/ck/ - Food & Cooking

I don't, but I'd like to say that if that loaf of bread in the picture is yours, I'm envious. I did a working interview at a local artisan bread company, and jesus christ the process of bread-making is fucking beautiful.

A few weeks ago I went to this Italian restaurant that had this wonderful bread with oil cured(?) olives in it. I'd love to try replicating it, but I've limited experience with bread. Where should Istart?

>>4743070
It's a really satisfying hobby. As a career, it can be really demanding. Unlike a lot of cooking, with baking you're always chasing moving targets that operate independently of one another. Flour hydration, yeast activity, ambient temperature, ambient humidity, and water temperature can vary wildly and have a huge impact on the product.

>>4743099
Oil cured olives are delicious, and relatively easy to make at home. At my last restaurant job, I made a 5 gallon bucket of them each week so that we always had a fresh supply of fully cured olives for the patrons. What kind of bread was it? Was the crumb tight, or big and airy? Was the bread flat, or round?

>>4743190
Round, it was airy, though not extremely so.

Op I recently got into baking bread for my family.

So far I have made Soda bread a few times (easy), fococcia once and Chef John's cibatta.

What are some basic types of breads I can make that will impress my family? Im looking for breads that can be used as thick-cut toast in the morning and sandwiches in the afternoon, not so much flavorful 'dinner' breads (IE Focaccia).

I make tomato sauce really often now. I won't get into semantics shit, I call it spaghetti. It's just red meat sauce and noodles.
I really want bread to start making my own bread too, for dipping in the excess sauce. What would you make?

>>4743267
Not OP, but as mentioned above Fococcia would be great for that.

I would just stay away from anything too dark.

What exactly do I need to start OP?

Should I invest in a bread maker or mixer or should I just start with a loaf tin and a mixing bowl?

I've only ever made a delicious garlic and rosemary foccacia and I think we made farmhouse style loaves at primary school.

>>4743245
If it was at an Italian restaurant, then it may have been a variant of Pugliese bread, which tends to be rounder and has a denser crumb than Ciabatta. You're probably looking at something with 65% water (baker's percentage). The key with any add-in in bread (olives, nuts, seeds, fruits, etc) is to throw it in there after you've already kneaded the dough to just under windowpane. This is especially true of oil-cured olives, since the fat will inhibit gluten formation and will result in a dense bread if you don't add them in to the dough at the very end (and work it very little after they are well incorporated).

>>4743259
Soda bread is easy, but super delicious. My wife nearly cried the first time I made it for her, since she has a lot of fond childhood memories of eating it in Ireland. Most breads are pretty impressive to family, I'd think. You'd be surprised how many "artisan" breads, when baked in a loaf pan, actually make really wonderful thick cut toast and sandwich bread. In general, however, toast and sandwich breads tend to have a pretty high amount of fat in them to provide that dense, tender texture. Too much and you've basically made a cake, though. Try 100% flour (90/10 bread/WW), 62% water, 4% olive oil, 2.5% salt, 2% non-diastatic malt powder, and 0.3% yeast. Make sure to give the bread however much time it needs during bulk ferment/proof to let it achieve the correct volume, though. I would bake something that has that much fat at 375F in a loaf pan. Any hotter and it's unlikely the center will cook.

>>4743428
Looks like too much scoring. Any particular reason for this or you just wanted a certain look?

>>4743267
>>4743273
Focaccia would be a good choice, as would almost any artisan loaf that has a crumb that is relatively wide open. That would include things like Ciabatta, Pugliese, baguettes, Pain de Campagne, Reinhardt's Pain a l'Ancienne, etc. I would tend toward doughs that have relatively high hydration, utilize a bulk retard in the refrigerator, and have low quantity of yeast so as to allow the flavor to really develop in the bread.

>>4743274
Forget bread makers and mixers. You need two hands, a sheet tray (baking pan, cookie sheet, whatever you want to call it), flour, water, salt, and yeast. That's it. Everything else is negotiable, though items like a cast iron pan on the bottom of the oven to help generate steam and a baking stone are really helpful. Breads that are really high hydration can be a pain to knead by hand until you either pick up a mixer or learn the slap and fold method. For that reason, I would tend toward loaves that are under 65% hydration to start. It will make it easier for you to knead on a counter.

Diastatic malt is great in making "Italian Bread" - a dark, soft, chewy loaf that's great for sandwiches. I also use it in making whole wheat mash breads, as it brings out a great deal of sweetness in the mash.

>>4743428
Thanks for the idea! I think i'll go make some soda bread in a loaf pan.

Also, here are some pictures of the cibatta and soda breads i've made so far.

