/ck/ - Food & Cooking

>>18973700
What we drank throughout the evening. A party of 5
Sorry for shitty phone camera. Can give details if anyone interested

For me, it's Mosel Riesling.
(not my photo)

Winebros, help me out.

I sometimes buy this spanish wine, a rioja reserva. The bottle my store carries is 2016 I think, and the label says something about "guaranteed at least 3 years in barrel or bottle" which I imagine is mostly the bottle that it's aged in, making this a 6/7 year old wine priced at $12. My question is, does this kind of wine really benefit from aging in the bottle, or is the marketing just trying to blow smoke up my ass?

>>18974163
Riojas have high tannins. The producers actually learned it from Bordeaux producers. That said, to mellow tannins, bottle aging will help. However, Campo Veija is trashy to begin with.

>>18974184
Damn. I don't buy wine often, but for $12 that's usually my go-to when I make high-heat Mexican food

Thoughts on sauvignon blanc? I dont even remember the name of the bottle I had but I thought it was pretty great, something clicked for me and ill be trying more white wines now.

what are the best wines for cooking?
I like wine sauces but I don't drink

>>18974206
perfectly acceptable but holy fuck Sancerre must be suffering from some heat waves because the 2020s and 2021s are fucking DOGSHIT, like straight up jalapeno and quartz

>>18974163
>does this kind of wine really benefit from aging in the bottle
Yes, a little bit. A "Reserva" Rioja is a legal term: a wine that ripened for at least a year in wooden barrels and 2 more years in bottles, or the other way round. Its effects are minimal: the wooden barrel provides tannins and the bottled wine storage reduces them again, giving you a more balanced product.

However: once a wine is bottled, it deteriorates. Storing wine is futile. The only exceptions are the absolute cream of the crop wines. For Rioja you'll have to look at Gran Reserva. Your wine is already past its prime.

>>18973700
had to water the lawn cuz the droughts been so bad so a got some finger lakes wines - did the job would buy again.

I'm more of a beer drinker, but I do like Pinot Noir. I find most other reds give me terrible acid reflux/heartburn. Any recommendations for other reds that don't fuck your insides?

>>18974245
>once a wine is bottled, it deteriorates. Storing wine is futile. The only exceptions are the absolute cream of the crop wines
I don't understand

>>18973700
>What do you think of natural wines?
I enjoy them when it's made to create flavors that are unique and towards a fresher and "wilder" style, but I think 90% of natural wine producers do it solely because its trendy and/or because they're lazy winemakers who bitch about "muh grape purity" instead of realizing that 2000 years of winemaking has proven why certain standards are kept in the modern winemaking industry.
Also some wines should not be made in natty style if the climate they come from can't support it. Like fucking natty Chinon red? No. Fucking stop.

>>18974163
>guaranteed at least 3 years in barrel or bottle" which I imagine is mostly the bottle that it's aged in
For the restrictions around Reserva in Rioja the wine has to have a minimum oak aging period of 1 year/12 months. However, that doesn't mean more time in bottle is a bad thing. Although Campo Rioja is pretty bottom shelf Tempranillo the time in bottle does help it gain complexity and softens the tannins to make the wine drink smoother and show notes of say mushrooms, dried fruit, leather, etc.
Although if you want better value Spanish reds that aren't Campo Viejo I'd recommend looking at examples from Aragon or Navarra like Borsao which use Garnacha for their reds if you want something richer and more fruit driven.

>>18974245
>Storing wine is futile. The only exceptions are the absolute cream of the crop wines.
That's moreso in terms of long term aging (10+ years.) A lot of Rioja, even basic ones, can age up to 5 years before falling off. Just depends on whether the wine has enough acidity and non-green tannin to justify aging.

>>18973700
>natural wines
>let's spend 10,000 years perfecting every stage of wine production to go back to what a fucking neanderthal would have drank

What's the point?

>>18974212
Are they that bad? I felt like the 2021 I had was good

>>18974535
Storing bottles of wine in a cellar or wine cupboard makes them worse, contrary to popular belief. You buy wine, you drink it. Old wine = bad wine. There are actually very few that can handle a bit of ageing or actually get better with age.

