/diy/ - Do It Yourself

>>1609588
Copper and concrete don’t mix.

>>1609593
>Copper
its not copper its actually plastic, PEX or something

>>1609593
The overall idea is to put some plastic pipes on the floor that will run warm water and then cover them with concrete to form something like a tiny slab. Is it viable for wooden construction?

Gonna want to nail in a few sheets of poly and tape them together before you do it, dont have wood and concrete mixing together. Also protip nail a metal frame to the floor and ziptie the radiant tube to the frame, make sure you follow regulations.
>.t Plumber

You wouldn't want to use concrete. You would use a self leveling compound,. Pretty much you should follow the radient heat installation instructions. They will tell you proper substrate prep, and what to cover it with,. Then you have to find a product that states it's good for going over whatever substrate your heat manufacturer says to use.

Ardex, cts cements, are my go to for cement portions of this job

Laticrete and schluter are great flooring and shower stuff. I prefer laticrete but I know schluter has a radient heat set up.

You need a special valving configuration or possibly a special water heater for water radient heat, I think electric is easier and unless you got gas hot water not any less effecient .

>>1609633
>>1609634
So the simplified stuff that the guy in the pic is making is totally wrong?

>>1609636
yes it's more like self leveling cement my bad for not wording it correctly. the benefit of using water is that you can introduce multiple heating sources simultaneously for example you can have gas or wood and electricity as backup. Also if you have heat pump you can reverse it and use it for cooling as well.

My biggest concern is how durable it will be? Wouldn't it crack because of the different thermal properties of the wood and concrete? Is it possible to use corrugated steel instead of OSB? Pic related

Thanks again guys.

What happens when it leaks?

>>1609647
It's sealed in the cement. Also the pex tube has no joints. It either leaks or don't. You test it before pouring.

>>1609644
You should be asking the manufacturer instead of us. Use a self leveling cement or epoxy or whatever which states this is an acceptable use.

>>1609588
>The plan is to pour some concrete over the OSB subfloor.

Concrete floors are very heavy...are we talking about first level subfloor of the basement?

>>1609697
Good fuckin point. Can your floor handle it?

>>1609697
it's not concrete, it's self-leveling gypsum cement

>>1609701
was he reffering to the first level floor of the house that house earth below? that might actually work, but any other position will make the OSB shitshack collapse even quicker

PS-if you want to do a radiant floor you dont have to concrete it you can cover it with wood so its much lighter, but NO OSB. OSB will melt from heat or at least give strong emmissions of glue

>>1609588
OSB is designed for shear loads, such as sheathing. It can't do lateral loads. whoever made the subfloor out of OSB and not plywood was an idiot.

that being said, it may be ok if the "concrete" is just a self leveling layer to cover the pex, which it appears so.

still stupid and there is a better way to do it, but I don't see any catastrophic issues here.

>>1609588
It's an easy way to build in radiant heating, but pouring directly onto OSB is stupid. You need a liquid barrier or the water gets sucked out of the mix before it has a chance to properly cure.
>>1609600
This is the correct way. Not only does that protect the subfloor, ti also provides insulation so the heat isn't lost to whatever is under that floor.

I've seen this done mostly in bathrooms or places where you are going to tile. Although you can put any regular floor or even carpet over it.

Also seen electric subfloor heating. But I'm not sure about how long that will last. At least with PEX it's going to outlast the owner.

>>1609702
>it's self-leveling gypsum cement

Im not sure what that is, but it almost certainly adds a a lot of mass to an already structurally compromised building since >OSB. Not a good idea. Why not cover a radiant floor with tounge in groove wood? wait a sec, lower part is still OSB, its wisest not to mess with a radiant floor since amerimutt construction materials are too unstable from the heat.

>>1609707
okay so in other words you have no idea what you're talking about

There are primers you paint on wood substrates prior to cement application. There are special self leveling compounds that are designed for use over wood substrates without primers. Read the technical data sheets.

