/ck/ - Food & Cooking

>>5504551
>butthurt smoker detected

>>5504551
It should also be an owners right not to allow men/blacks/jews/gays either

you should stop voting for kikes

If smoking only affected the smoker, sure.

>>5504561
I agree with this in principle as well.

>>5504551
i understand not smoking inside bars. i'm a smoker, and imo smoking inside anywhere is disgusting.

however in my city they are trying to get rid of smoking on patios. come on now.

>>5504551
>2014
>still smoking
Try vaping bro. It's magical

>>5504562
It only affects those who choose to be in the same room.

>inb4 it's not a choice because poor single mom bartender etc

>>5504569
it's all part of the plan to eliminate all freedom

it just so happens that smokers are a maligned group so it's easy to do

>>5504573
Yup. Smoke only stays inside where people are smoking and never leaks outside.

>>5504588
just like the photons that bounce off your ugly nose right?

>>5504588
jesus christ

When I went into one restaurant once, they seated me at a table in the no-smoking section, but that table was only inches away from the smoking section. There was only a half-wall about 3 feet tall dividing the two sections.

Ever after, whenever I went in there, the waiter would inevitably try to seat me at the same table. I'd walk over to the table I wanted -- the furtherest table from the smoking section -- and sit down. That table was large table that could comfortably accommodate at least 6 people that they usually kept available for groups of 5 or 6 people. I would usually have that entire table to myself.

They weren't happy about it, imagine the difference in tips, but their choice was to either let me sit where I wouldn't be bothered with smoke or ban me from coming in. I wasn't going to move.

>>5504551
This asshat is why we must have stupid public health laws. People will do any kind of horrible public health hazard because "muh rites".

Agreed 100% OP. But I would add one more:

5) The business world has no business making government decisions either.

4 and 5 go hand it hand. They're two separate things entirely. The Gov't needs to be hands-off of business, and likewise must keep the hands of business away from government decisions.

>>5504551

Should he also be required to help shoulder the costs of medical treatment for non-smoking employees (and former employees) who subsequently develop smoking related illnesses?

>>5504632
>smoking related illnesses?
unprovable

>>5504588
Because I'm sure breathing in car fumes and industrial pollution is SO good for your health. People thinking cigarettes hurt air quality when they live in a fucking city covered in smog is the height of irony. Maybe we should focus on fixing the fucking atmosphere before we go after a group of people that just want to make their shitty days a little more bearable.

>>5504551
>It shouldn't be the government's duty to regulate how people do business
That is, in fact, a big part of the government's duty. There are regulations in place to keep unscrupulous businessmen from putting employees and customers in hazardous situations.

You may argue that a smoky bar does not really qualify as a hazardous environment. You'd be on the wrong side of history, I'm afraid.

But if second hand smoke in the workplace is a legitimate health hazard then that's EXACTLY the kind of thing the government is supposed act on.

>>5504650
I would buy that if the government actually put up a pretense of looking out for people. They let huge corporations completely destroy our fucking planet, exploit workers, and stifle competition. But a small business owner wants to allow people to smoke in a BAR of all places? God forbid that happens! We gotta look out for da pppl!. It's all horseshit. These people don't care about you; they care about money and they care about power. Putting substances into our bodies is one of the few things we have actual control over anymore, and they're trying to take that away from us. Fucking fascists.

>>5504650
>You'd be on the wrong side of history
makes you sound like a fascist, pretentious kike
history is not reality.

>>5504551
agreed but nanny state mentality is overrunning the country.
>complaining about cigarettes when you use a cell phone, are surrounded by power lines, and breathe car exhaust constantly

Do people really think the world would be even tolerable with completely unfettered business? Consumers are too stupid, we'd all be slaves to consumption in no time. Oh, wait...

>>5504671
Ugh. Why is there nobody on the planet I agree with politically? I'm all for an egalitarian society free from prejudice, hatred, greed, and exploitation, but I also want to be able to make jokes and put whatever I want into my body. People should do what's best for their communities, but should also have complete agency over their bodies. Abortion, prostitution, whatever. If it doesn't hurt another person, then it should be allowed. Instead, things that hurt no other people are banned, while things that actively contribute to the downfall of our society are openly encouraged.

>>5504551
The government should help promote a safe work environment, especially for desparate people on minimum wage, or less. This is because they are charged in the constitution with "promoting the general welfare" of the country, and its people.

Op, you are wrong, and have been served.

I wonder if we're ever going to be controlled by a single supercorporation that owns most businesses and employs the bulk of the population...

>>5504672
>when you use a cell phone, are surrounded by power lines
>this is harmful
citation needed there m8

>>5504551

more like no one should smoke and those who do should be burned alive for forcing others to breathe in their secondhand stupid (when not in the privacy of their own home).

>>5504709
So a single person can't smoke if they want to, but they're welcome to drive a car if they want to?

>>5504551
Yeah, that sounds fair.

>>5504721
The cognitive dissonance is strong in them. There is no stopping them.

Remember the days before the indoor smoking ban (at least yrop contries)? Every place (pub, restaurant, bar, eastery, fast food place, fancy restaurant, club, bowling alley, cafés, trains, canteens, workplaces, educational institutions) and I do mean everywhere - was completely smoked up. It was intolerable.

Regulation more or less fixed that even though the majority of people and business owners were against it back then. Today people are favorable towards further restrictions.

>>5504751
I would have no problem with these regulations that go after the little guy if we had incredibly tough regulations for big businesses. We don't, though. These people literally get away with murder.

Govenment doesn't want people congregating. Actually making bars illegal didn't work so they are trying to make them unattractive instead.

