/ck/ - Food & Cooking

>>17426127
stupid libtard revisionist photo

>>17426137
What's being revised?

70% of those new world ingredients are from mexico. no wonder it's the goat cuisine

>>17426127
New world is objectively superior
>>17426137
>AHH I CANT LOOK AT THINGS WITHOUT THINKING ABOUT POLITICS
unironically mentally ill

>>17426127
I'm going old world not living without livestock fuck that. And chickem

>>17426127
Old world is flat out superior with the only real big losses choosing it being lack of potatoes, chili, and beans.

>>17426127
Ah, yes. Diseases only came from the old world.

>>17426814
Largely, yes. At least diseases that could wipe out entire societies. There is a reason there was no ameri-pox that made its way back to Europe and devastate the European population the same way our respiratory diseases did to the natives. Largely this can be attributed to the fact that Eurasia had access to the most important thing for disease spread, useful agricultural animals.

Because of how our cities in Europe, North Africa & Asia were set up we had the influx of horrific plagues with relative frequency. Essentially they formed the perfect breeding ground for plagues by having:
>large animal populations in close proximity to humans
>a constant influx of people allowing diseases to smolder and flare
>an extremely interconnected system of commerce & trade

Diseases could jump from animal to human in a single location and spread throughout the continent in as short as a few months.

Native Americans didn't have large numbers of draft animals they lived in constant close proximity to, and didn't have cities with the same level of population density or population influx, and certainty didn't have the level of trade. The Old World had been dealing with plagues for millennia, the new world was relatively free of them.

>>17426153
Not him but it's incredibly biased to put a skull and crossbones listing "disease" going one way and not mentioning the millions of deaths in Europe and elsewhere caused by syphilis, which came from the New World. Why does their "tobacco" show a pretty leaf instead of listing lung cancer, COPD, asthma, and hypertension? The "Old world" lists 8 diseases. If you don't see the problem with that I feel bad for you.

>>17426842
Please PLEASE stop noticing things.

>>17426837
how many deaths were caused by smallpox versus syphilis and smoking?

>>17426842
>Syphilis
>new world
This has largely been disproven actually, evidence of Syphilis has been found in burial sights in SW asia dating back to the bronze age.

>>17426853
>sights

>>17426849
>Syphilis
Estimated 45 million
>Smallpox
~300 million in the 20th century alone
>smoking
Hard to find real estimates because the problem is people have been smoking since long before tobacco and it's hard to estimate specifically tobacco deaths.

The Old World however is the kind of plagues, it's how our societies were structured, we became both good and producing and surviving them.

>>17426859
yeah, I'm a dumb dumb, but here is a source:
>Forsea D, Popescu R, Popescu CM, compilers. In: Compendiu de dermatologie si venerologie/ Dermatology and Venerology Compendium. Ed. Tehnica; 1996

One of the best pieces of evidence I know is a pre-Columbian monastery in England that the monk's bones, when examined, were riddled with the signs of syphilis. Syphilis being new world is a meme. The Old World remains the kind of plagues, it was an even greater weapon against the New World than steel because the moment Spanish hogs went feral the natives were already dead.

>>17426864
Fair enough. Just pointing out that both sides suffered, and the picture ignores that. Then again, there are worse examples of culinary ignorance, such as Chinese people thinking Chilis are native to their country

>>17426874
>>17426864
>typed kind both times
I'm still not used to my new keyboard and type like a retard.

>>17426842
Dude, look around you. Its pretty obvious that diseases impacted native Americans way worse than vice-versa.

>>17426127
were there really no diseases coming from the new to old world?

>>17426842
You're not wrong, but I was just asking what was being revised. The photo is definitely biased but it's not revising anything as far as I'm concerned.

>>17426127
That's a no brainer. You're going to give up livestock for potatoes, tomatoes, and pumpkins?

>>17426921
Native Americans in reserves today probably outpopulate any tribes before Europeans arrivesld. South American civilizations were in a period of decline (famine, abandoned cities) when conquistadors arrived.

>>17426853
sw asia is europe?

>>17427268
new world has better seafood

>>17426127
is life even worth living without a typhus omelette

>>17426127
Alliums are the most important

>>17426813
Livestock was already listed

>>17427341
the british isles has just about every type of seafood you could ever want. same goes for brittany coast.

