/ck/ - Food & Cooking

You're assuming that vegans are psychological healthy people with rational motivations. They are not.
Veganism is a form of delusional behavior.

>vegan arguments
nice oxymoron

>>9562134
>fish
There is good evidence that even though fish are not very intelligent, they largely experience pain the same way we do, and therefore it would be immoral to cause unnecessary suffering for them.
>shellfish
I'm not so sure about them, although I don't eat them anyway.
>honey
With modern hive methods that don't even need you to put bees to asleep to extract honey continuously I really don't see the problem with honey whatsoever.

For clarification I'm a vegan for both moral and nutritional reasons.

>>9562134
>but anyone who tries to moralize that eating a clam is somehow torturing a creature (a creature without a brain or the capacity to feel pain mind you) is beyond me.

It's simpler to preach "avoid ALL animal products" than it is to try and come up with a list of exactly which ones are or are not morally wrong.

That's one of my main complaints with Veganism. I'm all in favor of reducing animal suffering, eliminating the horrors of factory farming, and so on. But you don't have to cut out all animal products to achieve those goals. You just have to cut out certain types.

But I guess if someone's goal is to belong to a special club to have smug moral superiority over others then the practical details don't really matter.

>>9562134
>Confused By Certain Vegan Argument
So are vegans
The trick is not to think about it too much

>>9562245
>There is good evidence that even though fish are not very intelligent, they largely experience pain the same way we do, and therefore it would be immoral to cause unnecessary suffering for them.
I agree that undue suffering is important for all livestock industries, but it also comes down to an argument of human utility vs. animal comfortability.

>I'm not so sure about them, although I don't eat them anyway.
Evidence points to shellfish being unable to feel pain in a similar way to more developed species.

>>9562245
>nutritional reasons.

I always found this curious. Why do you think that cutting out a large number of potential nutrient sources from your diet to be beneficial? I do agree that the typical Western diet contains unhealthy amounts of many animal-derived foods. But eliminating all of them seems counterproductive, especially given that many vital nutrients are far more bioavilable from animal sources than from plant sources.

>>9562134
Veganism is a cult.
There is no point in trying to find reason in their beliefs.

Find a strict vegetarian if you want to talk to a non-psycho regarding morals. Talk to a vegan if you want to be indoctrinated.

>>9562263
this right here

the most nutritious/healthiest diet is one that is mostly plant-based but contains some meat--mainly things like fish and organ meats

>>9562263
The bio availability thing is a non-issue if your diet is largely whole plant foods. Obviously certain vitamins like B12 will need to be supplemented, but this is a minor inconvenience compared to the overwhelming evidence that animal foods have a net negative effect on the body. I've been vegan for about a year now happily (I don't crave meat or try to simulate it with shitty soy products) and in my most recent bloodwork everything was great, and my cholesterol was lower than ever (I'm genetically pre-disposed to high LDL). I think it's really a matter of perspective. People are so conditioned to think that cutting out animal products is a massive sacrifice, but this is just because they lived their whole lives with a diet centered around them. Being vegan doesn't mean eating salad all day (not implying this is what you believe, but I hear it very often).

>>9562285
>that animal foods have a net negative effect on the body.
But that's not even close to true. I've seen plenty of studies discussing things like over-consumption of certain animal based foods being detrimental to one's health. Or that certain specific foods were unhealthy. But that's part of the problem we're discussing in this thread. It's lumping all things together, rather than focusing on the specific ones to avoid.

"perspective" or "conditioning" might explain people's preferences for meat, but they have nothing to do with the actual, measurable, differences in bioavailability for various nutrients.

You stated that you were vegan for both moral an nutritional reasons. Perhaps your moral reasoning is dominating the nutritional motivation? Because if you were looking at this purely based on a scientific analysis of nutrition you'd be eating mostly plants but including things like cold-water ocean fish and mammalian liver.

>>9562308
>liver
That would fuck my LDL levels up big time.

The nutritional side came first for me. After I made the switch I started researching veganism more and the moral motivations came a few months later. Perhaps I am generalizing, but oily fish high in omega 3s is the only counterexample I've heard that has some merit, and even then it's not any more advantageous than a plant-based source like ground flax, walnuts, etc.

>>9562134
>vegan
>argument
you can't argue with mentally ill people

>>9562245
>>honey
>With modern hive methods that don't even need you to put bees to asleep to extract honey continuously I really don't see the problem with honey whatsoever.

I just want to clarify, both the traditional (traditional as in old as time itself) and modern way to do it is to blow some smoke into the hive to fool the bees there is a forest fire. This makes them want to stay inside the hive and less interested in buzzing around stinging you to death.

I've never heard of any other way to harvest honey.

>>9562467
>I've never heard of any other way to harvest honey.
Literally doesn't matter what you've heard of. Seriously, go fuck yourself.

https://www.honeyflow.com/

>>9562467
Yes in my opinion neither is really harmful to bees, but the more extreme vegans would perceive the traditional smoke method as causing suffering.

>>9562250
>But I guess if someone's goal is to belong to a special club to have smug moral superiority over others then the practical details don't really matter.
/thread

>>9562268
The same argument holds? It's not like the average dairy cow is treated better than beef cattle. I would probably eat cheese if it wasn't incredibly expensive to ensure you're getting it ethically produced.

>>9562134
Some vegans do eat shellfish. They have their own hard to remember name where you're pretty much vegan, but you'll still eat shellfish.

The only vegan I've ever known said she did it to help her "astral project" whatever the fuck that means. When she wasn't pretending to do magic she was bitching about white people while being a complete fucking hypocrite. They aren't rational people, it's a virtue signaling cult.

>>9562637
No they don't.
>>9562620
Biased sources are biased sources. Vegans aren't out to find or promote truth. It's the same reason, but reversed, for why I wouldn't listen to a Hormel rep on the matter.

>>9562637
the word you're thinking of is pescatarian

>>9562683
>I've only ever known one vegan, and she was crazy
>Therefore all vegans are a virtue signaling cult
>But I'm not the irrational one, the vegans are

Really makes you think

>>9562798
>>Therefore all vegans are a virtue signaling cult
No you retard. Those of us who say that veganism is a cult do so because of how the founders of the goddamn movement describe it and its ethos. Vegan is not the same thing as a strict vegetarian. Hell, that's why there's a different word to describe it. It's a goddamn extremist mentality for which there is no compromise even to the point of ridding the world of things like pets.

If you call yourself a vegan and don't adhere to the more extreme views espoused, you might want to stop calling yourself a vegan because it doesn't mean the milquetoast "I don't eat meat and think farming is kinda screwed up" that you think it does, and all you're doing is helping normalize the same kind of extremists that ALF/ELF were.