>>5504661
>I would buy that if the government actually put up a pretense of looking out for people. They let huge corporations completely destroy our fucking planet, exploit workers, and stifle competition.
Unfortunately this is true. If you have enough money you can have special sets of laws passed for you that lean things in your favor. Tobacco companies are a great example of this. They're still allowed to profit from selling a product that we've known was deadly for over half a century. How is this allowed?

They have lots of fucking money.

>>5504784
This. Revolutions are plotted in the backs of dark, smoky bars.

>>5504562
>implying people are forced to enter the restaurant

>>5505046
>implying people aren't stuck there during the time between when the meal is delivered and the check is delivered.

Used to be nothing worse than sitting and having a great meal for it to only be ruined in the last five minutes by some cancer-addled blue collar pleb.

I'm super happy that people with no self respect have to go outside and show how addicted and out of control of their lives they are. For every one rich person that had their shit together and smoked, i bet ive met a thousand that were utter white trash.

>>5504551
I couldn't believe people were smoking in the restaurants when I went back home, it seems weird and gross to me now, I'm a smoker too. You go to a restaurant to eat and you can go 45 minutes without a cigarette.

Not smoking in bars is horse shit. Nobody goes to a bar to be healthy.

>2014
>still fighting this battle

My city once tried to pass a law that forbid smoking even in private, one person households.

A surprising number of people were in favor of it too. People are so stupid these days.

>>5504551
Well yeah.

Apparently we stopped smoking in the back of the restaurant (not the kitchen proper) before I started working at the restaurant I work at now.

That being said, the restaurant I work for is family run, the husband married in, the wife is blood related to the family that owns the various restaurants.

The wife smokes cigarettes, and does so regularly in the 'office' in the back that is directly opposite of the men's bathroom. The husband smokes cigars outside if there are people still in the restaurant, but as soon as the last customer is out, he and his cigar-smoking friends move inside.

I smoke cigarettes, and both of them prefer me to smoke in the 'office' instead of going outside, so I can watch the security camera feed and run back to my post if need be.

We smoke inside the restaurant within the hour before we open and for hours after we close.

I've left a half dozen sporting clays in the restaurant to use as ashtrays.

I usually smoke while I clean up at the end of the night.

We'll smoke in the restaurant while we're open if it's slow enough.

Pic related, took that photo at work, the owner and I go shooting from time to time as well.

>>5505156
HAVEN'T YOU SEE THOSE COMMERCIALS? THE SMOKE GOES INSIDE THE VENTS AND KILLS ALL THE BABIES IN THE APARTMENT BUILDING!

>>5505195
>>5505156
BABY MURDERER.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YyJYSXtaqsg

>>5505185
Hue hue hue, i have a guna nd smoke and my wife smokes and my boss smokes and guns and guns and cigarettes and we runt he restaurant and we do what we want bcause muh freedoms and guns and women and cigarettes.

Could you be more of a fucking cliched nasty ass blue collar hillbilly?

>>5505255
Yes, yes I could.

What's the point?

>>5504610
congrats on being a shithead

>>5504551
>It shouldn't be the government's duty to regulate how people do business

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gutter_oil
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lJOLCvPm5Dg

>>5505281

Silly billy, once enough people die from stuff like that The Free Market™® will sort it all out. I don't need no gubmint!

>>5505267
>and then i told that teacher lady, "the only letters i need to know are u, s, and a!"

Proudly ignorant waste of a human being detected.

or you could just not have a stupid fucking addiction that not only harms your health, but those around you

stop being a selfish cunt

>>5505307
I'm sorry that I'm genuinely proud of my state, and on a larger part my country.

Oh wait, no I'm not.

>>5505468
or you can stop with the implying and just debate the actual question. are you a statist piece of shit or are you a proud proponent of liberty? your move, shit for brains.

>>5505302
lol this

>>5505497
Are you proud of the National Defense Authorization Act, the #1 prison population, a higher infant mortality rate than Cuba, spending the most on healthcare yet not living the longest, having one of the most top-heavy bureaucratic governments in the world, and being part of a corporate-bought country that treats its citizens like consumers and not members of a democracy?

>>5505504
In a sense yes.

I love that the USA has managed to remain the most relevant super power in the world.

The US has its fair share of short-fallings, but as a whole, we're far better off than any pseudo-socialist (not intending to use socialism purely as an insult) country you'd like to compare us to.

This is coming from someone who, being born to American parents, has lived in:

>Saudi Arabia
>Mexico
>Germany

I pretty much don't care what you have to say, but it's your right to voice your opinion. So carry on.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZHAFmFsb9XM

>>5505531
>The US has its fair share of short-fallings, but as a whole, we're far better off than any pseudo-socialist (not intending to use socialism purely as an insult) country you'd like to compare us to.
But America is socialist. More people on a form of welfare than many other countries, incredible rate of subsidies and other corporate welfare, bloated federal and state governments, etc.

You are happy "America is a superpower" but you probably rail against the federal government and pretend your .22 is going to protect you from the potentially oppressive military that you inexplicitly worship.

lol Americans

>>5504551
if this is really how you think a business should be run, then you have no idea.

>>5505541
But we're not:

>Britain
>any part of Continental Europe
>China
>Japan
>Russia
>Any part of Central or South America

America is relatively great - that's the whole point I'm getting at.

>>5505541
>You are happy "America is a superpower" but you probably rail against the federal government and pretend your .22 is going to protect you from the potentially oppressive military that you inexplicitly worship.

Firstly: I hate our government and despise the game it has become. Secondly, I don't own a single .22LR firearm, but the Vietcong did a fair job at subduing American units in Vietnam, being armed with hardly more than most American citizens are capable of owning without much hassle - as with the Taliban and Al Qaeda in Afghanistan/Iraq.

I'm going to stop posting because i don't want to shitpost in a thread that Zed hasn't already ruined.

