/ck/ - Food & Cooking

[Anonymous No.6305730]

Is is ethical to raise your kids vegan?

[Anonymous No.6305735]

No, I knew of a friend who tried to do this so I called child services on her.

[Anonymous No.6305837]

>>6305730
No. You should leave the choice to them.

[Anonymous No.6305840]

I'd wager it's healthier than the cheetos and Chef Boyardee diet I knew a lot of kids had growing up.

[Anonymous No.6305856]

No.

[Anonymous No.6305858]

I've been a vegan for about 6 years and I don't think it's ok to raise kids vegan. When children are growing they need crazy amounts of protein with a good amino acid profile. In addition to the vitamins it's difficult to get from non animal products. Vegetarian might be fine.

Now that I'm fully developed it's safe for me to eat like a squirrel, but I think most doctors and nutritionists would tell you it's bad for kids.

[Anonymous No.6305863]

>>6305730
I'd say no, since you can't really predict how strictly vegan food would influence their physical or interllectual development.

[Anonymous No.6305873]

>>6305730
It's the most ethical

[Anonymous No.6305880]

>>6305858
You've been brainwashed, dongle. Tell me what vitamins are missing.

Your position on the protein thing reveals how little you've researched nutrition in any serious fashion. No one who knows anything about the subject considers protein an issue.

[Anonymous No.6305888]

>>6305880
>Tell me what vitamins are missing.

Probably these ones?

>Vegans Sergine and Joel Le Moaligou fed their 11-month-old daughter Louise only mother's milk, and she died suffering from a vitamin deficiency. The two are currently on trial in northern France, charged with neglect.

>An autopsy showed that Louise was suffering from a vitamin A and B12 deficiency which experts say increases a child's sensitivity to infection and can be due to an unbalanced diet ... The couple did not follow the doctor's advice to hospitalize the baby who was suffering from bronchitis and was losing weight when they went for the nine-month check-up.

[Anonymous No.6305907]

>>6305880
>Tell me what vitamins are missing.
b12, A, D in significant amounts
>No one who knows anything about the subject considers protein an issue.
Yes they do, because it's more than just grams of protein, its about a balance of amino acids that make up the protein you are eating.

Are you the guy that says you can eat 1500 calories of potatoes and get 72 grams of protein and pretends that isn't completely retarded?

You probably could raise a vegan child healthy, but it would take a crazy amount of work to not have certain deficiencies and it's just retarded to risk it on your children.

[Anonymous No.6305910]

>>6305888
Meat eaters are statistically as likely to suffer from B12 deficiency as vegans. Vitamin A deficiency is also very common among pregnant women, especially in the third trimester and through the breast feeding years. Furthermore, the best sources of vitamin A are fruits and vegetables. What you've cited there is a couple of idiots who eschewed medical advice.

[Anonymous No.6305930]

i would have to ask a doctor/nutritionist

[Anonymous No.6305933]

>>6305930
>nutritionist
kek, why not just ask a fortune teller?

[Anonymous No.6305936]

>>6305907
Again, vitamin D deficiency isn't something that's limited to vegans because diet is a notoriously bad source of vitamin D. Sunlight is the most important factor, and in areas where sunlight exposure is poor, supplementation is commonly recommended by medical professionals, especially and doubly so for pregnant women. You act as if nonvegan mothers aren't strongly encourage to take vitamin supplements, when they most certainly are.

Again, protein is really a nonissue to anyone who knows anything about nutrition.

There are plenty of blogs detailing parents who have raised their children vegan from the womb and they turn out hella fine. But please, quote me more cases of people feeding their babies almond milk and crackers as a case for why veganism is bad.

[Anonymous No.6305954]

>>6305930

doctor's don't receive training on nutrition and nutritionists are retarded homepath-tards

you mean a dietitian

[Anonymous No.6305958]

>>6305730
No

[Anonymous No.6305959]

>>6305954
>doctor's
>'s
>'

Given that mistake, why should we listen to anything you have to say?

I mean, I agree with you but the overwhelming fucktardedness surrounding your apostrophe misuse is making me want to argue with you.

[Anonymous No.6305967]

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2036671/Vegan-couple-serve-life-sentences-starving-baby-death-extreme-diet.html

[Anonymous No.6305976]

>>6305959

I just woke up, believe whatever the fuck you want but I'm right.

You're the one who thinks doctors have extensive training in tradition and that nutritionists are anything other than useless, which is far more egregious than a fucking typo.

[Anonymous No.6305992]

>>6305907

You have to take a vitamin D supplement anyway if you live way up north. I'm from Lapland so I've taken one my whole life. I don't see how that's a big deal or proves that vegans can't be healthy.

[Anonymous No.6305994]

>>6305976
>dietician, nutritionist
it's an easy mistake. lighten up bucko

[Anonymous No.6306000]

There is wide consensus among dietetic associations that appropriately planned vegan diets are healthy for all stages of life.

