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/ck/ - Food & Cooking


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17522012 No.17522012 [Reply] [Original]

Have you ever taken a coffee class before?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bGKfyTMxu-I

Previous Thread: >>7500805

>> No.17522016

>>17522012
Can you substitute milk or creme with your boyfriend's semen? Does it mix well with coffee?

>> No.17522029

Am I missing out on anything because I never pay more than $6/lb for coffee ever?

>> No.17522030

>>17522029
*whole bean coffee

>> No.17522053

>>17522012
Previously >>17500805
Oppss....
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0YRXOeBrwVo

>> No.17522061

Are you actually retarded

>> No.17522067

The old thread wasn't even at bump limit you dumb faggot

>> No.17522073

OP is a nigger
nigger nigger nigger nigger nigger nigger

>> No.17522121
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17522121

>>17522029
>>17522030
Yeah you're drinking processed food. You should go to a local roaster

>> No.17522250
File: 2.41 MB, 1920x2069, InShot_20220222_154614486.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
17522250

Dare I say .... A E R O P R E S S G A N G

>> No.17522253
File: 27 KB, 642x359, afancy.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
17522253

>>17522012
>>17522053
Latte art makes me feel fancy

>> No.17522666

I can't wait for that moron to buy a Pharos and have to hold it down with his feet for light roasts.

>> No.17523220
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17523220

Is that a fucking rose gold melodrip?

>> No.17523359

What is the best kona coffee brand?

>> No.17523830

why do people obsess over espresso?

>> No.17523865

Is a drip machine the most efficient cup of coffee per gram of coffee used? recently got a french press and feel like i'm using four times as much coffee to get only 4 cups.

>> No.17523867

About to make a V60. What will I think of it?

>> No.17523879
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17523879

>Stopped drinking coffee
>Head hurt for 2 days
>Basically haven't had coffee for months
>If I drink a cup now tomorrow I will get headache if I don't drink another
why is the human mind so weak?

>> No.17523985

>>17523867
you'll be happy, unless you've made it better than it is in your head. coffee is just coffee, in the end

>> No.17524013

>>17523865
pour over is more efficient cause you'll extract more by doing it manually. tastes better too.
but yes, percolation uses less than immersion

>> No.17524091

>out of beans
>beans on order won't arrive until Wednesday
wtf do I do?

>> No.17524140
File: 989 KB, 1800x1800, 1494927F-0ABD-4C4D-BC42-AD1628C48782.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
17524140

I threw out my drip machine because I was tired of drinking ass and trying to mask it with crème and sugar. Bought an aero press and some beans from a local roaster who also grinded them for me. My coffee is now incredibly smooth and easy to drink black. But my problem now is that my coffee… doesn’t taste like coffee. I don’t know how to explain it except that it’s really light and I’m only getting a hint of the flavor notes. So what should I do? Would getting a dark roast bring back that “coffee” flavor I want back? I ask because man these beans are fucking expensive.

>> No.17524211

>>17524091
buy some store beans to hold you over?

>> No.17524466

>>17522016
yes, but it will curdle. tastes great tho.

>> No.17524474

>>17524211
You expect me to buy beans from the grocer like some sort of welfare recipient?

>> No.17524484

>>17522029
yes

>> No.17524500

>>17522666
cursed trips. also yes, anyone that buys a horizontal hand grinder is a moron.

>> No.17524503

>>17523830
fags will indeed do fag shit.

>> No.17524509

>>17524140
what the fuck do you think coffee is supposed to taste like? burnt, roasty, bitter, acidic, harsh? if this is even remotely what you think coffee tastes like and you enjoy that then you dont actually like coffee.

inb4 some dark roast schizo gets ass mad.

>> No.17524607
File: 44 KB, 220x220, sulking-anime-gif-4.gif [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
17524607

>>17524509
>what the fuck do you think coffee is supposed to taste like?
I don't know anymore! That's the problem. I bought a good home brewer and expensive local beans and yet I prefer mcdonalds coffee cause at least it has that "coffee" flavor.

>> No.17524694

>>17524607
If you want that "coffee" flavour, look for flavour notes like chocolate, nutty, toffee, and balanced
Go for medium or slightly dark roasts as well

>> No.17524763

>>17524607
>I prefer mcdonalds coffee
lucky.

maybe get a moka pot and buy dark beans and just completely fuck up the brew and just let it sit on the stove and burn.

maybe buy a percolator and do a long brew and let it burn
this guy has a good video on how to burn your coffee
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E9avjD9ugXc

>> No.17524930

>>17524607
Order a bag of stumptown house blend. You now live for medium blends and cheap brazilians.
https://www.stumptowncoffee.com/products/house-blend
>>17524500
Its a good post to pull pocket 6s on.

>> No.17524935

>>17522012
damn that looks delicious

>> No.17525051

>>17524930
i swear i get/see dubs and trips in /ck/ more than any other board.

>> No.17525065

>>17523879
To be pedantic, it's that the human mind/digestive system is so strong. Caffeine/alcohol/heroin/etc. is seen by the body as a poison, and the body will adapt to the presence of it in the form of tolerance.
Withdrawals are an unfortunate mirror effect of that tolerance

>> No.17525077

Does anyone else find it hard to rank coffee beans?
I bought 7 different beans and have been swapping between them, but can't find a solid order

>> No.17525084 [DELETED] 

CP general coffee is shaweet.

>> No.17525122

>>17525077
did you buy 7 beans at once?

if you wanted to go this far you could buy 2 at a time and do
A vs B, A wins
C vs D, D wins
E vs F, E wins

and then test the winners against each other.

also testing group 1 for a whole week, (i dont know how many coffees you drink a day) but it could go

A for breakfast, B for lunch and then swap the next day. B for breakfast, A for lunch. and do that for a week and record detailed notes for each coffee and then come to a conclusion at the end of the 7 days.

or you could brew both at the same time and sip A clear pallet and then sip B and do like a back and forth testing again for a week.

>> No.17525171

been drinking so much coffee that I'm afraid that going to bed(and thus not drinking coffee) will lead to lethal withdrawals. help me bros what do I do...