>>5505499
I don't even live in america, get fucked cunt

I left that shithole last year and I will never look back

>>5504551
>4. It shouldn't be the government's duty to regulate how people do business
Wrong. That is literally the ONLY function of government in libertarian paradise: enforcing contracts.

>>5505567
>potentially oppressive military that you inexplicitly worship.
It's the police and federal police like entities you have to worry about. If the people of the US went to war against DC the bulk of the military would more then likely be aligned against the fed.

>>5504784
This is actually one of the most poignant and profound statements I have ever read on 4chan.

>>5505267
I want to high five you, because that's magic.

>>5504702
says to keep the things away from your head right on the device warranty, chap

Why are Americans so against healthy lifestyles? Why do Americans clap at the movie theatre? Why are Americans forced to tip? What is it with American obsession with HFCS and MSG and GMO? Why do Americans say "alminum" when the rest of the world says "aluminium"? Why is it called the world series of baseball when only a few American states participate in it? Why does the American society burden its students with literally hundreds of thousands of dollars of debts? Why do Americans call people that they have only briefly talked to in high school 30 years ago? Why do Americans ask "How are you" and not even care about what the other person says? Why? Why? Why?

>>5504551
Agreed for bars. Not for restruants. Who the fuck wants to smoke while they eat anyway. Disgusting.

asspained nicotine addicts getting BLOWN THE FUCK

stick your cancer rolls in your asses

>>5506120
eat shit it's up to the owner. some businesses can afford separate smoking sections. keep in mind that bullshit law applies to cigar lounges as well, which are almost always completely enclosed, ventilated, and may be completely separate from the dining room of the establishment.

>>5504641
>>defending smoking
>>clearly the dumbest of shits
do you have any idea how much environmental fixing could be done if everyone who payed money to kill their body's and blow poison into the air instead donated all that money to causes that matter instead of bitching over not being allowed to poison other people?

>>5506134
>payed
>body's
you're poisoning me way more than I poison others with my sweet sweet nicotine.

It doesn't even matter if the second hand smoke if harmful / not harmful and if the government should regulate it or not. It's just annoying.

For all you smokers, if you were in a restaurant and some asshole was right next to you beating a loud ass drumset and screaming, would you allow it? It's not harming you physically and government doesn't have to control obnoxious drumming, so technically you should be completely fine with it and should praise the restaurant / bar owner for allowing what he / she wants.

Smoking is just plain annoying. Not everybody likes smoking. So you can't subject other people to it. In fact, everybody who doesn't smoke looks at smokers as disgusting faggots with no self control. Who really thinks it's a good idea to inhale smoke on a daily basis anyways? Are you that dumb? Plus you smell like ass.

tl;dr go smoke where it won't bother people and let people enjoy their time out

>>5506809
If I were in a restaurant and the next patron over brought in his drum set and no one in management found offense to it, I'd just get up and leave. Would I petition the government to ban drum sets and loud music in general inside restaurants? Fuck no. That's the real question here.

>>5506809
>your rights end where my feelings begin

>>5504671
>history is not reality.
It doesn't matter. What I meant by smokers being on the wrong side of history is that the habit is not just falling out of fashion, but people are becoming less tolerant of it. It has nothing to do with "rights", but social acceptance. Smoking is becoming less and less acceptable.

>>5506809
>Smoking is just plain annoying. Not everybody likes smoking. So you can't subject other people to it.
This is the 21st Century view.

No matter how much people cry about their rights and whatnot we will not be returning to a time when smoking is socially acceptable.

smoking ban was the death knell for pub culture in Britain.

>>5506809
I think smoking is disgusting. But I don't see the point in restricting other people's wishes because I don't like it. If I don't like smoke (which I don't), I won't go somewhere where smoking takes place.

The only ban I support on smoking is in public places where you cannot avoid it--in an aircraft, in a courthouse, hospital, city hall, or public school--that sort of thing. Anywhere else I have no problem with smokers. I'll just stay away if there's too much smoking.

>>5506838
Your rights end when you cross into America m8

>>5504624
>implying you don't have the right to get together with other like minded people and engage in a legal activity.

People legally enjoying themselves? The horror!!

>>5504551
I think an increase of no kids/babies restaurants would be better.

>>5507229
Don't most restaurants not allow kids in after 7pm? They all don't around here anyway, at least all the ones worth going to, the american style diners and shit like BK obviously do.

>America
>land of the free
>no kids
>no smoking
>mandatory tipping
>mandatory student loans

>>5507229
>I think an increase of no kids/babies restaurants would be better.

This. That's part of the reason I support smoking in bars. There really has to be some place that is considered an exclusively adult venue. This is a big part of the reason i still go to one of the few smoking bars left in Pennsylvania.

A few years back, soon after the ban kicked in, I was in a bar in Pittsburgh. There were people, several, in fact, that literally had baby carriers up on the bar while they drank. Do people have no concept any longer that there are some places where kids/babies are literally off limits?

>That's part of the reason I support smoking in bars. There really has to be some place that is considered an exclusively adult venue.

They don't allow anybody underaged into bars you fucking moron, kids can't get in there anyway. And even if they did, what exactly about smoke is going to turn them away? Kids love to smoke almost as much as they love to do everything else they're not allowed to do.

>>5507247
The kind of people who put a baby on the counter of a bar would have no trouble putting a baby on the counter of a bar filled with smoke either.

>>5507255
>The kind of people who put a baby on the counter of a bar would have no trouble putting a baby on the counter of a bar filled with smoke either

You are probably correct, but I should add that in PA any bar that allows smoking, and that only accounts for something like 1% of the total anyone under 21 is banned from entering.

>>5507229

Any restaurant worth going to will already be kid-free. You'll find kids at shitty chains like Chilis or Red Lobster. Nobody takes young children to nice restaurants.