>>18975864
You get more personality in your wines, making them reflect their year more and making them more challenging when pairing with food.

>>18975859
And that's exactly why I agree with >>18975853. Rioja is bottom tier. 13$ is far too pricey.

>>18975915
Campo Viejo is yeah, but not all Rioja is "bottom tier." Lots of great producers that make ageable Tempranillo
>Marques de Murrieta
>Lopez di Heredia
>La Rioja Alta
>CVNE (specifically Imperial from Rioja Alavesa)
>Muga
And there are also good value ageable stuff from Coto de Imaz, Faustino, Contino and Baron de Ley that are definitely worth trying now and storing medium to long term.

.

>>18975864
>What's the point?
exactly
it's as if the wine maker's story is more important than the quality and flavor of the wine

I wish I could transition from beer to wine, but I have an issue with liquor and self control
Beer I can at least get full on to the point where I'd get sleepy before I consume too many
Wine is higher abv but goes down so smoothly, I went a period of drinking an entire Bota Box (3 or 4L) a day without any repercussions besides the shakes coming back, same way liquor used to affect me

>>18973700
What are natural wines?

>>18974133
get the loosen grosses gewachs wehlener sonnenuhr its fkn sick this vintage

Trying this tonight from Portugal, my first wine that's mostly Alicante Bouschet. Rapariga de Quinta Reserva 2019.
It's very soft and smooth, no tannins or acid. Seems like it's made for spicy or spiced food which makes it brighter and stronger. By itself it's too mild and bland. I can't say it's bad though, I think it's a good wine, just very mild.

Also I want to post this one because it's a huge steal. Another from Portugal. It's like $8. Really good.
>35% Touriga Nacional, 35% Alicante Bouschet, 15% Baga, 10% Syrah, 5% Tinta Roriz
Portugal is a great source of cool blends.

>>18975915

Why the fuck would you want more a challenging drink?

>>18977602

Almost as if the quality and flavour is absolutely dogshit but they figured if they slap "NATURAL" on the label and come up with some cock and bull story they can sell it for a premium.

>>18978471
Anything Wehlener Sonnenuhr is kino. Prob my favorite vineyard.

>>18978778
Maybe you're an ultra-contrarian who believes wine-food pairings are a meme, and wines should actually be served with some form of salted snacks as palate cleanser, or whatever. I mean, heck, people believe all sorts of stuff.

Is there a better wine tracking site than vivino?

>>18973700
I much do you guys spend on your average bottle that you would drink with dinner alone.

>>18981015
25

richfag here to answer all of your earnest questions

>>18974210
cabernet franc and riesling

>>18974318
go for something juicier and lower acid like grenache

>>18975894
this is an exaggeration, most wines that aren't dirt cheap will develop with short-term aging. Long-term aging is generally reserved for high-quality wines, typically larger bordeaux blends but also high quality pinot noir, chardonnay, riesling, etc. The majority of wines made from nebbiolo, sagratino, aglianico, etc don't even start to enter their drinking window until a few years have passed

>>18980649
cellartracker if you don't mind sorting through individual reviews, there's a lot less 10/10 it tastes like fancy juice

I bought these when I went to France. Thoughts

>>18973700
>What do you think of natural wines?

>be me, working at wine shop
>customer enters
>Anon are there any natural wines here?
>honestly don't know but after some digging we find one
>they decide to open it there, with friends joining shortly after
>a few minutes pass
>Anon...is this wine...spoiled?
>honestly don't know but I give a try just to see what the fuss is about
>sour, stinky, cloudy with a chance of stone fruit
>17.99 plus tip no refunds, sorry
It's a meme

I am apparently very picky about wine and I keep getting bottles that I don't like
I feel like there's no way to know if a wine is going to be drinkable or gross before opening the bottle
*cries*

>>18982691
>cabernet franc and riesling
You forgot Beaujolais-Villages, Pinot Blanc and Barbera.
>>18983854
Why are you reposting this image? Check the last thread for answers (Protip: they're all mid.)
>>18984372
Natty wine is universally garbage below $25. Hence why it's a stupid category unless you occasionally get weird shit that somehow works (like skin contact Gewurtztraminer) and is reasonably priced.