>> No.17525178

I'm.kt a fucking faggot right. But oatmilk mochas are so good

>> No.17525274

bros should i be using 98-99 degree C water for a v60 brew or something in the lower 90s range?
>>17525171
1 week T break, first 3 days are hard the rest is piss, then go back to having a cup a day

>> No.17525396

>>17522053
Hey thanks for that video. Never even considered looking at flip coffee. Is it any good and can I get my hands on some roasted here in the US?

>> No.17525402

Question: is there a decent tutorial on how to pour simple latte art? All the espresso videos I've looked at just assumed I know how to pour the hearts and shit

>> No.17525427

>>17525402
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SiefJJv-Qho

i literally just typed in "tutorial on how to pour simple latte art"

are you retarded anon?

>> No.17525912

That's a real hot coffeepot

>> No.17526127
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17526127

Singapore Coffee
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vN1ljjMZqWw

>>17525396
I don't know where you would get Filipino coffee in USA...

>> No.17526192

>>17525077
What the fuck are you talking about

>> No.17526243

>>17523830
>why do people obsess over espresso?
High cost entry.

>> No.17526364

Flair sprays aggressively to the side and brews too short not letting pressure build . Grind finer tamp harder, right?
Also I think I fucked up ordering a 30$ WDT from amazon. I should have gotten something that makes the grounds level instead.
Changed to a better scale and suddenly coffee tastes different too and 18g is maybe not enough

>> No.17526461

>>17522029
lol no, grocery store coffee is as good as it gets. don't let these yuppies tell you otherwise; its all the same. it's just coffee.

>> No.17526697

>>17525274
depends a bit on roast level and flow. Hoffman says boiling, but I've usually had better cups with 90 on my kettle. 80 if dark even. do what works

>> No.17526794
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17526794

>buy an expensive grinder
>buy fancy whole coffee beans
>make a cup
>it doesn't even taste like coffee
I've been memed yet again.

>> No.17526798

>>17522016
No

>> No.17526813

>>17525396
Any Arabica from the Cordilleras region is pretty good, you just have to find a good roaster here since most of the cheap ones sell it burnt kek. Other than those, I've tried Kapeng Barako which is a Liberica variant, although most of it is Excelsa nowadays. The darker roasts taste like soil, the medium to lighter ones tastes much better, they have the fruity notes of a jackfruit.

>> No.17526857

>>17523879
If you eat, sleep, hydrate, and do all the other crap you're supposed to the withdrawal isn't as bad. If you taper you probably won't notice it at all. If you're coming cold off a three day bender of chaining caffeinated drinks at work then enjoy your 28 hour migraine.

>> No.17526861

>>17524091
eat the coffee resin out of your grinder

>> No.17527001

>>17526794
how did you make the cup?

>> No.17527493

>>17526364
Yes. What wdt? I just bought an etsy acupuncture needle one and it works great.

>> No.17527521

>>17526364
>tamp harder
nah, light pressure (15lbs) is fine and is harder to make uneven.
>grind finer
yea probably, but also check to make sure your bed is level before and after tamping

>> No.17527536

Am I the only one who puts hot sauce and cinnamon in black coffee?

>> No.17527540
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17527540

I just drink 1-2 cups french press coffee a day. Sometimes I'll go to a nice restaurant or bakery and get a cafe con leche, or some kind of milky sugary coffee.

>> No.17527569

>>17527493
>FusedLine WDT Tool and Self-Aligning Stand from Amazon
I gave up of trying to get acupuncture needles and make up myself. Seems like the exact same thing as the ones on etsy. Probably from the same 3dprinter blueprint. Fuck I actually had 3dprinter businesses near me that could make it much cheaper

>>17527521
I grind it on 8 clicks standard comandante mk4, maybe my previous scale was such utter shit that it also added up weight of the beans falling down and I used way more coffee than the 18 grams I planned
My tamping definitely sucks. Recently I tried to add the coffee to the filter gradually and shake it so it spreads all over properly, but last time the flair still sprayed like crazy.

>> No.17527645

>>17527569
>Seems like the exact same thing as the ones on etsy.
That fusedline guy has an etsy shop too. I went with the one from "3DPrintedEssentials" and put in the needles from swork design. Keep the funnel on and stir the shit out of that coffee. Post the bed before tamping.
>>17527536
Nope.
https://ujjo.com/

>> No.17527766
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17527766

jdaV60wditoi?

>> No.17527781

>>17527645
>Post the bed before tamping
sorry, I'm a bit esl. Does that mean to make sure the edges are extra stirred?

>> No.17527803

>>17527781
I want to see what your coffee looks like AFTER wdt but before you tamp. Prep is everything so take as long as you need while the flair preheats.
https://youtu.be/xp3GIR9lynE

>> No.17527818

>>17527803
Ah as in post in the thread. I don't even have my WDT yet. Hopefully I'll get it before the 20th.
Do you have any advice on how to level the grounds without a special tool? I feel like that's one of my problems too

>> No.17527878
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17527878

>>17527818
Yeah lol. Use the wdt deep in the basket to declump the lower layer, then pull halfway out and use it to move grounds around until its nearly level. Then tap the basket on your counter to settle and tamp. Before the etsy tool I was using a needle shoved into a cork to do it on my old flair. Pic related, seller told me to sand the (old) needles so my baskets don't get scratched.

>> No.17527879

just made a mocha with my moka, what did i think of it?

>> No.17527896

>>17527878
Nice. That's about how I plan to use it too once I get it. I tried pushing a needle into a cork but I gave up. I also tried it with a guitar string, and that didn't go too well either.

>>17527879
You thought it was delicious, but not nearly as much as the Vietnamese egg coffee you will make

>> No.17527941

Who the fuck buys kenyans? Why is there a demand for coffee that tastes like underripe tomatoes?

>> No.17527950
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17527950

coffee sucks, try a refreshing Mug Root Beer instead
>>17525379

>> No.17528004

>>17527950
shut up baby dick

>> No.17528019

>>17528004
nah why dont you go get a nice cold refreshing mug root beer

>> No.17528037

>>17527941
>Who the fuck buys kenyans
slave owners i would guess.

