/diy/ - Do It Yourself

>>1634959
commercial electrician here... you can be a sparky without being good at math, but you probably will never be licensed or even be considered a good sparky. Maybe resi guys dont need math as much but they also get paid less.. with as much pipe bending as there is in commercial and industrial and doing voltage drop calcs and just doing layout in the dirt and going through the rest of the prints you need math... its what separates us from the apes.

we do pretty standard 40 hour weeks but bump to 50's a few times a year, sometimes more sometimes less. I'm almost 40 now and have seen guys doing this well into their 60's... its construction though and there are times it will be tough.

Try to get in with a company that doesn't do residential. If you're strictly on the install side there is no on call. If I could do it over again I'd get into fire suppression as a sprinkler fitter. Pipefitting isn't bad but sprinkler fitters make more to hang schedule 10 wherever they want and you get to deal with it.

Stay the fuck out of automotive.
It's not the same as the good old days. 23 yo mechanic been doing it for 7 years now. My brother went to be ab electrician. He is 2 years in and already making 6$ an hour more and in a union. As a mechanic, you get no union and if you want to move up in a shop most likely you get fucked with flat rate. I take pride in being detail oriented, caring for my customer cars and enjoy learning too. Out of all my classes and kids my age I've been told I'm ahead of the game; yet still get fucked when trying to make money for my skills.

Electrician here too. I started off in residential, then commercial and finally industrial. That the best way to do it in our trade. There so many opportunities out now it’s not funny. The money is great and all with a GED but I’m going to collage because my employer is gonna pay for it and it will let me advance to a supervisor/engineer role. The dumb trade like drywall, painter, and shit get paid shit and work long hour for nothing but the smart trades like electrician, plumber and millwrights make bank but still long hours. Yes you may wreck your body but how else are you gonna get paid?

>>1634959
From what I understand, this is the order of best to worst in the trades. This ranking comes from money, work environment, and the toll it takes on your body. High paid positions are higher than low ones, jobs that let you advance, don't kill you at 40, or have better security are also ranked better.
>GOAT Tier
HVAC installers
>High Tier
Electricians, machinists, masons
>Okay Tier
Welders, plumbers, non-machinist manufacturing
>Kinda sucks Tier
Automotive
>Fuck this I'm changing careers Tier
Framing, iron working, drywall

I'm sure I'm missing some trades that people will yell at me, but from what I've gathered by working/talking to others this list isn't far off.

>>1634959
Wages are depressed across the board in the US for skilled and unskilled workers, but trade wages are the most depressed

>>1635013
Start your own shop.

>>1635155
Have considered it but I am not yet to the knowledge level of full diagnoses to be able to compete. Also one other reason the automotive industry is screwed is the manufacturers restricting the information it requiring "reprograms" that can only be done at a dealership. Screws the small shop owner big time as technology keeps changing. (3 of my 7 years was at an independent shop where I basically did an apprenticeship).

Now that the unskilled have nearly been conquered, trades are prime candidate for jobs to be taken over by robots. That said, anything that requires body mobility and dexterity would be better since robotics dexterity is expected to remain below human level for some time still, making it a good gap to exploit. So I'd say stuff like mechanics, plumber, joinery, that sort of things.

>>1635215
>trades are prime candidate for jobs to be taken over by robots.

jesus christ no. Not any time soon. What trade do you think a robot can do, even the most sophisticated Boston Dynamics million dollar version?

>>1635013
nice thing about mechanics that some other trades may not have usually is having a shop. all your tools etc are right there. maybe a fridge to keep your lunch cold, or good cheap food a 5 min drive away.

im an electricians apprentice/ex mechanic. glad i switched but working in the field has its drawbacks. having to know what you need to finish a job before it begins because leaving for supplies or a tool that you don't have with you in the van is time and money.

nice thing about electricians though is with a van full of tools you can run a business. mechanics will need tools but also a shop with a lift and all the bills associated with that.

>>but at least you can work indoors most of the time, often with heat in the winter.

>>1634959
Get a degree. Boss around the trades. Level up.

>>1634959
>What do you think of the trades?
I applied and got accepted into the sparky union.
>Are there any trades that work with the 5 day work week
Where I am right now, work is good, which means work 5 days and week. Sometimes more.
>or they all just on call?
Only on call when there's a significant recession.
>Also how good do you have to be at math to be an electrician?
Not really. Need some basic understanding of trig for bends.
>What are the trades to avoid?
Laborer's Union. It's not even a trade, but unskilled labor. Mostly concrete pouring. Another trade which seems quite challenging would be ironworkers, or rodbusters. Lots of grueling, hard, repetitive work. Easily the angriest workers.
>What ones won't leave you a shallow wreck at age 50?
I regularly see peers who are 50+. Then there's the welding trades which include pipefitters, boilmakers, sheet metal workers, HVAC/Operating Engineers. Carpenters union don't earn that much, but masonry-plasters do. Some trades require regular travel, the one I do is mostly local to the county.

>>1635013
Loads of auto-mechanics in the electricians union.

>>1635055
How do you find an employer that pays for you to go to college? I'm currently a 2nd year spark apprentice working for a contractor that does strictly commercial/construction

>>1634959
I'm a cabinetmaker, I work 4 days a week, and I'm in a good spot right now. The money is good, I'm the shop foreman and projeject manager, and although I've been doing this for over 28 years now, and yes, I'm over 50, my body isn't broken because I learned to work smarter, not harder.

>>1634959
I always tell this to people thinking of getting into a trade: plan for a way out. work towards getting your license/certification/whatever but figure out how you can use that to go further.

I been doing commercial HVAC for a bunch of years and now made my way into property management. HVAC is a substantial operating cost to most commercial buildings so having in depth knowledge of the subject made me a shoe-in for managing buildings

>>1635343
Isn't that mostly mexican work? When I see this old house and they visit a maker they are always mexican.

