/diy/ - Do It Yourself

Gl bump

Need a better pic. Doesn't look PEX. Maybe polyethylene. You're going to have to dig it out better to replace it, do it now and take some better pics.

>>1135233
Tomorrow morning I will dig and get a better picture. Tonight I look to see if the city is being a dick by not giving me water usage history for the property. Just bought this home in December and I want to see if there was a leak before I bought it. I called the city to ask and they said privacy laws protect usage but everyone I speak to say that's bullshit.

Do you not have a water meter at the beginning of your property near the road?

>>1135519
>>1135519
>>1135519
I do, that's how I know there is a leak. The leak detector spins

>>1135528

Have you already checked all the commodes and outside sill cocks and made sure none of them are leaking?

You can either pay a leak detection company or you can try to isolate the leak.

Put a ball valve half way from the metwr too the house and another one right before the water comes into the house from under the slab.

Turning the water off at each valve tells you roughly where it's at

The majority of mains line leaks on houses built on slabs are in the slab, because the plumber didn't put a sheath on the line and the slab rubbed a hole in the line.

Need better pictures of what kind of material your line is

>>1135533
Buddy bought a house and one of the stipulations was that the drain tile needed to be repaired. The seller either did it themselves or hired a shit company. They managed to cause a small leak in the water main which ran into the sump.

They couldn't find out why the water usage was so high when they got the quarterly bill. Plus the sump pump basically ran every 15 minutes as it kept filling.

>>1135533
>>1135551
Have checked all the obvious solutions and used a stethoscope to locate to no avail. Turned off valves to washers, sinks, toilets, heaters, refrigerator, and sprinklers, meter leak gauge still spins. Shut off at the street, meter stops. Dug up where the sprinkler attached to the supply line, that joint is not wet. The joint at the house with the valve is not wet. Can't hear hissing or flowing water, no wet spots on walls, no green patches in yard, no muddy or sunken areas. I live by myself, haven't watered grass. Moved in 12/28, from 12/9 to 12/31 city says I used 6000 gallons and from 12/31 to 1/29 12000 gallons. I took a picture of the meter at 12AM and again at 9:30AM and showed a 90 gallon difference ~ 20oz minute, tiny. No good option for the leak to be. Inside the home you get to demolish shit then use insurance after I hit my deductible of $1900 and who knows what happens to my insurance rates, out in the yard and insurance won't cover it and the line goes under the driveway. I'm wondering if it is in the yard can I (or they) just attach a new line to the old one and pull it through, under the driveway, like you would a wire through a wall.

Pic related it's what 20oz/min looks like.

>>1135533
>>1135551
>>1135571
If the fucking city would give me usage data without claiming "privacy laws" that would be great. The home was vacant when I viewed it in November. The seller would have known via 7000 gallon (at least) water bill. Not sure if suing will make financial sense. Everyone says to lawyer up but just the mere discussion of the topic with them will cost $200 probably.

Pic related. After digging around my backflow valve for the sprinkler and seeing where it taps into the supply line, I could see the supply line went at a diagonal as indicated by the shovel. It goes to the front of the home right beside the front door where the sewer clean out stick out of the ground. You can also see where the water meter box is. Supply line comes out of the box (right under the sidewalk) at a diagonal.

>>1135119
Why does that pipe appear to have a tumor..?

>>1135587
>>1135587
Valve so badly corroded it essentially turned into a rock. The backflow preventer was the same way. They have a valve before and after the actual backflow preventer device and both were corroded to the point that grabbing the valve handle broke it off. I had to use vice grips on the valve stem to close it. One of them was also rock-like. I tapped it with a screw driver handle and it crumbled with no resemblance of actually being a handle.

>>1135590
That's insane. Wish I could help, thanks for the answer.

Lol no one seems to want to give some advice. This is what I need to replace. Not sure if it screws in at the valve, solders, or do I need to cut the line...