>>9562719
That refers to vegetarians who eat fish. Normal fish. Not shellfish only.

>>9562815
So if I don't consume any animal products I'm not a vegan? Most people have the perception that vegan = vegetarian + abstaining from milk, eggs, etc, so that's why I use that term. If I said "strict vegetarian" people would assume I avoid meat and strictly adhere to my diet but still consume dairy and eggs, which isn't true.

>>9562849
>So if I don't consume any animal products I'm not a vegan?
If you don't follow the extremist bullshit that they add in, yes you are not a vegan.
>Most people have the perception that vegan = vegetarian + abstaining from milk, eggs, etc, so that's why I use that term.
That's partially because idiots like you keep normalizing the term to make the ideology seem less insane, but it's not that much work to just tell them "hey, I'm a veggie who doesn't eat dairy or eggs".
>If I said "strict vegetarian" people would assume I avoid meat and strictly adhere to my diet but still consume dairy and eggs, which isn't true.
People who assume that are retards, but like above, it's not that hard to go ahead and specify that you don't do dairy or eggs as well.

But quite seriously, yeah, I am being a bit of a dick about this, but look up and read about the views of Donald Watson and the Vegan Society. That's not something any thinking person would want to support or further.

>>9562480
There are courteous ways to cure people of ignorance, and there's the cunt's way.

You fucking cunt.

>>9562873
I don't disagree about "official" vegans being fucking insane, but you're fighting a seriously losing battle by trying to change the commonly used phrasing.

ITT: strawmen

>>9562886
I disagree. People are coming around on the insanity of PETA, it just takes time and vigilance.

>>9562889
Literally, no. Veganism actually has a written and published set of views. They're literally just a google search away.

What's more is that they cult like behavior is especially true in how they are happy to let others coopt the term which makes them seem more populous than they actually are and allows for indoctrination by inches, which is exactly how cults work.

>>9562134
Livestock animals don't suffer tho. It would fuck up the meat if they were under duress. The conditions aren't ideal for humans but remember livestock animals are actually quite hardy comparatively. Not as tough as wild animals tho wild nature, now that's a harsh life for an animal under constant stress and never anybody around to give you food or medicine.

>>9562911
Look, I know that you don't think you're an idiot, but you are. Saying literally and actually a lot doesn't strengthen your baseless argument.

vegetarians ae cucks

>>9562245
what does "the way we do" mean?

>>9562956
It's not baseless. The fact that you think it's baseless is proof that you're just a useful idiot who doesn't look into any views that you espouse. Do you also think National Socialism is a just dandy economic system?

>>9562882
that may be true but no one is holding a gun to your head making you hit send before you have all your facts straight. also part of his fury might be derived from the fact that he basically trounced a part of the vegan argument with a few seconds amount of research.

also everyone one of these threads is more about the argument than the actual topic, sooooo....

>>9562983
I assume anon is referring to the physical structure of the human body--types of nerves, regions of the brain that process pain, etc--which is quite different from the physiology of a fish.

>>9563013
Your syntax is embarrassing.

>>9562250
the same moral superiority you're displaying by figuratively having your cake and trying to eat it too? do you really give a shit about where your food comes from if it meets whatever health standard you care about? could you taste the difference in a blind taste test? are you planning on actually doing anything about "factory farms"? or is it all something you just use as a preface when defending your preference to having meat when you feel you need to?

>>9563045
I'm still not wrong though.

>>9562706
When a vegan argues their point they're biased, when some autistic fat neckbeard shoveling down mcchickens does it, it's "facts"?

>>9562620
so you'd pay for any cheese that has the label "ethically sourced"? lol do you just take their word for it? how could you possibly know? you sound like a whole foods browsing sheep

>>9563062
Fat neckbeards haven't created an organization that would entirely cripple modern healthcare if it had its way.

>>9562620
Neither are treated very poorly at all.

>>9562480
Huh, I stand corrected. Though I do recall hearing of something like this once before. But I still haven't heard of any method that puts bees to sleep before you harvest the honey.

>>9562900
People were saying that in the 1990s. Nothing's changed and PETA is just as irrelevant. People choose to be vegan without PETA being a part of it

>>9563079
Ah yes, can't let big pharma have anything less than a monopoly goy!

>>9563102
Who said anything about protecting Big Pharma?

I'm talking about how vital animal testing is in the drug creation process. Or would you have us start testing on poor brown kids?

fish are living creatures you murder for meat
"moral entities" stop being a little faggot either you kill living breathing things and eat them or not, if youre do, youre a little faggot

>>9563116
Why is killing wrong?

>>9563116

> Triggered little monsanto shill is obvious

lol

Remember kids.

Meat is murder.

And don't forget to eat 12 to 15 servings of Monsanto Certified Organic(tm) produce a day!

>>9563128
>And don't forget to eat 12 to 15 servings of Monsanto Certified Organic(tm) produce a day!

I WILL, MR. MONSANTO SIR!!!

THANK YOU FOR SPREADING YOUR MESSAGE OF PEACE, LOVE, AND HEALTHY EATING!!

>>9563128
Kek this so much

>>9563118
>why is murder wrong
>>9563124
>waaaaah ad hominem because cant cope with murder

>>9563124
>inexplicably bringing up Monsanto out of nowhere
Is this a new meme?

>>9563151
its some delusional head cannon this bitch has as to why he thinks its okay to keep living beings in cages and murdering them

>>9563151
Vegans are being repeatedly BTFO so they shift topics.

well what's the difference between a chicken and a fish really?

>>9563158
Lol
>Flock and herd animals don't want to be huddled up in a clump together
>It is possible to murder a non human

>>9563139
Looks like someone doesn't understand the definition of murder

>i heard that some vegans feel this way and even though they dont affect my life in any way and i dont actually know them i feel a need to let you guys know that i disagree with some of the arguments that i heard they make against other people

>>9562134
The enviromental argument is bullshit, think about how they get their food, they definitely wouldn't be able to source all their food locally and would have to ship in a lot of vegetables just to be able to get enough to actually survive, the ships and aeroplanes used to ship veggies worldwide around belch out massive amounts of pollutants since they don't have any exhaust cleaning equipment not to mention the farming equipment used to plant, harvest and maintain crops, not too sure on what the exhaust systems on those are like but if it's like the old tractors and farm equipment they'll vent the exhaust straight to the atmosphere without running through a catalytic converter

>>9563164
>seething so hard he doesn't even know who brought up monsanto

>>9563191
>I pretend that the Vegan Society doesn't exist and doesn't actually define what Veganism is.

