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/ck/ - Food & Cooking

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4817377 No.4817377[DELETED]  [Reply] [Original]

So what I take from this documentary is

>Sushi Chefs spend 80 years making one kind of food
>most of the mastery is just being able to do it fastly, which like anything comes with experience
>the flavor aspect is largely influenced by how good of ingredients you have access to

Why are sushi chefs respected at all? They're a one trick pony and sushi is one of the most simple kinds of food in the world, the only challenge could possibly be making it look pretty and even then they're outclassed by European cuisine

>> No.4817394

It's like I traveled back in time and decided to go on /ck/ instead of make important changes...

>> No.4817445

>>4817377

eat his sushi before you judge his life's work.

based on the documentary those guys REALLY take that shit seriously.

i do see what you're saying about these guys being "one-trick-ponies," but if that one trick can make you see into the future then that's a pretty good pony.

>> No.4817486

>>4817445
This.

OP confirmed for a dumbass.

>> No.4817488
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4817488

I want to see this but I'm a cheap bastard. Don't want to give my money for this documentary to iTunes or Youtoobs.

>> No.4817504

>>4817445
Seriously. I mean....this is guy is well known in Japan. Just for sushi alone.

Different cultures. Different strokes.

>> No.4817511

>>4817488

Holy shit man...it's the fucking internet. Pirate it.

>> No.4817527

>>4817445

Based on the documentary, the reason why Jiro's sushi is legendary is because the best rice and fish available in the world is sold exclusively to him. Anyone can be Jiro-quality if they have the same quality shit to work with. He'll take a ball of rice and put a piece of fish on it with a little wipe of sesame seed oil. That isn't some amazing dish only Jiro could prepare, that's extremely simple food that got Jiro 3 michelin stars because he has access to better ingredients than any other sushi chef

>> No.4817553

>>4817527
They even say in the documentary that Jiro is the only one who even uses that rice because of how difficult it is to work with.

goddamn I hate seeing this movie on ck all the time

>> No.4817567

>>4817504

Hell, that Fifty-One guy is know for what pop he drinks.

>> No.4817570

>>4817527

I think the point is that Jiro is unique in his refusal to cut corners and to insist on the best ingredients. In other words, his refusal to compromise even a little bit is what makes him special.

Frankly you could say the same thing about many top chefs. Thomas Keller, for example, uses simple cooking techniques and mostly traditional recipes. Like Jiro though, he insists on the best possible ingredients, even going so far as to work with the local farmers to grow exactly what veggies he wants.

>> No.4817613
File: 10 KB, 222x265, Cave Johnson.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
4817613

>>4817553

>buying into ridiculous japanese mysticism

And the child-King Arthur was the only person able to pull the sword from the stone

>> No.4817624

>>4817527

I dont think you know why he got 3 Michelin stars. Most of it was due to quality, meaning consistency. A lot of restaurants that are good has can hit or miss, I think what separates good from great is largely consistency.

>> No.4817629

>>4817488
NetFlix has it

>> No.4817631

>>4817624

Technically it wasn't even Jiro that got the stars, the meal that earned him the stars was made entirely by his son, who has something like 40 years less experience than him. Anyone can do what Jiro does when they have the same materials as him

>> No.4817633

y'all are posting in an obvious troll thread.

shame on you.

>> No.4817632

>>4817377
>fastly
also, you missed the point. First, his sons were amazing but got no love, and second, the improvement came in increments-ie knowing which precise degree to slice at, and precisely how to do each step in rice. incrementally better forever.

>> No.4817636

He's no Cooking with Dog lady!

>> No.4817672

>>4817633
>Hur he doesn't praise my grorious Japanese sushi master shameful dispray must be a troll

Cold. Hard. Facts. Its the material, not the technique.

>> No.4817682

>>4817672
not just confirmed for not eating sushi, but confirmed for having no idea what sort of skill and technique goes into any dish produced at a home or restaurant without a drive through window.

>> No.4817686

>>4817377
>Why are _____ respected at all?

Because they are doing something that other people don't do or suck at doing.

>> No.4817689

>>4817672

He is the one who sources the ingredients.

>> No.4817690

>>4817682
Nice assumptions. You just LOST.

>> No.4817691

>>4817682
Seconding this sentiment, validating this statement, and I have your back, anon.

>> No.4817693

>>4817689
Your point? Theres nothing 'skillful' about throwing money at someone to give you their best ingredients.

>> No.4817696

>>4817682

>skill and technique

>>grab ball of rice, put piece of fish on it, serve to baka gaijin

What a master!

