The Other NRA

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The Other NRA Anonymous Thu Jan 2 17:53:58 2014 No.5067689 [Reply] [Original]

>If you ask most Americans about the NRA, they will think of the National Rifle Association. But another powerful industry trade group bearing those initials, the National Restaurant Association, conducts its own campaign of duplicitous lobbying and outright deception at the expense of the public interest.

>Restaurants employ more than 13 million workers, so it is no surprise that industry lobbyists are paid a lot of money to ensure this workforce remains disempowered. The NRA, which has a staff of 750 people, spent more than $4 million in 2012 alone currying favor in Washington, D.C. But with recent fast-food strikes and restaurant workers increasingly speaking out against low wages and other forms of labor exploitation, the mask of the other NRA is slowly peeling away.

>You have to hand it to an industry that has figured out how to keep the federal minimum wage at $7.25 an hour, where it has been stuck since Congress approved the last increase in 2007. Before that, the minimum wage languished at $5.15 for a decade. (Congress has raised the rate just three times in 30 years.) For someone working full time, the current minimum equals $15,000 a year — about the poverty level for a family of two. According to federal labor statistics, fast-food preparers make $9 an hour on average. By way of example, in Los Angeles, a living wage for an adult with one dependent is about $23 an hour.

http://america.aljazeera.com/opinions/2014/1/how-the-restaurantlobbyblocksalivingwageforfastfoodworkers.html

>>	Anonymous Thu Jan 2 18:03:57 2014 No.5067709 I like that al jazeera posts this stuff because other newssites won't risk upsetting people with it.

Anonymous Thu Jan 2 18:03:57 2014 No.5067712

Learn a skill/trade or get an education in something relevant (no gender studies trash) and contribute back. You will be rewarded for your efforts and won't have to whine about getting paid shit to do a job that will be automated by the middle of the next decade

>>	Anonymous Thu Jan 2 18:04:57 2014 No.5067715 >>5067712 good call, we'll just ignore this problem until it goes away oh wait, we already tried that for the last few decades and it didn't work shocker.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jan 2 18:07:57 2014 No.5067721 many jobs like this will be replaced by automation and efficiency increases in the next couple decades anyways. i heard as much as 40% of todays jobs will disappear in the next 20 years.

Anonymous Thu Jan 2 18:09:57 2014 No.5067724
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>>5067715
you mean laziness? It still flourishes which is why they don't want to put it in any more effort at self improvement for more money when they can just sit down and whine till they get their way. Fuck'em

>>	Anonymous Thu Jan 2 18:12:58 2014 No.5067731 >>5067712 White collar jobs are next to be automated, btw.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jan 2 18:13:58 2014 No.5067736 File: 105 KB, 504x566, image.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >$4 million >yes goyim, pay attention to those shekels instead of AIPAC...nothing to see there anyway, ehehehehehe

>>	Anonymous Thu Jan 2 18:17:57 2014 No.5067740 >>5067721 >>5067712 this is what republicans actually believe

>>	Anonymous Thu Jan 2 18:19:57 2014 No.5067743 >$4 million You realize that's fucking nothing for a lobbying group. >burger flipper/pizza boy >making living wage Are you retarded?

>>	Anonymous Thu Jan 2 18:22:57 2014 No.5067751 >>5067740 There's actually a shortage of welders right now, and the pay STARTS at $12-14 an hour in a union shop with benefits. Not so much for liberal arts.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jan 2 18:23:57 2014 No.5067754 >>5067743 I made a living wage as a pizza boy. Because I was good at it. The only reason other people in food services get paid shit is because rich people make more money that way.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jan 2 18:23:57 2014 No.5067755 >>5067740 It is funny to think they do when we went away from automats rather than holding on to them for dear life.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jan 2 18:24:57 2014 No.5067760 >>5067755 yeah I meant to quote >>5067724 nevermind

Anonymous Thu Jan 2 18:25:57 2014 No.5067764

>>5067689
NOBODY
GIVES
A
SHIT

If we gave everyone $15 an hour nobody would go to a fucking colledge. don't like your pay? get a better fucking job, can't get a better job? GET FUCKING TRAINING.

I swear, the people that ask for higher minimum wages are the same ones that believe economy can be fixed by printing more money.

>in b4 you don't understand.

I make 8.30 an hour at the moment, and it took me four years to get to that from 7.25, but my wages increase with experience, the longer I work for this company, the higher and more frequent increases become. stop working for fucking mcdonalds.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jan 2 18:28:57 2014 No.5067773 >>5067764 >clearly didn't read the article >supports argument with anecdotal evidence Just about what I expected.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jan 2 18:29:57 2014 No.5067775 >>5067755 if the living wage whining continues or gains momentum I thoroughly expect automats and Japan style ticket machine restaurants to increase. Which is cool with me, keep costs down while on the road for work.

Anonymous Thu Jan 2 18:29:57 2014 No.5067776

>>5067764
>If we gave everyone $15 an hour nobody would go to a fucking colledge

No shit, they don't actually think they're going to get $15 an hour. You ask for more than you want and you are more likely to get concessions. Realistically they are probably hoping for $9 an hour or so, which is totally doable and reasonable.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jan 2 18:30:57 2014 No.5067781 >>5067740 actually i'm more liberal that conservative. it's just a sad fact of life that we will all be replaced by robots by the 1%

>>	Anonymous Thu Jan 2 18:32:57 2014 No.5067793 I've been to their industry convention a few times. Free food and booze everywhere.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jan 2 18:32:57 2014 No.5067796 >>5067764 >If we gave everyone $15 an hour people would pay their bills on time and live like the normals

>>	Anonymous Thu Jan 2 18:32:57 2014 No.5067798 >>5067776 you can make 15 an hour if you learn a trade or work in the oil industry or something dangerous like that. i know people who have college degrees who dont' even make 15 an hour

>>	Anonymous Thu Jan 2 18:33:57 2014 No.5067799 File: 40 KB, 435x435, dwight disappointed.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>5067743 Yeah, why would we ever pay people a living wage for full-time work? Fucking stupid, right?

>>	Anonymous Thu Jan 2 18:35:57 2014 No.5067806 >>5067754 >because rich people make more money that way How's 4th grade economics working for you? Protip: Use big boy words to try and prove a point. Labor is the number one operating cost in the service industry.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jan 2 18:36:57 2014 No.5067809 >>5067776 >which is totally doable and reasonable. Cool, will you hire me at $9/hour to serve your food?

>>	Anonymous Thu Jan 2 18:36:57 2014 No.5067810 File: 19 KB, 385x383, babby.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>5067799 >living wage

>>	Anonymous Thu Jan 2 18:36:57 2014 No.5067811 >>5067799 The work isn't worth that much you dumb fuck.

Anonymous Thu Jan 2 18:36:57 2014 No.5067812

>>5067781
Little Caesar's is already testing a machine that goes from sheet-out to cooked pizza with the first person touching it at the landing for cutting. McDonalds has been doing similar testing for fry wells and powerhead grills. Total automation will be much sooner at some locations than many people expect.

>family members work for a firm involved in the software for the machines

>>	Anonymous Thu Jan 2 18:36:58 2014 No.5067808 >>5067798 When I was growing up I was assured that this wouldn't happen if I went to collage so this can't be true. It's not a systemic failure of the economy, guys, it's you.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jan 2 18:37:57 2014 No.5067815 >>5067806 And the service industry is highly profitable when run competently. What's your point?

>>	Anonymous Thu Jan 2 18:38:57 2014 No.5067824 >>5067809 No, I don't own a restaurant, or I'd definitely try. Read the article, CostCo is doing pretty well paying their employees relatively high wages.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jan 2 18:39:57 2014 No.5067826 >>5067808 >so this can't be true. ignorance must be bliss. >>5067812 revenge of the nerds

>>	Anonymous Thu Jan 2 18:39:58 2014 No.5067827 >>5067806 Did you ignore the part where the restaurants are posting record profits and the gap between the CEO and entry-level positions has nearly doubled?

>>	Anonymous Thu Jan 2 18:40:57 2014 No.5067829 >>5067815 Your and idiot. Not even wasting my finger strength.

Anonymous Thu Jan 2 18:40:57 2014 No.5067832

>>5067775
Olive Garden tried to cut hours to avoid Obamacare and customers were about to boycott it. OG folded. Americans in general don't want to infringe on a person's ability to earn a fair wage. Only libertarians and nutjob conservatives would avoid restaurants so people don't get a proper wage.

Anonymous Thu Jan 2 18:41:57 2014 No.5067836

>>5067824
>No, I don't own a restaurant

So what makes you think you're qualified to make the claim that "$9 is totally doable"? Do you have a business plan to share?

>>Read the article
I did. What makes you think what's applicable to retail is applicable to food service?

There's a whole lot of virgins discussing sex in this thread.....

>>	Anonymous Thu Jan 2 18:41:57 2014 No.5067837 >>5067829 most embarrassing way to admit defeat right here. good thing you're anon, huh?

>>	Anonymous Thu Jan 2 18:41:57 2014 No.5067838 >>5067827 >all restaurants are major corporations >flipping a burger is worth $15 an hour

Anonymous Thu Jan 2 18:42:58 2014 No.5067841

>>5067776
>You ask for more than you want and you are more likely to get concessions.
sure but
>You ask for $15 minimum wage and everyone sees you as a retard.
is also true, not every battle can be won with every strategy.
>>5067773
>Just about what I expected.
>try to be a clever little prick and fail miserably
Just about what i expected.
>>5067796
>Thinks people deserve $15 for flipping burgers.
Fuck them, they're only where they want to be.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jan 2 18:43:58 2014 No.5067844 File: 40 KB, 365x494, 1194951723715.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>5067829

Anonymous Thu Jan 2 18:43:58 2014 No.5067846

>>5067836

Well there was also the part about how a relatively insignificant increase in food prices would be able to produce a significant increase in wages.

Also there's the executive wage thing.

But I don't have a degree in economics, clearly I shouldn't be discussing this. I'm also not a professional chef, I have no idea what I'm doing on this board. Where did you get your economics degree, what restaurant do you own, and where did you go to culinary school?

>>	Anonymous Thu Jan 2 18:48:57 2014 No.5067859 >>5067846 i went to one of the big 4 culinary schools economics degree from Yale i own two kfc's i am good people love chicken how many kfc's do you own?

>>	Anonymous Thu Jan 2 18:53:57 2014 No.5067867 File: 102 KB, 1280x720, maxresdefault.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>5067859 >i own two kfc's i am good people love chicken how many kfc's do you own?

>>	Anonymous Thu Jan 2 18:56:58 2014 No.5067880 >>5067859 >went to culinary school >went to Yale >owns two KFC's >acts as if he didn't fail

Anonymous Thu Jan 2 19:00:57 2014 No.5067886

>>5067846
>Where did you get your economics degree, what restaurant do you own, and where did you go to culinary school?

I don't have any of those things, though I do own my own engineering business. Which is why I'm not making any silly statements about what is or is not "doable" in the restaurant industry because I clearly don't know. The difference between you and I is that you don't realize you have no idea what you're talking about. I realize this is beyond my experience which is why I'm not making any claims here.

