/ck/ - Food & Cooking

bump

It's not unhealthy, but it's not the healthies possible diet; that would be pescetarianism. Gotta get those omega3s.

>>5652359
Chia seeds. High in Omega-3's and they also don't have brain damaging mercury in them.

>>5652318
Fuck off you anemic vegan cocksucker. Vegans are like communists and fags. Shoot every one that you see.

>>5652318
Hey friends. I'm meat eater and my new girlfriend eats almost strictly vegan. Any advice what to cook for her/us, any advice what to avoid?

>>5652383

Sardines nigga: 300% your daily requirements of vitamin B12, 40% of your daily protein, 50% our daily requirement of vitamin D, and they contain a negligible amount of mercury because they're low on the food chain.

>>5652392
Dump the bitch. She'll be accusing you of being a violent patriarchal slaver before you know it. She's a fucking psychopath waiting to explode.

>>5652392
Avoid arguing over your reasons for eating the way you do. Unnecessary conflict that won't get anywhere.
Kale is awesome in smoothies and packed full of stuff your body needs.
Don't buy something for her unless you know what's in it
Something I never knew until I started trying to become vegan is that you can't eat butter. It just completely slipped my mind.

>>5652399
Not all vegans have coinciding political views m8.
Like, I think feminism is mostly stupid and I'm a vegan. I also think people should eat meat and animal products if they want to.

>>5652427
My man! I used to be vegan but my new lifestyle didn't allow me to eat every other hour, so I've gone "back" to animal products and I can mantain a breakfast and dinner meal now which suits my current lifestyle.

If there were vegetarian meals that were as satisfying as any animal protein, I'd switch. Is it all just beans, grains, roasted vegtables and salad?

>>5652424
>Kale is awesome in smoothies and packed full of stuff your body needs.

I agree, but I hope you cook that shit because the oxalates in raw kale will give you kidney stones 100%. My MD is a vegetarian and he did green smoothies before they were popular and told me he passed 2 stones in his lifetime and he's seen a lot of other vegetarian patients that have passed stones and he says it's attributable to the low bile turnover in a high carb diet.

don't take my word for it brah.

>>5652445
wow I didn't know this, thank you for telling me. definitely looking up more about it!

>>5652443
Nah, there' some great stuff you can make that has fruit and fake animal products and the like. you just have to do a little searching to see what you'd like.
There's vegetarian lasagna that's amazing

>>5652438
I feel ya man, not everyone has the time to eat exactly the way they want to unfortunately

Just eat like a vegetarian, AND eat meat. People who start vegetarian/vegan diets always talk about how they feel so great, but that's not due to the omission of meat but because they're now eating more fruits, veggies, legumes, etc which everyone should be doing anyway. Most of the vegetarians I've known also had come from awful diets before, which would explain the great difference in how they feel after.

I've been an accidental vegan lol, wasn't terrible. I d love meat though. But I could stuff my face all day with delicious tropical fruits and shit.
Is it possible to live on a diet consisting solely of tropical fruits, coconut water, dark chocolate, macadamia nuts, and coffee...? Cause I think that's a diet I could get behind lol. Maybe throw some veggies and rice in for good measure.

>>5652578
Or maybe ditch the rice (it's so cheap and filling though), focus on fun veggies like sweet potatoes and plantains... Hmmm.. I may try this. I'll probably end up fat and dead though lol.

>>5652318
>sweets
>legumes
>grains
>seeds
>nuts
>fake dairy

Fuck that and the processed shit. Just give me vegetables, leafy greens, fruits, and fungi. That other shit is just going to fuck up your body from your teeth to your large intestine.

>>5652424
>Kale is awesome in smoothies and packed full of stuff your body needs.

Kale ain't shit compared to wild greens. Try lambs quarters, common plantain, dandelion, and ribwort/english plantain.

OP, if you're not doing it for personal ethical reasons, then there is no reason to be a vegan (unless you have a dairy allergy, an egg allergy, and the super rare but possible meat allergy).

There is absolutely nothing unhealthy about eating meat; meat has shaped a huge part of our evolutionary history. Many animal products are incredibly good for you. Most ancient human populations evolved getting most of their calories from animals - muscle, fat, organs, cartilage. Plant foods like leafy greens and roots and berries are also necessary and beneficial, of course, I'm not saying people should eat only meat, just that calorie-wise it was never unusual for people to get most of their food from animals before we started domesticating plants. Our bodies are very well equipped for it, designed for it even.

I won't argue anyone's ethics. If you simply can't bear to eat animal flesh because it makes you sad, then that's your thing, I'm not going to tell you that your feeling is wrong. But for 99.9% of people, there is no valid health reason to become a vegan.

>>5652597
u sound very hardcore vegan

what do you normally eat in a day

>thoughts
Why are all of you retarded?

>>5652640
I'm not. I hunt and fish and raise chickens, but I don't eat all that much of anything. When I did eat like a vegan it was what I already listed. Now, I only eat stuff I raise myself or harvest/catch on my property. I guess I now have an unintentional paleo diet, now that I think about it. Only very little meat eaten.

Guys anyone know why I can't eat avocado? I can eat bananas and strawberries and kiwi but if I eat an avocado my stomache goes into shock, even just half of one.

avocado oil is fine though, i can drizzle and cook with it no prob

>>5652682
Cool shit bro. Post pics of your body, let's see how fit you are.

>>5652687
You want camwhore photos go to /fit/ or /b/ or where ever they do that shit now.

>>5652683
What do you mean when you say your stomach goes into shock? Is that the actual term for what you're referring to? Can you describe it?

>>5652697
Well it's like my insides are crunching and it just hurts? Kinda hard to describe but additionally to that my head gets foggy and I start feeling sick. The only thing that I've found that helps is if I eat some crackers or honeymaid biscuits.

I am not complete vegetarian, eat occasional burger or meat pizza. One thing that I acquired from vegetarianism is that pork (pig, swine flesh) became kind of disgusting. I understand people that don't eat pork.

If vegans care sooooo much about animals why do they eat nothing but their food when the have a choice not to. Just eat organic if your that sensitive

>>5652743
>pork became kind of disgusting
Let me introduce you to bacon

>>5652318
>Natures candy
>A major part of your diet
Vegans can't be this dumb can they?

Tofu

>no stock

That's too much.

>>5652933
They do that too, not realizing that unless you know who grew it, it's gonna still have a load of "organic certified" pesticides on it.

Here you are

www.adaptt.org/

>>5652505
>>5652443
yeah, there are some legit tasty fake meats out there. recently got this fake chicken shit which is wayyyy better when fried up than most chicken

>>5652318
Please no, unless you are willing to have a nice steak or roast about every month for that extra nutrient boost.

>>5652729
Allergy maybe?

>>5654305
intolerance, an alergy has to have an immune system response related symptoms, red eyes, swelling throat, stuffed nose, etc.

>>5652743
>One thing that I acquired from vegetarianism is that pork (pig, swine flesh) became kind of disgusting
But pork is delicious.

>>5652383

Chia seeds like all plant sources only contain ALA and do not contain the more important EPA and DHA fatty acids.

While it does transform to EPA and DHA in your body, it does so at a very very bad efficiency

>>5652318
>fruits
>1.5-2.5
basically everything on here needs to be doubled, if not tripled

>>5654393
Seriously. I don't understand why this is so hard for people to comprehend. DHA and EPA are the omega-3s that have shown beneficial effects in studies, not ALA. We don't convert nearly enough of the ALA we consume into EPA and DHA. Despite this, we lump all omega-3s together, and vegans always think they're doing so well with their flax and chia.

I like to buy omega-3 enriched foods when I can because seafood is really expensive where I live, but over half of the products out there are enriched with ALA, to which there is NO POINT whatsoever when it comes ot health benefits.

>>5654405
which one is in algae? i sometimes buy whole milk that has algae omega 3 added

>>5654405
"Claims about omega fatty acids being found solely in fish are absolute lies. Some fish have omegas because they've eaten algae/seaweed or consumed
other fish who have already eaten algae/seaweed. Every vitamin, mineral and nutrient comes from the earth in the form of fruits, vegetables
(sea or land), nuts, seeds, grains and legumes. Animal products only contain trace amounts of vitamins, minerals and nutrients because animals
eat plants (sea or land). Meat is, at best, a secondary source of essential elements."

>>5654683
grass has really good stuff
too bad humans cant digest it and we need cows for food

>>5652318
moral veganism is a cancer

vegan diets are healthy enough provided you supplement your b12 and usually zinc

that pyramid should really have veg and whole grain merged onto the bottom layer, bean/seed/etc+fruit on the next up, then fats/oils and high fat foods on the same layer as protein dense lean foods (e.g. tofu), then sweets and simple carbs on top

>>5652392
friend of mine's wife was a vegan when they started dating

he cooked her a bunch of vegan food, then stopped cooking her vegan food and she just stopped being vegan. it's a funny trick.

>>5654683
It's relevant in fish because it accumulates. Accumulation is important.
>>5654405
Half true. EPA and DHA have function specific benefits, omega-3's have benefits overall. ALA does not give you the same benefits as EPA or DHA, but there is relevance in the claim that ALA is beneficial over typical omega-6 fats.

>>5652318
>Do you think it's healthy or not even worth the attempt?
As other people have pointed out, it's not strictly healthy. What is healthy is having balanced diet with a wide variety of foods with ideally large amounts of fruits and vegetables. Vegan and vegetarian diets are not superior choices. They tend to do better in tests because most of the cohort studies don't control the non-vegetarian group's diets. Epidemiological studies say that they're healthier because vegetarians are more health-conscious, not because vegetarianism is beneficial. When you compare ANY sane diet to one composed of mcdonalds and gravy-slathered potatoes, it's a given that it will look good.

Someone else said it, but "eat like a vegetarian while still eating meat". Eat lots of vegetables. Let whole grains and so on compose a decent part of your diet. Eat lots and lots of vegetables. Eat meat periodically (even frequently, if you want) but be sure to include an equal amount of fish and to split your meat intake between beef, chicken, etc. The most balanced diet is one that has as many things as possible.

The one part of veganism that's worthwhile is the fact that it opens you up to recipes you never even knew existed. Thug Kitchen has some neat recipes with a very amusing presentation.

>>5654757
>humans: requires fiber to stimulate peristalsis
this is incorrect.
>humans: alkaline urine
this is also incorrect
>Humans: alkaline salive
this is also incorrect
>Humans: intestine is 9 times body length
this is also incorrect
>herbivores: sweat glands whole body
incorrect for most herbivore

>>5654800
>meat-breed chickens can live up to 8 years
>btw meat-breed chickens are actually very short lived and rarely live longer than a few months when not slaughtered

>>5652318

>>5652383
They also don't have concentrated pollutants.

>>5652392
What to cook: http://www.pinterest.com/vfortheanimals/
Be respectful and open minded.

>>5652427
>Equal rights and opportunities are stupid

What?

>People should fund extreme animal abuse and environmental destruction and the destruction of the health of others and themselves if they want to.

What?

Okay. Thanks for proving not all vegans are informed and compassionate. Good job.

>>5652634
Please don't make absolute statements about nutrition ever again.

There are plenty of things unhealthy about eating meat and shut the fuck up about our evolutionary history, that's hardly even relevant.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yfsT-qYeqGM&feature=player_embedded
Celebrated Cornell University professor T. Colin Campbell Phd, presents the overwhelming evidence showing that animal protein is one of the most potent carcinogens people are exposed to.