According to the American Dietetic Association (http://www.eatright.org/WorkArea//DownloadAsset.aspx?id=8417):

>It is the position of the American Dietetic Association that appropriately planned vegetarian diets, including total vegetarian or vegan diets, are healthful, nutritionally adequate, and may provide health benefits in the prevention and treatment of certain diseases. Well-planned vegetarian diets are appropriate for individuals during all stages of the life cycle, including pregnancy, lactation, infancy, childhood, and adolescence, and for athletes.

Similarly, the British Dietetic Association (https://www.bda.uk.com/foodfacts/vegetarianfoodfacts)) describes veganism as a type of vegetarian diet and continues:

>Well planned vegetarian diets can be both nutritious and healthy. They have been associated with lower risks of heart disease, type 2 diabetes, obesity, certain types of cancer and lower blood cholesterol levels.

>Well planned vegetarian diets are appropriate for all stages of life.

[Anonymous No.6306004]

>>6305936
>Again, protein is really a nonissue to anyone who knows anything about nutrition.
It's not though
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amino_acid
Vegans are typically going to be deficient in a few of the essential ones no matter how hard they try to perfect their diet. Some are nearly impossible to get enough of. This can be seriously bad for developing brains.

Over 90% of vegans and 50% of vegetarians are deficient in b12 and it's a similar story with rivoflavin/zinc/iron/calcium. So supplements don't seem to be helping.

If you want to give your kid anemia, neuromuscular problems, impaired cognitive function that is irreversible , stunted growth etc. go ahead. But I hope CPS takes your kids away before you permanently ruin them.

[Anonymous No.6306008]

>>6306000
cont'd:

The position of the Australian Government's National Health and Medical Research Council (http://www.nhmrc.gov.au/_files_nhmrc/publications/attachments/n55_australian_dietary_guidelines_130530.pdf)) is that:

>Appropriately planned vegetarian diets, including total vegetarian or vegan diets, are healthy and nutritionally
adequate. Well-planned vegetarian diets are appropriate for individuals during all stages of the lifecycle.

Finally the Dietitians of Canada (http://www.dietitians.ca/Nutrition-Resources-A-Z/Factsheets/Vegetarian/Eating-Guidelines-for-Vegans.aspx)) state:

>A vegan eating pattern has many potential health benefits. They include lower rates of obesity, heart disease, high blood pressure, type 2 diabetes and certain types of cancer. Other benefits include lower blood cholesterol levels and a lower risk for gallstones and intestinal problems.

>This eating pattern can take some extra planning. Vegans must make sure that enough nutrients like protein, iron, zinc, calcium, vitamins D and B12 and omega-3 fats are included.

If you're too dense to raise your kids on a vegan diet, you shouldn't be having kids in the first place imo.

Feeding kids meat is depriving them of choice in a similar way that feeding them vegan food is. When my kids have jobs and buy their own food they can eat whatever they want, but under my roof they'll eat a more sustainable and more ethical diet.

[Anonymous No.6306011]

Only if you're ok with your kid looking like they are in their 40's at the age of 26. Pic related a vegan at 26

[Anonymous No.6306017]

>>6306004
source on statistics please?

[Anonymous No.6306021]

The position of the American Dietetic Association is that a vegetarian or vegan diet is safe for all ages and stages of life and may confer health benefits.

There's really not a lot of difference between a healthy vegan diet and a healthy non-vegan diet. Any healthy diet is based on plant foods, the vegan diet just includes more plants.

[Anonymous No.6306029]

>>6306011

That's a "raw vegan" which is as similar to a regular vegan diet as a person who eats nothing but raw meat is to your diet. I don't think eating a steak would turn her genes into attractive genes either

[Anonymous No.6306035]

>>6306004
>cites as evidence the wikipedia article on amino acids
oh am i laffin

[Anonymous No.6306046]

>>6305888

It doesn't tell you anything about the rarity of such a thing when isolated cases manage to become international news? When we see childhood obesity levels continue to rise, why not argue that's what happens when "carnist parents" try to raise children on meat?

[Anonymous No.6306051]

>>6305936
>There are plenty of blogs detailing parents who have raised their children vegan from the womb and they turn out hella fine.
Blogs are not published scientific papers, scrutinized by fellow scientists.

>But please, quote me more cases of people feeding their babies almond milk and crackers as a case for why veganism is bad.
You're the one making crazy claims and not bringing forth any proof. Why don't YOU post credible sources that back up your claim that children raised as vegans turn out ok.

[Anonymous No.6306057]

>>6306046

Because the vegetarian kids are little fatties just as much as the "carnist" kids are.

On the other hand, it's very unusual for a child in the developed world to die from malnutrition, but it's not unheard of in the context of Veganism.

[Anonymous No.6306060]

>>6305730
I dunno, my dad was a hunter and raised me to be one also. Ate all sorts of delicious animals.

[Anonymous No.6306063]

>>6305730
>my children's health and wellbeing is less important than that of an animal.
oh yeah, they're totally great parents.
On a more serious note. I wouldn't let my kids be vegan. I'd sneak in animal proteins if necessary. They can be morons when they're 18 if they like, but until I'm no longer responsible for them, fuck that.

[Anonymous No.6306064]

If you haven't had an elk burger, you haven't lived. Bison burger is the best.

