[ 3 / biz / cgl / ck / diy / fa / ic / jp / lit / sci / vr / vt ] [ index / top / reports ] [ become a patron ] [ status ]
2023-11: Warosu is now out of extended maintenance.

/ck/ - Food & Cooking

View post   
File: 27 KB, 600x600, 8000.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
5673662 No.5673662[DELETED]  [Reply] [Original]

Is there any point in using those horrible grooved steels if you have a decent knife?

The only people I've ever seen who still use them are ignoramuses, the kind of people who parrot nonsense they heard from a guy who heard from a guy. They don't know the difference between sharpness and microserrations, and they think that removing metal is going to "ruin" your knife. It's impossible to even talk to them about sharpening because they're opinionated yet have no basis for their opinions except "it is known"

For me nothing beats the edge coming off a charged strop, but for lazy touchups I use a ceramic rod which is still better than anything I've ever been able to get from a grooved steel.

Even my butcher who is pretty damm old school uses some kind of oval steel with a very fine hazy pattern (I've never asked him what it is but it's either etched or it's diamonds). The only place I saw a grooved steel in use was my college cafeteria where all the food tasted like chemicals. Usually no one bothered taking care of the knives but there was one fat guy who would scrape his knife against it when things were slow.

>> No.5673665

>>5673662
all a steel does is realign in between stone work. when you use a strop with a compound or a ceramic steel you are actually removing metal which is completely different from realigning

>> No.5673667

I use a stone to sharpen, steel to hone between uses.

Works fine.

>> No.5675187

It's for softer knife steels, like Euro (German in particular) heavy chef knives, whose edges require constant tuning because they fold over with the use they get. Your pic is of a Japanese waterstone, used to sharpen the kind of harder steel knives used by their knives, which are used in a different manner (narrower angle grind for very controlled pull/push cuts, very gentle chopping) than continental chef's knives.

>> No.5675197

>>5673665

Incorrect. There is no "realigning". It doesn't exist. It's fiction. You have been lied to.

A "steel" is abrasive. The grooves in it are like teeth on a file. It can, and does, remove metal from the blade. You can easily find this out for yourself: Get a steel and wash it clean. Use it on a knife. Then wipe the steel with a clean white cloth, napkin, etc. See that gray residue on the cloth? That's steel dust that it removed from the blade.

>> No.5675214

>>5673662
As a butcher I use a steel throughout the day and then a stone at the end to sharpen for the next day

>> No.5675219
File: 1.87 MB, 3264x2448, 1357352514644.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
5675219

These threads are always fun.

>> No.5675227

>>5675219
>siamese
my nigga

>> No.5675270

>>5675197
B-but grandpa always said! Muh ice hardened (sic) X50CrMoV15

>> No.5675381

I just use the back of a mug, is that bad?

>> No.5675594

>>5675197
You are absolutely retarded. Tons of real professionals have to actual research into this.

Cutting creates folds in the metal, the steel realigns them, after doing this enough it breaks off.

>> No.5675678

i only use my steel after sharpening it on my stone to make sure my edge is properly aligned and that there is no barb or wire edge. i do think it's strange that knife sets come with a steel but not a sharpening stone/rod, which is way more important. maybe its just so casual cooks will have something to do to look cool before they carve a roast beef on christmas without ruining a blade by trying to sharpen it and accidentally changing the blade angle with every grind along a ceramic rod.

>> No.5675682

>>5673662
>using a japanese water stone for basic kitchen knives
nigga, unless you're gonna sharpen a katana, go get yourself a basic set of a hard and a soft Arkansas stone

>> No.5675695

>>5675682

>wasting godtier arkansas stone on basic kitchen knives

>> No.5675709

>>5675682
>spending 10x as long because born in the wrong decade
No thanks, I'll take something efficient

>> No.5675712

>>5675594
>>You are absolutely retarded.
No, I'm a materials scientist.