>>5507252
>They don't allow anybody underaged into bars you fucking moron

I'm actually curious how this works. I remember being in pubs in England with my father when I was around 10-12 or so--well before any smoking bans.

Also liquor stores restrict entry to under-21, but minors can enter with their parents.

>>5507265
Except, you know, parents who actually managed to raise their kids to behave like functioning members of society.

Which you wouldn't find in the US.

>>5507252
see>>5507261

The rules in PA about what bars can allow smoking are pretty stringent. 99% do not qualify. Less than 20% of total revenues can come from food, so these are literally serious drinking bars, not restaurants that serve liquor. An extra license must be purchased, which costs upwards of $200k. They are subject to random monthly inspection. Not only the owner, but the bartender and wait staff are also civilly and criminally liable for infractions.

They way I see it non-smokers and families have 99% of every public place in the state. They can fuck off over the last 1% refuge we have.

>>5507267
>I'm actually curious how this works
Easily. You are obviously going to be noticed if you sit at the bar and if you're at a table the wait staff are going to ask you to leave. Most bars have electronic ID verifiers, so anyone even mildly questionable is going to be scanned and even they they can refuse service if there is some doubt. I know in PA the rule is if you appear to under age 40, they are supposed to card you.

>>5507252
>They don't allow anybody underaged into bars
Have you never seen a restaurant/bar? Any place with a sizable menu is going to have shitload of kids running around, even if the menu is basically bar food like wings, nachos, and burgers. Sell enough of it and the fucking families start pouring in.

>>5507276
Most bars here in the UK card you when you're going in after say 8pm or so. Any parents in there with kids are asked to leave and some serious drinking starts.

And then there are bars where they'll just tell you to get out if your underage no matter what time it is, but those are mostly just dives where the only drinkers are scum and serious alcoholics. So traditional English bars.

>>5507276
Oh, and i might add our state's Liquor Control Board is notorious for sending underage "kids" into bars to see if they get served and/or are allowed to stay. Get caught and you get shut down.

>>5507284
>Going to a restaurant to drink

Sorry, I didn't realise this thread was for fedora'd metrosexual twinks. You go to a restaurant to eat, you go to a bar if you want to get some drinking done or hit on guys.

>>5507276

No, I mean, under what circumstances are minors allowed in bars vs. not allowed according to the law. Obviously it's not so simple as "no minors allowed inside" since I was allowed into bars when I was a child (with my parents). I didn't mean to ask how an underage person might or might not get carded.

>>5507293
Don't be fucking willfully dense. You know perfectly well that the line between restaurant and bar is not so cut and dry. There are plenty of "bars", complete with regular heavy drinking clientele that also happen to be "restaurants". Sometimes the bar is in a separate room, sometimes not. If you have never seen such a thing you have obviously never been in a rural part of the country. Plenty of "Joe's Bar and Grill Featuring Homestyle Cooking. Tonight's special Hot Roast Beef Open Face Gravy Sandwich, Open Sunday's for brunch" places out here.

>you have obviously never been in a rural part of the country. Plenty of "Joe's Bar and Grill Featuring Homestyle Cooking. Tonight's special Hot Roast Beef Open Face Gravy Sandwich, Open Sunday's for brunch" places out here.

Yeah, and they'll all tacky shitjoints for families and tourists. There are also bars out in shitfuck nowhere which don't serve brunch and serve lukewarm, stale beer for dirt cheap.

Move into the 20th century dipshit.

>>5507290

I used to know someone who a nearby police department would send into stores to buy beer. If they sold him the beer, they got busted.

Once he turned 21, naturally that ended.

>>5507290

I used to know a college football player who said that when he was in high school, they would go into the gay bars to buy a case of beer. They didn't stay to drink or anything, just to buy the beer. He was clear about that.

According to him, that was the most dependable place for an underage beer drinker to buy beer.

>>5507331
>20th century

Are you the world's shittiest time traveler?

>>5507345
Wow, I guess rural education actually DOES suck

>1. It should be the owner's right to allow smoking or not in HIS restaurant/bar/pub since HE'S the one who's paying for what happens inside HIS four walls

Okay, sure. And if a restaurant owner makes that decision of his own free will, the smoking community would respect it and not scream and while that they were being persecuted.

The joke is that this is untrue.

>>5504571
>Vaping

Sure, everyone wants to smell the inside of your lungs.

Fuck off with that trash too junkie.

>>5507206
I forgot about the Bel-Air Theme Song incident. I'm from Pittsburgh, which isn't far from Ambridge. Ambridge/Aliquippa is a predominantly black area and the cops in that vicinity are very jumpy at just about everything.

>>5507406
>it's a black area

You mean like the rest of the United States?

>>5507247
Depends on the establishment. There are some bars where you can have kids or 18-20 year olds provided they're accompanied by someone 25 years of age or older.

>>5507252
Depends on the area. I'm in Pittsburgh and there's one bar that 18, 19, and 20 year olds can be in; but they can't drink and they must be with someone 25+ years old. It's technically a restaurant, but their food revenues are so low that they're exempt from the smoking bans.

>>5507395
>Sure, everyone wants to smell the inside of your lungs.
Do you not breathe? The only difference is a bit extra water vapor.

>>5507421
Good point, but at least I'm not forcibly blowing it out around me.

>>5507331
>bars out in shitfuck nowhere which don't serve brunch and serve lukewarm, stale beer for dirt cheap.

That is not mutually exclusive with the fact that oftentimes they are also the only place for 20-30 miles to get something to eat.

Also I'd seriously recommend you seek out treatment for your anger management issues and narcissistic personality disorder.

>>5507406
>which isn't far from Ambridge.
Beaver County! Mah Nigga! New Sewickley Twp. reporting in.

