/ck/ - Food & Cooking

Choil shot. He doesn't polish his choils. I might tho.

>>18706276
thinking about getting a chinese chef knife but it's hard to find good looking ones made in japan. the selection is so small compared to japanese knives

Dashi started.

>>18706300
I have no experience with chinese cleavers.

Okay, I got my soffrito chopped. The knife is really excellent. Very ridgid, but slices woth very little resistance. The distal taper makes the last quarter of the blade extra sharp and precise feeling.

I misplace my shig gyuto, so I can't do a direct comparison sadly. I will say that the food release is a lot better on the shig.

Why don't you get a blog?

Dashi is completed. I shaved my bonito flakes and they will steep for like 30 minutes. The soffrito is getting cooked down a lot for all that good caramelized flavor.

>>18706486
:(

I worked at a restaurant that was entirely chinese employed except me. The two cooks had two great knives, never saw them sharpening or honing them, and they'd wash them in the regular dishwasher. They were heavy with white handles and tore through everything I wanted it to.
I can buy similar shape knives but they go dull very quickly and I'd rather have a crappy knife than a ruined completely knife, I've never bothered with using a sharpening gimmick or my honing rod

what a coincidence. i just got this magnetic rack and installed it today and already had this picture
just got the yu kurosaki bunka about a week ago too, it is an absolute delight for chopping veg
that's a nice looking gyuto anon, what else do you have?

>>18706613
Here's some of them. I owe you a big one. I lost that shigefusa gyuto because I thought it was in the blue box like I always keep it, but when I was pulling out these knives to show you I noticed it at the bottom of my drawer! Thank you.

The danish weeb had a really good black friday sale, so I got some knives less expensive knives to play around with.

OKAY! Now that I found my shig gyuto I can actually make some meaningful comparisons.

The kato gyuto feels the sharpest out of the 4 gyutos I tested cutting celery. The shig felt the second sharpest. I would say it's about a 9.5 to 9 is the difference. The less expensive gyutos are at about 8 and 8.5.

Here's where my soffrito is. Adding tomato paste and garlic to this. Then I deglaze with red wine, reduce red wine, add fresh herbs, add dashi and reduce that down.

Night-time Rosemary run with the good boy.

Here's the sauce after I reduced the red wine, and added about 3 cups of dashi, rosemary, thyme, and bayleaf. It tastes phenomenal already, and will only get better as I reduce it and thicken it with powdered beef gelatine.

Who makes a decent Chinese cleaver or nakiri?
Tldr I used to get the dog shit cheap ones they have at Asian markets but I've moved and can't find them locally. Ordered one online but it's too thicc to actually work as a vegetable cleaner
Who makes nice correctly thin ones that won't break the bank?

>>18706890
You want a cai dao style cleaver if you're going chinese.

The danish weeb sells some nice and affordable nakiris.

Strained and bloomed gelatine + dashi added. Continuing to reduce down.

I was gonna treat myself to a Grohmann forged 8" chef, and forged 4" pairing today(for $200cad total), but the guy who sells them locally in my city sold out....
I'll continue to use my henckels...

This sauce I spent hours on is for a cross rib roast I have cooking at 133 degrees for probably around 35 hours. The salty pan juices mixed with my completely unseasoned sauce makes something absolutely beautiful. Pics tommorow if the thread lives on. Occasion is my mom's bday dinner.

>>18707234
Get on the waiting list, or visit his shop with carrot in hand to see how his blades treat you.