>>Tons of real professionals have to actual research into this.
>>have to actual
>>have to
>>retarded

Knives are made from relatively hard steel. That's the whole point, really--the harder the steel the longer they keep a sharp edge. Knives are not so soft that the edge simply "rolls" or folds, unless you're talking about some piece of shit metal or or something that got overheated on a power grinder and ruined the temper.

Even a so-called "soft" knife steel is much too hard to roll over like this. The edge might chip, or wear away, but it doesn't "roll over". Do you honestly think that knife steel is soft like aluminum foil where it just bends like that?

A knife "steel" is abrasive just like a file. It doesn't "align" anything. It removes small amounts of metal, just like a fine ceramic rod would. If you don't belive me, then ask yourself why there are serrations or even a diamond abrasive coating on a steel? If all that was required was "alignment" then they would be a smooth, hard, rod. But they aren't. They're rough, because like a file or a stone, they remove a small amount of metal from the edge. If you think I'm full of it, just do the experiment that was posted earlier and see for yourself the metal residue left behind from using a steel.

You can also do a google image search for "electronic microscope knife edge" You'll see tons of photos of knife edges of various types and various sharpening methods. But good luck finding one that shows the edge rolled over, because the steel of most knives is far too hard for that to happen.

>> No.5675717

>>5675712
#rekt

>> No.5675724

>>5675712
So, let's start with what steeling is. The knife edge is swiped against a steel rod, also called a steel, also a butcher's steel. The purpose and the effect, when it's done correctly, is that the deformed edge gets realigned back to its straight state. As you can guess, steeling has no effect of the chipped edge, since there is pretty much nothing to push back and align. There is another problem with the very hard edges, such as the knives with the Rockwell hardness above 62-63HRC. Most of the butcher steels are made of the steel which is around 60-63HRC. So, if the knife is harder than the steel used for the steeling, then the harder edge will not be affected much. In those cases the ceramic or borosilicate rods should be used.

http://zknives.com/knives/articles/wssteeling.shtml

>> No.5675725

>>5675712
Casuistry: the post

>> No.5675730

>>5675712
Seems like everone disagrees with you, Would you like more sources?

http://badgerandblade.com/vb/archive/index.php/t-299438.html

http://www.edgeexperts.com/2009/02/23/smith%E2%80%99s-sharpening-rods-stones-review/

http://www.spyderco.com/forums/archive/index.php/t-49041.html

http://www.patronsaintofknives.com/faq--how-to-use-a-steel.html

http://www.britishblades.com/forums/showthread.php?163850-Steeling-a-knife-(using-sharpening-honing-steel-rod)

http://www.razoredgeknives.com/?tag=steeling

>> No.5675737

>>5675724
>is that the deformed edge gets realigned back to its straight state

Sure, sounds nice in theory. but the problem is that this is impossible. Knife steel is too hard to fold. It's also too hard to align by swiping it against a steel. Try to bend a kitchen knife and it snaps rather than bends because the steel is too hard to bend.

>> No.5675743

>>5675737
yeah at that thickness, do you not understand that the blade is thinner at the edge than the rest of the knife?

Its the very, very end of the blade that bends.

>> No.5675745

>>5675712
>Tons of real professionals have to actual research into this.
>have to actual
>have to
>retarded
Are you implying that it's incorrect to say I have to do something? Or are you just nitpicking an obvious typo?

>> No.5675748

>>5675737
You're assuming all knives are made from the same type of steel. They aren't. I have stiff knives, and I have flexible knives. I have German knives and Japanese knives. Also what the fuck is a materials scientist? Sounds made up as fuck. As a professional cook (unlike you, nerd) I'm more inclined to believe what my Chefs, and Chef instructors have told me my whole life. Nobody cuts perfectly. We all have a slight angle when the blade hits the board. Do this 1000 times and the blade is no longer straight, that's what a knife steel is for.

>> No.5675751

>>5675745
>>5675748
Guys he is obviously buttmad at being rekt and grasping at staws. Dont damage his self esteem any more. We dont want to be responsible for another suicide

>> No.5675754

>>5675745
>Or are you just nitpicking an obvious typo?

