/ck/ - Food & Cooking

>Japanese water stone

Why not just get a regular whet stone set and save yourself a LOT of money?
The only reason to buy what you are proposing would be to elevate your status among your peers assuming that they found your purchase to be impressive. Don't be that guy.

You need at least 10000 grit. In fact just sharpen your knives on smooth glass.

>>4493993
Pfffft, thats silly. Why not just use a volcanic glass blade? Obsidian can obtain a sharpness that metal can only dream about.

>>4493996
I'm assuming OP doesn't have the money to travel to an active volcano, construct an obsidian blade then sacrifice a virgin to properly bless it.

>>4494003
I bet he could find a virgin here. In fact, I'm certain of it.
Now we just need an active volcano. Perhaps we can awaken Yellowstone.

Don't worry OP, we got this!

>>4493978
It sounds to me like you're just getting into sharpening. Like others have alluded to, start out with cheaper stuff, unless you really like the idea of blowing money on new stuff until you find out what does and does not work for you. Grit measurements vary from stone to stone, one 6k stone does not always yield the same result as another 6k, particularly with water stones. Part of a water stone function is to create a slurry, or mud. The mud acts as an additional abrasive and lubricant at the same time. The development of the mud is dependent on various factors, like sharpening technique, steel composition, soaking period, and, most of all, stone composition. In general, a 6k stone will yield a decently smooth edge, but not very fine.
>TL:DR There are a lot of other things to consider in a stone than just grit. I suggest experimenting with less expensive options first.

>>4493978
What kinda budget are we looking at here?
Which knives are you trying to sharpen?

why is /ck/ OK with spending good money on nice knives but doesn't believe in good tools for maintaining them. sure you can make a knife sharp with a patch of sidewalk and a belt but nice tools help, a lot.

op, 6000 is too much for a novice. you won't be able to make use of it for a long time. I've been freehand sharpening for years and I'm barely reaching a point where I can consistently take advantage of such fine grits. for you, 2000 will give you something to work towards and you need a coarser one for edge repair. like 800 or so.

>>4494017
I'm monitoring this thrad

>>4493978
>Japanese water stone
It's called a whetstone you fucking weeb

>>4494773

So what would you call him if he referred to a whetstone quarried in arkansas as a "washita stone"? A westaboo? What about a couticle from belgium? A waloonaboo? Or a covenant stone from israel's negev desert? A zinaboo? How about a chinese guanxi stone? A sinaboo?

This may come as a surprise to you, but the world outside mom's basement can be described at various levels of detail. You may wish to explore it further before posting again.

>>4494565
People shitposting here are probably the same ones who shitpost in knife threads, decrying the values of prison shivs. Personally, I think spending money on maintenance is fine, but when still figuring out your technique and what it is you need, high-end materials can be a huge waste, and very discouraging if what you purchase does not suit your needs.

>>4494808

but it's not like a water stone is so very high end. you can get a good setup for under 50 bucks, much less than /ck/ typically recommends people spend on an entry level chef knife. just because some people spend hundreds on their sharpening doesn't make it necessary.

in any case if technique is a concern, why get a bench stone at all. there are some OK jigs these days although you have to pay a lot more to make up for the mechanical assistance.

>>4494828
I don't know about you, but I've never found a cheap japanese stone that I like. There's plenty of really nice ones, but, especially when getting into the 3k+ grits, they are pricey.

>>4494841

I think the king 800 is a nice cheap stone. for a novice it's probably adequate on its own. it dishes fast but by the same token it's quick to flatten.

by the time op is ready for a 3k+ stone (assuming he's even interested) he can figure out for himself what might be worth it.

>>4493993
>2013
>not sharpening your blades on sunlight

>>4494565
I don't own a whetstone, though my knives are good by /ck/ standards. I figure, in order to get a good edge, I have to be good with my whetstone. If I make a mistake, the knife is damaged. There's a guy that shows up at a farmer's market near my home every week; he's a professional sharpener. I'll bring him the knives to make sure it's done right. If I need a quick boost and it's midweek, I'll just use a honing steel.

