/ck/ - Food & Cooking

[Anonymous No.10962002]

can someone redpill me on kitchen knives?
why are some of them $500 and others $20?

[Anonymous No.10962050]

The $500 ones are basically the jiro of knives goyjin

[Anonymous No.10962301]

I bought a cheap kitchen knife in a grocery store some 16 years ago, for maybe $10. It's still my only kitchen knife and it's as good as ever. Takes a sharp edge and has never let me down. Expensive knives are a meme unless you're a professional chef and then you might really need a specialty knife.

[Anonymous No.10962306]

>>10962301
What for? To stab the cooks who don't do what you say?

[Anonymous No.10962339]

>>10962301
>I'm satisfied with Kia Rio, so anybody who drives something more expensive than mine is an idiot

[Anonymous No.10962353]

>>10962339
That's actually a good analogy. Unless you have a specialty need like long distance cross country driving or goods transportation, fancy cars are just empty pomposity. There's no point having an advanced capacity to break road rules.

[Anonymous No.10962371]

>>10962002
Not really my area of expertise, but here are a few considerations:
>visual aesthetics and status signalling
>ergonomics of the grip
>impact of the shape of the blade on technique
>wear patterns in stuff like Damascus steel can cause micro-serrations to form, improving the blade's functionality for some applications like tomatoes but worsening it for some like filleting fish
>hard steel alloys can often hold their sharpness better, but they're also more brittle and therefore more likely to chip and snap
>soft steel alloys are less likely to break and can usually be sharpened more easily, but require being sharpened more often

Most of these have pros and cons, and depend on what you plan to do with the knife.

[Anonymous No.10962633]

>>10962339
>be me
>share 04 Kia Rio with gf
>own two $200 knives

[Anonymous No.10962668]

>>10962371
Hot damn a real answer

[Anonymous No.10962683]

>>10962633
based

[Anonymous No.10962692]

Man, I bought a cheap literally 0,99 usd big knife from daiso in Japan (made in brazil) exactly 1 year ago, still sharper than some "professional" knives my mom own that can't cut a filet mignon while mine can still cut through salmon bones.

My neighbr got a 50 usd knife around as old as mine from a famous brand that can't cut shit either

I really don't know what makes some knives better than others or what keeps their edge, but I am sure something is wrong about overpriced ones, at least for an amateur cook.

[Anonymous No.10962982]

>>10962692
>I don't know how to sharpen but I've still got an opinion on knives
You should be a professional amazon reviewer

[Anonymous No.10962995]

>>10962002
A good kitchen knife costs more than a not-so-good kitchen knife.
There, redpilled.

I'm appalled you couldn't work that out yourself.
Pic maybe unrelated

[Anonymous No.10963060]

>>10962002

Cheap knives are made with cheap materials . Softer steel is cheap and also easy to work. Hard steel is expensive and hard to work.

Expensive knives stay sharp longer.

Also knife geometry is very important. Expensive knives have distal taper.

If you can sharpen your knives you don't need high end knife. You just need mid end knife with good thin geometry , nice comfortable handle with no gaps for dirt to accumulate.

If you have an expensive knife it will also need sharpening , but not so offten, so you can give it to a professional sharpener.

Also if you don't mind crushing the products with a dull knife you just do what 90% of the population do - buy 10$ knife and never sharpen it.

Also - pattern welded blades ("damascus") have exactly 1 purpose - to look pretty. Nothing else. The "microseration" thing is not true.

[Anonymous No.10963390]

>>10962002
>why are some of them $500 and others $20?
Why some cars are $10.000 and some are $750.000 when both can just get you from A to B? Or why are some houses $50.000 and some are $10.000.000 when both just keep the rain off your head?

[Anonymous No.10963397]

>>10962633
>be me
>drive 08 Fiat panda
>have sixty chef's knives probably worth around to $2.000

[Anonymous No.10963405]

>>10962371
You pay big bucks for exotic steels so you can bring them up to 65 or 66HRC but WITHOUT them getting brittle. that is the real difference between knife steels (although HRC is not the only determining factor)

[Anonymous No.10963418]

Expensive knives often have better design, made by experienced people who know what they are doing, they are made from much better and nicer to look at materials (blade steel and handle), they are manufactured in more difficult, more time consuming ways that improve cutting performance, tolerances are lower, heat treat is not rushed and botched, quality control is stricter, often they have collector's value etc etc...