Well, IMHO if you're going to call someone a retard then you really ought to be correct in your post, anon.

>> No.5675755

>>5675754
But you were incorrect in both the post they were replying to and in the post in which you replied.

>> No.5675766

>>5675748
>You're assuming all knives are made from the same type of steel

Not at all. There's many kind of knife steels. But all of them are sufficiently hard that they cannot roll over. The whole point of a knife is that it's hard enough to keep an edge. And that's mutually exclusive with "rolling over".

>>Also what the fuck is a materials scientist?
Something you can get a degree in. You know, at a university.

>> I'm more inclined to believe what my Chefs, and Chef instructors have told me my whole life

Why? "Experts" parrot all sorts of things that are incorrect. Gordon Ramsay frequently talkes about searing meat to "seal it", and we all know that's incorrect. Some Italian chefs swear that putting a cork in a stewpot with octopus meat tenderizes it, and that's certainly not true either.

I'm not asking you to blindly trust me. I'm asking you to apply your brain a little bit. If all a steel does is "align" the edge, then why does it have steel dust on it after you use it? Why is it rough? Think about it.

>> No.5675771

>>5675766
>Not at all. There's many kind of knife steels. But all of them are sufficiently hard that they cannot roll over. The whole point of a knife is that it's hard enough to keep an edge. And that's mutually exclusive with "rolling over".

you are wrong and you know it which is why you have resulted to selective replying and nitpicking

if they are to hard to roll over on a micro level they why would they even need sharpening?

Do you really not understand that metal gets easier to bend the thinner it gets and that blades are super thin at the end?

How can the super thin tip of the blade not roll over after hundreds of cuts but you can take and bend the full thickness of a filet knife almost a full 90 degrees?

Your opinion doesnt mean shit when its already been proved and widely accepted that you are wrong

>> No.5675776

>>5675766
see >>5675743
>>5675730
>>5675724


Looks like you need to go back to school. ITT Techs Material Scientist degree must not be what it used to be

>> No.5675889

>>5675771
>if they are to hard to roll over on a micro level they why would they even need sharpening?

Rolling and dulling/sharpening are two different things entirely. One is bending the metal. the other is removing metal via abrasion.

>>Do you really not understand that metal gets easier to bend the thinner it gets and that blades are super thin at the end?

That's not quite true. Metal gets easier to deform the thinner it gets. Whether it bends or it breaks depends on how hard the metal is. Try and bend a paper clip and it just bends because it's soft steel. Try and bend a Chef's knife and it snaps because it's hard steel.

>>How can the super thin tip of the blade not roll over after hundreds of cuts

Because most knives are made from hard steel. They don't bend at all, at any thickness. They break. It's like comparing aluminum foil to a piece of window glass. Foil is soft. It bends. Glass is hard. Try to bend it and it shatters.

>>but you can take and bend the full thickness of a filet knife almost a full 90 degrees?

A fillet knife is an exception. It's specifically made of soft steel so that it's flexible. Try and bend your Chef's knife and see what happens.

>>Your opinion doesnt mean shit when its already been proved

Lol. Go study up on the difference between ductile behavior of steels and brittle behavior or steels and how that's correlated to hardness.

>>and widely accepted

Religion is widely accepted too. Doesn't mean it's correct. In this case, using a steel works fine, it's just that the mechanism behind it is not well understood. A steel sharpens by abrasion, not by "aligning" anything. It still works though, just for a different reason than the commonly quoted one.

Now I've answered all your questions. Please answer mine: If a steel isn't abrasive, why is it serrated and why does it leave steel dust behind after it's use?

>> No.5675898

>>5675712
That's fairly convincing, actually. Although I was under the impression that a steel worked by drawing the metal, as with a burnisher on a scraper blade. Are you sure the gray residue isn't rust or 'patina'?

>> No.5675902

>>5675898
its call casuistry,

>> No.5675923

>>5675889
Serrated to reduce surface area, more pressure for greater deformation, supposedly. If it were for abrasion I'd expect it to be cut in a diamond pattern though, like a file. It doesn't make sense that the grooves run down the length of it if it's meant to remove metal.
And I think the dust is from microscopic corrosion, which is likely why the knife became dull in the first place.

