners, not the shoddy engineered materials

You're all a bunch of faggots. Use woodglue, the wood will fail before the glue does.

There's a fuck load of choices for both nails and screws for a reason - stop grabbing the cheapest shit off the shelf and then arguing about which cheapass fastener is better at doing shit they aren't designed for.
Also use torx drive for fucks sakes. Stop stripping literally everything because your grandpa used philips. You can get much better screws when they're manufactured to take more torque without stripping out. Yes they cost more - yes you're a cheapskate.

>>1672773
I doubt that

>>1672803
Enjoy your ignorance, I am certain it serves you well.

It looks like no one here has ever done production carpentry or knows how a nail works.
16d sinkers can hold like a mother fucker, especially with a couple of good toe nails.
By the time you've screwed a few studs in a wall, a man nailing would already have his framed.

>>1672813
I genuinely hope you have a good day, friend...

>>1672635
>when the forrman/project manager brings 1" lag screws with a 5/16" hex bolt head
>not those sissy little 1/4" long philips head self tappers
>when a panel dead front has square bit head screws so you dont have to use a slotted/flat blade screwdriver goddamn I fucking hate straight blade screws so goddamn much if I was a dictator of any first world nation I would literally outlaw all sales and production and use of straight blade screws as my first ruling act fuck those things I got no time for em

>>1671633
kek

>>1672169
LOL I worked at a truss plant for a while... Those plates are nearly impossible to press without a massive machine, and nails are always what's holding them up.

>>1672723

Stainless steel heads don't help a lot since they are part of a stainless steel screws which are rather brittle. Never snapped regular screws off, but several stainless ones already. Especially when removing them, so that's where they really are a bitch and a half. No extra hardened Hazet torx bit will help you if the screw head snaps off a screw gunked into place by years of material rotting or setting. With nails you can simply use a Crowbar. With screws you're screwed.

>>1672712
best thread right now

>>1673166
>stainless steel screws which are rather brittle
stainless work hardens

>>1672325
>>1672333
>>1672368
>all black screws are drywall screws
Fucking weekend warriors. Drywall screws don't have a shank like that, the head is more bugle shaped, and they have larger relative threads. Those are indeed 3 different types of deck screw. No wonder you faggots hate screws you can't even tell apart the different types.

>>1673187
You might as well be a nail shill if you don't even know your screws faggot

>>1671607
>needing nails to build a wooden house
Either timber frame or build a brick house...

>>1672799
We're trying to go beyond the strength of the wood you dumbass inbred

>>1672712
Screws only win at clamping the materials together and disassembly.

Nails win everything else
>speed of install
>shear strength
>cost
>smaller footprint

>>1673212
>Nails win everything else
>only lists 4 things, three of them jewish tricks

>>1671685
>windows before the sheathing
>my god man, no the correct way to do it is thus
Oh look at this guy, a fucking contractor snob.

>>1673261
Oh you're right, screws with at
-stripping the heads
-heads breaking off during install
-stripping the material out with the threads
-cross threading
-needing a collection of 1000s of different bits, security bits, and propriety jew bits to use
-generally self tapping like complete dogshit
-needing specific pilot holes to install
-needing specific specialty driver tools
-fucking everything up by mixing metric and imperial

the list can just keep running

>>1672817
>good toe nails.

Meme joinery.

>>1672698
>only reason you'd use screws is if you're a cheap jew


or you care about aesthetics in the slightest. screws are ugly as hell

>>1672177
Yankee screwdriver.

>>1671278
Fuck you. I like hitting shit with hammers.

>>1672196
You're just asking for an ass full of semen

>>1671278
My house's frame is held together by nails. Been that way for over a hundred years.
I wouldn't like to pay the extra if they'd used screws.
You buy nails by weight; you pay for each screw.

>>1672175
Have you ever tried one of these. No thanks.

>>1671591
Even the good screws get stripped and you then have a whole problem to deal with.

>>1674421
>You buy nails by weight; you pay for each screw.
You can buy screws by weight, just bought 2 pounds of 1 1/4" #12 solid brass wood screws. There are also all of those boxes of screws next to the boxes of nails, those are by weight, just like the boxes of nails.

>>1674507
Use mine at least once a week.