[Anonymous No.10963428]

>>10963060
>The "microseration" thing is not true.
Wrong.
1. M. Sache, Damascus Steel, Myth, History, Technology Applications (Düsseldorf, Germany: Stahleisen, 1994).
2. B. Bronson, "The Making and Selling of Wootz," Archeomaterials, 1 (1986), pp. 13-51.
3. W. Rostoker and B. Bronson, "Pre-Industrial Iron, Its Technology and Ethnology," Archeomaterial Monograph No. 1 (Philadelphia, PA: Archaeomaterials, 1990), p. 127.
4. L.S. Figiel, On Damascus Steel (Atlantas, FL: Atlantas Arts Press, 1991).
5. C.S. Smith, A History of Metallography, Chapters 3 and 4 (Cambridge, MA: MIT Press, 1988).
6. C.S. Smith, "Damascus Steel," Science, 216 (1983), pp. 242-244.
7. J. Wadsworth and O.D. Sherby, "Damascus Steel-Making," Science, 216 (1983), pp. 328-330.
8. J.D. Verhoeven and D.T. Peterson, "What is Damascus Steel?" Mat. Char., 29 (1992), pp. 355-341.
9. M. Breant, "Description of a Process for Making Damasked Steel," Annals of Philosophy, 8 (1824), pp. 267-271.
10. P. Anossoff and O. Bulatakh, Gornyj Journal (2) (1841), pp. 157-318.
11. N.T. Belaiew, "Uber Damast," Metallurgie, 8 (1911), pp. 449-456; "Damast, seine Struktur und Eigenschaften," Metallurgie, 8 (1911), pp. 699-704; "Damascene Steel," J. Iron and Steel Inst., 97 (1918), pp. 417-439.
12. J. Wadsworth and O.D. Sherby, "On the Bulat-Damascus Steel Revisited," Prog. Mat. Sci., 25 (1980), pp. 35-68.
13. B. Zschokke, "Du Damasse et des Lames de Damas," Rev. Met., 21 (1924), pp. 635-669.
14. J.D. Verhoeven and A.H. Pendray, "The Mystery of the Damascus Sword," Muse, 2 (2) (April 1998), pp. 35-43.
15. J.D. Verhoeven and A.H. Pendray, "Experiments to Reproduce the Pattern of Damascus Steel Blades," Mat. Char., 29 (1992), pp. 195-212.
16. J.D. Verhoeven, A.H. Pendray, and P.M. Berge, "Studies of Damascus Steel Blades: Part IIDestruction and Reformation of the Pattern," Mat. Char., 30 (1993), pp. 187-200.
17. J.D. Verhoeven, A.H. Pendray, and E.D. Gibson, "Wootz Damascus Steel Blades," Mat. Char., 37 (1996), pp. 9-22.

[Anonymous No.10963433]

>>10963428
knife threads have just achieved a new level of autism

[Anonymous No.10963439]

>>10963433
I’m a metallurgist. I hate it when people spout this ignorant crap about subjects they know nothing of.

18. J.D. Verhoeven et al., "Microsegregation and Banding in Hypereutectoid Steel: Damascus Steel," ISS Trans., 25 (in press).
19. E.M. Taleff et al., "Pearlite in Ultrahigh Carbon Steels: Heat Treatments and Mechanical Properties," Met. Mat. Trans. A, 27A (1996), pp. 111-118.
20. J.D. Verhoeven and E.D. Gibson, "The Divorced Eutectoid Transformation (DET) in Steel," Met. Mat. Trans. A, 29A (1998), pp. 1181-1189.
21. D.T. Peterson, H.H. Baker, and J.D. Verhoeven, "Damascus Steel, Characterization of One Damascus Steel Sword," Mat. Char., 24 (1990), pp. 355-374.
22. Massalski, "Preparation de l'acier Damasse en Perse," Ann. Du Journal des Mines de Russie (1841), pp. 297-308.
23. H.T.P. J. duc de Luynes, Memoire sur la Fabrication de l'acier Foundu et Damassee (Paris: 1844).
24. C. Panseri, "Damascus Steel in Legend and Reality," Gladius, IV (1965), pp. 5-66.
25. R.A. Grange, "Effect of Microstructural Banding in Steel," Met. Mat. Trans. A, 2 (1971), pp. 417-426.
26. L.E. Samuals, Optical Microscopy of Carbon Steels (Metals Park, OH: ASM, 1980), pp. 154-161.
27. S.W. Thompson and P.R. Howell, "Factors Influencing Ferrite/Pearlite Banding and Origin of Large Pearlite Nodules in a Hypoeutectoid Plate Steel," Mat. Sci. Tech., 8 (1992), pp. 777-784.
28. R. Grossterlinden et al., "Formation of Pearlite Banded Structures in Ferrite-Pearlite Steels," Steel Research, 63 (1992), pp. 331-336.
29. P.T. Craddock, "Cast Iron, Fined Iron, Crucible Steel: Liquid Iron in the Ancient World," Prehistory of Mining and Extractive Metallurgy, ed. P.T. Craddock and J. Lang (London: British Museum, in press).
30. H. Maryon, "Pattern-Welding and Damascening of Sword-Blades-Part 2," J. of Intern. Inst. for Conservation of Hist. and Art Works, 5 (1960), pp. 52-60.