TMAO: A Toxic Substance Formed When You Eat Meat Can Make You... Dead Meat
http://www.forksoverknives.com/tmao-a-toxic-substance-formed-when-you-eat-meat-can-make-you-dead-meat/

Meat, dairy may be as detrimental to your health as smoking cigarettes, study says
http://www.cbsnews.com/news/meat-dairy-may-be-as-detrimental-to-your-health-as-smoking-cigarettes/

Vegan Blood Fights Cancer 8x Better
http://nutritionfacts.org/video/developing-an-ex-vivo-cancer-proliferation-bioassay/

Vegan diet in physiological health promotion. [Acta Physiol Hung. 1999] - PubMed - NCBI
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10943644

Due to measured levels of dioxin that exceed safety standards, the National Academy of Science has for years recommended that people avoid eating a diet rich in animal fats.
http://www.diseaseproof.com/archives/hurtful-food-my-reaction-to-looking-at-an-oily-cheese-pizza.html

Change in quality of life and immune markers after a stay at a raw vegan institute: a pilot study
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2486444/

The role of diet and physical activity in breast, colorectal, and prostate cancer survivorship: a review of the literature
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3251953/

>>5652634

Interindividual differences in response to plant-based diets: implications for cancer risk
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2677005/

An impact of the diet on serum fatty acid and lipid profiles in Polish vegetarian children and children with allergy. [Eur J Clin Nutr. 2011] - PubMed - NCBI
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21048771

Effects of a long-term vegetarian diet on biomarkers of antioxidant status and cardiovascular disease risk. [Nutrition. 2004] - PubMed - NCBI
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15474873

Vegetarian diets and the incidence of cancer in a low-risk population. [Cancer Epidemiol Biomarkers Prev. 2013] - PubMed - NCBI
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23169929

Meat Consumption and Cancer Risk
http://www.cancerproject.org/survival/cancer_facts/meat.php

Red meat and colon cancer
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21558046

Study finds unsafe mercury levels in 84 percent of all fish
http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-18563_162-57563739/study-finds-unsafe-mercury-levels-in-84-percent-of-all-fish/

Study Points to New Culprit in Heart Disease
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/04/08/health/study-points-to-new-culprit-in-heart-disease.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0

"Neu5Gc elicits an immune reaction that might contribute to a whole spectrum of human-specific diseases"
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/science/science-news/3346666/Mystery-of-the-meat-eaters-molecule.html

>>5652634

Restriction of meat, fish, and poultry in omnivores improves mood: a pilot randomized controlled trial
http://www.nutritionj.com/content/11/1/9/abstract

Harvard School of Public Health » milk is NOT the best source of calcium
http://www.hsph.harvard.edu/nutritionsource/calcium-and-milk/

Eating less meat and dairy may help reduce osteoporosis risk, Cornell studies show.
http://news.cornell.edu/stories/1996/11/eating-less-meat-may-help-reduce-osteoporosis-risk

Milk--the promoter of chronic Western diseases
PMID: 19232475
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19232475

Dairy product, saturated fatty acid, and calcium intake and prostate cancer (PMID: 18398033)
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18398033?itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPanel.Pubmed_RVDocSum&ordinalpos=2

Acne, dairy and cancer (PMID: 20046583)
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2715202/?itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPanel.Pubmed_SingleItemSupl.Pubmed_DiscoveryDbLinks&ordinalpos=1&tool=pubmed

Harvard study: Pastuerized milk from industrial dairies linked to cancer.
http://www.naturalnews.com/035081_pasteurized_milk_cancer_dairy.html

Hormones in milk can be dangerous By Corydon Ireland
http://news.harvard.edu/gazette/2006/12.07/11-dairy.html

>>5654848
The grain typically fed to livestock is inedible to humans, what remains of the plant after the human-edible portion has been removed.

Vegans can't into agriculture, funny enough.

>>5652634
Cow's milk, every sip of cow's milk has virus in it; and pus and bacteria, powerful growth hormones, proteins that cause allergies, antibiotics, pesticides, fat cholesterol and dioxin -- now, which one of these things do you want in your body?
http://www.naturalnews.com/002684.html

Milk consumption: aggravating factor of acne and promoter of chronic diseases of Western societies
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19243483

Milk Consumption and Prostate Cancer
http://pcrm.org/health/health-topics/milk-consumption-and-prostate-cancer

Dairy Linked to Acne Development
http://www.pcrm.org/health/medNews/dairy-linked-to-acne-development

Understanding the Problems with Dairy Products
http://www.nutritionmd.org/nutrition_tips/nutrition_tips_understand_foods/dairy.html
1. Osteoporosis 2. Cardiovascular Disease 3. Cancer 4. Diabetes 5. Lactose Intolerance 6. Vitamin D Toxicity 7. Contaminants 8. Health Concerns of Infants and Children


Nutrient Density of Animal and Plant Foods:
http://www.drfuhrman.com/library/article17.aspx

Animal Protein and the Cancer Promoter IGF-1
http://nutritionfacts.org/2013/02/14/animal-protein-and-igf-1/

Nutritional Update for Physicians: Plant-Based Diets (a summary)
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3662288/

For more studies and information on plant based diets, check out this site:
http://plantbasedresearch.org/

>>5652634
And since you brought up our biology:

Facts and principles learned at the 39th Annual Williamsburg Conference on Heart Disease
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3603726/
"There are in Roberts’ opinion 4 facts supporting the contention that atherosclerosis is a cholesterol problem: 1) Atherosclerosis is easily produced experimentally in herbivores (monkeys, rabbits) by giving them diets containing large quantities of cholesterol (egg yolks) or saturated fat (animal fat). Indeed, atherosclerosis is one of the easiest diseases to produce experimentally, but the recipient must be an herbivore. It is not possible to produce atherosclerosis in carnivores (tigers, lions, dogs, etc.). In contrast, it is not possible to produce atherosclerosis simply by raising a rabbit's blood pressure or blowing cigarette smoke in its face for an entire lifetime. 2) Atherosclerotic plaques contain cholesterol. 3) Societies with high average cholesterol levels have higher event rates (heart attacks, etc.) than societies with much lower average cholesterol levels. 4) When serum cholesterol levels (especially the low-density lipoprotein cholesterol [LDL-C] level) are lowered (most readily, of course, by statin drugs), atherosclerotic events fall accordingly and the lower the level, the fewer the events (“less is more”). Although most humans consider themselves carnivores or at least omnivores, basically we humans have characteristics of herbivores (Table (Table11)."

>>5654875
>>5654872
>>5654869
>>5654866
>naturalnews
>blogs
>news sites
>opinion columns

remove these and you will look a lot better

as it is you just look like a quack who cherry picked clinical trials to support his argument (which is not how science works)

>>5654872
>>5654869
>>5654866
>>5654875

>that feel when the VIDF finally snaps and just copy/pastes its rolodex of cherry-picked links

RIP my sides you will be missed

>>5654393
I take vegan Omega-3 DHA supplements. Comes from algae. Makes my burps taste delicious. It's not because I'm worried that chia seeds, etc. aren't a good source of omega fatty acids, but just because I'm kind of a junk food vegan so I don't always get that good healthy stuff in my diet.

>>5654879
>paper not study
>paper calls statins the finest drug
I don't think i can trust this.
I'm not even sure it is worth looking at the cited links

>>5654881
The blogs were written by a doctor with 25+ experience in the field of nutrition curing people of diseases, and also links to studies. No point in linking the studies individually when they're all right on that one link.

News site also links to the study, sorry it's just what I had bookmarked and figured anyone who cared could go to the study since I'm pretty sure it's also linked. If not, I'll fix that.

Missed where I posted an opinion column, but again, if I did, I'm sure it linked to studies.

Natural News I had bookmarked. Some of these I read a long time ago. It's just my personal collection of reasons not to eat meat. Don't immediately judge the information by the site it's posted on. But if you have a legitimate concern with any information in any of those sources I'll gladly look into it and fix it if need be.

>>5654881
And a big chunk of the actual scientific sources they picked out, the ones against meat in particular, are flawed in their methods. Every meat study that concludes that red meat is carcinogenic/etc. fails to distinguish between heavily processed meat and a simple cut of beef, let alone the difference between either of those and the pastured/grass-fed stuff.

Then the one about meat and osteoporosis determines that increased calcium excretion in the urine means that the calcium has been leeched from bones; this is falst. Meat does increase calcium in the urine... because it increases the overall absorption of it. You absorb more calcium, you have excess, you excrete it in the urine.

And I clicked through to some of the milk related links, and none that I saw mention what KIND of dairy they used in their studies. Was it reduced fat? Whole milk? Every study I've seen on full-fat dairy shows protective benefits, whereas reduced-fat dairy lacks those benefits.

The "Nutrient Density" link doesn't include things like liver, and I find it hard to believe that eggs and dairy rate so low; go look up the detailed nutrition data of eggs and whole milk, the huge range of vitamins and minerals, and tell me they're not nutrient dense with a straight face.

>>5654911
Be aware that I am by no means saying that people shouldn't eat vegetables. Vegetable matter should be the largest source of your food intake, volume-wise. I'm not arguing that. We need vegetables in order to thrive. We also just tend to thrive better with meat, particularly meat that is wild/pastured/grass-fed.

>>5654911
>And a big chunk of the actual scientific sources they picked out, the ones against meat in particular, are flawed in their methods. Every meat study that concludes that red meat is carcinogenic/etc. fails to distinguish between heavily processed meat and a simple cut of beef, let alone the difference between either of those and the pastured/grass-fed stuff.

You are a shameless liar who did not look at any of the studies and are just regurgitating bullshit you read on a paleo blog. Stopped reading there.

>>5654921
lol ok

>>5654875
>http://www.nutritionmd.org/nutrition_tips/nutrition_tips_understand_foods/dairy.html
>first reference is Harvards Nurse study
hahahahhaaha
No one credibly quotes the harvard nurse study for nutrition anymore. The data is bullshit, every correlation has been found to be inverted.

>>5654909
>it's just what I had bookmarked
do you collect many things this way or just on subjects that require oppressive amounts of leaps of faith? how about your piss? do you keep that in jars in case anybody wants to chalenge the pH of vegan urine?

>>5654921

>i buried you under that pile of links i know you'll never read because you have more of a life and less of an interest in my political dietary belief system than i do, why won't you stay buried?!

i like you. i find you amusing in spite of your batshit crazy beliefs. like jim carrey.

>>5654924
So done with people getting all their "information" from paleo and Atkins diet blogs.

Sorry, I'll keep trusting people with PhD's in their fields over a couple of wannabe dieticians on YouTube.

>>5654939

>people who don't agree with my misinterpretation and misapplication of nutritional science research must get their information from the mirror opposite version of the blogs i get MY information from! oh no, they found me out! quick, appeal to authority!

oh you. you're adorable.

>>5654939
http://www.health.harvard.edu/newsweek/Postmenopausal_hormones_Hormone_therapy.htm
>the Nurses’ Health Study (whose research strongly suggested that estrogen prevented heart disease)
>Moreover, women taking hormones had 50% more heart attacks during the first year.

Even harvard admits they fucked up by using observational studies.

>>5654950
I don't get my information from blogs (unless they link sources and especially if the person writing has over 25 years experience in their field). As you could see if you weren't ridiculously biased and deluded, most of my links were to medical journals.

You people are really shameless, lol.

>>5654973
You will always be judged by the weakest of your arguments. If you have "good" sources, only use those.

We do not have the time or need to wade through hours of bullshit to find truth. We will either look at the first link, or a random link. Determine it's validity and go from there.

Don't think it is just imageboard laziness either, Journal editors do the same thing. Peer reviewers will do the same thing. We simply cannot trust anything you say until you retract the lies and mistruths.

>>5654973
Because blogs that you don't read don't EVER cite their sources, right? Not a single paleo blog cites medical research. Of course. Nope. Not one.