>>9562245
It's not immoral to cause unnecessary suffering. It's not even unnecessary. It's entirely necessary that fish suffer so that I can eat them. Otherwise I wouldn't be able to eat them, and that's unacceptable.

Food has no moral value except in the pleasure it causes me.

>>9563056
Calm down and collect your thoughts, try again after a warm glass of milk

>>9563200
I heard California was considering retrofitting some tractors and irrigation pumps with diesel cleaners but they haven't done anything yet as far as I know. Veganism would definitely be a cluster fuck for the environment though. Most cattle are raised on native range land for most of their lives, which is good because native range land prevents things like dust bowls.

>>9563167
fish perceive pain in a different way such that some people think makes it morally OK to kill and eat them but not chickens/cows/etc.

>>9563229
FYI, "clean diesel" is dirtier than regular diesel.

Don't feel assed to go into the details now, but what happens is you futz around with the exhaust which robs power which makes you burn more diesel to make up for it. A penny-wise, pound foolish situation.

>>9563111
>Or would you have us start testing on poor brown kids?
No, I'd use the retarded and comp their family the cost of care and medication.

>>9563247
Probably why I haven't heard about it since the VW scandal

>>9563167
Fish can't scream.

>>9563242
When I was a kid at summer camp I always volunteered to kill and gut the fish. Best to get that first whack square on the head or else they'll flop more and two and three whacks will be harder to get in

>>9563272
Yeah, there's a lot of bullshit surrounding diesel out there.

Like we should run the US on diesel and not gas. You can get enough higher fuel economy out of the diesel cycle (not to mention the fuel flexibility where conversion to running off propane or NG is retardedly simple) that it more than makes up for the fact that each gallon burned releases more carbon (The numbers are in the neighborhood of 30% dirtier but 60% better fuel economy, when properly tuned). Add in that diesels run at lower rpms, which means two additional facts: you don't change the oil nearly as often (although diesels use more oil in the engine, but you can go 3-6x as long between oil changes, so that's still in favor of diesel) and the engines wear out much more slowly which allows us to keep cars on the road for longer before they need to be replaced. The auto industry would get fucked, but who gives a shit about those assholes who keep making disposable cars?

As to the VW thing, it wasn't just them:
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/07/25/business/diesel-emissions-volkswagen-bmw-mercedes.html

>>9562333
You're misinformed. Look at the conversion from ALA to DHEA. Plant omega threes are not even close to effective to reach the therapeutic dose for omega threes without supplementation. Human beings need to consume fish or omega three supplements to achieve a desired balance between omega6 and omega3. Educate yourself before spewing complete misinformation as you're liable to do more harm than good.

>>9563067
Um no that's the exact opposite of what I said

>>9563082
You clearly have no idea what you're talking about

>>9563200
You are aware that the cattle and chickens you eat aren't raised behind the deli counter right?

>>9563158

The weak should fear the strong, and animals are weak.

>>9562134
Not a vegan myself, but I'd guess the morality wouldnt be based on whether the animal is more or less inteligent, but rather that it wasn't meant to live in cluttered underwater farms fed with its own kin. That added to the impact industrial fishing has in the environment

>>9562134
As long as we don't have a clear idea of what life, consciousness and self-awareness are how how they relate to fish, shellfish and bees, there's a moral argument against eating those things. It's that simple.

>>9562134
I've met vegans who stubbornly claimed humans are actually herbivores and that meat doesn't get digested, but only rots for days in our colon, poisoning us. It's futile to look for deeper logic among people that will believe anything that makes their life choice superior to others.

>>9562882
This kind of people would never talk like that in real life, especially since it's probable they don't have close family members or friends to speak so candid.
Even though >>9562467 could've research before talking and was probably speaking out of his ass, the response was really disproportionate for the conversation.
Just an angry guy venting online.

Overfishing can fuck up ocean ecosystems, which is probably a bad thing considering how much we already do that with dumping oil and plastics

Honey can actually be good for the environment, beekeepers help maintain population levels of those dumb little pests to keep them pollinating

Just do your homework to make sure the food you buy is sustainably cultivated and you'll be more helpful than 99% of people

>>9563116
plants are living things too you faggot

>>9563461
ALA's aren't as bioavailable as omega 3's as DHA from say fish but nowhere near as low as youre making it out to be, and ratios of omega 6 to omega 3 is crucial regardless for proper conversion

>>9562134
bro vegans talk about moral arguments but use phones and clothing made from child labor and underwaged personel

its just a fancy trend because people are trending to value cute animals lives more than humans

>>9564153
Nope only raised the creatures my whole life but tell me more about your vast experience from suburbia and your YouTube video credentials

>>9564677
Holy shit this. Dubs too

>>9564677
Accurate. Semiconductor fabrication that makes their new iPhone every year does insane amounts of damage to the environment and kills people (especially if they work in an Apple factory). My meat-eating ass is doing miles more to help the environment than they are.

>>9563227
You must be 18 years old to post.

>>9562134
I eat honey myself but I've heard two common arguments it. The first is that it's theft, which I think is a bit silly. The second is that a lot of bees die every winter due to how much honey is extracted in industrial production. Normally the bees use their honey to survive but extractors leave very little for them. Sometimes they take almost all of it and replace it with HFCS, which I personally find sad.

>>9564733
No they don't unnecessarily allow hives to collapse simply to extract all the honey they can. It makes no economic sense they have too much invested in their hives. Besides the real money comes from pollinating commercial crops not honey. Seriously you people know nothing about how agriculture works, it's sad.

>>9562134
Eating vegan diet is not enough, we all should stop using cleaning products, both the material source and the waste are bad for the environment especially animal life.
We don't need to be clean to live, dirtiness is natural after all

>>9564854
>dirtiness is natural after all
so are cancer, infections, dying in infancy, famines, getting hit by lightning, getting killed by a wild animal, falling and hitting your head causing brain damage, and birth defects

Your mistake is viewing it as a rational or logical thing- for vegans, this is a knowing, much like you know killing another human being is wrong because you feel it in your bones. Vegans have a higher level of empathy for life than your average person. I am a pescatarian, and I know fish feel pain, yet I need protein and Omega-3's, so I eat some. Your argument is a lot like a sociopath saying "I just don't see what's so wrong about killing people". For vegans, animals are people (or at least they're beings of sufficient status to be protected and loved rather than subjected to cruelty). Where did you get the idea that fish can't feel pain? Go stab one and watch what it does- they absolutely do feel pain.