.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jan 2 19:01:57 2014 No.5067893 People who support raising minimum wage are the worst. Its one of the most short sighted thing you could possibly support

>>	Anonymous Thu Jan 2 19:02:57 2014 No.5067896 >>5067893 cool support bro

>>	Anonymous Thu Jan 2 19:03:57 2014 No.5067898 >>5067886 Only a small business would have difficulty but that doesn't mean we should allow them to continue profiting on slave labor.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jan 2 19:06:57 2014 No.5067903 >>5067886 So then your contention is that I might not be correct? Why did you even respond?

>>	Anonymous Thu Jan 2 19:09:30 2014 No.5067911 >>5067898 Slave labor? If the workers are unhappy with their conditions they are free to quit and work elsewhere.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jan 2 19:14:30 2014 No.5067919 >>5067911 Those people have only similar jobs that will hire them so we improve things through the law, increase welfare, they form unions to correct the situation themselves, or we get ready for violent resistance.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jan 2 19:15:30 2014 No.5067920 >>5067911 that is honestly the stupidest thing I have ever heard, and unfortunately way too many people believe that. they can't just go "work elsewhere" they have to go work somewhere that is HIRIING. which is not the most common thing.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jan 2 19:16:30 2014 No.5067924 >>>/pol/

>>	Anonymous Thu Jan 2 19:18:30 2014 No.5067928 >>5067715 Its only a problem if you're part of the uneducated trash that work fast food jobs long term. Real members of society have no reason to care.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jan 2 19:19:30 2014 No.5067931 >>5067920 People are hiring all the time, you aren't entitled to find yo dream job instantly, but someone is always hiring

Anonymous Thu Jan 2 19:21:31 2014 No.5067936

I really don't understand why anyone thinks raising minimum wage would be good for any group of people. It hurts just about everyone, and especially hurts those at the bottom least able to absorb the increased prices and decreased employment it is bound to create. Liberals should really think these things through

>>	Anonymous Thu Jan 2 19:27:30 2014 No.5067946 >>5067936 TAX THE RICH 92% OF ALL THEIR INCOME

>>	Anonymous Thu Jan 2 19:27:30 2014 No.5067947 >>5067836 it's obviously fucking doable if every single restaurant in Washington is doing it.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jan 2 19:31:30 2014 No.5067954 File: 10 KB, 251x201, images.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>5067946 >TAX THE RICH If we try that, the rich will kill us all with drones :(

Anonymous Thu Jan 2 20:41:07 2014 No.5068111
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>>5067911
Here's what happens in a shit economy with few jobs and high unemployment:
1. Get fed up and quit job
2. Look for new job
3. No one will hire you because you quit a job before you had a new one lined up
4. You homeless now

>>	Anonymous Thu Jan 2 20:43:06 2014 No.5068118 >>5067936 It would be a marginal increase in costs and no one would notice. Meanwhile, more people would have more disposable income and stimulate the economy by buying things.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jan 2 20:45:05 2014 No.5068123 File: 418 KB, 1600x1182, yyl.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>5067954 CHECK FUCKING MATE SOCIALIST SCUM

>>	Anonymous Thu Jan 2 20:47:05 2014 No.5068128 >>5067936 >Liberals should really think these things through You are overestimating the ability of liberals to think at all.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jan 2 20:55:51 2014 No.5068148 >>5067811 >huge corporate profit margins >essential cogs for actually cooking and distributing profit are worthless You know, you should go into business.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jan 2 20:56:51 2014 No.5068153 >>5067859 ... then what the fuck are you doing here?!

Anonymous Thu Jan 2 21:00:51 2014 No.5068160

>>5068118
>It would be a marginal increase in costs and no one would notice. Meanwhile, more people would have more disposable income and stimulate the economy by buying things

Bullshit. Fast food companies will protect their margins by laying off workers and making the remaining slobs take up the slack. There won't be "more people with disposable income;" there'll be more unemployed people with no skills beyond flipping burgers wondering why they aren't being rewarded for their mediocrity.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jan 2 21:04:51 2014 No.5068166 >>5068160 When profits get hit by the layoffs due to poor productivity for the businesses foolish enough to do that, they'll hire them back.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jan 2 21:21:52 2014 No.5068209 i'm seriously fucking sick of people arguing about money and minimum wage and 'get training or go to school' or whatever why the FUCK would anyone think that more people getting more money is a bad thing?

>>	Anonymous Thu Jan 2 22:19:51 2014 No.5068351 >>5068209 >why the FUCK would anyone think that more people getting an education and improving themselves is a bad thing?

Anonymous Thu Jan 2 22:41:28 2014 No.5068401

>>5068111
What makes you think people have to quit a job before looking for a new one? I've had 5 jobs in the past year and a half, because I was motivated. That's the difference! I wanted a better job, so I looked while I worked at this shit hole, so I got a job at a less shitty place while I looked for another, then another.

Be smart and have motivation, is that too hard?

>>	Anonymous Thu Jan 2 22:54:28 2014 No.5068437 >>5068209 because every 4chan poster is the hardest worker in the world but is just held back by injustice and bad luck whereas everyone around them is lazy and undeserving of even the most pitiful of wages

>>	Anonymous Thu Jan 2 22:58:28 2014 No.5068450 >>5067798 >$15 >reasonable wage for dangerous work jesus dude why do you hate humans so much

>>	Anonymous Thu Jan 2 22:59:28 2014 No.5068458 >>5068450 Republicans hate anybody who even looks in the direction of their money piles.

>>	DrafterAnon !!6wopz6rNLsf Thu Jan 2 23:00:28 2014 No.5068460 >>5068450 He's talking out of his ass. Working in oil refining is upwards of twice that.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jan 2 23:00:28 2014 No.5068461 >paying people more than the job is worth God you people are fucking retarded.

Anonymous Thu Jan 2 23:01:28 2014 No.5068468

>>5067764
>I make 8.30 an hour at the moment, and it took me four years to get to that from 7.25

no wonder you're so buttfrustrated

but why don't you take it out on the people who are exploiting you, and not some old brown lady working a burger counter?

Anonymous Thu Jan 2 23:07:44 2014 No.5068487

>>5067836
>So what makes you think you're qualified to make the claim that "$9 is totally doable"? Do you have a business plan to share?

not the original person you were moronically yammering at, but

my gf works two food service jobs, one pays $9.50/hr plus tips, the other pays $10.25/hr plus tips

both restaurants are doing very very well

>>	Anonymous Thu Jan 2 23:09:44 2014 No.5068497 >no education entry level job >livable wage Pick one.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jan 2 23:14:46 2014 No.5068517 >>5068497 So millions of people should just move to higher paying jobs and leave everyone without food service?

>>	Anonymous Thu Jan 2 23:18:51 2014 No.5068526 >>5068517 No, people entering the work force or down on hard times should take those jobs. You were never supposed to subside on flipping burgers or taxiing food trays back and fourth.

Anonymous Thu Jan 2 23:20:45 2014 No.5068536

>>5068497

why?

why not have all wages be livable wages?

I get that if someone is not being impressively useful, we might not want to allocate them impressive luxuries. but do they have to fucking starve?

why not

>entry level and/or dumb people jobs which pay livable wages but you can't afford cool shit
>above-entry level and/or smart people jobs which pay enough that you can buy cool shit

>>	Anonymous Thu Jan 2 23:23:45 2014 No.5068548 >>5068536 Because you are paid based on the job you perform, not your worth as a human being. Employers aren't supposed to be a benevolent family figure to take care of you just because you serve. If you want that, join the army.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jan 2 23:23:46 2014 No.5068546 >>5068526 >>people down on hard times should take jobs that they can't live at all off of. this is what you're saying

>>	Anonymous Thu Jan 2 23:24:45 2014 No.5068551 >>5068546 Yes, no shit. It wouldn't be hard times if you could get back on your feet. Hence taking a job that is lower than you.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jan 2 23:25:45 2014 No.5068552 ...and this is why America has a social mobility rate that rivals China and S. American countries.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jan 2 23:26:45 2014 No.5068554 >>5068548 The army has tens of millions of job openings? Wow, I guess there was never a problem at all!

>>	Anonymous Thu Jan 2 23:28:45 2014 No.5068562 >>5068554 Let me put it this way: If you can't make it in the armed forces (barring medical etc exception), then spending the rest of your life in the service industry at minimum wage is right for you!

>>	Anonymous Thu Jan 2 23:30:45 2014 No.5068569 >>5068562 That's fine, we can still get a good ten or twenty million people through basic. Unlimited jobs in the army, everyone! The poor of America are saved!

>>	Anonymous Thu Jan 2 23:33:45 2014 No.5068575 >>5068569 lol I can't believe anon thinks that is a good thing to base an economy and society on

>>	Anonymous Thu Jan 2 23:33:45 2014 No.5068576 >>5068569 >implying that was anywhere near the point >implying that people should be rewarded for doing nothing and ensuring an entitlement mentality Now I remember why I don't try to argue with dumbfuck 'equalists'

>>	Anonymous Thu Jan 2 23:34:50 2014 No.5068579 File: 96 KB, 500x375, 1387991471901.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >this thread still hasn't been deleted

Anonymous Thu Jan 2 23:36:47 2014 No.5068582

>>5068576
I live in Norway. My country is better than yours by virtually all meaningful metrics, primarily because of our high social mobility and equality.

But hey, maybe you'll beat all odds and win the American Dream and be a billionaire. In anticipation of this, you should fight for the rights of the upper echelon so your seat will be warm and comfy when you get there.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jan 2 23:38:46 2014 No.5068592 >>5068582 Norway: 1 Murrica: 0

>>	Anonymous Thu Jan 2 23:39:46 2014 No.5068593 >>5068582 America has a better climate and plentiful camping.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jan 2 23:39:46 2014 No.5068595 >>5068582 >stopped reading after half of your first sentence Congrats!

Anonymous Thu Jan 2 23:40:46 2014 No.5068598

>>5067827
r u dumb?

70% of local businesses will be done for if the wage rises

all its going to do is make them hire less workers.

all the corporations will higher fewer people, but will be less affected

less people working means more homeless.

you are not entitled to a job. you are not entitled to money.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jan 2 23:42:46 2014 No.5068602 >>5068598 >70% of local businesses will be done for if the wage rises [citation non-existent]

>>	Anonymous Thu Jan 2 23:42:46 2014 No.5068604 >>5068598 >trying to argue with libtards They think the only businesses in existence are multinational conglomerates.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jan 2 23:43:46 2014 No.5068611 >>5068595 "I live" made you stop reading?

>>	Anonymous Thu Jan 2 23:44:46 2014 No.5068613 >>5068582 http://www.digitaljournal.com/news/world/global-poll-finds-that-us-is-regarded-as-greatest-threat-to-peace/article/364984 USA #1!!!

>>	Anonymous Thu Jan 2 23:44:46 2014 No.5068617 >>5068611 No, just the "I".

Anonymous Thu Jan 2 23:46:46 2014 No.5068621

>>5068576

>implying you had a point

Paying people "based on the job they perform" is retarded. Would you go to a restaurant that had no cooks? How about one without janitors? Would you go to one where you had to unpack the ingredients for your own meal from the delivery trucks? What brilliant new standard are you going to rock the business world with?