>>1635071
I know it’s different every where and I’m gonna catch some flak but HVAC guys that I’ve worked with in 15 years experience have all been meth head hillbillies. Other then maybe 1-2% decent guys. Slower then shit and lazy to boot. Masons need to be kinda suck tier.

>>1635076
Source? I’ve see wages go up all over especially for electrical and plumbing. I make more then my friends with degrees.

>>1635336
Just got lucky really there out there. Always look for something better.

>>1635071
masons is clearly near the worst

>>1635336
Get a job working for a company as an electrician, not working for a contractor. Then after x years, quit and become a contractor.

>>1635071
No
Avoid masonry
You'll end up with scars and injuries and arthritis no other trade even comes close to. The money's good if youre union and topped out but by the time you get there you could have picked an easier career have more of you body left and still make the same if not more. Fuck block
Fuck flatwork
Footings are ok
Fuck 4 story chimneys with a 8x4ft slab cap of bluestone
And fuck junky laborers

>>1635330
I was a rodbuster for 4 years in Colorado at a decent sized yard. We regularly did 8bar for days and days. Literal 4 delivery's a day at 12 bunks of #8 at 30'. It's not too bad but if you can't fucking count or do angle math don't bother.

>>1635071
you need to re-work this

>GOAT
non-existent everything can suck and none of it will make you very rich
>high tier
electricians, HVAC, Plumbers, all have to be licensed, re-new those licenses, decent pay and considered skilled
>medium
iron workers, framers, skilled workers but very hard takes these guys down a notch in the wage vs effort level category
>shit/low
masons, drywallers, anything you have to work extra hard at, low pay, and low skill

>go to hvac scool
>get helper job
>become apprentice
>become journeyman
>ask boss for a raise
>he tells me, years later, after encouraging me to g through all this shit, theres no money in turning wrenches and have to get my own business if i dont want to be poor

thanks paul.

I make $21 as a coax tech in NJ. I basically do installs and service calls for a major cable company. Most work I do is running cable drops from telephone poles to houses and tying them in. Frequently work in attics/crawlspaces.

Would joining the local electricians union be a good career move? I own home and have a mortgage.

>>1635551
bluestone? are we neighbors? NEPA?

>>1635461
>Source?
Common sense and basic logic.
Wages are depressed across the board for skilled and unskilled workers due to illegals, legal immigrants, and visa workers. Trades are further depressed because on top of being skilled labor, they have a higher rate of injury, some are almost guaranteed to give you some type permanent injury such as welding giving permanent eye damage even if you wear PPE at all times, manual labor, shitty work environment, some have mandatory long hours, etc.
>I make more than my friend with degrees.
You still don't make as much as you would if all illegals and visa workers were deported and all future immigration indefinitely halted. The cost of housing would fall too, even tank in some places like Silicon Valley and NYC

>>1635660
>Would joining the local electricians union be a good career move? I own home and have a mortgage.
For the retirement plans? Sure. For the health (+ possibly dental)? Questionable, in my local our insurance plans suck but to me it's better than nothing. Also you might want to look into what's the maximum wage for coax techs in your area, if theres any union shops that hire them, and what you need to pay in monthly dues.

>>1635672
Yeah I see your point there and your right but I still believe it’s getting better, or maybe I’m just luck I went from 20/hr to 32/ hr with bonuses in little over a year. I can be a 36/hr in a year with 6 figure positions ahead of me. I’ve also been doing it for almost 15years and started with learning from my father as soon as age 8. I live being electrician and I’m glad I can make a decent life with it.

>>1635761
Nah, it's getting worse.

The economy was so bad since end of bush through Obama that a chunk of the illegals went home. Now they're back because the economy recovered.

>>1635660
You should know the power company pays like twice that. Do you actually climb or are you a ladder tech?

why the actual fuck are there non-tradies answering these questions? is it a seasonal phenomenon?

>>1635813
Thereslike one engineer and one guy larping as a college educated something something that make almost 7 figures a year and all of us tradies that bring up we are making 6 are just killing ourselves working too hard.

One thing i learned, is don't be a metalworker. It's long hours and you work if it's rain or shine. There's alot of traveling between jobsites, and most of the tools are old and dangerous, it's not for the faint of heart, and i wouldn't suggest it unless you have a good back.

>>1635814
Is one of them also the "terk er jerbs" guy?

>>1634959
Is this next to to blaze pizza? I been there

>>1635055
By investing in real estate, business, and american oil...

>>1635193
Find the hotrod guys man. Start swapping parts and working on older easier shit.

Maybe get into building cheap and easy ricers to sell to high school kids?

1.9 trillion s10 withba small block still loved by all.

U probably already know but good infor for everyone here. Beat the firewall in with a sledgehammer or a 3 inch body lift in the front and you can toss a big block chevy in

>>1635220
I love box was 6 years ago mane. Thats just what they let the public see. That fucking robot is more agile than my fat ass and could probably stock shelves.

Just a matter of time man

>>1635291
The hell bro. Get an inverter for a mini fridge and microwave

>>1635347
Tryna tell my pipeliner bros that. Live on 50k invest 50k.

But no. I need 39 slide outs, a sorry about my dick pickup, a new harley, and 2 side by sides.

Just....

F

>>1635942

in your lifetime, no robot will ever:

put shingles on a house.

install plumbing

install wiring

paint a house, other than maybe crude shit during construction

frame or do trim carpentry

install tile

I could go on, but if you've ever done any of these things, you know a robot won't do it any time soon. robots are great in factories and warehouses where everything is in the expected place and is accessible. It's gonna be a long time before robots climb around on roofs, under sinks, in crawl spaces, etc.

>>1635641
Fuck you paul.

>>1635672
Shitposted here before. Will double down on the PPE. Used to say the only thing a fall harness would save is your job. Then without one i fell like 8 feet and shattered my heel and ankle. Was laid up over a year with cripling medical debt for another 10. Can't walk very well or stand for long. I was in my mid 20s.