>>5505567

I had to check the tab to see which board I was on.

>>5507431
You never, ever sigh in a public place?

>>5507431
Bluntly put, too bad. You have a lot of rights, but trying to stop something that has no impact on others aside from your personal dislike or annoyance is not one of them.

>>5507478
>>5507493

Whatever... Just as well fart everywhere too then, it's the same thing.

I hope there's nothing that someone else does in front of you that you don't like, because the you deserve it. "too bad" if you don't agree.

>>5507577
Dude I fart everywhere, I don't give a fuck. I have a high protein diet from all the cum you see, plays hell with my digestive tract, you should smell them though, heavenly.

Also who gives a fuck, farts are hilarious and they aren't deadly or anything, who gives a fuck if people fart in front of you, in most cultures it's perfectly acceptable and even considered polite like burping. It's only the puritanical US that seems to have a problem with it.

>>5507240
Please tell me where you live then. 9/10 times my wife and I go out, there's a fucking shrieking ass baby or feral kid running around. This happens even at 10pm or later.

>>5507252
Tell that to all the bar owners aeound here who allow children/babies because "OMG BABIES!!" or "PARENTS ARE PEOPLE TOO. THEY NEED FUN". Then we get scolded by the classless cunts when we dare utter a "fuck" around their little shitlings. In a BAR.

ya? know what? here in my town We can't even smoke in our own car if someone else in the car says no.

>>5504551
I find smoking disgusting, but I agree completely.

i lease out houses. i rarely accept smokers as tenants. when they smoke inside, the discoloration seen on the filter after the last drag is slowly being painted on the wall. smoking inside makes the whole place smell like a cheap motel. from time to time i catch a flight on an older model plane with ashtrays built into the arm rests. i can't imagine how terrible that shit must have smelled.

i've also been a smoker myself for 7 years. if a bar or restaurant doesn't have an ashtray outside i don't spend my money there. are there any other smokers who don't enjoy the smell?

>>5504551

Are you even old enough to remember how shitty it was to hang out in a bar when smoking was still allowed? It fucking sucked, and I smoke

>>5507722
How is smoking "disgusting "

>>5504567

There's this board here called /pol/ where people like you go to shit all over the place. stay there

>>5507738
His post seemed reasonable, didn't devolve into ad hom, just stated a logical extension of the rights of a business owner under the conditions of the government not dictating clientele.

I don't really know about restaurants because while I like smoking while waiting for my food and with the cup of coffee after a meal I also don't like people smoking near me and annoying people around me with my smoke.

Bowling alleys on the other hand annoy me when they don't allow smoking.

>No cheap draft beer and cigarettes while bowling
>Land of the free my big black cock

>>5507737
The smell and evident health repercussions. I've smoked before and it IS enjoyable, but when you're not a smoker and you smell smoke, it's nauseating (to me).

People should totally have the right to do it if they want and if I'm at a bar, it's to be expected. If I went to a restaurant where it was allowed, I wouldn't eat there, but that's my decision as a consumer, just as it is theirs.

>>5507755
That's why I am in favor or business' deciding. Undoubtedly you would get establishments that cater to each group; smoking, non smoking, and don't care. Everybody is happy, everybody wins.

>>5507736
Not OP, but I am old enough to remember when you could smoke just about everywhere. I smoked for 28 years before I quit earlier this year. I have to say I didn't mind it before I smoked, and I don't mind it now that I've quit. (Some bars in my state still can have smoking).

Frankly the two places I expect smoking are bars and coffee shops. Even though I have quit I still think liquor and tobacco and coffee and tobacco are simply natural partners. Particularly bars. Nobody goes to a bar expecting to be healthy. A beer and a smoke, or especially a scotch and cigar should not be separated.

>>5504551
OP

is that the Meanwhile bar in GR?

>>5504751

I agree with this and I'm a smoker. In fact at this point, thinking back to the days when we used to smoke indoors, it seems like a bizarre dream. I don't even smoke in my own house now.

Still miss smoking sitting down though.

>>5504624
And this asshat is why totalitarian police states happen. "Rights? Pfffff, who needs those? Please government protect us from ourselves!"

>>5504641
>>5504661
>>5504680
>>5504721
>>5504735
>>5504764
These posts were all ignored because they make too much sense, and can't be argued with. It's clear who's in the right here.

>>5507744
racism should be banned and punishable with death get fucked *waves dick around*

>>5508830
Oh, come on. Nobody should be banned from somewhere over something they have no choice in. It's not that difficult of a concept.

>>5508830
also large scale private automobile production should cease immediately and we should bike/public transport everywhere

>>5508837
no exactly i wasn't being sarcastic, business owners should not be able to discriminate their patronage in such a manner

>>5508820
libertarians are idiots who don't understand that capitalism is inherently oppressive and nurtures manipulation

>Tobacco companies are a great example of this. They're still allowed to profit from selling a product that we've known was deadly for over half a century.

Alcohol is deadly
Eating too much red meat can be deadly
Consuming too much sugar can be deadly
Driving a car can be deadly

Do all of those things in moderation (including smoking) and you'll be fine. Are you seriously arguing that an object shouldn't be sold because it's potentially deadly?

>>5508842
The punishable by death thing came off as mocking.

>>5508847
They're so close to being right with their hatred of government running our lives; they just aren't able to connect the dots between the government and the largest corporations.

>>5508852
i'm sorry;; i just like being aggressive towards bad people

>>5508857
I understand the urge, but you can't fight hate with hate. Only love can defeat it. Unless you move out of the realm of words, in which case action trumps all, especially when that action is violent revolution.

>>5508860
i find the first part a little dubious but i'm on board with violent revolution! have a good day comrade

>>5508865
What's going to make a conservative like gays and blacks, being harassed and called ignorant and stupid by them, or by seeing these groups do good things and be good people?