[Anonymous No.10963448]

>>10963439
is this /ck/ino?

[Anonymous No.10963462]

>>10963428
>Wrong.
>1. M. Sache, Damascus Steel, Myth, History, Technology Applications (Düsseldorf, Germany: Stahleisen, 1994).
>2. B. Bronson, "The Making and Selling of Wootz," Archeomaterials, 1 (1986), pp. 13-51.
>3. W. Rostoker and B. Bronson, "Pre-Industrial Iron, Its Technology and Ethnology," Archeomaterial Monograph No. 1 (Philadelphia, PA: Archaeomaterials, 1990), p. 127.
>4. L.S. Figiel, On Damascus Steel (Atlantas, FL: Atlantas Arts Press, 1991).
>5. C.S. Smith, A History of Metallography, Chapters 3 and 4 (Cambridge, MA: MIT Press, 1988).
>6. C.S. Smith, "Damascus Steel," Science, .....
This is new knife thread copy pasta, I'm fucking impressed though anon. I'm going to meme the shit out of you, for sure. But I am impressed.

[Anonymous No.10963463]

>>10963439
>I’m a metallurgist.
Dude why are you posting this? Surely you dont expect anyone to buy all of those books and read the designated pages ...

[Anonymous No.10963471]

>>10963463
These are all citations from my final paper and pretty much all are available online now.
Just making a point that anon doesn’t know what he’s talking about and ignorance is rife on the internet due to his type.
All opinion, no facts.

[Anonymous No.10963472]

What does /ck/ think about victorinox knives? Is rosewood handle better or worse than fibrox or is it purely aesthetic?

[Anonymous No.10963475]

>>10963472
Rosewood looks nicer but is objectively worse for sanitation and durability.

[Anonymous No.10963483]

>>10963428
>>10963439
Problem is that most chefs knives are just clad Damascus but have a modern steel for the blade. How the fuck long would you have to work the blade and how many times would you have to re hone the edge mm by mm before you got to the part where the Damascus clad starts?

[Anonymous No.10963489]

>>10963483
No such thing as clad Damascus.
Damascus is Damascus my friend.

[Anonymous No.10963506]

>>10963489
I'm not the dude you're replying to, but I have seen many knives made in the Kasumi style with the edge being a hard modern steel and the cladding being pattern-welded (aka "damascus"); the cladding on a Kasumi type knife is usually wrought iron or low-carbon steel. The idea is to have the fancy appearance of damascus but with a proper modern steel for the edge.

[Anonymous No.10963510]

>>10963489
Wrong, take less than ten minutes of your time and learn something today

https://youtu.be/ThSGV66i_zY

[Anonymous No.10963542]

>>10963510
>30 peer reviewed citations for a final thesis
>muh you tube vidya
Sorry mate, I know who I’d be listening to.
Pic not related: remains of lunch.

[Anonymous No.10963558]

>>10963542
>30 sources
>0 on the subject of modern kitchen knives
>Smug sense of superiority

[Anonymous No.10963562]

>>10963558
lame as it might be, it's still better sourcing than you have offered.

[Anonymous No.10963574]

>>10963558
>anon stated that damascus doesn’t have micro serrations
>anon got proven wrong
>(you) mumble something about modern chefs knives
ADHD?

[Anonymous No.10963576]

>>10963562
I mean you could actually watch someone make a clad knife, or is it a big ruse to further big clad agenda?

[Anonymous No.10963590]

>>10963574
Appeal to authority fallacy.

[Anonymous No.10963630]

>the virgin solingen
>the chad aogami super blue

[Anonymous No.10963634]

>>10962353
>people follow speed limits

[Anonymous No.10963636]

>>10962353
>>race tracks don't exist and people never drive on them for fun

[Anonymous No.10963680]

If you hold your knife all day at work then the feel is important. Zwilling or even Mercer is usually quality enough, but if you're passionate about the tools you're using then Japanese steel is a worthwhile investment. If you're an at-home hobby cook then just ordering Chinese stuff off Amazon bc you're probably not using it for more than 4hrs/week

Another way off putting it might be, why buy expensive audio equipment? For listening to records at home, some nice consumer-tier earphones are good enough but audio engineers need that higher level

[Anonymous No.10963688]

>>10963680
>some nice consumer-tier earphones are good enough
If you're a fag maybe.