Be smart about it and whatever your career path study unvesting and think about what will happen when you are working your current career path at 70. Van u still do it? Because i can hardly run equipment and if my investments dont pay off my only hope for retirement a grabber at work

>>1635813
Why yes newfriend. It is called summertime...

>>1635814
I'm gratefull for the 50k

Jump into some equipment lads. You wont regret it

fuck off schizo spammer

>>1635948
Well i hope so. Ive done all but electric. Ive been affraid of mains since the dozen times i got hit as a kid. Lol.

I'll be retired or sadly on disability before the robot apocalypse anyway

>>1635948
Unless all done in a prefab in a factory. Hell some of those might already exist.

>>1636380
>prefab electrical
No. You dont know how electrical work...works.

>>1635805

My company forces us to use ladders. I tried getting in with the power company but they want to send me for two years of college, which is fine in and of itself, but I have a mortgage and I can't stop working full time. I need to jump into something and start working.

>>1636394
That's surprising. I thought everyone encouraged climbing for productivity.

The new cinch lock systems are pretty fool proof. It's less dangerous than a ladder. Not that you have any control over it.

Advancements most relevant to your current skill then would be coax splicing/fiber optic splicing and doing business/circuit orders. The splicing might be rolled into be part of line work, putting hardware on poles, removing poles, etc. That's very relevant to power company work and you work with them pretty often to address moving hardware from one pole to another

I'm not 100% how open they are to experience like that. For all I know they might still insist on lineman school.

2 years is surprising too. O thought it was more like 4 weeks of pole climbing and basic hardware, and then you've got a couple years of being the bitch on the crew because you're the newbie

>>1635071
Why do people keep saying hvac is goat tier?

>>1636461

If you are the actual contractor the markup is where you make obscene profits, at least around here (NC). I've heard of guys installing an $8000 unit in a day or so and making $4000 on markup alone.

>>1635948
I think robots that will be able to put shingle on a house will be possible. We wont have bending units like on Futurama completing tasks like that, but I see advances in 3D printing and see a large robot being able to put on shingles a possibility in the future.

>>1635071
How come other trades never acknowledge us network cable guys :(

>>1635055
I’m going to collage because my employer is gonna pay for it.

Those... Collages are expensive. I weep for your employer.

>>1636393
Not the guy you are replying to but prefab absolutely exists in electrical. It's typically just jbox, proper mudring, mounting bracket, ground screw and mc whip to proper length and an assembly designator.. it doesn't take anything away from the trade except shorten rough in time, and cheaper labor costs... Typically a jman and 3 apprentices in the shop doing repeatitive shit all day.

>>1636520
What's the hardest part about being a data guy?


Telling your dad you are gay

>>1635347
just curious where property management pays better than hvac service. in seattle commercial hvac service guys make $50 an hour. most building engineers or property managers i work with make at most $35.

>>1635672
>You still don't make as much as you would if all illegals and visa workers were deported and all future immigration indefinitely halted. The cost of housing would fall too, even tank in some places like Silicon Valley and NYC
Right, but the price of consumer goods would spike because, with higher wages across the board, production costs go up. There are no coins with only one side.

>>1636595
Nope. Many low cost goods are already made in the US such as toiletries, plates, cups, etc, or can be made in the US such as clothing, https://www.allamericanclothing.com/made-in-usa/303CYM.html people pay more for made in China or India or Aghanistan or Pakistan Nike shorts. A 20% increase in the cost of labor does not equal a 20% increase in the cost of goods, especially for mass produced goods.
And the cost of housing, which is the single highest expense for most Americans, tanking, which would fall by an estimated 30 to 40% if mortgages required 20% down instead of single digit on top of falling from deportation and no more immigrants, would offset any rise in the cost of some goods.
The cost of some luxuries might rise, but the cost of housing tanking and wages rising would make it much easier to cover the basics and save money.
The only time what the typical response you said happens is with a government enforced minimum wage hike.
Keep guzzling that corporate cum though and believing that wages have to stay low.

>>1635215
imagine a robot fixing your toilet

>>1637052
He... it doesnt smell.

Wtf.

>>1635670
Margate New Jersey
All rich ass Jews. But we get the bluestone from you guys. One of the only sources of it in the country and almost world in a decent amount. Good stuff. Spalling it sucks thougg

>>1636525
>mc whip
Not all installations can use MC cable. Sometimes you need EMT or IMC. Neither of which comes "pre-fab" with wire inside the conduit. Not to mention when you're doing non-residential electrical, not every device can have power ran to it ez-pz in one straight shot through with minimal bends. That's why sparkies bend offsets and saddles. Also the devices being wired up dont come pre-wired with a pre-cut length of MC attached to it.
Perfect example is new A/C units. Sure they might come with a disconnect but you still have to run pipe from the panel to the disco and seal tite from there to the unit.

>>1637554
90% of the world's supply is within 20 miles of here. Or something like that. I'm tailing off a complete rebuild of my own home (carpenter by trade) and we put polished bluestone countertops in. They're pretty but porous. Gotta seal them up. I'd never use it outside. It's reedy after weathering so even the best job won't last. The historic sidewalks are all awful now.

>>1637554
Should say the countertops are on order, not in yet. When theyre done I'll post some pics if you're interested.

>>1637590
been doing electrical for almost 15 years now...

sure prefab doesnt work for every situation, but to say it doesnt exist is just narrow minded. We have so many mundane routine tasks that can be prefabbed so you can have your green guys doing that and your more experienced guys doing stuff that cant be fabbed.

>Not all installations can use MC cable. Sometimes you need EMT or IMC. Neither of which comes "pre-fab" with wire inside the conduit
still you can prefab your panels and have them pre punched, and basically fab the entire electrical rooms in cad and then give those measurements to your prefab shop. Get your transformer all wired with proper lengths so you literally just set it and then stab wire to the pre punched holes in the panel next to it and wire it in 1 shot. Fab up all you unistrut racks. Fab all your data drops so your literally just dropping pipe into a connector and zip a few screws in and go, plus that gets the green guys who start off in prefab a chance to fuck up a ton of 90's that dont actually matter.