>> No.17528090
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17528090

>>17527896
After using the 3d printed shit for a week I felt like a moron for suffering with the cork for years. Straight level up. I've also got a pullman chisel now and like it, but no experience with distribution tools for the taller flair baskets.
https://cremacoffeeproducts.com/products/39-25mm-and-45-5mm-for-flair%E2%84%A2-tamper-distributor-combos

>> No.17528092

>>17522012
Thoughts on "flavored" coffee powder?

>> No.17528179

>>17527941
I think Kenyan coffees are great. I drank 60lbs of them last year.

>> No.17528426

Just got my white/maple Stagg EKG. What do I think of it?

>> No.17529073
File: 210 KB, 900x900, HARIO-decanter_02.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
17529073

right now I am using the filter holder from a cheap coffee machine ripped out and placed over a mason jar, i make pourovers using a small lidless pot right off the stove. I think my technique is reasonable, but there's a limit to how flat and uniform i can make the bed of grounds since the filter holder isn't perfectly round, and since the pot has no lip I'll never have a consistent pour. how much of a difference would a kettle + a v60 decanter+filter make(pic related)? is it just a convenience upgrade, or would I really make a better end product?

>> No.17529119
File: 163 KB, 700x1055, 68ac7918d4e1291ec01b328a898e5693.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
17529119

>I think my technique is reasonable

>> No.17529140

>>17529073
is this bait? we have no way of knowing how awful your current set-up is but plastic v60s are so cheap there's no reason not to get one and you can find a decanter for cheap at a thrift store. if you drink coffee a few times a week there's no reason not to get the literal bare minimum for decent brewing. add a cheap gooseneck and a manual grinder and you have a pretty good starter setup

>> No.17529157

Just made ramen with my Stagg. What did I think of it?

>> No.17529173

>>17527941
been enjoying a very nice kirinyaga lately, you either got filtered hard or bought some shit beans

>> No.17529236

>buy a $200 conical grinder
>buy fancy whole coffee beans (light roast)
>make a pot in a drip coffee machine
>tastes burnt as fuck
why

>> No.17529239

>>17529236
do you just mean it's bitter? and what is "fancy whole coffee beans"

>> No.17529244

>>17529236
Clean it. There shouldn't be fond on your coffee pot.

>> No.17529315

>>17529140
>we have no way of knowing how awful your current set-up
? not sure what details I left out. I feel like if you've seen one cheap coffee machine filter holder you've seen them all. same with a small pot with no lip..
a decanter with a build in v60 holder costs about 50 dollars, same for a stovetop gooseneck. I've already got a grinder for about 80 dollars, I'm not exactly wealthy so I'm trying to figure out where I can get the most improvement

>> No.17529319

>>17529244
it was literally my first time using it

>> No.17529323

>>17529239
no, it tasted bad

>> No.17529386

>>17529319
>>17529323
Post beans.

>> No.17529428

>>17529386
https://www.fazendacoffee.com/collections/coffee/products/reserve-ethiopia-misty-valley

>> No.17529506

>>17529428
https://www.baristahustle.com/blog/coffee-compass/

>> No.17529530

>>17529428
Dry process, or natural process Ethiopians can have very fruited flavors, but the tradeoff is the often have funky flavors as well. I've had several chocolate/blueberry ones, and they are not usually the cleanest cup. Clean natural process Ethiopians exist, but they're a minority. If you want a cleaner, sweeter cup (although with less fruity flavors), choose a wet process or washed African coffee. Don't be too upset if you didn't like this coffee. Keep trying other ones. Play around with grind sizes with this one. Coarser. Worst case scenario you can throw some milk in it or drink it iced.

>> No.17529561

>>17522012
What's a good cream substitute? I am out of half and half and outta milk

>> No.17529570

>>17529561
Drink it black or go to the store.

>> No.17529666

>>17529506
>>17529530
Thank you anons. I checked the back of my coffee bag and it says 2 TBSP of coffee: 6oz of water, which is like 1:6 and not what i did

>> No.17529689

>>17529666
Get a scale. Discordtrannies like this cheap one.
https://www.amazon.com/WEIGHTMAN-Digital-Silicone-Stainless-Included/dp/B07XQS8JL6

>> No.17529746
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17529746

>>17525379
remember to grab a refreshing Mug Root Beer

>> No.17529751

>>17529315
did you somehow miss the 'get a plastic v60 and a thrifted a server/decanter' part? it'll be easier to clean and produce the same coffee as the hario decanter

>> No.17529779

>>17529315
A plastic V60 costs $10

>> No.17529810

>>17522012
Cheapest grounds that dont taste like garbage? I have been drinking instant for years because I just want my caffeine hit but absolutely hate the taste.

>> No.17529822

>>17529810
Aldi's breakfast blend(the one with the rooster on it)

>> No.17530013

for home use, why should i not immersion brew? seems like the most effective thing out there.

>> No.17530061

>>17530013
you have to use more beans per cup.

>> No.17530097
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17530097

what type of coffee do you guys drink?

>> No.17530130

>>17530097
>lungo
>less concentrated espresso
So coffee?

>> No.17530187

>>17530097
Aeropress

>> No.17530195

>>17523865
turkish.

>> No.17530223

>>17530130
Do you think espresso is just strong coffee?

>> No.17530246

>>17529073
>mason jar
you have reached the pinnacle fren.
>>17529140
>bait
do not listen to this consoomer.
>>17529315
plastic is poison
I found some 20µ 316ss that I fashioned into a funnel.
I'll let you know how it goes.

>> No.17530256

>>17529428
east african coffee tastes like dirt.
roast it darker then try it.

>> No.17530275

>>17529561
coconut is the only substitute I like.
>>17530223
it is.

>> No.17530361

>>17529315
https://www.amazon.com/Hario-V60-Starter-Dripper-Filters/dp/B002BA2J06?th=1&psc=1
20$
you can do 700+ in it btw

>> No.17530363

>>17530275
Espresso is just coffee with a little instant stirred in.

>> No.17530371

>>17530223
It literally is

>> No.17530372

>>17530363
cheddar cheese is just aged american.

>> No.17530373

>>17530372
Really?