>>1135990

Cuz if you do something well why would you do it for free? You got screwed for being a moron and not checking the plumbing before buying a house. Now get a plumber or buy a book and get a clue

>>1135992
>on /diy/
>tell people to have someone else do it

I don't know your level of knowledge, so give more info if you experience, or if you don't even have proper tools

FIRST! clean off the plastic pipe and find markings, make sure it is pex and not blue poly butylene. If it's blue PB, things are a lil different, so ignore the rest of this post and reply

>>1135990
First, gate valve isn't it? Clean it off or spray it with penetrating oil.
You should be able to take the handle off to replace
Gate valves are pretty hard core, if they get jammed you can take em apart use a lil grease and put em back together, then put whatever handle you want on there. Spray some antirust all over it and put a valve box on it.
Look up parts explosions of gate valves and see if you want to try it.
If you can't get it apart, break it, or just want to replace it just for the hell of it...

Copper side is shitty unless you can solder and the right side is a male copper adapter screwed into a hybrid style fitting I haven't seen in person before. (I've only seen stab fittings, clamp, crimp, or uponor style)

If you want to replace it and don't want to solder, just cut the copper on the vertical at a nice clean round spot with a tubing/pipe cutter (the kind with a round blades) and then you can use a sharkbite style push fitting 90/ell to the replacement valve. You can use compression fittings if you don't like push fittings.

At a big box store, you have another gate valve with threaded ends, a pvc ball valve, or a ball valve with the metal level style handle. use antirust and valve box around it regardless.

On the plastic side: you can unscrew the copper adapter and replace it with a push fitting to male adapter.
If you're sure it's pex, you could just replace the grey with a sharkbite.
Fill gap with pex or copper of appropriate size.
---------
If you're sure it's pex, and have pipe cutter for the verticle copper, and sharp saw for pex side, take out the whole assembly,carry it to a store and have someone help you put together a replacement.

And are you dead sure there isn't a valve inside the house, under a sink or in a closet to turn off the house?

house that new should definitely have a cut off inside the house

And I've never seen a backflow preventor under ground where it's hard to service and test yearly.
Sure it's not a pressure regulator?

Make sure your water heater isn't leaking, check the pan.
Turn off valve at water heater too to check the hot side inside the house before doing any work outside


Also, other notes or tips:
a supply valve at a sink, toilet or such can fail, so a toilet could run quietly even if you think the valve at the wall is shutoff.

If your yard is sod on clay, you could have a leak making a lake that drains down under the street without ever coming to the surface.
Likewise if it's under the drive.
You have to poke around in the ground with a probe or a really long screwdriver to check for soft spots.
If leak is in yard, dig it up and fix it.
If leak is under drive, that looks like 1" plastic tubing/pex/pb/whatever. You can thread 3/4 or 1/2 inch pex inside it instead of repairing the pipe, and just connect the new smaller pex at each end.

I've only seen copper leaks under slabs a handful of times in 10 years, so at least that part is unlikely.
And I don't know code in your area, and if you plan on selling it soon, etc, but you can often cap/isolate the leaking line if it is under slab and then bypass it with pex through attic.

One more comment, update.

I've been looking for that hybrid grip/push fitting to identify it out of curiosity, and finally found one in a pic.
pic related

It also happened to be related to Blue PB.

That shit was banned for a reason, here it ends up brittle and gets cracks etc.

If it is blue polybutylene, that's most likely where your problem is. It'll have a paper thin crack somewhere, and if it's on bottom, it'll just run under the pipe and find somewhere to drain without making it to the surface.

If you can find the crack, you can cut out that section, use metal dresser couplings or sharkbite pushfittings sized for PB.

If you can't find the leak, you have have to hope you can just cut off the ends and thread new pex through it, it came in rolls, so there shouldn't be any tight bends pex couldn't go through. If it's collapsed or pinched under ground, it might not let the pex thread through it, but you can just measure how far you got, then dig up and cut out the pinched spot.

If it is blue pb, even if you fix it now, plan to replace it. Either threading new pex through it, or digging a trench for PVC or pex. You can dig big holes on either side of the driveway to tunnel under it, or use a concrete saw and cut out a strip.

>>1136031
Just looked at your pics again. I see the PB2110 marking right at the fitting.
It's PB.
It's fucked.
Find the leak and fix it and replace it later,
or replace it now.

I suggest threading pex through it, so you don't dig up the yard and might not draw attention and get away without pulling a permit

>>1136036
>>1136036
Thank you for the information! I would love for it to be in the yard and not the house. I ran into clay at about 12" down, pipe laid at 20", not sure why the copper did 90º to go deeper into the ground. I was pretty sure 20" was already below the slab.

