/ck/ - Food & Cooking

>>4610572
If you can't use the "Fork to carve" knife there for anything and everything in the kitchen then you're an amateur.

>>4610572
A chef's or a santoku

And a paring knife

All you need

Go with the plain Cook Knife for now. Learn how to use it and become familiar with knife handling/safety. Once you become more adept at the skill of knife handling, you can go for more particular specialty knives that suit youre needs.

IMO though there really isn't much a basic chef knife can't do. Most of those specialty knives are really gimmicky.

>>4610601
>>4610603
I appreciate all the good information, but what I'm trying to ask is what's a good brand?

>>4610609

How much are you willing to spend? Henckels makes some pretty decent blades that are pretty affordable. Obviously Wustof or Shun are more on the upper end of the line, but I wouldn't recommend spending too much on your first knife until you know what you want.

>>4610613
Henckels and Wusthof are names I keep seeing again and again. Do the Germans just know how to make good knives or what?

Less than $50 probably. I know Wusthof is supposed to be really nice, though.

>>4610613
Wustof feels like they aren't what they used to be, but their customer service is still excellent if that means anything to you.

>>4610609
That kind of depends on what you're willing to spend, and what kind of sharpening skills you have. I'd say buy a more affordable knife and invest in some flat stones. After a couple years of you being able to keep the knife as sharp as factory condition, then you can look into a 200+ dollar blade.

>>4610618
Germany was the major steel competitor for Toledo before they fell out of favor. Unfortunately for the world, Germany hasn't outgrown the type of treachery they showed the Spanish, steel blanks are often made in Germany but shaped and treated in developing nations to be labeled "Solingen steel". This is not a mark of quality beyond the raw materials, the treat and temper are often fucked or more insultingly, partial.

>>4610618

Germans make quality steel. Always have. They are preferred by "old school" chefs. They are typically made of carbon steel and are very durable/heavy

There has been a huge rise in popularity of japanese style knives. They are made of thinner/lighter steels and are sharpened at lower angles. IMO they are definitely sharper than german knives but are much more delicate. They can rust or chip/break/shatter easily. Shun is pretty much the go-to japanese style brand, but there are definitely others.

Are cooking knives like outdoor ones? Should I buy a full tang?

>>4610752
A full tang is a basic sign of quality and durability in all knives, yes.

>ctrl+f "MAC"
>no results
>tfw you're on /ck/ instead of doing your HACCPs

Really all you need are 4 items. The first is a good french (Chef) knife, as big as is comfortable to hold - this is where you spend your money. My best advice is to go out and try as many as you can: there's an astonishing range of profiles and handles out there. When in doubt, Swibo/ F. Dick knives can be had for practically nothing and are great for learning with (and you can grind those fuckers down into boning knives one day, cool shit no?). The second is a pairing/ petty knife - feel free to cheap out here as long as the steel is alright, my $10 Kershaw (3" High Carbon Stainless model 9900) has served me well for the last 5 years. The third is a breadknife or slicer that you can use for bread - I'm a huge fan of the MAC SB105 because it's double duty, but any breadknife is fine for home use. The fourth is a good steel, diamond or ceramic depending on how brittle your knives are. Learn how to keep your knives in good working order.

Sharpening is a whole other deal and frankly, unless you're really set on doing everything yourself a professional sharpening a few times a year is going to be better and cheaper.

>>4610572
>Who makes a good chef's knife for an amateur?
How long do you have?

Seriously, there's gotta me like 50 makers to choose from and that's just going with brand names. Including no-name blades from the dollar/pound/Euro store and choppers from Chinese grocers it's probably in the hundreds. Pic related.

>>4610572
Victorinox/Forschner. Their Fibrox-handled chef's knife and paring knife are top quality and surprisingly affordable for premium-grade knives.

>>4610752
Many outdoor knives don't have full tangs (as in scales riveted to full-profile tang) but partial, hidden, rat-tail / stick, or push tangs, and a knife made this way can still be great quality.

So, just like with outdoor knives although desirable it's not a necessary feature. Any of the kitchen knives with the moulded plastic handles — e.g the Victorinox Fibrox — there's no guarantee how large or long the tang is, but they last and last in commercial kitchens. So their construction method is more than good enough for the home cook, no matter how much they use the knife.