>Also the devices being wired up dont come pre-wired with a pre-cut length of MC attached to it.
well yes and no.. get some pic related, plug tails and you can have that waiting in the box ready to go and a device that plugs into that once drywall is up, which cuts down on the finger prints left on the walls.

>>1637644
>prefab shop
The shop I work for is a multi-million dollar company and they pretty much never use one of these services. Making the apprentice do things like actually measure and cut and fabricate the unistrut racks goes toward (hopefully) turning out future journeymen who are actually worth a fuck.

>>1637652
>>1637652
our prefab shop is in house and we bring our apprentices up through the prefab shop so they learn the basics, parts, and the system we developed. Then into the field and build them up and grow them into journeymen. I wont have to teach them how to use basic hand tools because that already happened in prefab so I have more time to run my job and keep up with the RFI's, ASI's and other bullshit. We also send them to service so they get a chance to do a little residential work and trouble shooting. Basically it helps to give them a complete apprenticeship.

not to be the 1upper guy but we do jobs north of $5m that require 30-40 guys on them... seriously its basically nothing to be a $25m/year company these days. Shit my current project is like 1.2m, needs to be done in 6 months, and we are barely out of the ground yet. With this kind of schedule I need prefab just to stay under 10 guys.

>>1637662
>not to be the 1upper guy but we do jobs north of $5m that require 30-40 guys on them... seriously its basically nothing to be a $25m/year company these days. Shit my current project is like 1.2m, needs to be done in 6 months, and we are barely out of the ground yet. With this kind of schedule I need prefab just to stay under 10 guys.
Our shop usually brings in jobs like that. We still don't "prefab" anything in-shop unless it's things like forms for pouring transformer pads or lengths of 1/2" flex conduit with 12/2 for lighting. Everything else gets done in field, and we've been in business for 35 years, with a respected reputation in our district.

>>1635076

Wrong. Most college degrees will get you a very low paying job. Keep telling people that though so I have less competition in pipefitting and welding,

>>1635942

Lmao, no. you’re talking out of your ass, it took decades just make one robot that can flip burgers under perfect conditions.

>>1635554
>Literal 4 delivery's a day at 12 bunks of #8 at 30'

Jesus. Fuck that.

I don’t recommend being a rodbuster or Ironworker, unless you’re a fucking masochist. Fuck trying to do it for 35 years. Meat grinder trade.

I just got out of it 3 weeks ago. Never been fucking happier.

>>1637664
Maybe you guys should start... It's pretty much the future of the industry.
Look at how HVAC, and sprinkler gets fabbed then installed and the use of bim drawings.

>>1637666
Those very low paying jobs and all other jobs, yours included, would pay more if all illegals and visa workers were deported and all future immigration indefinitely halted.
I wasn't making a college vs no college argument, the fact is just about everyone that works a regular job would be paid more if all illegals and visa workers were deported and all future immigration indefinitely halted. You think you make good money now? Well you would make more if all illegals and visa workers were deported and all future immigration indefinitely halted.

>>1637687
Next, you are gonna argue that jobs would pay more if women kept to the kitchen and we stopped letting those negros go to school. You can be right and wrong at the same time.

>>1635948
>put shingles on a house.
Easy. Bet it's a thing within the decade for high end new construction or large scale simple jobs. Feed the robot a roll of prepared shingles and it drives along laying and firing nails in. Could probably be done with current tech but roofers are alcoholic bottomfeeders who work for scraps so it's not worth replacing them yet.

>install plumbing
Retrofitting is always going to be harder, but for new developments in housing complexes where every building is the same and there's hundreds of them someone is going to work out a way to automate that, whether it's that 3d printed concrete walls meme or robots assembling prefab parts.

>install wiring
Probably easier than plumbing a surprising amount of the time. Again with the massive complexes all running off the same pattern, the amount of time and money you could save just uploading the schematic to a robot that runs all the wires in the floor in an hour before the walls are put up, for one example, makes it basically guaranteed that someone is going to start doing it.

etc etc, same for the other shit.

Yeah you'll never be able to make a robot that can do everything, at least not in the near future, but every new bit they automate cuts a chunk of the demand, and then the 10 electricians that were doing that job originally get reduced to 1 who just checks the robot's work and the other 9 have to go compete for the remaining jobs the robot can't do.

>>1637032
As someone who went from manual labor to a retail job, the attitude your pic represents has done me wonders. I just have to compete with lazy people who don't take their job seriously

>>1635945
This just scream ‘Alberta’

>>1637721
Why do you redditors always conflate immigration with racism and misogyny?

>>1634959
I work as a structural engineer at age 25 and I often find myself wondering why I didn't get into the trades.

I like my work I'm just bored with it and hate working in an office.

>>1637916

you can easily learn any trade at 25. as a matter of fact, you'll be taken more seriously than the average 18 year old.

>>1637918
True.

Idk I wish I could somehow do both. The potential for money goes both ways, and with this I have a degree (for some reason or another)

>>1637721
Married men with stay at home wives make more than both working.

Negroes can go to any school they want but they shouldn't be given preferential treatment.

Women shouldn't be forbidden from working but feminists shouldnt lie to them and tell them working for the man 60 hours a week is more fulfilling than having a family.

>>1637918
Not worth it in bong, go get a degree and work in a coffee shop

>>1637916
Shit or get off the pot, my man. No one is stopping you but you.

>>1635672
This is exactly the type of thing that a complete fucking idiot with no secondary schooling (probably doesn't have a non-GED high school diploma) would say. Complete horseshit that doesn't reflect any reality aside from the reality and "common sense and basic logic" of an imbecile.