>> No.4817699

Not going to lie, I thought the headline said JIDF dreams of sushi

>> No.4817700

>>4817690
The way you talked implied it. It is like grizzled old mechanics making fun of the n00b mechanic who thinks he knows it all by pulling the muffler bearing or blinker fluid joke on him. The way you talk shows your lack of understanding, inexperience, and lack of worldly upbringing.

>> No.4817701

>>4817696
I know its bullshit, but I wouldn't go so far as to put it like that. Theres technique involved, but its nothing that requires years.

>> No.4817702

>>4817699
You probably need to get a new /pol/scription for your glasses.

>> No.4817705

>>4817700
The way you talk implies that you fall prey to the old issue of 'appeal to authority' without questioning the methods behind their actions. You just hear that someone is a master at something and you throw praise and respect.

>> No.4817710

>>4817705
There is more than one anon talking against you ITT. I've not said anything about your subject. I just pointed out that you obviously don't have a clue about which you speak.

>> No.4817708

Still posting in a troll thread. It's like you guys want to ruin this fucking board.

>> No.4817712

>>4817710
I do though.

>> No.4817713

>>4817708
Hide the thread and/or report it.

>> No.4817721

>>4817712
Then you are merely trolling.

>> No.4817722

>>4817713
Enjoy your ban because you reported an on topic thread.

>> No.4817727

>>4817722
He didn't say that he actually reported the thread.

>> No.4817731

>>4817722
I didn't report the thread. I told the other guy to report and/or hide the thread. If something is a problem you simply hide it or report it, depending on what is appropriate. You should not sit around and complain about it.

>> No.4817733

>>4817377
>one trick pony

Anon, let me tell you the story about a dog and a fox. There once was a dog who practices 1 kick 1000 times; likewise there was a fox who practice 1000 other techniques only 1 time.

The fight ensued and the dog won.

>> No.4817753

>>4817693

There's skill involved in knowing which ingredients are the best and seeking them out. Besides that he's past the point where he has to appeal to popular taste, he is a taste maker. He defines which ingredients are the best.

>> No.4817756

>>4817733

That would be bullshit. If the fox knew 1000 ways to counter the dog's one attack, the fox would win

>> No.4817760

>>4817756

He knew 1000 ways but couldnt do any of them right.

>> No.4817764

>>4817756
Read 1000 words in Japanese once and see how much you retain during a Japanese spelling bee.

>> No.4817768

>>4817760

What does that apply to then? Other chefs don't actually learn how to do any of the styles and techniques they know of?

>> No.4817769

>>4817764

I'd still retain more of those words than the guy who only knows one word but knows it "really well"

>> No.4817773

>>4817756
This post is certainly the OP.

>> No.4817780

>>4817769
Yeah, but, you'd not know how to properly pronounce those words so that they say mean things. Yet, the person with only one word would know all the different stresses, inflections, and ways to say it to mean different things. That's how Asian languages work.

>> No.4817781

>>4817780
also all language...

>> No.4817802

>>4817781
Asian languages in particular. One word can mean 2 or more things that are not related very much just by how you say the word, even just the word by itself. That is why you must hit the right audible tone as you say it, much like singing a note of music.

>> No.4817816

>>4817780

Drop a jap who knows one English word strongly into the US and drop an American who loosely knows 1000 Japanese words into Japan and see who communicates better

>> No.4817836

>>4817816
read once =/= loosely

>> No.4817838

>>4817802
... except in Cambodia, Indonesia, Malaysia, Japan, Korea, Mongolia, the Philippines and the other Asian countries that don't speak tonal languages.
Tonal: all Chinese varieties/dialects, all Thai varieties/dialects (including Shan and Lao), Burmese, Hmong and Viet.
Not tonal: everything the fuck else.

>> No.4817850

>>4817816
Eh, that's not quite realistic. There are tons of English words used in modern everyday Japanese now. But, not many Japanese words used in modern everyday English.

>> No.4817859

>>4817838
I was actually pulling the mechanic joke because Japanese isn't a tonal language. If you are >>4817690 then you saw through my ruse. If not then I think I've solidly shown that the OP is a troll or is one who does not know what he is talking about. At least to myself.

>> No.4817867

>>4817836

Compare Gordon Ramsay to Jiro. There's no one dish Gordon dedicated his career to, but he travels the world spending a few days at a time learning different styles of cooking. Gordon is a much more versatile chef who truly understands food, while Jiro is some jap who puts fish on rice and can't do anything else.