>>4494875
>2013
>not sharping your blades with a nano laser

>>4494875
>8+2005
>being able to touch the hilt and walk away safely

>>4494864
It is a decent stone, but I hope you don't advocate sharpening on an 800 alone. The edge would be so rough that it'd be dulled with a little light prep. Assuming you're the same as >>4494565
and you are looking at an 800 and 2k, what decent 2k out there is available for under $20, since the king is about $28 most anywhere, plus shipping if online.

>>4495086

yeah same poster. they have an 800/4000 and an 800/6000, both are cheap. I'm not saying they're amazing stones but they're good enough for a lot of people. it sounds like you're saying if you can't afford chocera or a full lineup of jnats, you shouldn't even bother.

Please forgive my ignorance but I am very new to the whole "quality kitchen knife" thing.

How much of a difference does a quality blade make? I've used a wide array of knives for cooking ranging from military KABARs to cheap walmart knives and as long as it was the right size, shape and well sharpened I've never had any problems. Would buying a good set increase the ease of various cooking tasks or is it largely a niche market consisting of the truly dedicated?

I've sharpened knives with nothing but a brick/sandpaper/duct tape that you could shave your face with or split a hair with.

Don't be a fucking retard and buy anything more than a $5 sharpening stone. 97% of knife sharpening is good technique

>>4494003
>sacrifice a virgin to properly bless it

OP could sacrifice himself,, but then he wouldn't have much use for whetstones or knives now would he

>>4495595
This. Prisoners are sharpening shanks to a lethal edge on bricks and mortar. Don't need some expensive-ass special stone for sharpening.

>>4495551

people like nice knives for different reasons. better steel holds an edge better. handle and blade geometry are better on a good knife although the subtler differences between different expensive knives can be pretty subjective. some of the more expensive knives are beautiful to look at, if that counts for anything.

a ka-bar is a really awful kitchen knife. the blade is too thick to slice anything properly, there's no handle clearance, there's that ridiculous blade guard, and the steel is soft as camambert which I guess makes it less likely to shatter when you're hammering it into a branch with a rock. I would say if you've grown accustomed to using stuff like ka-bar or random camping knives for general kitchen use, you should get a real chefs knife and see how that changes your opinion. the difference between a cheap professional-quality kitchen knife and a general purpose outdoors knife will be apparent from simply cutting up an onion once. if you're used to maintaining soft steels (which it appears you are), a victorinox/forschner would be a decent cheap option. "wusthof classic" (quotes because there are a lot of different wusthofs, many of which suck) is also a very good option if you're willing to spend more. something in the 8 to 10 inch range is probably good but it depends on your countertop space. a large hard rubber cutting board from your local restaurant supply store would be good if you have no decent cutting boards. they're the best bang for your buck in my opinion (end grain wood is nice too, if you can afford it).

>>4493993
>>4493996
>>4494003
>>4494017
Thanks for making me laugh guys

Sage because nothing of value to add to this thread

>>4495622
I actually do have a Wusthof somewhere. I thought it was shit though, so I would assume its one of the cheaper models. I have a nice wood large cutting board and a smaller heavy plastic one. I'll have to look into a quality Wusthof. I've been using the KABAR since I got out of the Army primarily because it was easy to put a good edge on it and I know the blade to be durable in rough situation, but the thickness was always an issue, so I starting using a filet knife from my fishing kit. Yeah, I'm kinda hick, I know.

>>4495671
You're welcome.

>>4495619
And they destroy the blades in the process. Good fucking idea.

>>4495674

what did you dislike about the wusthof? the steel, or the overall design?

if you're fond of carbon steel, you could look into something similar to one of these. the japanese ones are going to be hard and therefore the edge will chip instead of rolling. this may take a little getting used to in both usage and sharpening

http://thebestthings.com/knives/sabatier_nogent.htm
http://www.chefknivestogo.com/toshitk24wa.html
http://japanesechefsknife.com/FKHSeries.html#FKH

>>4495708
Actually the handle was broken. I googled and what I have is a Wusthof Classic 20cm Carving Knife. Should I buy another one?
I'd prefer to avoid high carbon, primarily because chipping is a concern.