Introduced in a Japanese TV program.
I heard that their steak knives are famous.
I don't cook, so I don't buy one.

https://ryusen-hamono.com/en/

>>18706702
woah nice, glad i could help
>>18706793
excellent pic, i miss having a dog. i always find myself running out late at night to pick herbs
>>18706890
i am interested in both cai dao and nakiri, i bid on a nakiri on ebay but didn't win
i have a terrible kiwi cleaver looking thing, the handle is awful and the blade is an awkward shape. the back of it makes a really good meat tenderiser though, i used it for tonkatsu today
>>18707234
>bolster
:(
since starting to use bolsterless knives i never want to go back
>>18707584
i don't like damascus or german style handles much either so these aren't for me i guess
the folding steak knife on their website looks kind of cool, though i can't imagine myself bringing my own steak knife somewhere.
but then i did bring my opinel no. 8 to a party today because i didn't trust my friend's cheese knives to be any good

>>18707359
The bolster fitment on that cleaver is cringe.

>>18707234
>henckels
Some of the mid range henckels are really good vale for the money especially if you get them used. Some of the really expensive German knives feel kind of silly because some manufactures will still only harden them to 55-56 rockwell like the cheap ones. The fit, finish, and QC will be better but for a "professional" German style kitchen knife something like 58 rockwell seems more appropriate to me. I think they only make them so soft so that they are easy to sharpen using honing steels.

>>18710457
Well I have sometimes been tempted to use a hatchet on hard shelled winter squash.

>>18710457
Not enough folds.

>>18710022
They make them soft so tardslingers don't chipout their knives and return it.

>>18710938
58 HRC is not even that delicate with decent steel, it is what Wüsthof uses on their classic line and they don't use any special extra tough steel. They don't have a reputation for being chippy like some Japanese knives. The only reasons I can see to go with 55-56 HRC on a cheif knife is to make it easy to be able to sharpen it easily with metal honing rods that some people insist on using exclusively or perhaps to save some cost on heat treatment.

>>18706890
CCK or shibazi
CCK is thinner, but SBZ is cheaper and sturdier

Buy a Buck and quit giving a fuck.
>>18707234
Based Canadian Knife Enjoyer

>>18706300
Shibazi, CCK, Dengjia
Generally good.
You'll be able to find them in Japan, but chances are they'll be overpriced for what you're getting because they're novelties over there.

>>18711241
I really like the look of buck knifes but I wish they were not so limited on their steel types and that they had thicker tangs.

>>18712886
You can buy s30v Bucks now. Why do you want a thicker tang?

All of my knives are old junk made of horrible metal and have plastic handles and I really need a new one, but I can't spend a shitton of money cuz' poor and I need to pay rent.
Sell me a $20 dollar knife, /ck/

>>18713297
Buy pick related and a knife sharpener. Easy

>>18713297
Victoinox is used by many cooks in the industry

>>18713741
They're indestructible and reasonable value, but I really don't like them. They're soulless knives.

>>18714415
So buy a buck 120

How hard is properly sharpening your own knives? I'm afraid I'll destroy my knives.

>>18714751
Easy.
You'll fuck it up the first time, but just spending more time at it will fix any issues.
Watching videos will help, but you have to learn by hand.
400x1000 whetstone, some kind of holder (preferably a sink bridge), and a honing rod.
Does wonders even with the worst knives around.

>>18714632
I'm happy with my kato and shigs.

Bought pic related. It's a beaut and heavy as fuck but it just feels nice in the hand.
But now I realize how fucking retarded I am for paying so goddamn much. At the very least I can keep it around for forever.
Picrel is ZenSanHuan cai dao.

>>18715304
how much was it and why do you feel retarded if it's good?

>>18716116
$260
It's just a little unwieldy compared to a cheap ass Linorso cleaver and didn't come quite as razor sharp. For it's weight it isn't a bone chopper either. It's really pretty and maybe I can hone the edge but as an out of the box I feel like maybe I should have gone with a Dexter Russel instead? I will say that for how wide the blade is it makes it very easy to scoop cut ingredients on the side.

>>18716136
>>18715304
I know how practical a chinese cleaver is, but almost all of their construction/ fit and finish annoys me. Fake, super ugly bolster and peened/folded partial tang.

You paid a lot for what that knife is. The shigefusa kurouchi santoku is only around 450 bucks, and the gyutos are 800-1000. Both world class knives.