>> No.17530460

>>17530097
why is there a differentiation between espresso, french pressed coffee and brewed coffee? all ways of making coffee is brewing isnt it?

anyway i make a full 9 cup moka pot and then pour in a bit of cold full cream lactose free milk, what would that be called?
>inb4 shit

>> No.17530583

>>17530460
it's spelled "mocha" my esl friend

>> No.17530587

>>17530583
shit bait faggot.

>> No.17530594

>>17530587
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caf%C3%A8_mocha

>> No.17530614

>>17530460
yes it's all brown water.
but not all bread is the same either.

>> No.17530619

>>17530594
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moka_pot

>> No.17530621

>>17530619
If the bait was shit and you recognized it as such, why do you keep responding?

>> No.17530624

>>17530621
I am not him my esl fren.

>> No.17530629

>>17530624
shit bait esl faggot

>> No.17530656

>>17530621
because it was actually bait purchased fresh directly from a local roaster

>> No.17530679

>>17530656
I actually roasted it myself.

>> No.17530700

>>17522012
A friend of mine had a coffee course in college. The professor convinced the school to fund the "lab" portion where he just bought expensive ass coffee and any brewing equipment he wanted. The actual lab was just lessons on developing a palette

>> No.17530709

>>17529822
KEK

>> No.17530740

>>17530614
>baked bread
>small bread (that has been baked)
>french bread (that has been baked)

like why say french and espresso and then group all other brewing methods under "brewed" like they have all be brewed, like if you are going to make the distinction for 2 of them it is just and fair to make a distinction for all brewing method otherwise it is biased and discriminatory.

>> No.17530802

>>17530740
https://youtu.be/WUlANUo44rM

>> No.17530806

>>17530700
california or new york?

>> No.17530837

>>17530806
Texas

>> No.17530920

>>17530837
he got a lesson in being scammed then didn't he.
some people need that.

>> No.17530944
File: 167 KB, 1066x643, yy1.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
17530944

>>17530097
Cafe Latte. Sometimes affogato.

>> No.17530977

>>17530802
>make a good point
>dickhead fumbles because he cant think of a good reply
>posts one or more of these "cope, seethe, dilate, YWNBAW"
classic

>> No.17531002

>>17530977
>ingredients
>oven
>baker
I was making a point

>> No.17531024

>>17530977
you will enjoy the "coffee" if "she" looks and smells good enough no matter where it started or how it was prepared.

>> No.17531031

>>17522012
>>17522253
>>17530944
>"""latte art"""
gay

>> No.17531157

coffee coffee coffee coffee

>> No.17531184

Just made myself a beautiful cup of pacamara. Wish I could have another. What are you drinking this fine morning, anon?

>> No.17531210

>>17527941
Fuck you kid, Kenyan is top tier. Especially the second half of last year, and even now. The kenyans coming out are fucking solid. Better than ethiopian recently.

>> No.17531251

eurobros, where do you buy your beans?

>> No.17531278

>>17531251
From the US, where all the good roasters are.

>> No.17531279

>>17531251
There's a shitton of places in London so I can buy locally, but I mean, you can just buy shit online. There's a lot of good roasters in EU, if you havent tried yet, try Coffee Collective, Prolog and April. They're all in Copenhagen, and then there's The Barn in Berlin, they're amazing too.

>> No.17531300

>google "freshly roasted coffee" in your native tongue
>pick place closest to you
>it's good every time
wtf bros

>> No.17531318

>>17531300
It's pretty hard to get bad specialty coffee these days. Sure, not all of it will be to your taste but straight up bad coffee? You'd basically have to go out of your way and find the nearest afro-cuban owned robusta roaster.

>> No.17531333
File: 131 KB, 722x1000, Ethiopian qt.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
17531333

>>17531318
Even that doesn't sound bad

>> No.17531336

>>17531333
It's pretty bad.

>> No.17531462

>>17526364
>spend 220€ on Commandante grinder to finally complete my 500€ Espresso set-up (with 180€ Flair Classic)
>click 10 squirts through the flair like diarrhea
>click 9 results at slow drops even at 9+ bar

Shit. Fuck.

>> No.17531475
File: 49 KB, 656x679, 1638308076529.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
17531475

shut up queer

>> No.17531497

>>17531462
stock commandante clicks are pretty big for espresso, get the red clix or return it and get something else

>> No.17531498

>>17531462
Red clix tiem? It turns your 9 clicks into 18

>> No.17531535

>>17531462
>€
>Espresso

fag

>> No.17531816

>>17530802
ywnbaw (because you are too cowardly to transition)

>> No.17531819

>>17531535
They should call it €spresso because only eurofags drink it

>> No.17531841

finally a new hoffmeme video
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J6yWOyNq0uw

>> No.17532058

>>17531841
Pretty solid vid
That Lance Hendrick thing he linked is like 30 mins long. Not sure if I wanna watch, but tempted

>> No.17532112
File: 9 KB, 142x355, index.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
17532112

Bought more supermarket coffee because I'm punishing myself financially for no reason. Best by date is march 13. It have a flavor profile a lot like pic related.

>> No.17532121

>>17532112
Wew, I just googled to make sure it's safe. I guess I can come back to this around June or July.
>Coffee Grounds
The oils in the coffee begin to evaporate at a quicker rate, On average, an unsealed bag of ground coffee should last about 3-5 months past the expiration date. When opened, it should be expected to last 3-5 months in the pantry.

>> No.17532394

why doesn't anyone ever play the economy angle on pour-over? I swear it uses like half the coffee of a cheap coffee machine

>> No.17532427

>>17532394
probably because the equipment (although cheap) and the care it requires (although almost nothing) is enough to deter people who view coffee as a caffeine supplement to be measured on a cost per cup basis. pour-over chads also tend to be specialty sisters (in general, outside of the weirdos who post here)

>> No.17532555

>>17532394
it's not a very good method to brew coffee if you don't want to learn to do it properly, which would be kinda pointless if you're a tastlet buying cheapest coffee available anyway

>> No.17532562

Do you guys ever hate a note while cupping that you find enjoyable in an actual brew? I was getting what I can only describe as rotting trash in this yellow honey caturra but it's really quite nice in an actual cup.