>>9563461
This, this this. So much this. I used to be a vegan, and at the end of a year I was so drained and tired and STUPID and slow I could barely function. I did dozens of blood tests and the only thing wrong was low cholesterol. I realized I was deprived of animal fats and omega 3s and within of reintroducing them I began feeling better. it's a sad reality, I don't like it but you can't argue with science.

>>9564854
Also not enough. In order to truly combat pollution and climate change we must address the biggest offenders in the world - China and India. These states will not respond to mere economic sanction, our only option is military . To enforce environmentalist policies we need boots on the ground and a hail of bullets for any who would harm mother Earth. Probably also we should post military guards around the Amazon in South America in order to prevent illegal logging.

Anything less is pissing on a house fire - beyond ineffectual

>>9564874
Fish do not in fact feel pain like more developed life forms though. They feel something akin to pain but not how mammals or birds do.

>>9564874
Vegans are dumb for that reason. I will extend empathy to anyone who extends empathy towards me. I will not feel empathy for a person who does not extend the courtesy of empathy towards me. Likewise I will not extend empathy towards a pig that cannot extend empathy towards me. That is a waste of empathy.

>>9564157
You are aware that all veggies don't grow in the same climates right? You are aware that veggies aren't grown at a supermarket right? You are aware that to supply the large amount of the relatively small variety of veggies that we eat that grows in different climates you have to ship shit in from all over the world right? You are aware that livestock can be raised pretty much anywhere in the world right? You are aware that cold cuts, not straight up meat, comes from a deli right? You are aware that meat is usually processed in to the cuts and pieces that we know at a butchery right?

tl;dr: you're a moron

>>9564874
Killing isn't inherently wrong, it all depends on the circumstances

>>9564911
You ever been a fish bud?

>>9564930
You are aware greenhouses are a thing?

>>9564967
You are aware those still can't produce enough to feed your nation right? Even with most people eating meat and shit we still have to ship shit in, imagine how much worse it'd be if everyone was a fucking vegan, we'd be obliterating the atmosphere not to mention the land since we'd have to use monoculture farming to produce nearly enough for us to survive, monoculture farming is fucking horrible for the earths soil

>>9564692
fucking de-stroyed

People not supporting the fishing industry due to overfishing and the destruction of ocean habitats have a fairly decent point. As for fish and shellfish farms I suppose they can reliably fall back on the "I don't want animals to suffer" argument and leave it at that.

People who are up in arms against bee farming are actual fucking retards, though.

>>9563229
I'm not vegan and even I know your argument is bullshit. the energy requirements to raise livestock are an order of magnitude higher than the same nutritional output of vegetables, plus livestock pollute the shit out of the air and water. if anything the environmental argument makes the most (maybe only) rational sense of all the shit that spews out of a vegans mouth

>>9565281
I can safely bet that the banana's in your local supermarket are flown or shipped in from some shithole in latin america, ships and aeroplanes make a lot of pollution, also the method they use to grow produce, monoculture farming, destroys the soil and makes it devoid of nutrients or anything

>>9562219
This.

Also picrelated.

>>9562134
>4chan spots a vegan

>>9564546
>This kind of people would never talk like that in real life,
How much do you want to bet I don't?

>>9562882
I like it when people on 4chan tone police when they have no argument

>>9565560
>meat-eater kills 59 people
>vegan is crazy

>>9562134
It's all about the exploitation/enslavement of sentiment species be it their flesh or their production/byproducts : milk, leather, honey, silk...

Not vegan nor vegetarian but I get the idea and also the contradictions.
I remember that Guy who was always bragging about being vegan, bringing awful bean laced vegan brownies, but was using a fucking slave-made iPhone.

On the other hand I'm tired of smartasses doing the rancid jokes about meatless lasagnas, asking about the awful screams of carots being sliced or snarky remarks about eating microscopic bugs...

>>9565658
>people
they were at a county music show, so lets not get ahead of ourselves here

a potato has a measurable IQ of one. does that mean vegans shouldnt eat potatoes?

>>9565281
You're not seeing the big picture. Permanent pasture with native grasses not only prevents catastrophic events like dust bowls but is also a carbon sequestration system like a forest (since ya know grass inhales carbon and exhales oxygen too) it stores carbon in the roots and locks it in soil like peat bogs (in fact the reason why you can use peat for fire is because it's millions of years of extremely verdant swamp grass all compacted together) so tearing up range land to plant more soy and corn which is what a global vegan food supply would have to be based on would be absolutely catastrophic.

>>9565836
I should also point out that there are places like Wyoming that are unfit to grow most crops in any commercial way but they can raise cattle on the sparse grass and shrubs there so a vegan agroecology would reduce the amount of arable land. Think of cattle, sheep, and goats (ruminates) like little grass factories, they turn bits of vegetation inedible to humans into milk, meat, and fiber. The advantage of ruminate is amazing. Put it to you this way if you had one female dairy cow on a half acre backyard you would get
>More milk than youd know what to do with (2-3 gallons per day, a very conservative estimate based on a pasture and hay diet)
>A calf once a year, which could be sold for 150 bucks pretty much as soon as it's ass hits the ground or raised for meat and leather for your family (steered male at two years old weighs about a ton in hanging carcass which will yield almost a thousand pounds of meat)
You just turned a half acre of backyard grass into much, much more food than a half acre of corn or soy could ever yield.

>>9566165
Except for the fact that human beings are unable to digest most animal feed.

There's a reason why people have raised animals for food since time immemorial. They can convert foods, like grass, which humans cannot digest into things we can digest, like milk, meat, etc.

>>9566165
There is no food shortage. A massive amount of food gets wasted in developed countries. A bigger problem is political corruption and instability. Plenty of times food has been sent to countries facing famines only for it to be stolen by corrupt warlords. Going vegan will not solve everything, it will not turn the world into a peaceful paradise.

Veganism is going to be pointless when cultured/lab-grown meat is available in less than 10 years anyway.

>>9563461
You're full of shit, let this black body builder explain to you why :

http://www.naturallyintense.net/blog/diet/nutrition/fish-is-not-necessarily-the-best-source-of-long-chain-omega-3-fatty-acids/

Most important part of it, vegans plasma levels of DHA/EPA are just fucking fine. Pic related.

>>9566178
You could grow a crop that is consumable for humans instead...it's not rocket science! The resources that go into producing food for cattle is astronomical compared to just grown food for people.

>>9566230
>You could grow a crop that is consumable for humans instead
In some cases, sure.
But remember that different plants require different growing conditions. You can't assume that you can automatically grow crops for humans everywhere and have it be practical.