>>18984494
we all start somewhere friend
go do tastings at total wine till you figure it out, the wines they pour are typically easy drinking and it's free

I like wine, but the closest WINE store is like 1.5 hours away from me, so my only choices are grocers.

What's best to get/avoid? What wines can sit for 6+ months without degrading in quality, if they're not high-end ones?

tfw in nyc and selling wine in grocery stores is illegal and all the wine stores are overpriced

>>18986723
Most of the big red wines (big as in high tannins and acid) will last for many years easily, even the $10 bottles. And luckily that includes a lot of the wines you can buy. I wouldn't worry much about the stuff in the store. Especially if it's in the US, where we're talking about strong, dark red/purple new world wines.
imho, just go ahead and buy whatever is on the shelf with confidence.

>>18984494
Buy a newspaper with a wine critic.

>>18987250
What about whites? I have a small stack of wines that I hold to in case anyone wants to show up to my cave, mostly Bordeaux, but I don't know how white wines, especially commercial ones, hold up.

>>18987881
Bordeaux whites are fun crisp, citrusy but usually don't hold in cellar super long with the exception of the better examples from Graves and specifically Pessac-Leognan. There's also sweet whites from Sauternes/Barsac that can hold, and improve, for decades.

>>18984494
Have some cocktails up your sleeve to save a wine you don't like on it's own
Kalimotxo is a great one for red wine. Tall glass of red wine and cola. Nice and fruity

South Africunt here. Just popped a 2019 bottle of pic related; it's fucking amazing. Like, I already know it's a good label, but this is even better than I expected.

>>18973700
>natural wines
I've not encountered this meme yet; mind you, I live pretty far from the Western Cape, our OG wine region.

Does Walmart still have that $3 wine? It's probably over $5 now, but I used it to cook with all the time when I was poor. Many were also nice to drink if you put it in a decanter and stirred it up an hour before dinner.

>>18988107
Still $3 after all these years. Nice.

>>18978778
Often, once you drink a lot of the same type of thing, it becomes less about what's generally considered tasty and more about what is interesting. Within limits of course.

>>18987881
Really depends. Without the tannins to act as a preservative, whites generally age a shorter time, but residual sugar and/or acid help. High quality riesling, white burgundy, white rioja, timorassos in general, high quality chenin blanc, and North Rhone blends all age well- some develop complexity and improve for decades. I've had 25 year old dry vouvray that was incredible. White Hermitage can age for 40 years in good vintages. And of course many high quality sweet wines, protected by both acid and high sugar, can last many decades.

Another notable mention is Jura whites. These are often oxidative in style, and many- notably Vin Jaunes- can age for a VERY long time, upwards of 100 years at times.

Generally structure and acid are key considerations for aging whites, but definitely do some research as like I said they're definitely more vulnerable to aging issues.

been drinking a bottle 5 times a week. i need to lower it

wine hurts my stomach

>>18989871
Red wine used to get me instantly hungover, but I refused to allow the confines of my genes determine my choice of beverage so I no longer suffer that issue. Not sure how, all I know is red wines used to give me headaches and no do not.

>>18989870
5 Bottles a week?

>>18989973
What's that equate to.. 20 ”drinks” a week?

Is that really bad?

>>18989986
Recommended max is 6 for men, so yes, it's more than triple what it should be.

>>18990007
Recommended is really low almost anywhere tho.
Quite a large amount (possibly a majority) of people in their 20s-60s drink over that amount.

>>18990734
Really says something about society doesn't it

>>18991572
Perhaps it says more about our doctors

What the hell is natural Wine? Homemade?

>>18991605
I think it's wine made with wild yeasts or something.

>>18991605
pretty much the equivalent to "craft beer". small vineyard, hand picked fruit, no additives.

>>18991605
>There is no uniform definition of natural wine, it is usually produced without the use of pesticides or herbicides and with few or no additives.
Basically doesn't matter and anyone can just say whatever from what I understand

>>18991686
>>18991662
Sounds like it would be more expensive, possibly nicely made.

