/ck/ - Food & Cooking

I don't get why mods let these obvious ad threads stay up

its good for you

>>9153046
Nope. Not any real ones. You're about to get a lot of confused people posting about cherry picked studies they haven't even read that they found on some clickbait article on a low carb website, btw. Just to warn you.

>HUMANS ARENT SUPPOSED TO EAT ANIMAL PRODUCTS
>forcefeed vegan diet on a newborn infant
>DIES

UUUUUUUUHHHHHH

is there any health justification for shitposting on /ck/?

>>9153046
depression is one of the key factors in longevity.
Eating well is a factor in preventing depression.
Also why would you need a health justification? it's the right thing to do.

>>9153046
Beacuse i want to you fuck nu-male dick slobbering faggot

>>9153046
no, there's no health justification. are you happy now? I'm still eating meat

>>9153046

No. As far as I can tell, there are no legitimate arguments against a vegan diet, other than "I like the taste of meat and cheese".

>>9153149
there's also no legitimate health arguments for veganism. There's valid arguments to reduce your meat consumption, but there's no legitimate health reason to completely and utterly get rid of all animal products in your diet.

I eat meat for the same reason I own assault rifles, because I want to you cocksucking liberal faggot

>>9153166

Agreed. I think that's where the ethical component come in, however. But that isn't the purpose of the thread, I suppose.

To be fair, vegans have the upper hand in this debate. They have science backing up the health benefits and the moral high ground.

I recently starting eating more vegetarian, still haven't cut out meat completely. But I only did it to save money, and to see how my body responded. The more I stick to it, the easier it seems to go completely vegan. And I never took second thought to the treatment of animals but it's actually a really good argument when I think of killing and eating my own dog or cat.

>>9153149
There are several.

1) It's an expensive luxury that's only possible in highly developed areas.
2) It creates a lot of pollution & waste

both of those derive from the fact that vegetables have growing seasons. You might be used to walking into a market in december and being able to buy tomatoes, but people seem to forget that out-of-season produce is expensive as fuck, and it's only even possible thanks to stuff being grown on the other side of the world and shipped over to your local WholePaycheck via a fleet of smoke-belching ships and trucks.

3) It's sub-optimal nutrition. Some vital nutrients are far more bioavilable from animal sources.

>>9153177
>They have science backing up the health benefits
What exactly are the scientifically proven health benefits to cutting out all animal products from your diet, as opposed to say, only eating a little bit of meat, eggs, and dairy?

I get that a lot of people eat too much meat, but that doesn't prove the best way is to eat absolutely zero animal products.

>>9153180
I believe this is the dumbest post I've ever seen on 4chan. Congratulations.

>>9153180

All three of those have been debunked time and time again. I highly recommend educating yourself on the subject.

1) A whole foods vegan diet can be extremely cheap. Whole nutrient-dense meals can be made for cents.

2) You don't seem to understand how much waste and pollution meat and diary production produces. Plant cultivation creates tiny amounts compared to that.

3) There is no nutrient that you can't get from a plant-based diet that you can from a meat-based one. Meat (and diary) is extremely nutrient sparse compared to plants.

>>9153180
1) I agree with you here, but if we worked to get most of the world on the same page, there's arguments that it's completely self-sustaining.
2) I didn't realize this one, I'll look in to it.
3) The only thing I can think of is B12 which can be supplemented.

I'm not trying to argue for or against veganism, I am just legitimately wondering what the most efficient way of feeding people could be.

the most ethical diet is a small amount of meat and a lot of veg. meat has its place in an environmental and ethical world, as some places are not fit for crops that humans consume. protip: the corn they feed to pigs is not the corn they feed to humans

>>9153193
>as opposed to say, only eating a little bit of meat, eggs, and dairy?

This is where they get you, and I understand your point completely. All of the studies show health benefits of plant based diets compared to something like a "typical Western diet." I honestly think they are missing a big point by jumping to conclusions like that. The typical Western diet is pretty much simple carbs, high saturated fat, low on the vegetables, and pretty much pro-inflammatory.