That photo is clearly from public school curriculum. Of course it will be ignorant and biased.

>>17427275
>Native Americans in reserves today probably outpopulate any tribes before Europeans arrivesld
Not even remotely.

It's really tough. I love the old world grains, though corn is good too. I love of a lot of new world plants like peanuts, peppers and tomatoes.
All in all, I'd probably pick the old world simply because having a steady supply of meat is pleasant.

Americas. I'm a proper Atlantean. I will eat corn every day.

>>17426127
why does it list disease as coming only from europe to the americas?
were there no diseases from the native americans that were given to europeans?

>>17427944
Native Americans didn't give diseases, they only killed.

>>17427944
most if not all of the listed infectious diseases were created through cross-species contact. the virus, pathogen, bacteria, etc. usually came from livestock and then mutated to affect humans, the reason there's not much transfer from the new world to old is that there were nearly no domesticated animals in the new world to create any comparable diseases.
that's the common theory.

>>17426127
I just appreciate Columbus for discovering America

>>17428070
Incorrect...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amerigo_Vespucci

>>17426842
We brought diseases because we were the superior conquerors who climbed the evolution stat tree way faster by having chad domesticated animals.
Living in close proximity to animals gave us all these diseases. If the natives really wanted to not be wiped out they should have been putting skillpoints into domestication rather than whatever they were choosing to do.

>>17426153
Cabage/mustard isn't in the east to west arrow, while beans are in the other one (there's old world beans)

>>17426127
Holy fuck bros, what did the irish even do before the potato?

>>17428128
Medieval Irish diet was mostly built around pork, dairy products, oats, barley, onions, and apples apparently.

>>17428139
So just current scotland

>>17426153
What were the diseases traded for, and what was their value?

>>17428211
Diseases were traded for vast swaths of (now uninhabited) lands. Not sure why the Natives would make this trade though.

>>17428128
starve

>>17428191
Today anon learns Ireland is a part of the British archipelago, and other than their religion are culturally indistinguishable from the UK

>>17428234
They're pretty independent culturally even from other Celtic parts of the UK. Linguistically too even if you consider the way they speak English itself instead of the indigenous Gaelic.

>>17426127
if it came down to it i'd be willing to give up potatoes and peppers in favor of brassicas and onion

>>17426874
>Natives were already dead
Is that why we have so many Mexicans shutting up American cities lol?

>>17427275
there were more than 40 million native americans before the europeans arrived

>>17426842
stfu you insufferable crybabby

>>17427863
the best bluefin is in the new world

>>17432409
stop being such a reactionary bigot chud

>>17432338
Zero evidence of that, it’s pure conjecture based on the estimation of (((sociologists))). The same people who find the remains of seven native kids in one corner of a mission’s cemetery and extrapolate that mission must’ve “systematically exterminated over 400 native children”.

>>17428272
The Irish are more close culturally to the UK than they are to any continental european country.

>>17426127
Can't we also add almost all livestock to the bottom arrow? Like horses, goats, sheep and chicken.

>>17427268
New World still has llamas, goats, and a few meat animals.
For me, it would be hard to give up coffee, but there are alternatives.

>>17428088
Also incorrect, as the Vikings and fishermen from the British Isles were regularly visiting North America starting in at least the 1100s

New world. I can just eat bison instead of cow for my beef. I need my chili peppers and potatoes.

New world.
Potatoes+Tomatoes are S tier for cuisine

>>17428139
which makes it doubly hilarious that it's Euro's and white supremacists who insist that this makes them "better", seeing as all of those crops originated in Asia and the Middle East
Europe can claim ownership of cabbage and cabbage accessories and that's about it.

>>17432869
They set foot on some arctic isles, but made no lasting impact. Knowledge of land existing across the atlantic faded from common knowledge less than 200 years after the viking era ended.
It was Columbus’ journey and later Amerigo’s journey that inspired Europeans en masse to start crossing the atlantic and properly charting the Americas.