Anonymous Thu Jan 2 23:47:46 2014 No.5068625

>>5068598
>you are not entitled to a job.

Locke would disagree with you. As living beings we all have the natural right to provide for ourselves. Whether it is the ability to pick fruit off of a tree, or the ability to work a job to pay a farmer to pick fruit off of a tree.

The social contract of property rights requires the government to provide opportunities for work to those without property. If work truly cannot be had, then the government is required to care for the destitute, or else the social contract is void and the people must riot.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jan 2 23:48:46 2014 No.5068628 >>5068621 To clarify, it's a retarded talking point to throw out because it means nothing. Pay grades starting from the poverty line cripple the economy and shift costs to the middle class.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jan 2 23:48:46 2014 No.5068632 >>5068536 >give everyone free money >suddenly, money is more common >loses value >apartment and housing owners raise price to compensate wow you accomplished nothing

>>	Anonymous Thu Jan 2 23:50:46 2014 No.5068639 >>5068613 lol this

>>	Anonymous Thu Jan 2 23:51:46 2014 No.5068641 >mfw people are outraged at the idea of increasing minimum wage >mfw these same people can easily forget about the bailouts, subsidies, tax loopholes, etc which hurt the economy far more

>>	Anonymous Thu Jan 2 23:52:46 2014 No.5068644 >>5068625 Why can't you uneducated scum just be grateful for the chance of a shitty, shit paying job? There would be no jobs without us generous business owners.

Anonymous Thu Jan 2 23:52:46 2014 No.5068646

>>5068625
go to craigslist gigs, jobs or any of that RIGHT NOW.

there are jobs, but they always too hard or too low for others

>no training
get training, libaries computers etc everywhere, skills waiting to be learned.

you have to be braindead to die as a homeless person with all the charity

>>	Anonymous Thu Jan 2 23:52:46 2014 No.5068647 >>5068621 >Paying people "based on the job they perform" is retarded. Stopped reading there. Seriously, are you mentally handicapped? Do you even have a clue about how the economy works? It's not just farts and rainbows.

Anonymous Thu Jan 2 23:55:46 2014 No.5068656

>>5068598
http://www.cepr.net/documents/publications/min-wage-2013-02.pdf

From the summary at the beginning of the article:

"The employment effect of the minimum wage is one of the most studied topics in all of economics. This report examines the most recent wave of this research – roughly since 2000 – to determine the best current estimates of the impact of increases in the minimum wage on the employment prospects of low-wage workers. The weight of that evidence points to little or no employment response to modest increases in the minimum wage.
The report reviews evidence on eleven possible adjustments to minimum-wage increases that may help to explain why the measured employment effects are so consistently small. The strongest evidence suggests that the most important channels of adjustment are: reductions in labor turnover; improvements in organizational efficiency; reductions in wages of higher earners ("wage compression"); and small price increases."

Anonymous Thu Jan 2 23:57:46 2014 No.5068665

>>5068646
While I did say government, I did mean society.

Free education at libraries, and free meals at church soup kitchens are part of the social contract. You are correct that is is hard to starve as a homeless person, but it does just reinforce my point.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jan 2 23:57:46 2014 No.5068667 >>5068644 do your parents know that you take the ramblings of a sociopath like ayn rand seriously?

>>	Anonymous Thu Jan 2 23:58:46 2014 No.5068668 >>5068647 >didn't read the clarification Are you blind, or just here to reinforce what you already believe with religious devotion?

>>	Anonymous Fri Jan 3 00:00:46 2014 No.5068675 >>5068668 Your "clarification" was even more ridiculous than the first statement you made. You should be happy that I didn't quote the rest of it of 'hurr wat if all of dem disappeared!'

>>	Anonymous Fri Jan 3 00:02:46 2014 No.5068682 >>5068675 We're talking about minimum wages. If you start those at poverty levels, your dumb ass pays to keep those people alive while their employers reap the benefit. Did you think this thread is about the upper middle class? Are you lost?

>>	Anonymous Fri Jan 3 00:04:49 2014 No.5068688 >>5068682 No fucking shit we're talking about minimum wage. Why are you going off on tangents now? Do you live in Colorado?

>>	Anonymous Fri Jan 3 00:09:47 2014 No.5068698 >>5068688 The minimum wage is at poverty levels now, and the taxes your parents are most likely paying for you this year are higher because of it. What tangent are you talking about? You still haven't addressed the point.

Anonymous Fri Jan 3 00:13:47 2014 No.5068707

>>5068698
Minimum wage is for those at the entry level of the labor force and were never supposed to be a living wage.

Stocking groceries, flipping burgers, and punching a register are not worth more than minimum wage.

Labor is the number one operating cost, and doubling it would necessarily increase product price, thus decrease demand along with other factors that affect day to day business.

Stop dreaming.
/thread

>>	Anonymous Fri Jan 3 00:14:47 2014 No.5068711 >>5068667 Learn to identify sarcasm.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jan 3 00:15:34 2014 No.5068714 >>5068548 >Because you are paid based on the job you perform, not your worth as a human being. ha, ha, sure thing buddy. keep drinking that kool-aid. if you want to join us later, we are over here in the real world.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jan 3 00:16:18 2014 No.5068720 >>5068598 >70% of local businesses will be done for if the wage rises [citation needed] >all its going to do is make them hire less workers. [citation needed]

Anonymous Fri Jan 3 00:19:18 2014 No.5068729

>>5068707

See

>>5068656

If that's too tough to read for you, minimum wage increases are typically compensated for with small price increases, very little change in employment, and wage compression. Price increases are more than offset by the increased wage, and the increase in disposable income among the lower class increases demand far more than price increases decrease it. A living wage for the minimum is better for literally everyone but the highest earners, who can most afford the damage.

I know you won't accept that you've been proven wrong, jut putting it here for the readers.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jan 3 00:20:18 2014 No.5068730 >>5068714 Where you earn minimum wage for fast food and more than double for a skill like welding? Pretty spot on actually...

>>	Anonymous Fri Jan 3 00:21:18 2014 No.5068739 >>5068720 The second can be credited to Barnow, but I'm feeling too lazy to try and convince your unconvincible ass right now.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jan 3 00:21:18 2014 No.5068740 >>5068632 >>give everyone free money >>suddenly, money is more common increasing the minimum wage isn't the same thing as printing more currency, you colossal shitfuck

>>	Anonymous Fri Jan 3 00:22:18 2014 No.5068742 >>5068730 The minimum wage has fallen by about 30% against inflation from it's high point. The minimum wage is set by politics, not analysis of the value of labor. That's what he's inarticulately getting at, I think.

Anonymous Fri Jan 3 00:27:18 2014 No.5068754

>>5068729
When it comes to smaller businesses (i.e. the majority of businesses) the wage increase does mean layoffs. And if you didn't know, the largest seller for fast food is the dollar menu. Increasing that greatly does fuck with business.

"taxing the rich" or making well off earners "pay their fair share" is a seriously flawed concept that causes capital flight or business expenditure shifts, but in the end does not affect them.

At the end of the day, a burger flipper is honestly worth less than minimum wage.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jan 3 00:29:19 2014 No.5068758 >>5068754 you can keep saying what you believe, but that doesn't make it true.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jan 3 00:31:18 2014 No.5068766 File: 442 KB, 441x270, 1384652615486.gif [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >this entire thread

Anonymous Fri Jan 3 00:33:18 2014 No.5068770

>>5068754

I just linked a source demonstrating very little correlation between modest minimum wage increases and unemployment, and only a small correlation between minimum wage and the prices of consumer goods. I'm not talking about taxing the rich, I'm talking about the empirically observed impact of raising the minimum wage. Read the source, then I'll waste more time with you.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jan 3 00:35:18 2014 No.5068774 >>5068758 I can keep saying what's true, but that won't mean it will abide to your beliefs.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jan 3 00:39:18 2014 No.5068785 >>5068774 "I keep describing my own beliefs as true, why doesn't everyone agree with me yet?"

>>	Anonymous Fri Jan 3 01:17:18 2014 No.5068876 File: 45 KB, 600x431, Haha_quaker_jew.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>5068707 >What, I'll have to pay 25 cents more for a burger?

>>	Anonymous Fri Jan 3 01:19:18 2014 No.5068879 >>5068548 >Benevolent family figure to take care of you >Army Pick one

>>	Anonymous Fri Jan 3 06:21:50 2014 No.5069376 >>5067829 >You're Fixed that for you dummy.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jan 3 07:19:09 2014 No.5069445 >>5067947 The fact that everyone ignores points like the one this guy made makes me think that everyone against raising the minimum wage is actually a troll.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jan 3 07:32:08 2014 No.5069457 >>5068876 Try about a buck per Big Mac. The estimate is that all other costs remained the same, the price of fast food would have to rise about 25% to cover the jump from the current 9 dollar an hour average to a 15 dollar an hour average

>>	Anonymous Fri Jan 3 07:35:08 2014 No.5069460 >>5069445 How about the fact that the average wage of fast food workers in the U.S. is right about 9 dollars an hour already? So the 9 and half minimum wage in washington isnt much different? So he doesnt really have a point?

>>	Anonymous Fri Jan 3 07:36:08 2014 No.5069462 Oh, hey everyone, ignore this one too: http://www.kplu.org/post/why-wont-mcdonalds-move-20-feet-lower-wage-idaho

Anonymous Fri Jan 3 07:40:55 2014 No.5069465

>>5069460

>isn't much different

Do you now how averages work?

Let's see an example.

You have a cashier that makes $7.25 and a manager that makes $10.75. The average pay for a fast food worker is $9.00. Suddenly, the minimum wage is $9.00. Now, the average wage is $9.88, an increase of just under 10%, which is pretty significant. This is a pretty huge deal. I remember when I worked at Target in high school my first raise was only $0.24, and that was one of the biggest raises given out in the store.

Anonymous Fri Jan 3 07:41:55 2014 No.5069466

>>5069445
Also the "pro-living wage" people always ignore the fact that massive wage inflation leads to massive price inflation. Giving these people 40% raises dont really get them ahead at all, because their cost of living is about to get quite a bit more expensive too. Studies have shown that increases in the minimum wage actually cost the lowest income group (as hours and jobs tend to be cut to cover the margins) The people who benefit the most from minimum wage increases are actually the medium-skilled workers with wages less than double the minimum wage. Because when the cost of low skilled workers increases, it makes hiring fewer medium-skilled workers to replace the more expensive and numerous low skilled workers to replace them.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jan 3 12:09:22 2014 No.5069923 >>5069466 See >>5068770 Try again. Maybe use facts this time.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jan 3 13:01:57 2014 No.5070032 >>5069465 That is why for my own selfish reasons I don't like the idea of a minimum wage increase. I don't want to be making minimum wage again.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jan 3 13:06:56 2014 No.5070039 >>5070032 A lot of people's pay rate is tied to minimum wage, so people like you will likely get a raise as well, unless you work for a sleazebag.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jan 3 13:11:56 2014 No.5070052 >>5069466 and the idea of living wage is a joke. For some reason it is arbitrarily defined for supporting 4 people from one person's wage, which is utterly ridiculous, there is absolutely no reason people should be entitled to that

Anonymous Fri Jan 3 13:13:56 2014 No.5070056

>>5070039
People like him will most likely be fired (or have his hours cut so severely he might as well quit, that way they don't have to pay him unemployment) to cut down on costs because establishments who hire minimum wage workers generally are sleazebags who don't give a fuck.