I don't like gypcrete because it gets tore to shit if the finished floor is not installed within a few days. Cement products usually give weeks. Some a finished floor rated and don't require anything on top, but gypcrete will be fucked in 36 hours unless you don't walk on it untill you put a floor over it. Obviously light walking during install is ok but using for a few days untill next weekend when you got enough time is out of the question.

>>1609704
>whoever made the subfloor out of OSB and not plywood was an idiot.

https://www.thespruce.com/plywood-vs-osb-for-flooring-1821635

OSB is fine for sub-floor. The O stands for oriented, and it has a strong direction that goes joist to joist.

>pouring a porous, moisture attracting material on top of a material that even in solid natural form will rot, never mind a engineered variant that is a bunch of chips held together by adhesives and is notorious for going to shit when exposed to moisture

>>1609708
I know enough to know that you shouldnt add anything to an already unstable structure, unless we are talking about a basement floor that is leveled with earth

Germanfag here. Everytime in such threads i lol so hard about you murricans. Just spare the shitty wood and use only stone and concrete. Later you may use wood for interior fittings.

Pic related: a real house.

>>1609739
That's a nice house. Probably expensive to heat and cool though.

Solid as fuck I bet

>wood is not a long lasting building materi..

>>1609739
hey, regarding those old houses, was there an alternative to wood beams for floors? Now reinfroced concrete from 10-20cm thickness is standard in residential, but what have they used after wood and before reinforced concrete in art deco period do you know?

>>1609746
japs are masters of woodworking - not a nail in sight.

>>1609744
>Probably expensive to heat and cool though.

too heat yes, but not too cool, those houses are great in summer and most of them dont have AC monstrocities but cool by the thermal mass of the basement.

>>1609739
1 earthquake and all that is rubble. meanwhile the wood house is still standing and will handle many more earthquakes.

>>1609746
Aside from the fact that temples usually have an army of monks maintaining them constantly, I wasn't aware of any Japanese temples built with under-floor heating


...or built with OSB

>>1609759
>1 earthquake and all that is rubble.

no it wont lol, those walls are at least 50cm thick and the entire structure is very stouty with its own mass keeping it in place, it will stand still. Ive seen what happens with your "wood" houses with hurricanes.

>>1609758
As far as I know it's all wooden floorboards over joists.
In larger rooms there would be bigger beams to support the joists so they can span the distance between internal walls

God dammit don't turn this into another osb bad Japanese are the best Carpenters ever stone is apocalypse proof argument.

OP what decided

>>1609766
>As far as I know it's all wooden floorboards over joists.

Wasnt there a period in early 20th century when they started using something else than wood that wasnt RC or was it just an early adoptation of RC with less thick floors?

>>1609769
>OP what decided

its really a bad idea to do what OP wanted, the shack will fall apart. just let it be and invest that money in a steel roof

>>1609739 here.
I live in a house similar to the one in the pic. Wood beams are used for the floors, mostly over cross in a grid. Newer houses from 1850+ use steel beams.

>>1609764
in the house of my family, the lower walls are 160cm thick. This is really over - massive. No idea why they build it this strong. The haus ist build in 1903, but the basement ist from 17xy, when it was a barn.

>>1609775
The only buildings I've lived in from that era had parquet flooring

>>1609780
>parquet flooring

but for structural support they used RC not wood?

>>1609778
>in the house of my family, the lower walls are 160cm thick. This is really over - massive. No idea why they build it this strong.

that is crazy thick. Answer is isolation - you dont need to use those stupid poly foams when wall are that thick, but on the other hand, its quite expensive

>>1609784
nah all the support was wooden beams, the only RC was on the ground floor and stairwell

>>1609784
I guess the answer is war - in Germany, there was War each and every few Years, just remember the 30years war in 1618 - 1648 or similar "wars" between local Dukes, Earls and others.
Also, on the other hand, wood for fire was cheap - so no need for insulation. We in Germany have many wood.

>>1609588
OP you want to use pic related over the floor you have installed. Then you can put engineered hardwood over that. You can also install the radiant tubes under the subfloor between the joists if you have good access, called staple up.

>>1609600
What if one of those floor pipes freezes during the winter and then bursts? Or am I just being stupid?