>>5654924
>http://www.nutritionmd.org/nutrition_tips/nutrition_tips_understand_foods/dairy.html
>>5654971

"Milk is touted for preventing osteoporosis, yet clinical research shows otherwise. The Harvard Nurses’ Health Study,1 which followed more than 75,000 women for 12 years, showed no protective effect of increased milk consumption on fracture risk. In fact, increased intake of calcium from dairy products was associated with a higher fracture risk."

Research is ongoing and evidence towards something is merely evidence for a long time. The study wasn't "wrong" if it showed evidence towards something that wasn't 100% always the case.

I have a feeling you're misinterpreting the study, or most likely, never even read it. Are you talking about phyto-estrogens? Did they actually state it was the hormones themselves or was their merely evidence towards that and you're just eager to say the study was wrong so you're intentionally misunderstanding it?

And you can't say "hur durr the evidence was misleading" about one aspect of the study when what was cited in the link I posted was about something completely different that you didn't address at all.

>>5654973

>everyone who disagrees with my approach is biased and deluded! they don't have The Secret™
>b-but m-m-muh authority

make sure you get some extra protein tonight, sugarplums. you'll need it after shadowboxing the bogeyman all day.

>mfw you think copy/pasting the contents of blogs that make money from the politicization of your nutritional choices means you're battling the evil empire of ravenou carnivores
>mfw you think logical fallacies will ever pass muster when actual nutritional scientists are reading
>mfw you think those of us in the field don't laugh at your hysterical and unscientific acception/rejection of our research exclusively because they support or do not support the belief system you use to feel plugged in and relevant as a human being on anonymous imageboards

>>5654980
Paleo blogs link to studies from the '80s that have long been proven wrong by even the researchers themselves...

>>5654986
That's quite the blanket statement

>>5654983
Sorry I'm having an extremely hard/amusing time believing you're a nutritional scientist.

Most of my family is in the medical field and I'm going to school to become a dietician. Would that make any difference if I'm posting articles touting the benefits of arsenic?

>>5654986
>muh universal troof
>muh stereotypes
>muh fragile bubble
>b-but i said i agree with science!

>>5654986
Uh, no? Mark Sisson, for example, regularly links to very recent research, and he's just the only one whose name I know off the top of my head who does that. He cites a source in-text for pretty much every single statement he makes, and it's all recent and relevant research.

>>5654982
If the study is wrong about links between estrogen supplements and heart attacks
It could just as likely be wrong about osteoporosis.

My point is that the study was not designed to be evidence, should not be used as evidence, and should not be trusted as evidence. But obviously that isn't good enough for you so lets go back to harvard.

http://www.hsph.harvard.edu/nutritionsource/calcium-full-story/

>or example, in the large Harvard studies of male health professionals and female nurses, individuals who drank one glass of milk (or less) per week were at no greater risk of breaking a hip or forearm than were those who drank two or more glasses per week. (2, 3)

Not only is your source mistaking observational studies for clinical research, It can't even fucking quote the articles properly.

>>5654999
>p-please w-wait while i furiously google that name so i can find a reason not to consider anything anybody says in opposition to my belief system

this jerkoff is gonna come back at you with some shit about how mark sisson has an unpaid parking ticket in schenectady from 1977 and crawl back inside his fortress of solitude.

vegan internet defense force is the worst. especially for other vegans.

>>5654995
http://www.ars.usda.gov/Main/docs.htm?docid=10906

Arsonic deficiency has a side effect of death. Not listed in this link, but the link does mention the importance of arsonic in diet.

>>5654996
Paleo diets are a joke to the medical community, or basically anyone who knows anything about nutrition and doesn't base their beliefs about it on misunderstood notions about our ancestors.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BMOjVYgYaG8

Are "paleo" diets healthier than the Standard American Diet? Sure. But acting like it's the healthiest diet there is is extremely ignorant. And they have to really twist information to get people to believe that.

>>5654874
Saying the land and water that is used for the livestock can be used to grow edible grain, etc for humans

>>5654874
http://www.news.cornell.edu/stories/1997/08/us-could-feed-800-million-people-grain-livestock-eat

>>5655025
Also this.^

>>5655021
>still shadowboxing that strawman
>the paleos are coming for muh science!
>twisted information
>muh conspiracy
>they're coming for muh quinoa with their paleo carn rage!!!

i'm sure your hempseed fuel defense system will keep the lights on in your tofu fort when the ravenous bands of cannibalcarnivore paleos come for your atrophied osteoporotic carcass.

>>5655021
>a joke to the medical community
You realize that most people in the medical community aren't even nutritionists? Most doctors don't receive any training at all on nutrition, they're just going off the same resources the common man has.

>>5655034
Yeah actually I do realize that. Couldn't think of a better way to put it I guess. Should have said experts in the field of nutrition.

>>5655034
By the way, anyone can call themselves a nutritionist.

>>5655031
Leaving aside the accuracy of the numbers, as there is no source, or notes to revue, this guy is making a blatant mistake. He forgot to consult a economist.

The USA is saying farmers around 2 billion not to grow crops. The government pays out an additional 13 billion in insurance and income stability.

So more exports don't seem important. In fact we would rather pay 15 billion dollars to limit the amount of food exports, and keep an artificially raised price. Which brings up the seconds point.

With this much more grain on the market, what will it do to prices? Probably lower them.

Point three. There is about 100 million tons of wheat of rice in various warehouse around the world. Enough to feed the planet for 3-4 years. So much that it has started going bad and needs to be thrown out and replaced. Why do we want more wheat?

Dittic occasionally

>>5655050
Which is why the term certified nutritionist is the important one.

>>5655047
>muh experts
>muh authority
>muh manufactured consensus

a half dead bat still has eyesight enough to spot your agenda. here's a tip, chucklenuts: you will never, ever, find a "way, truth, and light" in nutritional science. join a religion or an MLM if you need something to believe in.

>>5655054
1. I skimmed through your post because I don't care that much to be honest but
2. I think the point of the person who posted what started this little debate was that it's a ridiculous waste of resources.
3. Am I supposed to be concerned about prices being lowered for food? So much tax money is used to make animal products cheaper, animals are being horrifically abused as standard practice in factory farms, our health is being put at great risk, the environment is being destroyed, and this is what I'm supposed to care about?

>>5655076
Since the opening quote says "enough to feed 800,000 people" The article seems to think feeding is important. Hence why I say feeding people is not needed, and additional food will just have a negative effect on the economy.

As for resources, what resources? plants are renewable, water is renewable.

Even if water were to hypothetically be used faster than it replenished. Of the 1.3bil km^3 2.5% is fresh. .3% is surface water. with 1.5bil cows, at 1000lbs and 100,000 liters per lbs
that works to..... somewhere around 5 billion dollars to replace all the water with desalinated water from plants (assuming 50 cents per cubic meter of water desalinated)

With the world meat industry being worth over 800billion dollars, we can reasonably assume price increases of less than 1% to adjust to this new cost.

>>5655014
Dude why do you even try so hard? He's an idiot who just reads plantpositive and nutritionfacts. You really think he actually plugs into the nutritional community (which truthfully is a newbie to the scientific method) and debates fellow peers who have done work several years in the field?

Forget it, just move on. Don't feed the vegan, just like his diet, you'll have to be feeding him all day long...

>>5655021
I'm sorry to say, I'm not Jim but he's one hell of a fellow. Love you Jim. Anyway, you completely lack any logos and knowledge in debating. You're horrible at it. When did you start assuming he was a proponent of the paleo diet? You're really sad, you know that? We all agree that most our food should be vegetables, variety of protein from surf and turf and avoid all processed junk/foods oh and start drinking water instead of coke.

You're not really making a case, you're just pulling one fallacy after the other.

Our new vegan friend has taught me a lot.

It is important to critically evaluate your sources. For instance, which cholesterol study is more valid? One from 1993, or another from 2008? Do the conclusions objectively parallel the study? (Look at the nonsense article about mercury in plastic bags.) Understand who did the study and what influenced them to do so.

Study biochemistry. How many nutritional suggestions that this user posts are based on highly improbable circumstance or chemically impossible altogether? Getting vitamin B12 from dirt, bioavalable vitamin K2 from vegetables, and manufacturing short chain fatty acids from long chain fatty acids are all statistically similar to winning the lottery. Also, look at the gem about Eskimos who have genetically evolved to avid ketosis. Where is the chemical energy process coming from? Willpower?

Put your money where your mouth is. Get your blood work done. Compete in real athletic events against real people. Challenge your mind. See if what you are doing is actually working, or if you are just unfortunately misguided. Do you think that everyone is biochemically identical? Why just take someone's work for it? Know for sure!

>>5655172
Do not let your diet be your religion. How many of Esselstyn and Ornish's celebrity patients have had severe health complications, or even have died because they refused to change their diets when they were clearly not working? Bill Clinton, Steve Jobs, and others got medical advice about on par with Michael Jackson's doctor. Could the same thing be true for a hyperthyroid patient drinking bulletproof coffee every day on the Bulletproof plan? Call me arrogant, but it is our personal responsibility to find and evaluate food sources that work best for us. If you eat food because a cave man did it, or because Dr. Oz told you to do it, are you really making the best decisions? Why not find out for yourself?

How comforting is it that we have the ability to alter the course of our diet as needed? When we are not tied down to dogmatic principals, we can actually do what is best for us to be in an optimal state.

>>5655173
The countries health has been getting worse and worse as we move away from animal based fats.

Individuals, and select studies have found an improvement in health as they consumed more animal fats. Is paleo the ideal diet? probably not. But I do believe it is better than the standard diet.

Personally I eat potatoes. I drink milk. I enjoy my foods, but I do not shy away from saturated fat and sodium.

>>5655182
>The countries health has been getting worse and worse as we move away from animal based fats.
>Pure opinion based on very vague information with no sources

>#1 cause of death is heart disease
>Heart disease can be reversed through a plant based diet
>Diabetes too

>>5655182
country's*

>>5655202
Sure you cure one thing, another thing bites you in the back because "plant based" is so vague, no ordinary person by themselves would be able to go through with it unless you prescribed them a nutritionist/MD to hold their hands.

You're an idiot and you live in an illusion. IF you really care about people you would acknowledge that the best thing to do is to get people off of processed foods and high sugary drinks and encourage them to eat more vegetables. As it stands, the average American consumes way too much dairy, animal protein and grains.

>>5655220
Just to add, if you don't believe me go through your "plant based" community and look how so many of you are struggling and needing advice to follow this diet. A lot of people end up supplementing and if you ask me, that is proof your diet doesn't work. I'm sorry but I wish you'd wake up from your brainwashing, it's not something you can just roll out on a global or even national scale.

>>5655220
>>5655225
You can learn as you go gradually. You don't know how to cook any foods until you read something. You don't know what a person, , vehicle, instrument, movie, game, book, etc. has going on until you spend a lot of time with them learning

>>5655202
>pure opinion
>direct inverse correlation between animal based fat consumption as percentage of total diet and obesity.
Only one of these is correct, and it isn't pure opinion.

All heart disease reversal claims are skeptical at best, lies at worst. The meat crowd makes them too.

Diabetes, can be managed with practically any group of foods. Hell, we were treating type 1 diabetics before we invented insulin. But regardless of the diet, the key has been and always will be low amounts of refined carbohydrates. So no sugars, and no flours. In many ways it is easier with all meat than with all vegetative matter.

>>5655220
I would agree with the way to much grains, however animal protein has been stagnant for the last 200 years, and dairy has so many benefits. If diary were linked to poor health, the countries that eat more dairy than the usa would most likely be in equal or worse health, yet their general markers are all up.

>>5655255
No actually it's been proven to help cure heart disease as well as be more effective than the ADA's diet recommendations for curing diabetes.

http://www.thepermanentejournal.org/issues/2013/spring/5117-nutrition.html

Quit making absolute statements on topics you know nothing or next to nothing about. Thanks.