Hell, Gordon's even learned to make sushi before, and within an hour of beind told what to do, he still made a restaurant-quality roll

>> No.4817874

>>4817377
The fuckers are generally stupidly amazing with their knife skills.

>> No.4817877

>>4817867
Gordon is a finger painter.
Jiro is a Michelangelo.

>> No.4817878
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4817878

>>4817877

>> No.4817947

>know nothing about cooking or a shitty line cook at best
>this renowned chef doesnt deserve all the praise because of _______

>> No.4817970

>>4817947

>chef

He doesn't even COOK, his fish is fucking RAW

>> No.4817984
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4817984

>>4817970
I don't think this thread is for me anymore. Good day.

>> No.4817990

>>4817970

welp Im out.

>> No.4818530

Jiro seems borderline autistic, and his sons seem to have a deep-seated resentment for the man, and rightly so.

>I let my sons finish high school, and afterwards persuaded them to give up their dreams and join me in my restaurant.

>> No.4818603
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4818603

>>4817756

>> No.4818616

>>4817527
He only gets that quality of ingredient because the vendors refuse to sell it to anyone but him. At least his rice guy is that way.

>> No.4818619

>>4817867
Yeah, thanks for showing us you know nothing about Gordon Ramsay.

There is one dish he has dedicated his career to perfecting: the beef wellington.

Look, at the uppermost echelons of human performance, you have a high level of specialization. It's like in academia: every year you advance, your studies become more and more narrow until the point where you're writing a few hundred pages on one single, highly specific topic.

But we're even missing the point talking about dishes here because that is not really what earns either Hiro or Ramsay credit: it's their technique.

Say what you want about the complexity of the actual dish of sushi, but fuck all if the techniques used to create it are not some of the more complex in all of cooking. Mastery of them is amazingly and stupidly difficult. Hell, you can even argue it is a waste, but then these are the same people who have retardedly elaborate tea ceremonies.

>> No.4818705

>>4817631
>his son who was probably trained from the day he could walk to make daddies sushi
>"anyone"

>> No.4818743

Okay I didn't bother reading this whole thread, so theres a big chance somebody already said what Im saying now

But the art of sushi is really 80% finding the right ingredients, which is actually pretty hard, especially when we are talking raw fish.
Next is keeping everything fresh, which again, is hard, this is raw fish and it spoils super easily, this is why making it fast and hardly touching it is super important. Ofcourse you should never touch food to much, but if i fondle a pork steak you can steal eat it just fine when its prepared, fish gets gross when it gets too warm even by finger heat.
So yes, being fast is probably the most important step in sushi making besides picking out ingridients.
Next comes presentation.

But with this said, I do think its overhyped yes.
It's a hard art, but hardly the hardest (hehe I said hard so many times) in the industry and overhyped to extreme. Its delicious yes, and sushi from people like jiros are expensive because of fucking expensive ingredients.
But calling it god food is a bit overkill.

In japan they have a whole different view on honor and respect, and the main reason Jiro is seen as sushi God IS because of his experience and age.

So in conclusion, yes it is a fine art, but yes, this documentary is defiently overhyping.
Eat your sushi or dont, and just leave it be.

>> No.4818756

>>4818743
tl;dr

>> No.4818758

>>4817636
>
HEAR HEAR
ALL HAIL CHEF-SAN AND FRANCIS

>> No.4818780

>>4818743
>hard to find ingredients for sushi
>Japan
every supermarket has fish for sashimi. Jiro fucking lives in Tokyo where he has access to the tsukiji fish market. Its not fucking hard. Jiro is mainly famous around the Tokyo area. If you ask someone from out of the area, they most likely won't know who Jiro is. If you can read Japanese, you'll find that many reviewers ask why it costs 30,000 yen for over-vinegared sushi.

>> No.4818786

>Dude spends his whole life dedicatet to perfect his work
>I could do that too if you gave me the ingredients!!1

>> No.4818806
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4818806

>>4817377

OP is most likely a misogynist shitlord

>> No.4818821
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4818821

Name one sushi variety better than this

Protip:You can't

>> No.4818828

>>4818821
Food of the gods.
Nothing beats salted and pickled buds

>> No.4818838

>>4817445
I agree with you, but I also feel most people would not have a developed palate to be able to enjoy it
even if they could afford it.
>watched movie
Silly giggling women and businessmen eating
Restaurant critic:
This is the best sushi in the world
>Oh really ha haha hahaha

>> No.4818844

>>4817696
You are forgetting the cherry blossoms and jap farts carried by the wind to give it magical zing.