>>18991720
Ok, maybe not even worth buying then, since mass produced wine is good (if it's good).

>>18991605
murky pisswater for hipsters. Its the third worst trend in wine industry right after americans and their lackeys oaking everything and le quirky bottle labels

>>18991605
General concept is that it's wine made without the use of added pesticides, herbicides and sulphur dioxide while using only ambient yeast for fermentation over commercial made or cultured yeast.
Sadly its pretty much impossible to predict how far of a fermentation the ambient yeast will pull so you get inconsistent wines a lot of the time that are either slightly skunky or have zero concentration but some winemakers who aren't lazy fucks can usually make a decent bodied wine even with lower ABV, and they'll usually do "minimal sulphur" additions so the grapes don't turn into rotting mush by the time they get to the crusher/destemmer.

>>18991806
The quirky labels have moved over to Wine too?

>>18991867
yep. calling wine bloody pisswater is the cool thing these days. Fortunately wine industry is far too traditinal for it to spread.

>>18991871
Holy shit, yes luckily. Transitional habits are what holds the World together. People just don't know it.

Did anyone here do WSET? I started WSET level 2 and so far it seems pretty easy.

>>18993365
I did diploma, it's a giant fucking pain in the ass but I work a cushy distributor job now
3 is challenging but doable if you have a decent palate and actually study

for me its spanish and portugese reds. cheaper than french yet quite fine

>>18993969
>I did diploma
Nice. It seems to me that the difficulty goes up exponentially, with level 1 and 2 being really easy and then diploma being almost impossible, unless wine is your job. Congrats.

>>18995534
Spanish wine is amazing value. I really like the Marques de Riscal in the lower price category, then the Vina Ardanza which is a bit more expensive but I think still good value compared to similar quality from other countries.
The Vina Tondonia is not really for me, it's ok but I would usually rather buy something else for that price. I was lucky to be served the Vega Sicilia Unico 2006 at a meeting once, it's fantastic wine, but not something I can afford.

>>18993969
I work for a distributor that offers WSET courses for free, should I do it? I'm just a keg delivery guy now.

>>18996525
I'm the guy who is doing WSET2 now and I would say that if you can get it for free I would definitely look into it. The courses can differ a lot, mine is mostly online (I live in a smaller city and this way I can also learn at my own pace), in-person courses usually only take 1 day for WSET1 and 2 days over the weekend for WSET2, you get free wine and snacks, so I don't see any downside if you enjoy the wine.

>>18996546
sweet thanks anon, i like my job (everybody likes the beer guy) but that would give me a nice opportunity to step up a bit.

>>18996558
If you do it, I have only one tip, because I see this all the time in my group: blind tastings are not a part of the exam for WSET1 and 2, but I think they might be the most valuable part for learning about wine. They teach you a certain system, and it's not the only way you can taste or describe wine but I think it's helpful to follow it and use the right terminology etc.
So for example, instead of saying "high acidity", people often say "good acidity" (what does good mean here? For some, high acidity is good, for some medium might be better).

>>18988110
If the price stayed the same then quality got reduced. Something's got to give. There are no exceptions in life.

>>18989871
>>18989952
bottom tier wines have become a lot better over the past 20 years. they still improve. that doesn't help people who suffer from reflux and related ailments though.

Picked up two random wines on sale to cook with this week

red is going into a beef stew, white is going into braised chicken thighs.

I'll drink the remaining ~1/3rd of a bottle that will be left, though considering their sub $20 sale price, I can't imagine they're anything amazing.

>>18993365
Level 2 is pisseasy baseline knowledge
I'm doing Level 3 right now and it's essentially an entry level outlook on vineyard management, winemaker methods and impacts of both on different wines. It's a nice step up but not overtly difficult especially if you're decently versed on most regions especially Old World.

im a beginner to wine
looking for a very rich red wine that has a lot of tannins. i want that pungent punch in my mouth with a lot of deep pretty complex flavour... for under 20$/€

>>18996723
>sub $20 pinot noir
I don't feel so good...