>>4743472

>>4743476
cibatta. used this for BBQ chicken sandwiches

>>4743428
Thank you very much for your help.

>>4743439
Just going for the look.

>>4743448
Thanks for the tips. I'm going to try it with a sourdough loaf later today, since most of what I've read indicates that it's best used in slow-ferment breads.

>>4743190
yeah i work at a bakery that is like 90% sourdough breads

whenever i close my eyes before sleeping after working night shifts i kind of get haunted with the sound of the counterweight scale we have clinking down and then loaves moving across the table waiting to be shaped

you are right too, balancing water levels/temperature and stuff according to the ambient temperature is a lot to think about and really affects the progression of the day. Messing it up can put everyone out by half an hour or force a dough to go into the over over/underproved, etc. I'm still pretty new so the brainwork that goes into mixing and processing bread is pretty new to me.

I've been trying to bake a basic wheat/whole wheat bread.

I've had trouble with my dough rising. I bought yeast in packets from the supermarket. I don't know but it never foams up.

How hot does the water have to be?

Bread turned out pretty good today. Diastatic malt definitely changed the crust color and texture. Also seemed to speed along the bulk fermentation. I had to attend to an emergency mid-proof, so the loaves were shoved into a refrigerator and definitely were not room temp when they were baked. All the same, they look pretty good.

>>4743014
Are you putting HFCS in your bread? If not, you should. Its the way to do it now.

always a pleasure seeing your threads FF.
Every time i walk away with some new bit of knowledge.

Been having a crack at rye bread, cooking out of 'Healthy Bread in 5 Minutes a Day'. Not getting any rise while baking though, as you can see the crumb is pretty dense... too flat :(

This time I even tried more yeast and vital wheat gluten. Got more spring in the first and second rises but still turned out dense. Im using stoneground bakers flour, that may be the issue.

>>4744899
That looks about right for a rye bread. You'll never get much rise out of something that is more than 30% rye.

>>4744935
I see. thanks

Also made some sweet cornbread which went down well with peanut butter

Damn nice, OP. I'm a professional baker myself (I don't do a lot of home baking, I get enough at work) and your scoring looks pretty damn nice. Would use for sandwiches/10.

>>4744864
I hate you

>>4744946
I love you

>>4744946
Thanks, bud. I actually used to do quite a bit of R&D consulting for medium and large format bakeries, and I understand what you're saying about not wanting to take your work home with you. I always found that when slashing in the bakeshop, I was able to get much nicer, more consistent slashes because I could settle into a groove after 20-30 loaves. At home, I only bake 1-8 loaves at a time, and I never really get into that same groove, which probably explains some portion of the variability in my slashing patterns. I'm also always fighting the inherent difficulties of baking at home: no real proof box, home oven, etc. I'm glad to be able to make my love of baking bread back into a hobby, though. It's much more enjoyable that way.

>>4745005
How'd you make those? I saw your thread the other day and I really want to make som baguettes as you can't buy nice bread in melbourne for less that $7.

I would be delighted if you could give me a recipie or even just some tips.

can you relink that youtube video of yours?

>>4743014

That looks fucking disgusting.

>>4745039
Don't listen to >>4743014 your bread looks fab.

i gotta start baking again. its been a good 2 months

>>4745045
It gives me the jeepers.

>>4745031
what suburb you living in? I'm melbourne too and my bakery does a lot of wholesale, we probably ships out to some organic foodstore or deli near you. we sell our loaves for about $5.50 in the retail store but idk what other people charge for it

my bakery doesn't have a website but i work at pure bread bakery

>>4745077
I'm in thornbury.

>>4743014
That bread looks like a rotten watermelon

>>4745030
http://youtu.be/MJGqSC2RpD8

>>4745031
Baguettes are one of those things you have to practice a lot before they come out even close to the commercial variant. I'm rusty these days, and my baguettes clearly show that. With that said, I always prefer a wetter formulation, though it makes it difficult to shape and roll. I believe these were 72% hydration (baker's percentage) with a long overnight bulk ferment to help firm up the dough a bit, rolled out when they were still a little cold. Baguettes also should be baked at a high temp (in my case, 550F with convection) with generous steam. To get a baguette to bloom like the ones in my photo, you need to create almost vertical overlapping slashes, so that they force one another open during oven spring.

Here's the crumb from last night's bread. I have to say, I'm sold on the diastatic malt. There's no discernible sugar or malt flavor, but the loaf is significantly more sour, and had a much more consistent rise during ferment/proof. It's pretty excellent.

The purple streaks are what walnut oil does to white flour when it's left for enough time.

>>4745088
twins

beginner breadmaking question:

every time i try a recipe i end up with a way too sticky dough and need to add handfuls of flour to get it right.
i must be doing something horribly wrong?