Raising the wage won't help at all, because businesses will just adjust peoples' schedules to make sure they don't have to pay them any more than they already are.

Anonymous Fri Jan 3 13:15:57 2014 No.5070062
File: 6 KB, 236x240, babbytheimplier.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

they should just make the minimum wage 100k per year so everyone could afford to live with dignity and have a car and a house. imagine how much the economy would grow if everyone had 100k to spend.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jan 3 13:18:56 2014 No.5070071 >>5070062 The funny thing, is most liberal probably think thats a good idea

>>	Anonymous Fri Jan 3 13:19:56 2014 No.5070077 >>5070056 If they knew of a way to more money with less labor, they would have already fired him by now.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jan 3 13:19:56 2014 No.5070079 >>5070062 The previously poor people would immediately blow it on lotto tickets and booze and find a way to be poor again.

Anonymous Fri Jan 3 13:23:56 2014 No.5070094

>>5070079
Its kind of funny how only poor people ever buy cigarettes and mostly them buy lottery tickets. Poor people are almost always poor because of the unintelligent decisions they make, giving them a little more money will not stop them from making these shitty decisions

Anonymous Fri Jan 3 13:28:44 2014 No.5070112
File: 24 KB, 691x483, 1357515054098.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

>>5070079
You forgot
"..while still blaming richer people and their skin color for their problems and poor financial choices."

You need to remember that they'll always need someone else to blame for their failures in life.

Anonymous Fri Jan 3 13:40:44 2014 No.5070130

The reason this is doomed to fail is because they are alienating all the people who make above minimum wage but still get pretty low pay. If this actually passed I would only get a $2/hour raise while the new guy who was making minimum wage gets a $7/hr raise. How is that fair to me when I've been there for 7 years? And now everything will cost more because they can raise prices and blame someone else.

If they actually wanted this to pass they should get everyone who makes under $15 a hour a raise.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jan 3 13:45:44 2014 No.5070141 It seems like most people who don't support increasing the minimum wage only make 2-10 dollars more than it. I think they are just pissed because they don't want to feel devalued to the level of the shittiest employees

>>	Anonymous Fri Jan 3 13:45:44 2014 No.5070142 how fucking dumb to be to put yourself in a situation where you only deserve minimum wage beyond the age of 18?

Anonymous Fri Jan 3 13:49:44 2014 No.5070149

>>5070141
How is it fair for some who has been there for less time to get a bigger raise? Its only fair to give everyone under $15 an hour an equal raise. Just give everyone a dollar/hour raise instead of this dumb $15/hour for all shit which is way higher than the minimum wage has ever been since it was established.

Anonymous Fri Jan 3 13:50:44 2014 No.5070151

>>5070130
>How is that fair to me when I've been there for 7 years

What makes you think anything about life is fair? Some people are attactive. Some are not. Some people are althetic. Some are not. Some are smart, some are morons, most of us are somewhere in between. Some people are beautiful physically fit millionaires. Others are born with birth defects and an addiction to crack. What's fair about any of that?

>>	Anonymous Fri Jan 3 14:06:44 2014 No.5070185 >>5070149 If you make $15 an hour and you've been working somewhere for 7 years you should hang yourself

Anonymous Fri Jan 3 14:11:45 2014 No.5070191

Lets recap this.
>someone with no education or skills earns X amount of money
>someone with education or valuable skills earns Y amount of money
>person 1 says it's not fair

Wait what ?

Also

>small/big business
>CEO is there because he has skills or educations or just luck
>enjoys life because we're all greedy bastards no matter what
>workers with no skills or education or luck envy him

Again what ?

>>	Anonymous Fri Jan 3 14:13:45 2014 No.5070193 >>5070077 I work in an office by myself. They can't fire me without closing down the property.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jan 3 14:15:44 2014 No.5070197 >>5070193 Oh yeah and my property does 150k a month in rent.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jan 3 14:19:44 2014 No.5070201 >>5070197 And so.. do you or don't you believe a rise in the minimum wage will cost you you're job?

>>	Anonymous Fri Jan 3 14:21:44 2014 No.5070208 >>5070201 Not at all. But I don't believe I will receive a raise as well. So I will be back at making minimum wage. And then I will be even more ashamed of my life.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jan 3 14:27:45 2014 No.5070217 >>5068166 >When profits get hit by the layoffs due to poor productivity for the businesses foolish enough to do that, they'll let the workers choose between taking wage cuts or a downsizing.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jan 3 14:34:44 2014 No.5070225 >>5069457 So a Big Mac will be more expensive than a 2 pond bag of carrots? What a shame...

>>	Anonymous Fri Jan 3 14:35:44 2014 No.5070229 >>5070208 Right, you're just an asshole. Like everyone else who doesn't want a minimum wage increase.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jan 3 14:35:44 2014 No.5070230 >>5070225 Carrots will also be more expensive as they will have to pay the mexicans harvesting them more

>>	Anonymous Fri Jan 3 14:38:44 2014 No.5070233 >>5070229 Yup

>>	Anonymous Fri Jan 3 14:39:45 2014 No.5070237 >>5067928 10/10 troll I genuinely believed you were a real right-wing retard

>>	Anonymous Fri Jan 3 14:40:45 2014 No.5070238 >>5070230 agriculture is exempt from the minimum wage.

Anonymous Fri Jan 3 14:40:45 2014 No.5070240

>>5070229
>Like everyone else who doesn't want a minimum wage increase.

Nothing assholish about it. We just realize that despite the good intentions it won't actually help anyone.

Why don't we just raise everyone's pay? We can all become millionaries. That will work great!

>>	Anonymous Fri Jan 3 14:43:44 2014 No.5070244 >>5068582 >Actual real-life example enters the thread >Nobody listens or cares >Retarded hypothetical arguments continue 4chan

>>	Anonymous Fri Jan 3 14:43:44 2014 No.5070245 >>5070238 also they will have to pay the grocery store baggers and stockers more

>>	Anonymous Fri Jan 3 14:48:04 2014 No.5070249 >>5070240 I'm going to truly enjoy moving to evil socialist Europe so I can watch the U.S.A. slip even further into the third world from a safe distance thanks to ignorant faggots like you.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jan 3 14:49:04 2014 No.5070250 >>5070240 The only reason you think that is because you're an asshole.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jan 3 14:50:04 2014 No.5070255 >>5070244 What exactly did he say except that he lives in Norway ? Give us proof not just I live in Norway we're better than you because this and that.

Anonymous Fri Jan 3 14:51:04 2014 No.5070257

>>5070249

Why? If you like high minimum wages you should move to Australia. Check out what their food prices are like. No seriously, google it!

What's the point of making more money if everything is simply more expensive? 95% of this thread needs to spend some serious time with an economics textbook.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jan 3 14:53:04 2014 No.5070263 >>5070257 >Multiple studies who have run the numbers say your wrong. >No one arguing against an increase gives a shit enjoy being a part of a right-wing money cult

>>	Anonymous Fri Jan 3 15:04:05 2014 No.5070287 >>5070257 Realistically it shouldn't raise the price of things by much, but they will raise prices like crazy knowing they can blame it on minimum wage increases when people complain.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jan 3 15:09:04 2014 No.5070297 >>5070287 Do you not understand how competition works when there are a ton of companies competing for the same dollar?

>>	Anonymous Fri Jan 3 15:16:50 2014 No.5070319 >>5070257 And their high food prices have nothing to do with being the one of the most remote nations, reliant on hugely expensive imports. Oh wait...

>>	Anonymous Fri Jan 3 15:33:51 2014 No.5070350 >> Min wage goes up >> My wage doesn't >> Prices go up >> Now I'm poor Thanks, bottom feeders. Now we're all in shit, because you were not motivated to find a REAL job while you worked there TEMPORARILY.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jan 3 15:38:50 2014 No.5070357 >>5070350 You probably would already be poor if this is an issue. Unless you are talking about the poverty line.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jan 3 15:44:50 2014 No.5070368 >>5070319 Look at their historical food prices (Aka consumer price index). Now look at their minimum wage. Compare the two. See the correlation?

>>	Anonymous Fri Jan 3 15:51:50 2014 No.5070391 >>5070368 Correlation = causation amirite?

>>	Anonymous Fri Jan 3 15:56:50 2014 No.5070403 File: 99 KB, 1650x1275, Correlation-vs.-Causation.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>5070368

Anonymous Fri Jan 3 16:10:53 2014 No.5070433

As a frenchman, I am observing this situation with bemusement, slight dismay at the amount of asshats America seems to contain, and a feeling of sympathy for those poor sods who try to subsist in a country that considers a minimum living wage not to be part of a Human Being's basic rights.

You people are peculiar, if nothing else. Meh. At least you make some good movies.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jan 3 16:20:54 2014 No.5070458 >>5070433 Well even in the EU times are changing, the student's stipend system has degraded, now every student is expected to have a 20 hour job in addition to their curriculum in order to subsist on a unemployment level.

Anonymous Fri Jan 3 16:24:53 2014 No.5070473

>>5070391

Clearly correlation and causality not always the same thing.

But in this case it's pretty obvious that Australia's geography isn't the reason for their high food prices, otherwise the prices would have been that high even before minimum wage was increased.

So that example doesn't prove that minimum wage caused the high food prices--it may have been that or it may have been an unmentioned 3rd factor. BUT it makes it pretty F'in clear that it's not being a remote nation relying on imports.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jan 3 16:25:53 2014 No.5070478 >>5069466 >Studies have shown where?

>>	Anonymous Fri Jan 3 16:26:53 2014 No.5070485 >>5070052 >For some reason it is arbitrarily defined for supporting 4 people from one person's wage, Are you talking about the poverty line? It's adjusted for number of dependents.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jan 3 16:27:53 2014 No.5070487 TAKE THIS SHIT BACK TO /POL/ YOU DUMB SONSOFBITCHES.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jan 3 16:29:53 2014 No.5070491 >>5070487 NOT WHEN YOU ARE THIS MAD ABOUT IT WE WON'T

Anonymous Fri Jan 3 16:36:53 2014 No.5070515

>>5070478
CEPR: Hiring Response To Minimum Wage Hikes "More Likely To Be Positive Than Negative."
http://www.cepr.net/documents/publications/min-wage-2011-03.pdf#page=3

Recent Studies Point to Higher Pay but No Job Losses
http://www.americanprogressaction.org/issues/labor/news/2011/06/07/9747/an-increased-minimum-wage-is-good-policy-even-during-hard-times/

>Fiscal Policy Institute: "Indicators Of Economic Performance Were Consistently Better" In Higher Minimum Wage States For Small Business Job Growth.
http://www.fiscalpolicy.org/FPISmallBusinessMinWage.pdf

Really, you guys are all just misanthropic cunts.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jan 3 16:37:53 2014 No.5070519 >>5070515 Did you see the post I responded to? I'm on your side bro.