>> No.17532573

>>17532555
I have a hard time imagining someone doing a pour-over and getting a worse result than some cheap basic percolation coffee machine. like yeah, if by proper you mean "bloom the coffee and swirl over some boiling water", but anything beyond that is just extra, you've already btfo the heavily channeled, underheated shitty extraction of a coffee machine.

>> No.17532975

>>17532573
Its hard to convince the perpetually downtrodden that their lives could be slightly more enjoyable if they put the time in. Just let them drink their maxwell house.

>> No.17533655

coof

>> No.17533673

>>17522029
you're not missing out fren
t. $3.14/16 oz maxwell house enjoyer

>> No.17533697

>>17522012
not trying to shill but i literally just make my coffee with 3 products from bodum
https://www.bodum.com/us/en/11571-109-pour-over
https://www.bodum.com/us/en/11883-259us-melior
https://www.bodum.com/us/en/11160-57us-4pl-bistro

best coffee ever. i keep a cheapo shit drip mr. coffee in the closet for when i have guests over and need to make a quick 12 cup that taste like shit to me but ok to non coffee snobs

>> No.17533923

>>17522012
there is no point in me taking a coffee class unless i want it to be my career like those dumb ass hipsters at sbux

>> No.17534307

Is it possible to get a decent electric burr grinder for $60-80 if it's exclusively being used for french press? My brother is using a blade grinder and I was thinking even a less capable grinder would be a significant improvement. The blade grinder is horrible.

>> No.17534344

>>17525427
Perhaps. Thanks though will practice using this as a guide

>> No.17534365

>>17534307
Check facebook marketplace. Locally I see a used Baratza Encore for 65

>> No.17534373

>>17534365
I am banned from Facebook for being too based.

>> No.17534426

Just received my Kingrinder K6
Did a quick grind and my totally scientific opinion is that it has much better grind quality/consistency than the Encore I was using before.
With it costing less than the Encore's MSRP, it's a crazy value if you're okay with manual grinding. Maybe 15 - 20 seconds to grind 11g of beans at one rotation on the grind adjustment

>> No.17534661

>>17533923
>taking a coffee class
I'd just get a job at a coffee house if I wanted an education.

>> No.17534675

>>17534373
use your "grandmother's" account.

>> No.17534683

>>17534426
>Kingrinder K6
48mm
>Baratza Encore
40mm
checks out.
still conical.

>> No.17534744

>>17534683
Are there flat burr manual grinders?

>> No.17534811
File: 305 KB, 1048x1584, 1593188459647.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
17534811

>conical burrs are bad because.... because they just are okay????

>> No.17534846

>>17534811
Any decently made conical burr should be fine for its service life if you clean it regularly, and unless you care about grain uniformity it's just as good as flat.
Flat is still superior technically, but unless you're processing a fuck-ton of coffee I doubt anyone but the owner would notice the difference.

>> No.17534855
File: 79 KB, 1030x554, grain maker.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
17534855

>>17534744
and that, "ladies" and gentlemen, is a proper bait.
*bow*
*bow*

>> No.17535122
File: 424 KB, 1536x2048, expresso maker.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
17535122

hello coffee friends

>> No.17535157

>>17535122
>Heat Exchange
you must not run a cafe.

>> No.17535166

>>17535157
why would I want to own a business that will never make money

I am a self-employed entrepreneur anon

>> No.17535169
File: 209 KB, 1024x1024, lelit-mara-pl62x-hx-espresso-machine.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
17535169

>>17535166
what do the plastic tubes do?

>> No.17535196
File: 398 KB, 1024x1024, Lelit Bianca.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
17535196

what's flow control? is it important?
guess plastic is common.

>> No.17535201

>workflow
turned off for another month. thanks.

>> No.17535202
File: 56 KB, 670x566, Capture.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
17535202

>>17535169
water to boiler, vacuum breaker, there's two more plastic tubes just off to the bottom of this that feed the OPV back into the water tank

>>17535196
flow control is located in the group head, as a little wooden paddle that raises and lowers a (metal) restrictor into the top of the intake as in picrel

>> No.17535210

>>17535202
so are automatics piston driven?

>> No.17535216

>>17535210
not sure what you're asking anon

>> No.17535221

>>17535216
are the all pump driven?
or do any have some other mechanism like an automatic piston.

>> No.17535232

>>17535221
this model of machine has a proprietary pump but commonly they will come with either a vibratory or rotary pump.
Some "machines" do not rely on a pump to create pressure, but instead have a manually operated lever which will create as much pressure as you apply to it

>> No.17535371

>>17532562
no one?

>> No.17535399

>>17535371
I never found a honey I like.

>> No.17535411

>>17535399
how hard have you looked? honeys are incredible

>> No.17535420

>>17535411
I've had 4 or 5 from different origins.
Haven't like any.
Probably just me.

>> No.17535458

>>17522029
I have been making decaf at home and the acidic taste has become more and more noticable compared to when I buy a cappuchino.

https://youtu.be/epMDcqKoQys

>> No.17535466

>>17523879
It contains a powerful drug, caffeine

>> No.17535475

>>17535458
can you put chicory in an espresso machine?

>> No.17535481

>>17535420
from the same roaster? what is it you don't like about them? it's completely fine if we have different tastes, it's just curious to me because I have 4 or 5 different honeys just right now and they're so different I can't imagine there being some you wouldn't like.

>> No.17535487

>>17535481
idk they just don't taste as good to me as a wet process. I avoid honeys and dry process.

>> No.17535515
File: 1.25 MB, 1590x1284, Screen Shot 2022-03-10 at 4.53.16 AM.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
17535515

Lel my favourite roaster is doing this shit but I was meaning to try a new one. All profits go to charity, based or cringe?

>> No.17535520
File: 125 KB, 1080x720, 20220327.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
17535520

Coffee & croissants
Can it get any more french?

>> No.17535530

>>17535520
>can it get any more french
I gotcha bro
https://youtu.be/218LsAc_PwE?t=3

>> No.17535535

>>17535515
$25 for 3/4lb
lol
blm!
An internet clout media campaign.
it's modernity and cringe but do what you want central americans are usually good.

>> No.17535560

>>17535535
their coffee is excellent and I've really liked their other bourbons. also I collect coffee labels and think it would be nice to remember clownworld on the chance it should all get better.