>>1634981
im an electrician and welders are called sparky , they make sparks as part of their job


electricians are copper pullers , snake wrangers

>>1637721
>jobs would pay more if
The labor market is subject to supply and demand, same as everything else. People want to buy things whether they have a job or not, since they need food, housing, clothing, transportation, etc. regardless. So the demand for goods and services is relatively flat, meaning that the demand for labor to supply them is relatively flat. In a situation like that, doubling the work force would cause average wages to fall. Consider that, in the 1950s, a single worker could support a stay-at-home wife while buying land, a house, and a car or two. Modern workers are far more productive than the workers of the 1950s, so why is such an arrangement harder now? Low-wage immigrant workers is one reason, but it's not the only one.

>>1638782
Never heard of a welder being called a sparky. We always called you guys grinds, being that’s all you guys do.

>>1634959
>>1635574
This, and I'd add that appliance work at least around here is medium or maybe shit. The freon license required for most appliances is open book and online, but you still have to get that far and the guys that don't watch their back with insurance or are careless don't last long either.

That weeds a lot of guys out before you even get into the "real" licensing for HVAC contracting, which leaves an interesting space for the guy that dots his i's and crosses his t's, but is still small time i.e. fully licensed, insured, bonded and capable but only a few guys running 40-50hr weeks and low expense. You can charge a lot less than the bigger guys with 50+ employees and fully stocked and painted trucks. I drive by a truck lot for one with over 50 trucks in it regularly. Their radio commercial in which they paint themselves as this struggling local business is annoying, but following their bids that are 3x what I'd ever need to charge is what keeps me going.

I may be a bit biased, but I would put HVAC as a solid high-tier along with electricians and plumbers. They all probably require about the same schooling to get to where you want to be, and require re-licensing. HVAC has hazardous material concerns, electric has danger concerns, and plumbing is so fucking dirty and rough they get paid more than either of the other two.

>>1636461
>apprentice under the right guy for 2-4 yrs
>get certs
>people constantly call like meth heads at a dealers window at 3am on a Tuesday
>when you get there everyone's so hot they're delirious
>when you leave they're so happy they give you lots of money and if readily available their first born
>often very little parts and actual materials go into repair/install
>rest goes into pocket after a little admin fees off the top
>if you don't feel like doing your own thing or business gets slow/hard you can find a big company and easily be making $100k+ full benefits, vacay etc as foreman bossing around a bunch of barely legals
Ikr I don't get it either.

>>1639084
Then why isn't everyone else doing it?

>>1638782
Maybe it's a regional thing but in the Midwestern United States everyone from project management down to the guys that sweep the floors after a job call electricians "sparky." I spent 6 years as an electrician and I'm in my 12th year doing HVAC and I've always heard sparky=electrician

>>1639128
Pipefitting is dirty hard work and a lot of apprentices quit within 6 months. Sheet metal is a bitch and almost nobody wants pure tinners anymore because it's mostly prefab so you end up doing pipefitting anyways unless you're the guy doing the prefab(fuck that). Service there's just not enough people willing to work the on call hours and even fewer people that are smart enough for it. Pretty much the same as service in any trade.

The pay is also meh unless you work for a big shop that works on the big shit.

>>1634981

What's your pretax annual income?

>>1635071

This is exactly right. I know a guy that went HVAC and he's now age 50 and a multi millionaire

>>1636509

This. 2 Mexicans just installed an HVAC system in my home.

I sat down and did the math on their parts, truck, expenses.

Each guy made $1000 that day.

>>1639155
How many do they do a month? That is the real question. If they do 5 a week, you have to ask yourself why are they still doing it? Why haven't they taken the profits, invested them, and just kick back? If they are doing 5 a month, well, there's your answer.

One of my friends worked HVAC for several years. Its feast and famine just like a lot of the construction trades. Out here, during summer, it is 7 days a week, 12 hours a day. During spring and fall, there is next to nothing unless someone is putting up a tract. If the winter is mild there is next to nothing. Our 'hard winters' are 'maybe I should put on a jacket' weather so some people don't even have heaters or make do with a plug-in unit. When the economy took a shit some years back people would pick up a window unit or two at Walmart instead of having some HVAC guy check out their system.

>>1639160

I hear what you're saying, but if that's a seasonal issue the HVAC guy could just find something else to do during the winter months.

>>1639164
Some do. Or some save up the money from the busy times and just take piecemeal jobs while living off of that. Or, as has been my experience, they fucking spend it on hookers and blow, their painkiller addition, or the ol' traditional standbys; alcoholism and gambling.

My friend put himself through college doing HVAC work. He would work like a rented mule during the summer and blow the money on tuition, rent, etc. the rest of the year. Every now and again he would do weekend work for beer money during the school year. Once he graduated and got a stable job, which took a few years, he put that shit down and never looked back.

He has always said since that the trades are not a career, they are a means to an end. If you think you will last long enough to retire turning a wrench or swinging a hammer you have another think coming. Either you better yourself like he did or you move up the ladder into being a foreman or a company owner or something.

>>1639176
You could have posted nothing instead of posting nonsense. People work a trade their entire career and retire from the field all the time. If you take care of yourself it's not a problem. Working at a desk isn't for everyone.

>>1639246
"Retirement" is subjective. How many people that are still swinging hammers and turning wrenches do you know that go all the way to 65 and then retire? If you are a framer or a drywaller or something like that then basically no one will hire you around here once you turn 50. You are considered too old, too slow, and an injury liability. That is if you even make it to 50. Every guy I know that has stayed in the trades is physically shot. Bad knees, backs, shoulders, you name it. Either you move up the chain, get pushed out, or end up 'retired' on workers comp. You ain't getting a gold watch and a pension working in the trades. Can you imagine being 60 or even 70 and installing roofs or digging ditches week after week? Nah.