[Anonymous No.6306066]

>>6305730
No, you're depriving them of flavor and raising them to be idiots. they'll live their whole lives thinking "oh, but I'm not hurting the animals!~~" and being super-sensetive fuckers who cover their eyes when a wolf is eating its prey on the discovery channel. Your kids will get on tumblr and rant about speciesism and ableism and will cut off people in arguments by yelling "CHECK YOUR PRIVELEGE" anytime they're losing.

Your child is going to suck, for its entire life, if it doesn't gave a good rebellious streak and decide to start eating meat and toughen up.

Now, Is it ethical to raise your kid to be a Christian or an atheist?

[Anonymous No.6306071]

>>6306057

>Because the vegetarian kids are little fatties just as much as the "carnist" kids are

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20237136

> Epidemiologic studies indicate that vegetarian diets are associated with a lower body mass index (BMI) and a lower prevalence of obesity in adults and children
>compared with nonvegetarians, vegetarian children are leaner, and their BMI difference becomes greater during adolescence.
>Plant-based dietary patterns should be encouraged for optimal health

And here's a baby starving because it had shitty parents who happen to eat meat

http://www.wfla.com/story/27728402/22-day-old-baby-dies-from-malnutrition-lakeland-police-arrest-parents-for-murder

[Anonymous No.6306075]

>>6305730
No more or less ethical than raising your kids atheist.

[Anonymous No.6306092]

>>6306075

I think it is far less ethical than raising your kids atheist. Raising kids Athiest is like giving them a blank slate. They can believe whatever they choose to believe. Raising a child Vegan is the opposite--it is programming them with very specific beliefs instead.

[Anonymous No.6306098]

>>6306092
>Raising kids Athiest is like giving them a blank slate

lolno, raising kids atheist is indoctrinating them into atheism, it doesn't give them a choice or make them a blank slate when you feed them atheist ideals and they're därför more likely to grow up atheist.

[Anonymous No.6306100]

>>6306051
Your arguments just get worse and worse. Of course it's anecdotal evidence, so is your case of some French loons who washed their baby with dirt. But healthy vegan babies isn't as interesting of a story I guess.

Just look at all the sources in the thread. Or just ignore everything and keep hammering away with muh protein, muh b12, muh 8th grade nutrition information.

[Anonymous No.6306103]

>>6306075
I can go out to dinner with my atheist friends without calling ahead to see if the restaurant has any non-theist options on the menu

[Anonymous No.6306108]

>>6305730
I'm vegan and since I am the one earning the money and doing the cooking the child eats what I eat at meal times. If he wants to buy himself meat, eggs or dairy when he gets older then he can but for now it's my choice.
>mfw: /ck/ is childless.

[Anonymous No.6306109]

>>6306100
>Or just ignore everything and keep hammering away with muh protein

And you'll just keep hammering away with a close-minded view that meat is bad no matter what, right? Where does that get us?

[Anonymous No.6306114]

>>6306098
>lolno, raising kids atheist is indoctrinating them into atheism

Perhaps we have different understandings of what that means.

In my opinion, "raising kids atheist" means you don't indoctrinate at them into anything. You don't take them to church, but at the same time you don't fill their head with "church is bad" either.

[Anonymous No.6306117]

>>6306100
Actually, the post you are answering was my first post in this thread. I just found it terribly ironic that you would site a few mommy blogs as evidence, then turn around and demand solid citations and sources from someone else.

What's good for the goose is good gor the gander.

[Anonymous No.6306119]

>>6306108
>it's my choice to raise my child on an unhealthy diet
Yes it is, but don't wonder why people hate you for it. Your world should be revolving around them, not the other way around.

[Anonymous No.6306120]

>>6306109

>close-minded

[Anonymous No.6306126]

>>6306120
ebig maymay, friend. MEAT EATERS BTFO

[Anonymous No.6306127]

>>6306119

Why's a vegan diet unhealthy? "Vegan" isn't descriptive enough to make that judgement, but a well done vegan diet has the potential to be one of the healthiest diets, high in all the foods health organizations tell you to eat while being low in the bad things like saturated fat and cholesterol

[Anonymous No.6306133]

>>6306109
Lel. Where did I say that, bra?

[Anonymous No.6306135]

>>6306127
Because you probably aren't doing a good job of it. Chances are you, and your children, are missing out on essential amino acids.
You probably already fucked up their development, so no point in changing your ways now.

[Anonymous No.6306136]

What about breathatarian babies?

https://i.4cdn.org/tv/1425920567963.webm

[Anonymous No.6306138]

Ethical? I'd probably say no. Possible? If there are non animal fat and protein sources available in the quantity needed and bio available to infants, I don't see why not.

The biggest problem with the vegan parents who killed their baby was the fact the kid was only getting carbs and simple sugars and barely any if any fats or proteins.

[Anonymous No.6306139]

>>6306108

So if you were a nudist you'd send your kids to school naked or if you were some kind of NRA gun nut you'd send them with revolvers. Whatever, shitty choices you've made in your life doesn't give you the right to put that shit on your kids, fggt.

[Anonymous No.6306140]

>>6306127
>eating cholesterol is bad
vegans everybody.