Anonymous Fri Jan 3 16:46:53 2014 No.5070547

>>5070485
>Are you talking about the poverty line? It's adjusted for number of dependents.
I am talking about new media buzzword "living wage" which liberals now say everyone is entitled t make even though it has no realistic meaning. It is ridiculous to think some 18 year old without job experience or education should be entitled to make enough to support a family of 4

stella litvic Anonymous Fri Jan 3 16:58:53 2014 No.5070593

No mention of franchisees and overhead?

Shocking that none of you grasp the other side of the coin; the people actually doing the employing.

I bet none of you know much about start up costs, either. $1-2 million for a McDonalds, ditto for Taco Bell. Subway is a deal, you might get away with $250k. How many of you have experience calculating overhead budgets for a fast food restaurant? It's not just a water and power bill with some food supplies. How many of you even budget for your own income?

Oh, bet you didn't know that on top of start up fees you also have to pay the parent company royalties PLUS advertising. For most McDonald's owners, that's roughly 10-15% royalties (depending on the deal) and another 3-7% for advertising. Yeah, 13-22% of your sales goes right out. Then factor in leasing the goddamn place (which averages around 10-12% of profit), utilities, insurances (notice the s), salary, employee training, supplies, etc. you'll suddenly see that the average profit for a fast food owner isn't what it's cracked up to be.

I've been on both sides; the ones you people are bickering about is not as shiny as you think.

Anonymous Fri Jan 3 16:58:53 2014 No.5070596

>>5070547

I don't think anyone is saying that, but it's very clear that you can't afford health insurance, rent, a cell phone plan (essentially required to hold a job), utilities and food on working a minimum wage job. Even worse if you throw a car into the mix, which is pretty much a necessity in many parts of the country due to inadequate public transportation.

Anonymous Fri Jan 3 17:02:53 2014 No.5070609

>>5070593

I should also mention that, anecdotally, at any given time any franchise can be operating in the red for months on end, hoping for a few months profit to turn things around (this is especially true for tourist towns that operate on seasonal schedules). No restaurant goes out of business with all debts settled and an even balance.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jan 3 17:02:53 2014 No.5070612 >>5070596 >I don't think anyone is saying that I think thats exactly what the recent "protests" are saying with their whole $15/hour whining

>>	Anonymous Fri Jan 3 17:03:53 2014 No.5070614 >>5070593 So don't open franchises. in general competently run business should make a penny in profits for every dollar they take in after costs like that.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jan 3 17:03:53 2014 No.5070619 >>5070596 >but it's very clear that you can't afford health insurance Health insurance is a sucker bet for 18-20somethings

Anonymous Fri Jan 3 17:06:53 2014 No.5070627

>>5070596
>but it's very clear that you can't afford health insurance, rent, a cell phone plan (essentially required to hold a job), utilities and food on working a minimum wage job. Even worse if you throw a car into the mix, which is pretty much a necessity in many parts of the country due to inadequate public transportation.
Except for the many thousands of people currently doing just that. Also, there is plenty of public transportation, especially in the geographically small neighborhoods where minimum wage is prevalent

>>	Anonymous Fri Jan 3 17:06:53 2014 No.5070628 >>5070614 That's fucking asinine. You're telling me that a franchisee making $95k in for himself each year is a failure because he didn't adhere to your bullshit rule? Get the fuck out of here.

Anonymous Fri Jan 3 17:07:53 2014 No.5070632

>>5070593
Actually fast food math is pretty easy to rough out
20% food cost
20% labor
20% licensing
20% overhead
20% profit

now the food cost and licensing stay about the same regardless of sales. Labor fluctuates a bit, but you can hire and fire as business grows or declines.

The two that will really change are overhead and profit. but 20% is a decent goal.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jan 3 17:07:53 2014 No.5070633 >>5070614 >in general competently run business should make a penny in profits for every dollar they take in after costs like that. Not when the government starts meddling

>>	Anonymous Fri Jan 3 17:08:53 2014 No.5070634 >>5070612 Well I think the "Family of four" thing is a bit of an overstatement made by that guy (or you, if it was you). The point is that minimum wage isn't even a living wage for a single person, let alone anyone with a dependent.

Anonymous Fri Jan 3 17:08:53 2014 No.5070637

>>5070628
Not calling them a failure, and I'm certainly not crying about his lack of income. The last franchise I worked for was a million dollar store, so the guy who owned it (and he owned several) took in 100k a year by employing a bunch of part time teenagers and couple full timers at minimum wage or damn near close to it.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jan 3 17:09:53 2014 No.5070639 >>5070634 I am pretty sure they cited 15$/hour as 10% above the poverty line if supporting a family of 4 on one income

Anonymous Fri Jan 3 17:11:53 2014 No.5070643

>>5070632

>now the food cost and licensing stay about the same regardless of sales.

No they don't. Royalties and advertising are percentages of sales.

And don't get me started on when a franchise forces you to invest in a product/training/advertising. I LOVED being told by Subway corporate I had to participate in the breakfast layout years ago. Yeah, those are the four hours of the day I can COUNT on losing money.

The rest of your math only works out in a textbook or fantasy world.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jan 3 17:12:53 2014 No.5070646 >>5070637 Not all franchisees make that sort of profit. My best year was 95k for myself. Realistically it is about 60k for one store.

Anonymous Fri Jan 3 17:12:53 2014 No.5070647

>>5070634
>The point is that minimum wage isn't even a living wage for a single person
but it is. maybe not if you want to live in an extremely expensive neighborhood in NYC, but it is certainly possible to live decently for a single person and many people do exactly that.

and regardless, minimum wage jobs are usually only occupied by people with nearly no work experience and absolutely no meaningful education. These are almost entirely short term entry level jobs. You do not need to hold down a minimum wage job for very long before you qualify yourself for above-minimum wage work (which would no longer be the case if dramatically increasing minimum wage)

>>	Anonymous Fri Jan 3 17:13:54 2014 No.5070652 >>5070643 >me:lists a percentage of sales >me:stay the same regardless of sales >you:don't stay the same regardless of sales >you:they are percentage of sales wtf

DrafterAnon !!6wopz6rNLsf Fri Jan 3 17:18:53 2014 No.5070660

You know, it's funny.

My father worked two jobs while attending university (for the second time), supporting his wife and two children. We barely ever saw him because he was always working and studying.

Now people feel it's justified that he pay over 65% of his income in taxes so that they can live comfortably saying "Welcome to Walmart".

>>	Anonymous Fri Jan 3 17:23:53 2014 No.5070674 >>5070660 Tell him to get a better accountant

>>	DrafterAnon !!6wopz6rNLsf Fri Jan 3 17:25:53 2014 No.5070678 >>5070674 The only way he would get taxed less is by breaking laws or moving out of Quebec.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jan 3 17:26:54 2014 No.5070679 >>5070678 >moving out of Quebec. probably a good idea

Anonymous Fri Jan 3 17:54:54 2014 No.5070746

>>5070627

Okay, you make $7.25 an hour. And amazingly you're a full-time employee on that wage, so you get benefits. You work 40 hours a week, 52 weeks per year (you work holidays too). You make $15,080 every year before taxes.

Health insurance, provided by your employer, still costs you an average of $5,884 per year. (http://kff.org/report-section/2013-summary-of-findings/))

So you're down to $9,196. You have a shitty tracfone. It costs $100 a year and you only use 400 minutes the entire goddamn year. (https://www.tracfone.com/direct/Purchase?app=TRACFONE&lang=en&fromPopup=yes&payGo=true&promoId=98184&cardType=TSAPP4001Y))

You're down to $9,096. Your claim that there is "plenty of public transportation" requires you to live in an urban area, which has pretty high rent as a rule. So let's say you live in St. Louis. And you have a roommate. You pay half of an $841 rent every month, for $5,052 a year. (http://www.apartmentratings.com/rate?a=MSAAvgRentalPrice&msa=7040))

So now you have $4,044. It's hard to find reliable data for average utility prices, so let's say you spend $100 per month due to those St. Louis winters. So that's $1200.

Anonymous Fri Jan 3 17:55:54 2014 No.5070751

>>5070746

So now you have $2,844. You have to take the bus to work every day. A bus pass is $72 every month, so $864 a year. (http://www.metrostlouis.org/FaresPasses/FareChart.aspx))

So now you have $1,980. You have to eat. You spend $20 a week on groceries, which is probably low even if you buy in bulk and make everything from scratch. Hope you like hauling your 50 lb bag of rice on the bus. $1,040 per year.

So now you have $940. For the entire year. Note that I did not include taxes, clothes, shoes, medical co-pays (average ER co-pay is about $200), getting mugged on the bus, having to visit home because your mom is dying. Those things will have to come out of your $940 for the entire year, or $78 per month. You do not get savings. You can't hope to go to school to improve yourself without taking on crippling loan debt. Even if you can get to school, you work 40 hours a week and are on public transportation for 10 hours per week. You sleep 7 hours every night and go to school part-time, for eight credit hours. That leaves you with 61 hours of free time, during which you have to cook all that food from scratch, do your homework, take the bus to school, and take the bus to the library.

So is it doable? Maybe. As long as you never get sick, you only buy clothes and shoes from Goodwill, you don't visit your family, and you resign yourself to staying in this position forever.

Yes, you can get food stamps, reduced bus fare, food from a food bank, and medical care from Medicaid. But these are called market failures, as the government is required to step in to pick up the slack. If you're going to do that anyways, why not just raise the fucking minimum wage?

>>	Anonymous Fri Jan 3 17:56:53 2014 No.5070753 >>5070746 >Health insurance, provided by your employer, still costs you an average of $5,884 per year Jesus christ, apparently I have a really good deal.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jan 3 17:57:53 2014 No.5070761 >>5070746 health insurance is a terrible idea for young person without children. Its a text book sucker bet

>>	Anonymous Fri Jan 3 17:58:53 2014 No.5070764 >>5070746 maybe you should get a second job. 40 hours a week isn't that much

>>	Anonymous Fri Jan 3 18:03:53 2014 No.5070777 >>5067799 spend 4 hours a day digging a hole, spend the other 4 hours covering it up with the same dirt. nothing of value was produced, MUH LIVING WAGE

>>	Anonymous Fri Jan 3 18:03:53 2014 No.5070778 >>5070761 Yeah, until the day you need it, then you're kicking yourself for not getting it when the $20k+ ER bill shows up.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jan 3 18:09:53 2014 No.5070790 >>5070746 >>5070751 if anyone is wondering, this person would pay 15% of their earnings ($2,262) in federal taxes, not to mention state taxes.

Anonymous Fri Jan 3 18:12:53 2014 No.5070798

ITT: "The only people who should be paid well are engineers/scientists and manual labor because they're the only 'real jobs!'"

Also, you know things are bad when the people they are trying to help (Waiters) are opposed to this. A water makes FAR more than minimum wage even on bad nights. They know this, and want to keep exploiting you.

Anonymous Fri Jan 3 18:13:53 2014 No.5070801

>>5070778

Yes, hence the "Bet" part. You might indeed get lucky and "win". But normally the house wins. It's like saying that buying lottery tickets is a good idea or playing craps is a good idea because you might win.

Fuck, at least with gambling there's a chance you come out ahead. With insurance the best case scenario is break-even.

Anonymous Fri Jan 3 18:18:53 2014 No.5070816

>>5070751
>If you're going to do that anyways, why not just raise the fucking minimum wage?