>>1674541
bait

>>1674421
>not buying all your pre blessed fixings by weight from our lord and saviour's Leroy Merlin.

Do you even fix bro?

>>1673173
No, it loses its temper from working. It is one of the maddening things about working with stainless steel. It will actually anneal itself when you work it too much.The main problem for stainless steel screws is that their heads tend to twist off as they get hotter when you screw them into something. Which is why you absolutely must drill a pilot hole first. There's nothing worse than having a screw head twist off as you screw it in and the rest is sticking 1/8-1/16" out of the project. I even apply bar soap to the screw along with drilling a pilot hole. I haven't had a single screw twist off since I started doing both. And, that's with 3" long stainless steel deck screws going into local hardwoods like oak, hard maple, shagbark hickory, fruit wood, etc.

>>1672350
For screwing thin automotive plastic I prefer non-self tapping. As you screw the plastic is pushed out of the way and gives a better grip as it is fully tightened.

>>1672635
Friendly reminder that robertson and square head are different. Robertsons have a very small taper. Squares have flat sides. If you have problems with screws or screwdrivers/ bits stripping. That may be your problem.
Robertson screws > square heads

I have read all and declare nails the clear winner.

>>1671626
>>1672666
>>1672264
>>1672289
>>1672600
>>1672263
>>1673212
That's not shear strength. Shear strength is pic related. Harder steel is more brittle, but it has greater shear strength. Which is why, if high shear strength is a major design consideration, you use hardened bolts rather than nails or screws.

[spoiler]>>1674614
>It is one of the maddening things about working with stainless steel. It will actually anneal itself when you work it too much.

Uh...there is no metal in existence that "anneals" from being worked, and few that exhibit limited or no work hardening. Stainless steel is notorious for being one of the worst offenders for work hardening. Ask any machinist. Or anyone who's tried to drill stainless by hand.

Work hardening is the result of breaking down larger crystals in the metal's structure. Atoms have some limited slip within a metal crystal, but are unable to slip across grain boundaries. Thus, metal structures made up of smaller crystals, whether those are formed via a heat treatment process or cold working, have less elasticity and are generally harder than those made of large crystals.

>I haven't had a single screw twist off since I started doing both.

Wow, the screws don't break when you do things that reduce the force required to drive them into the wood? That's crazy, man.

>>1671278
You sir, are retarded

>>1672026
metal roof dumb fuck

>>1675446
asphalt roof dum fuck

Why not just use bolt and nut for everything?
If needed, add washers.
Use locknuts for vibration problems.
Maybe it's slower but it would standardize things and make repairs of anything far more easy. Just need to unbolt something and bolt in the new part. Holes can be a nice standard same. Can even use the same bolts and nuts!

>muh roofs

Maybe we shouldn't have roofing methods in modern times that are basically barely evolved from times where we used to use rocks on or roofs to weigh down the material that kept the rain out.

>>1672847
Fuckin trash/10 screws, I hate these too but enountered them a ton through old brit motorcycles and tube era electronics.

Im surprised nobody has mentioned nail guns.

>>1672175
>few seconds
>compared to a second or less for an experienced framer

>>1675589
>Why not just use bolt and nut for everything?
That would require everything to be redesigned for through holes with access on both sides. And since nuts/bolts aren't flush with a surface without counterboring, things would also have to be redesigned for that. Consider how you would hang drywall with nuts and bolts. Also, materials would cost a lot more, and labor would cost enormously more.

>>1675605
Missed the point completely.

>>1675609
I don't think drywall is more than just a fad and also a bullshit cheap building material.
I come from a family who's livelihood is drywall and to be honest I think it's absolute shit.
made to make things cheap and fast and not for any sort of longevity and it encourages mold growing.

>>1675593
They haven't?

>>1671278
faster and cheaper

IMAGINE PAYING FOR FASTENERS BOTTOM TEXT!

>>1676088
Those dowels cost more in time to make than nails or screws, but thanks for playing.

>>1676088
Even with the cost of fasteners, the labor savings of stick built will cover it easy. Timber frame is great but you either need lots of people, a crane, or start erecting temporary structures to hoist with. That is on top of have a few very highly skilled people, stick is pure grunt work, any dropout can learn the skills in an hour.