[Anonymous No.6306141]

>>6306127
Don't bother mate, he probably believes a vegan diet revolves around pizza, belgium fries, broccoli and water. At best he is ill informed, at worst he's just fucking stupid.

[Anonymous No.6306142]

>raise kids on mcdonalds, kfc, soda, hot dogs, and lunchables
>"warms my heart to see a red-blooded American family doing their best in today's economic climate"

>raise kids on fresh vegetables, fruits, whole grains, legumes, nuts, and seeds
>"you're a piece of SHIT, you should be ASHAMED, depriving your child of bacon! he's going to grow up WEIRD! I am very emotional about this!"

[Anonymous No.6306143]

>>6305730
Yes as long as they're getting the right calories and nutrients.

Unless homeschooled they bum off their friends all the time.
>kids
>listening to parents

[Anonymous No.6306150]

>>6306142
this.

[Anonymous No.6306152]

>>6306135

>missing out on essential amino acids.

Why even bother entering a discussion on this stuff when you're that out of touch with the topic?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2m4p8s7xskQ

[Anonymous No.6306154]

>>6306142
Don't make shitty assumptions like that.
I think feeding your kids fast food all of the time is just as abusive as raising them vegan.

[Anonymous No.6306158]

Who /hunter/ here?

[Anonymous No.6306161]

>>6306152
>do vegetarians get enough protein
>vegetarians
Vegetarians and vegans are the same thing now?
Vegan logic everybody.

[Anonymous No.6306163]

>>6306161

Video includes vegans, also known as "strict vegetarians"

[Anonymous No.6306164]

>>6306139
Parents make decisions and force things on their children all the time. I hope one day you realize how stupid this argument is

[Anonymous No.6306169]

>>6306163
So let me ask you this. You've sat down, and done all the math, right? You're absolutely positive your child(ren) aren't missing, or deficient in ANY amino acids?

[Anonymous No.6306182]

>>6306164

I think there should be a testing and licensing system for breeding so fucks like you are sterilized.

[Anonymous No.6306183]

>>6306135
>missing out on essential amino acids
>muh protein chain is missing methionine (said by no one ever)

[Anonymous No.6306186]

>>6306182
Thank you, someone had to say it.
People with major mental disorders (like veganism for example) should not be allowed to reproduce.

[Anonymous No.6306195]

>>6306142
>raise kids on game, wild-caught fish, cage-free eggs and grass-fed dairy
>"You disgusting MURDERER, you're destroying the environment and poisoning your children's bodies with pus and cancer!!"

>raise kids on white flour, glucose syrup, margarine and B12 injections
>"Such a compassionate family! Who needs taurine when you love the Earth, right?"

Look, I can make sweeping generalizations about people's diets, too.

[Anonymous No.6306196]

>>6306182
Evidence points to your being the most retarded person in this thread

[Anonymous No.6306201]

>>6306169

I don't have children, but there's no math required. You eat food, you get proteins, made up of amino acids. I get over 100 grams of protein a day since I eat beans, which is still much more than I technically need. Talking about protein or amino acids is just a red flag that you have no idea what you're talking about on the subject. It's the diet equivalent of "if evolution's real, how come there's still CHIMPANZEES?"

[Anonymous No.6306204]

>Not raising your kid to kill and clean his own food.

Fucking homos.

[Anonymous No.6306208]

>>6305730
You forgot your /ck/ trigger warning, OP. Look at all these triggered people.

[Anonymous No.6306209]

>>6306127
>Why's a vegan diet unhealthy?

Because it excludes foods from a diet based on a blanket moral or ethical concern as opposed to nutritional metrics.

The healthiest diet would be that which considers only nutrition and health when determining what foods to eat and how to prepare them. A vegan diet, on the other hand, is defined by the moral concept that animal products are somehow wrong/bad and shouldn't be eaten. It happens to be healthy in many ways, but it's not defined by health, rather it's defined by a moral ideal.

It's silly really: this is like choosing a car based upon what stereo it has and the asking what that has to do with fuel economy.

The optimum diet from a nutrition perspective is not the same thing as the optimum diet from a particular moral viewpoint.

[Anonymous No.6306214]

>>6306201
Live on just soy protein and see how fast you die.

Amino acids are a real issue for vegans, you have to vary your diet a lot if you want to get them all.

[Anonymous No.6306215]

>>6305730
Vegans should be gassed.

[Anonymous No.6306216]

>>6306150
back to reddit with you

[Anonymous No.6306219]

>>6306195
cage free eggs and wild caught fish are bad for the environment, though. grass fed dairy/beef less so, but it's still an inefficient use of water and land.

[Anonymous No.6306222]

>>6306214
>you have to vary your diet a lot if you want to get them all

[Anonymous No.6306224]

>>6306201

>I get over 100 grams of protein a day since I eat beans
>average of 15g of protein per cup of cooked beans
>mfw you're claiming to eat 6+ cups of beans a day

[Anonymous No.6306232]

>>6306183
>I don't care about my children
Yeah, I noticed.

[Anonymous No.6306233]

>>6306214

>you have to vary your diet a lot if you want to get them all.