Worst-case scenario if a push-tang knife ever did come free of its handle you just clean up the hole and tang and epoxy them back together. Fix will cost all of five bucks, tops, and you should get another two decades out of it no problem although if you do it right it'll last indefinitely.

Wusthof 12" master race here.

My dick is average.

>this entire thread

It's like you guys get all your knife knowledge from shitty talking points given to the macy's knife salesman by the product rep.

>>4610792
>F. Dick knives
Except that F. Dick, like Wusthof, is the poster child for a German pattern chef knife and handles nothing like a French chef.

>>4613443
Dear god
How do weild that machete

>full tang
>german steel
>santoku
Every now and again /ck/ has a good knife thread. This isn't one of those.

>>4613467
It's a Wusthof, so it's not like he's worried about precision. Just pretend it's a hammer and hit shit.

>>4613447
Not everyone, some people are trying to make meaningful recommendations based on common sense and firsthand knowledge. But of course they're going to be in the minority given where we are; just something we have to expect.

i like wusthof because it's a heavier knife and feels good in my hand. i've used those dexters and vic fibrox before, but they're just a bit light for my preference.

what it boils down to, in all honesty, is purchasing the correct tool for the job. like, you're not going to use >>4613443 to chop veg, just like you're not going to use your 8" to hack bone.

if it's your first time around the block, pick up a set of those Dexters on the cheap. 8", pairing, bread and a steel.
they're great for newbies and after you're sure about your career choice (and you will come to a point where you question it. everyone does.) you can move on to pricier options if you so choose - many don't!

>>4611795
I'll second Victorinox for your first set of knifes. Best knife for really cheap.

>victorinox and dexter and german garbage everywhere

I guess all the people with sense are off doing fourth of july bbq.

>>4614076
francophile or weeaboo? either way you're are opinion's shite, m8y.

>>4614076
You know you want a 7-piece F. Dick set, bro. You know it.

Looking over this thread it'll be a losing proposition, but for a first decent knife people should be looking at the Fujiwara FKM 240mm gyuto. That and a paring and bread knife will last anyone for years for around $125 all in.

>>4614090
>muy german battleaxe!
I'd care about your opinion but we both know all you've never held a good Sab or high end gyuto in your life. But I'm sure your mom's Wusthof is the balls.

>>4614076
What is wrong with Victorinox? They're decently cheap knifes, and they work well. They might not be the top of their field, but for your average cook, they're some of the best you can find. After all, not everyone want's to spend $100 on a knife. Instead, you can get a set of Victorinox for that price.

>>4614102
>you can get a set of Victorinox for that price
And why on earth would you ever want to do that? You won't use anything but the chef, bread, and paring, and for $100 or just a hair over you can get a genuinely good chef knife (and one that's not undersized like the 8" chef that goes in every damn set on the market), a cheaper paring (a $5 Winners/Marshals clearance paring knife will work just as well), and a proper 10" Victorinox bread/serrated pastry knife.

>>4614091
Someone could set themselves up with three main knives that'll last years (even if used in a commercial operation) for quite a bit less than the Fujiwara. They'd probably have enough left to get a steel as well!

>>4614102
What is wrong with not settling for the least bad product possible? Knives are like shoes and outerwear - only suckers cheap out on them.

>>4614094
up for a bet?

I'll snap my entire set of Shuns if I can't brunoise two apples in the time it takes you to do one.

>>4614116
They can't set themselves up with a chef's knife that'll take as good an edge as easily and has anywhere near as good a profile for multitasking. The Fuji is the best entry level option if you want a French style chef knife, and the only reason somebody would think a German pattern is better for general use when it's shit for paring or slicing work is ignorance.

If you just want cheap shit then sure, get cheap shit, but bargain and value is cost v. quality, and it's the best value out there right now if somebody wants a good knife and not just whatever cheapest crap they can dig up at the Salvation Army.

>>4614111
Because Victorinox's chef knifes are great and $30. Hell, you can get a set with a bread knife, 8 inch chefs knife, 6 inch chefs knife and a pairing knife for $80 on amazon. And it will be more then good enough for your average cook.