>>5508837
>Nobody should be banned from somewhere over something they have no choice in.

As abhorrent as I would find a place that set such ridiculous criteria, I do still subscribe to the concept of Freedom of Association. Frankly I'm not sure why someone would want to go to a place that hated and didn't want them, illegal or not.

>>5508837
The only person that should have a choice is the private business owner. If you want 'all welcome no matter what' you should start your own, or frequent a government-run business

>all these fucking statists

Although it's inconvenient for me as a smoker, it tends to wind up being a decent conversation at bars.

There's also a bar around here that has its back patio where you can smoke tented with an outdoor heater during winter.

Of course they banned smoking indoors before I turned 21 so I don't have a reference point of smoking indoors really except when I've stayed after close to chill with the bartenders somewhere or when I worked at one where everyone lit cigarettes up as soon as the doors were closed.

>>5508888
meant a decent conversation starter*

particularly when you're outside of the bar smoking

>>5508876
>>5508879
It's almost like we've forgotten the incredibly ugly history of segregation in our country. Modern times aren't perfect, but they're sure as fuck better than the 50's.

>>5508879
>>5508876

Not saying this is the same thing but I've run across a few places that were basically bars that had a doorbell. I can't think of the specific word for them though.

>>5508894
A speakeasy.

>>5508891
>incredibly ugly history of segregation in our country.

I don't disagree with you in any way. I'm just saying freedom must include the ability to make ugly choices as well as the good ones, or it's not really freedom. If the only choice i have is what's behind Door #1 or what's behind Door #1, how is that really a free choice? This is not meant to condone violence of any kind in any way, shape, or form. All I'm saying is Freedom of Association by definition is exclusionary. It's up to people of good will to simply marginalize the idiots and fools in society. Exposure to ridicule is the surest way to call out idiots who would do this. As things currently are it's just too easy for them to hide.

>>5508908
Hmm. I actually do like your logic. The problem is that the world has more idiots and assholes than smart and/or nice people, so we have to restrict the bad people so things run nice for the good among us. I want to start my own country with people that I choose.

>>5504551
should it be the customers right to shit in the mouths and noses of other paying customers and ruin their dining experience too?

>>5505504
>spout off a list of shit that only exists because of people like you

le ironing face

>>5508917
If the restaurant had a sign out front stating that people could shit in your mouth at any time, would you go in? And if that restaurant could stay open despite that, shouldn't it be allowed to run if consenting adults want to be a part of it?
I can actually understanding not allowing anyone less than 18 in a smoking establishment, but why take the choice away from people who want it? Nobody is forcing you to go into these places.

>>5508927
because of liberals

>>5508891
go back to Africa, nignog. if I wanted to start a club, only whites allowed, it should be my god-given right to do so without the government breathing down my neck with diversity quotas and other new age bullshit.

>>5508964

Technically you are right, you should be able to do that. Many people are in turn free to not go because of your racist policy, but as a business owner, it's your prerogative to make that sort of decision. As >>5508908 said, true freedom means having the right to make some bad decisions.

>>5508964
>if I wanted to start a club, only whites allowed, it should be my god-given right
Rights are not god given. They are, in fact, granted by the state. And in America you could have your little racist whites only club, as long as it was a private club and not a business. You only have to play nice with the brown people when you're taking advantage of your freedom to do business here.

>>5509007
>Rights are not god given. They are, in fact, granted by the state.

This is totally anathema to the very founding concept of the US and the Enlightenment principals the Constitution is based upon. Rights are inherent and exist outside of the State, regardless of whether you think they came from some god, nature, or whatever. At most the state can curtail the practice or exercise of Rights, but even in this case that does not mean they do not exist. Remember any government that gives you something, anything, can also take it away, and that is the diametric opposite of Freedom.

>>5504551

I agree completely.

I guess this is the new tipping thread.

>>5504551
I agree.
Much like business owners have every right to tell gun owners to fuck off and wave thier firearms elsewhere.
They should have the final say on what goes on in their place of business.

>>5505941
Alminum? Nobody fucking says that. We say Aluminum. Sound it out. And then spell it out. Aluminum not aluminium.

>>5505941
>Why does the American society burden its students with literally hundreds of thousands of dollars of debts?
I know this post is a troll thing, but this part here is because students do it to themselves.
You've no one to blame but yourself for spending thousands of dollars on a useless degree for a job thats already flooded with applicants.

I will admit that society itself may be to blame for deluding an entire generation into thinking that you 'need' a college education to get anywhere in life, when theres literally thousands of highly paid tradeskill jobs that need bodies to fill the jobs.

>Smokers breathing in shitty burning tar sticks
>Make others breathe it in too
>Don't give a fuck about the No Smoking X feet from building signs
>Dude i used to work was a human ashtray and could smell him before seeing him
>Many just leave their butts on the ground
That said, I would endorse restaurants to have smoking as long as they had a mandatory sign that said SMOKING (also on website). To encourage smokers to come and non-smokers to avoid.

>>5509039
>This is totally anathema to the very founding concept of the US and the Enlightenment principals the Constitution is based upon.
True. The ideas expressed the Constitution are a fantasy we've agreed to accept as reality because the pretty words of the Enlightenment make us all feel so noble. But try doing something the government disapproves of, and watch how quickly your supposed god given rights disappear. Try growing India hemp, as George Washington recommended, for example, and see what happens to you. You could also try selling unpasteurized milk from your own fucking cows, and tell me about how the Constitution protects you. You don't even have free speech - try making public statements about about the shit conditions under whicj our meat is raised and processed, and you can lose your freedom, depending on what state you happen to be in.

Rights are indeed granted by the state. regardless of pretty words on paper.