You know that's complete bullshit, right? Black beans, for example, contain every essential amino acid. So do your evil soybeans.

[Anonymous No.6306237]

>>6306201
>all proteins are the same
Are vegans really this dumb?

[Anonymous No.6306249]

>>6306209

Okay, so you're coming into the argument with the assumption that a diet needs to include meat, dairy, and eggs for optimum health, leaving out the possibility that the opposite might be true. The largest healthcare organization in the US recommends a vegan diet for all of its patients because of how effective it's proven to be in reducing risk of heart disease, diabetes, obesity, high blood pressure, cancer, etc, beating out even the respected mediterranean diet, which itself is considered a mainly vegetarian diet

http://www.thepermanentejournal.org/issues/2013/spring/5117-nutrition.html
http://mydoctor.kaiserpermanente.org/ncal/Images/New%20Plant%20Based%20Booklet%201214_tcm28-781815.pdf

They do make the distinction between a "vegan diet" and a vegan diet based on whole foods though

[Anonymous No.6306260]

>>6306201
>He thinks evolution is real

[Anonymous No.6306264]

>>6306222
I don't know what happened to you as a child that caused you to not believe in science and amino acids, maybe you are just brain damaged from the vegan diet.

But it's been know about forever. It's why people eat rice and beans together. Beans don't have much methionine but they have lots of lysine, and rice is low in lysine and high in methionine.

You can definitely get all you need from a vegan diet, but you have to eat many different sources of protein or you are guaranteed to be deficient in some of them. This can have serious neurological implications because a proper balance is very important for optimal brain health even more than the rest of your body.

[Anonymous No.6306265]

>>6306214
hehe

[Anonymous No.6306266]

>>6306224

Of course other food contibutes to the protein pool, but I eat beans or lentils every day. In this pic, I had 3 cups of lentils, which came from 1 cup of dry lentils

I also don't get the "you have to vary your protein" thing. Even though it's untrue that most plant foods are "missing" amino acids, all food contains proteins/amino acids and nobody eats literally one food each day. If you did, you'd have more to worry about than protein. On this day, I got protein mostly from whole wheat bread, lentils, broccoli, and some nuts and seeds

[Anonymous No.6306270]

>>6306224
Not that guy, but I get between 120-150g of protein a day just eating a whole foods diet as a vegan

[Anonymous No.6306271]

/ck Mindset Easy Reference:
- Avoidance or minimization of consumption of meat or other animal products is a mental illness and deserves nothing less than murder
- Tastiness of meat is inversely proportional to the welfare of that animal while it was alive
- MSG is dangerous
- Putting condiments on steak deserves nothing less than murder
- Cooking steak to any doneness other than rare makes you a subhuman
- Any criticism of the abuse of the "intellectual property" system by companies involved in GM research is unacceptable
- Gin & tonic is a drink for women
- Vegetarianism is veganism, and "pescetarian" is a word made up in 2014 for the specialest of snowflakes
- Wine is pretentious
- All food allergies are just you being a pussy
- Drinking any beer other than the topmost mass produced ones may be an indicator of homosexuality and trend-following
- It's impossible to not like scotch
- Green shit doesn't belong on pizza
- Soya gives ya bitchtits dude
- I can't abide what others put on a hotdog
- Most foods just aren't appropriate for an adult to eat and make you look like an uncultured manchild
- If I haven't heard of it, it's an emerging fad
- No one likes sushi; if you pretend you do, then you're a pretentious tryhard
- Wisconsin makes the best cheese on earth
- America makes the best beer
- Trans fatty acids are harmless
- Saturated fat is bad
- HFCS is deadly/HFCS is harmless in any amount
- Teflon is a carcinogen
- /ck/ is primarily a board for sharing opinions on fast food restaurants
- Xanthan gum? Doesn't that give you cancer?
- I get angry about condiments on burgers

Think who you might trigger before you start a thread.

[Anonymous No.6306276]

>>6305907
you picked a poor example with potatoes... while a healthy balanced diet (plant based or omnivorous) should obviously contain more diversity than 1500 kcal/day of potatoes, potatoes do contain all of the essential amino acids, assuming you're eating the skin. while potatoes are not very protein dense, pointing to them as a poor source of protein quality shows a lack of research on the subject.

pic related

[Anonymous No.6306282]

>>6306142
>you either eat junk/fast food or are a vegan

[Anonymous No.6306289]

>>6306271
America undoubtedly makes the best beer

That's smart person's belief

[Anonymous No.6306292]

>>6305907

I noticed that people who point to how a vegan diet could potentially be deficient in things seem to think that a diet that includes meat won't be deficient in anything and is balanced by default. As an example, 98% of Americans fail to meet the minimum requirement for potassium.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22854410

97% fail to meet the requirement for fiber, found only in plant foods >>6306152

Everybody needs some general awareness of the food they're eating to avoid nutrient deficiencies. If you don't eat many whole grains, you're probably deficient in magnesium. If you don't eat a lot of leafy greens or beans, you're probably deficient in folate. If you don't eat nuts, you're probably deficient in vitamin E. That's what constructing a good diet is like for anyone.