>> No.17535592
File: 1.16 MB, 1836x1836, Flair filter after WDT before tamping.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
17535592

>>17527803
Huh. I just got it and used for the first time. The Flair didn't spray at all while brewing. I think I hit the 45 second mark too. Coffee tastes good maybe a bitter more bitterish.
Fuck, I guess the WDT is kind of a big deal after all.
That or just beginner's luck fluke.

I also got the 2020 Blackmirror Timemore scale. Still not sure if it fits my Flair or not. Seems to be sorta accurate even on a tilted surface like the Flair base. It's too tall though, and if I brew on it I won't be able to see how the stuff flows from the filter which kinda sucks.

>> No.17535641

>>17535592
Meh it was just a fluke, it's still sprays even with WDT on my second try. I guess puck preparation is a skill to be learned.

Ah well. Even when it sprays, it's already very drinkable now that I've got a better grinder.

>> No.17535834

>>17535520
>Can it get any more french?
yes, replace the coffee with shit red wine and the croissants with shit cigarettes.

>> No.17536008

>>17535535
>support neonazi AND communist terrorists at the same time with this overpriced coffee! WOW!

>> No.17536109

>>17535122
What equipment are you working with? Not knowledgeable to identify these by look yet

>> No.17536639

>>17535592
>>17535641
Think less in terms of evening out the surface of the puck and more in terms of getting the whole basket to an even density. Leave the funnel on the basket while you rake through the grounds. You'll have it down in a week.
>Seems to be sorta accurate even on a tilted surface like the Flair base. It's too tall though, and if I brew on it I won't be able to see how the stuff flows from the filter which kinda sucks.
If you look on the "Brew with Flair" facebook group there are a bunch of people who are putting their presses on risers. I've got a 2in slab of maple I'm going to do something with for the 58.

>> No.17536774

>>17536639
Yeah hopefully I'll learn. It's always good to have more options to fuck around with.
Making a riser sounds like a fun project.
Me I think I'll just not use the scale. I squeeze it all the way anyway and it still tastes good to me.
Having so much control over making coffee is definitely very fun

>> No.17536816
File: 161 KB, 670x1024, espresso-compass-670x1024_1024x1024.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
17536816

>>17536774
>Having so much control over making coffee is definitely very fun
I had a long spiel typed out about how you're learning how your variables affect the cup but you seem to be on top of it. Play around. Tare your cup, pull the shot and weigh the output. If you pull your phone out and time it you can figure out your flow rate which is kind of more important than the pressure. I've been doing like 4-6 bar @ ~1.7grams a second out on this fantastic medium roast blend. Having this printed out near my flair helped me alot early on.

>> No.17536842
File: 40 KB, 500x500, 51IbxRp2sJL.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
17536842

>>17522029
Depends. If you mostly drink drip coffee, then yes. There is no substitute for professionally roasted, fresh coffee beans. If you drink espressos or espresso drinks, then you're actually paying too much. The best espresso you can find is pic related which is like $4 a can in most grocery stores.

If you drink decaf, the decaf/chicory blend from Cafe Dumond is about as good as you can get.

>> No.17536854

>>17527536
>cinnamon
Basado

>> No.17536878

>>17527766
You used a blade grinder didn't you? Was your coffee sourish?

>> No.17536879
File: 513 KB, 1316x996, ss (2022-02-19 at 03.29.38).jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
17536879

i bought what seemed to be a pretty good light roast but when i pour a bit of water on the grounds to let them off-gas, nothing happens. is this an indicator of shit quality or just a lack of freshness?

>> No.17536884
File: 498 KB, 640x738, 1643487229332.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
17536884

>>17530097
black, no sugar no milk.

>> No.17536889

>>17522029
the 50-60 cents/oz brands on amazon are usually pretty good. copper moon is my recent go-to brand, SF Bay is good too.

>> No.17536972

>>17536879
lighter roasted coffee will off gas less aggressively than something darker, age can also reduce the amount of offgassing you see during the bloom. How'd it taste?

>> No.17537007

>>17536972
i originally put it in a french press since thats been what i always use, it was incredibly sour. ended up buying a kalita wave drip cup and that takes the edge off. it also changes flavor fairly dramatically as it sits. fresh off the drip it will be more mild then after sitting in the mug for like 30 minutes it will go back to sour.

>> No.17537428

so i ran out of beans and i said ok i can go a whole day without it. at the end of said day a huge headache started. this morning i bought more beans, brewed me some coffee, and headache dissapeared. did i get jewed into a soft addiction?

>> No.17538226

nigs

>> No.17538240

>>17537428
I intentionally skip a few days every 2 weeks or so, no problems for me.

>> No.17538316

>>17537007
grind finer and use hotter water

>> No.17538387

About to make a V60. What will I think of it?

>> No.17538631

Just made a V60. What did I think of it?

>> No.17538645

>>17538631
you felt it was a little dry on the sides of your tongue.

>> No.17538668

alright coffee boffins, I hear coffee dorks talking about using the ratio of 30g coffee to 500ml water in pour over. is this a meme? it seems way too strong. am I grinding my coffee too fine? what the hell

>> No.17538677

>>17538645
It was actually really good. Dialing in this juicy Colombian natural and it tastes like dark chocolate and cherries

>> No.17538718

>>17523879
If I go off coffee I have a headache for one day, malaise for a few days, and constipation for two weeks.
I've gone off of coffee a bunch of times to reset my tolerance. It always works.
>If I drink a cup now tomorrow I will get headache if I don't drink another
You haven't gone off it long enough. I believe you're exaggerating when you say you've been off it for "months".

>> No.17538759

>>17526794
if u grind them too thick or too thin it can fuck up the taste. (if you use a machine).
if you're just pouring it then idk git gud

>> No.17538829 [DELETED] 

will a comandante heem an ode fellow?

>> No.17538832

will a comandante outperform an ode fellow?

>> No.17538844

are illy or lavazza whole bean actually any good? Or will they be stale. Planning on making espresso with it

>> No.17538846

>>17538832
No. Ode is great for pour overs of long duration (only) and it is fantastic at them. Friend has one and the clarity is nearly on ek43 level - lower sweetness though.