Why can't they compare a plant based diet to a diet that still eats meat (in moderation or lean cuts) that still consume a lot of vegetables? They compare two different extremes. If someone can cite me a study that has done this I'd appreciate it.

>>9153214
Disingenuous motherfuckers.

There has to be a correlation with following basically any strict diet and being healthier, simply because you're paying attention to what you eat and not eating whatever.

We could probably run statistics on the keto diet (most likely the average person following a strict keto diet is healthier than a random person) to prove that Americans need to eat even MORE meat, for our health!

>>9153200
Yeah, I think historically, raising animals for food makes a lot of sense. They can eat things that humans can't, so you can convert more energy into a form that we can consume. And you get useful products like wool and leather.

Cultivating human-edible plants just to feed to animals is kind of dumb. Maybe it's okay if you're doing it on land that is otherwise unusable. Many of the areas we typically associate with people that rely heavily on herding are places where large-scale agriculture is very difficult.

>>9153214
I really get annoyed by people who make absolute statements like this when they know full well they haven't read all the studies. No, actually most of the studies are comparing to a "healthy" omnivorous diet or are actually studying the components of food themselves in a lab. There are many studies that do this if you bothered to look into nutrition at all.

>>9153254

I agree to an extent. I think there was probably a historical, and perhaps evolutionary, benefit to raising animals for their meat (and other things, as you mention). But I think at this point in Western civilization it's really unnecessary at best.

>>9153277
This.

I've given up on 4chan because there are so many people like this spreading their ignorance and I just don't have the patience to debunk every stupid thing they say.

>>9153277
cite them

Because I'd rather eat a 1/4 lb hamburger than 2 and 1/2 lbs of kale

>>9153277
Please post a link.

>>9153294
clearly you have the patience to read this thread and fill out a capcha just so you can post about how little patience you have, so why not indulge us in a little conversation?

I challenge anyone to convince me that eating zero animal products is better than eating a little bit.

>>9153223
The Keto diet has been shown countless times in studies already to be hazardous to your health in many, many ways.... A vegan diet has been shown countless times to be optimal for human health and to reverse health issues caused by eating animal products. But thanks for making it clear your strong desire to cherry pick.

>>9153335
Look into heme, IGF-1, casein, Neu5Gc, hormones in animal products, just for starters.

>>9153335

Since cooked meat is considered to be a level one carcinogen, the way I'd answer that is with an analogy; is not smoking at all better than just smoking a little bit?

I realize the analogy isn't perfect (is any analogy?) but I hope it gets the point across.

I agree that being *mostly* vegan is better than getting most of your calories from animal product, but I think this is where the ethical argument comes in, which isn't the topic of the thread, so I'll leave that alone.

>>9153089
Wtf I hate vegans now

>>9153338
post evidence

>>9153348
>>9153355
so.... no links to studies?

>>9153369

To which point?

>>9153365
Vegan diets are good for babies, he's just referring to clickbait articles about some family who thought their baby could survive on nothing but apple juice. Has nothing to do with veganism as a whole. A shitload more omnivorous families kill their children through diet and no one blinks an eye.

>>9153374
Any actual evidence that eating zero animal products is healthier than eating a little bit.

>>9153380
www.theradicalvegan.tumblr.com/health

To start you off...

>>9153383
>www.theradicalvegan.tumblr.com/health
nigga I am not reading all that shit

can you narrow it down to the important part, where it proves that a vegan diet is better than any diet that has even a little bit of animal products?

>>9153369

Again, I recommend looking into it yourself. There are studies out there, you just have to use a little Google-fu. If you aren't willing to do that, I question how willing you are to be "convinced".

If you need a little push, check out Dr. Michael Gregor's videos. He sites many studies in each one, with links so you can read the studies yourself, so you don't have to take mine, or his, word for it.

>>9153046
Better question: does there need to be a justification?