>>1609954
as far as I know there are additives to the liquid, something like an antifreeze

>>1609648
Uh you are aware cement is porous right? And if you're pouring it straight on wood water WILL get to the wood right? And that plastic will age and fail eventually especially with 24/7 hot water running through it right?

>>1609928
I'm an euro faggot and unfortunately those are not available here. The best I could find pic related some gypsum boards with pre-carved channels in them. But the price is simply astronomical.

I was thinking about doing staple up, but using solid 2 by 8 lumber for the floor on 13 inch distance and it will be nightmare drilling so much holes and securing the pipes.

>>1609957
The water is not particularly hot the working temperature of the liquid is 30 to 40 degree Celsius (about the normal body temp). Also according to the pipe manufacturer the service life of the pipes is about 100 years or something.

Your'e absolutely right about the cement tho it will be a huge problem if there is a leak.

>>1609964
>when there is a leak
ftfy

>>1609697
It's about the second and the third floor which are entirely made of wood.

>>1609736
>>1609707
>>1609701
>Good fuckin point. Can your floor handle it?
According to the engineer a thin cement floor should be more than OK. the only concern that one might have is lowering the earthquake resistance, because the only benefit of the wooden structures it their low wight compared to concrete.

>>1609775
>>1609739
>the shack will fall apart
mate, it's not a shack I'm using about 20 cubic meters of C24 structural lumber and 6 tons of steel beams.

also having 80 cubic meters of reinforced concrete in the foundations and the first floor with all the bells and whistles of >muh concrete

in other words the house design is sound and complies to all the current Euro codes. Not using bricks because it's a mountain villa and I wanted it fast and the wooden house is giving you those comfy vibes in the winter cant explain it but with wood you can create a passive house more easily

pic somewhat related, not posting the original because not wanting to dox myself

>>1609769
>OP what decided
I really like the idea of having both wooden house and a solid (non squeaky and jumpy) floor. Using self leveling cement looks to be the right stuff to do, but the only problem is what to put as a subfloor instead of OSB some friends proposed to use magnesium board. since it's fire and water resistant. Also very tough:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hURHAO0_xaI

Someone having experience with the stuff?

>>1609981
>>1609977
>>1609600
>>1609633
>>1609588

pic related is what I'm intending to do.

>>1609981
Magnesium Oxide Board? Sounds too good to be true!

>>1609644
>Also if you have heat pump you can reverse it and use it for cooling as well.
Bad, bad idea having moisture condense inside the home like that.

>>1610169
How? The working temp is not enough for condensation.

u can also skip the cement and just recess it into the foam ive heated the floor of a school bus this way

>>1609961
made this type of thing myself from pink polystyrene rigid insulation and a knife

>>1609644
>pic is wrong
No, who knows what kind of compound he is using

>>1609977
>mate, it's not a shack I'm using about 20 cubic meters of C24 structural lumber and 6 tons of steel beams.
>also having 80 cubic meters of reinforced concrete in the foundations and the first floor with all the bells and whistles of >muh concrete

I got the wrong Idea, when you mentioned an OSB floor all I could think of is some oversized mcmansion. Mountain villas are usually very sturdy and can handle it, but choose the option with less mass in any case.

>>1609704
>OSB is designed for shear loads, such as sheathing. It can't do lateral loads. whoever made the subfloor out of OSB and not plywood was an idiot.
You have absolutely no idea what you're talking about.

>>1610206
Lol wut? Try to put some moisture in your calculations. OSB is shit. Moist OSB is even shitier.

>>1610218
Advantech OSB sheathing is more moisture resistant than plywood. It's stronger than plywood. It's more rigid than plywood. It's more uniform than plywood. It's superior to plywood in every way possible aside from price. I reiterate, you have absolutely no idea what you're talking about.

>>1610206
When someone says OSB is garbage, and you show them advantech, it doesn't change the fact that most OSB is garbage. The adventech website compares their own product favourably to OSB (they call their stuff advantech sheathing or advantech subfloor). They too think agree that OSB is crap.

>>1610232
If osb had a dick I would suck it. I fucking love it, I eat it ,live in it.