Because raising the wage doesn't fix any of the problems you described. As wages go up, so do the cost of services which depend on those wages. The person in your example would take home more money (if we assume that they kept their job), but their food, transportation, and other various expenses all go up as well.

The problem is that while it sounds good at first nobody is asking themselves where this extra money is going to come from? Raising the minimum wage doesn't magically create money out of thin air. It has to come from somewhere. And like any expense that a business incurs, that cost gets passed on to the price of goods and services. So yeah, you make more wages (assuming you still have your job), but everything you have to buy also costs more.

Anonymous Fri Jan 3 18:20:54 2014 No.5070824

>>5070801
>With insurance the best case scenario is break-even.
It's still better to have it and not need it than to need it and not have it.

I'd rather pay for insurance to break even with preventative care and have it there on the off chance that I have a major medical expense. Better than not having insurance at all and then having some kind of major health issue and ending up needing deplete all my savings and file for bankruptcy due to massive medical bills.

It's the same reason you get insurance on your car or house. And I don't know about you, but my health is more important to me than the car or house.

Anonymous Fri Jan 3 18:21:54 2014 No.5070828

>>5070816
>where this extra money is going to come from

this

imagine you are a business owner. suddenly minimum wage goes up. where are you going to get that money from? How are you going to balance the books? You have various choices:

-fire and/or give pay cuts to some people in order to cover raises for everyone else. That's great if you're one of the ones who keeps their job and gets a raise, but it sure sucks if your job is gone or you got a pay cut.

-raise prices to pass the cost onto the customer, then hope that you don't lose too many customers due to your price hike

-go out of business, at which point everyone has lost their job.

Anonymous Fri Jan 3 18:22:53 2014 No.5070833

If any of you actually worked at a restaurant you would know that being a waiter is more than carrying things to tables and cooks are not just 'burger flippers.' My brother has a tech support job that nets him far more than the people I work with, but from the stories he tells me, he doesn't have to do jack shit. Theres a lot more involved in deciding pay besides complexity and the amount of physical labor involved.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jan 3 18:23:53 2014 No.5070836 >>5070824 Oh, I agree with you. I would not be without insurance either. But I'm simply explaining that statistically, it IS a losing bet.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jan 3 18:23:53 2014 No.5070840 >>5070790 No. Standard deduct of 5k He pays 15% on the remainder

>>	DrafterAnon !!6wopz6rNLsf Fri Jan 3 18:59:31 2014 No.5070960 >>5070679 Basically my entire branch is planning to or strongly considering it. Get this: In the lowest tax bracket, the income tax ALONE (combined federal and provincial) comes out to 30%.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jan 3 18:59:31 2014 No.5070961 >>5070828 Cut hours slightly, be less wasteful, innovate. Why should society put up with businesses that can't pay their employees enough to stay off welfare?

Anonymous Fri Jan 3 19:05:31 2014 No.5070982

>>5070961

Cut hours? you mean I'm getting paid more per hour, but I'm working fewer hours. How does that help anything? It's a wash in the end.

>>innovate
In other words you have no clue, you're just passing the buck and "They" will figure it out by "innovating".

>>Why should society put up with businesses that can't pay their employees enough to stay off welfare?

How exactly is "society" putting up with anything? If I don't like a business I don't do business with them. If an employee doesn't like an employer they are welcome to get a job elsewhere. What exactly are we "putting up" with?

>>	Anonymous Fri Jan 3 19:10:31 2014 No.5070996 >>5070816 Why are you ignoring the studies, posted multiple times in this thread, that disprove your statements?

Anonymous Fri Jan 3 19:21:47 2014 No.5071029

>>5070996

Because those studies don't disprove my statements. There has yet to be one posted which does. Specifics please if you think you found one.

Anyway, let me repeat my question since you didn't answer it last time:

Where is the money going to come from to raise wages, if not from being passed onto the consumer as with any other cost of doing business (rent, taxes, raw materials, etc.)?

this thread is filled with "virgins discussing sex"--everyone seems to think it will just work out but there is precious little actual experience with finance and business management here.

Anonymous Fri Jan 3 19:25:48 2014 No.5071038
File: 787 KB, 200x164, 1379719972502.gif [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

Why don't we just let people starve and die if they can't get jobs that pay well? No underclass whining about living wage, no underclass populating the world with kids they can't support, eventually no low-tier work not handled by robots.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jan 3 19:26:48 2014 No.5071043 >>5071038 >muh feelings

>>	Anonymous Fri Jan 3 19:48:33 2014 No.5071074 >>5067808 >collage Went to college ,still can't spell

Anonymous Fri Jan 3 19:49:33 2014 No.5071078

>>5071029
>if not from being passed onto the consumer as with any other cost of doing business (rent, taxes, raw materials, etc.)?

It can be passed on to the consumer, but sky-is-falling bullshit prices claimed by lobbyists aren't nearly accurate. The price increase will occur, but the purchasing power of those benefiting from the wage increase will handily outpace the price increase. As shown in these studies:

>>5068656
>>5070515

>>	Anonymous Fri Jan 3 19:51:06 2014 No.5071083 >>5067846 >But I don't have a degree in economics, clearly I shouldn't be discussing this So, shut the hell up.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jan 3 19:53:06 2014 No.5071090 >>5067880 He didn't, he owns two businesses and you've been saying that business owners are rolling in money.

Anonymous Fri Jan 3 20:03:34 2014 No.5071110

>>5071078

Did you actually read these studies or are you just parroting abstracts? I just started reading the first one and I already found a big red flag. On page 5 the author is discussing a survey of a minimum wage hike in New Jersey. I looked up the actual report cited in this review. Turns out they did a phone survey "before and after" the law and found no appreiable change in employment. Sounds like the minimum wage hike was good, right? Not really. What they didn't tell you in this paper buy you can read in the original is that over the same period of time the fast food business added more jobs in other states during the time period. So while New Jersey didn't appear to lose any jobs at first glance, if you look at the bigger picture, they did--they had less growth (fewer new jobs) than neighboring states did.

The latter part of the paper is equally inreresting. The author goes on to do a "Meta Review" of other studies. But strangely enough, he only chose a few of the many of the studies done on wages at the time. And look! The ones he picked just so happen to be the ones which support his conclusions, at the omission of many others. Hmmm.

but despite all of that, he still goes on to admit that the money will come from "wage compression"--a fancy way of saying PAY CUTS for some people, and also from increased prices.

In fact, one of the first papers this guy goes to talk about (Card and Krueger 1994) documents the fact that McDonalds did in fact raise their prices after the 1992 increase of the minimum wage. It also discusses how other companies didn't adjust the "price" directly, but instead cut the weight of ingredients going into the food. Same money, fewer fries.

Anonymous Fri Jan 3 20:04:33 2014 No.5071113

>>5071078
>The price increase will occur, but the purchasing power of those benefiting from the wage increase will handily outpace the price increas

fuck, why are we stopping at $15/hour then? Let's pay everyone a million dollars an hour! Purchasing power increases faster than prices increase, right?

>>	Anonymous Fri Jan 3 20:13:04 2014 No.5071128 >>5071113 >if apples are so good for you, why don't you eat a MILLION of them, faggot? you argue like a buffoon

>>	Anonymous Fri Jan 3 20:15:04 2014 No.5071135 >>5071128 his hyperbole aside, he's right. why stop at $15? why not $18? $20? etc?

Anonymous Fri Jan 3 20:17:04 2014 No.5071146

>>5070982
>Cut hours? you mean I'm getting paid more per hour, but I'm working fewer hours. How does that help anything?

are you being deliberately obtuse? the worker now has free time with which to relax, or to pursue education or vocational training, or to socialize, or to exercise, or to work an internship or part-time position, or in your case maybe you could spend the time attending posting school so you could learn how to post well

Anonymous Fri Jan 3 20:23:07 2014 No.5071160

>>5070816
>As wages go up, so do the cost of services which depend on those wages.

but only by a small proportion relative to the increase in wages. ignoring for the moment that not all services are staffed by minimum wage workers in the first place, basically no services are 100% labour cost. not even prostitution.

yes, there would be some inflation in the price of services, but it the increase in pay would significantly surpass it.

Anonymous Fri Jan 3 20:23:07 2014 No.5071164

>>5071110

I'll concede that the methodology isn't entirely sound, though I see very little proof on your side of things. How do you explain things like this:

>>5069462

Additionally, I'm not really understanding your argument here. Are you just saying that not all of my statements are correct (which is a legitimate thing for you to say), or are you advocating an opposing idea?

Anonymous Fri Jan 3 20:24:06 2014 No.5071168

>>5070660
>You know, it's funny.

>My father worked two jobs while attending university (for the second time), supporting his wife and two children. We barely ever saw him because he was always working and studying.

the government still paid for tuition back when your father attended university, so I don't give a shit about his sob story.

I had to pay every goddamned cent myself. whiny boomers can get fucked.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jan 3 20:24:06 2014 No.5071169 >>5071078 Those studies mention a modest increase in minimum wage. I'm pretty sure an increase to a $15 minimum wage is far above "modest."

>>	Anonymous Fri Jan 3 20:25:06 2014 No.5071172 >>5071168 >the government still paid for tuition back when your father attended university [citation needed] the only reason you think that is because most of them were vets

Anonymous Fri Jan 3 20:29:06 2014 No.5071186

>>5071169

Oh I agree that $15 is probably too much and such a dramatic increase will probably result in some sort of negative side effects, but I can't predict them.

I'm not saying you're doing this, but for some reason a lot of people in this discussion like to think "you oppose my viewpoint? YOU MUST LIVE IN A FANTASY WORLD WHERE YOU BELIEVE ALL KINDS OF RIDICULOUS SHIT!" It's frustrating. The best course of action in my opinion would be to bump up the minimum wage to around $9.00 or so and observe the effects. If the measured effects are catastrophic, lower it again. If they're all positive, crank it up until negative effects are observed. OF course, it WOULD be fantastical to think that it will either bring only negative or only positive effects, but we have to observe and weigh them as they occur.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jan 3 20:31:06 2014 No.5071195 >>5071135 >well okay, maybe that slippery slope argument is irrational, but how about this slippery slope which is slightly less steep? guys?

Anonymous Fri Jan 3 20:34:07 2014 No.5071201

>>5071172
>>the government still paid for tuition back when your father attended university
>[citation needed]
>the only reason you think that is because most of them were vets

the reason I think that is because he's talking about his father who lives in Quebec. the part of Canada that's REALLY socialist.

Anonymous Fri Jan 3 21:03:08 2014 No.5071262

>>5071195

It's not a slippery slope arugment at all. The point is that when you consider absurdly high minimum wages like $100/hour or something it forces people to realize that despite good intentions, this sort of problem cannot be fixed by legislation, and that you have to ask yourself "where does that money come from?". Those principles apply to any minimum wage, regardless if it's $0.01/hour or if it's a million dollars an hour.

The only real effect a minimum wage has is that it eliminates all jobs that pay less than the minimum wage, or at least drives them underground. It does not magically "create" additional wealth despite good intentions.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jan 3 21:07:06 2014 No.5071272 >>5071262 The argument is as useless as saying "let's eliminate minimum wage totally" which would result in just paying people enough to not die.