Meanwhile, me and my peeps all went to college and got nice easy jobs in the tech sector. I probably don't make as much as someone working a trade because I'm not some high-end systems admin but my expenses are basically nothing. I don't need a truck, I don't need tools, my clothing is all business casual and basically lasts forever. My commute is 10-15 minutes every day and I sit in a nice air-conditioned office posting on 4chan during my downtime. It also runs itself. Once you get shit up and stable it is resetting passwords and recovering deleted files all day. Super chill.

>>1639259
I'm in HVAC, I get paid from when I start my service van in the morning until I get back home with it in the evening. I have worked with guys that my company hired in their 60s and worked into their 70s because they retired once and got bored. One was an old sheet metal guy and one was a very old school boiler guy.

You clearly have no idea what you're talking about claiming that you don't get a pension working in the trades. Literally every union job comes with a pension and any decent non union shop has a % matched 401K. Trades are generally set up that as you get older you're job becomes less physically demanding. Roofers absolutely work into their 60s, after the shingles are on the roof it's not a bad job. Digging ditches isn't a trade and any trade that requires it has apprentices doing it.

I could have gone to college, I had the grades, test scores, and money set aside but I hate being indoors at a desk. I make damn good money at a job that is getting harder and harder to find people for.

>>1639353
>Digging ditches isn't a trade and any trade that requires it has apprentices doing it.

This for the most part, I still pick up a shovel here and there 15 years into the electrical trade but it's for an hour or 2 and 2 and we use machines when ever possible. I also like to show the younger guys I can still do it.

>>1639353
>Literally every union job comes with a pension
Congrats on not living in a right to work state. Out here it is not required. Out here getting union protection in a decent job is fucking hard as hell. Even then, half the fucking unions suck. Their memberships are so anemic they can barely do anything. I've seen entire crews laid off without warning and the union shugs their shoulders even though the contract they negotiated with the business requires notice and a paid cooldown period. So, let me hit you with some knowledge.

>You clearly have no idea what you're talking about
>Literally every union job comes with a pension
No son, that is YOU that has no idea what you're talking about. What percentage of the EMPLOYED US population have union protections? 10%. Yeah, ten percent. That is the average and does not count non-working people. In some lucky places, like New York, it is above 20%. In the strong right to work states in the South it is in the low single digits. Having a "union shop" where union membership is required as a condition of employment is illegal in right to work states. In right to work states most of the people in unions are government employees, teachers, and healthcare types. Not tradies. Even then, many union jobs do not come with pensions. You might get one or you might get an IRA or a 401k or you might get nothing. I put myself through college working at a hospital as an orderly. Union membership was mandatory and I didn't even receive sick or vacation days let alone a pension. Your experience it not typical of the US as a whole.

Sources:
https://www.bls.gov/news.release/union2.t05.htm

I'm going to be taking a lineman apprentice exam, what should I study up on for it?

>>1635071
Mason work is brutal and carpentry is the most fun

>>1639512
Math if you havent been doing it in awhile... they just want to make sure you arent braindead for an entrance exam.. they will weed you out from there and train you up otherwise.

>>1639535
>Math

Fuck that. It's been years since I was in Calculus class and no way I'm going to study that shit again. Thanks, I'll forget about the lineman shit.

>>1639507
Holy shit dude I didn't even bother reading all that. I live in a right to work state and unions absolutely do have pensions and any self respecting employer is union competitive with matching pay and benefits. A lot of union shops have "self funded" vacation and holidays and the pension doesn't kick in day one you need to work in the union long enough to be in it.

>>1635350
Only Mexican can make cabinets, this is true

>>1635948
This is true and why mass immigration will be encouraged to keep you're wages low and the Shekels in my pocket high

>>1636595
You are wrong.
>There are no coins with only one side
Wrong.

Globalization/mass low skill immigration allows for the commodification of human beings (labor), this maximizes GDP but concentrates wealth. This is a bad thing for everyone except the psychopaths at the very top (finance). This is the main driver of the growing wealth inequality. Prior generations could raise a family, own their home, etc. on the single income of a mechanic/electrician/painter/etc.

>>1638751
You have unironically been brainwashed. On second thought you may be trolling.

>>1639551
doubt you need that high of math skills to be in the field... probably for the engineering side of things but thats not what a lineman does.

>>1637721

kys faggot

>>1639556
Oh, you didn't bother to read my sourced claims that refuted your own? Okay, you win. Clearly, I have no chance of standing up to your whithering debate skills.

>>1639653
I said trades unions have pensions and non union positions have 401Ks. You fired back with a source showing union membership percentage. It's not really worth addressing.

>>1638782
Your mom is a snake wrangler, retard.

>>1639535
Heh, I got an A+ in calculus so I'll be fine, my algebra is strong as fuck.

Though I might want to take a quick look at the quadratic formula just in case.

>>1639128
The guy I apprenticed under is a rarity, I'll admit. Boss was a 30 year vet, small outfit, low stress, no gps or fancy paint on trucks etc still managed to make 40+ a week most of the year. Pay was total shit compared to other outfits, but stress was practically nonexistent and I learned a lot that I've found the big outfits I've brushed with didn't know. It was hard work, but I never had to get anyone coffee or be someones shitheel, and I learned how to deal with everyone I'd need to in order to do my own thing.

Other outfits chew guys up and spit them out from what I've seen and heard, and you need I think 4 years experience for your license. That alone weeds a lot of guys out.

I'll say one fucking thing that weeds 90% of guys out: the sun. I was working with a pretty easy going company, got the work done when you could but took the time to do it right. They went through helpers like hot cakes unless they were experienced workers, because the fresh faced high school kids just can't handle the work, heat, and/or pressure of responsibility. Most that answered their phone after the first day claimed something along the lines of heat stroke, after me trying to force water down their ignorant gullet the entire day.

I get paid my 75/hr+parts because I can endure a 160* attic for a short duration, and 130* outdoor temps for hours to install and charge a system, and then wire a t-stat all the while my client bitches about 80* in the house. It's really not difficult when you break it down, but some guys literally can't handle the heat sometimes.