>>18716136
$260 was way too much for a Chinese cleaver like that.
Unless its using some kind of supersteel you got snookered, bro.

>>18706613
what knife is on the far left?

>>18716261
You make it sound like those are somehow better value. With most of those super expensive you are paying a huge premium for the fact that it is hand made traditionally and not for the functional qualities of the knife itself. Though they are going to nice knives as well. I still am not sold on using non-stainless steels on a kitchen knives expect perhaps on decorative pieces. Some people seem to have the misconception that stainless automatically equals soft which is not true at all.

>>18714415
granted
but have you heard the saying "beggers can't be choosers"?

Are Tojiro knives still the Japanese value king?

>>18717970
Compared to that cleaver they are much better value. You're paying for very limited work from master knifemakers. If you asked me if I would pay 250 for a knife worth 50 dollar, or 1000 for a knife worth 1000 dollars I would go for the latter.

>functionality
What I've found with kato and shig knives(regarded as some of the world's best kitchen knife producers) is that they are always that 5-10% better than the knives of the similar style in most ways. Kato for sheer sharpness and unique highly technical blade geometry, and shigefusa for superb food release and excellent blade geometry(immaculate s-grind).

Traditional HT with carbon steels can actually be better than using more technical methods like a ln electric kiln.

>carbon steel
They're super easy to maintain, and I have some really nice beater carbon steels that I don't mind getting tarnished and mildly rusted. It takes me 1 minute with a rust eraser to remove rust, and maybe 5-20 to polish depending on how much work I want. Just keep food off them and clean/dry them when you're done.

The main argument for affordable knives is that cheap carbon steel can be superbly high performing, while cheap stainless SUCKS.

Quality, high hardness stainless is also a massive pain in the ass to sharpen.

>>18718059
Yes.

>>18718095
>5-10% better
>way more expensive
sounds like questionable value to me.

>shigefusa for superb food release and excellent blade geometry(immaculate s-grind).
The choil shots of the Shigefusa kurouchi santoku you mentioned that I found look like it just has some gentle convexing. Nice but hardly revolutionary.

>Traditional HT with carbon steels can actually be better than using more technical methods like a ln electric kiln.
proof?

>They're super easy to maintain
Still less so than stainless.

>The main argument for affordable knives is that cheap carbon steel can be superbly high performing, while cheap stainless SUCKS.
Probably true if we are talking sub $20 knives but much less so when you move up the price bracket to $100+ knives.

>Quality, high hardness stainless is also a massive pain in the ass to sharpen.
Diamond plates and hard synthetic Japanese finishing stones are cheap and readily available these days. Is it really that bad?

>>18718271
>value
If you keep those knives nice I am almost 100% positive they will actually become more expensive as time goes on. Value does not directly equate to only functionality. If you're just looking to get something for the sole purpose of a tool that cuts buy the cheapest possible knife you can find and throw it away when it gets dull, or use a $5 pull through sharpener.

>shig santoku
Even their kurouchi knives have an s grind. S grind is time consuming and adds functionality most other knives don't have. Have you compared the geometry against other knives first hand like I have? I know this means little on the internet, but still.

Charcoal and water quenched paper steels get harder on average than oil quenching. When you start to understand how carbon steel hardens and ways to manipulate that process you understand there is a lot of fine tuning and experience required for the best performance.(I make knives semi professionally, it's partly why I bought all these super high end knives) I may able able to find you an article that discusses an american knifemaker, ed fowler, who refined a carbon steel to such a point the metallurgist he was working with said it was physically impossible.

You can look at my argument in the sense that handmade knives produced by a master will have significantly higher HT standards than anything mass produced.

I tested a victorinox and the blade came warped, the edge came super sharp, but basically rolled over on me, dulled out quickly, and had a really poorly ground edge that I had to spend extra time fixing just so I could easily sharpen it again.