>> No.5675930

>>5675923
also from any of the folds that have broken during realignment

Also a lot of honing steels are smooth

>> No.5675936

>>5675898
>Are you sure the gray residue isn't rust or 'patina'?

that's why you clean it first. Scrub the shit out of the steel. Wipe it with a clean cloth and see nothing on the cloth. Then use it on your knife. Wipe it again. See the steel?

>> No.5675940

>>5675930
No, that's wrong. A steel can't remove a burr, I've tried. Raised a burr on the stone, tried to break it off with my steel; didn't work.
The only time I've been able to 'align' an edge was again due to a burr, which then folded over the first time it hit a cutting board.

I've only seen my steel improve an edge that was already 'aligned' and burr-free.

>> No.5675944

>>5675923
>It doesn't make sense that the grooves run down the length of it if it's meant to remove metal.

Sure it does, because of the way you move the blade against the steel. The cutting edge of the knife is drawn across the steel, so having straight lines works well for the motion involved. A round file has a different pattern because you use the file along it's axis, not sliding sideways against the work. A steel is a "file" that's optimized for the motion involved with its use.

>> No.5675946

>>5675940
>but muh anecdotal evidence that goes against proven researched information

>> No.5675948

>>5675946
>proven researched information

What proven researched information exactly? The only argument I'm seeing here is ...but..but..my chef/grandpa/etc told me it aligns the edge and it must be true because so many people believe it.....just like "searing meat seals in the juices"

>> No.5675954

>>5675948
nice fallacy

>> No.5675962

>>5675954

That's why I asked. Because I don't see any "proven researched information" here. Could you kindly point me towards it? Seriously.

>> No.5675963

>>5675936
Well, I did that. Cleaned both knife and steel with Barkeeper's friend, and I didn't get any residue from it. Did you try cleaning the knife as well when you did it?

>>5675946
>you should believe what your authority figures tell you even when it doesn't work

>> No.5675982

>>5675963
>Did you try cleaning the knife as well when you did it?

Yes indeed, though I just washed them with normal dish soap and water, with a scrub brush. I didn't use BKF I did sharpen a few knives though, not just one.

>> No.5675987

>>5675776
>ITT Tech
There is the problem.

>> No.5676007
File: 1.53 MB, 2272x1704, DSC06076.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
5676007

well i just tried this on my fibrox.

ill be damned

>> No.5676012

>>5675982
Well, it's possible. I'll keep it in mind the next time I have a few knives to work on. Scraping the patina off my carbon steel knife produced ample gray residue, for what it's worth.

And you might try using an abrasive cleaner instead, I don't think dish soap is enough to remove corrosion, nor a brush.

>> No.5676019

>>5676007
Isn't that a DMT diamond steel?
The kind bonded with a diamond abrasive?

>> No.5676039

>>5675712
As a materials scientist, you should know that you are fucking wrong. Don't try to set yourself up as an authority if you don't know what the fuck you are talking about. There have been youtube videos of people that have rolled edges when testing knives. Does that mean a steel rod can't remove material? Of course not. Those who say it absolutely can't are wrong, but not as wrong as you are. Steel can and does roll. Look up the malleability and flexibility characteristics of German cutlery steel before looking like an idiot.

>> No.5676065

>>5676039
/thread

>> No.5676075
File: 20 KB, 300x190, citation_needed.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
5676075

>>5676039
Do you have a link? I'd like to see that, actually.
Even when I've used a relatively soft machete, the blade would chip before just the edge could roll over. Even bending the blade in places, the edge would still be sharp.

Also
>authority
that's not how science works

>> No.5676091

>>5676075
On break at work. I might look to see if one particular one is still up that I am thinking of, but I know there are others. Just search youtube for knife testing in the meantime if interested enough.