>>1676112
No they don't, you just split them out with a hatchet and drive them, they do not need to be round, just good enough, the less than perfect shape is actually an advantage, bites into the wood. If you actually need round pegs you just split out the blank and hammer it through a hole drilled through some steel. It might take the apprentice a few hours to get out the few dozen pegs needed for you average timberframe structure, someone handy with the hatchet can do it in under an hour. Most timber framers that I have know just get out the pegs as needed and never bother with round, takes them about 10 seconds a peg.

>>1676112
>>1676114
It was a joke you guys are really humorless

>>1676167
Fasteners are serious business, yo. And by serious business, I mean both a frequent topic of discussion here that people like to argue about, and a hundred-billion-dollar industry that deeply affects tens of trillions of dollars worth of infrastructure, structures, vehicles, etc. that underlie our very way of life.

>>1671278
You must be 18 or older and not a faggot to post here.

>>1676121
Dowls aren't faster than nails, even with a punch tool. You still have to drill.

>>1677030
No one said they were faster, but since you mention it, they are, you might have only a dozen pegs for every 500 nails in a stick built. Pegs are not used much in timber frames normally, just in joints that actually could pull out. Take the pic in >>1676088, almost all of that joinery is for show, the only pegs that actually do anything are the two on the mortise and tenon between the beam and post. That dovetailed post and beam should be a rising dovetail so can not pull apart in the way the pegs would prevent, pegs do nothing there. Those two trusses likely serve no purpose and even if they do those pegs are positioned for aesthetics appeal and not strength. That is meme joinery through and through, just people trying to be 'rustic', not proper timber frame.

>>1677098
>they are

They aren't. That's why they are not used. The only reason they were used over nails to begin with was once upon a time nails were rare and expensive to the point they'd be salvaged when houses burned down. Now they are only done for aesthetics to make things look old, like in your picture.

They were used over nails because the small diameter of a nail can not take the forces generated in a timber frame, which are all concentrated on a handful of joints, unlike stick which spreads them across a great number of joints. Timber frame went from wooden pegs to steel bolts of about the same size for a reason, you need that large diameter to distribute those forces across more of the wood. Nails were used all over in timber framing and have been for centuries, those big openings between the timbers have to be framed in, this was often done with nails, which were not that rare, just more expensive than cutting a joint or some pegs. People salvaged the nails after fires for the same reason people salvage things today, it is free. They did not have front end loaders and dump trucks to deal with the waste after a fire, they had to break up and remove remains with man power, no big deal to pocket the nails as you came by them, or take the wood turned to charcoal for cooking over or plenty of other useful things left over after a fire. Nails were useful things, but even in the days of cut nails they were not all that expensive, but they cost money and were not the cheap wire nail to come.

Given two equal sized homes being built, one timber frame and one stick, the timber framers will make their pegs, drill and drive before half those nails are driven in the stick build. There is just not much pegging done in timber frame, most of the joints are just cut so gravity and friction do the work, except in memes like above pic. Timber frames are quick, but the frames do not form the walls, like in stick, so the time savings is a wash and you need to pay skilled people instead dropouts, burnouts, and convicts.

Nails are used because we build our houses differently, no other reason and pegs are still used where they have the advantages offered by larger diameter.

>>1677133
>I don't know what I'm talking about

Timber framing is done in such a way that fasteners are only used to hold things in place rather than add strength.

>>1677153
I never said they add strength, but they do, they enable the building to withstand racking and tension on the joints, which in an ideal world would never happen, but ground shifts, winds blow and those fasteners take great strains and apply greats strains on the joint, they need to be of sufficient diameter to spread those forces.

1. Fuck jannies
2. Fuck boomers
3. FUCK NAILS

Simple answer Screws snap, nails bend. How the fuck are you supposed to do roofing without nails you autistic fuck

>>1677797
engineer a screw that bends on purpose nigger.

>>1677857
that’s a pretty expensive screw to make, or it’s cast, and is therefore shit.

>>1672178
Push drills are slightly different; they rotate on the push and release. Using a push drill bit in spiral ratchet only works half the bit.

>>1677797
If you're putting that many fasteners in crooked, it's time to blame to operator, not the tool.