>>5655260
They have higher rates of hip fractures, etc.

Any benefits from dairy can be provided from plants. And it has way more detrimental effects.

Carcinogenic casein, IGF-1, etc., addictive casomorphins, acne promoting - just scroll up in this thread for more.

http://www.hsph.harvard.edu/nutritionsource/calcium-and-milk/

>>5655260
gross stuff is pus, or as the industry calls “somatic cells”. This is in every bag or carton of milk, along with the fecal residue, disinfectants and cleaners, and who knows what else


Since female mammals can only produce milk during and after pregnancy, all cows are raped once a year to impregnate them. A bare hand or long steel
device is shoved into their vaginas to inject them with bull semen. Around 9.5 months later, moments after giving birth, babies are stolen from their
mothers. From a business standpoint, the dairy industry has to steal babies to prevent the calves from sucking up the milk they want to sell to the public.

Machines are hooked up to the protruding udders of cows several times a day to suck them dry. Along with countless drugs and Bovine Growth Hormone
injections, infections and pus form inside and outside of the udder. Then the pus is sucked out with the milk! Pasteurization, which cleans the pus
but does not eliminate it, creates a concoction of sanitized pus. The national average hovers around 350 million pus cells per liter, which means
that each glass of milk has around an eye-dropper full of pus! From time to time, The Hoard's Dairyman and other dairy industry trade journals discuss
the pus problem. Cows raised on organic/antibiotic-free/hormone-free/grass-fed/local facilities don't produce pus-free milk either. In fact, organic
milk has more pus than non-organic milk because when cows get infections, as they always do, medicines aren't used to treat the malady. Thus, more pus
accumulates in the system. Soy, rice, almond, hemp, coconut, oat, flax and hazelnut milks (the vegan ones)—along with human breast milk—are the only pus-free milks.

>>5655303
>all cows are raped once a year
that part made me lol

>>5652318
>vegan
>how about NO

>>5655324
They're forcibly impregnated through someone sticking their arm up their ass and a metal tube up their vagina. They use what is literally called a rape rack to keep the cows in place while they do this. Then they have their babies taken from them usually immediately after birth. There have been police reports from people living near dairy farms because of the loud grieving noises they make each year when their babies are taken from them.

>But lol it didn't happen to a human and it isn't (always) sexual in nature so who cares?

>>5655359
Why are you so envious of the fact that you aren't the one impregnating these cows?

>>5655303
>eww, isn't this completely normal thing disgusting?
>I can't believe you put that milennia-tested product in your mouth, I would literally barf
vegan logic.

>>5655370
It was once considered normal to eat your own shit too.

>>5654860

>>5654860

>>5655364

ITT: butthurt attentionwhore libfag vegans get super defensive.

VIDF pls go.

>>5655470
Meat, dairy, and eggs taste awesome, but they're unhealthy addictions that if you have some self control you can overcome. It helps if and when you have any intelligence or emotion about the realities of the production

>>5655470
>>5655528
Also, white bread is terrible. Get some whole grains. Come on.

>>5655528
>realities of the production

>implying I don't work on a farm

Iowabro here: you have no idea how my family and I run this place nor do you have any idea how profitable livestock farming is.

>>5655548
qt pigs

>>5655548
Look, I'm not paying you to do it, and I don't think any people oughta be paying you or any person to do it. So make your own choices

>>5655548
lol is someone actually trying to brag about breeding pigs for a living, AND living in Iowa?

>>5655567
>make your own choices
I made my choice to produce a product that is in high demand and very profitable.

>I don't think any people oughta be paying you or any person to do it.

A lot of people, producers and consumers alike, disagree with you.

Hog farmers in the United States alone produced about $97 billion (yes, billion) in revenues, over $6 billion in exports, with about $22 billion in profit.

>http://www.nppc.org/pork-facts/

>>5655580
It's good money in a state without overbearing taxes

>>5655548
That image is from North Carolina, bro.

http://www.unc.edu/courses/2009fall/econ/051/001/hogs/hgfarmer.htm

We might not know how you run your place, but we know standard practice in 95% of farms, bro.

>>5655609
I know where the pic came from. I don't have a pic of my own farm on this computer (not home right now).

>>5654393

>While it does transform to EPA and DHA in your body, it does so at a very very bad efficiency

That's a myth

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20861171

Vegans are much better at turning ALA into EPA and DHA than fish/meat eaters, just like they are with beta carotene and vitamin A. Flax seeds are the best source of omega-3 on the planet

>>5655255

>All heart disease reversal claims are skeptical at best, lies at worst

The works of Esselstyn and Ornish are well accepted and respected. They're published, peer-reviewed clinical trials, not random claims. Ornish's program is even covered by medicare.

>In many ways it is easier with all meat than with all vegetative matter.

Have you ever heard of Vilhjalmur Stefansson? He went with a colleague of his to live with the Inuit for a year, eating their traditional diet, which is virtually 100% meat, and by the end of it they both had diabetes.

>>5655286
>acne promoting

I swear to allah, jesus whatever. Once I started getting off of dairy (cereal every morning, chocolate milk through the day and all other products with dairy) and went veggies + meat, I swear to god all my fucking acne disappeared. I'm completely clean now.

Fuck dairy, for real.

>>5655649
Great, bro. Now tell me this. I'm at high risk for gallstones. Every fucking MD suggests I increase bile turnover. How do I do that? Oooh.. high fucking fat diet. Fuck your shit man, you're so narrow minded all you see is HEART DISEASE HEART DISEASE HEART DISEASE HEART DISEASE HEART DISEASE HEART DISEASE HEART DISEASE HEART DISEASE. What about other things that can happen to you? What about each and everyone's individual health and pre-existing conditions? You're not a friend to humanity, you're an egoistical shill.

>>5655649

>>5655172
>>5655173

>>5654904

It's from the annual Williamsburg heart disease conference. The guy being quoted is William C. Roberts, the editor of the American Journal of Cardiology, who is considered one of the world leaders in heart health.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_C._Roberts

You're also misquoting him. He considers statins the finest cardiovascular drug, not the best overall drug. While statins aren't ideal, they do save lives and quite quickly, and they're an especially important tool for patients who refuse to change their diet even after being diagnosed with severe artery disease.

>>5655698

What are those posts trying to say? "Nobody knows anything, reality isn't real, therefore do whatever you want"?

>>5655724
essentially
personally advocate trying all sorts of diets and picking the one that works best for you

>>5655608
because taxes are always, inherently bad. Who needs things like roads, schools, fire protection, police officers, etc. anyway?

>>5655658
>I'll take strawman arguments and other logical fallacies for 400, Alex.

>>5655728

That leads to the original problem, which is people picking whatever diet they like rather than a diet that's healthy. There just isn't enough genetic variability in human beings to say that everyone has individual, wildly different dietary requirements. It's like a Native American claiming cigarettes aren't bad for him like they are for the white man, because his people are genetically suited to smoking tobacco

>>5655733
The statement is true. The animals don't enjoy any of it. They're put through all this because people are "lovin' it"

>>5655751
Comparing rape to eating meat is a straw man argument. Assuming that all animals that are eaten are treated like those in factory farms is astoundingly ignorant. Assuming that all knackerers are incompetent is an insult to the craft. As someone who patronizes family farms, hunts, fishes and preserves food, I'd be willing to bet that my environmental impact is less than most vegans.

>>5655760

>Don't compare killing to rape, it makes me look like an asshole!

also

>Assuming that all animals that are eaten are treated like those in factory farms is astoundingly ignorant.

Let me do the rape apologist version of that. "Not all rape is violent, sometimes the woman is gently sedated, and what's wrong with THAT?"

>>5655760
If animals go into slaughterhouses alive
and come out chopped up into hundreds of pieces, how could anyone claim that they aren't being mistreated, abused, tortured and terrorized? How in the world could SLAUGHTERING BILLIONS of INNOCENT beings be done with love, humanity and concern?

there
is no such thing as happy and humane slaughter just as there is no such thing as happy and human rape, happy and humane slavery, or happy and
humane child molestation. From the animals' point of view, anyone who commodifies their bodies is equally vicious

More importantly, veganism is an ethical lifestyle decision. Just like people who have decided not to rape women, wantonly kill humans or molest
children, vegans have expanded their circles of compassion and decided not to rape women, wantonly kill humans, molest children nor support the
killing of animals. Once an ethical decision has been made, it will be done. Until you've made this decision, excuses will be plentiful. Once you choose veganism, all excuses fall by the wayside

>>5655770
You keep parading that straw man out, and every time, it gets some more stuffing knocked out of it. You most likely live in an apartment in a major city somewhere. As such, you have no knowledge of the depth and breadth of agriculture or sport harvesting. Again, assuming that a free-ranged heirloom breed pig is treated the same as a factory farmed pinky in a concrete bunker is astoundingly ignorant. I'm beginning to suspect that you aren't actually a vegan and are merely satirizing them.

>>5655773

And the health attributes are a bonus. Some would call it cosmic justice; rewarding kind people with better health

>>5655773
There are degrees of humane slaughter. Again, factory farming is monstrous. however, when a skilled knackerer (either the farmer or a tradesman going door to door) does the job, it's fairly quick and relatively painless. Of course, you know nothing about farming beyond what you read in PETA propaganda, so I don't expect you to understand this. Again, I'd be willing to bet that from an ethical standpoint, my lifestyle is less harmful to the environment than someone who lives in an apartment in an urban area.

>>5655780

I'm not the guy who brought up rape, I just provided some extra insight. Google what a strawman is, 'cause that ain't a strawman, it's a comparison. The closest fallacy you could accuse it of is false equivalence, and even that doesn't completely hold up.

>>5655782
i don't think an amino acid defiency and being skinny fat is better health, anon. You have the canines, smaller masticatory muscles and short digestive tract of an omnivore. If you wish to deny this, that is fine.

>>5655789

>if you slaughter them NICELY, it's okay

>>5655789
You don't have to like Peta to be vegan
Fuck Peta

>>5655286
Did you miss the harvard link stating that the nurses study showed no increase in osteoporosis. Yet it is the #1 goto study. When science doesn't agree with you just make shit up and lie.

>>5655796
Always with the absolutism, like a true fanatic. Of course, what is to be expected from people that support groups that believe releasing pathogen infected animals into the wild is the "right thing" to do. Ever seen what wolves, coyotes, cougars, bears, or chimps do to their prey? Of course not, you've never left the city. No, slaughter is not pretty. No, it is not kind. Not everything in this world is. The sooner you come to that realization, the better you will be

>>5655795

>canines of an omnivore

What, those dull nubs a quarter of a centimeter longer than the rest of your teeth? Canines don't mean meat-eater, much less the shitty canines humans have.

>>5655796
I like that you assume that by humane slaughter I was talking about captive bolts. I know that those make for the graphical material that jibes well with your hysterical propaganda, but the fact is that a skilled knackerer uses the same thing that has worked for centuries: A big ass mallet or a slit throat. if you'd like, I can show you my video on field dressing deer so you won't be confused anymore.

>>5655810
and here's a muntjak. What's you're point? Notice the large masticatory muscles of the gorilla, as well. Notice that they, like the panda have to supplement their largely herbivorous diet with meat occasionally to support their health. as they are not yet fully adapted to it. At this point, i'm convinced you are not a vegan, but a troll attempting to make them all look like a bunch of hysterical imbeciles.