Some New Zealander inventors made an aeroplane about 9 months before the Wright Brothers, but the knowledge of his invention never left his local town. The Wrights were the ones who brought the knowledge to international attention and they had no idea the Kiwi invention existed, so they deserve the credit.

All the good food came from the New World, Africa, and Asia. Seethe, Europoors.

>>17432895
Despite shitting on Native Americans for not domesticating animals (which is disingenuous because they actually did domesticate many animals), I struggle to think of a single animal domesticated by Europeans.
Cows, chickens, pigs, horses, even donkeys, all were domesticated outside Europe and brought there by traders from the Middle East.
Maybe Greece managed to domesticate something? It seems more likely that domesticated animals reached Greece from the Middle East though.

>>17432914
Cows, horses, dogs, and pigs were all domesticated in europe independently of other regions domesticating them. All three of those animals were domesticated from animals native to europe.

Chickens come from asia because junglefowl are native to asia, and donkeys come from the arab world because the wild ass is native only to africa and the middle east.

>>17432780
They are not. They brought Catholicism to the mainland.

>>17432878
Cacao is a Dutch invention, the Italians discovered that tomatoes aren't poisonous

>>17432914
Wolves. We still do this today - check out the Czechoslovak wolfdog.

>>17433037
>the Italians discovered that tomatoes aren't poisonous
You don't actually believe this do you

>>17426890
maybe your typing sucks but what you wrote in terms of content was very informative and well explained, gj

>>17432878
so this is what goes on in the mind of the anti-racist
nothing besides a funny joke about the irish was mentioned but he finds a way to turn this around and bash white people, somehow
tell me, are white nationalists in the room with you right now, anon?

>>17426813
>>17427844

>>17426127
This picture ignores the massive technological leap we gave the the natives. they went from not having the wheel, metallurgy,high literacy rates nor surgery to becoming the most rapidly developing part of the world. In this world might makes right and the man with the most advanced arsenal wins.

>>17426813
If we could only travel back in time to warn them what will happen if they don't cooperate with the Europeans.

>>17433053
He also thinks europe is catholic because of ireland. He’s a retard and probably a plastic paddy as well

ITT: racism

>>17433266
Welcome to 4chan, where third world brown people larp as neonazis, and first world trust fund white trannies larp as the working class.

>>17426127
I would severely miss potatoes but i would choose old world
also if diseases where that much of a factor: if those indian niggers just had founded more overpopulated civilizations, they would have had their own diseases to wipe our settlers out as well. Also the image of the Catholic Warrior slaying blood sacrificing jungle niggers speaks for itself

>>17426697
new world has buffalo, basically just tastier cows.

>>17426886
>Just pointing out that both sides suffered
you;re not entirely wrong, but the natives just wanted to do their own thing which seemed to be working well enough for them. the west was after conquest, and very deliberately fucked over the natives in as many ways as possible. for the most part the east to west diseases were incidental, but there were instances of pox blankets being traded

>>17433802
The old world also had buffalo, with records dating back to the Ancient Greeks, but they were overhunted and finally went extinct in most of Eurasia back in the 19th century. They're still around in some remote regions and southeast Asia, as well as examples in captivity.

>>17433828
also, equating syphilis with 500 years of systemic backstabbing, genocide and censure is not really a fair comparison

>>17433862
thats pretty cool. animal migration, tectonic plate and continent movement, and ice age bullshit all affecting what kind of animals are where and other evolutionary shit is always interesting

Is this a /pol/ thread?

>deh JAHHOZ made up disease propaganda we dindu nuffins

What a bunch of sensitive, reactionary fags you are.

>>17433951
its actually a fairly interesting topic, I think a /pol/tard just happened to shit it up the way they do

>>17433973
Is this poster: >>17433970 a /pol/tard? Because he's shitting up the thread and contributing nothing but retardation.

>>17426921
it's obvious their great great great great great great great great grandkids are in a worse spot than those of the Europeans. I'd dispute any claim that that is a bad thing though, I'm quite comfy as an American.

>>17433992
It's a bad thread. No one is talking about food just disease transmission and whether it was intentional or not.

>>17433992
yes, he is.
t. guy you were replying to

>>17426127
>Coffee bean
Welp I can't live without that.

>>17434019
No I'm not, you faggot.