>>4495720

a carving knife isn't a good all purpose knife. get a chefs knife or gyuto (same shit, different name). 240mm or 270mm if you're metric.

if you're worried about chipping and want something easy to sharpen, the sabatiers linked above should have a similar failure mode to what you're used to.

>>4495733
Easy of sharpening isn't really a concern of mine, I have no problem honing for hours. But, it has been drilled into to me quite thoroughly that having a blade break if far worse than having it go dull.
I need to head to work, thank you very much for your assistance in this matter. Its a rare thing to actually receive help on 4chan.

>>4495749
>Its a rare thing to actually receive help on 4chan.
Nah, just gotta do it when the kids are asleep ;)

>>4495765
; - )

>>4495808
x:p

>>4494783
Nicely put.

>>4493978
My advice is don't believe the marketing and hype (some of which is deserved but not all of it) and do a little more research before you think it necessary to invest in this type of stone.

You don't even need a stone at all these days, if you just need to be able to resharpen a few knives for home use you can simply get yourself a set of diamond hones — the colour-codes ones, coarse, medium and fine will do. I just used a set of those to put a new bevel on an old knife and it now performs better than it ever has in the last 15+ years so trust me, they can do what you need them to at minimal cost.

If you don't already have a steel to maintain the edge in the kitchen get one as well. This is referring to as honing, not actually sharpening, although the distinction is a little arbitrary since it does make the knife sharper soo......

>>4496235
How are you actually suppose to use those steels?
I have one, that has a kinda rough surface, and my grandpa has an old one that has a almost flat surface.
I manage to decently sharp knifes with either of them, but I actually have no idea what I'm doing.

>>4495542
No, I'm not saying that. I would say that there are plenty of American synthetics with pretty much the same qualities as the very cheap Japanese stones that you can get for half the price. Some people don't like the development of mud, and some prefer oil stones, so there's that too.

>>4497318

If you're thinking of Norton, they're Canadian I believe. Besides Norton, who is there?

just use the back of a ceramic brulee cup. That'll put an edge on your blade.

>>4496235
it's not arbitrary at all. Honing realigns the burrs on the edge of the blade. Sharpening removes steel, creates new burs, and puts an entirely new edge on. You can't hone out a chip or dent, nor can you hone a truly dull blade to make it sharp again. Eventually you will run out of burrs.

>>4497321
Arkansas stone
lots of smaller names

>>4497339
oh, sorry, you mean synthetics...
usually the synthetics are found on the tri-hone set-ups, sometimes mixed with arkansas, sometimes not, and I'm not sure of the maker name off the top of my head

I got a diamond grit whetstone set (375, 600 and 1200 grit) because they don't require flattening/don't wear out and just require moistening, plus a strop and grit compound for honing. I've got plenty of cheap paring knives to practice with before I try my 8" knife or ceramic knife.

Was this a good move? I guess I'll find out when I get the stones and see whether or not they're just a stupid gimmick.

>>4497339

Arkansas isn't a brand, and isn't synthetic. Also, for equivalent sized stones, an Arkansas stone isn't any cheaper than a standard size Japanese synthetic.

What other examples did you have in mind?

>>4497349

If we're thinking of the same trihones, they either offer a much smaller surface than the common Japanese benchstone, or are fairly expensive.

>>4497353

I think you did well. Rumor has it those diamond plates are much more aggressive when brand new due to the manufacturing process, but once they break in they're great. Don't use too much pressure because the diamonds will break out of the substrate and it won't increase the effectiveness. Supposedly lubing the surface with soapy water is a good idea.

They make an 8000 grit stone which supposedly cuts as fast as a conventional 4000, but the forum hive mind is strongly divided on these. In particular, people who are highly concerned with feedback find them extremely objectionable.