[Anonymous No.6306293]

>>6306249
>Okay, so you're coming into the argument with the assumption that a diet needs to include meat...

No, I'm stating that if your goal was to determine the healthiest diet then the first and only metric should be the optimum source for each and every essential nutrient in the body. The nutritional breakdown of the food should be the deciding factor, not animal cruelty or "mah bacon" or anything else. There are some nutrients for which the best dietary source is plant based. For others it's a fungus. For others it's an animal product. There is no one "type" of food that is the healthiest in all categories, which is why Veganism is sub-optimal from a health perspective. The optimal diet (considering nutrition as the only metric) would be mostly vegetarian, but it would include some animal products.

>> leaving out the possibility that the opposite might be true.

the problem here is that you seem to be thinking in terms of black/white. Vegan vs. Beef-for-3-meals-a-day, etc. There aren't just those two options. There is a massive gray area in the middle.

Also, I'm not sure why I'm supposed to listen to a cardiologist (a heart expert) for matters of nutrition. That sounds like taking advice on fixing my car from a plumber.

[Anonymous No.6306305]

>>6306264
How many times do I have to laugh at you before you'll actually do some research on the subject? Protein combining is absolute bs and even the person who came up with it disavowed the notion decades ago. Just because it's a popular and common idea, doesn't mean that it's true. Look it up if you don't believe me. You don't need to "combine proteins". The very phrase just reeks of a fundamental misunderstanding of what proteins are and how amino acids relate to protein chains. Please, show me a study where nitrogen balance or protein synthesis is negatively effected by a single whole food source of protein. I'd love to see it.

[Anonymous No.6306309]

>>6306289
>muh microbrews

No, friend.

[Anonymous No.6306311]

>>6306266
>no alcohol target
Ayy lmao

[Anonymous No.6306316]

>>6306292
>seem to think that a diet that includes meat won't be deficient in anything and is balanced by defaul

Nobody thinks that.

We do, however, realize that it is more difficult to maintain a properly balanced diet if you refuse to eat a very large proportion of foods.

[Anonymous No.6306319]

You are pretty much guaranteed to have a sickly disease ridden asthmatic brain damaged child if you raise them vegan. Not that raising them on american junkfood is better, it's just as bad.

both are extremely irresponsible

[Anonymous No.6306324]

>>6306309
I like how you think disregarding an entire argument for the sake of it, somehow makes you correct.

It doesn't, you literal subhuman shit.

[Anonymous No.6306333]

>>6306270

Post your diet then because I highly, highly doubt it unless you're doing something like he claims and eating a massive amount of beans every day.

[Anonymous No.6306339]

>>6306293

Alright, so I'm thinking black and white but you've determined that any diet that isn't optimally perfect is "unhealthy."

Well to give me a better understanding of what you consider optimal, what special nutrients are coming from animal sources in this mostly vegetarian diet you've envisioned, and why should they be attained from that specific source, factoring in the full package the nutrients come in (plant foods generally come with extra health-promoting compounds in the form of phytochemicals/antioxidants)

When I think of that kind of diet, I think of the people in Okinawa, Japan, a blue zone known for its centenarians, where their tradition diet was about 3% animal sourced foods, the rest being sweet potatoes, some grains, soy beans, and vegetables. I just don't see what could be so magical about a few grams of meat that would mean the difference between the perfect diet and a terrible diet

[Anonymous No.6306346]

>>6305910
>Meat eaters are statistically as likely to suffer from B12 deficiency as vegans.

This is hilarious. So vegans, who research and carefully monitor their diets, don't manage to avoid that vitamin deficiency any better than the entire rest of the population, most of whom are idiot mooks with horrible diets?

[Anonymous No.6306350]

>>6306324
What argument?

You made the assertion that "America makes the best beer". Is that the entirety of your argument? What a fine le trilby-tipping master debater that makes you, sir! Tesla > Edison!

I'll say that there is no single country that makes the best beers because all sorts of beers are brewed all over the place. Do you even have real ale breweries in the US?

[Anonymous No.6306355]

>>6306346
are you upset? let it go

[Anonymous No.6306356]

>>6305840
>dat false dilemma

[Anonymous No.6306358]

>>6306266
looks like you on that whole foods train, nigger. we're all like toot toot and shit with hibiscus tea and them antioxidants and sweet potatoes with em sporamin

[Anonymous No.6306364]

>>6306333
What's wrong with beans? I eat 4-5 cups of beans a day. Probably healthier than whatever shit you eat

[Anonymous No.6306366]

>>6306364
beans are high in carcinogens fucktard
for ocassional use only, like in chili

[Anonymous No.6306371]

>>6306366
b8/10

[Anonymous No.6306375]

>>6306339

>the rest being sweet potatoes
>look at image
>69% of all dietary calories from sweet potatoes

Not sure if I'd want to eat quite that much sweet potato. Did they turn orange?

[Anonymous No.6306378]

>>6306358

I eat sweet potatoes pretty often, the hibiscus I mostly just drink at night now with some chamomile to relax before bedtime. Shit's pleasant.