My only concern with running a smaller line inside is:
1) The outlet of the meter is directly under the sidewalk so I don't know how it would connect at the meter and how I would reach it. I guess I could tunnel under the sidewalk.
2) Smaller line, less head pressure at the house (inspectors gauge on the house bibb showed 80PSI), less volume, will it keep up with the demands of the sprinklers? I see after the home shut off the copper is reduced down so the supply line size shouldn't be an issue for the home needs volume wise, pressure not sure.

Actually side note, the T junction from the meter to the backflow preventer to the supply line could probably be used to hook the smaller line to. I would get full capacity to the sprinklers since everything upstream won't be touched, avoid fucking the sidewalk, and run the new line in a "protective" sleeve we'll call it.

Side note #2, yes it was a backflow preventer, both that and this house shut off had boxes on them but the boxes didn't go deep enough and they were buried about 6" in dirt even inside the box.

Side note #3: Yah I shut everything off, water heater, sinks, toilets, sprinklers and it still spun. And yes, I already know my 2 toilet shut offs hiss however the tank level does not change and the clean out hose that goes into the overflow pipe doesn't drip, despite the meter consistently spinning.

Side note #4: Of the 3 bathroom sinks, all 3 shut offs leak out of the stems when twisting but not when fully closed/open. 2 of the sinks, after closing and then opening, only trickle out so I think the rubber has clogged up the valve.

TL:DR I have to replace all those valves but I know that's not my problem with this leak.

>>1136020
>>1136026
>>1136031
>>1136036
Also, I will look at a gate valve break down. If I'm PEX'ing anyway I may cut this thing out and do sharkbites. I want to make sure it isn't the house first so I need to either cap the PB line or get a working valve. I am assuming I can tear it down, replace the rubber washer/stopper, right out the top where the stem comes through. Not sure if wrenching on it will break the solder joints anyway.

I can't figure out if PVC is potable or not. I read varying things

Sorry for potato quality. it's the fucked valves on the backflow preventer. Of the 2 valves, only one turned with some gentle but firm effort. The other is a lost cause. I will need to replace the unit later. I see them for about $110 at Homedepot.

>>1136369
gate valves don't use washers, they are metal wedges that slide up and down.

copper went deeper to go under footing

Always use 2 wrenches etc when taking apart valves or a threaded junction

bathroom stops: leak at stem is because packing washer moves around as it ages, it'll only seal at full open or closed. You fix that by taking packing nut loose (while water off at street) and wrapping graphite packing in around stem between nut and old packing washer
The ones that are stopped up, you can take packing nut loose, then unscrew stem/valve core and dig out old washer, and put new washer on stem, it's likely 00/"double ought"
But,you're doing shit anyways,I'd replace with quarter turn valves to make life easier. You can leave the old ferrule and nut on the pipe if it's compression and just put new valve in place reusing them. If they leak you'll have to replace them, use a puller to get them off

PVC is potable, just use schedule 40 and pressure fittings,not dwv fittings (less area to glue,they wont hold)
PVC goes outside house or dwv only, CPVC goes inside house only

if you use pvc, use threaded fittings to make the transition from pvc to copper. male on the copper side, female on the pvc side. You can use a coupling, and bushing (one slip/glue, one threaded) the next size up to make the junction beefier.

PVC is IPS(iron pipe size)
copper,cpvc,pex is CTS (copper tubing size)
threads are the same sizes
remember by:
shit goes through pipes, so measure inside
tubing goes through shit, so measure outside

Valves at the backflow preventer, they are quarter turn ball valves, if you clean off the outside with shit to remove rust, you can replace the handle and nut
My suggestion would be to just add another valve in line instead.
yes, connect after tee, connection to meter is a bitch if you aren't used to it

Static pressure all same, only flow rate changes. lower pressure inside w/out regulator means leak

Spend extra dollar, sharkbite brand only

Doesn't look like I will be able to use the PB as a sheath, it only measures 1" OD. I will have to measure again because tables are showing it should be 1 1/8" avg OD. I can still try. I will call up the city and see what their engineer says about the idea. I don't want to avoid permits and get fined or caught when I go to sell the home however many years from now. I did notice one area that is slightly green and the sidewalk is sunken to the drive way. Ground is "softer" than other areas and my wooden stake seemed to pick up some moisture. Pic related.