>> No.17538862

>>17538832
Depends on your usecase. For espresso, yes. Otherwise probably not

>> No.17538877

>>17538862
>>17538846
if I just want a beast for pour overs, is ode the way to go? I had the idea of wasting money on a motor, feels like that could have gone to improve the burr or some shit, but if it's the best option it's the best option.

>> No.17538881

>>17538877
*I hate

>> No.17538916

>>17538885
shit that's a really unpleasant sound wtf. also why are you posting that right after I accidentally used the term "heem" here. that's a weird coincidence.

>> No.17538983

>>17538916
high and wrong thread lol

>> No.17539152

>>17536109
regular kitchen scale and timer, a mara X and a mignon specialita

>> No.17539201

another brew change another failure, it was ok but i think im going to use the voodoo method and do a shorter brew next time, im just getting too much roasty flavors.

maybe i need to play with the heat a little bit more, i think im lowering the heat too much.

good overall flavor from this yirgacheffe tho, not my favorite ethiopian so far but i hope to dial it in more over the next week.

grounds are super fluffy tho, pre ground but it looks like i just ground it fresh. (the new packaging is worse overall tho i think)
:)

>> No.17539332

hario switch, thoughts?

>> No.17539355

>>17539152
How do you like the mara X and the specialita? I was thinking of getting the specialita but have the df64 ordered. And maybe get the mara X as an upgrade down the road

>> No.17539384

>>17539332
Based and flexible.

>> No.17539402

>>17539355
Love the Mara X but only really "like" the specialita because the portafilter grip is honestly nearly useless. I've only just managed to get it to a point where it sits still with a bottomless pf and doesn't slide it off the side. Performance is great, 0.1g grind retention is a reality. I'm happy with it for ~550 Aud

>> No.17539419

>>17539201
roasty flavors? Get better coffee

Any other off flavors aside from that?

>> No.17539507

>>17522250
i miss mine. lil nigga was actually mad based and i totally took it for granted

>> No.17539561

>>17526364
>Flair sprays aggressively to the side
When I tamp I use my thumbs and index fingers to equally press down. I found this helped a lot with ensuring it was flat.

>> No.17539886

I feel like such a faggot. The comandate is too wide for my hands and it hurts when I grind

>> No.17539932

Is a salty-tasting coffee a sign of under extraction?

>> No.17540031
File: 81 KB, 988x988, ri9403_11-ims-en_aa.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
17540031

I bought a Gaggia Classic and a Eureka Mignon, and no matter how finely I grind, the extraction times are always too fast (around 15s). Is it maybe because of the higher default pressure that comes with the Gaggia that I should lower to 9 bar?

Also, pls recommend some online resource to dial in properly. I'm just trying different grind settings and the results of sourness seem to be kind of random.

Also, another noob question, am I supposed to fill 2 cups at once like picrel? Because maybe then the extraction time would be correct (2*15s = 30s). I'm using the standard 18g of coffee.

>> No.17540032

>>17539561
Yhyh bruv. I use both hands and the index thumb thing. Today coffee was funny, I forgot the dispersion screen and it came out tasting very aggressive in both biterness and sourness.

Yeah the wdt helps a little with spraying, but it's weird. It fluffs out the coffee so much I need to tap it on the counter to get it to settle back in the filter.
Doing 20 seconds 2 bar preinfusion and pressing it to espresso levels after.
What I don't get is why my coffee looks so foamy as it flows. Maybe I should start weighing the liquid and do the the flow calculation stuff the other dude said, could be just the type of beans too.

Eh I'll figure it out. I'm enjoying the process

>> No.17540035

>>17540032
how fresh is your coffee?

>> No.17540053

>>17540035
Roasting date 9/2/2022, but could be their old stock because it was on sale. Says columbian suprimo in the package

>> No.17540100
File: 188 KB, 994x1350, 01.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
17540100

>>17535520
>>17535834
Monsieur, sacred blu!

>> No.17540128

Breffus:
Italians from Brazil fresh roast med-dark whole milk stevia sugar.
Concubine-made buffalo chicken jalapeño pizza.
blunt.

>> No.17540131

>>17540031
if you aren't seizing the mignon you have a few options:
1 - grind finer
2 - grind a larger dose
3 - new baskets
4 - change opv settings
make sure your wdt is consistent too

for my gcp I found the most success going 20.5 in for 40 out in a 20gm ims basket, with the mignon only a few notches from seizing. Consistent 25-27s extractions

>> No.17540137

>>17540128
Would be good, but you had to dude weed it like a tard

>> No.17540139

>>17540128
>Italians from Brazil
What

>> No.17540310
File: 676 KB, 538x823, switch.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
17540310

>> No.17540395

>>17539419
>off flavors
i never said that. its not a bad thing its just not what i was expecting from a ethiopian. overall it seems more like a medium light roast instead of the light roast i was expecting. usually when i get flavors like this which differ from what i was expecting i chalk it up to user error and i think about what i should do better instead of just blaming the coffee right off the bat.

i went to a local roaster that everyone in town says is the best and i hated their coffee so this yirgacheffe is an improvement over whatever they gave me

i have mostly been trying single origin coffee for the last few months now but the best coffee that i have bought was a blend (ethiopia sidamo guji heirloom varietal 50% and then 50% a mix of 3 brazilian varieties(red acaiá, catuai, mundo novo)). i never had a "bad" cup of that blend, even if i fucked the brew i still enjoyed the result. after im "done" exploring the world of single origin i will check out some other blends but i think i will return to that first blend as my daily driver so to speak.

>> No.17540410

Got some Marcella 100% Arabica pregound from Menards. Flavor notes include malt-o-meal, dust, baking chocolate, chalk.

>> No.17540425
File: 66 KB, 960x720, 1485313775592.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
17540425

>>17540410
gross

>> No.17540766

do they clean hotel coffee makers?

>> No.17540778

is the 1Zpresso Q2 the best thing in its price range for a v60?

>> No.17540844

>>17540766
>do they clean hotel coffee makers
anon...

>> No.17540931

>>17522250
I’m not sure if I’m using it right. The coffee I get is meh. Maybe I should switch beans. All the beans in my area are extremely acidic. I’m not a huge fan of that.

