/ck/ - Food & Cooking

[Anonymous No.16411125]

I'm trying to recreate the tomato sauce my favorite Italian restaurant serves with their chicken parmesan and it's fucking frustrating
The chicken, the breading, and the cheese on top are all good quality but nothing exceptional. The sauce is what carries the dish. It's bright, salty, and deeply savory (the big mystery). They coat the entire cutlet in the sauce before topping with cheese and broiling, trading crispiness for making each bite packed with flavor. Seems weird at first but with that sauce, it works.
I tried to recreate the sauce and tried it side by side with leftovers from the restaurant. I combined olive oil, 5 cloves of garlic, 1 lb crushed cherry tomato, white wine salt pepper and basil to make mine. I added a fair amount of parmesan too to try and capture that salty/savory dynamic. The results? I didn't even come close. My sauce wasn't flavorless by any means but it tasted flat when compared to the restaurant's sauce. There's that savory backbone I can't put my finger on. I don't think it's just msg cause I know what that tastes like, plus they're a fancy Italian place so I doubt they'd rely on it.
My current theories for what they're doing are:
1) Starting the sauce in the fry oil after the cutlets are done.
2) Some technique involving making the sauce in advance to develop the flavors that I don't understand.

So now that I'm done blogposting, are there any tomato sauce wizards here who have tips to share on making a super flavorful/savory sauce

[Anonymous No.16411127]

>>16411125
butter

[Anonymous No.16411131]

anchovy

[Anonymous No.16411150]

>>16411131
Might be this

[Anonymous No.16411195]

The secret ingredient is love :)

[Anonymous No.16411215]

>>16411125
ask for the recipe qs2a8

[Anonymous No.16411304]

>>16411127
50/50 butter and olive oil?

>>16411131
At what point in the cooking would I add anchovy?

[Anonymous No.16411326]

>>16411125
Can you try and describe the flavor profile in more detail?

[Anonymous No.16411328]

>>16411304
It's definitely anchovies, any good spaghetti sauce with a deep savoury flavour has anchovies. Add them early in the cook.

[Anonymous No.16411356]

>>16411125
Could be using chopped capers and red wine vinegar sauce

[Anonymous No.16411378]

Pork. They add ground pork sausage and/or pork riblets while simmering the sauce. It will take your sauce to the next level of savory and delicious.

[Anonymous No.16411391]

>>16411125
>Starting the sauce in the fry oil after the cutlets are done
this has to be it honestly. restaurants accomplish delicious food by being unhealthy as shit, and this method sounds about right

[Anonymous No.16411393]

>>16411326
Yeah, I am not very good at communicating it. The savory note is almost reminiscent of buttered toast, but the texture doesn't suggest there's any bread in it. It's aggressively salty, in a good way. Whether this is due to salt (duh) or salty ingredients such as anchovy/parmesan, I have no idea. There is some acidity to the sauce as well, with just a touch of sweetness to balance it out. Is this just expertly cooked tomato with a pinch of sugar? Or did they add something else acidic like wine? I don't taste red wine in there, which is what made me try white wine. It didn't taste quite right, but there's so many factors it's hard to tell if that's to blame. Then we have all of the intricacies of herbs and seasoning that I am woefully unskilled at sussing out. I dunno man, it's hard.

[Anonymous No.16411835]

>savory
MSG my man, makes everything top quality in flavor

[Anonymous No.16411848]

>>16411125
Recently found out that the manager who ran a local pizza place for like 12 years would urinate into the sauce because he thought it was funny. It was a really good pizza place.

Maybe you should try something like that?

[Anonymous No.16411851]

>>16411393
Grab some Pomi if you're in the US or if they sell it in your country and start from there, think of the Pomi as a blank canvas. You mention its sweet and acidic, maybe its lemon juice and sugar, or instead of sugar onions for sweetness. For savory try SOY SAUCE with msg or some shit believe it or not, or pecorino romano or parmesan cheese for salt/natural msg.

[Anonymous No.16411857]

Try using mirepoix, not just garlic

[Anonymous No.16411859]

>>16411393
It's not wine, wine can change the flavors in hundreds of thousands of ways depending on the wine. It's not something a good restaurant relies on.

I use apple vinegar a lot with a pinch of sugar.