>>4745809
Not all bread doughs should be dry and smooth. Some are very wet. I've made breads where the dough is so wet and thin that it pours out of the bowl. Still makes some excellent bread.

>>4745809

Try letting the flour soak for a half hour (autolyse). The dough should be less sticky then.

Other beginner here.

I tried making bread with that "no knead" recipe. It's sat overnight, but I still have this weird runny dough that has a pretty serious alcohol smell. Is that anywhere even close to normal? Is the alcohol smell normal, or do I need to just start over?

> Diastatic malt

try using that on other shit like mashed potatoes or other starchy things

i wanna get my hands on some of that

Not working on anything myself lately, but glad to see this thread going strong. If anyones going to make a good breadthread, its you.

>>4745984
Alcohol smell is normal. Alcohol is a byproduct of yeast doing their normal yeasty things. It'll all cook off in the oven.

>>4746073
Thanks.

It doesn't seem to be doing any rising or anything... Just kinda... wet, sticky, I dunno...

Do you find that the brand of flour makes any difference in your baking? If so, what brands would you rate the best?

>>4745984
>>4746085
Baker's yeast is very similar to the yeast used in alcohol fermentation. The only reason bread isn't alcoholic is because what little there is flashes off in the baking process. With that said, if you're not getting any rise in your bread, then there are a few things you should be considering. First, are you using instant or active dry yeast? If active dry, be sure to bloom it in lukewarm water prior to adding it to the dough. Second, are you letting the dough sit at ambient temperatures or in the fridge? Yeast really likes to be around 70-80F for maximum leavening performance. Third, how are you measuring rise? No-knead breads work the way they do because they have incredibly small quantities of yeast in them. This means that they rise really, really slowly, and without a strong objective method of measurement, it can sometimes seem like there is no leavening occurring. Also be sure you're leaving it for enough time.

>>4746001
Will do. It's pretty cheap and easy to find these days. King Arthur's website has a pound of it for very cheap.

>>4746216
High protein bread flour is predominantly what I use. I usually shoot for the unbleached/unbromated variety. King Arthur's bread flour is great stuff, and produces a really strong gluten matrix that can support substantial oven spring. Gold Medal is okay, but not great. Bob's Red Mill is short on the protein, in my experience. These days I buy Central Milling's High Mountain Organic flour (13% protein, I believe) in 50 lb bags and use that almost exclusively. It's great stuff.

>>4746216
I should also add that I almost always blend multiple kinds of flours. I find that even just a touch of coarse whole wheat or coarse rye can really improve the flavor of a loaf that is nearly 100% white flour. I've also been known to use spelt, quinoa flour, semolina/durum, flax meal, etc. Sometimes you need to supplement with a little vital wheat gluten to account for the low gluten content of these flours/meals, but they can really add something special to the bread.

>>4746279 If active dry, be sure to bloom it in lukewarm water

That hasn't been necessary for many years. Today's active dry yeast is different than in the past. I never proof mine. I just mix it in dry with the flour, as I do with instant yeast. It works exactly the same, with the same amount.

>>4746307
Then you have special active dry yeast. I've gone through a pound of the SAF Active Dry in the last 6 months, and adding it directly to a dough severely limits the yeast's performance. Using the SAF Instant, on the other hand, does not produce the same problem.

I can't say it makes much sense to have two different kind of yeast if they both work "exactly the same, with the same amount." Maybe you use a different brand.

>>4746321

Red Star.

I agree it doesn't make sense to have both. No idea why they even bother. They're basically interchangeable with no difference whatsoever. The granules do look slightly different though, but just barely.

http://www.kingarthurflour.com/recipe/yeast.html

"What's the difference between active dry yeast (ADY) and instant yeast?

In days gone by there was a significant difference between active dry yeast and instant yeast. Today, the difference is minimal, and the two can be used interchangeably—with slightly different results. Let's look at ADY first. "

>>4746279
I've got an instant yeast (Red Star instant). I had let the dough sit out for about 14 hours or so last night on the counter. My place is ~70F. It was fairly wet at that point in time though. It was really bubbly when I started working with it.

I ended up adding some flour to it to make it... less wet?... Then I let it sit for a couple hours and went ahead and cooked it. It was somewhat... stringy at this point?

What I ended up with is on the left. It looks fairly decent, but I don't know how it's gonna taste.

>>4743014
That looks like a rotten watermelon
would accidentally throw away/10

>>4746456


>What? That doesn't look like Wonderbread at all! Man, fuck this!

>>4745088
if yr ever out in northcote there's a health food store called TERRA MADRE that stocks our bread.