>>5655807

And now you go for the classic "it's okay to be a bad person, nature is cruel." Well how does that not justify everything in the world? If I wanted to beat you up and take your money, would I be justified since that's just nature being cruel? This is always where the argument leads. You don't want people to do bad to you, but you have no problem doing bad to others. Maybe if you were a baboon or a hyena, you could excuse yourself, but as a human in a first world country you just look like an asshole

>>5655822
damn, pic related

>>5655796
How is someone leaving their dog to you and you killing it at all the same as raising cattle and then slaughtering them humanely

Like for real

How is it the same in any capacity

>>5655830

>slaughtering them humanely

"raping her respectfully"

>>5655830
Because without logical fallacies and hysteria, vegans wouldn't be able to convince soft minded city folk to join their cult.

>>5655815
Not him but I'd like to watch the video out of curiosity.

>>5655831
Dawg, which is more humane: Killing an animal near instantaneously so that it feels little to no pain, or killing an animal nature's way: by starvation, dehydration, or being eaten alive?

>>5655831
You didn't answer my question at all

>>5655825
And there you go with the straw men again, is that your favorite fallacy or something? I think the biggest asshole is in fact the malnourished poltroon that tells others they are bad people because they don't think and live exactly as they do. Also, as always, i would be willing to bet that my lifetstyle is better for the environment than yours.

>>5655842
>Something irrelevant about cavemen
The sheer ignorance and lack of regard for any understanding of biology in general, human physiology and evolution inherent in this statement is stunningly hilarious.

>>5655843
Fun Fact: Hitler was a vegetarian. Mother teresa was not. So, buy your metric, vegans, hitler is an objectively better person than mother teresa?

>>5655836

Not killing the animal at all. By your logic, we should be killing everything we see, including humans, to make sure they don't die in a more painful way later on

>>5655831
>This shitty strawman hasn't worked at all, but maybe if I keep repeating it, at least I'll believe it.

>>5655851
> By your logic, we should be killing everything we see, including humans, to make sure they don't die in a more painful way later on
No, not really at all. That's your insane vegetarian/vegan logic spinning the fuck out of control.
>Wow, you think that if you eat an animal you should kill it in a way that causes it very little to no pain? So you're ACTUALLY arguing for complete and immediate genocide of all species on the grounds of alleviating suffering?
How retarded can you be?

>>5655851
And there's another straw man.

>>5655273
> vs ada diet
no. It was vegetarian diet vs unrestricted diet. Or more importantly a low calorie diet vs a unrestricted diet. A diet that limited grains vs a unrestricted diet. A diet accompanied by a increase in exercise vs a unrestricted diet and no mandated exercise.

Eat less move more does not equal proof that a vegan diet is superior.

>>5655857
As i've said, I'm convinced that this is a troll satirizing vegans.

>>5655861
This guy has a hardon for logical fallacies. If he is not a troll, he is proof that a lack of amino acids causes cognitive impairments

>>5655857

>No, not really at all. That's your insane vegetarian/vegan logic spinning the fuck out of control.

No, that's the full scope of the statement you made. You started with "we need to kill cows because if we don't, they'll die in a worse way." If that's not what you meant to say, let me know. If it is, and you're expression concern for the cow and implying that you're doing it a favor by killing it, then why doesn't it apply to anything else? Why isn't it humane to kill a human child instead of letting them die in the future of natural causes? You can't make an argument like that and then only use it in a context where you can benefit. If you say something, mean it

>>5655872
Nope. He never said that. Putting words in other people's mouths has not worked for you so far tonight, why do you keep doing it. Do you live near a college? I would recommend that you take a basic logic course, this is embarassing. I think you've covered just about all of these:
https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/

>>5655874

What did he mean to say then?

>>5655649
See my previous post on ornish, as for steffeson. No diabetes.
http://www.thepermanentejournal.org/issues/2013/spring/5117-nutrition.html

when will the flat out lying end? You do realise you are supposed to read these studies and papers right? You can't just make up results.

>>5655878
He merely posed an IF question stating: If an animal is to be killed for food, which is better; nature's way or the stroke of a knife or mallet? You somehow generalized that into anon stating that all animals should be killed to prevent suffering, regardless of necessity or impact on biodiversity.

>>5655883

What was your post on Ornish? The one where you just said "nope" and expected your opinion based on nothing to be accepted over proven medical practice? Unfounded denial is not a proper response

Tell me veganon, how do you feel about the culling of invasive species? Such as nutria? How about zebra mussels? Tiger prawns?

>>5655715
> statins
> save lives

while I do agree that they lower serum cholesterol, every single epidemiological study shows that they increase the rate of heart attacks and other cardiovascular incidents. While I dont normally like observation studies, it is a good place to start and ask "what is this drug actually doing?"

Considering the current understanding that cholesterol protects the arteries from inflammation, I would say statins are likely doing great harm.

>>5655887

What's the point of an IF question, if not to infer something? When we're talking about something humane, slaughter doesn't enter the discussion. The definition of humane is "having or showing compassion or benevolence." How is killing something showing compassion or benevolence? It doesn't matter if you think you're doing it in a kind way, if you don't want someone to drive a bolt through your head when you're not looking, don't do it to someone else

>>5655850
Just because a character in Watchmen says it doesn't make it true

In an attempt to defile the animal rights movement, meat, dairy and egg-eaters often proclaim that Hitler practiced vegetarianism. However,
biographers Albert Speer and Robert Payne attested to Hitler's love for liver dumplings, stuffed squab [pigeon], ham and sausage. German Chef
Dione Lucas wrote about Hitler's carnivorism in her Gourmet Cooking School Cookbook, published in 1964. Rynn Berry's Hitler: Neither Vegetarian
Nor Animal Lover describes how Goebbels, The Third Reich's propaganda minister, tried to sell Hitler as a vegetarian to make him seem as peaceful
as Gandhi. The next section in this series, HITLER WAS NOT VEGETARIAN, provides ample evidence that, contrary to a good deal of popular
misconception, Hitler and his henchmen were not vegetarians at all.

>>5655898

Before Ornish did his paper, Esselstyn cured heart disease in his patients with a combination of diet and statins. He saw no cardiac events in his patients.

>Considering the current understanding that cholesterol protects the arteries from inflammation, I would say statins are likely doing great harm.

What, by lowering your cholesterol to a healthy range? This "cholesterol is a nutrient, high cholesterol is good" bullshit is something you read exclusively on insane fad diet internet blogs

>>5655810
>Says little nubs arent omnivore
>posts picture of big canines
> picture is of a herbavore

>>5655906
The point of an If question, especially one where two absolutes are produced is to draw the answerer to an inductive conclusion. If you had even a rudimentary grasp of logic, you would understand this. I know that captive bolts make it easier to be a hysterical zealot, but you are consistently the only one that brings them up. Again, painting family farms as being the exact same as factory farms is an insult to the fine, hard working (have you done anything approaching actual work in your life? check your priviledge) folks that work them and I ask that you cease and desist until you leave your apartment and visit one first hand. No, slaughter is not benevolent. Neither is spraying chemicals on produce or destroying native biomes to raise produce. There is nothing compassionate about poisoning watersheds with fertilizers. If you think you are morally superior for being vegan, I defy you to compare your carbon foot print and ecological impact to my own.

>>5655918

As if to say "even grass-and-leaf eating herbivores have bigger canines than you"

>>5655918
A herbivore that has adapted from being a carnivore, and as such still needs to supplement its diet with meat. The fangs also have a function in showing dominance over others, much like the "fangs" of the muntjac or the tusks of an elephant.

>>5655891
861
sorry didnt mention him by name

>>5655920

The problem is the two choices you gave, if we're talking about what we can do with an animal, are not the only two choices that exist. Neither choice can just be "humane by default." The humane choice is to not kill the animal. If you don't consider that an option, or if you consider that to mean the same as option 2, then what I said earlier about killing everything applies.

>>5655935
There is no answer to the question posed where the animal's death is not an inevitability. You seem to enjoy absolutism, why is this so hard for you to grasp? Perhaps you should visit a doctor and have him test you; i suspect that malnutrition is negatively affecting your critical thinking processes.

>>5655929

I'm confused then, I don't see how that post applied to Dean Ornish's lifestyle intervention trial. Are you thinking of Neal Barnard's type 2 diabetes reversal study? In that one, it was his unrestricted (calorie-wise) low-fat vegan diet versus the ADA recommendations which were calorie-controlled. Both groups ended up eating the same amount of calories, but the vegan participants still managed to lose a little more weight and as a group had much better bloodwork and had more people reduce their medication

>>5655935
No, what you said about killing everything does not apply. The question states that an animal is being killed in order to be eaten, and yet somehow, you spin that to mean that the best way to prevent suffering when killing animals is to kill them all. Of course, this assumes that everyone else has as tenuous of a grasp of hard sciences such as ecology and biology as you do.

>>5655941

>There is no answer to the question posed where the animal's death is not an inevitability.

Okay, then you bullshitted your way out of taking responsibility for what I called you out on. Like I said, if you say something, mean what you say

>>5655954
You have called out no one on anything. I and others have been perfectly clear, and yet you keep trying to put words in our mouths and spin what we say. You have stated that all types of meat producing farms are exactly the same, and that an animal being killed "naturally" is the same as being bled out or knackered. You have posted strawman after strawman, made hasty generalizations and generally embarassed intelligent vegans (of which I know a few) everywhere.

>>5655952

> The question states that an animal is being killed in order to be eaten

So what exactly do the 2 options imply? The first option is you killing them, and the second option is what? Letting them live until they die naturally? The question is if it's more humane to kill something or let it live? Or in that scenario are you acting as nature and artificially simulating the end of the creature's life prematurely as a means to kill it?

>>5655914
Esselstyn. The same guy who called clinton during a wedding because he saw him eating bread on the tv? "No bread clinton, even vegans get diabetes,"
Obviously veganism isn't a cureall.

Esselstyn the same man who claimed "no one get heart attack with syrum cholesterol under 150" despite 75% of heart attacks sufferers have low cholesterol?
http://newsroom.ucla.edu/releases/majority-of-hospitalized-heart-75668

And if you don't know how cholesterol works in the body, I suggest you go back to school and take a biology course.

>>5655949
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/1973470/

By definition alone, slaughter and slavery are radically cruel and can never be humane even if animals live on free-range/freedom/organic/cage-free/antibiotic-free/hormone-free/grass-fed/local farms, or are murdered with a 'knife and a prayer' in accordance with ancient religious blood-draining customs.

As for the 10 billion land animals enslaved and killed in America every year, please don't think they will be running rampant through the city streets when everyone becomes vegan. The meat, dairy and egg industries artificially impregnate hundreds of millions of land animals to create 10 billion animals to sell to 300 million meat, dairy and egg-addicted Americans. Since the basic principles of supply-and-demand are always at play, the animal slave-trade will become unprofitable once people stop buying and eating animal products; each meat, dairy and egg-eater is responsible for the deaths of 3,000 land animals and 5,000-6,000 thousand marine animals throughout their lifetime!

>>5655971

>Obviously veganism isn't a cureall.

Nobody said you can eat any food that isn't from an animal and be completely healthy by default. White bread isn't good for you, and Esselstyn's program isn't about "being vegan," it's about eating healthy food and avoiding unhealthy food, be it vegan food or animal food. I don't know what kind of point you're trying to make

>Esselstyn the same man who claimed "no one get heart attack with syrum cholesterol under 150" despite 75% of heart attacks sufferers have low cholesterol?