>>4614119
Compare it to driving. Would it make sense to drive a ferrari if you are only driving to work and back and around town? Or would it be better to get a practical car that will also accomplish all of the tasks you need, and will cost a fraction of the price.

>>4614127
>Shun
Figured if you had a Jap knife it'd be the one that goes full retard with a German profile, since nothing says you're an idiot who doesn't know what he's doing like getting a knife that pairs a profile meant for rock chopping and rough work with thin steel meant for precision slicing. Shun takes the negative points of German and Japaese knives and fuses them together into a monument to clusterfuckery.

>>4614102
Don't agree on getting a set (they're usually a poor selection of knives so it's better to pick what you really need) but there's nothing wrong with Victorinox's quality.

People who look down their noses at them are usually elitist snobs, and their opinions are just as likely to be valid as you'd expect.

I can guarantee a lot of people who shitpost about them are using their price point to simply guess at their quality — it's cheap, it can't be good — and have never used one, maybe never even held one, and have certainly never done a long-term comparison of them against knives that costs many times as much. Such a comparison has been done, in a busy working kitchen environment, and Victorinox was one of the top picks, beating out many knives that cost five or six times more.

>>4614131
>a bread knife
An 8-9" bread knife not long enough to easily cut oval loaves
>8 inch chefs knife
If you're interested in learning proper knife skills you need at least a 9 1/2" chef. There's a reason the "medium" 9 1/2-10 1/2" chef is the workhorse in every pro kitchen rather than the 8" they sell to housewives afraid of cutting themselves
>6 inch chefs knife
Including a worthless baby chef's knife that will end up in the bottom of a drawer isn't a selling point.

>>4614131
>a ferrari

A ferrari would be like a doi or shigefusa. Hand made in tiny quanities, extremely unforgiving, and absurdly expensive.

We're talking about dodge neons vs honda accords here. Except they're knives so even someone on minimum wage can afford the "accord".

>>4614140
Unless you have money to burn, Victorinox should be where you look first for a bread knife. Depending on your needs, the offset serrated deli or the 10 1/2" pastry are the best value out there. I'd still tend to look elsewhere for a chef's knife, but if you're on a ridiculously limited budget you could do a lot worse.

>>4614129
>They can't set themselves up with a chef's knife that'll take as good an edge as easily and has anywhere near as good a profile for multitasking.
And you know this from your comprehensive long-term comparison of all the chef's knives in the market. Riiiiight.

>The Fuji is the best entry level option if you want a French style chef knife
You're talking out your ass man! You have no way to back it up with any data so it's just total BS.

If people would stop giving their opinion as though it's an unquestioned fact there'd be a lot less griefing and needless arguments in this kind of thread.

>>4614145
It's a 10.5" bread knife, not 9". Which is more then enough to cut most loaves. If you're serious about baking bread, of course you can go with a better bread knife, but the average cook doesn't bake bread more then once in a while.

And 8" is more then sufficient for a chefs knife for an average cook. Again, I'm not looking at professional use. I am looking at average cooks, people who are going to cook one or two meals a day.

I'll admit, the 6" isn't as useful, but it's nice to have a back up chef's knife for if you have someone over helping you cook that doesn't take up too much space.

>>4614163
Having spent most of a decade working in pro kitchens and catering I'm pretty sure I'm talking out my ass far less than you when it comes to knives.

>>4614177

It hasn't been made yet as far as I know

>>4610630
Anybody got part 2?

>>4614171
All because you're a home cook doesn't mean you can't learn decent knife skills, and a pro sized knife with a good pattern will help you do that. And if you're not, then you should probably just grab the cheapest thing you can find.

>>4614183
I should ask you this. Have you actually used Victorinox knives?

>>4614183
Also, that was just an example set that I pulled up. They do have a 10" chefs knife if you really want that extra length, that I actually have and it works wonders.

>>4614186
Back up the reply chain in >>4614111 I specifically suggested a Victorinox bread knife, and their bread/pastry/deli knives represent the best value in the market. I'd go elsewhere for a chef unless I was digging quarters out of the couch for my knife budget.