>>1637590
>Not all installations can use MC cable. Sometimes you need EMT or IMC. Neither of which comes "pre-fab" with wire inside the conduit

get a load of this.. just need a machine to install it and another to go pull the wire.
https://gfycat..
com/hollowalarmedlab
radorretriever-wafios-akt
iengesellschaft-pipe-bendi
ng-machines


thinks Im spam

>>1634959
As a mechanic
We work with the 5 day work week, some deviation will apply for different jobs. I'm on call yet unemployed... I have a wierd setup with a shop

Trades to avoid? Don't be a mechanic.

Thought I'd love it because I love working on my own and I'm really good at it, hence the wierd situation where I'm on call. It's for cash, and when they can't do it.

Does that answer the question about being a 50 year old? Because I hate my life already and I'm not that old

>>1635071
Bottom tier would be concrete and roofing. Only for people that can't do better.

>>1635055
>collage
>collage

>>1639800
I can't handle people yelling at me, cause I get panic attacks. I guess the trades aren't for me

Why do people shit on the barber career? You can make good money owning a shop.

>>1635071
>>1635574
How does Fine Woodworking/Cabinetmaking rank? I'm going to a trade school for it in September.

>>1635960
Summertime stopped effecting 4chan years ago when phones became commonplace. Now kids can go on 4chan 24/7, no matter where they are or what they're doing.

>>1635193
this is accurate. it is way too hard to be an indy shop now with all the proprietary diagnostic tools. spending 50k on a scanner is a huge investment if you dont either specialize or get enough work.

>>1640275
you should join the marines

What trade is everyone in and how long have you been doing it? If you knew what you were signing up for would you have still done it?

>>1640481
sounds like high school shop class

>>1640173
I'm pretty sure its more expensive and prohibitive to use that machine than it is to pay a j-man $30-50/hr. Not to mention that not every electrical installation is straightforward enough to program the instructions into a pajeet-made robot.

>>1638751
>supply and demand doesn't exist

>>1636520
cause we only exist when they want data
also
barely a trade

>>1640828
maybe at 1st but then it ends up paying for itself and after that it becomes profit.

>>1640959
this

Q:also whats the hardest part about being a data guy?

A:ʎɐƃ ǝɹɐ noʎ pɐp ɹnoʎ ƃuillǝʇ

I'm enjoying drywall finishing. Hanging is alright but finishing is much easier on the body. Everything is chill in finishing except sanding. Fuck sanding.

What do you think about house inspecting? You can work only a few times a week and get several hundred dollars every inspection. Should I start doing some residential framing to get into it? You can apparently start without any experience but I want to know some.

>>1635071
I know a lot of old framers. To get that old, you know how to work smart. They make it look fucking easy, and me helping them with menial work made me feel like a knuckle-dragging retard.

>>1643229
99% are absolute fuckwits who prey on people.They look for major structural issues but that is it. It's a hell of a racket but nothing I'd be proud of. The few that do their jobs right are on most any property for at least 3 hours, upwards of 5-6 hours for a large house. Looking at everything down to how the paint is stuck to the wall because I have seen plenty of rehabs where new walls were not dusted and primed to save money and time and paint just peels off in sheets. So if you spend 5-6 hours on a single house you have to put in some hours to do two houses a day. Or you do one and you take your $500/day and live on that. Work six days a week. After insurance and taxes it isnt as attractive. Which is why many partner with other home services after they get your email and then bomb you with spam for months afterwards.

>>1638782
>get a load of the new guy on site, he's calling welders "sparky." Let's tell him to go find some level bubble.

engineer reporting in

you're all cucks

>>1634959
I work with pools, honestly it's not bad since you get to do a fair mix of those trades. You get the plumbing aspect of having to plan and install pipe systems, the electrics side with automatic programmers/setting up control systems, and even some light chemistry with keeping the water nice & clear.
Money's good, all right you're a bit limited geographically but it means you're usually going to be living in a nice warm area with easy access to water (I literally keep a pair of swimming shorts handy, quick dip into the client's pool to "check the lights" can do wonders for you on a hot day), work can be a bit dried up in winter but it's easily made up with the mad rush in summer. I tend to do a lot of installation/indoor lectrics in winter.

>>1635347
That is basically how I was hired as chief engineer
for a 30 story building. They needed some one for a small building with 90 water source heat pumps and 2 years later took over a high rise. Beats the hell out of driving around in a van all day and carting shit up and down 30 foot ladders.

>>1635347
That is basically how I was hired as chief engineer
for a 30 story building. They needed some one for a small building with 90 water source heat pumps and 2 years later took over a high rise. Beats the heck out of driving around in a van all day and carting heavy stuff up and down 30 foot ladders.

>>1639176
My mentor has been doing HVAC service and install for 53 years. He is now 76 and still gets around great. He doesn't talk about retirement either

>>1643652
sounds to me like he fucked up and cant afford to retire

>>1643715
I met an old millionaire who I thought was a hobo when I caught him in the trash out back. Turns out he owns property all over town, all over the country, and all over the world even. The guy just likes to stay busy in financially beneficial ways.

>>1634959
trades jobes are 100% mob run and the fields are impossible to enter unless you know Cousin Vinnie

>>1637032
is that pic meant to be satirical? or is the slave part an edit?

>>1643876
the slave part is an edit

>>1635641
Im in commerical hvac
Union. Dues this year is over 600.
Have crappy benefits
Horrible amount of stuff to put up with. I learned just to do the least i can get away with and never bring work home

>>1644133
>People tell me to do HVAC
>People tell me not to do HVAC

Come on guys which one is it?

>>1644459
Do HVAC but be an engineer.

What would you classify a retailer as? I work at a small lumber yard and am moving into managing our stock trim and windows and doors. Is there any sort of future in that? Should i try for sales instead or try to move into more architectural shit like blueprints? Is there any hope for me if i am already over 30?