>>9153403
>Again, I recommend looking into it yourself
this is how I know someone on the internet is full of shit. They make a claim, pretend it's obvious, and when you ask them to back it up they either act like it's so obvious they shouldn't have to back it up, or they link you to some unreasonably huge amount of stuff to read, or tell you to google it yourself.

Your claims are discarded, until you back them up in a reasonable and concise manner.

I bid you good day sir

>>9153338
>A vegan diet has been shown countless times to be optimal for human health and to reverse health issues caused by eating animal products

Yeah you're not cherry picking at all bud, you've just got all the right facts :^)

>>9153419
Not the fedora you are arguing with, but its never unreasonable to give someone some google search terms and tell them to research for themselves. He took you to the well, its your choice to drink or not. For the record, you sound stupider of the two of you.

>>9153348
The casein study you are referencing is bullshit. I'll go ahead and assume it's the same one covered in that garbage documentary Forks Over Knives?

>>9153419

While I wasn't the one to link the tumblr links, your way of describing it as an "unreasonably huge amount of stuff to read" tells me you're not willing to educate yourself, and would rather be spoon-fed.

I'm not here to do that. I'm here to have a rational conversation that you don't seem to be willing to have.

>>9153355
>Since cooked meat is considered to be a level one carcinogen, the way I'd answer that is with an analogy; is not smoking at all better than just smoking a little bit?

Lots of stuff is carcinogenic if you consume too much of it. Like sunlight. Are you going to cut sunlight out of your life? Oh, I forgot, you live in ur mums basement.

Anyway let's assume I even believe you about cooked meat causing cancer, even if you only eat a little bit (I don't believe it but whatever). There's still eggs, dairy, sushi, lots of other stuff that vegans also don't eat. Does ALL of that cause cancer too, even if you only eat a little bit?

>>9153430
>>9153434
>samefagging this hard

Well, "some other guy", I guess if the tumblr link is so reasonable and concise, you can post a quick rundown in this thread?

>>9153380
>>9153403

You were triggered over someone claiming the studies they read were of veganism vs Western diet. Your rebuttal was "I hate when people spread ignorance."

Then when someone asks for credible sources you link blogs and YouTube videos...

>>9153444
He's lying only processed meats and bacon are level one carcinogens. Red meats are a level 2 or probable cause of cancer.

>>9153403
Lmao, here's a link to a rebuttal. https://sciencebasedmedicine.org/death-as-a-foodborne-illness-curable-by-veganism/

>>9153444
https://examine.com/nutrition/scientists-just-found-that-red-meat-causes-cancer--or-did-they/

That's about as sciencey as your going to get. And the long and short of it is that YES nitrates and nitrites in meat aren't good for us. Other meats seem to be just fine unless you're eating them every meal of your day.
The truth of the matter is that if you're looking for a silver bullet answer to "Is _____ bad for you?" the best and most honest answer you can get is "It's complicated"

>>9153584
ah yes, the IARC, the agency that at the point it reviewed 1000 substances, it said that exactly 999 of them cause cancer. Surely THEY wouldn't fear monger!

>>9153584
thanks, so you agree that it is unjustifiable to claim that the strict vegan diet is healthier than eating a little bit of animal products

>>9153198
Lurk more

>>9153046
I don't want to live that much longer so I just do stuff I enjoy and that feels good

>>9153551
Here's a counter-rebuttal

http://donmatesz.blogspot.com/2013/02/harriet-halls-critique-of-gregers.html

>>9153419
>this is how I know someone on the internet is full of shit. They make a claim, pretend it's obvious, and when you ask them to back it up they either act like it's so obvious they shouldn't have to back it up, or they link you to some unreasonably huge amount of stuff to read, or tell you to google it yourself.
>
>Your claims are discarded, until you back them up in a reasonable and concise manner.
>
>I bid you good day sir

This is gonna be my new copypasta when some dipshit makes a claim and then says "its not my job to educate you" when asked to back it up

>>9153601
Your question is too vague. A strict vegan diet could consist of a guy eating vegan cupcakes all day every day.