>>4497360
No, a trihone setup is just a shape, I'm not talking about any specific brand, as brands tend to be expensive. An example of what I'm talking about would be:
http://www.artistsupplysource.com/product.php?productid=46088&utm_source=AR-froogle_Product-Ads&utm_medium=Sculpture_House&utm_campaign=SHI-TRI6&gclid=CKueqfb4pbcCFaU5QgodNwEAXw

>>4497413

Those are 6x1 stones. Typical surface on a stand alone benchstone is 2 to 3 inches wide by 6 to 8 inches long. Maybe I'm just a klutz but I think a big stone is a very nice thing to have. I know there are people who think Arkansas stones (or perhaps natural stones in general) create a nicer, longer lasting edge for various esoteric reasons. But from a basic utility perspective I'm not sure they have any cost advantage (especially if you need expensive diamond plates to flatten them).

>>4497355
see>>4497349

>>4497434
You don't need diamond plates to flatten, and I have yet to see any decent Japanese stones or combo stones where you could get three stones for under $50, as the price point was set earlier.

>>4497452

the deal isn't as good as you think since you're ending up with *smaller stones*.

>>4497452

If I'm allowed to randomly change the form factor as you've done, I could meet the strict $50 limit, but instead I'm going $5 over budget to $54.98 and gotten you a massive increase in surface area while maintaining the original form factor:

250 for severe damage repair 8"x2"
1000 for creating a working edge 8"x2"
4000 for refinement 7.25"x2.38"


http://www.japanwoodworker.com/product.asp?s=JapanWoodworker&pf_id=01.095&dept_id=13117

plus this

http://www.woodcraft.com/product/2021109/24531/king-ice-bear-waterstone-4000-grit.aspx

I'd like to see you beat that with Arkansas stones.

>>4497467
That would be personal preference, and it would still be my recommendation over a Japanese combo stone of similar price, unless you find some sort of clearance deal or something like that.

>>4497483
Personally, I wouldn't recommend a 250 unless really aggressively reshaping, like right after refiling, or something along those lines. Going from that to 1000 is a large jump, too. I don't know much about garden tools, though. Maybe it's ideal for something that gets dinged up as a matter of regular use, and you typically aren't as concerned about eating away a lot of metal every time. I've never used the higher grit king stones, so I don't know much about them. Do they hold up decently well?

>>4496374
>How are you actually suppose to use those steels?
You normally hold the steel upright, and stroke the knife edge-first over the surface of it holding the knife at a fixed angle. Either count strokes on one side and then repeat on the next or alternate strokes one side then the other (the usual method).

It's better to see this that just read a thin description of the process like I've given so check out YouTube, there are numerous vids showing how it's done.

>I have one, that has a kinda rough surface, and my grandpa has an old one that has a almost flat surface.
My antique Sheffield steel is a bit like your grandpa's, many years of use (prior to my ownership) smoothed off the surface quite a bit.

As a rule of thumb, on good steels the knurlings are fine and they rely on the very hard steel they're made from to work. Poorer-quality steels are visibly coarser and generally won't do as good a job, some are so crappy you can only use them of shit-tier knives because any decent knife is harder and will cut into the surface.

>>4497335
>it's not arbitrary at all.
It truly is. Steeling is not merely a honing operation (light steeling is) since it can does actually remove metal - on my steels you can see the filings collected at the tip because they have become magnetised in use. Want to check yours for similar accumulations?

So of course it makes sense that if you're removing some material it can be thought of as a sharpening process. And you can you can take out small nicks with a steel; I've done it, so not just a pet theory. Don't get me wrong I'm not saying it's the preferred way of doing this, just that it's possible.

>>4497514

I'm not really big on steeling, but there's a guy named Roger Miller who deals in reed knives (the musical instrument kind) and his grooved steels are considered particularly good presumably due to the precision and fineness of the grooves compared to your average rat tail file that comes with a department store knife block. You ever checked those out?