>maintenance and sharpening
$100 dollar stainless is still going to be using, subpar imo, 50crmov type steels. Real quality stainless is very expensive and in my experience a waste for most at home cooks.

Yes it still is a massive pain in the ass to sharpen. The higher carbide content makes things slower, but also burr formation and removal take finesse on good stainless.

Redpill me on cleavers

>>18718271
Here is an excerpt: use a bit to find it in the magazine in link if you're interested. Really good reading if you like knives.

Grain Structure

In order to determine the nature of the steel from a metallur-
gist's view, a test blade was sent to Metallo graphic Labora-
tory Services (MLS) for photographic analysis.

Sam DiGiallonardo, owner of MLS, stated that the sam-
ple had the finest grain structure in the cutting edge of any
steel he had ever examined. He also stated that there was no
retained austenite in the matrix that consisted of spheroidized
iron and chrome carbides, tempered martensite and lower
bainite. The carbide size was between one half and one mi-
cron. This is as fine as it gets (one micron is one one-thou-
sandth of a millimeter). For comparison, carbides in D2 steel
are 10 to 15 microns and CPM 440- V carbides are two to four
microns in fully heat-treated blades.

https://archive.org/stream/Knife_Talk_1_Ed_Fowler_the_Art_Science_of_Knife_Making/Knife_Talk_1_Ed_Fowler_the_Art__Science_of_Knife_Making_djvu.txt

>>18718337
Bone cleavers?
Cheap and heavy
Veggie cleavers?
Thin and light. Cheap.
Mixed use?
Thicker in the back, thin at the front. Cheap.

Don't pay a lot for any cleaver.
The Chinese don't and they use cleavers for everything.

>>18718328
thanks for the reply

>they will actually become more expensive as time goes on.
And so will money in an investment portfolio. I feel like people use this as an excuse for things they never intend to sell in the first place.

>Value does not directly equate to only functionality.
Yeah but that is mostly what I look for. Not just for knives but I tend to try to avoid paying a premium for "collectibles" unless I personally really like something.

>Even their kurouchi knives have an s grind.
I only mentioned it because the couple pictures I found did not look like an s grind.

>I tested a victorinox
Which is cheap knife made to soft end of typical German knives. I think they are only 55-56 hardness.

>Real quality stainless is very expensive
It is really not that bad. Decently hard stuff like VG-10 is pretty cheap and even snazzy new stuff like CPM MagnaCut is not crazy if you buy it in quantity and are factoring it into the price of a $300+ knife. The work that goes into making the blade and the fitting are typically worth far more than the steel.

>Yes it still is a massive pain in the ass to sharpen.
Well I am just getting into sharpening and I got a new (non chief) S35VN knife to work on so I will se how it goes.

>>18718444
Thanks for not being obnoxious.

This dude looks ridiculous, but his video is pretty good on the shig santoku, and their production methods if you're curious. Please note that the gyuto is in a league above his kurouchi knives, but also over twice as expensive.

https://youtu.be/fDWUNbuGues

In the end value is subjective, and sometimes dramatically overpaying for something has value to the right person.

As for stainless price when you start getting close to "supersteel" territory everything involved with the steel gets more expensive including the raw stock. Maybe like s90v, M2, cpm cruwear and other high, ultrahard, carbide tool steels kind of stuff. The HT is much more time consuming and energy hungry. The grinding can take 3-4x as long and eat through expensive consumables like grinding belts alarmingly quickly. It sucks to work with, especially if you're hand sanding. I made a 70hrc test chef knife out of zmax. Horrific experience. Never again unless I'm getting a lot of money for it.

>sharpening
Good luck with it. If you're just getting into sharpening a cheap carbon steel beater knife may be worth getting just to see and feel the difference. Victorinox sharpen pretty easy, but still not as nice as a simple carbon steel blade.

>>18715304
>>18716261
>>18716136

That's not a real chinese cleaver, that's at most a chinese style cleaver; you'd never see a real chinese chief use something like that.