My family owns land in west Texas. It is completely useless for growing crops. It's far too dry, and the ground is very rocky. There's no way it could be plowed or planted. But the cows an goats are happy to eat the native grasses and scrub that grows there.

There are no "resources" spend on it. It's just what grows there naturally. They have a solar-powered pump for water and they put out salt-mineral blocks for the cows. That's it. Growing crops for humans there would be practically impossible.

>>9566230
Almonds to cattle in California for example

>>9565836
The acreage you would need for the soy and corn for a vegetarian doesn't significantly impact on the amount of land you can keep for pasture. It's a tiny irrelevant percentage.

If we all go vegan you can let the buffalo roam on the plains and in a tiny corner grow some soy and corn.

>>9566240
That is great on a small scale in your area, but the fact is that crops are grown in places where food can be produced cheaply and with less carbon footprint for humans and aren't.

>>9566230
my family has a small "farm"
they grow veggies in the garden, and keep a small number of pigs, goats, and chickens.

the chickens eat for free. they free-range and get all their food from the land, and in return provide eggs every day and meat when they get too old to lay. plus they keep the garden free of pests without the need to spray poison and their poop fertilizes it.

the pigs get fed kitchen scraps and leftovers. the goats eat plants from the land as well as the inedible parts of the plants from the garden and provide meat.

it is very rare that we actually have to buy "feed" for the animals. so long as you don't keep more animals than you have space for they pretty much feed themselves.

granted that doesn't scale up to industrial production, but in many cases it's entirely possible to raise animals with minimal resources. after all, that's what peasant farmers have been doing for thousands of years: most of your diet comes from crops. you raise animals with the inedible parts of said crops so that they can turn waste into meat.

>>9566263
Again fantastic! That however isn't practical for everyone everywhere. Things need to change with industrial production or future generations wont even have that option.The more plant based foods we consume the better it is for everyone.

>>9565922
Google tells me you need about 2 acre per cow. The milk of a cow is about 2.5 megacalories a year.

Potatoes would give you 14 times that.

>>9566263
As a population, to eat the amount of meat we could grow for free like that we'd have to significantly reduce our meat intake (or throw away most of the vegetables).

>>9566282
>>9566258

Nobody said those things were perfect or possible everywhere. But it illustrates two important facts:
1) not all land that sustains animals can be used to grow crops for people. In those places it makes perfect sense to raise animals for meat. What else would you do with it?

2) It is possible, under certain situations, to raise animals with minimal, if any, food cost .

The problem here is not "eating meat", instead it's a particularly wasteful factory farming system. This goes back to the discussion far earlier in the thread. Why do Vegans assert lump all animal-raising together? Clearly those two farms aren't being wasteful in the slightest so it's silly to lump those in with all forms of meat-eating.

You most certainly can eat meat without contributing to the industrial meat industry & its associated problems.

>>9566299
>we'd have to significantly reduce our meat intake
Yes. And I don't see anything wrong with that. We don't have to eliminate eating meat, we just have to reduce it and make sure it comes from responsible sources.

And that's what grinds my gears about many Vegan arguments. You don't have to eliminate meat in order to address those concerns. You simply have to reduce its consumption and be selective about where you get it from.

And frankly, I'm in favor of that regardless of environmental or practical concerns. I'd much rather have smaller amounts of really tasty high-quality meat than I would massive amounts of flavorless factory-farmed garbage.

>>9566315
>instead it's a particularly wasteful factory farming system

It's not really wasteful, corn is a very high yielding crop.

If we want to eat as much beef as we do, then feeding them corn is the best we can do really. Any alternative would do more harm to the environment.

We can't really raise all our beef by letting them graze non irrigated grassland, it would take far too much land.

>>9566258
The 48 states continental U.S. makes up about 1.9 billion acres of land and about 788 million acres, 41.4 percent, is grazed by livestock.

Yes not much of the u.s. is range land at all.

>>9566284
No, not at all. Do you have any idea how ridiculous 2 acres per cow would be extrapolated over the current cattle population would be? That's a bad stat m8

>>9566508
Also I have a herd of 30 cattle on 17.5 acres of land that produce roughly 3 gallons of grass fed milk per head per day. I wasn't just pulling those numbers out of my ass.

How do hardcore vegans justify the fact that the fruit they eat is pollinated by farm bees and the vegetables they eat is often grown with fertilizer made by factory farmed cattle

>>9566531

>>9566531
Or that industrial harvesting techniques inevitably grind up thousands of field mice and lizards and destroy the homes of numerous other species of small animals that live in fields.

>>9566522
What do you feed them in winter?

>>9566633
You can be perfectly healthy on a vegan diet. And vegans are morally superior. Anyone who thinks otherwise, please educate yourselves

>>9566617
Not to mention the environmental damage caused by pesticides and runoff. Ever seen what happens when fertilizer gets into a river?

>>9566617
For that argument they'll say that veganism still reduces the amount of suffering and animals killed compared to the billions of animals slaughtered for food every year.

It's kind of hard to say that they're wrong about that. I'm not a vegan but I respect that they're trying to do the moral thing, even if I disagree with them on how to solve the issue. There are health benefits for us to eat meat sometimes, and it's been a part of our diet for so long that I don't believe you'll ever convince everyone to go vegan. I think lab-grown meat will do more to reduce animal suffering when it's available, and I've even seen many vegans say they'll start eating meat again when they can get that.

>>9566648
>You can be perfectly healthy on a vegan diet.
Except that vegan protein sources aren't as easily utilized by the body and you need supplements, and vegan diets still aren't recommended for growing children. You can be a vegan who is healthier than an obese meat eater but someone who eats meat with a healthy diet and exercises regularly will probably be in better shape than a vegan who does the same.

>>9566617
>>9566651
The difference is that going vegan wouldn't degrade society's quality of life in any way, and avoids slaughtering billions of animals vs. thousands. If we stopped using modern agricultural techniques food prices would skyrocket and we wouldn't be able to sustain our own development. I'm not a fan of all the shit that gets into our water supply but there isn't necessarily a clear solution that would allow us to have our cake and eat it too.

>>9566678
Multiply thousands of field animals killed per harvest by the number of harvests and you easily end up in the billions. I don't think it's so clear.

>>9566678
Not being able to eat meat would absolutely degrade my quality of life. I like to workout and be active. Restricting myself to an anemic vegan diet would ruin that.

>>9566702
What does anemia, working out, or being active have to do with being vegan? I'm not seeing the connection.