>>4614187
On an extreme budget it's a solid knife. I'd also recommend it over a Wusthof/Dick for somebody genuinely interested in learning proper knife skills, as it uses more of a Henckel hybrid pattern and for the cost holds a decent edge. There's one guy earlier who was more negative earlier, but in our entire conversation chain I've never said Victorinox are shit, just that I'd go elsewhere for a chef knife if I could. The classic Sab pattern is the pinnacle of the multipurpose/chef knife, and there are better options that while more than Victorinox are still fairly cheap.

>>4614195
Ah, I can never tell who is who. We should really get userIDs like /b/.

But yeah, you can definitely go better for a chefs knife then Victorinox, what I am just trying to say is that their chef knife is also pretty acceptable, and is consistently rated better then many knives at twice it's price, so it's a good knife for starting with.

Definitely upgrade if you can go for a knife that is $60 or more, but I find that people are rough on their first personal chef's knife anyways, so I would rather someone dent up a $30 knife then a more expensive one

>>4614177
I haven't made it yet. Sorry. Soon though.

I have a Global G2 and it's a decent knife. I know Global isn't really regarded highly on here, but I can't say anything bad about it.

>>4614210

I'd rather have a global than a dexter russell.

I'd rather have a shun than a global.

I'd rather have a masamoto than either.

this was recommended by a friend

comments?

>>4614210
The Global G2 was my first Japanese knife. I think it gets a lot of undeserved hate.

>>4614217
I agree with all three. It's worth mentioning that each is more expensive then the other. I'd rather have a Hattori KD then a Masamoto.

>>4614227
I've used a similar Sabatier. It's an alright knife. I don't care for full bolsters.

>>4614227
If I got a sab, I'd get one of the NOS nogent sabs.

>>4614235
is there really a practical difference between k-sab and 4*e?

>>4614227
K-Sab or Elephant is the way to go with Sabs, though unless you're doing a lot of heavy work breaking down carcasses you're probably better looking at a gyuto which uses the same pattern but without a bolster and using thinner, harder steel. If you are doing a lot of rough work then go nuts, just be aware that you have to get the right brand of Sab since the Sabatier name predates copyright law and so tonnes of knives from brilliant to terrible all use the name (that and Germany's embrace of stainless steel for mass produced knives are what killed off the Sab in the popular conscious).

>>4614259
i mean besides the balls out swagger of dat elephant

>>4614232
>Hattori KD
Nice knife, but I'd still take a Masamoto KS. And Shun have a terrible profile, but replace it with MAC and I'd agree with >>4614217's list.

>>4614264
Personal taste. They're both exceptional knives if you get a good copy, though at times the quality control of even the best Sabs has been a little iffy and you're best holding the knife you're going to buy before putting down a wad of cash for it.

>>4614262
what would you recommend for a gyuto, then?

i've got my eye on this takeda 240mm, but i know fuck-all about 'em besides what other people have recommended.

>>4614277
I'm probably one of the few who isn't sold on the Takeda. It's one of the most beautiful knives you can buy once it takes its patina, but it's too tall with the tip too low--and as a result handles too much like an overgrown santoku, excelling at push cutting but awkward at times for precision tip and slicing work. They also have a more traditional Sab profile version, but when I tried it I found it was too far in the other direction--to thin and not quite enough knuckle clearance, making it more of a dedicated slicer than multi-purpose.

>>4614217 put Masamoto at the top of his list and for production knives they're hard to beat. I'd look to the Masamoto HC for a slightly more rugged/all purpose knife (ie., you can break down a chicken if you want without worrying), while the KS is a laser and needs to be kept away from any bone work but it's the best pure Sab clone in Japanese steel you can buy--the 240mm is actually 254mm long and is a millimeter perfect clone (profile-wise) of the vintage, top of the line Sabs.

>>4614284
>the 240mm is actually 254mm long
...which is important because that's 10", and the one sold as a 270mm is actually 279mm/11"

>>4614284
it does look like a rather massive santoku, doesn't it?
i suppose for the price point it's something i'm going to need to use in a practical application a few times before committing.

>>4614297
It looks it and it handles like it. Which may be fine for people who are dedicated push cutters, but if you're looking for the unmatched versatility of a classic French knife it gets the profile disastrously wrong. Just looking at it, though, it's a hard knife not to drool over.