This is the sort of shit you'd actually see in a chinese kitchen, full stainless steel, dents in the spine, and abused the shit out of, and shouldn't cost more than $15.

>>18718599
Thanks again

>sometimes dramatically overpaying for something has value to the right person.
I know, I can appreciate the artisanship, I am just a cranky cheapskate at the moment.

>I made a 70hrc test chef knife out of zmax. Horrific experience. Never again unless I'm getting a lot of money for it.
How well does it work? sounds neat but I would worry about it being chip prone. I would love to make my own knives someday though the equipment necessary to heat treat properly is pricey so it probably wont happen.

>sharpening
my plan is to use 1200 grit diamond stone followed by a 6000 grit king stone and finally a strop with green rouge. I also am getting a 300 grit diamond stone for repairs/reprofiling and flattening my whetstone. That sound like a decent beginner setup to you?

>Victorinox
Luckily I picked on up at a thrift store. I also have a few other decent but not fancy X50CrMoV15 or similar steel German style knives. I will keep an eye out for a cheap carbon steel on but I doubt I will be able to find one at my local thrift store.
As a final question to you or anyone else here. I am looking for a good budget short (120mm or so) petty knife with a symmetrical grind and decent harnesses stainless steel but not overly brittle. Anyone have suggestions? I was looking at the Tojiro DP Petty 120mm which seems good but wanted to know if there is any better buys.

>>18718328
>S grind is time consuming and adds functionality most other knives don't have.
could you infodump about this a bit homie?

>>18718731
Its just to help with food release.
Theoretically gives the blade profile less surface area for food to stick to.

>>18718662
>This is the sort of shit you'd actually see in a chinese kitchen, full stainless steel
they use other handles as well.
http://www.chanchikee.com/Chinese%20Knives.html
http://www.shibazi.com/product/?pid=13&classid=16
http://www.cqdjd.com/index.php/home/goods/index

>>18718731
https://www.tophamknifeco.com/s-grinds-are-they-worth-it/
TLDR it helps prevent food from sticking to the knife.

>>18718714
>I am looking for a good budget short (120mm or so) petty knife with a symmetrical grind and decent hardness stainless steel but not overly brittle. Anyone have suggestions? I was looking at the Tojiro DP Petty 120mm which seems good but wanted to know if there is any better buys.
bump

>>18706702
that picture looks expensive.

>>18718714

>zmax
It sucks. Way too brittle to have a thin enough edge, or I just need to say eff it and grind it down more.

>sharpening
I would reccomend getting something like a shapton 1k or 1.5k ceramic. Diamond plates are really fast, but they have horrible feedback and nake sharpening less enjoyable. Otherwise you'll be fine with that. Might even be a bit overkill.

>>18720961
Yes.

>>18721019
>It sucks.
That's disappointing. What compelled you to make it? Just as an experiment?

>I would reccomend getting something like a shapton 1k or 1.5k ceramic.
Ok thanks, I will consider picking up a medium grit whetstone in the future.

>>18721144
Yeah just a test blade for fun. When you try sanding it it feels like glass even with lower grits. Incredibly slow even on a belt grinder. It took me hours to get it shaving sharp after putting the primary bevel on. It really helped solidify my opinion that simple carbon steels are all most people need for kitchen knives.

>>18721218
>zmax knife
Well at least it sounds like it ended up ok. Are you going to try to forge yourself your own carbon steel knife? I am not sure how easy it is to get the premium grades of Japanese carbon steel outside of Japan though.

>>18721019
>shapton 1k or 1.5k ceramic.
Think the Shapton Kuromaku 1500 or Shapton GlassStone HR 1000 would be better for me? They are both priced similarly.

>>18721303
I've been doing that. Got a forge press so I've been learning how to do pattern welding. I'm taking a small step back from it to perfect my blades performance because making patterns like that takes an incredible amount of time, so I need the blades to be super high performance before I feel okay selling something like that. The steels I used are 1095 and 15n20. Both simple carbon steels.