[Anonymous No.16411863]

>>16411859
Also if you are using basil, never use dried basil it tastes like shit. Use fresh basil.

[Anonymous No.16411927]

Does anyone have experience with making the sauce a day in advance or something like that? Does it make the flavor better?

[Anonymous No.16411943]

>>16411927
it's always better the next day anon

same with soups and stews

[Anonymous No.16411966]

>>16411125
Worcestershire

[Anonymous No.16411988]

>>16411125
Anon, have you tried Marcella Hazan's tomato sauce recipe as a starting point?
That sauce is incredible smooth and savory when done right. A lot of restaurants let the sauce simmer with some pork bones and adding anchovies or any other source of MSG is never wrong.

[Anonymous No.16411993]

[Anonymous No.16411994]

pork bones

[Anonymous No.16412009]

Go to an Asian store (or Amazon) and get a bottle of this.
It’s basically “salty as fuck essence of anchovy”, and does wonders for tomato sauce, or anywhere else you’d add anchovy as an flavoring ingredient.

[Anonymous No.16412029]

Redpill me on cooking time. Does it only get better simmered for hours? Or is there an optimal time for best tomato flavor?

[Anonymous No.16412037]

>>16411943
This, I notice it especially when I make soups from scratch, it just tastes a lot better the next day. Doesn't matter if it's bean or chicken soup, the next day it just tastes better, especially with them BEANS

[Anonymous No.16412050]

>>16411125
Oyster sauce or blended chicken livers?

[Anonymous No.16412051]

>>16411988
I will try making that as a starting point, thanks

[Anonymous No.16412081]

>>16411125
>salty/savory dynamic
Soy sauce or liquid aminos?
>>16411393
Try lemon juice.
>>16411863
Personally, I think it's the other way around. The fresh stuff has a weird taste to it. Though, I only think that with basil and nothing else.

[Anonymous No.16412243]

You should be using butter.

[Anonymous No.16412308]

>>16412029
It depends on your goals. For example, are you using any fresh tomato? Might want to go for an hour to break down those fibery parts more. I make a “quick” sauce that is one large san marzano can (whole tomatoes), half an onion (just cut in half and peeled), a stick-ish (6-8 tbs) of salted butter, and a few anchovies. It takes about 50 minutes simmering uncovered for there to be no detectable butter or anchovy flavor. Which again is the goal, however long it takes to achieve some desired end result.

So I say if you have some goal in mind (thicken, incorporate flavors, break down fibery parts, etc) go as long as you need, noting at the end time used for future planning purposes, but there’s no point in just meme simmering something for too long just because some greaser from NJ says his grandma did it that way.

[Anonymous No.16412347]

You can also add cheese. Small amounts will melt away and not be visible.

[Anonymous No.16412350]

>>16412308
I was thinking it might be desirable in some cases to have a lightly cooked sauce, preserving the natural acidity of the tomato. Or is that just a meme?

[Anonymous No.16412391]

>>16412350
meme for sure

[Anonymous No.16412399]

>>16412350
Absolutely. There’s even a lot of popular no-cook/just heat through sauces. In the general case, though, I usually want a complex sauce where people cannot easily identify exactly what ingredients were used, just that they like it. To me, no-cook/heated through sauces taste a bit one dimensional. I’d rather adjust acidity directly (sherry vinegar is my favorite) rather than sacrifice complexity.

Actually, my quick sauce above to me is one dimensional because it lacks the fresh tomato taste. My non-quick recipe when good tomatoes are available is to skin, squeeze out seeds, and dice up a nice large ripe heirloom tomato and fry it for a bit in s few tbs of olive oil. When it starts getting a nice fond, make the quick sauce on top of it, scraping up the bottom. To me that captures the whole tomato range of flavors.