If you're asking the question - Can I eat one serving per day of fish or chicken and one serving of eggs or dairy and still be as "healthy" as your average vegan? My personal answer would be you fucking betcha... but the honest answer would STILL be "it's complicated" because the state of nutrition is more like religion than it is science.

>>9153643
I don't think my questions are unfair given that people like this faggot >>9153338 have posted their autism ITT

>>9153624
>literally cites YouTube videos as counter claims

He still makes good points, but that's just some inane shit.

>>9153338
lol

yeah, doing enjoyable things reduces stress which is measurably good for you

>>9153046
Yeah
Humans are omnivores

>>9153600
To be fair, shit tons of things cause cancer. The only thing that matters are the chances of causing cancer. Even if 999 things cause cancer, that doesn't mean they probably cause cancer. The sun causes cancer, does that mean I'm fear-mongering for simply stating it does?

>>9154312
https://twitter.com/wthfilm/status/846787896879153153

>>9153294
You have to start debunking every stupid thing you say before you debunk every stupid thing other people say. Otherwise, you look like the ignorant little shit they are.

Which is what I see you as right now, you ignorant little shit.

>>9154349
>post a monkey and not a gorilla

https://veganbiologist.com/2016/01/04/humans-are-not-herbivores/

>>9154345
so if everything in reality causes cancer why tell people little individual things so they can spaz out trying to avoid them? Let them know how to minimize risk, i.e. wear sunscreen, eat LESS red meat, don't smoke, etc.

>>9153355
don't you think some people have a genetic predisposition for eating meat? I think some people can thrive off a vegan diet while others would quite literally lose their minds.

would forcing a vegan diet on these individuals make sense if they develop mental health issues and experience poor quality of life?

freedom and the free market has always been the solution.


any have advice on maximizing plant based protein? share some info. that's what the internet is for

>>9153046
they taste good
fuck you cucked vegeterians you're literally missing out on half the diet

>>9153380
There is none so far. The science doesn't support veganism. However meat consumption should gp down drastically in favor of vegetables/fruits/whole grains and dairy is worrysome all around (though I love some cheese from time to time).

>>9153046
Aside from geographical locations that prohibit a vegan diet, no. Not really.

Arctic, barren landscapes, inedible flora, starvation otherwise, nutrient diversity...

>>9154585
Lentils are absolutely great, so are some of the more protein rich beans. Soy is also a good source but I dislike the taste. The people sperging about phytoestrogens are morons, you'd need to consume a shit ton of soy foods for it to make any noticeable difference.

>>9155079
What about people allergic to legumes?

>>9153149
here you go, faggot. i hope you stay on that weak bitch diet and get cancer.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/03/29/long-term-vegetarian-diet-changes-human-dna-raising-risk-of-canc/

>>9155513
You realise that's not even about veganism, right?

>>9153397
Not them, but just came across this and remembered your post:
https://www.mindbodygreen.com/0-28742/what-happens-when-you-eat-just-one-fatty-meal.html

Studies are linked in the article for anyone who wants to read them.

>>9155523
>implying a vegan diet isn't more restrictive than a vegetarian diet
did you even read the article?

>>9153177

>advocating for animals to never be born
>denying the chance for life to exist
>encouraging the extinction of most factory farmed species and subspecies

Do you keep any pets? Any of them eat meat? I'm sure many vegantarians do and don't even see the hypocrisy

>>9153046
B12, maybe omega-3 fatty acids? Who knows for sure? But there's certainly no reason to consume the amount of animal products in the current Western diet.

>>9153046

Very hard to get a complete deficiency in anything with a "normal" diet containing meat and dairy (not talking about the "bone broth for babies" types). You need to have more of a clue about nutrition as a vegetarian.

>>9153046
Only if it' s "home grown."

>>9155526

What does that have to do with veganism? There are lean meats as well as fish, also there are highly saturated vegetable fats.