Jokes aside, this sort of question always confused me. Every person I have ever met has had some kind of hobby or activity that they spend a lot on, and then they proceed to ask OP's question about other things.

>>well yeah I buy a new smartphone every 6 months and I just spent $1500 on a new video card but I can't see why anyone would need more than a $20 knife.

[Anonymous No.10963772]

>>10963428


just give me one quote from J.D. Verhoeven that proves that pattern welded steel forms microseration that helps cutting and i'll change my mind. Can't find those books at the moment.

Also most of the pattern welded kitchen knives are either san mai with mono steel core or they have low layer count.

[Anonymous No.10963817]

>>10963397
>be me
>drive 2016 subaru brz
>have hand me down cuisinart and unbranded knives from sister
>$0 invested in cutlery

[Anonymous No.10963828]

>>10963817

>be you
>drive brz
>get assraped by a MINIVAN on the straights

OH NO NO NO NO NO

[Anonymous No.10963851]

>>10962371
>wear patterns in stuff like Damascus steel can cause micro-serrations to form
Depends. I got an damascus steel one with a vg10 core. Basic stuff, but I'll be damned if I don't love that knife. The core is different from the outer layers. The damascus outer layers are mostly for aesthetic purposes, but these layers are also made of a softer, more stainless steel, so the knife can take more abuse and won't rust as quickly. That is what I understood at least.

[Anonymous No.10963884]

$20 is fine
they realy aren't that soft and won't detoriate that quickly, it's not like you're fucking cutting shit for hours

you do need to sharpen it until it's at least shaving sharp imo

if you are going to spend some more money on a knife, it should be in that 200-500 range
most knives from 20-200 aren't worth it

[Anonymous No.10963888]

>>10963680
>poor fag the post
This website always attracts the poverty stricken that dont understand why people want to spend money on nice things.

[Anonymous No.10963899]

>>10963428
>>10963439
Absolutely fucking based

[Anonymous No.10964536]

>>10963428
>>10963439
ITT: /ck/ ‘expert’ gets BTFO by academia.
Good job, nerd anon.

[Anonymous No.10964780]

>>10963428
>>10963439
>>10964536


LOL sure you are a metallurgist. Google metallurgist - http://www.tms.org/pubs/journals/JOM/9809/Verhoeven-9809.html#ToC8

you copied these sources directly from here and didn't even read the article (or didn't understand it) it's about Wootz steel and not pattern welded steel.

Anyways there is such thing as the "damascus effect" - https://www.bladeforums.com/threads/sharpness-of-damascus.1053710/ but it doesn't make any significant difference and it only appears in high layer count pattern welded steels with specific pattern, orientation and type of the layered steels.


So if someone considers buying kitchen knife from pattern welded steel - know that it only improves looks and not cutting.

Cheers

[Anonymous No.10964806]

>>10962002
Kitchen knives are a meme.

[Anonymous No.10964858]

ok fag here

victorinox fbrox
>purchased this as it was shilled on here for the year i was on /ck/ . got it. not sharp from factory and it was liek holding a plank of wood for a handle

just got the wustof classic ikon

>handle comfy as fuck, knife is sharp hard steel so much easier to cut shit with, so much more ergonomic, for $60 more its insane not to have bought this first.

[Anonymous No.10964912]

>>10963472
Fibrox handles seem to fit atleast on my hand better than the rosewood ones and overall Victorinox knives are decent mid-range stuff.
You can also get them relatively cheap on some stores on the internet atleast if you buy a set.
I bought a "students starter-kit" for about 220euros with about a dozen fibrox knives and a sharpener.
Not that i need them all and the chefs-knive in said set is useless on homecooking due to being 25cm as in WAY TOO LONG but the santoku and other knives in it definitely has their uses.

[Anonymous No.10965147]

>>10963472
I work for a company that does subcontract work for them. most of Victorinox is shit steel. I can't remember the gauge but its always hassle to deal with it.

[Anonymous No.10965150]

>>10963636
Hardly fucking ever. I could probably guess that you don't know a single person that has ever done that.

[Anonymous No.10966301]

>>10963428
>>10963439
Did you have this list ready to go in case someone dissed microseration? You must be a blast at parties.