>> No.17540945

>>17524694
Nice. This is what I was looking for. I have the same problem.

>> No.17541094

>>17526794
>buy a setup for non-shit coffee
>fuck up brewing of said coffee
>whinge on 4chan
like clockwork

>> No.17541171
File: 421 KB, 1210x1210, Screenshot 2022-03-11 at 12-46-30 Eureka Mignon Crono Coffee Grinder in Matte Black.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
17541171

Do you guys have two grinders? One for espresso and one for coarser stuff? I don't have an espresso machine, but I want to get a grinder for pour over. Debating if I should just get a good poor over grinder or something that can do both for when I eventually get an espresso machine.

Pic related is what I'm thinking of getting but it doesn't perform well with espresso,

>> No.17541177

For me it's the french press or as I like to refer to it, The Press™

>> No.17541288

>>17540137
dude

>> No.17541292

>>17540137
weed

>> No.17541309

>>17539402
Fug should have spring for the Mara X. I’ve got gaggia classic pro remorse now. Flipping the e61 lever looks so much more satisfying than button pressing. But I’m still waiting on my grinder and I guess I’ll stick with that. Enjoy your coffee bro.

>> No.17541507

>>17541171
if you own a n espresso machine you dont bother with any other types of coffee

>> No.17541511

>>17540031
changing opv seems to be the best way to fix this
i had the problem before and tried a few methods before the opv mod finally got it

>> No.17541587

is the method to measuring pressure with a blind basket retarded? do I have to buy a gauge?

>> No.17541666
File: 1.26 MB, 3226x4096, 1646548417636.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
17541666

>>17522012
Today I had a Mr.Brown Indonesian black cold brew as my coffee for today

>> No.17541851

>>17541171
Get a hand grinder for filter or get a grinder that can handle filter okay.

>> No.17542364

>>17540395
roastiness is a flavor defect

I was asking to see what kind of dialing in I could help you do. You said the brew was a failure.

>> No.17542607

>>17540778
Probably but order the aliexpress one. You want the heptagonal or 7core version that is a clone of the commandante burrs, not the pentagonal one thats sold in the us.

>> No.17542798

>>17541309
I had a Silvia first. Very happy with the move to the Mara X. Flipping the lever is indeed a lot more fun but lubricating the camshaft every month is not.

>> No.17542906

>>17542364
oh i see. i apologise.

by roasty i mean like a very savory smell. i would liken it to close to a vegemite smell. but it wasn't a smell it was a taste. again not a bad thing just unexpected.

todays coffee, i did like i said i would and wow much better results.
it took a little more work in the prep but once i got it on the heat i did a pretty short brew and all of those "roasty" flavors are gone. i hope i can repeat this brew tomorrow.

>> No.17542955

I put a shot of howler head in my espresso and it tasted like a dark stout. Very strangely enjoyable.

>> No.17543101
File: 87 KB, 612x700, 02.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
17543101

>>17540310
>>17541666
You open a cafe. What's your opening day soundtrack?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zTbJBnkRkFo

>> No.17543213 [DELETED] 

>>17540032
>What I don't get is why my coffee looks so foamy as it flows
How fresh are the beans?

>> No.17543442

>>17543101
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fGx6K90TmCI

>> No.17543460

>>17543101
>niche zero and linea mini
kek imagine going to a """cafe""" that has a worse setup than your average redditor

>> No.17543497

>>17524140
Make Turkish coffee.

>> No.17543898

>>17540945
Also I've found south american beans give more chocolatey and more "coffee" flavor than african beans. If you've got a local roaster that sells medium-dark peruvian beans try those out

>> No.17544066
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17544066

>>17543101
>>17543460
Why so negative?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X_7zghWA6QY

>> No.17544100

Any of you own a technivorm cup one? bought one recently because my mornings are too busy to do pourovers anymore and I just want a cup of coffee but it seems like it's just tunneling in the middle instead of extracting the whole bed of coffee. Still tastes good just feel like I'm fucking something up. Could it just be the grind size

>> No.17544120

>>17543101
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=89F5fpvwPr0

>> No.17544334

>>17544066
>paying a barista to make drip coffee
DUDE did you just POUR HOT WATER over COFFEE? that takes AS MUCH SKILL AS MAKING GOOD ESPRESSO! PLEASE TAKE MY MONEY!!!

>> No.17544340

>>17544334
>baiting this late in a thread

>> No.17544446

>>17544334
The gear he uses costs more than your pathetic life, retard. This guy is a professional.

>> No.17544717

>>17522012
>Have you ever taken a coffee class before?
I have not.
My current coffee's a cherry and blackcurrant medium roast drip coffee from a Scottish independent roastery. I'm on a plan to get a new coffee every two weeks.
Currently having it black but I occassionally put in a little bit of milk. I don't like sugar in coffee

>> No.17544732

>>17544717
I think it's a Colombian coffee I should say

>> No.17544816

>>17539507
So good right? Buy another, they're not expensive
>>17540931
Keep trying bro

>> No.17544831

>>17543101
No I don't.

Alpha Mist - Antiphon

>> No.17544856

I spooned off the crema on the french press today and the finished drink was drastically different. I didn't expect as much clarity and change in taste.

>> No.17545087

>>17544856
crema or any foam for that matter sucks, i dont know why anyone would want foam in their drink. for like hot chocolate i can see a case for it but coffee? no shot.

>> No.17545368

>>17544831
Alfa*. I've posted that album a few times over the years.

>> No.17545495

>>17541851
I'll likely get a decent hand grinder and save money for a good espresso grinder. I like camping too so it makes sense.
Thanks.

>> No.17546057

>>17545495
Just get a KinGrinder. Same burrs as 1zpresso, same aluminum build quality, but a lot cheaper.

>> No.17546108
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17546108

>>17526127
how to I experience this? Is it possible in ottawa? the cafe sounds busy and comfy

>> No.17546640
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17546640

>>17535122
based breville owner

>> No.17546878

Good morning sirs. I make the needful V60 now.

>> No.17547834

>>17545087
It sweetens and clears the cup but my world and preferences don't fall in line with sweetness and clarity.