>> No.4818847

>>4817377
You can say the same thing about any chef in any cuisine

>> No.4818849

>>4817733
Let me tell you a story about two restaurants,
One restaurant made sushi 1000 times
The other made dozens of different dishes.
When people wanted sushi they went to the sushi place,
When they wanted something else, they went somewhere else.
>but Jiro's was quaint and cute
There is a robot right now that can prepare sushi

>> No.4818858

>>4818849

Why are you surprised that sushi robots exist?

>> No.4818912

>>4818806
But, that's just a joke review.

>> No.4819385 [DELETED] 

>>4818849
>>4818786

You people are putting too much stake in the time/experience part. There is a plataeu, and doing something a billion times may make it any better than doing it a thousand times. A restaurant that does many things may be able to do a hundred dishes exactly as well as the sushi chef can make his sushi, because making one dish for your entire life doesn't mean continued progress into infinite, it just means you're wasting a bunch of time doing some shit you already know how to do over and over forever instead of attempting anything else and expanding your knowledge of food at a fundemental level

>> No.4819387

>>4818849
>>4818786

You people are putting too much stake in the time/experience part. There is a plataeu, and doing something a billion times may not make it any better than doing it a thousand times. A restaurant that does many things may be able to do a hundred dishes exactly as well as the sushi chef can make his sushi, because making one dish for your entire life doesn't mean continued progress into infinite, it just means you're wasting a bunch of time doing some shit you already know how to do over and over forever instead of attempting anything else and expanding your knowledge of food at a fundemental level

Look at his sons. They make sushi indistinguishable from Jiro's and they're half his age

>> No.4819388

>>4818806
This made me laugh. I can't believe people took this review seriously.

>> No.4819433

>>4817377
So Mcdonalds burger flipper is the best burger maker? cuz fastest made burgers.

>> No.4819461

>>4819387
/thread

>> No.4819468

>>4819388
There's a Naked Gun-esque procedural cop comedy programme that airs in the UK. Some viewers thought it was serious. They were confused by the character Detective Inspector Cardboard Cutout.

>> No.4819473

>>4819468
Oh, and I mention this, basically, to call attention to the stupidity of some people. Some people... are just dumb.

>> No.4819476

>$300+ for a 19 minute meal

>> No.4819772

>>4817696
You can simplify any dish like that. Are you saying theres no good food

>Take steak, grill it, serve to white people
>Take some flour and water, mix it, bake it, serve it to white people

>> No.4819777

>>4819387
>I don't know anything. No really, I don't.

I'm not saying you're 100% wrong, but you're far more wrong than you're right.

>> No.4819920

>>4819777


care to explain that or are you just a ragehard fanboi

>> No.4819939

simplicity is always deceptive when it comes to cooking. the simpler something is the easier it is to find fault in it, so to make something that is the absolute best, the platonic ideal, is remarkable.

i think it's good that sushi has this culture of reverence built around it. some indian guy on a street in kolkata who can bang out a bajillion balls of puffed dough filled with sour mashed potatoes a minute and completely nail it every time doesn't get the same respect and maybe he should.

although that respect shouldn't necessarily come in the form of a 300 dollar price tag.

>> No.4819947

>>4819388
I doubt anyone took it seriously, but I do believe that people could find it to be pretty fucking dumb.

>> No.4819951

>>4819939
It doesn't cost $300 because Jiro is a greedy cunt. It costs $300 because such high quality ingredients are insanely expensive. There's a reason why it's considered to be impressive for a Michelin starred restaurant to make a profit.

>> No.4819955

Having actually had the pleasure to eat the meals of some of Japan's best chefs, I feel I can actually help weigh in at this debate.

Presentation and Texture are probably the most important aspects Japanese chefs focus on in cooking. "Taste" of course maters, but the more you can make your tongue FEEL a subtle flavor over tasting it, is the goal.

"Edo Style" sushi rolls are not the most popular form, and very, very well prepared rice is an amazing treat. Someone who is able to not only prepare basic ingredients to achieve this, but also communicate with sellers to have access to quality items that lend to this idea is rare.

Food culture in Japan is treated very differently than we do here. The palatte of a normal Japanese person can taste far more subtle aspects on a plate compared to an American. This doesn't make one better than the other, it's just different.

He is one chef whom embodies best their culinary standard. That's why he's famous.