>stones
I prefer the kuromaku over the glass stones. Both pretty good, but you get a lot more stone with the kuromaku.

>>18721303
There's a steel called 26c3 that is very very similar to white #1, consistently hardens to 65hrc woth relatively high toughness and is a very high quality steel. W2 and 1095 are also close enough to paper steels it doesn't matter too too much.

>knife thread
>it's just cultureless mutts arguing about their authentic chinkshit again
I bought a quality sharpener and appropriated a butter knife i stole into an all purpose blade. All of you can fucking blow me.

>>18721436
5 star post. thank you.

>>18721512
>>18721436
+1

I've never met a knifefag who had any actual skills

>>18721356
>Got a forge press
Your knife workshop tools have to have cost a lot. Were talking $5000+ for your setup right?

>pattern welding
Very pretty, good job anon.

>I prefer the kuromaku over the glass stones.
Thanks, that was the one I was leaning towards anyways.

>>18721555
The press was like 7k alone. Probably around 15k in it all together. I have an electric kiln as well, horizontal band saw, tempering oven, 250lb anvil, big-ish propane forge, belt and disc grinder.

If you went really inexpensive and rudimentary you could probably get started with somewhere around 1-3k, but that's hand forged, and no powered abrasives, or a cheap grinder, small anvil, and a homemade forge.

>>18721436
I did that.
Couldn't find any good steak knives online that weren't serrated or overpriced or a combination of the two, so just knicked some nice butter knives from a hotel and sharpened them.

>>18717093
it's a hitohira futana sb kuro 210mm gyuto
aogami super with stainless cladding. that and the petty (same stuff but 150mm petty) are my first "good" knives

>>18722108
Making steak knives out of butter knives is sorta based. Pretending a sharpened butter knife is all you need for cooking is literal hyper cope.

Bump.

>>18714904
any specific videos?
I shave with a straight razor and every time I have to whetstone it I fuck up my shave for a couple shaves afterwards. figured you niggas can point me in the right direction for sharpening.
can go into more detail if needed

>>18725122
Honing Straight razors is a whole different subject matter completely. There's a lot of stuff that goes into getting them good.

Set up? Are you keeping your stones perfectly flat?

>>18725166
I thought there may be some similarity, and the only other place I would possibly find sharpening tips is maybe a shaving thread on /fa/, if they even have those. /fa/ is insufferable anyway.
I do my best with keeping it flat. guess I haven't gotten a level out to 100% check.
have a 4000/8000 ceramic whetstone, I soak the 4k side for a few minutes in water prior to use and just add water on top the 8k. 8 passes on each grit, blade leading, then strop. the stone is wide enough to accommodate the whole length of my razor, so I guess I don't need to pull it to make sure the whole length gets sharpened. I keep the blade flat, cause I've been told the back of the razor is thick enough that it gives you the right angle to sharpen.
figure I just need to go back for a few more passes on the 8000 side and then strop for a while.
I appreciate any input. most shaving resources just tell me to send it in somewhere.

>>18725191
You're in luck because aside from knives I taught myself how to hone straights using Japanese naturals, which is the best(imo) and most difficult method.

First thing you must get a precision straight edge to check for flatness. It's critically important. It's the no.1 most important thing for honing.

Second if ultimate sharpness is your problem you may need to set your bevel. 1.5k is reccomended for this. You can use a lot of pressure as long as you aren't flexing the razor. You basically create a burr and reset the grit and flatness of your edge. A jewelers loupe or magnification makes knowing when you're there much easier.

All the rest sounds about right. Medium pressure with 4k, light pressure with 8k. I would do more 4k passes than 8k.

Last thing is many people don't think 8k is high enough, so consider going to 16k. Your honing compound may be enough to get you there, but it's better to use a flat stone.