>>9566714
I'm not the guy you're replying to, but many nutrients, including iron, are most bioavailable from meat sources. If one is highly concerned about nutrition then he/she would want some meat products in their diet because there are many vital nutrients whose best sources are animal-based.

>>9566662
>bones
>refined sugar
I understand that it is only involved in the process but the sugar itself doesn't contain the bone right?

>>9566666
educate yourself, meatcuck

>>9566733
>but the sugar itself doesn't contain the bone right?
Correct. There isn't any bone in the sugar. The bone is simply used as a cheap source of charcoal for the refining process. It could be done with any source of charcoal, but bone char is most commonly used because there is a bunch of it generated by the meat industry, so why not use that instead of throwing it away?

>>9566732
eat some spinach, iron deficiency solved.

>>9566742
nice, now if only someone could sauce that whole picture, I have some vegans I want to BTFO coz they won't shut up about their eating habits.

>>9566746
The iron in spinach is far less bioavailable than, say, liver.

>>9566633
Pasture hay and alfalfa hay. So basically chopped grass dried and bailed for preservation.

>>9566747
>>9566742
The difference is that buying sugar doesn't generate significant demand for a greater number of cattle to be slaughtered to harvest their bones, whereas buying meat does have a direct impact.

>>9566747
that's because your diet is horrendously unethical

>>9566768
it doesn't matter, it is still not vegan. Vegans aren't about reducing consumption of meat, they are about cutting it altogether.

>>9566762
Just because it is less bioavailable doesn't mean you can't easily obtain sufficient quantities of plant-based iron in your diet. Do you have any evidence to suggest that iron deficiency is a problem for people who eat a few cups of spinach and lentils a day?

>>9566735
My left nut is bigger than that twinks bicep.

>>9566772
>i am supposed to stop eating meat because some idiot in some third world country loves to torture animals
Well, where I live there is something we call animal welfare laws and they are strictly enforced.

>>9566772
Treating animals like that is illegal and practically no meat eater will defend it.
I could probably find you a wheat farmer who delights in slowly torturing captured mice or something. That does no condemn the wheat industry or people who eat bread.

I grew up in the country and around people who raised both cows and pigs for a living. They treated their animals with kindness and respect.

>>9562134
>fish
>shellfish
>honey
That's what I don't understand either, that's why I only don't eat mammals, including dairy shit. Mostly because it's a garbage food, though.

>>9566772
Lol those cows barely responded to any of that. It didn't even phase them. Although it makes since considering they weight an actual ton and have a hide so well known for it's durability it's been used as everything from armor to factory belts. Notice how the Pitchfork prodding left not even a scratch?

Do you realize that a cow can accidentally kill a person? I mean it will playfully head but you and cause organ damage? Ive seen cows break wooden steaks and water pipes trying to scratch an itch. They are not a very sensitive animal.

>>9566786
lol that's America. Animals are treated like shit in first world countries. The pig industry has a practice called 'thumping' for bludgeoning non profitable pigs to death.

Stop lying to yourselves to try and make yourselves feel better

>>9566774
>Just because it is less bioavailable doesn't mean you can't easily obtain sufficient quantities of plant-based iron in your diet.

No, it doesn't make it impossible. But it is a step in the wrong direction. It's a compromise. Nobody said it was impossible to be healthy on a Vegan diet. Clearly it can be done. But it's more work and more costly than the alternative.

>>Do you have any evidence to suggest that iron deficiency is a problem...
Google "Vegan anemia"

>>9566823
lol 'phase'. It's faze you dumb cunt. Obviously cows are fazed by captivity and abuse.

>>9566835
There's nothing wrong with what was in that video and there's nothing wrong with culling genetically inferior hogs.

>>9566835
>America
Your animal welfare laws are a joke compared to EU.

>>9566844
Bitch shoulda turned her head. And mother cows beat their calves worse than that when they don't want them to nurse.

>>9566815
>I could probably find you a wheat farmer who delights in slowly torturing captured mice or something
Don't forget human cruelty. How much of the food we eat is grown and harvested by what is practically slave labor?

>>9566835
Probably shoulda just shot it in the temple with a .22, but did you think I didn't know where suckling pig comes from?

>>9566852
You've read and studied both of them instead of kneejerking based on what you saw on the news? I'm impressed, anon. Not many people actually read what they're blabbing about.

It's nice to see a poster like you who can back up their claims with specific facts.

>>9566836
Why not looking at actual scientific literature?
http://ajcn.nutrition.org/content/78/3/633S.full

The lower your iron stores get, the better your body gets at absorbing it.

http://ajcn.nutrition.org/content/70/3/586s.long

Anemia may only potentially be a problem with vegan women (women get anemia often even when they eat meat anyway, as seen in the study under "Iron and zinc"), and it was a borderline status at that.

>>9566882
Here is a small example, in Germany, it is illegal to keep chicken in cages. it is a relatively new law so don't be surprised if you see some farms still caging their chickens, they have to adapt or shut down. In the US however they still keep them in cages.
I will not recite the whole laws for you anon, Americans are shit when treating their animals compared to Europeans.

>>9566889
Sorry for double posting but I figure I would fetch this section:

>One concern with vegetarian diets has been the possibility of iron deficiency and consequent anemia. Iron bioavailability from foods of plant origin is low compared with that from meat. Inorganic iron binds to phytates, tannins, and phosphates in plant foods and these may have an inhibitory effect on iron absorption (26). On the other hand, vegetarian diets provide ample quantities of vitamin C, which is known to enhance the absorption of iron (27).

Vegan men had a relatively high intake of dietary iron but their mean ferritin concentrations were significantly lower than those of nonvegetarians. This is consistent with other studies that showed hemoglobin to be within the normal range and ferritin concentrations to be lower in male vegetarians (28, 29). In population studies, lower ferritin concentrations have been associated with a lower risk of heart disease (30) and may be thought of as a beneficial consequence of vegetarian and vegan diets. Our results show that marginal iron status is a potential problem for women whether they follow vegan or nonvegetarian diets.

>>9566894
>I will not recite the whole laws for you anon,
I know you won't. You don't know them. You've never actually read any of them, from any country. You just parrot what you read or saw on the news or on some blogpost.

>>9566889
>The lower your iron stores get, the better your body gets at absorbing it.

What does that have to do with the fact that animal sources are more efficient than vegetable ones?

>>9566897
>>Iron bioavailability from foods of plant origin is low compared with that from meat
I'm glad we agree, and your own source proves it. That was the extent of my point, nothing more. Why would you want to exclude the most efficient source of a nutrient from your diet? That seems silly.