[Anonymous No.6306379]

>>6306339
>Alright, so I'm thinking black and white but you've determined that any diet that isn't optimally perfect is "unhealthy."

I said nothing of the sort.
Let's back up and try again.

If we are to be discussing the relative merits of different then we need to choose what metric we are using to evaluate it. In the case of a diet we could be talking about taste, or convenience, or price, or environmental impact, health, animal welfare, and so on.

My claim is that IF we are asking which diet is the healthiest (as opposed to those other factors) then nutritional content is what we need to look at--not any of those other factors.

And that gets complicated. For example:
>>plant foods generally come with extra health-promoting compounds in the form of phytochemicals/antioxidants

That's true. But how do we weigh, for example, the potential benefits of antioxidants in spinach with, say, the extra vitamins and minerals in liver? That's an apples-to-oranges comparison.

But for any given nutrient you can quite easily find an ideal source for it. For example, it was commonly stated that children should drink their milk for the calcium. But broccoli contains a lot more calcium than milk does. In this case, broccoli is a better source for calcium than milk is. But the vegetable source is not always preferable. But for Vitamin B1 we have the opposite. Fish or pork is a better source than any vegetable. Likewise B2 is better derived from animal sources: a piece of cheese has more than five times the concentration compared to spinach, and so on.

[Anonymous No.6306385]

>>6305730
>raising your children to hate themselves if they ever eat meat or use animal products
yeah, great parenting right there

[Anonymous No.6306393]

>>6306378
yeah, i used to drink hibiscus for health reasons, now i just drink second brew green tea at night so there's less caffeine

[Anonymous No.6306395]

>>6306350
You made the original argument it wasn't backed up by nothing and reverted to strawman, disregarding an argument that hadn't been addressed.

You're a fucking moron which is unsurprising considering you're not American.

[Anonymous No.6306397]

Vegan sperm tastes a lot better than that of a person on a "normal" American diet. Kinda strange.

[Anonymous No.6306400]

>>6306397
Too bad vegans will never get to taste it :^)

[Anonymous No.6306401]

>>6306395
*that was backed up by nothing

[Anonymous No.6306411]

>>6306319
why do you hold this belief? the scientific consensus of global nutrition authorities is that well planned vegan diets are healthy for all stages of life, including pregnant women and children. do you have any evidence that a vegan diet causes asthma, or any other kind of disease? if not, on what grounds do you disagree with the experts?

[Anonymous No.6306423]

>>6306397
girls have consistently given me positive feedback on my semen taste since going veg, now that you mention it...

[Anonymous No.6306426]

>>6306379

>Let's back up and try again.

Let's take a look

>it's my choice to reaise my child on an unhealthy diet
>why's a vegan diet unhealthy?
>because it excludes foods. the optimum diet from a nutrition perspective is--

Maybe I'm reading that wrong, but it looks like "vegan diets are unhealthy because I don't personally believe they're the tip top best"

As for your weighing of the sources, that's what I meant by factoring in packages. B-vitamins aren't particularly hard to get through any diet, so I would argue that arguing about what source has more isn't really useful, but then if you want to compare cheese to spinach, the whole package of spinach and cheese is that spinach may prevent cancer and some chronic disease while the cheese can promote, among many things, certain cancers and heart disease.

We're probably not going to have a great discussion here about the difference between adding a few grams of any animal-sourced food into what would already be a balanced strict vegetarian diet, but there is evidence to suggest that the closer we get to 0% animal sourced foods, the greater we can expect our long term health to be, the Cornell China Study being a very famous and controversial example

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9860369

[Anonymous No.6306431]

>>6306426

And now I gotta head out. Hopefully we'll meet up again some time and talk about this stuff

[Anonymous No.6306433]

>>6306411
>why do you hold this belief?
Because it's silly to arbitrarily cut out a massive number of potential foods from dietary consideration, especially when the decision is based on morals rather than nutrition.

>>the scientific consensus of global nutrition authorities is that well planned vegan diets are healthy for all stages of life

Peer-reviewed citation requested.

>>if not, on what grounds do you disagree with the experts?

I don't think they are "experts" at all.

[Anonymous No.6306438]

>>6306411
I'm sure you could raise children to be very healthy on a strictly vegan diet, but the fact of the matter is most people aren't going to consider everything needed to plan out a child's nutrition correctly under the restrictions that presents.

By raising a child vegan you're drastically increasing your chances of accidentally killing them via malnutrition and guaranteeing they'll be intolerant to certain types of food that they may have decided on their own they want to try later in life. It's a selfish and retarded thing to do when you weigh all the outcomes.

[Anonymous No.6306444]

>>6305840

Being vegan must be healthier, especially if they eat vegan cakes all day long.

[Anonymous No.6306445]

>>6306271
>- Green shit doesn't belong on pizza

This guy's never had a chicken n' spinach Alfredo pizza

[Anonymous No.6306451]

>>6305730
Your life stopped being ethical the second you decided to have kids. Why give a shit now

[Anonymous No.6306454]

>>6306064

I'm not a fan of bison

come at me

[Anonymous No.6306459]

>>6306454
s'alright bro.