Anonymous Fri Jan 3 21:08:06 2014 No.5071274

>>5071262

It comes from paying overpaid upper management less. No one is saying it will magically create additional wealth. This is delusional thinking on the part of people who can't, or more likely won't conceive of a world in which the CEO doesn't make 1000x the salary of the front line workers.

>>	DrafterAnon !!6wopz6rNLsf Fri Jan 3 21:15:23 2014 No.5071291 >>5071168 He paid for his education out of his own pocket. Hell, he had to pay MORE than just about everyone in his class because he was not born here. Don't fucking assume shit.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jan 3 21:19:23 2014 No.5071300 >>5071291 I bet he still paid less than I did, even adjusted for inflation. go on, ask him how much his tuition was.

Anonymous Fri Jan 3 21:24:23 2014 No.5071314

>>5071300

It will be whatever who supports his argument. When on /ck/, every anon was born into a poverty-stricken home to drug addict parents. They pulled themselves up by "muh bootstraps" through sheer determination with no help from parents, grandparents, aunts, uncles, siblings, friends, the government. Just hard work and Jesus. They spend $8.50 per week on food, make everything from scratch, and work three full-time jobs while getting two STEM degrees and working on their PhD.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jan 3 21:27:23 2014 No.5071329 Holy shit. And i thought minimum wage of 10.25 here in Canada is low. No wonder people live in fucking poverty and kids cant afford school in the states.

>>	DrafterAnon !!6wopz6rNLsf Fri Jan 3 21:27:23 2014 No.5071330 >>5071314 Actually, we did make most stuff from scratch (wherever it was cheaper). Home made mayo and peanut butter are leagues above the stuff you get in a jar. We also ate so much rice and pasta it would make your head spin.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jan 3 21:41:26 2014 No.5071370 >>5071314 Are you implying thats not entirely possible minus the three full time?

>>	Anonymous Fri Jan 3 21:42:26 2014 No.5071375 >>5067751 >$12-14 >a good wage LOL POORFAGS

Anonymous Fri Jan 3 21:45:26 2014 No.5071380

>>5071329
Very few people are in poverty, you have to basically be mentally handicapped or literally a child to only earn minimum wage. No one can afford college straight up because college is fucking expensive, but loans and scholarships are quite easy to secure, so that barrier very rarely keeps anyone away from going to college

>>	Anonymous Fri Jan 3 21:45:26 2014 No.5071381 File: 133 KB, 345x329, republicunt.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>5067751 >everyone should drop out of school and work with their hands just like me Stop that. Any Mexican can wield a torch. This country needs an educated workforce.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jan 3 21:47:58 2014 No.5071386 >>5071380 Maybe if trades and semi-skilled labor paid better, we wouldn't have retards taking out huge loans to go and fail out of three majors only to major in business and then work at mcdonalds anyway.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jan 3 21:51:58 2014 No.5071393 >>5071386 >Maybe if trades and semi-skilled labor paid better people don't want to do those because its shitty work, not because of the pay. A lot of those professions pay quite well, and they are not minimum wage situations

Anonymous Fri Jan 3 21:54:57 2014 No.5071398

>>5067689
>THIS JUST IN BUSINESS OWNERS WANT TO CUT COSTS

It's like you faggots think they are hiding a secret pot of money and if you get it somehow all your shit will be solved.

What's really hilarious is you niggers HATE wealth for the sake of OBTAINING it.

Fuck off all of you.

Anonymous Fri Jan 3 21:56:57 2014 No.5071404
File: 73 KB, 395x610, 20.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

>>5071398
>if I deep throat the 1% they will anoint me as one of their own

This is what voters who are successfully tricked into voting against their own interests time and time again ACTUALLY believe.

>>	DrafterAnon !!6wopz6rNLsf Fri Jan 3 22:00:57 2014 No.5071412 >>5071381 You actually need certification to be a welder (~1.5 years at a vocational school). Depending on the kind of welding you do, you can easily earn 60-70k a year.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jan 3 22:00:57 2014 No.5071414 >>5071404 If we dramatically raise the minimum wage, where do you democrats believe that money comes from?

>>	Anonymous Fri Jan 3 22:02:58 2014 No.5071421 >>5071414 >>5071274

>>	Anonymous Fri Jan 3 22:04:57 2014 No.5071428 >>5071421 >>5071414 Also raising the minimum wage by a few bucks isn't "drastically raising the minimum wage". No one is coming some rich asshole's home. Just maybe the yacht docked at his fourth beach house in the south of France.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jan 3 22:06:57 2014 No.5071435 >>5071428 30% or so is pretty drastic. 5% of something might be reasonable, a few bucks is not

Anonymous Fri Jan 3 22:08:57 2014 No.5071441

>>5071428
>>5071421
Thats just not how economics work. McDonalds franchise owners are not rich people, they cannot just absorb these extra costs you want to add. Small businesses and franchises would be fucked and be forced to either raise prices or decrease employment. This delusional they would pay rich people less thing is just not plausible

>>	Anonymous Fri Jan 3 22:10:57 2014 No.5071444 >>5071441 Some business models would become unsustainable, yes. Oh the humanity, someone think of the CEOs. I don't think anyone is going to start crying when McDs and Wal Mart pull out of town.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jan 3 22:12:57 2014 No.5071449 >>5071441 if a business can only stay in business by paying exploitatively low wages then maybe they don't deserve to be in business.

>>	DrafterAnon !!6wopz6rNLsf Fri Jan 3 22:14:57 2014 No.5071456 >>5071444 If that was their source of employment, they will.

Anonymous Fri Jan 3 22:15:57 2014 No.5071458

>>5071444
>Oh the humanity, someone think of the CEOs.
>I don't think anyone is going to start crying when McDs and Wal Mart pull out of town.
You really need to think this through. When they raise prices, and decrease staff. This primarily hurts low income people. Liberal economic ideology is ridiculously shortsighted and all about emotions. You would be harming the very people you think you are helping

>>	Anonymous Fri Jan 3 22:16:58 2014 No.5071461 >>5071449 >exploitatively There is absolutely no exploitation going on. Stop acting dumb

Anonymous Fri Jan 3 22:19:57 2014 No.5071470

>>5071449
They wouldn't go out of business, all of their competitors would be facing the same new pressure and prices would go up (and employment would go down). Democrats are only harming their own people with these ideas, luckily for the party most of the voting base is too dumb to realize it.

Anonymous Fri Jan 3 22:22:57 2014 No.5071481

>>5071458
>>5071456

Why is it that poor people getting fucked up the ass is wonderful creative destruction when it involves a permanent wealth transfer from poor to rich, but it's an intolerable imposition on a captive exploited workforce when it's a one-time market adjustment in response to progressive policy changes?

Whenever there's a change, some poor people get fucked. The rich will always have a soft landing. Your argument is like slave owners in the old South saying "oh what will the slaves do when slavery is abolished? they LIKE it this way!"

Spare me

>>	Anonymous Fri Jan 3 22:27:59 2014 No.5071494 File: 473 KB, 1698x1131, this.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>5071481 this

DrafterAnon !!6wopz6rNLsf Fri Jan 3 22:33:59 2014 No.5071514

>>5071481

What you are suggesting WOULD fuck poor people in the ass.

The only people who are working for minimum wage right now who would benefit from an increase are the very same ones with the potential to get OUT of minimum wage. Those who CAN'T do anything else get fucked even harder than they currently are.

How compassionate!

>>	Anonymous Fri Jan 3 22:36:59 2014 No.5071520 >>5071481 The only one fucking poor people up the ass is themselves. They have no one else to blame

>>	Anonymous Fri Jan 3 22:37:59 2014 No.5071523 >>5071481 Minimum wage increases takes money from the poor to give to the poor. You are not sneakily stealing this money from the elusive rich people as you seem to believe

Anonymous Fri Jan 3 22:38:59 2014 No.5071528

>>5071481
>Whenever there's a change, some poor people get fucked. The rich will always have a soft landing
because rich people are usually smart, and poor people are never smart. It has nothing to do with the system and everything to do with genetics (and environmental factors influencing intelligence)

>>	Anonymous Fri Jan 3 22:42:59 2014 No.5071538 >>5067764 >I make 8.30 an hour at the moment, and it took me four years to get to that from 7.25 Hoooo boy, look at you. Keep it up and in 20 years you could be making 13.55 an hour! Remember who your friends are when that happens, high roller.

Anonymous Fri Jan 3 22:44:59 2014 No.5071544

>>5067764
>I'm appallingly poor and I'm going to support people who want to keep it that way by parroting nonsensical arguments that I don't understand because they don't make sense but my betters taught them to me and they said they'd give me a 25 cent raise if I repeated them.

Republican voter logic right here, ladies and gentlemen.

Anonymous Sat Jan 4 09:52:35 2014 No.5072415

>>5071370

Of course it's entirely possible. It's just improbable. If you actually believe that half of the people who say shit like "someone is always hiring," "you're just not trying hard enough," etc etc are actually as self-made as they portray themselves, you're naive.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jan 4 10:02:35 2014 No.5072431 out of curiosity i looked up on wikipedia how many people actually graduate college in the us it's only about 30% of people 30%

Anonymous Sat Jan 4 10:17:08 2014 No.5072438

>>5070960

I know you're talking about Canada but consider the following:

Seven states in the union don't even have a state income tax. Another 8 have a flat rate that never exceeds 5% (Utah and Illinois). Throw in Tennessee's oddball situation and you've got 16 states that either don't have or don't tax above 5% on income.

The lowest federal income tax bracket is 10%.

The poorest 20% of Americans pay 12.3% effective income tax and 5% state. 17.3% (that includes personal and corporate income, payroll, property, sales, excise, and estate taxes - not just the federal and state requirements you spoke of).

CITE: http://ctj.org/images/taxday2012table.jpg, Institute on Taxation and Economic Policy Tax Model, April 2012

I worked for years in a public hospital (Grady Memorial Hospital, one of the largest in the country). I found that most of those claiming to be "poor" had nice clothes, they had a nice, new cell phone, they had a nice purse and so did their children as they waited outside the WIC office. Let's assume they were poor: don't you think their priorities were a bit skewed?

This isn't a one off tale. A majority of Americans live well beyond their means. You're fucking broke because your cell phone and it's bill are already 20% of your income. That fucking Dodge Charger or Chrysler 300? Yeah, there is another 40%. BUT IM BROKE!

Develop a fucking budget, stay out of debt, and constantly seek to improve your living situation and wealth building tool (your income!). This isn't rocket science folks!

>>	Anonymous Sat Jan 4 10:19:09 2014 No.5072442 >>5072438 isn't the pursuit of happiness a constitutional right

>>	Anonymous Sat Jan 4 10:21:08 2014 No.5072445 >>5072438 > You're fucking broke because your cell phone and it's bill are already 20% of your income. That fucking Dodge Charger or Chrysler 300? Yeah, there is another 40%. BUT IM BROKE! Fantastic imagination you have there.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jan 4 10:47:55 2014 No.5072470 >>5072442 how the constitution protects babygirl's vaginas from being cut, but it doesn't protect babyboy's penises from being cut ? constitution is shite

>>	Anonymous Sat Jan 4 10:52:55 2014 No.5072478 File: 60 KB, 547x329, 1388850739745.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>5072445 You've never been around poor black people, have you? I'm sorry you're so sheltered. >>5072442 Pursuit, yes, guarantee, no.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jan 4 10:52:55 2014 No.5072480 Look at all the Ayn Rank dick sucking going on.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jan 4 10:53:55 2014 No.5072484 >>5072480 The 2013 de facto liberal response. You didn't get the memo from HQ? The 2014 response is the same as the 2012 response: RACIST!