The link you posted isn't referring to people who had cholesterol under 150mg/dl, but rather the national standards of what the accepted cholesterol range is, which many would argue is too high since it focuses on "low risk" rather than Esselstyn's approach of "no risk." The 150 number isn't something Esselstyn made up. Here's William C. Roberts talking about atherosclerosis

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1312295/

>What level of total cholesterol and specifically LDL cholesterol is required for atherosclerotic plaques to develop? Symptomatic and fatal atherosclerosis is extremely uncommon in societies where serum total cholesterol levels are <150 mg/dL and serum LDL cholesterol levels are <100 mg/dL (8). If the LDL cholesterol level is <100— and possibly it needs to be <80 mg/dL—the other previously mentioned risk factors in and of themselves are not associated with atherosclerosis. In other words, if the serum total cholesterol is 90 to 140 mg/dL, there is no evidence that cigarette smoking, systemic hypertension, diabetes mellitus, inactivity, or obesity produces atherosclerotic plaques. Hypercholesterolemia is the only direct atherosclerotic risk factor; the others are indirect. If, however, the total cholesterol level is >150 mg/dL and the LDL cholesterol is >100 mg/dL, the other risk factors clearly accelerate atherosclerosis.

> killing everything
it's the Christian paradox.
at the time of baptism a child's soul is clean. Killing them would guarantee access into heaven.
so all good christians should slaughter their children. But none do.

>>5655994
Your correct. Only 17.6% of patients had ldl under 70. 50% under 100.

>>5655803
I don't care if you like PETA or not. I understand if people don't like their methods or whatever, cool, good for you, I'm not a big fan of a lot of them myself although I'm not going to ignore all the great things they have done. (I'm a bigger fan of Mercy For Animals. Donate to them often.)

But citing petakillsanimals.com fills me with rage because that site is run by people who are paid by those who profit from animal abuse in order to smear the names of the most effective animal rights/welfare groups.

Look up the Center For Consumer Freedom/Rick Berman/Berman & Co.

You can still hate PETA if you want but PLEASE never cite that page again. They are master manipulators. It's literally their job.

>>5655993
>by my narrow minded definition supported by un-cited "statistics" and hysteria.
If everyone became vegan, you would all have to find some other way to assert your moral superiority over us mundanes. It's not about animal welfare. It's not about being healthy. It's about making other people feel bad for not being as "pure" as you. You're not fooling anyone. Guess what happens when the fertilizers (yes, even the natural ones) used to grow your precious vegetables runoff into streams? If you truly want to do the best thing for the precious animals and the environment, kill yourself and convince your friends to do the same.

>>5655892
I like that the vegans refused to even touch this one. It's like they can't into ecology or something. Which is to expected of privileged white people that have never left the suburbs/city.

>>5656000
>But none do.
Bullshit.

>>5655913
Too bad that's all bullshit. Hitler was vegetarian from 1938 onward. Deal with it. In fact, In a rather ironic twist, most of the laws on the books regarding animal cruelty in Germany were devised by heinrich himmler.

Arluke & Sanders 1996, p. 148. Quoted from Wuttke-Groneberg, W. (1980). Medizin im Nationalsozialismus. Tübingen: Schwabische Verlaggesellschaft.
Jump up ^ Phayre, Ignatius (November 1938). "Hitler's Mountain Home". Homes & Gardens. pp. 193–195.
Jump up ^ Bullock, Alan (1993). Hitler and Stalin : Parallel Lives. Vintage. p. 679. ISBN 0-679-72994-1.
^ Jump up to: a b Hitler, Adolph; Hugh Trevor-Roper (trans.) (2000). "Hitler's Table Talk: 1941-1944". Section 66 (Enigma Books). ISBN 1-929631-05-7.
Jump up ^ Goebbels, Joseph; Louis P. Lochner (trans.) (1993). The Goebbels Diaries. Charter Books. p. 679. ISBN 0-441-29550-9.
Jump up ^ Hitler, A., & Cameron, Norman (2000). Hitler's Table Talk. Enigma Books. ISBN 1-929631-05-7
Jump up ^ Bruce Braun, Noel Castree (1998). Remaking Reality: Nature at the Millenium. Routledge. p. 92. ISBN 0-415-14493-0.
Jump up ^ Dione Lucas (1964). The Gourmet Cooking School Cookbook. p. 89
Jump up ^ Nikkhah, Roya (9 February 2013). "Hitler's food taster speaks of Führer's vegetarian diet". The Daily Telegraph. Retrieved 9 February 2013.

So what happens when scientists discover that plants experience electrical and chemical signals synonymous to the animal equivalents of pain and fear?

Is everyone just supposed to starve to death then? Subsist on mixtures of synthesized chemicals?

>>5656167
Like I said, the only truly ethical thing for the bleeding heart types to do is to kill themselves, since nothing happens by degrees in their world. Such is the plight of the zealot.

>>5656166
dude we all know that. We as the educated people. Don't feed the vegantrolls.. he'll never believe any source that doesn't align with his paradigm and belief system. just drop it..

my own source: Ich bin Deutscher, Grossvater hat im 2ten Weltkrieg in der SS gedient. Lickt meinen Schwanz ihr Veganer.

>>5656167
I always wondered that.. we already know plants and vegetables still have reactions to their environments after being plugged and stored in a grocery store. We know they are highly complex and while still in the earth can "talk" to each other through a sophisticated underground network. Same with fungi, they're a life kingdom of their own - I know most vegans eat them though! I don't get why Vegans don't see the hipocrisy in their view.. only because plants aren't as relateable and much more abstract than animals, doesn't mean they're less valued and not as meaningful as animals. Like seriously, this really gets on my nerves.. these people have no moral ground for anything.

All life is equal and precious, right? Well, then stop eating anything and starting living off of air and sunlight. And water I guess.

>>5656186
many vegans subscribe to a view that minimizing suffering is the goal. If you eat plants you minimize suffering because even if they suffer, by eating meat you indirectly eat many more plants (ie feed for the animal). Also the 'reactions' shown by plants to their environment are not comparable to what one would consider suffering since they lack a central nervous system, that is, they can't (and it doesn't make sense for them evolutionally*) interpret the signals as pain or something else unpleasant.
(When talking about suffering it's assumed that suffering is the interpretation of inputs, such that it doesn't matter whether your cells send signals of pain to your brain but only whether your brain can interpret them. That's why it's not cruel to 'hurt' someone under anesthetics.

*suffering in any form, pain, hunger etc. makes sense for moving creatures since they can change their surroundings. For plants though, it doesn't make sense to have any motivation in their doing because they can't do anything about their surroundings.

hope that clears some things up. while I know there are vegan shitheads, the philosophy/ethics that you can use to argue is actually quite sophisticated.

>>5656255
>being this retarded
Plants don't have feelings. Only animals do plants don't react to anything like animals. Don't eat animals eat plants. Tempeh is the food of gods.

>>5652634
I'm not a vegan, just here to see a shitstorm, but you can't argue that meat is awesome for us just because ancient human population got their calories from the densest calorie source available at the time. They succeeded if they got old enough to breed and had enough energy to kill, not live 80+ and try to keep perfect health while most likely having a desk job.

>>5656389
Actually, humans have been hitting 80 for thousands of years. Potentially tens of thousands of years

>>5656437
I heard that one Chinese guy hit 300!

>>5656440
Try to make a mockery of it all you want, but the truth is the truth.
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marcus_Valerius_Corvus

>>5652520
wise words, and I think you are correct. you should be eating mostly veggies, legumes and some fruits to begin with, most people aren't though. if you go from a diet of mostly processed food, meat, dairy, and grains over to strictly veggies and beans you are gonna feel awesome. it isn't that meat and cheese make you shitty feeling and unhealthy if you have them, its that most people just eat too much meat cheese and bread and not enough veg and fruit.

not a vegetarian, I dabbled for awhile though just to see how it is. it isn't horrible but if you're doing it for health reasons a small portion of meat each day would probably be beneficial.

>>5656489
And dairy. There is a reason dutch people grew a foot over the last 150 years

>>5656166
most of the concentration camps had animal slaughterhouses built right next to the human ones, and that Heinrich Himmler, the Gestapo
Commander who created the Jewish Holocaust's gas chamber system, was a mass murderer of chickens before orchestrating the mass murder of humans (yes,
he was a chicken farmer/killer), further exposes the 'Nazis-were-animal-loving-vegetarians' scam even more.

I have to point out how crazy it is to condemn vegetarianism because Hitler might have practiced it (which he didn't). If Hitler's diet was the cause of his psychosis, aren't meat, dairy and eggs to blame for the murderous ways of Joseph Stalin, Saddam Hussein, Uday Hussein, Qusay Hussein, Muammar Gaddafi and Osama bin Laden? Better yet, why not blame Hitler's facial hair as the cause of
his insanity? This would be especially valid since moustaches or beards also adorned the faces of Stalin, The Husseins, Gaddafi and bin Laden.

Also, vegetarians aren't vegans!

>>5656588
Vegetarianism is a half-assed attempt at ethical living, kindness, environmentalism and health, because vegetarians simply replace meat with huge amounts of dairy and eggs. So, first and foremost, the people in this group show the same disdain towards cows, hens and bees as meat-eaters show to all animals. Moreover, the dairy and egg industries are just as cruel if not crueler than the meat industry

Any diet other than veganism—including vegetarianism—is unhealthy. Paleo, Atkins, South Beach, The Zone, Weight Watchers, Jenny Craig, and the Blood-Type diets cannot produce optimum health because there is no such thing as healthy meat, cheese, milk and eggs, just as there is no such thing as healthy cigarettes, cigars and chewing tobacco. Fruits, vegetables, nuts, seeds, grains and legumes cause NO disease (with the exception of a wheat gluten allergy that causes Celiac Disease in some individuals who are gluten-intolerant). Diseases arise from the consumption of animal protein, casein, cholesterol, sugar, the excessive amount of fat found in all animal products and oils, artificial additives, the 2-9 percent of naturally-occurring trans-fatty
acids found in meat and dairy, human-made trans fatty acids found in junk food, and the excessive amount of refined carbohydrates found in white rice, white bread, and pasta. Non-dietary factors affect health, too. Stress, a lack of sleep, smoking tobacco, chemical pollution, genetics, and a lack of exercise can wreak havoc on the body. Therefore, it is essential to eat plant-based foods exclusively, and control the non-dietary factors to the best of your ability.

>>5656120
Ok

Fuck Peta

>>5656599
As long as PETA executes homeless cats and dogs, praises slaughterhouse designer Temple Grandin, and promotes the 'humane' enslavement and murder of
animals in the meat, dairy and egg industries, animals will never be free. Its murderous behavior, endless compromises, and myopic tactics are
detrimental to the animals, and the movement that seeks to liberate them from human bondage.

PETA's founder Ingrid Newkirk, a documented serial killer of homeless animals, literally goes out of her way to trap healthy cats in Norfolk, Virginia.
The feral cats are then brought to a shed located behind its headquarters, and killed. While I was living in Norfolk in 2002, a few of the sane PETA
employees told me that a representative from the nursing home next door had recently inquired why employees were taking caged cats into the shed but
coming out with empty cages. BUSTED! Instead of changing her evil ways, which also proves she is addicted to killing, Newkirk ordered her crew to cover
the cages with blankets so no one could see there were cats inside. As for murdering dogs, a few years ago PETA convinced a few animal shelters to call
them when their cages were full and lethal injections were imminent. After promising to find the animals a home, PETA picked up the dogs and then
executed them in the van as they drove back to Norfolk. A surveillance camera caught the employees dumping the dead bodies in a trash bin at a nearby grocery store."

>>5656821
if she could, she would kill ALL the animals in the world! She rationalizes
this psychosis by claiming that killing animals prevents them from suffering in the future. Well, I think everyone understands that corpses can't suffer
in the future. But why would anyone want to kill victims instead of victimizers? I don't mind using radical tactics to end a massacre (see my WHAT'S
WRONG WITH VIOLENCE and MORE PROBLEMS WITH PACIFISM essays), but I would never think of harming the victims! Moreover, why doesn't Newkirk care about
the cats suffering in a cage on their way to PETA's death shed? What about the dogs suffering in PETA's death van when they figured out they were
about to be killed? It's crazy to murder homeless animals—or all the animals in the world—by preemptively assuming that one day they might suffer,
or believing that they suffer without human companionship. If this movement rightfully condemns the meat, dairy, egg, vivisection, hunting and clothing
industries for killing animals, then this movement must condemn PETA for executing homeless cats and dogs, and its sick love affair with slaughterhouse
architect Grandin.