>>5504641

Cars are useful. Cigarettes are not.

yeah, sounds reasonable, until you remember that smoking cigarettes is fucking retarded.

>>5508847

Capitalism is the least way of running things.

A healthy, expanding economy is wonderfully freeing for everyone from the bottom to the top.

>>5509267

You missed the point.
The point is that why cry about "secondhand smoke" when there is far worse pollution around? Stopping people from smoking in public places improves air quality the same way that filtering a single drop of water out of a swimming pool would improve the water.

>>5508854

That's because what we have isn't really capitalism. It is sometimes close, but not often.

>>5509249
>Rights are indeed granted by the state. regardless of pretty words on paper.

Each and every one of your examples serve to further my point that government is only capable of denying rights, not granting them.

>>5508854
>connect the dots between the government and the largest corporations.

Sounds like a government problem, not a business problem.

The two need to be separate. Business ought not to influence the government at all.

>>5508847
Nobody said it was perfect. It still beats the alternative.

>>5509424

that is a really destructive mindset.

>>5509424

You missed the point. Why complain about people using a necessary thing like cars before complaining about people polluting through completely useless means like smoking cigarettes?

>>5509267
>Cars are useful. Cigarettes are not.
To you, perhaps, to someone else, maybe not.

My point is, it is simply impossible to live in a world with other people and not be affected, sometimes negatively by them. If that is your desire, short of moving 500 miles from the nearest person and living like a hermit, you're SOL.

>>5509447

>to you

No, cigarettes are not useful to anyone. Their only purpose is to slowly kill you.

>>5509440
Because the use of combustion engines is literally killing the planet? Well, the planet will survive. We won't.

>>5509465
How do you define useful?

>>5509424
Snowball effect? Everyone does little things, it has a bigger overall impact.

>>5509473
How is eliminating the minuscule amount of smoke from cigarettes going to stop the disgusting amounts of industrial smoke that is pumped into the air every second?

>>5509465
>cigarettes are not useful to anyone.
You are making a subjective statement. Perhaps for some the pleasure derived outweighs and potential deleterious health effects. I know plenty of people who live by the motto: Live well, not long.

>>5509465
>I have no purpose for this thing, so nobody must have one

I know a lot of people who get more use out of smokes than automobiles.

>>5509486
Less people smoking and directly putting pollution into the air.

Less factories making cigarettes.

Less trucks driving cigarettes around.

>>5509487

>being forced to take a cigarette break from every day activities
>getting nicotine fits
>spending a fuckton of money
>coughing fits
>breathing problems

>live well

>>5509487

>live well
>with crippled lungs, low energy levels, and emotional dependence

Smokers live short and shitty.

>>5509496
You're fucking joking, right? What does that do about literally every other source of pollution on the planet not connected to cigarettes, which is basically all of it? Just admit that you're wrong.

>>5509432
Rights granted by the government usually apply to corporate interests. Stuff like the right to pollute, use up natural resources, operate on government subsidies or contracts...

>>5509434
>Business ought not to influence the government at all.
That's a nice fantasy. Get back to me when you figure how to separate money and power from each other.

>>5509499
>>5509503
>mommy told me not to smoke!
FTFY

>>5509506
I don't even know what you're talking about now you faggot-ass bitch. You're trying to come up with a way to stop polluting the entire planet all at once? Well, you're not going to. You can at least do WHAT YOU CAN TO HELP OUT IN SOME WAY, EVEN IF SOME ASSHOLE ON THE INTERNET THINK IT'S NOT GOOD ENOUGH.

>>5509506

just admit that you're a fatal pessimist who can't see the forest for the trees.

>>5509511

>mommy told me not to smoke so i did because i'm an adult and i'm way too edgy too give a shit about my well-being!

^you

>>5509513
No, I'm someone with perspective who understands what the real issues are. Cigarette related pollution is a tiny, insignificant fraction of overall worldwide pollution.

>I don't even know what you're talking about now

>>5509512
You never did. You are perpetually missing the point.

>>5509499
>>5509503

I quit after 28 years, but I would never presuppose to think that my subjective experience and reasons for quitting represent some sort of objective truism for everyone on the planet. Hell, my grandfather for 75 years smoked 2 packs a day, chewed Mail Pouch, and cheap cigars right up to the day he died at age 90 when he rolled a tractor over on himself accidentally.

>>5509513
Also, how am I the one missing the forest for the trees? You're all caught up on a tiny aspect of pollution, when the biggest aspect of it is too precious to you to get rid of. Cognitive dissonance at its finest.

>>5509512
Your strategy for "helping" is akin to using a teaspoon to remove sand from a container, while there are thousands of dump trucks pouring more in. Whatever happened to progressive people being cool? My whole political movement is all whiny children, and I'm starting to want nothing to do with it.

>>5509523

you can be focused on BOTH the larger issue and a smaller related issue, you know.

>>5509538
I don't see any fucking progress being made on climate change. I think the focus has been a little too heavy on the comparatively insignificant, barely related issue. Mainstream liberal priorities in America are all out of whack. The only people who talk any sense are survivalist hippies living off the grid.

>>5509526
And if everybody starts removing more sand, there will be less trucks pouring sand in. Why are you so against this? This seems retarded. You're just looking for something to be extreme about, and anyone who isn't as extreme is a SHEEP ENEMY MUST BE DESTROYED. Some people have other things to worry about, too. Not everyone can dedicate themselves entirely to YOUR cause.

>>5509544
This is the fourth point in a row that you have missed. It's not that we shouldn't focus on reducing pollution; it's that cigarettes are not a real source of pollution when compared to combustion engines. Everyone seems to want to jump on the cause of taking away my freedom to smoke, but nobody wants to take away Big Oil's freedom to destroy the planet.