I'm sad you don't enjoy it, cause I think it's the tits.

[Anonymous No.6306462]

>>6306305
Forget "protein combining", what happens if you're simply not ingesting a particular essential amino acid?

[Anonymous No.6306464]

>>6306454

this..

I bought some super expensive "bison" at my local and it's was very disappointing, I'll be sticking the mince from now on.

[Anonymous No.6306466]

>>6306426
>"vegan diets are unhealthy because I don't personally believe they're the tip top best"

My personal beliefs have nothing to do with this. That's the whole point, really. Get away from morals and "what you think" and look at facts. For example, how many mg of a given nutrient is present per 100g of the food in question. What I (or anyone else) "believes" isn't relevant. Numbers are relevant.

>>As for your weighing of the sources, that's what I meant by factoring in packages.

Right, but how do you propose we do that? It's easy to measure which foods contain more or less of which nutrients. But how do you consider the potential benefits of an antioxidant in your kale? How do you consider the potential harm from the cyanide in that almonds you're eating? All foods have pros and cons. It's not as simple as "plant good animal bad".

>>but there is evidence to suggest that the closer we get to 0% animal sourced foods, the greater we can expect our long term health to be

I am very disinclined to belive that. There are no straight lines in nature. It doesn't make sense that ALL animal foods are bad and that ALL plant foods are good. Such black-and-white differences tend not to exist in the natural world. I certainly agree that the data suggest that a mostly plant-based diet is optimum, but that's very different than a 100% plant derived product.

[Anonymous No.6306469]

>>6305730
implying that any vegans think procreation is ethical
>wah wah wah overpopulation must not procreate because its selfish

[Anonymous No.6306475]

>>6306464

Bison is much leaner than beef, it is very easy to overcook it.

[Anonymous No.6306493]

>>6306454
>>6306464
I think bison is a bit too lean to use on its own in a burger. 50/50 blend with beef is based

[Anonymous No.6306497]

>>6306433
citation is here:
>>6306000
>>6306008

the first link is dead, but http://www.eatright.org/resource/food/nutrition/healthy-eating/feeding-vegetarian-and-vegan-infants-and-toddlers serves a similar purpose. from their editorial policy:
>Expert Review

>The eatright websites strive to present accurate, science-based information that is relevant to its audience. All nutrition information and public education content is reviewed by subject experts including registered dietitian nutritionists.

>Content is updated when pertinent new research emerges that may affect information presented on eatright websites. Additionally, all content is reviewed on an annual basis to make sure it is up to date and accurate. The date on which a piece of content was last reviewed is displayed at the end of an article or page.


I agree that arbitrary dietary decisions based on morals are silly, I was specifically inquiring about your "sickly" assertions. While most vegans eat their plant based diets for ethical reasons, people eat plant based diets for other factors: high familial risk of heart disease, environmental concern, affordability, etc.

[Anonymous No.6306502]

>>6306469
vegan here, I'm adopting some progeny instead of spawning my own. we can raise children without birthing them.

[Anonymous No.6306523]

[Anonymous No.6306531]

>>6306497
>I was specifically inquiring about your "sickly" assertions

I think you might be confusing me with another poster? I did post a few times in this thread but I did not make the sickly comment.

That being said, I don't have a problem with someone feeding their child an appropriately planned vegetarian diet.

The problem is that in my experience most of them are not "appropriately planned". I have several acquaintances that are various flavors of vegan/vegetarian, and only one of them actually keeps tabs on their diet.

[Anonymous No.6306543]

>>6306523

Now do a search for "Jesus". Lots of hits. I guess that means he's real too, right?

[Anonymous No.6306563]

>>6306444
Good point, hadn't considered that.

[Anonymous No.6306576]

>>6306543
T I P
I
P

[Anonymous No.6306603]

>>6306462
i-i don't even know how you'd do that

[Anonymous No.6306607]

>>6306543
Are you implying that Jesus of Nazareth wasn't a real man?

[Anonymous No.6306623]

>>6306607
>Nazareth
What is this some lord of the rings shit?

[Anonymous No.6306634]

>>6306623

[Anonymous No.6306638]

>>6306543
yeah same shit with hitler

[Anonymous No.6306672]

>>6306139
>2015
>not being a nudist vegan gun nut
FUCKING NORMIES RRRRREEEEEEEEEEEE

[Anonymous No.6306710]

>>6306438
But Anon, WHY would I want to support my child if they want to eat VIOLENCE. Meat isn't food, it's VIOLENCE.
I have a baby, and her name is snow ;_;

[Anonymous No.6306965]

>>6306103
but you might have to check if shit's halal or koscher

[Anonymous No.6307087]

>>6305730
Who cares about ethics? It's practically ineffective and that's what matters. Unless your dream is to raise Terry Shaivo you should probably feed them complete proteins.

[Anonymous No.6307181]

>>6307087
complete proteins is officially a meme now

[Anonymous No.6307184]

>>6305730
Yes, if you make sure they are eating an adequate amount of proteins and calories

[Anonymous No.6307741]

>>6307181
i thought terry shaivo was the funny part