>>17433828
>pox blankets
thats a myth

>Whooping Cough
What the fuck is that lmao

>>17427255
What's being revised is the basic fact that caucasians are the greatest race ever and have improved the world immeasurably.

>>17434044
Covid-1519

>>17426842
>syphilis
That's their own fault, shouldn't have been rapists and whores. Go with God

>>17434041
huh, a brief google search lends you credibility. but my other points still stand

>>17428096
Shut up Jared

>>17434044
Some kind of pneumonia or some shit. It's painful to get.

>>17434039
I get that the opposite end of the /pol/tard spectrum came in first being retarded, but the proper reaction is to report and ignore. engaging is to also become a /pol/tard.

>>17434080
You sound like a try hard moron.

>>17434093
trying hard to do what, exactly? the third poster was correct in saying
>he's shitting up the thread and contributing nothing but retardation.

>>17434108
It's a retarded thread, though. Nearly everything being discussed is about intentional/unintentional disease transmission instead food. Nothing I posted would come off as being political unless you're one of the sensitive people I'm mocking.

>>17434066
>other points
>the natives were just doin their own thing man
>whitey was just after conquest
>the natives were like like, a homogeneous group and all they did was like chill and smoke weed maaan
>just forget about all the scalpings and torture and stuff
clean your brain of this propaganda. you regurgitated the lie about pox blankets and everything else you said was biased. you fell for biased cry baby narratives and believed them with with blind faith.

>>17426942
Of course there were diseases that went both ways. The Aztecs had problems with plagues before the arrival of the Spanish. There big one was a hemorrhaging virus similar to Hantavirus and with the same vector of rodents. The big reason our diseases hit them so much harder is that ours were bred from us keeping massive amounts of animals around as food. We had been living with them much longer and usually in pretty filthy conditions compared to those found in the Americas. We developed immunities or died. We had higher populations overall which lead to wider spread. Outside of the meso-american empires populations were just way to wide spread apart for diseases to travel. It's hard to tell what diseases were here first since skeletal testing can only provide so much evidence but there definitely was native diseases.

>>17429518
There are native onions in the Americas, they aren't as large but with modern tech a couple years of genetic modification would get you there.

>>17434134
You talk like any of that justifies it
CAPTCHA: YGARY

>>17434134
they can have their own wars and still not deserve genocide. euros had wars constantly, if you were asian, would you have supported genociding the europeans if you had the technological advantage over them?

>>17432890
L'Anse aux Meadows National Historic Site is below the arctic circle. Why would you lie?

>>17433862
Moose, caribou, and grizzlies too. Just called them elk/reindeer/brown bears. If you go back far enough, they had equivalents to cougars and coyotes too.

>>17433879
So you’re saying different races deserve their own ethnic homelands and the right to self-determination?

>>17434134
You have a really poor understanding of History in regards to the American Continents. There is factual evidence of intentional genocide by smallpox. And of course there were multiple Empires, many of which had fell by the time of Spanish arrival. Humans are humans, we do shitty things and awesome things and the awesome things don't excuse the shitty things. It's important to recognize where we have been truthfully, both the good and the bad.

>>17426921
If European diseases were as bad as they’re said to have been, how have any red indians survived?

>>17434149
>god damn it! you can't settle here whitey! sure you could build a town with hundred of people in it but we need these 200 miles of land for us five chikopakatada tribesmen to hunt buffalo and kill the poolatomo tribe! fuck off we're full!
i bet if some obscure natives tribe no one knows about took over the continent instead of europeans they wouldnt have some big brained scholars talking about how horrible a thing it was

>>17434171
Not him but yet, always did.

>>17434161
I’m using ‘arctic’ colloquially. Technically speaking, only a small portion of Alaska is in the arctic circle. But if I said “Alaska is in the arctic”, very few people would be confused by that. The northern tip of Newfoundland (where L'Anse aux Meadows is), is roughly on the same latitude as Alaska.

>>17434180
I can smell the retardation and double standards. When are you going to realise both groups can be good and bad, stop thinking in black and white

>>17434178
hundreds of years go by and only one bastard in history thought of weaponizing smallpox
https://www.history.com/.amp/news/colonists-native-americans-smallpox-blankets
im sorry that the native guy you saw on tiktok or youtube telling you all this inane shit that you thought was really smart was lying. its hard to accept.