[Anonymous No.10966326]

>>10962002
Different alloys, premium tax. Different types of cutting blade, different sharpening angles.
So, in general you will be fine with any non-chink steel knife, that is heavy, thick, and doesn't flex much, but fragile.
Also sharp knives prevent injuries for some magical reason, so don't be lazy, get some stones for sharpening, or get some 320, 500, 800, 1000, 1200 sandpaper and flat surface (glass or mirror..) if you're broke.
It is like a car or a laptop. You don't need... Mercedes in order to drive, some Renault Twingo will do just fine.
You don't need 1500$ Mac Book in order to shitpost, 200$ chromebook will do.
And yeah, don't fell for ceramic knives meme, they are fragile.

[Anonymous No.10966330]

>>10966326
>but fragile.
but not fragile. Fix.

[Anonymous No.10966331]

>>10965147
What is the exact alloy they use? Is the steel made in Switzerland or Germany or somewhere else entirely?

[Anonymous No.10966362]

Those curries you see in street food webms don't even use knives, they literally just use sharpened lawnmower blades or something, and they slice through anything with the speed and precision of a laser. And those guys are chopping stuff all day.

[Anonymous No.10967027]

>>10966331

http://www.zknives.com/knives/steels/W-Nr/1.4110.shtml - high corrosion resistance, soft and easy to sharpen. Doesn't stay sharp very long. If you can sharpen with stones it's ok.

[Anonymous No.10967826]

>>10962002
It's a meme. I have 2 knives, one for bread and other stuff and a meat knife. That's it. Got both from my parents when I moved away and they still do the job. The meat knife is easily 20 years old by now

[Anonymous No.10968131]

>>10967826
You probably dont even know what a sharp knife feels like to cut with.

[Anonymous No.10968174]

>>10968131
I'm Ted Bundy, mate

[Anonymous No.10968211]

>>10966301
Reddit response, to be frank

[Anonymous No.10968278]

>>10962002
Look at zeeknives he knows what's up. For someone who breaks down a shitload of veg or does a lot of butchering it can be worth it. Veggies especially, a well made carbon steel blade with high hardness can be taken down to a super fine edge that it will hold a long time. Of you can get that out of a $500 know but it brings your sharpening time during a shift down from 30 minutes per shift to zero (because you have it sharpened at start and it makes through the entire shift) then the blade oays for itself in a few months.

Fwiw everyone I see who does butchery prefers the softer stainless steel knives, you have to hone them on honing steel (arguably easier than sharpening on ceramic like for hard carbon steel blades) but guys who butcher a lot like it LESS sharp, because too sharp cuts through bone when you are not able to see where the knife is. Also chips off way less.

A good beginner knife is unironically the Ikea 365 chefs knife for $20, thinnish blade and surpsingly good steel, kind of a hybrid soft/hard deal - the grip sucks though you might have to fashion something for yourself therr. There are a plethora of options for the softer stainless, the easy pick is a gyuto shape (traditional chef knife no santoku shit) and a handle that fits your hand naturally, full tang is a marketing meme, not necessary or even helpful.

Soft stainless - get a honing steel rod, $11 on Amazon
https://www.amazon.com/J-Henckels-International-9-Inch-Honing/dp/B00004RFNK/ref=mp_s_a_1_5?ie=UTF8&qid=1532619996&sr=8-5&pi=AC_SX236_SY340_FMwebp_QL65&keywords=honing+steel&dpPl=1&dpID=31B%2BSN3B%2BOL&ref=plSrch

Hard carbon - get a sharpening ceramic rod, $23 on amazon
https://www.amazon.com/Messermeister-Ceramic-Rod-Sharpening-Steel/dp/B00BZW3XYW/ref=mp_s_a_1_6?ie=UTF8&qid=1532620035&sr=8-6&pi=AC_SX236_SY340_FMwebp_QL65&keywords=sharpening+ceramic+rod&dpPl=1&dpID=212qwZxc94L&ref=plSrch

[Anonymous No.10968289]

>>10964780
I knew that faggot didn't type that up let alone read all those sources

[Anonymous No.10968331]

>>10962353
>implying some cars arent safer than other
You just implyed that

[Anonymous No.10968348]

>>10963688
>switching phones twice a year
>spending >$400 on a video card
ishygddt

[Anonymous No.10968481]

Was given a ceramic 8" chef's knife as a gift. Chips easily, and feels fragile. I never use it. Meme tier stuff.

[Anonymous No.10968725]

>>10962306
kek, they should make one.

[Anonymous No.10968773]

Gordon ramsay said that the most important part of the knife is the handle. That is comfortable and well balanced with the blade.

Japanese knives with cool patterns on the steel is just a meme to get gaijin money.

[Anonymous No.10968850]

>>10968773
Too bad many Japanese knives have more comfortable and balanced handle than anything made by Zwilling or even Wusthof.