>>4497514
I can nitpick what people are saying as well. The slothing off of a burr isn't the same as creating new channels (what I meant by removing steel), and thusly, new burrs. If you know about sharpening, then you're just being a pedant now and a confuser of terms before. If you have found a diamond plate that hasn't gone slick after a month in a heavy use environment, I congratulate you.

>>4497513

I don't know because it's not my setup, I just googled it up as an example of why Japanese benchstones are a better deal than I think you realize.

I understand that the generally accepted ideal progression is to double the grit size (with JIS) or halve the average particle size for each jump. However I've gotten away with 4x progression most of my life and if the typical combi stones are any indication of what the Japanese manufacturers recommend (assuming it's not a conspiracy to sell more stones), you can easily get away with 6x.

The trouble with this discussion is it's annoying enough to compare JIS to ANSI before you get into natural rocks which don't even have a "grit" per se. So aside from the different sizes of the sharpening surfaces, I'm not sure that you can compare the two setups we came up with.

Having said that, I suspect both are perfectly viable and in the end it comes down to what dogma you buy into. Because sharpening debates can get pretty dogmatic.

>>4497545
And I'm not saying you can't get Japanese stones cheap, never have said that. Can you vouch for their qualities as compared to Arkansas, or any number of the generic setups you can find all over the place locally? I can't, and I have used plenty of the former, and I know they work well, which is why I would recommend them over pretty much any other solution I can think of.

>>4497545
>>4497513

Oh, but to answer your question about the high grit king stones, I only have the 4000 and it's a good, long wearing stone. The 800 side is about half of what I started with but the 4000 side is about like new, aside from the bevels I added. It's a muddy, stinky, reactive stone but because it doesn't load anything as badly as the 4k shapton glass. It's much slower cutting than the GS though.

They make "high end" stones too, the G-1 is supposed to be really nice and a good stone for the money.

>>4497553

I can't because I've never used an arkansas stone. I've used other generic stones (some shitty chinatown shit, and some norton oilstones) and I much prefer japanese. I'd like to try some arkansas stones but what I have works for me and I've never seen much reason to spend $120 on a proper sized set of arkansas stones just to satisfy my curiosity.

>>4497554
Then that could be worth looking into. I've only talked with one other person who used a higher grit King stone, and he wasn't very fond of it, though that was a long time ago, and I can't remember if I asked him if it was more personal preference or truly performance related. I do remember him saying he opted to stick with an old stone that he got from a butcher, so thinking on it more, it might have been more of a case of what he was used to than anything else.
>>4497560
Fair enough on that point. If you like what you have, stick with it. I've never used any of the premium Arkansas stuff either, just the cheaper ones when I was a kid, 2 were hand-me-downs.

>>4497541
Not nitpicking. The point I was making to the OP was quite specific and didn't need to be nitpicked in the first place - I said in plain English that a steel was used to maintain an edge and that this was referred to as honing, so it should have been obvious that I'm not confused about what honing is as distinct from conventional definitions of sharpening.

Given the debate we're having it seems appropriate to mention that on both sides of the Atlantic steels seem to be sold almost universally under the name "sharpening steel" :-)

In the spirit of openness, you don't have to congratulate me. My diamond plates have begun to wear down, with only sporadic use. I know someone else with the same set that has seen very much more use and his are virtually bare metal now.

TL;DR not nitpicking, diamond hones wear out

What does a high-grit stone offer over a strop and grit compound?

Not all grit standards are equal. Unless you can get a micron grit number, or number tied to ANSI/FEPA/ISO/JIS/whatever rating, then who knows what an "extra-fine" or "6000" is good for?

>>4498228

if it's Japanese, it's JIS. crazy stuff, I know.

>>4497791
>What does a high-grit stone offer over a strop and grit compound?
A stone is hard and unyielding, whereas a strop has some give so on a microscopic level what it does to the edge is different.

High-grit stones polish the edge while still technically sharpening it, whereas a strop strops or hones the edge (smoothes and aligns particles {read up for more detail, you can even find microscope images of edges on some sites}).