>>which is known to enhance the absorption of iron
That's nice and all, but it's meaningless without a discussion as to whether nor not that "enhanced absorption" is enough to overcome the lower bioavailability. "Improvement" is not enough information. We need numbers.

>>9566923
ok, all farm industries are evil, no exceptions. even individual small farmers systematically torture their animals.
no need for sources, these are the actual facts. feel better?

>>9566931
>ok, all farm industries are evil, no exceptions. even individual small farmers systematically torture their animals.
>no need for sources, these are the actual facts. feel better?

Do dumbass 'mericans really believe this shit?

>>9566938
I don't know man, you ask him.
>The EU has among the world’s highest standards of animal welfare. The overall framework for EU action on animal welfare is set out in the EU Animal Welfare Strategy 2012-2015.

Here is a link:
https://www.efsa.europa.eu/en/topics/topic/animalwelfare

Vegan starter kit - https://veganuary.com/starter-kit/

- Vegan diet healthy for all stages of life

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19562864

- Vegan B12 in traditional fermented foods & seaweed e.g. tempeh, kimchi etc.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC242746/ - Tempeh

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3062981/ - Traditional Korean fermented foods provide adequate B12

- Loads vegan products fortified with B12 (produced without the use of animals)

https://www.godairyfree.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/So-Delicious-Dairy-Free-Cashew-Milk-Nutrition-Facts.jpg - Cashew Milk

https://static.openfoodfacts.org/images/products/319/817/200/0120/nutrition_fr.8.full.jpg - Corn Flakes


- USDA 40% of US population flirting with B12 deficiency due to modern farming

https://www.ars.usda.gov/news-events/news/research-news/2000/b12-deficiency-may-be-more-widespread-than-thought/


- Processed meattrash lowers sperm count

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4180710/

- Estrogen in milk lowers test and stops you developing into a real man

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19496976

- Casomorphine in milk is addictive

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1374738

- Milk gives you prostate cancer

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25527754

- Milk gives you acne

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19243483

- Heme iron in red meat gives you esophageal and stomach cancer

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22044848

- Meat gives you colorectal cancer

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4698595/

- Eggs increase cancer risk even when adjusted for intakes of macronutrients or for other food groups

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8061589

>>9566930
My point with the second post's quote was that men had healthy iron levels, vegan or not. Just because animal sources are more efficient sources of iron doesn't mean the diet overall is healthier (in fact the opposite may be true). By eating meat you may be providing yourself with iron, but with those calories you could have gotten far better nutrition and avoided trans fat, saturated fat and cholesterol consumption in the process.

>>9566988
>but with those calories you could have gotten far better nutrition
How? Your own source said that the meat was more nutritious.

>>avoided trans fat
There's no appreciable amount of trans fat in nature. Appreciable amouns of trans fats only exist in manmade artificial products.

>>saturated fat
Nothing wrong with that, assuming one doesn't overconsume

>>cholesterol
totally irrelevant since dietary cholesterol has no effect on serum cholesterol. Eat as much as you want.

Now I do agree 100% that the average diet does contain unhealthy amounts of meat. You'll get no argument from me about that. But I think the idea of getting rid of ALL meat because people often over-consume it is beyond retarded. Why not advocate eating a healthy (i.e. small) amount of it rather than throwing the baby out with the bathwater?

>>9566858
The difference being it is a fucking cow? Compared to a human being getting pissed at and kicking the shit out of an animal?

>>9567003
1. My source said meat was a better source of iron. Iron is not the only nutrient. Spinach provides plant-based iron and also a ton of other vitamins and minerals.
2. One serving of beef has around 1g of trans fat, that's quite appreciable.
3 and 4. The level of "over-consumption" for saturated fat and cholesterol is anything above 0, according to IOM recommendations. Your idea that dietary cholesterol doesn't affect serum levels is a total myth not backed by science. The studies that show this sort of result are usually for diets already high in cholesterol compared to ones even higher in cholesterol, because your body tapers absorption for high intakes.

Let me be clear, there is no healthy level of meat intake when it includes saturated fat or cholesterol and you could get the same nutrients from plant sources.

>>9567054
Why does it matter who's giving the the discipline? Besides that guy was trying to get that calf to drink it's milk and stop worming around and buck it's head. Besides do you actually think a human kick hurts more than a kick from a one ton animal with hooves instead of feet? Cows communicate with each other with a lot of physicality most of what we do to them amounts to gentle reminders to their perception

>>9567063
>Let me be mistaken

I fixed that for you.

>>9567088
>I fucked that up for you
Fix'd.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21521229

>Tolerable upper intake levels (ULs) set by the Institute of Medicine (IOM) are important, in part because they are used for estimating the percentage of the population at potential risk of adverse effects from excessive nutrient intake. The IOM did not set ULs for trans fat, saturated fat, and cholesterol because any intake level above 0% of energy increased LDL cholesterol concentration and these three food components are unavoidable in ordinary diets.

>>9566975
>Vegan
>That pic
>Steroids
lol

>>9566772
>the one guy punching the udders

actually gave me a hearty chuckle

>>9562134
Not a vegan/vegetarian but I'll try to answer these.

I think, but I'm not 100% sure, that the idea that fish don't feel pain is a common misconception. Shellfish I'd agree though.

However, I think in the end, I think for vegans its much more about just making sure you're not being a hypocrite. If you can't eat one animal, you can't eat them at all. Because this whole do they feel/is it exploitative thing has a lot of blurry lines and I think just avoiding everything that comes from an animal makes it simple. Plus as our scientific understanding on how other animals live it's always plausible that we'll learn that they do in fact feel pain or a negative affect when they are killed/exploited.

For honey, I guess the argument is that you could accidentally harm the animals when obtaining it or that they bees need the honey for their own uses. Since the ecosystem is so heavily dependent on bees, it's important to keep them happy.

>>9566216
Lol they only have a sample of 5 fucking vegans try again Nigger.

>>9562245
You fuck every fish on the sea going to be eaten anyway by other animals. It is not going to die by 'old age' peacefully. Stop projecting such baseless morality

Can someone points out why knowingly killing animals to eat is wrong while every other animals knowingly eat others to eat?

>>9562333
There are three types of omega 3. Flax and walnuts don'the contain the best types for health improvement. Fish and grass-fed meats do.

my father,my grandfather and my ancestors eats meat,why should i abandon the tradition

>>9568521
most vegans would put out the arguements 'hurr durr we r humans we r much more than animals with our logic and rational'

>>9566666
Chekd

>>9562886
vegan is commonly known to mean no leather no sugar no gelatin/glycerin in toiletries though. Very few people are vegan.