[Anonymous No.16412549]

sugar, tomato paste, anchovy paste/msg, extra butter/oil, extra garlic (use fresh AND powder)
>purée 28oz can san marzano tomatoes with basil added
>sauté 5 cloves garlic, 1/8 tsp anchovy paste, and 1 shallot in 2tbsp olive oil and a knob of butter for about 1 minute
>add puréed tomatoes, 1 small can of tomato paste, 1 tsp oregano, 1/4 tsp marjoram, 1/2 tbsp sugar, a liberal shake of garlic powder and some onion powder, a small sprinkle of chili pepper flakes (gochugaru is better than the western ones for this,) mix well
>simmer for about an hour
>add a meat while simmering if you choose (meatballs, sausage, etc)
>add salt and pepper to taste
>cook pasta al dente, reserve some pasta water
>add a small amount of pasta water to the sauce so it's not too thick and adheres well to the pasta
>serve over the pasta and garnish with parmesan or pecorino romano and fresh parsley

[Anonymous No.16412556]

>>16411125
Protip: add like half a tablespoon of tomato paste before simmering it to get that "savory" flavor you're looking for.

[Anonymous No.16412571]

>>16412549
>>16412556
These two got it. Most people assume tomato paste is for texture but it's basically a can of tasty MSG.

[Anonymous No.16412679]

>>16411125
Start here.

[Anonymous No.16412688]

If it’s a place you frequent you can usually just ask the chef and they’ll gladly tell you.

[Anonymous No.16412705]

>>16412688
fuck faggots like you.

>hurr you better tell me exactly how you make all of the proprietary things that earn you your living

fuck off faggot

[Anonymous No.16412714]

>>16411125
Here's the real truth. FYI my moms family owns a very successful italian restaurant in the bronx, ny and I've seen them make the house sauce a number of times.

1 tsp of anchovy paste and 1 tbsp of tomato paste for every 2 cans of tomatoes. Absolutely brings the savoryness of the sauce to a whole other level. You can add butter but IMO trust me you don't even need it if you follow this measurement.

You are welcome

[Anonymous No.16412718]

>>16412688
it won't taste the same, nobody's going to admit they urinate in the sauce anon.

[Anonymous No.16412730]

>>16412714
those ratios actually sound pretty legit. thanks for sharing.

the bronx has incredible italian food.

[Anonymous No.16412782]

>>16411125
OP, my lasagna is amazing. I never use fresh tomatoes.
Formula for the perfect amount for a lasagna pan:
1 large can of crushed in puree
1 small can of low sodium sauce
1 small can of tomato paste

Start with olive oil and brown 1/2 pound of crumbled italian sausage links with 1lb ground sirloin, until browned. I add a chopped onion, sometimes bell pepper but I have an allergic relative, grr, 3-5 cloves of garlic. Mushrooms are umami, so use them. Remove any excess grease if it renders too much. Crank up the heat. I add the can of tomato paste first and get it good and warmed through, supposed to help flavor. Good time to use some squeeze anchovy paste if using. Deglaze with 1/4 cup of wine, just to lift up the fond. Then add the crushed tomatoes and tomato sauce, add an italian blend. Blend, reduce to simmer, cover til bubbling and then uncover.
You can boil noodles, flavor the ricotta with parsley, parm and egg, all while it reduces and simmers.

This sauce has the basil, oregano flavors becuase I add them, some blends include savory and rosemary, so use those. But, overall, the pork has a bit of fennel in it, and adds a nice nuance.

[Anonymous No.16412793]

>>16412705
Most chefs are happy to share their recipes. I can tell you’ve never worked in a kitchen. It’s not like some trade secrets man it’s a recipe. Go touch grass you fucking loser.

[Anonymous No.16412795]

>>16411125
They added a huge amount of butter, parmesan, tomato paste and probably some MSG as well. IF you add these to a sauce it will be amazing but far too unhealthy for regular consumption.

[Anonymous No.16412809]

>>16411304
desu i like to add a little olive oil at the start and add the butter at the end of the cooking. i like to freeze it so it emulsifies better. i do about two tablespoons for each big can of tomatoes

[Anonymous No.16412843]

A little poopie
A little pissy
Give it a stir

[Anonymous No.16412962]

My money is on the following: marrow (likely pork), prosciutto bone added to simmering pot, aged cheese rinds or a combination of all three.

[Anonymous No.16412973]

>>16411125
you can add some fish sauce

[Anonymous No.16413021]

>>16412009
I was gonna say try a little fish sauce, so I'll just second this guy.

[Anonymous No.16413070]

>>16412679
This, almost certainly. Perhaps they add a bit of this or that, but it starts with a number 10 can of processed sauce.