>> No.5676101

>>5675214
as a butcher do you have any adcice for an amateur who uses on of those cheap chinese wetstone?

can i do with a cheap Chinese wetstone?

>> No.5676155

>>5675682
Katanas are polished not sharpened.

>not using natural toishi for your nihonto

Watashi hontoni anata ga kore etc...

>> No.5676173

>>5676075
If an edge is bent over, the cutting edge will not be aligned with the cutting stroke, so it won't be sharp in it intended use. Hence a part of why people talk about realigning the edge.
also...
authority:
"5. an accepted source of information, advice, etc."
"4. a: grounds, warrant <had excellent authority for believing the claim>
b: convincing force <lent authority to the performance>"
"6. an expert or an authoritative work in a field: he is an authority on Ming China"

Seriously, you have a shit attitude and argue about things of which you know fuck all. I tire of p[resenting elementary shit to someone claiming to know anything. You are not worthy continuing conversation with beyond this point.

>> No.5676208

>>5676173
I'm not OP
The 'edge' was not what was bent over, the bevel and the flat behind it was bent over, with the edge still aligned with that. That kind of realigning takes an hour with a file, a steel won't do shit.

And yes, those definitions are all applicable as examples of not how science works. Those are examples of how idiots worship scientists.

>> No.5676286

>>5676075
he just told you where to find it and again you ignore and bypass lots of shit so you can argue again.

Everything we are talking about has to be seen under magnification. We ARENT talking about a visible roll in the mother fucker

>> No.5676298

>>5676101
Check out Congress Tools, excellent stone for cheap. I also recommend these videos for sharpening. Good tips on single, double, and microbevels, i think there is a youtube channel too

http://www.japaneseknifeimports.com/media-and-news-center/

>> No.5676333

>>5676286
I'm not OP, you idiots.

And I haven't found any of the mentioned videos yet.
I, not OP, have never seen a rolled edge that could be both realigned and usable. I've only seen a burr roll over. If that can happen, then I want to know about it.

>> No.5676341

>>5676333
we all know you arent ok but you are the faggot who started this argument earlier. You refuse to listen to reason so we all have stopped arguing with you

>> No.5676355

>>5676341(You) (You)
>we all
>implying

>> No.5676357

>>5676341
Oh right, my mistake. I mean not the scientist.

>> No.5676363

>>5676357
I think you are.

>> No.5676373

>>5676363
I'm the guy who thinks steels burnish, not abrade. The realignment hypothesis disagrees with all my personal experience, so I think that's bullshit.

And I don't know what benefit it would serve to suddenly claim to be someone else.

>> No.5676397

>>5675381
Ceramic is ceramic.

>> No.5676428
File: 32 KB, 170x170, wololo.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
5676428

>http://www-archive.mse.iastate.edu/fileadmin/www.mse.iastate.edu/static/files/verhoeven/KnifeShExps.pdf

>> No.5676454

>>5676373
>I'm the guy who thinks steels burnish, not abrade

Those aren't mutually exclusive.

>> No.5676499

>>5676454
Correct. I also don't think steels abrade.

>> No.5676528

>>5676428

Neat article. I wonder why they think that Solingen is a company rather than a city though. One would think that people in the know about knives would recognize that instantly.

>> No.5676541

>>5676499

then how do you explain the dust on the steel that someone posted above?

and how do you explain the clearly visible scratches on the "steeled edge" on figs 15 and 16 vs the controls in >>5676428

>> No.5676550

>>5676528

How certain are you that there isn't a company called "Solingen Messerwerke" or something like that?

It happened with Laguiole knives, another place that pumps out oceans of shitty stainless knives based on an obsolete reputation.

>> No.5676568

>>5676550

Yeah, that could be possible, but I don't think it's very likely. I don't know much about kitchen knives but I collect folding knives. I know of a great many famous German makers from Solingen but I don't know of a single one that is or was named that. I'm betting that their razor said "Solingen" on the blade and they assumed that was a company name rather than the city of origin. Solingen was hugely famous for blades in the past; sort of like Sheffield in England.