>>9564911
What is the thought process behind believing that a living organism that moves around, hunts, and interacts with it's environment would not have the ability to feel pain? That'd be pretty poor biological design if fish just didn't feel anything that hurt them.

The nervous systems of fish are less large and complex than humans. Unfortunately we let anyone with an IQ over 85 get a biology PhD these days, so some dough headed moron concluded that 'fish less complicated, must not feel as much either' and got his unfounded conjecture published.

>>9564920
Empathy is an automatic feeling, it's not about getting anything in return. You're confusing it with sympathy.

>>9564945
You replied to the wrong person or misread what I wrote.

>>9567142
>Steroids
It is an embarrassingly poor example of a healthy human. Most of those guys pay the price for that abuse later in life. As with most things now, appearance is more important than substance.

>>9562944
underrated post and checked the digits as well

>>9569144
Why should I emphatize with a fish, that will get eaten by another fish anyway if I don't eat it?

>>9569467
Because an ideal human is not an animal himself, being both above and apart from the cycle of life and death in the animal kingdom. Doesn't that feel special?

>>9569467
>>9569503
Besides, "people" who can empathize with animals, yet still eat them are lesser beings than the animals they eat. So say I, a morally superior, enlightened being who is apart from nature.

>>9569467
Why shouldn't I eat babies if they're going to die anyway

>>9569521
Why should I let you live if you die anyway?

>>9566858
I hate to side with a vegan but there's absolutely no defending what that man did to that little calf. The problem wasn't that the calf was trying to drink and the mother wanted it to stop, the problem was that the animal didn't know what it was supposed to do and he lost his temper and viciously assaulted it. The calf didn't learn anything from it, all that happened was it got hurt without knowing why, which would probably only make it even more averse to doing what he'd been trying, and humans in general.

Most of the other stuff the vegan is posting (like the piglets being culled) is industry standards but that isn't.

>>9567074
It sort of does, the method of punishment and why it was done is really important.

When a cow doesn't want to let a calf nurse, she'll kick it, but not at full power and not repeatedly. It'll probably be just one kick followed by maybe a headbutt or a shove, and it'll happen each time the calf tries to drink. The calf will get the simple message very quickly.

This guy lost his shit at the calf for not knowing what he wanted it to do, and pinned it to the ground and repeatedly hit it. This is not behavior the cow expects or understands - if anything it's closer to what the animal would expect of a predator trying to kill it. While he probably didn't cause it too much physical damage, it didn't learn anything because there wasn't a simple message being conveyed.

>If I try to drink milk I get kicked
>Better not drink milk

>This thing is grabbing me and trying to move my head around what the fuck help
>Now it's making loud noises and pinning me down and hitting me what the fuck
>What the fuck

>>9562480
honeyflow is a hobby meme

>>9562245
>put the bees to sleep

What the fuck this isn't a thing you retarded vegan. Beekeepers blow small amounts of smoke in/around the hive. This fools the bees into thinking the hive is in danger of burning so they focus on damage control. They'll gorge themselves on honey in the event they need to flee the hive, and will also fan the hive with their wings to remove smoke. This is good for the beekeeper because these damage control behaviors make them mostly uninterested in what he's doing, as long as another bee doesn't release alarm pheranones they'll mostly leave him/her alone.

In fact, commercial beekeeping operations as well as amateur beekeepers are one of the very few reasons why bees are still super common. If we didn't cultivate them for their honey we'd only have wild bees. So apiarists are one of the biggest conservation groups in the world.

>>9569595
>>9569614
That guys an idiot because he doesn't know how to feed a finicky calf (you're supposed to straddle it's neck from behind it's head and use your legs to hold the lil guy still and lift it's head up while feeding the bottle of milk with the other), but the calf was neither injured or emotionally hurt by that retard. When I see that video I just laugh that that dude got so triggered by that baby calf because he doesn't know how to do his job.

>>9567274
One study of over 14,000 vegan men and women, with no intake of dietary EPA or DHA from marine sources still had very high levels of plasma DHA and EPA. [36]

>>9562134
>he doesn't consider every living thing on this planet equal to himself in value
that said, i'll eat the sumbiches all day as long as im not the one killing them.

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/10/16/science/depressed-fish.html

>>9564964
No but we have these things call scientists who can study fish and figure out how they work you dumb fuck

>>9569144
Im 100% sure that someone with a PhD is gonna know a lot more than you do fagtron

>>9573230
Im definitely smarter than Dr Drew

>>9565317
strawman argument. meat can be flown in just a easily as vegetables can be grown domestically. monoculture is a problem everywhere. meat requires a lot of monoculture to support it.

>>9565836
scrubland livestock raising hasn't been a thing for a while. the overwhelming majority of cattle are raised on crops due to demand. ideally meat consumption goes down when the land stops being able to support it, and fertile land is used to feed humans instead of animals. but that's not reality here in burger land.

>>9562134
>Now the environmental argument I can still see,
For wild fishes? Unless it's about red tuna or swordfish there's no environmental argument

>>9562245
>they largely experience pain the same way we do
No living creature does outside of humans.People are mixing the physical sensation of pain, and the emotional response to it. There's also facts about the lack of tactile sensed in primitive creatures.

>>9563022
God forbid someone doesn't research before claiming anecdotal evidence with a hook for anyone willing to educate for their own enjoyment. Ass-wipe that you are

What if i create a intelligent species of cow that doesn't feel pain and want to be turned into food?

>>9573570
>want to be turned into food
Like turning cows into nihilist or doctrinate them that it is their ultimate life goal?

>>9563187
i swear to fuck bringing up semantics that sidesteps the point has got to be one of the weakest possible arguments to pose to someone when there are so many valid moral and ethical talking points both for and against meat eating

>>9566735
>you have to be vegan to achieve ottermode

no wonder I can't find otters anywhere, they've all blown away with the wind

>>9562849
Can you even read? You missed his whole point and then said the same thing twice.
>You might want to stop calling yourself a vegan
Damn, i guess the vegans got to him. Take him out back boys, there's nothing more we can do

>>9562944
Checked
Also this man has a point. Even killing them is usually pretty quick.
Gruesome, yes. Painful, probably not.

>>9563056
Are you mad at other anons for not going out and attempting to enslave blacks, mexicans, and indians again? Just because that guy doesn't want factory farms to exist doesn't mean he has to do shit to change it. We're all autists on 4chan what the fuck could we do anyways?

>>9563249
>No, I'd use the retarded and comp their family the cost of care and medication.
Yeah i'm down for this

>>9566666
Checked