>>4614277

I'm suspicious of any kurouchi knives but my only experience is with a tosagata and that may not be the best example.

>>4614284
>tip too low
that could be modified with some effort

>>4614530
>that could be modified with some effort
It'd take a lot of effort to give it a French belly (or rather lack of belly) with a centered tip (or at least more centered), as you'd have to remove metal pretty much all the way back to the heel to avoid ending up with a pronounced belly that would prove a similar hindrance to slicing as a bog standard German profile, and at that point what are you paying $300+ for a knife for if it doesn't suit your needs as shipped? Plus you'd still have the issue of the blade's height being excessive.

Lots of people love the Takeda; personally I found it unwieldy despite its light weight. That it's unusually tall and handles like the biggest santoku you've ever used is something people should keep in mind, though, whether they see that as a selling point or not.

>>4614541
i'm not even sure how i came to the conclusion that >>4614530 was worth posting. it's like i had a spout of logorrhea or something. that is a terrible idea.

>>4614554
It happens to the best of us.

>>4614566
so anyhow, that super-hard jap steel isn't for shitwork or heavy wear, right? too brittle, yeah?
like it isn't the kind of knife you can take to work in an industrial kitchen and beat the shit out of like a dexter or a wusthof and not give a fuck because it's cheap and/or invincible.

like i see the appeal of the thin, hard blade from a functional pov, but as far as practicality if i'm going to shatter the thing the same week i buy it then it really doesn't matter how nicely the first hundred onions sliced now does it?

>>4614591
It's all relative. They're more fragile, but when people talk about them being brittle it's mainly about not using them as can openers or to hack apart blocks of frozen shit (both of which I've seen happen too many times to be shocked by any more and that I've seen lead to broken tips on more than a few German knives). Plenty use them in pro kitchens as long as they aren't breaking down carcasses (and if you are you can always grab a beater for the job at hand), and mostly it comes down to whether you're the sort who values your knives in general--a lot don't, and they're the ones who will have issues if they get hold of one.

Also key is that high carbon is more durable than stainless as a general rule, but then some places high carbon is against health and safety codes (which also rules out the vintage Sabs some love). I've used a Masamoto HC for a few years now. Switching back to a German knife now is like going from a sports car to a super tanker.

>>4614663
>but then some places high carbon is against health and safety codes
now this is interesting. i've never seen such a regulation in any kitchen i've worked in the past 10 years.

>>4614726
I believe it's a new thing

>>4614728
how long before kitchens are too dangerous to work in all together and we're all out on our asses?

>>4614786
In California if it's not free-range organic tree bark, you're going to get arrested for poisoning people.

>>4614173
>Having spent most of a decade working in pro kitchens and catering I'm pretty sure I'm talking out my ass far less than you when it comes to knives.
You like to jump to conclusions, don't you?

For the record, I have about three times more kitchen experience than you. And I'd bet serious money I've used a lot more different knife types than you, since for me they're far more interchangeable than for a lot of people.

Look, I'm not trying to beat up on you dude but it's really very simple, your statement was far too broad and impossible to back up in any meaningful way. You gave your *opinion* nothing more, but you made it sound like a statement of fact, which it's not.

Case in point: ever worked in a Chinese kitchen? In the average Chinese kitchen chances are every one of the chefs won't be using anything with what you consider a "good profile for multitasking", but they'll still have no problems doing all the veg work including fine slicing (paper-thin when required), breaking down chickens, slicing cooked and raw meats. Sometimes with one single knife that you'd consider unwieldy.

>>4614210
>I know Global isn't really regarded highly on here
Well there's a lot of unreasoning shitposting about a lot of things here. Most of it is from people who have their favourites and everything else is shit in their opinion.

There's also the commercial kitchen v. home kitchen thing, which is ignored far too often. Many knives don't make sense for the home chef because they're complete overkill, and equally many of the knives that are ideal for them genuinely won't suit someone who works 10-6 in a busy kitchen and needs their knife to last a decade or more. And this is ignoring aesthetics, which a lot of people will pay over the odds for.

>but I can't say anything bad about it.
Just to be as fair: they're really overpriced. Good steel and all, but they're a bit delicate and I think the handle design is purely for aesthetics, their grip is a bit pants TBH.