>>5509562
I guess. You never made your point perfectly clear so I was just arguing against what you said.

You're also being short-sighted. The cigarettes themselves aren't a huge source of pollution, but what about the factories making them? The farms growing the tobacco? The trucks shipping everything around?

You're WAY TOO EXTREME and you can't see anything other than what you want to see.

>>5509574
You know what else is extreme? The guaranteed 10 feet that the sea level is going to rise in the next century. Cigarettes didn't have shit to do with that.

>>5509586
Yeah, because cigarette factories won't pop up in developing countries, along with the trucks and farms. Future people won't get cancer and die from cigarettes. Maybe one of those people could've stopped the sea level from rising. Your mind is closed off, so there's no point in arguing with you anymore.

>>5509589
Maybe an aborted black from the bronx would have become the next god emperor, maybe if Hitler lived we'd live in a glorious community of supermen unaffected by cancer.

>>5509589
>your mind is closed off
No, it isn't. The stuff about the factories and trucks is hogwash. You're acting like the cigarette industry isn't just a small contributor to that small. There are so many other industries, and so many that contribute so much more pollution with their factories and trucks, but I don't see you calling for them to be destroyed.
The only way we could have stopped the sea levels from rising would have been to prevent a giant chunk of Antarctica from melting because of rising global temperature, but we'd rather have our precious fire machines.

>>5509605
>to that small
Meant to type "to that problem"

>>5509604
Yeah, that's the same thing as not wanting random people to become diseased and die.

>>5509605
Let's just kill everybody. K?

>>5509619
Because that's totally what I said. Fuck off, troll. Serves me right for trying to have a serious discussion on 4chan. At least, I hope you're trolling, because otherwise you're just really bad at debating.

>>5509619
What's your opinion on drug legalization/harm reduction?

>>5509630
>Serves me right for trying to have a serious discussion on 4chan.
>Hitler and god emperors
I don't think you were trying.

>>5509637
Making drugs illegal doesn't seem to do anything. Making drugs illegal means people are less picky about what they take, and take things that are terrible because it's all they have.

Some drugs have legitimate benefits.

Educate people on drugs. Help people have stronger social bonds and build stronger communities. Give people reasons to not want to abuse drugs in the first place, don't just try to hide the drugs.

>>5509670
That Hitler guy wasn't me. I was the one making cogent points.

But you want cigarettes to be illegal? You understand that the logic does not hold up, right? I agree with you on education and legalization. I have addiction problems, and my brother died from a heroin overdose, but I think the best thing for this country would be complete legalization of all drugs, and spend all of that money on free treatment for anyone who wants it. However, cigarettes are one of the drugs that I think should be freely available to anyone who wants them, and establishments should have the right to let people use those drugs if they want to. Especially in the case of harder drugs; doing them in a safe, controlled setting around other people is so much better than going off and doing them alone.

>>5509678
I guess they don't have to be illegal. People just not smoking would be better, or at least not smoking chemical-laden cigarettes with cheap paper. I understand your problems, and I'm sorry to hear about your brother. It would help to educate people on what drugs exactly are, and help people who abuse drugs to understand WHY they're abusing them in the first place.

I wasn't really arguing for cigarettes to be illegal, I suppose. Just that "his business his rules" doesn't really hold up, and that cigarettes can/do cause significant harm.

>>5509701
>chemical-laden cigarettes with cheap paper

That's why I smoke American Spirits. I would have no problem with regulations being passed that outlawed adding anything to cigarettes. Even if there is no health benefit at all(which I have a hard time believing, since not smoking extra chemicals has to be better than smoking extra chemicals) the taste is so much better
I'm sure we have a lot in common politically; 4chan just brings out the worst in people, and I definitely have some extreme views, but I temper my naive idealism with jaded cynicism. I've never met someone who wasn't offended by at least one of my views, but I'm okay with that. I stand by them.

>any year
>believing second-hand smoke is a health hazard

I mean I'm glad you can't smoke in movie theaters, but damn.

>>5509711
I suggest American Spirits to people who smoke cigarettes, but in the same way that I'd suggest food.

If you can avoid adding extra chemicals in anything, you should. Just like with food.

And it's fine to stick by your views, I just didn't know what they were from the start. Although it's not as easy to do that when random people can jump into a discussion at any time.

>>5509719
>smoking in movie theaters

Makes me want set up a single screen theater that's operated as a private club with a membership, and you that gets you delicious food, an open bar, and the ability to smoke in the theater if you so desire. Would this work?

>>5509724
American Spirits taste like garbage and don't burn right. If you're going to give yourself cancer, just do it like a man and get Marlboros.

>>5507621
I dont know where "here " is, but in most states you can't even allow children in a bar unless it is also a restaurant

>>5509730
Depends from area to area. Sounds like you'd need to sell memberships and require them for entry. The smoking policies would need to be clearly spelled out and all your employees would have to have memberships with signatures.

>>5504551
>1. It should be the owner's right to allow smoking or not in HIS restaurant/bar/pub since HE'S the one who's paying for what happens inside HIS four walls
Agree
>2. If the customers don't like it, they can patronize another business
Agree, and I would.
>3. If the workers don't like it, they can find another job
Agree
>4. It shouldn't be the government's duty to regulate how people do business
Agree

>>5510512
I feel like Hyde when I'm drunk and only smoke camel unfiltered or a whole pack of new ports at night.

>>5511845
>new ports
roody poo, plz go

Smoker here. I'm glad I can enjoy a smoke-free environment when dining/drinking.

Suck it.

>people still believe smoking is bad for you

Wooow, the whole "smoking is bad" thing came from bad science in the 1950s. It's been disproven now. Native Americans have smoked for thousands of years.

People who are upset about not smoking for two hours should go get some therapy.