I'll try and make a mental note next time i'm packing bread tho, I'm pretty sure we ship somewhere to thornbury

>>4747120
actually i think that some joint called CRUNCH CAFE gets our bread in thornbury, but mostly the turkish and light rye bread we make

i made some cupcakes for a party yesterday. it got me a job offer at a bakery! i'm very excited about that

>>4744864
you disgusting monster

>>4747122
Thanks, I'll try to find one of these places and eat your bread.

>>4745777
Thank you. I will keep these tips in mind for next time. I tried to make some yesterday. They werte pretty nice. Nice enough for me to almost finish them all before considering taking a picture for you. Here's an afterthought breakfast photo.

>>4743014
>Spending time on flour patterns
Is your wife dominant or something?

>>4750070
that's just from a rising basket

>>4750070
Sometimes when I'm done doing the chores she's assigned to me, I like to paint flour lines on loaves of bread to keep from crying.

That or it's just the way a coiled banneton makes a loaf of bread look when you use it for proofing.

>>4750716
what are your percentages for pizza dough? looks good

Hey op or any other cool breadmakers, I had two questions. I like to favor myself somewhere between a beginner to amateur breadbaker, usually just make foccacia/ciabatta/baguettes (shitty ones). My questions are:

1: what technique do you guys use for kneading your breads? it might just be because im always working with 70-80% hydration formulas, but almost everytime I try to knead by hand it turns into a horrible sticky mess (usually I'll just autolyse > stretch/fold). part of me wants to blame the game but im also pretty sure I just suck ass at kneading

2. any sources/recommendations for fancy nerd flours? i was wanting to source some stoneground organic flours but none of the stores around here carry any. ive found some mills online that ship but the shipping on a 50# bag of flour is murderous. additionally, how much of a difference do "artisan" flours make compared to what I can buy at the grocery store?

FF, you told me in another thread that there were many things wrong with this recipe, but you did not elaborate. Could you tell me so that I can stop making whatever mistakes I am making?

>>4752609
It varies from batch to batch. General rules are high protein flour, high hydration dough, low quantities of yeast, overnight refrigerated bulk retard, and full proofing prior to baking at 550F on a stone. Start with 100% flour, 70% water, 2.5% salt, 0.2% yeast.

>>4753966
Argh, I wrote a long answer to your question in the other thread that is now long gone. That's annoying. Bread is pretty forgiving, so if you're happy with the results, then keep on keeping on! My primary arguments were: don't add salt with blooming yeast, don't restrict yourself to all of the dumb ultra-specific directions, it is not an everything dough, there's way too much yeast, there's no point in making a sponge if you're only going to let it ferment for 2-3 hours, there is too little time dedicated to bulk ferment/proofing and no description of allowing those steps to proceed until a certain volume is met, and a few others.

>>4754223

Okay, so I don't expect you to type absolutely everything out, but what m I doing that I don't need to be doing? When should I add the salt, how much yeast should I use, and when should I add it if I'm not making a sponge?

Thanks for the help.

>>4753641

Most of my breads are about 75% hydration. I knead them all by hand by using the stretch and fold method (look this up on The Fresh Loaf if you're not familiar with it)

Handling wet dough can be a challenge, but the trick is to use wet hands and a quick, light touch. I dip my bench scraper in cold water to prevent the dough from sticking to it.

>>4753641
Sorry, didn't see your post.

1. I stretch and fold, or slap/stretch/fold wet doughs.
2. I don't know where to find them online. One of the benefits of living in LA is that I can find a lot of them in local natural food/hippy shops. They definitely add a unique flavor, but at the end of the day, most of my breads are made with King Arthur bread or whole wheat flours.

>>4754240
The most basic process for bread baking is mix, knead, bulk ferment, shape, proof, slash, bake, cool, eat. You can add a bulk-retard before the bulk ferment by putting the dough in the fridge. You can add a preshape then bench rest before the shape if you want to give your breads a little more consistency between loaves. You can mix flour and water together prior to adding anything else and allow it to rest for 30 minutes (aka autolyse). There's no real WRONG way to make bread, but that recipe is just stupid. Spend some time poking around The Fresh Loaf and you'll get a good sense for some of the dos and don'ts. I posted a link to a youtube video earlier in this thread that I made a while ago that covers how I make a rye sourdough loaf.

so OP I work at a small bakery and do mostly sales. I can knead but that's just about it. after reading the thread im curious. the baking process in the bakery consists of
1) Mixing
2) letting rise
3) kneading
4) one more rise before going into the oven

Am I missing out on a bunch of essential elements of baking? the bakery I work at just seems to have such a simple process compared to what you're talking about on here