After honing you want to do 50-75 laps on your strop. I like to do 25 on canvas, 30 on leather 15 on canvas then 20-30 more on leather.

>>18725191
Check out this awesome american razor I recently purchased. I love near wedges, and this thing is beefy. Once winter starts wrapping up I will be honing this dude and shaving off my big ass beard with it.

>>18725191
https://scienceofsharp.com/
All the sharpening 'tism you could want.

>>18725238
I knew this place would pull through for me. I appreciate it. buying the whetstone I have was like pulling teeth but I'll get more if it means I don't have to send it in for sharpening. I take extra time stropping after a sharpen but it didn't occur to me to try going back and forth between the leather and canvas.
>>18725306
will digest, thank you.
>>18725247
looks incredible. I'd be jealous if I had the confidence to get a razor like that; it's evident I'm still feeling things out here.

thanks for all the help lads.

>>18725317
Shapton 1.5k kuromaku is a superb bevel setter.

Search on amazon for precision straight edge. Aluminum will be fine. I have a nice steel one that's flat to within like .001 of an inch. Tiny bit overkill, but high level straight razor honing is superbly autistic.

>>18725238
>A jewelers loupe
what is your preferred magnification 10x, 12x, 15x or 20x?

>>18725373
I use a metallurgy scope with 50x and 200x. I'd say 15-20x is good enough.

The secret to using a loupe when you're honing a razor is to observe the edge consistently every time. Find an angle and lighting that reveals the scratch pattern and edge well and always use that same angle/lighting to check on your edge. With an epi fluorescent scope it removes all reflectivity from metal, so you get the "true" view of your edge. Stay consistent and you'll eventually know when you're there and ready to move on to the next grit.

If you get a loupe the appearance of the edge is generally more important than the scratch pattern on the bevel. You will see the edge go from a very consistent really toothy appearance at 1500 to gradually smoother and smoother, until it looks like a perfect line as you're finishing the edge.

>>18725373
Heres is my no.1 reccomended channel for straight honing. This guy is a beast. Buy a jnat, stropping compound, or a strop off his etsy page for me. He is A+++++.

>>18725373
Oops...

https://youtube.com/@KeithVJohnson1

Search tomonagura on etsy for his page.

>>18725498
not actually the shaving anon but I appreciate the advice (and I am sure they will to)

>I'd say 15-20x is good enough
For more regular kitchen knive sharpening do you think a 10x will do? I remember working with some loupes years ago and the 20x ones had very short eye relief and it was hard to get the lighting just right. Will grab the 20x if I need it though.

>>18725519
>tomonagura on etsy for his page.
I have his website bookmarked but I didn't realize he had a store. Jnats are too expensive for me at the moment though.

>>18725620
Any sort of magnification will be helpful to show you the edge and a better view of the scratch pattern. I used this weird handheld microscope thing when I first started and I learned what to look for with what I had.

The edges I eventually got were outstanding. Jnats create extremely sharp edges that cut through beard hair with very little resistance, but feel dull or soft when running against your skin. Basically no redness after a 2 or 3 pass shave.

Ultra high grit synthetics create an edge some people find feels too sharp and harsh. If you're really into honing razors I would consider getting into jnats. The right stropping compound after a good hone will "soften" the edge, but it doesn't compare to a proper jnat edge.

Keiths economy shoubodani stones are really great beginner jnats, but they're still very expensive compared to synthetics. He sells some really great looking pastes. The ultra fine ones need your edge to be there before working properly tho.

Keith is a great dude. He gave me a free Japanese paring knife(>>18725498 this knife) with one of my orders around xmas. I've spent many thousands on super high end jnats over the years, and they never dissapoint. Unbelievable, godlike, stones. He hasn't dropped any super stones for a while, which is a bit of a bummer, but I can't really complain.

https://www.etsy.com/shop/TomoNagura

Look at this freehand knife edge I got from one of his stones. 200x magnification.