>>1644463
>>1644459
Do HVAC but get into controls

I did the welding thing, but my instructor didn't really give me the exams I was meant to take, and just gave me straight Bs for coming to class. I also don't have my own rig. What's a good way to break out? I thought about joining an ironworkers union but I'm scared they won't take me. How difficult is it to join a union?

I'm a water plant operator, no degree required, most take you on as a trainee and you get your license in 6 months, you don't have to do shit except run tests once an hour and you make 60k here after about 5 years (median household income is 55k where I live). That and most are government jobs so sick benefits, I have great free health insurance, a pension, 401k (don't even have to match).
I'm 23 for reference, lots of room up with a community college degree, Lab Manager which makes 70k, and Chief Operator makes 75k, 80k with overtime. From there if you get a bachelors you can be a Superintendent which makes 90k and from there Water Resources Manager which is a 6 fig job. Really sweet gig if you get in young.

>>1644704
All you had to do was suck daddy's dick to get there. One simple trick that drives everyone else mad. Surely water plant operator is a widely and easily accessible job

>>1645031
Daddy lost the house when I was 17 and I worked as a live in special needs helper and part time lifeguard while getting my degree until I was 20. Went and worked in a warehouse at a pool company before being promoted to service tech in 6 months and field manager after a year. At 22 I drove 2.5 hours both ways to work at a water plant 12 hour rotating shifts for two months to afford a place in the city I was going to work in.

No help from anyone, just me willing to take every extra shift going into work on time with a smile on my face and a good attitude and willing to learn and put in the elbow grease.

How is stationary engineering? My friend does it and he seems to be OK.

>>1639013
EU here.
Why the fuck would someone fill out gap around socket with foam?

>>1645562
They shouldnt. Its here in the thread because its laughably bad

>>1645562
>>1645655
legit had to put caulking on recepts for my last job.. yoga room, high humidity and they didnt want any chance of mold growing inside the walls.

I did a thin layer so if there was any issues with it in the future the service guys wouldnt complain to me.

Aircraft Mechanic. no question best.

>>1635013

Yeah, being a mechanic is shit. You have to be one of the most skilled workers out there, but you get paid way less and treated like shit. Plus, the more you move up, the less you'll make, and the more frustrating work you'll have to do.

Makes no sense at all.

>>1646693
How many wrenches have you lost inside the engine?

>>1646693
I'm surprised you can keep that old bomb on the road.

>>1644121
That last one gets me the most. If I'm unhappy it's not advised to bring it up at all? I can either leave my job, or grit my teeth and bare it if I think there's something that could be improved. My boss would be thrilled if I quit my job instead of telling him I was unhappy and he had the opportunity to see how he could fix that.

>>1646693
bing bong bing bing bong.

>>1644121
I don't think this guy ever worked in trades except as a television/radio promoter.

A question for electricians, can a deck outlet cause fire if nothing is connected to it? I heard a story about that and I am suspicious. It is protected from the elements, right, and worst case it would just trip the circuit breaker, right? Also I understand how an overloaded outlet can cause fire but if nothing is connected to it at all??

>>1647281
>It is protected from the elements,

If this is true, then it's as safe as any outlet in your house. I was pressure washing once and I think I got some chlorox in an exterior outlet, and it started smoking and burned out, so that "protection from the elements" is the main thing, in my opinion.

>>1647281
I had a covered outlet at my parents house that had a big smoky burn mark for no obvious reason.
If nothing's connected nothing should go wrong, it's just that lots of things go wrong outdoors.

>>1647281
sparky here, if its gfci and has a proper cover the likelihood of anything catching on fire is pretty much 0.

When you take a regular outlet, no cover and normal breaker you can get a shock hazard with a little bit of water.
Now lets keep the same no cover, gfci, and standard breaker add a little water, and maybe some dry leaf or some other bullshit and now you have a fire hazard as well.
Or maybe just regular exposure to the elements like the sun beating cracking the plastic and then fall apart and whatever issues might be with that.

>>1641311
>maybe at 1st but then it ends up paying for itself and after that it becomes profit.
Would still be prohibitive. Trying to get a 500lb robutt up on a flat roof to wire up condensers & fresh air units vs getting a 160lb j-man to climb an extension ladder to do so. Not to mention the risk of the robutt overheating and malfunctioning in this summer heat/humidity.

>>1647307
no no no, you just get someone to take the measurements, then send those to the shop to bang them out and then have the guy go install it... I honestly do more or less this with some of my bigger pipe runs simply because I cant get a table bender on site and it needs to be bending for all the other jobs as well. Other times I just get the pre-made 90's if its just a few and it wont be in any exposed areas.

>>1647319
That takes more time and holds up production unless you're taking about something like 2"-4" rigid/IMC. Otherwise it's a lot quicker if you just send a guy up on the roof with some seal-tite, 50 feet of EMT, a bender, and fittings+straps.

>>1647336
in all actuality I am pretty much talking just larger pipe and all the stupid data drops we have to do... I like to bring prefab to vast majority of the job, not just some little task like a couple of condensers.. but you can however have the disconnect already bolted to a stand with a couple of liquidtight whips ready to plug in so install time is minimal, and you can have the crew prefabbing things like that in the down time so they are always productive.

If you start looking at some of the man-power swings these jobs want you to have it makes it hard to keep skilled guys around, especially if you have to lay them off right after a job finishes because the next job pushed the schedule a few months for some reason.

>>1647342
>some little task like a couple of condensers
Oh, youre one of those types.

>>1647345
how long do you think a condenser should take?

half day 1 guy? maybe a second for the wire pull?

I'm trying to talk about months of work and how to speed that up as a whole and you keep going on about condensers

>>1647348
Not him but I'm picturing a 4" conduit in a big cabinet with a bunch of cat5e/cat6 sitting in there connectorized on ms2 blocks. Other end is either the same or just long tails to drop.

I really want to experiment with crosstalk and see if ms2 would pass a cat6 qualification. It's so quick to splice that way.