If I can't sleeve it I will need to find someone who can pull new tubing through the pre-existing hole if possible. I have 2 mature trees out front and the only other option to avoid fucking their roots and killing them is to gingerly dig, which I can do. I bought this home for several reasons, big trees being one.

>>1136900
That's 50/50 leak or drainage problem, but since you're looking for a leak I'd say it's a goo 70%+ chance theres a leak right there, dig up that corner and see what it's like.
Probably there or near and you can fix it yourself.
There are sharkbite PB to pex transition adapters if you need to take out a big section

When you put the valve at the house transition from PB to copper to make sure the leak is in yard and not house, you can be sure of what size the ID is.
But more than likely,if the PB measures 1 inch OD, or just over, you should be able to run 3/4 pex through there.

But go ahead and put the valve in at the house if the leak isn't there, then you can know if it's in the yard for sure.

If I to a job like that, meters spinning and I can't find anything inside, I'd be digging up that spot immediately and expecting to find a leak within a foot most times. That's a good spot for settling to cause stress on the line and let it crack along the bottom. There's likely construction trash buried there too

If the PB is big enough to get 3/4 pex in there, and you need a pro to do it, then you can call
around and get an estimate.
Tell them you have a leak under your drive, you just need pex fed through the PB and hooked up at both sides.

If that doesn't work, and you still want to save every dollar you can, and don't want a trencher or backhoe in the yard,
you can try and do your own digging and see if you can tunnel under drive and the walkway to put in a section of 1 or 1.25 inch PVC under freeze line under each one. Take the shortest path across the drive.
Read up on tunneling with pipe/water or whatever, dig up both side of drive and tunnel.
Get your trench and those pipes ready to thread it through and call around to get someone to put the new pex line in.
Might even run the new line and just have them connect it

>>1135992
Get off my board

>>1136990
>>1136990
I was only mentioning not being able to sheath because on other forums people seem to have problems running 3/4" through like... 1.5" Of course they have turns and in some cases are pulling more than 100'. I'm right at 100' and whatever bends are in there are curved gently anyway for the PB. If I have to dig my own I may hire someone to do a trenchless install. Ask them to run the line and I will hook it up. There was an exceptional amount of rock and construction trash. I don't know how trenchers handle big rocks but I might not have a real option. I also have to think the labor, lawn repair, and time (meter is spinning every night when I turn the water on) it would take for me to do it by hand versus paying joe blow $500 to pull it through.

Unless of course I can manage to pull 0.875" OD PEX through 0.921" ID PB. I would be surprised if that was do able.

Someone mentioned maybe just unscrewing the PB from the valve and plugging it instead of fucking with valve replacement or any of that shit. My biggest worry for all of this work is that I fuck something up and have to shut the water off completely and address the problem NOW. I may try working the valve just for shits and giggles. Thanks for the help

>>1138064
last time I saw an estimate from a business with a fleet of trucks, it was a little over 5,000 for about 40 foot of yard, straight shot with a trencher.

Cheapest I've seen is $900 to bypass and route around a leak under a tree for about 20 foot by an old plumber and their helper.

trenchless boring or pipe bursting is a premium service you pay extra to avoid tearing up the yard

Rental self propelled 3 wheel ditchwitch style trencher will eat through most everything but concrete, large gravel, and roots over an inch or so. Saw for big roots or just dig under. Then for concrete it's up to the installer to decide semi-tunnel, concrete saw, or jackhammer.


The hooking up to the house and meter/service is the part that is supposed to require a permit or license.
You can bury pipes and hoses all day long in your yard as long as you don't hook them to the city line.

If you have time, try digging for the leak if it's not too deep and you think it'll be with a couple of foot. A couple hours of digging and a couple of repair fittings is the cheapest immediate answer.

If you are worried about screwing up, find a plumbing shop, go there and get push fittings that will fit the PB ahead of time, before you work on anything.
Ask their advice in person too. Things are easier to explain in person.

Good luck whatever you do, drop in to let us know how it turns out.

>>1138095
I have decided to dig on. I can't justify even hundreds (because I am a cheap ass) on something I can do myself. Sunday I will work on shutting off the house valve. If it is determined to be in the yard which I hope it is I will start digging every night.