>> No.5676641

>>5676541
This guy:
>>5676007
Is using a steel that's been coated with a diamond abrasive.
http://www.dmtsharp.com/sharpeners/sharpening-steels/diamond-steel/
I was referring to the ones that are actually steel, and just steel. And steel 'steels' can still scratch off corrosion, which would also like steel dust.

The scratches, I can't tell if they're made by abrasion and not deformation.

>> No.5676681

>>5676208
>how idiots worship scientists
that may be the case sometimes, but still has nothing to do with how the word was used. The person who claimed to be a materials scientist was obviously attempting to use it to allude to expertise before going off (incorrectly) about all sorts of characteristics of a particular steel with no citation, and demanding citation from others thereafter, as though his own professions need no citation. Enough about that now ffs.
The bevel is a part of the edge characteristic, the way I look at it. It is the angle at which the edge is formed in most cases. There double bevels and convex and concave bevels which can complicate how the angle is defined and whatnot, but that is another matter altogether.
How can you define an edge any other way in this context?
>in b4 bismuth

>> No.5676689

>>5676681

The context of his "allusion to expertise" was being told that "professionals know about this". Implying that cooks know more about metallurgy than he does.

I think it's more than reasonable to drop credentials in such a case. It's not the same as just saying "I'm a scientist look at me" without provocation.

>> No.5676736

>>5676681

so the question is, why don't you post some results to contradict? you have a steel and a knife right? go try it, post pics or if you don't have a steel wtf are you even arguing

>> No.5676741

>>5676681
Let me clarify, the 'primary' bevel had been deformed, the 'secondary' bevel was only deformed where the primary bevel had stretched it.
And in other cases when just the secondary bevel has been deformed, the metal would not hold its shape if realigned. And in the case of kitchen knives, a realigned edge (now a burr) will fold over the first time it comes in contact with a cutting board. This is something I've experienced first hand. I've cut hair and paper with a burr, but thus far it has always failed on food.

If you wanted his citations you should have asked, like he did.

>> No.5676767

>>5676741
wait, so who are you, now? Not the dude who is claiming to be materials guy, but someone with a specific instance of rolling or what? Do you put double bevels on all of your knives? Most knives are not sharpened that way. Ever seen an old serrated blade that now looks more like a wood saw? Extreme example there. And, again, there are degrees to the folding over, which is why regular use of a steel helps to prevent exaggerated cases of it. And it is possible to bring them back, as I have done so for others. It takes a gradual easing of it back, and, yes, it is likely weakened after the fact, but it can be done. Just search any knife forum for rolled edge and see how many people talk about using a steel to roll back.

>> No.5676769
File: 2.81 MB, 3264x2448, knife 002.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
5676769

i didnt read, but if you want your shit razor sharp get a kasumi combination wetstone and an F.dick hygienic steel

>> No.5676782

>>5676767

the problem is that this stuff needs a microscope to see. we dont know if someone really has a rolled edge or just has a dull knife. also when they fix it, how do we know if it got sharp from realigning or if it got sharp becaus the steel abraded the bur? without really good pics its all anecdotes

>> No.5676800

>>5676782
no, it does not take a microscope to see it
you're still hung up on your definition of what an edge is
to have a primary and secondary bevel, you need a double bevel, which is not how most knives are
a rolled edge is something that can be felt and seen with the naked eye when light hits it correctly. It typically happens when people put too fine of an angle on their softer steeled blades and don't treat it like a baby afterward, but it can happen to typical edges on softer steel without proper maintenance as well.

>> No.5676841

>>5676800

I understand that YOU know this stuff. But your prespective doesn't matter here. When we are reading anecdotes online or videos on youtube where we cannot see the details, we have to assume the writer is the average joe, not a knife expert or person with attention to detail unless we know otherwise. And I don't see the average joe knowing the difference between a rolled edge and a dull knife. You have expertise these people may not. Without something like a long explanation or good photographs I'm going to assume the more likely scenario that he just has a dull knife and abrades it until it gets sharper.