>>9153046
>eat meat
>have healthy testosterone levels
>be able to build muscle easily
>not need to supplement your diet with vitamins
>eat delicious food regularly
>make the perfectly reasonable decision that the emotions or wellbeing of animals that would not even exist if humans didnt breed them are irrelevant ethically, intellectually, technically, and on every scale of time
>live an enjoyable life as a functional male and die at 75 from some kind of inevitable cancer

>be vegan
>hormonally female
>testicles are decoration
>must put in way more work to build less quality muscle
>more prone to depression due to heavy reliance on grains and legumes
>more prone to gynecomastia
>teeth erode way faster
>reliant on vitamin supplements or unnaturally fortified food
>take pity on animals that were bred to be too stupid and have hips too wide to survive in nature
>less painful shits
>social life is at least somewhat constrained due to your diet and the social implications that go with it
>delicious food that obeys your dietary constraints is significantly more expensive than equally delicious non-vegan foods
>live until youre 110, but go senile by the time youre 95, watch all of your friends die in the last decades of your life

Its ultimately your choice.

>>9155961
Not how science works you retard.

>>9156218
>I make unfounded claims based on nothing but shit I pull out of my ass as I go and greentext them

No, vegans have strong arguments in the health and cost sections of their ideas.

But there is one reason why it's irrelevant: I like the taste of real meat.

I don't care about anything else, fuck your moral arguments, I have the ability to buy and consume meat and I will. You can't change the fact that I love meat in my mouth.

>>9156699
Not an argument.

>>9153046
Not really, your a fucking omnivore. Have yourself a varied diet and and don't binge or get excessive with your shit and you'll be fine unless you need to adjust your diet to a workout regime or lifestyle.

>>9153059
Mods only prune shit they find personally disagreeable.
Try making a thread about fatshaming and see how fast you get banned.

Animal fats are good for your skin in a way that no vegetable fat is. This is why vegans have such fucked-up skin.
And obligatory muh b12

There is no proven benefits to abstaining from meat, only to abstaining from excessive quantities of meat, which any dipshit could figure out.

fuck you vegans
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8BQBvwq12r8

>>9156161
Literally nothing, vegans seem to think fat only comes from animals.

>>9156124

the argument is that humans don't need meat, while some pets like cats are true carnivores.

vegans who feed their cats a vegan diet should be shot

>>9159624
I actually know multiple vegans who have vegan cats. It's the same as feeding cats Science Diet kibble, except the vegans at least monitor their health and adjust their pH if needed.

>>9153200
>>9153206
He didn't say animal products have nutrients you can't get in plant products, but that nutrients from animal products are more bioavailable. That means your body will absorb more of a nutrient from an animal product than a plant product even if they both have the same amount of it.

A few studies have also shown that people who don't eat meat have less muscle mass than people who do eat it even considering all other factors. This is probably a bad thing, although not a huge deal it's still something to consider.

Well, hopefully some vegans will kill themselves if I keep it up, and that will improve my mental health.

My father was a vegetarian all his life and now he has cancer.

I really wish somebody told me these things earlier....

> Long term vegetarian diet changes human DNA raising risk of cancer and heart disease

Long term vegetarianism can lead to genetic mutations which raise the risk of heart disease and cancer, scientists have found.

Populations who have had a primarily vegetarian diet for generations were found to be far more likely to carry DNA which makes them susceptible to inflammation.

Scientists in the US believe that the mutation occured to make it easier for vegetarians to absorb essential fatty acids from plants.

But it has the knock-on effect of boosting the production of arachidonic acid, which is linked to inflammatory disease and cancer. When coupled with a diet high in vegetable oils - such as sunflower oil - the mutated gene quickly turns fatty acids into dangerous arachidonic acid.

The finding may help explain previous research which found vegetarian populations are nearly 40 per cent more likely to suffer colorectal cancer than meat eaters, a finding that has puzzled doctors because eating red meat is known to raise the risk.

>>9161192
>Populations who have had a primarily vegetarian diet for generations were found to be far more likely to carry DNA which makes them susceptible to inflammation.

Interesting. And inflammation is a known precursor for cancer.

>>9161157
>>9161192
A self righteous shitposter, how ironic. Figures your mental health is shit.