[Anonymous No.16413092]

>>16411125
Fresh basil
Anchovy paste
Butter

[Anonymous No.16413113]

>>16411125
>crushed cherry tomato
Just give up, OP

[Anonymous No.16413252]

>>16413113
We all start somewhere

[Anonymous No.16413271]

Parmesan rind, use it like a bay leaf

[Anonymous No.16413273]

[Anonymous No.16413389]

>>16412549
>>16412556
>>16412571
Imagine missing the most important ingredient before posting on 4chins

[Anonymous No.16413401]

>>16413273
Okay Marco Pierre White

[Anonymous No.16413406]

>>16413271
These can grant you wishes. A sicilian midget told me.

[Anonymous No.16413407]

>reduce the sauce for a few hours
>add a couple squares of baker's chocolate

[Anonymous No.16413426]

>>16413406
Nobody who is either a Sicilian or a midget knows how wishes can be granted .

[Anonymous No.16413663]

>>16413426
D A M N

[Anonymous No.16413699]

Butter, anchovies and tomato paste.

[Anonymous No.16413741]

>>16411125
>mirepoix (sautéed carrot, onion and celery)
>soy sauce/marmite/vegemite
>anchovies/bonito flake/fish sauce/oyster sauce
>msg
>Tomato paste
>bones/bovril/stock concentrate
And if you really feel fancy
>demi glace

Look them up and stick them in your sauce til you get something you're happy with

[Anonymous No.16413809]

>>16413426
What about an Irish midget?

[Anonymous No.16414337]

>>16413809
Yea but they don't do it for free.

>>16411125
Some points I do agree with >>16413741 mirepoix as a base.

Olive oil lots of it, Slow medium heat cooked onion, don't char them. 20 minutes. Add butter, carrots another 10 minutes. High heat add tomatopaste. 2 Minutes, back to medium. Add your peeled de-cored tomatos. Lots of them. Now add salt and a bay leaf. Cook for another 3 hours on low heat. Stir while doing so. Crush the tomatos every now and then. Add crushed garlic. Remove bay leaf.

There you go now you have your base tomato sauce that you can use on anything.

You start from here. Now figure out what the seasoning is.

[Anonymous No.16414471]

anyone know how to make a tomato sauce that's more fresh? A sicilian place in brooklyn I grew up going to has a standard farfalle with tomato sauce pasta of the day on every saturday and the sauce has always been my favorite. From what I can tell, it's NOT the kind of sauce that's been simmered for hours, and it has a much higher quantity of oil in it and with a fuckton of garlic that's only been softened, not browned. Closest I've gotten to approximating it is by just using Pomi and adding way more oil than I'd normally think to use and adding minced garlic to the pot without simmering it

[Anonymous No.16414714]

>>16411857
mirepoix and cut the sugar, the carrots add sweetness

[Anonymous No.16414739]

>>16411125
No idea what your restaurant uses, but the best tomato sauce recipe is by Marcella Hazan. The recipe is simple, 1 28-ounce can of San Marzano plum tomatoes, 1/4 lb butter of butter, one medium yellow onion peeled & cut in half, a pinch of salt and 1/4 teaspoon granulated sugar.

Place all this in a saucepan over a medium heat and cook for 45 minutes stirring occasionally and breaking up the tomatoes with a wooden spoon.

Simple but amazing.

[Anonymous No.16414746]

>>16411851
Pomi is so based

[Anonymous No.16414749]

>>16411125
They probably cook meats in the sauce when they make it.

[Anonymous No.16414758]

>>16411125
Just ask for the recipe, jesus christ, millenials are insecure faggots...

[Anonymous No.16414783]

>>16412350
Lightly cooked tomato sauces can be very good. See: pizza sauce, raw when it goes on the pie, cooked for like 90 seconds

[Anonymous No.16414785]

>>16411131
surprised one of you retards figured it out so quickly

[Anonymous No.16414790]

>>16414758
Yes, every restaurant has the servers carry around printouts of every recipe on the menu in case a customer asks… you really have a confused, sheltered interpretation of how the world works, don’t you?

[Anonymous No.16414806]

>>16411125
The answer is probably anchovies and tomato paste.

[Anonymous No.16414818]

>>16411391
>unhealthy as shit
How is it unhealthy to use the grease of the meat as base for the sauce?