>>5676782
>without really good pics its all anecdotes

Agreed. And that applies to both sides of the argument.

>> No.5676881
File: 93 KB, 1125x755, disambig4u.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
5676881

>>5676800
I think I see the confusion. A lot of Japanese blades have a single bevel (chisel edge in the picture), meaning one side is flat, and the other side is angled. A double bevel to those of that school of thought simply means the knid of edge most western knives have (V edge in picture). Those who are used to the western school of thought tend to think of a double bevel as 2 different sets of angles.

>> No.5676902

>>5676767
I'm >>5675898
And I was talking about a specific instance with a damaged machete. And I think I was confused as to what >>5676039 meant.
Most western knives do have double bevels, the primary bevel being the part which tapers down from the flat (assuming the knife has a flat), and the secondary bevel forming the edge. You're thinking of a 'micro' bevel.

The scientist was the guy who thought the steel used in knives can't roll, I think that the rolled steel can't be pushed back into place and retain enough strength to be useful.
But if you mean 'dull' rather than being able to feel the edge cant to one side, then I don't think that's actually rolled at all. I don't know why anyone would think that, unless that's just what they were told. I have an old serrated knife, and it's just rounded over, no rolling involved.

Though at this point I'm not entirely sure who meant what.

>> No.5677582
File: 609 KB, 1672x1255, western.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
5677582

>>5676902
What knives do you have or have seen that come with a double bevel? I think the "flat" that you mention is what most refer to as the grind, which, on most western blades, goes right down from spine to bevel. I can't think of any off the top of my head which do not, unless put there after market. Perhaps the diagram pictures in >>5676881 are somewhat misleading. Those are what people refer to as double bevels, which I guess you could call a micro bevel, but the only time I've heard of someone refer to something as a micro bevel is when they were talking about putting a flat bevel on top of a convex edge, which results in an *almost* convex edge, with an ever so slight v-shaped edge, hence micro bevel.

>> No.5677687

>>5677582
I think this may be a mix up between knife jargon and machining jargon.
By that picture, I mean double bevelled *blade* and not double bevelled *edge*. If you have a piece of rectangular bar stock, then you have a flat. Chamfer the stock, and you now have a primary bevel. Do that again, overlapping the first. That's a secondary bevel. The knives in your picture have a wedge profile, right? If not those, then take the Victorinox Fibrox chef knife as an example. That's a full flat grind, the primary bevel runs all the way back to the spine, so there is no flat, but there is a secondary bevel. By contrast, a Pure Komachi knife is flat and parallel leading up to the edge grind. Since there was only one deviation from the flat sheet it was stamped out of, it has flat and only a primary bevel. My Old Hickory slicer has a flat followed by two bevels, a saber grind. And most of my knives have either a full flat or saber grind, both double beveled.

Do you understand now? And 'micro bevel' is knife jargon, it means what it sounds like. By the picture, a 'double beveled edge'.

>> No.5677951
File: 22 KB, 600x600, 50264_adjustable_manual_sharpener_medium_[1].jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
5677951

I have some basic kitchen knives.
I bought Smith's 50264 pull through sharpener to sharpen them for around 20$. It doesn't really sharpen them that well though. If I can, I want to get a cheap stone to sharpen them up a bit more. I don't want to spend 100 dollars on sharpening stones right now. Maybe around 20-30$ I am willing to spend right now. If it's not worthwhile I'll stick with the smith pull through for awhile. Could you guys give me some suggestions?

>> No.5677960

>>5677951
I recently bought an Smith's sharpening stone kit with three stones from the local big box hardware store for $30. The stones are a little small, but I got a 8" chef's knife back to as good as new.

>> No.5678000

They are pretty much useless on VG-10 and harder steels.
They do have their use for the common ~56HRC commercial knives.

>>5675197
So get a polished steel like this. Most kitchens don't use smooth steels because they put as little effort as possible into maintenance.
http://www.amazon.com/Victorinox-Honing-10-Inch-Smooth-Plastic/dp/B000MF469E/