>>9161192
>My father was a vegetarian all his life and now he has cancer.

I'm sorry to hear that. Maybe he should have done some reading...

> Researchers from Cornell University in the US compared hundreds of genomes from a primarily vegetarian population in Pune, India to traditional meat-eating people in Kansas and found there was a significant genetic difference.

> “Those whose ancestry derives from vegetarians are more likely to carry genetics that more rapidly metabolise plant fatty acids,” said Tom Brenna, Professor of Human Nutrition at Cornell.

> “In such individuals, vegetable oils will be converted to the more pro-inflammatory arachidonic acid, increasing the risk for chronic inflammation that is implicated in the development of heart disease, and exacerbates cancer.

>>9161192
>The finding may help explain previous research which found vegetarian populations are nearly 40 per cent more likely to suffer colorectal cancer than meat eaters, a finding that has puzzled doctors because eating red meat is known to raise the risk.

This might explain it:

> “Those whose ancestry derives from vegetarians are more likely to carry genetics that more rapidly metabolise plant fatty acids,” said Tom Brenna, Professor of Human Nutrition at Cornell.

> “In such individuals, vegetable oils will be converted to the more pro-inflammatory arachidonic acid, increasing the risk for chronic inflammation that is implicated in the development of heart disease, and exacerbates cancer.

>>9161200
>> “In such individuals, vegetable oils will be converted to the more pro-inflammatory arachidonic acid, increasing the risk for chronic inflammation that is implicated in the development of heart disease, and exacerbates cancer.

FUN FACT:

Despite being a vegetarian culture, India actually has the highest rates of digestive tract cancers in the entire world.

>>9161192
>>9161198
>>9161200
>>9161203
>>9161208
What kind of samefagging is this even? It's so blatant and retarded.

>>9161199

> triggered vegetarian detected

Might be that vegetarian brain tumor getting you so triggered, senpai. Might want to check that out.

>>9161211

OMG!!! FACTS!!! GET THESE OUTTA HERE!

I DON'T WANNA SEE THESE!!!!

>>9161200
>> “In such individuals, vegetable oils will be converted to the more pro-inflammatory arachidonic acid, increasing the risk for chronic inflammation that is implicated in the development of heart disease, and exacerbates cancer.

For those of you who don't know what arachidonic acid is:

Roles of cPLA2α and Arachidonic Acid in Cancer

Roles of cPLA2α and Arachidonic Acid in Cancer

>>9161220
>Roles of cPLA2α and Arachidonic Acid in Cancer

Phospholipase A2s (PLA2s) are key enzymes that catalyze the hydrolysis of membrane phospholipids to release bioactive lipids that play an important role in normal cellular homeostasis. Under certain circumstances, disrupted production of key lipid mediators may adversely impact physiological processes, leading to pathological conditions such as inflammation and cancer.

>>9159651
Lol I bet the vegans let them free roam. Cats need carnitine which only comes from meat. If you're vegan cat food contains carnitine it's not vegan. Morons. Theyre also causing harm to the cat, which is hypocritical and ironic.

>>9153046
>So is there any health justification for eating animal products?

Yes. Absolutely.

>>9161192
>The finding may help explain previous research which found vegetarian populations are nearly 40 per cent more likely to suffer colorectal cancer than meat eaters, a finding that has puzzled doctors because eating red meat is known to raise the risk.

>>9161497
Don't forget that vegans are twice as likely to develop osteoporosis of the spine.

>>9161507
>Don't forget that vegans are twice as likely to develop osteoporosis of the spine.

You are correct, sir.

> Veganism and osteoporosis: a review of the current literature.

Prominent databases were searched for original research publications providing data capable of answering these questions: (i) Do vegans have lower-than-recommended levels of calcium/Vitamin D? (ii) Do vegans have lower bone mineral density than their non-vegan counterparts? (iii) Are vegans at a greater risk for fractures than non-vegans? The findings gathered consistently support the hypothesis that vegans do have lower bone mineral density than their non-vegan counterparts.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16942519