Truthfully, there's no difference between Newkirk and any other killer of animals. They all prey on innocent beings, and rationalize the homicidal acts
with diabolical excuses. Newkirk has turned PETA into an efficient animal-killing machine mirroring the companies she claims to despise. Furthermore,
under Newkirk's guidance, she has single-handedly turned the animal rights movement into a mockery with exploitative naked and semi-naked women
campaigns, and ineffective cartoon-costumed protests. When rational vegans condemn PETA's irrational approach, Newkirk dupes everyone with trite
lines about "animals suffering without PETA's existence" or "animals suffering from infighting in the movement". Those diversionary comments only
allow PETA to continue on its course of destruction.

>>5656827
For the record, PETA performs some good work once in a while. Then again, serial killer Ted Bundy volunteered for a suicide hotline before and during
his killing spree. He saved the lives of many people. Does that mean we're supposed to forget about the ones he murdered? The little good that PETA
does with its undercover investigations shouldn't convince anyone that PETA is a positive force for change. Doing some good while intentionally doing
bad is neither acceptable nor beneficial. You can make mistakes along the way, and rectify them as soon as possible. Any well-meaning individual might
bring circus placards to the vivisection protest, misspell someone's name in an op-ed piece, or realize they should be focusing on education-based
activism rather than lobbying crooked politicians. But killing homeless animals isn't a mistake. It's murder!

>>5656592
Nice opinion there brah, run out of scientific articles that don't say what you want them to?

>>5655770
>women are the same as animals
good feminism, bro

>>5656973
I didn't say that.

It can happen to men too.

The point of the comparison is clearly to help you think more of sentient beings, not to think less of them

>>5655630
i don't know what to believe. I think I'll take an algal DHA-EPA supplement just to be safe.

>>5657030
Plants feel pain and scream out to other plants as a warning when it's being slaughtered.

You can't hear their screams, so you think it's ok.

>>5657077
Ok, plants suffer and die to feed the vegans of the world. Yet, I am still searching for People for the Ethical Treatment of Carrots, Last Chance for Broccoli or Apples Deserve Absolute Protection Today and Tomorrow. People for the Ethical Treatment of Carrots doesn't exist because everyone knows the difference between taking a carrot out of the
ground and slicing a pig into pieces. Everyone also knows the difference between mowing a lawn and tossing a live baby male chick (egg industry) into a rendering machine. Understand the difference.

Vegans tread lightly and cause the absolute minimal amount of unintentional suffering to this planet and its inhabitants. Meat, dairy and egg-eaters
cause the MAXIMUM amount of intentional and unintentional suffering to this planet and its inhabitants because it is unreasonable to intentionally
starve millions of humans to death by feeding around 50 percent of the world's crops to 60 billion land animals, to murder 60 billion land animals
and 90 billion marine animals with premeditation, and then accidentally kill wild animals with tractors. With veganism, we could eliminate two
problems instead of living with three!

>>5657077

Pretending to sympathize with plants is always the carnist's last defense against facing his own immorality

meat, dairy and egg-eating societies destroy many more plants than the vegan ones do. In America, 70 to 80 percent of our
corn, wheat, oats and soy are fed to the 10 billion land animals killed annually. Globally, 35 to 65 percent of the world's plants are fed to 60
billion land animals killed annually. If humans stopped eating animals, fewer plants would be harvested; remember, a single vegan directly consumes
about one-tenth of the plant material that is either directly or indirectly consumed by a single meat, dairy and egg-eating human. Veganism is still
the ONLY solution to this problem, because fewer beings—sentient and insentient—would die if humans, who are physiologically herbivorous anyway, ate
plants directly. Even the Council for Science, Technology and Agriculture, a group of animal agriculture people, stated in the early '90s that all
the crops in America could feed every human on this planet twice-over! However, there had to be one stipulation; everyone would have to be vegan!

>>5656973
all humans are animals bro

>>5656000
Nigger, some of the vegans in this thread are dumber than the coat of paint on my wall. Murder isn't condoned jackass, is this the new thing vegans do? strawman full on with bullshit fedora worthy arguments? I know smart, intelligent vegans, 90% of the ones in here are not close to them. Murder isn't condoned, you have to be confirmed into the church and receive the sacrament, but of course your nigger ass wouldn't understand that.

>>5656588
Nice argument. Hitler modernized the country and brought it out of depression, whilst instilling healthcare systems still in use today. Stalin united the country, and introduced an industrial revolution, the USSR needed him. Gaddafi fought for the rights of the people and ensured water and food made it to all parts of Libya. He brought free healthcare and vaccinations against typhoid and cholera. Point being, your shit argument falls flat, wanna know why, because even if all those people did bad things, they did good too, so don't go around preaching what CNN told you, you look stupid, ignorant and like a city dwelling hippy.

>>5657096
If humans stopped eating animals, we'd all die of B12 deficiency, where do you think they derive your precious pills from? Babies NEED B12 to grow properly

>>5657883

>>5657883
we possess bacteria in the mouth and intestines that produce it naturally. B12 also comes from the earth's soil, which is why some animals possess trace
amounts of B12. In addition to producing it naturally, they eat soil because they eat off the ground. Also, animal feed in the meat, dairy and
egg-industries is never washed. However, attempting to get secondary trace amounts of B12 by eating animal products is inefficient and deadly.
First, B12 is destroyed by heat. So as soon as you cook something, the B12 is gone. Second, animal products contain disease-causing compounds.
The heat destruction explains why 99 percent of people with B12 deficiencies are meat, dairy and egg-eaters. The remaining one percent are junk-food
vegetarians and vegans, or people with an underlying medical condition that prevents B12 production and absorption. The veg junk food groups are also
at risk for other ailments because optimum health cannot be achieved with cheese, eggs, Ruffles, Oreos, french fries, white rice, white bread, or
refined pastas. Non-junk-food veganism causes no disease. It is preventative medicine, the treatment and the cure.

The best way to get B12 is to let your body produce it naturally, or eat unwashed organic fruits and vegetables with some soil intact. For TRUE,
UNBIASED, MEDICAL info on B12, check out http://libaware.economads.com/b12issue.php, www.naturalnews.com/029531_vitamin_B12_vegan.html and
http://drmcdougall.com/misc/2007nl/nov/b12.htm..

>>5657883
They derive them from a fermentation process. B12 is formed from bacteria (that's why animal products have it).

But for the record there are actually some vegans who get say they get their B12 from organic veggies with a little dirt left on them, then there's also nutritional yeast which is a popular source for vegans, and there are many fortified cereals and non-dairy milks. It's just best to take a supplement to be on the safe side. To my knowledge there are no health risks involved in taking a B12 supplement, only benefits, (it's recommended anyone over age 50 takes them, no matter their diet) but there are many health risks associated with eating an animal based diet.

If you want to waste your money on vegan vitamins or supplements,
and your doctor or parents insist upon it, then do it, and stop obsessing about it. But think about this: If eating meat, cheese, milk and eggs
is the norm, why do most people end up with a disease and a cabinet full of pills? Am I supposed to believe that the multi-billion dollar
hospital, medical, pharmaceutical and vitamin industries were created for the small percentage of the world's population that labels
itself vegan? I bet that everyone in your life under the age of 13 chews on Flintstones vitamins, while everyone over the age of 40
swallows One-A-Day tablets and probably takes some form of medication, too. If animal products contained all the essential nutrients, why is there
a drug store on every street corner selling vitamins and pharmaceuticals? Only an addict or a complete lunatic could possibly conclude that meat,
cheese, milk and eggs are healthy, proper and nutritious. The indisputable fact is that all essential nutrients come from the plant kingdom, and
the plant kingdom alone. Instead of feeding animals the plants that we should be eating directly, and filtering those nutrients through THEIR
bodies, eat what comes from the earth and leave the animals alone.

>>5657928
>>5657929
>>5657930
So you want to feed newborns dirt and unwashed fruit as well as pills to give them their B12? nice, while meat isn't ideally fed to them, the formula often contains meat, or at least the ones I fed to my nephew stated there were derivatives of meat in it.

>>5657934
Because the body naturally degrades, vegans have the exact same problem. You think those glorious vegetables that will extend your life by 100000x are all you need?

>>5657950
BREAST MILK FROM THEIR OWN MOTHERS!

>>5657957
Okay, how about after breast milk, what if the mother can't breast feed, you want to spread bacteria and germs from the dirt through the mother and into the baby? Your "everyone should become vegan" idea is failing

The state of one's health begins with breastfeeding. Milk varies markedly from species to species, and each type of milk is designed to provide optimal
nutrition to the young of the respective species. So just as a cow's milk is designed to provide a unique and optimal balance of fats, protein, sugar,
and minerals for her calf, your breast milk provides optimal nutrition for your HUMAN baby. Breastfeeding not only gives your baby a nutritional
advantage but also an immunological one as well, building their immune system to be able to function optimally and protect your child from infection.

Don't allow yourself to be frightened by aggrandized and poorly reported news stories claiming "death by veganism." Malnourishment will always lead
to death, whether vegan or not. Misinformed, naïve parents who feed a growing baby only soy milk or applesauce are idiots and NOT genuine vegans. What
the media and meat, dairy, and egg industries won't tell you is that infants and kids with abdominal pain, gas, bloating, diarrhea, vomiting, colic,
eczema, skin rashes, anemia, tooth decay, asthma, chronic fatigue, nasal congestion, bronchitis, ear infections, diabetes (I or II), and even ADD and
autism (see the DAIRY section of this webpage) are all linked to the consumption of dairy, either by the breast-feeding mother or the baby directly.

>>5657963

Not that guy, but B12 fortified foods or supplementation would be ideal. It sounds like you're trying to create an issue where there is one, in order to justify eating meat. Ice cream has B12 too, but I think you'd agree that it'd be ridiculous to say kids need to eat ice cream to get their B12. Likewise, I think it's dumb to say you should eat meat to get your B12. There's healthier alternatives

>>5657979
You literally copied this from a webpage, and didn't include a link, nice, not only that but you do realize that dirt and the germs within pass through the placenta and to the unborn. Enjoy your thread, I'm done

>>5657993
>>5653946
adaptt.org

>>5656588
[citation needed]

>>5658037
>>5658037
I'm not turning this paper in for a grade. I'm discussing facts tho. Google that shit, man. True shit

http://nutritionfacts.org/video/from-table-to-able/

Dr. Gregor just released his newest yearly lecture on plant-based diets. It's got some great information

>>5655731
>liberal tax strawman

He said *overbearing* taxes, like from overspending and budget mismanagement. Some states have lower taxes while still having good roads, good sewer/waste management, education etc...

>>5654860
Maybe you would be less bitchy if you occasionally ate a dick.

>>5652318
>fortified dairy substitutes

just kill me now

>>5658016
So, basically, her argument is that I should be putting human breast milk on my cereal instead of cows milk.
That's not gonna make my gf happy.
>"Good morning, sweety. Get them titties out."

>>5658429

Yeah, as an adult you don't drink formula.
Look here >>5657961

I just clicked "select all" on this thread and copied and pasted it into a Word document so I can read through it later.

So much information.

>>5652427
>>5652438

I don't understand why you'd be vegan then. Hell, I'm not even a vegan and I'm saying this. Unless its some sort of dietary thing or something similar, then being vegans pointless. It's like saying I don't agree with slavery, but I'm alright with other people having slaves. Or a pacifist who is totally alright with other people going to war, so long as he doesn't get blood on his hands.