>>18997559
Chianti classico, Montepulciano d'abruzzo for Italian

>>18998090
Nigga im braising beef with it, what do you want a $40+ bottle?

For a nice dinner wine? Sure. But not when 2/3rds of the bottle are going into the pot with the beef.


If you're spending more than ~$25/bottle for cooking wine, you're a moron. You don't need to get the cheapest shit at like $5-10/bottle, but there isn't much point spending real money on it either.

>>18997559
Look for wines from less known varietals or regions. A lot of Portuguese douro/dao valley blends are quite rich and complex, as well as Spanish montrasell (mourvedre) and GSM blends from the Languedoc, notably Minervois. You could go for a Valpolicella Ripasso, or

I'd also suggest less-known nebbiolo regions in Piedmont- they're lighter, but very tannic and potentially very complex, and in regions like roero and gattinara you can get some stellar value. If that flavor profile interests you I'd also suggest Jura reds- particularly Arbois. These are typically a blend of trousseau and poulsard, and like most wines from Jura can develop with age for a LONG time. Many producers have cellar releases that come out with 10, 20 or even 30 years of age already on them.

>>18998122
Should say:
You could go for a Valpolicella Ripasso, or montepulciano or nero d'avola (salice salentino is a solid, affordable region).

Gonna crack open one of these this weekend.
Excited.

>>18978657
what did that set you back?

>>18987998
>South Africunt here.
hang in there bro

>>18973700
>>18973700
I hate it when they turn out to be too sweet. they should be dry, beyond that i don't really taste any notes of anything, I know labels tell you they have notes of things but my palette cant make out the difference, and they all smell like wine to me.

>>18973700
dark purple 100% grape juice with no added sugar will always beat all wines 100% of the time. Alcohol is just nasty and causes health problems. The best part of the wine is the purple red blue stuff about it and the sweet flavor and smell. Worse part is the dry burning alcohol crap. Everyone has been lying to themselves and each other about this for thousands of years.

>>18998122
>Minervois
what do you think of this?

>>18997559
Alicante Bouchet, Tannat, Sagratino
You might have to look at a specialty shop though, they're relatively uncommon at most retail stores

>>18998134
hope it's not the 2017, that shit's garbage. You can taste the smoke from the burning vineyards

>>18978657
Ah yes I once tried a special wine, I believe it was the le alelooloolemao boosch le schmoosch burqounte badaboom BIG BADABOOM multipass delucz rarepoongA bazmati ULTRA reserve ala 1594

but seriously, what makes a good wine?

Moved to Adelaide recently, any recs on wineries to visit? Already done a bit of the Barossa and McClaren Vale but looking to branch out.

>>18974210
Whatever you can get that's cheap.
If you're spending more than a few dollars on cooking wine you're throwing money away. None of the complexities of the wine will show up as a flavour.

>>18987998
>try to get pinotage anywhere in Australia
>nobody sells it except a few bottles of Kanonkop at Dans or at outrageous prices on speciality online stores
damn that Bowwood do be ripping tho

I picked some random BOGO wine up called Papi and it was surprisingly good. I liked the sauvignon blanc but could leave the pinot grigio. I drank almost a whole bottle and usually drinking that much cheap wine would make me feel kinda cruddy the next day but not this one. Anyone got any recommendations for me based off this?

>>18998287
A good wine is a wine that you like to drink. I don't think there are any 100% objective standards. Taste and smell quite literally only exist in your brain. There are, however, some things that are enjoyed by more people than others.
I like wines that are balanced and some of my favourite wines right now are Rieslings from the Pfalz region in Germany. It's a pretty warm region by German standards and the wines smell of ripe, tropical fruits like pineapples, mangos and ripe peaches. But then when you drink the wine, it's pretty light and high in acidity, so overall they aren't heavy.

>>18998258
Its a 2018.

>>18978678
I've yet to try a bad Portuguese red with Touriga nacional, and they're so cheap compared to vines of similar quality from elsewhere. Absolutely fantastic value for money at least here in Europe.

.

bump

Why does wine taste better the more depressed I am?