So my second question, do you think it's a good idea to lay 2" maybe 3" PVC and run the pex through it for protection and also for easy of install (hopefully) if this were to happen again? I noticed a lot of construction waste on the one hole I dug. I could just as well sift through the dirt before filling back in. I don't know if it's stupid or overkill, or if it will mask a leak if another occurred. You wouldn't see any floods except at the ends of the PVC. Also may run into trouble with that going under the driveway. I see some different boring options and I will have to go to plumbing supply to see if I can get a rental tool. I could power wash/spray a hole but if there is construction waste under there too then that obviously won't work. Long story short, if I can't bore a 3" ish hole to lay PVC then that idea may be useless. I've seen on Youtube this Bullet Mole thing that looks really promising.

By the way, am I able to call 811 and have these lines located on my property. I get mixed results about the things that are on MY private property. Once I cross under the driveway I will have to worry about power and gas lines.

>>1136031
anyone who installed that shit under a slab should have known that was a disaster waiting to happen. you can tell from the picture. you don't even have to see it in person.

>>1136369
>>1136768

When I do designs for potable water, I use HDPE. Might be easier to work with in this situation. SDR11 should be sufficient.

>>1139448
the copper is under the slab, which is normal and in most homes in the last 40 years at least

If you mean having grey Quest PB pipe under the slab, which OP doesn't, it was normally sheathed in pvc, and at the time it was the miracle material of the future but hadn't had time to be properly tested before large deployment in consumer homes. But at the time it was normal.

Good news. It is in the yard. I put a pipe wrench on the gate valve handle and with little force broke it free. It spun freely I thought I snapped the stem. Turn it by hand I heard a crunch and saw part of the top nut fall off. It does leak when twisting but if you crank it down open/close it holds. It successfully held water when closed, confirmed by turning on the faucet and the meter was still spinning.

Now I need ideas for boring under the driveway. I may not bother digging up the old line as I think it goes diagonally under the driveway. The only reason why I would at this point is is if I could couple the new line with the old line (which I checked is 3/4" CTS PB) and pull the new line through while pulling the old line out. If that isn't feasible I will leave it in the ground and dig a new route. I won't attach it to the meter because I don't want to tunnel under the sidewalk. It' about 4ft to the backflow preventer box where the T connection is at and I will attach to that.

Despite not touching the meter I think I may have to pull a permit which kind of blows. I will call them tomorrow. Lastly I need to call 811 and see where my power lines go (if they mark private property). I'm hoping they come from the backyard (there is an easement in the backyard) so I can just go at it without any worry.

>>1140953
if the soil is loose enough, you can pull a new line under the drive where the old one is, but needs heavy duty rope through both pieces plus wench if not loose soil

tunneling under drive:
cheapest fastest way is use a concrete saw to cut a strip next to an existing expansion joint, like the one by the sidewalk or near garage then trench and bury under there. Rental concrete saw is usually less than 100 for a day & cut a strip in just an hour if you get one of the large ones, then sledge hammer and a trenching shovel to get below freeze line.
Fixing a 6" strip of drive is easy.

or if you don't want to cut concrete, here are a few:

dig hole at least 3x3x3 on sides of drive, use water going through pipe to ram it wash loose dirt out. needs at least cheapy sump pump to not have to work under water. (diy drill water well on youtube, same idea)

Dig hole, use 1/2 drill with some auger bit, like for wood, add extensions as you go.use drill bit inside or extensions routed through 1" pipe that you push in as you go. since the pipe is a sheath, you can just use short pieces and couplings

There are adapters to large rotary drills that would just pound the hell out of a pipe to ram it through, you'd just need to try and get out dirt from pipe with water occasionally. plus if you run water as you go, it softens the soil and makes the pipe ram faster.

You're "supposed" to get a permit anytime you work on plumbing that connects to the city line, even pipes in your house.
And usually to pull a permit requires a license and inspections. If you want to do it legit but save a lot of money, run the pex yourself, leave it exposed for inspection with lots of slack on both sides, then have the plumber come do the actual connections at each end.
Whether the plumber actually pulls the permit isn't your problem, you are clear as long as a licensed plumber sees the pex is legit, and does the connections on each end.

Gas,telephone,cable,power should mark your yard for you.