>>	Anonymous Sat Jan 4 11:00:56 2014 No.5072491 >>5072484 Because empathy is something unique to liberals. You can be libertarian or conservative while showing compassion for your fellow humans, but not when you're deep throating Randian "philosophy".

>>	Anonymous Sat Jan 4 11:02:55 2014 No.5072493 >>5071412 >1.5 years or like 30 minutes and 35 bucks

Anonymous Sat Jan 4 11:05:55 2014 No.5072498

>>5072478

I used to work with some at my old job. Mailroom staff and security guards. They were hard working honest folk, some single moms who had made bad choices, some young guys who knocked up their girlfriends supporting their families on $10/hr. They dressed sensibly and rode public transportation. No Dodge Chargers or $120/month data plans. Home cooked foods in tupperware for lunch every day.

Then again I tend to work for companies that hire intelligent people regardless of race, maybe that's my problem. I'm sorry you've only been able to get an interview at companies that hire the dregs of society.

Anonymous Sat Jan 4 11:06:55 2014 No.5072501
File: 42 KB, 350x768, foodstamp.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

>>5072491

You act like most conservatives/libertarians hate everyone using social programs. We don't. We do recognize there is a massive abuse that needs to be addressed. When we try, however, you demagogue things with words like racist! homophobe! intolerance!

Again, I don't think you've ever been around poor black people or in an impoverished part of town. They know how to play the game, buddy, they're not as dumb as they lead everyone to believe. Unfortunately, it's at my expense.

>>5072498

A public hospital doesn't hire the dregs of society you fucking idiot, WE TREAT THEM BECAUSE THEY DONT HAVE MONEY TO GO ELSEWHERE. SAFETY NET HOSPITALS DIPSHIT, GET OUT AND LEARN.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jan 4 11:07:55 2014 No.5072502 >>5072501 I should also mention that they have money for treatment, it's just locked up in the car and phone payments.

Anonymous Sat Jan 4 11:10:12 2014 No.5072507

>>5072501
>A public hospital doesn't hire the dregs of society you fucking idiot

So first you go on a rant about these people who are too dumb not to get expensive cell phone plans and expensive cars on minimum wage, and then you go on to tell me that you're working with the cream of the crop?

Something tells me you're not all that different up there inside the skull, compared to your coworkers. I'd suggest you yourself get out and learn, but I don't think anyone with common sense or decency wants to associate with your kind, professionally or personally.

Anonymous Sat Jan 4 11:12:59 2014 No.5072515

>>5072507
yeah this is getting to ad hominem territory but doesn't everyone in this thread that's saying "improve yourself" sound so fucking hostile and shitty?
like eugh, wouldn't want to run into them on the street or they might tell me to get a job or something

Anonymous Sat Jan 4 11:13:59 2014 No.5072518

>>5072507

Hahaha, cream of the crop. No, you see, they don't have to work because they know the social programs will provide it all for them. It's quite impressive, but nevertheless immoral.

Also, learn to read, I said I worked, as in past tense. I got out of public health care and went private as soon as Obamacare passed

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hRbgRffXvHk

It's sad that you've never been exposed to their culture in person before.

Anonymous Sat Jan 4 11:15:01 2014 No.5072524

>>5072502
Bullshit, you hospitals charge 300 bucks for an aspirin and 2 grand for laying in your bed for 2 hours.

Lord have mercy on the poor smuck who needs a 30 minute operation to have an appendix removed. That's 30 grand at least.

No one has the money to afford a hospital. Some people are just lucky enough to be able to get insurance. Fortunately the ACA is changing that.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jan 4 11:15:01 2014 No.5072525 >>5072518 >immoral what's immoral about taking advantage of a system that's actively fucking you every day of your life

Anonymous Sat Jan 4 11:16:01 2014 No.5072526

>>5072501
Why do you keep assuming I'm liberal? Please stop.

This thread is about whether people should be able to live their life without starving or going homeless while working 40 hours a week at a job, or simply earning a living wage.

It's about whether or not you see a person as more than just an animal. Again, this isn't a liberal viewpoint. This is something a grade school child has the reasoning ability to conclude, because over thousands of years we as a species have come to value a human life. Why we suddenly stopped doing this in the last fifty years is another point of debate; however, the issue with wages is a moral one, not economic one.

Anonymous Sat Jan 4 11:16:01 2014 No.5072527

>>5072501
>>5072478
>>5072438

I think you're problem here is that you are portraying abuses of safety net systems as the rule, when they are the exception. Of course you hear about people abusing the programs; those stories will excite and enrage you. You don't hear about Lashawnda buying a bag of beans and some ham hocks because no one gives a shit.

http://feedingamerica.org/how-we-fight-hunger/programs-and-services/public-assistance-programs/supplemental-nutrition-assistance-program/snap-myths-realities.aspx

Anonymous Sat Jan 4 11:22:01 2014 No.5072538

>>5072525

None of them have been taken advantage anymore than you or I.

>>5072524

Your ignorance is showing. I don't think you've even been to a public hospital much less know how they operate.

Do this. Go to one, claim chest pains, tell them you have no money. They'll treat you. They'll even give you a bill to make it formal, knowing damn well you won't pay.

If anything, you'll get a free EKG to confirm your health.

The hospital will write it off. Repeat 200 times a day and you wonder why public hospitals usually always operate in the red.

>>5072526

Get the fuck out of here. The majority of fast food workers don't even work 40 hours, along with most retail workers. What's next? Offering full benefits at 20 because that's almost 2 days of a week spent at work?!?1

>>5072527

You should really got visit a WIC office. Just stand outside and watch. I promise at least one of your view points will change.

Anonymous Sat Jan 4 11:29:01 2014 No.5072561

>>5072538
>You should really got visit a WIC office. Just stand outside and watch.

That's a pretty poor way to develop an outlook on things. You're asking me to observe a small portion of the population and change my viewpoint based on the way they look. I invite you to actually go to the website I linked and read their statistics.

I realize it's very convenient for you to think "FOOD STAMP USERS = DUMB" but it's not that simple.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jan 4 11:30:01 2014 No.5072565 >>5072538 >Hospital will write it off hahahahahahahaha You can't even bankrupt your way out of hospital bills anymore

>>	Anonymous Sat Jan 4 12:12:47 2014 No.5072659 >>5072565 I thin he meant write it off as in charging the government via tax credits and the like.

Anonymous Sat Jan 4 14:33:57 2014 No.5072997

>>5072565

I don't know how they do it but anyone involved in medical billing will know just how much they write off, even on bills that are being paid. Negotiating is a huge part of medical billing.

Also, the only thing bankruptcy doesn't protect is student loans and child support. In fact, medical bills are the biggest cause of bankruptcy in this country.

>>5072561

Friend, I don't think you're reading what I am writing. I am not against social programs, far from it. I've never had to use them but I can sympathize with those that legitimately need them because when I just graduated college and was on my own, times were tough, shit was hard. I know that feel, bro.

My problem is the abuses of the system. I don't give two shits that you think anyone has disenfranchised black or poor people; that is not an excuse and if it were it would be written in the law but it is not. I fail to see how the government is anymore responsible than their own culture. Hence, the suggestion to go to the WIC office or just find someone using EBT (might I suggest convenience stores in the ghetto). You will see quite a few, perhaps even the majority in your area, have iPhones, Chargers or 300s (almost without fail), Louis Vitton everything, etc. It's disgusting. These people need assistance yet they can afford car payments and nice accessories? Give me a break.

In fact, for a while, the neat trick at my hospital was to claim chest pains for the free ER ride and then disappear before they could process you. Why? Free one way trip in town to shop. Shit you not.

Unless any of you live in Birmingham, DC, Atlanta, Memphis, or the like, I don't want to hear your opinion until you go experience it for yourself.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jan 4 14:59:59 2014 No.5073066 >>5072997 >DC > Median household income: $88,233 > Unemployment rate: 5.6% (46th lowest) > Poverty rate: 8.4% (4th lowest)

Anonymous Sat Jan 4 18:23:12 2014 No.5073535

>>5072997
>My problem is the abuses of the system.

I get that. And yes, abuses are shitty, but they're not nearly as widespread as those looking to de-fund the programs would like you to believe. It may seem like everyone around you is doing it, but you have to realize that you don't interact with that many people every day compared to the millions of people relying on food stamps and other services.

Anonymous Sat Jan 4 18:23:12 2014 No.5073536
File: 246 KB, 790x462, jldfajslkdjsf[1].png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

>>5070237
there is no reason anyone should work in fast food for an extended period of time. those sorts of jobs are generally reserved to unskilled workers (teenagers, people just entering the workforce). now, if you learn some sort of skill you make your labor more valuable. its really that simple. supply and demand works for labor too, and its binding to raise it above it's current level. google "binding minimum wage". the fact that employers frequently hire at minimum wage, and not above indicates that it is binding. have fun with your increased unemployment.

Anonymous Sat Jan 4 18:31:14 2014 No.5073564

>>5072438
You realize people can have a good job, be paying for all these things and keeping a budget, and then lose a job or get have some emergency pop up and fuck them out of all their wealth, while still being locked into a loan or contract, right?

No, you don't, because you're a cunt.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jan 4 18:32:14 2014 No.5073568 File: 132 KB, 500x500, 1386959189051.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>5073536 Your charts are about ice cream cones, not minimum wage, dumbass.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jan 4 18:39:14 2014 No.5073603 File: 5 KB, 287x210, OSG_connection_4_2[1].gif [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>5073568 price floor works for labor too, dumbass. i chose that image so dummies like you could try and understand.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jan 4 18:41:14 2014 No.5073610 File: 17 KB, 192x240, 1388605764102.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>5073603 >price floor works for labor too Sure thing, buddy. You can change the labels around on your ice cream graph but that doesn't mean you're right.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jan 4 18:47:28 2014 No.5073630 >>5073610 gud trell i gib u 5/5

>>	Anonymous Sat Jan 4 19:04:30 2014 No.5073706 >>5073536 >yfw robots finish replacing the agriculture and manufacturing industries leaving service as the only field to employ humans.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jan 4 19:05:30 2014 No.5073714 >>5073535 Also players are gonna play. They will find some way to con society for a free ride regardless of subsidy programs.

Anonymous Sat Jan 4 21:54:10 2014 No.5074169

>>5072501
>You act like most conservatives/libertarians hate everyone using social programs. We don't. We do recognize there is a massive abuse that needs to be addressed. When we try, however, you demagogue things with words like racist! homophobe! intolerance!

the thing is that there isn't actually massive abuse that needs to be addressed

that's just a meme that racists spread around so that they can rail against social programs without admitting that it's because they're racist

if you're not doing this on purpose, I would entreat you to actually look at the numbers, because you're being tricked by racists into supporting racism.

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/ck/ - Food & Cooking