>>19002493
It's the opposite for me, spirits taste better when down, wine (or champagne) tastes better when I'm up.

>oh look one of my favorite burgundy bang-for-bucks is back in stock
>oh look it's 30 dollars more expensive than last year
when will it end bros

>>18973700
Any gaúchos here? You have much to answer for

>>19002729
just make more money?

>>18973700
I think if you're going for fun and natural, maybe try making your own OP. There was an Italian brand I really liked called "Farmers of Wine" that used no modern equipment/processing. Pretty good. I just spoil myself with Bordeauxs, personally. This is my current favorite. A powerhouse of flavod with the smoothest finish. Its difficult to not chug it. Its delicious.

>>18997559
This

>spend $25 on meh cabs at PCC or Safeway
>Trader Joe's has better Rioja and Grenache for $8

Imagine a prisoner holding the key to his own cell for years...

>>19002729
Consider not being poor

bump

>>18998094
>>18998128
>Chianti classico
Brolio, Villa Puccini, Rocca Guicciarda, Cafaggio or Istine? ~8-16$/€ in that order
>Montepulciano d'Abruzzo
Umani Ronchi, il Conte, Cantina Zaccagnini, Lupi Reali or Coste di moro? ~7-12$/€ in that order
>Valpolicella Ripasso
Fortellino, Castelmondo, Marastoni, Castelmare, Bevanti, ai Colli, Antiche Terre Venete, Ville di Antané, Casteloro, Mezzo Monte, Zecci, or Brigaldara? ~9-14$/€ in that order
>>18998258
>alicante bouschet
Vidigal Torres Vedras 2020 is available ~11$/€
>tannat
Domaine Laougué Les Passionnés 2019 and Château Bouscassé 2018 is available. ~12-17$/€
>sagrantino
Antonelli Montefalco Rosso 2017 and Tenuta Bellafonte Collenottolo 2014 is available but limited. ~18-31$/€
>>19004296
not available

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3oC-eSXQWXo

>>18973700
>Go to store
>Buy cheapest white wine/chardonnay
>Enjoy
I like wine because it's a good middle ground for getting tipsy, don't have to drink as much as with beer, not as strong as liquors and spirits
Sorry if I'm not as refined and sophisticated as others here

>>18977823
It's supposed to be minimally processed with no additional intrants to the vintage. Indigenous yeasts, no SO2, no chemical fertilizers or pesticides in the vineyard, etc. It's a bit like organic craft beer vs international breweries: unstandardized. Can range from funky bad to excellent, with huge diversity in tasting notes. If volatile acidity and acidity are low enough, tannins balanced and there's no yeast taste, then whoever is making it knows his business and I'll drink that over any industrial wine.

For me its a REIGNAC
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1leRdKluE7I
The merchant hates this trick.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q2yFABr_LqY

dead

Reminder that Barefoot has OVER 150 awards.
150!
It must be good if they have that many awards.

bump one last time

>>18973700
Hi lads, sorry for not bringing much to the conversation, but would one of you be so kind and recommend me a bottle of something that's red, sour and about 50-70$? I'm not drinking alcohol myself but wanted to make it a wedding gift.

>>19012812
Get them a good red burgundy, a lot of premier crus can still be had for $50-70

>>19008895
Any Bordeaux Superier that claims they rated in "blind tasting" above multiple exceptional producers from Graves and Margaux are liars and swindlers.

>>19007163
bump for answer

>>18998621
This. And for me its a Regent (Pfalz) or a Weissherbst Rosé (Rheingau).

T. Worked 10 years in a small Wine Bar in Frankfurt

>>19014449
Truth. Supermarket tier Bordeaux are overrated and overpriced.

>>19012812
Depends what they like to eat. Find a good wine store near you and talk to the staff. Most wine stores are specialized in only a few regions and even then have only a handful of top wines/producers for special occasions available because those don't sell often enough. Don't buy something like this online but do have a look around. >>19014319 is correct but (I feel) overpriced. You'll get better price/quality in Slovenia, Trento (Foradori) or South Tirol (Terlan, Nals Margreid) - if you can find these.