>>5659950
Doesn't that contradict itself?

>>5660656
>dismiss all valid arguments
>when your opponent gives up trying to reason with you, claim victory

>>5660662
Tell me a valid argument against it if u can

>>5657971
Nutritional yeast does not inherently contain vitamin B-12. It only contains B-12 if it is added later.
If you are using it as a way to get your B-12, check your container to make sure your brand has it. Not all brands do.
Also, nutritional yeast tastes like monkey ass dipped in formaldehyde. I have absolutely no idea why vegans and vegetarians eat the stuff. It has a strong chemical taste that I find unbearable. The only reason I can think of for the inclusion of NY in "meat substitutes" is the fact that since vegans think that meat is horrible and evil, then anything that tastes like crap must be what meat tastes like. I guess the thought process goes something like "Jesus Christ, this is wretched. This must taste like meat, right?" "Sure, meat is disgusting, this is disgusting, so this must be what meat tastes like. You're a great cook to be able to make such a realistic meat substitute." "Thank you, yes, I really am a great cook. Thank you for noticing."

tl,dr; don't eat nutritional yeast. and stop trying to make meat substitutes.

>>5660855
>nutritional yeast tastes like monkey ass dipped in formaldehyde
really? I think it tastes pleasant like cheese.

btw Quorn is amazing.

>>5660877
I'm actually allergic to Quorn and have no idea why. I'm not allergic to any other fungus, and not allergic to mold as far as I know. But Quorn breaks me out in hives.

>>5660223
For real. Vegans who are "okay" with other people eating animal products are either lying their asses off or they're giving away that they're one of those hipster vegans. Best case scenario is they're just vegan for their health, but I wish they'd shut their mouths whatever the case.

Still appreciate that they're not eating animal products though. Just gets annoying if they try to speak on behalf of other vegans and they don't even get it.

>>5660877

not him but when you put it on stuff does it somehow taste way different? I go to a brazilian restaurant that has it on the table and have tried it alone because I didn't know what it was, the taste was not pleasant.

>>5660877
Nutritional yeast might be an acquired taste for some people. It's kinda nutty and does have a unique taste that I personally like but I always mix it with other flavors anyway. I can see how people could not like it though. Probably similar to sauerkraut. Some people love it, some people hate it.

I don't know what they're referring to by the chemically taste though. Probably tried some bad nutritional yeast.

>>5660909

"I love those posts that are like 'vegans need to calm down, and I say this as a proud vegetarian'. Do they not realise that vegans are not the same thing as vegetarians and that us calming down doesn’t stop animals dying?

It’s like 'historians need to calm down, and I say this as someone who watches Game Of Thrones'"

>>5660913
Just my experience, I liked it enough to eat it from the container and I'm not vegan.

>>5660930
>It’s like 'historians need to calm down, and I say this as someone who watches Game Of Thrones'"
Yeah, no, it's actually nothing like that at all.
History is about the factual representation of past events, while veganism is an opinion raised to the level of bouncing lunatic.
A more appropriate analogy would be "those psychotics need to calm down, and I say that as a proud hipster." And I say that as a proud hipster.

>>5660909
If you're trying to encourage others to be vegan, the only way to do it is to not come off as a fanatic.

But yes, if you truly believe that killing animals for food is murder, then it's an absolute. You don't happily tolerate other people murdering their children, you see them as criminals for doing that. It's not a personal choice to murder or not.

>>5652399
Go back to /pol

>>5660943
You didn't really have to say you were a hipster, it was pretty obvious lol.

Veganism is actually an action (or the absence of an action) based on reality and empathy. History is often manipulated and can be far from factual. Get your shit straight. You are fucking dumb.

>>5660945
I've found that I turned more people vegan through the blunt approach than I ever did when I tried to sugarcoat everything out of fear that they would start attacking me (which they usually did anyway).

Veganism was just about factory farming for me at first, but now it's about all animal agriculture because abuse is guaranteed throughout the industry. But not killing animals for trivial desires is just what I think should be basic decency. It's not on the very top of my priorities of things to end but I am against it and I don't think it will be tolerated in the future.

People will never understand veganism if vegans keep lying and saying they're fine with them eating animal products. That perpetuates the idea that it's not a big deal. It is.

>>5660976
Yet more proof that a vegan is just a white person with a persecution complex who has no other means to express it through.

>>5660976
Man, it's so insane because I love the food I eat as a vegan. I know other people would love it too but they just have never tried it. So many things are so easily made vegan and have either no significant difference or taste even better. It's so frustrating knowing that the solution is so simple, yet for no real reason people feel like they have to add animal products to everything. Can't wait to see the day meat is in the specialty food section. It's all so backwards.

>>5660976

The Earth revolving around the sun is a scientific discovery, it's not a political/philosophical view like the other three squares. Rather than the animal rights aspect, that image should've had 2 other "you're CRAZY, we don't believe THAT at this point in time" examples like the theory of evolution and the achievement of human flight, and then "Animal products are unhealthy."

>>5660985
Do you think there will never be social movement in that direction?

>>5660985
But the vegan in that comic isn't white.
Just sayin'.

>>5660994
That sentence is the grammatical equivalent of Jackson Pollock inspecting himself for anal polyps. Whilst skydiving.

What is "social movement," anyway? Taking a dump in public?

>>5660998

It's grammatically correct, you just have to read it in a way you wouldn't think to read it. You're probably thinking he needed to say "a social movement," but just saying "social movement" is correct in that he's describing a movement of the social variety (involving society)

>>5660998
So is yours...

I'm asking if you think conventional animal husbandry will eventually be considered as unacceptable as human slavery currently is. It may happen. Probably will if we get lab grown meat off the ground.

>>5661000
No. If more people start to think that way, it'll just make more people that much more adamantly opposed. Besides, your correlation is idiotic. Slavery in no way equates to animal husbandry. Of course, if you can't understand that, you're just fucked anyway, and I have no idea why I'm wasting my time typing. Wish subject titles of threads had tag choices that could be set to auto hide.

>>5661017

Instead of getting defensive and mad at the guy and spewing a bunch of denial about what will almost definitely happen in the future, why not think about things a bit and give the guy a proper, rational response?

>>5661017
>Slavery in no way equates to animal husbandry.
Why not? The whole point here is that some people think animals should have the same rights as humans (human animals). If we assume that part, then animal husbandry has much in common with human slavery.

>>5661017
>Wish subject titles of threads had tag choices that could be set to auto hide
filters

>>5661035
>allowing cookies
I'm talking about something that doesn't require cookies or resetting every time you close the page
>>5661024
>almost definitely
See, that's the part where you're fucked in the head and no decent discussion can take place, anyway.
>>5661017
And the point I made was that that is blatantly idiotic. Species are species. At what point do you draw the line? It would have to include all animals if you go by vegan logic. >muh insect rights
All farming must halt because insect abuse!

>>5661066
>It would have to include all animals if you go by vegan logic.
You're assuming all vegans draw the line at the same place. Animals presumably have different levels of mental complexity, and the more complex, the more capacity for suffering. The capacity to suffer is key here, and that requires a brain and nervous system.

Making a decision on which animals are okay to kill would be somewhat arbitrary. But I think insects would be in the "okay to kill" category. Right now we have pigs in that category, even though we protect dogs and cats from the same treatment.

>>5661089
>we have pigs in that category, even though we protect dogs and cats from the same treatment.
Who is we? Cultural variants exist, and large worldly populations have very different laws from each other. I mention laws because that is the only form of protection I can assume you are meaning. Most of those laws stem from convenience and economy. Working animals are forgone farming for use as food in general because they were deemed better used otherwise, and systems for food production were never implemented. It's not a measure of moral judgement outside of it being morally wrong to subject people to food sources we can not make reasonably safe in an economically viable manner. You were not just mentioning right to kill for food, but animal rights, which is a much more extreme philosophy than even animal welfare, which is also a relatively obscure notion, and where what you are now talking about might come into play. Which brings us back to the original point I made. In voting politics, minorities may be able to tip it one direction or another, but as soon as it really affects the lives of the majority, people will start to give a shit, and not in the way animal rights people will like.

>>5661215
>but as soon as it really affects the lives of the majority, people will start to give a shit, and not in the way animal rights people will like
Do you mean, outrage? It's not like there is never resistance to new laws.

>>5660990
Yeah um no. I don't mind vegans, I respect them for making their own decisions but why the fuck must you insist your way is superior and act like you've been persecuted or done wrong. Your not a slave, your not being treated unfair, you made your own damn descision, you have the ability to eat your own damn food, now stop insisting that your way will one day rule supreme, newsflash, it isn't happening and never will.

>>5660954
Empathy is only native to humans, it is not a reality. It is simply a bi-product of human emotion

>>5661265
>respect them for making their own decisions

Uhh, thanks?

>insist your way is superior

Because it is.

>act like you've been persecuted

It's not about us, it's about the animals, the environment, future generations, public health...

>it isn't happening and never will

It is though. And it's going to have to if we're going to survive on this planet much longer.

>>5661276
That's not true. Even rats have demonstrated empathy.

It's completely irrelevant though. You wouldn't try to trivialize your child being tortured and rape because "empathy is not a reality". Fuck off.

>>5661265
If you have a moral principle, you're going to want it to apply to others. That is what makes it a principle.

Vegans have a different concept than you about how to treat animals morally. How we should ALL treat them.

>>5661339
>my way is superior despite not existing for even 100 years, never being tested long term
Excellent logic there
>the animals
Can be saved, you can breed more and they won't be extinct anytime soon
>the environment
Irrelevant, all those precious substitutes for proper ingredients take up space too ya know and substitiuting that would cost quite a bit, haven't you noticed the euro failing, rubles becoming useless, dollar is only relevant in one part of the world, and you want to replace all crops and farms with your shit, which requires more effort to grow and isn't available in many areas due to climate, and soil conditions? Nice
>future generations
Yeah when half the world has to import all it's vegan food cause, muh animals and the soil is farmed out of use
>public health
Exercise, it's been proven and you get to eat what you want. Public health problem solved. Do you really thing a diet change will affect peoples laziness?
>It is though. And it's going to have to if we're going to survive on this planet much longer.
A few sparse groups of people deciding to change their diet but still sit on their other luxuries like computers, cars, television isn't a major breakthrough. It doesn't need to happen because the planet will be fine, you can make a list of all the problems on the planet, and tell your government they need to fix that now! But they won't, wanna know why? Because worldly problems are solved as they come along, it's kind of hard to be too late for a god damn planet. Also, what about the starving africans, you're going to tell them they need to eat this delicious vegan food because they can only have what I think they should have? And don't pull those shit statistics about how you can feed so many people with all that extra grain, because it'd cost way too much to feed africa, the soil isn't proper for most grains, and you'd need to sustain the damn thing. Diseases among plants are killer

>>5661392
How about suggestion, rather than forcing, how about not telling people they are murderers and that they should now join your side. Or how about you mind your damn business and I'll be on my way. I only came to this thread to see why it was on the front page and then all I witness are vegans telling me I'm evil and their way of life is better than mine

>>5661426
I'm not a vegan. I'm just saying that being an ethical vegan necessitates viewing non-vegans as unethical. That's just having integrity.

>>5661418
Read the thread. All of your question s have an answer. Remember animals have to eat so much more food and use so much more water than humans

>>5656921
>>5661418

>>5661426
All of the thread is just suggestions. All of the thread is anonymous. Nobody said "(your name here) is evil!" If you read about veganism you'll know how much good you can do by being vegan though

i see the VIDF arrived with a pyrrhic shitpost bombardment