>> No.4819956

>>4819951

>It doesn't cost $300 because Jiro is a greedy cunt. It costs $300 because such high quality ingredients are insanely expensive.

i know.

but their margins are still pretty high while turnover is low

>> No.4819966

>>4819947
I take it you didn't actually READ the comments to the review?

>> No.4819967

>>4819966
No, because they weren't posted here, and I didn't feel like going out of my way to find the page so that I could read the comments to a dumb joke review.

>> No.4819970

My friend has eaten at many michelin star restaurants, and he said Jiro's son's place was the best meal he's ever eaten

>> No.4819971

>>4817377
Ive eaten allot of sushi, as I live in LA and have a ton of friends and family that are obsessive about it.

I dont understand it at all. You pay a shit ton for food that not only doesn't fill you up, but half the time either doesn't have a taste (besides what sauce you use) or tastes like seaweed and raw fish. And im sorry, no, raw fish doesn't taste good wtf is wrong with you.

>> No.4819968

>>4819967
Then why did you doubt some people took it seriously?

>> No.4819976

>>4819971
> And im sorry, no, raw fish doesn't taste good wtf is wrong with you.

i wasted my time reading your comment (shouldve stopped after the 'doesnt fill you up' part i guess) and then i got to that

well NO SHIT you don't like sushi

>> No.4819979

>>4819968
I figured that the "joke" was obvious enough, and generally joke reviews on Amazon are pretty popular. However, in this case the joke was a really stupid jab at feminism.

>> No.4819982

>>4819971
>rice
>not filling

>> No.4819985

>>4819955
Also forgot to add, this is why if you watch Iron Chef Japan, the judges at least a few times talk about plates not being "traditionally Japanese" enough. It's such a dumb complaint until you really change your diet to their standard, and experience what they're comparing meals to.

>>4819971
A solid 0/10

>> No.4819992

>>4819979
Yeah, man. Why can't everything be obvious without looking at them first?

>> No.4819994

>>4817570
>even going so far as to work with the local farmers to grow exactly what veggies he wants.

That's not really very far at all. There are tons and tons of restaurants with their own farms.

>> No.4820000

In Japan, the first thing you do is eat with your eyes so presentation is important.

>> No.4820023

>>4819976
i love fish, and enjoy some tempura style 'sushi', and even the cooked sushi.
it just makes it taste so much better.
>eating things raw
>not being cave people
pick one

>> No.4820037

>>4820023

i'm not gonna bitch you out for not liking raw fish dude, to each his own

but cavemen are the guys who invented cooking

>> No.4820311

>>4820037
>cavemen

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caveman

>> No.4820387

>>4820311

i'm aware.

>> No.4820862

ONRI KUNG FU LICE MASTER CAN BOIL LICE AFTER 40 YEARS OF LICE BOILING EXPELIENCE

>WOW LOOK AT THIS RICE
>IT'S SO HARD TO COOK ONLY JIRO CAN
>WELL HERE WE COOK OUR RICE
>JUST BOIL IT PRESSURIZED

>> No.4820874

>>4819468
>Detective Inspector Cardboard Cutout

Man, and I thought people here in Murrkkka were idiots. Not only is CARDBOARD CUTOUT clearly a giveaway it's comedy, the full title and name are an acronym: DICC, which obviously is another joke layered in because they're also called "dicks". Or, they were in the 40s, no idea if they still are.

>> No.4820893

>>4820023
I guess you love well done steak then.

>> No.4821075

>>4820862
The way he boiled his rice is no different from any other traditional chef. It's a lot of bullshit and pretending, a very Japanese thing to do. It's kind of like how every town in Japan is most famous for something (for example many towns claim to be most famous for their rice, cabbage, carrots, bell peppers etc, but they don't taste different from any other town's)

>>4819985
No, its a pretty dumb complaint. If its not traditionally Japanese, it probably means its not sweet enough or its too spicy. A palate of a normal Japanese person can't tell the difference between basil and oregano. They can tell that they prefer cuts of meat and fish with higher fat content though. It probably is still much better than the average American palate though.

>> No.4821078
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4821078

>>4821075
>It's kind of like how every town in Japan is most famous for something (for example many towns claim to be most famous for their rice, cabbage, carrots, bell peppers etc, but they don't taste different from any other town's)

Weeb much? You realize just about every shitty agricultural community everywhere in the world does this?

>> No.4821091

>>4821078
>calls someone else a weeb
>tries to defend Japan's "we're famous for _______ " attitude
k.

>> No.4821190

>>4821091
Doesn't look like a defense to me. Just an obvious observation. Also, the use of "weeb" implies contempt for people who like Japanese culture.