>>1609588
Google Ditra heat.

>>1610189
You must live in a desert.

>>1610232
I have a million dollar idea.
Plywood with OSB inside.

>>1609736
This picture again... $15 in OSB and a few hours to remove and reinstall. What a whiny bitch

>>1609717
>t. contractors who lobbied shit codes for job protection

Naw, fuck that. Give my metal, solid lumber, or masonry.

>>1610283
>repeat every 1-2 years

>>1610232
How does that compare to say solid lumber like shagbark hickory?

>>1610338
Solid lumber subflooring is basically obsolete at this point. The material is more expensive, it takes more labor to install, and doesn't have the same amount of stability as plywood or engineered OSB of the same thickness.

>>1609588
Why concrete? There are wooden subfloor systems designed to take PEX tubing systems. You usually install a floating floor system on top so no nails are needed that might go through tubing.

There are also these plastic (see pic) mats that you can lay on top of wood subflooring, snap in the PEX and pour thinset mortar over.

>>1610337
> is not required

>not using electric for your floor heat

>>1610402
>expensive and dangerous
those magnetic fields all over the house mate...

>>1610376
>The material is more expensive
it is not. it's cheaper actually. just take the lowest possible grade.
>takes more labor to install
and pay additionally to install it.

then the price will be the same, but you will have an actual wooden floor that can stay in mint condition for centuries

>>1610402
>lets turn every floor into a mini faraday cage!

wifi is kill

>>1610485
>faraday cage
you will beg for one of these when the 5G comes

>>1609703
Why not build the concrete radiant floor outside and move it in when it is done

>>1610646
lol wut?

>>1609954
>>1609956
>What if one of those floor pipes freezes during the winter and then bursts?
In that case you are fuck'd.
At least here in Finland we use regular tap water to fill floor pipes. You need to keep the system up and running during below zero temperatures.
You could equip the system with draining/emptying (terms?) valves at the lowest point, from which you drain the system when it is not in use during winter.
Just open the valve and some nut from the manifold and let the system drain.

>>1609644
That pic is a composite steel-concrete deck. They're used structurally as a thinner alternative to timber joists with ply/OSB sub-flooring. You wouldn't normally put underfloor heating into the structural concrete zone - you'd run it through a screed on top of this deck.

>>1609954
You have to leave the house unabitated for the whole winter to have such temperatures inside

>>1609600
Why not just mark the overlay osb and cut a billion pieces to fit between the pipes

>>1609633
This. Adding 5 tumes the amount of potential surprise pinhole leaks. Personally I'd just throw it on the ground under the house if you can get under it

>>1609644
Fuck expensive heat pumps and shit. Just hide a wall of radiators outside

>>1609647
The europoors crack tired samefaggot jokes about osb and wood houses because their ancestors were masons and they are cucks

>>1609704
Cover pex tubing in 2 part clear epoxy resin. Then can see leaks!

>>1609717
They make different osb for floors and walls but no idea wtf its called

>>1609732
Nvm
Didbt read the thread. Here they are

>>1609739
Yeah. Foot the 3 millipn dollar bill for a single family. ...fantastic idea

>>1609954
It should have qarm water flowing through it. Or at the very least throw a fitting on and pump rv antifreeze into all the spouts

>>1609973
This. I have 8 rental houses. The newest was built in the 60s. Fucking kill me

>>1609707
You got the idea but not quite the right product.

Youtube self leveling subfloor. It's not concrete, but like thin pancake batter. Unlock concrete your can use it on wood.

Make sure you spray foam everything and plug any holes that it could run down and scrape the foam away later.

For love of god test the system a lot before you cover it.

>>1609784
>that is crazy thick. Answer is isolation - you dont need to use those stupid poly foams when wall are that thick, but on the other hand, its quite expensive
also stability
back then they had rather weak mortar.
For stability they also used thicker walls.
Even though 160cm are very thicc.

When it was built in the 18th century I dont think anyone would have thought, that a house might be attacked with explosives.
Maybe another reason could be fire protection.
A house with such thick walls literally cant burn down.
Maybe the roof is gone but the rest will remain.