[Anonymous No.16414978]

So I’m assuming tomato paste should always be there. Then I pick one of the following for extra umami:
Anchovy paste
Fish sauce
Worcestershire
Soy sauce

Is that about right?

[Anonymous No.16414980]

>>16414978
I'd be surprised if they don't use red wine in the sauce too

[Anonymous No.16415001]

>>16414980
Doesn’t taste like it. And as another anon said, wine’s flavor profile is inconsistent, and this sauce tastes the same every time. Makes sense to me

[Anonymous No.16415006]

>>16411328
In restaurants? Are you sure this is common practice?

I like anchovies but I find this hard to believe. Butter, sugar, pork fat, parmesan, all of this seems more likely.

[Anonymous No.16415135]

>>16411125
Roasted garlic. Red wine. San Marzano tomatoes. Just off the top of my head.
>>16411378
This as well. Friend of the family, his dad would use a pork shoulder in his gravy.

[Anonymous No.16415170]

>>16411125
My secret ingredient in tomato sauce is citric acid. You don’t need a lot and even just a bit too much can spoil the recipe but it adds a depth of flavor that homemade sauces typically lack.

Citric acid by itself tastes like pure sour candy powder, but used in correct proportions it makes tomato sauce tangy, which is in stark contrast to all of the savory herbs and spices that people tend to murder sauces in for perceived mythical flavors.

[Anonymous No.16415190]

>>16415170
You've heard of vinegar right

[Anonymous No.16415198]

>>16411125
Get some canned demi-glace and add a few tablespoons to your pot.

[Anonymous No.16415306]

>>16415006
anchovies are fantastic in pasta dishes. you;d think it would add a fishy taste, but it doesnt if you add a reasonable amount. anchovy is an important ingredient in worcesterchire sauce as well, and as you probably know has no fishy taste

[Anonymous No.16415314]

>>16411393
>>16411859
maybe balsamic vinegar? is there a reason you choose apple vinegar specifically?

[Anonymous No.16415363]

>>16415190
>diluting your sauce
ngmi

[Anonymous No.16415390]

com'n 'ga

[Anonymous No.16415423]

>>16411125
>There's that savory backbone I can't put my finger on
stock or fish sauce/worchestershire/anchovies probably

[Anonymous No.16415447]

i say put worcestershire sauce and mustard in it. not enough that you can make out their flavour, but enough to give it that depth etc

[Anonymous No.16415516]

>>16415447
The secret ingredient...it's my Pitzman's!

[Anonymous No.16415725]

Some things off the top, a few have already been mentioned here but these are my infallibles:
>anchovy, already mentioned, adds salt and savory
>rind of pecorino or parm, cheaper than the actual cheese, imparts just as much flavor. again, it’s salt and savory
>anyone saying add sugar actually means carrots. minced, grated, even puréed if you’ve got a good enough processor, make a whole soffritto if you want to make real eye tally an food
>bones. veal, beef, and pork bones all work. roast 25min at 425F, then add to the sauce as early as you can
>if you’re putting meat in the sauce, fry it up quick in the pot you’re making the sauce in and use the sauce to deglaze.
Start early in the day too

[Anonymous No.16416302]

>>16413407
I've heard people do this to japanese curries as well. It sounds so odd, I'm incredibly hesitant to try it. though i do have a sauce going myself right now, i could take a little to the side, but all i have is cacao powder, does that work? would i need to add sugar or something else to recreate it better?

[Anonymous No.16416450]

>>16415516
unequivocally based

[Anonymous No.16416588]

the best tomato sauce I ever made was when I tried to braise a pot roast in some

[Anonymous No.16417899]

>>16414471
Perhaps:
>roast good tomatoes
>roast garlic
>mash together w/ good olive oil and whatever else, simmer briefly

[Anonymous No.16417906]

>>16412705
Yeah I'm sure the chef at OP's small town Italian restaurant is terrified that he's going to be out of a job and lose everything if he tells anon what he adds to the canned tomatoes for his sauce

[Anonymous No.16417907]

>>16415190
I used to love vinegar but I’ve basically completely replaced it with citric acid. As the other anon implied, vinegar dilutes your sauce and has a tinge of unpleasant yeasty smell/taste, whereas citric acid is a straightforward taste.