>>17434181
What a far right ultranationalist neonazi racist stance to have.

>>17434165
I'm aware of most of these but what the hell was your coyote equivalent? I can't think of a similar canid that filled that role in europe

>>17434200
Yes

>>17434201
Eurasian/golden Jackal.

>>17426127
and also civilization :D

>>17434198
>men over a century before the creation of germ theory and over a century before medicine even knew what smallpox was somehow knew that viruses spread not by miasma and misaligned humours but rather by contamination of dirty objects
Hmm..

>>17434194
this. this post >>17434171 was conveniently just over a minute before the one you replied to. defending the colonialism while comparing it to their own beliefs "ironically" while failing to see the double standard and painting it as completely black and white

>>17434201
>>17434209
Coyotes fall under the category of wolf-like canids, of which there are many including the golden jackal, which is more closely related to the American coyote than it is to African jackals.

>>17426874
>trusting gypsies
hey alright pal

>>17434221
Don't have to have germ theory to recognise that the blankets made people sick, Whatever the mechanism they thought it was

>>17434156
for a "genocide" theres a fair bit of natives still left around, and due to interbreeding there are traces of natives found in some white people
some genocide huh, or are you just going to point to some random massacre that happened during some random war no one knows about and say look look its a genocide!

>>17434221
>this retard can't determine cause and effect without underlying theories to explain them

>>17434198
>https://www.history.com/.amp/news/colonists-native-americans-smallpox-blankets
Ah I see you really are retarded. I'd list dates, campaigns and actual historical documentations but you would rather get your information from the cable television channel that tries to convince people that aliens built the pyramids. And in your own "article" it contradicts what you say by saying that it happened "at least once" based on a single source. Meaning that it happened at least once, which is once too many. Not to mention originally you tried to claim it never happened. So you've destroyed your argument completely by shifting the narrative within minutes.
Sorry you feel guilty about coming from assholes or whatever but get over it. Humanity has done shitty things and no one alive today is alive because their ancestors went around blowing sunshine and rainbows up everyones ass. Humanity made hard choices to be where we are today and we haven't reached enlightenment yet, I mean you still exist so we can't. And I'd like nothing more than to punch your teeth in so I certainly haven't

>>17434251
Bruh there's not even a hook on that one

>>17434209
fuck I should have known it was the golden jackal. Not sure why I put a brain block on it

>>17434251
you can commit genocide without entirely wiping them off the face of the earth. the definition doesnt include their extinction, whether or not it was attempted

This thread is off topic

>>17434254
nice nitpicking and rageposting and just judging from the amount of words while saying nothing of real value id judge that youre a frail pussy whod break their hand on my teeth if they tried to punch my teeth you bitch

>>17434248
In the 18th century, the prevailing notion was that diseases travelled through the air, and infected people whose humours were imbalanced. The humours being wet, dry, cold, and warm. This was the common scientific consensus in Europe for over a thousand years, until the mid 19th century. I doubt they would’ve even considered the blankets as potential disease vectors. Instead, they probably would’ve believed the air in the room that contained the ill person was the cause.

>>17434253
>this retard can’t set aside his 21st century knowledge and think from the perspective of an 18th century peasant
Even crows understand the concept of ‘theory of mind’, yet you can’t. How does it feel to be dumber than a bird?

>>17434314
>people in the past were dumber
just stop

>>17434044
Bacterial infection caused by Bordetella pertussis, basically harmless but adults and older children but kills around 1 in 200 newborns it infects if untreated. Causes an illness pretty similar to common cold expect afterwards you will spend couple months coughing your lungs out and, if you are a newborn, there is a chance that you just randomly stop breathing.

>>17434314
I bet all the peasants were just clamoring to go hang out with all the victims of the black plague, not a care in sight

>>17434325
A necessary evil

>>17434317
More ignorant* there’s a difference.

>>17434330
Nope. Because the consensus was that illness was transmitted by air, and was caused by evil thoughts/physical weakness.

>>17426663
Why the fuck else would diseases be added to a trade graphic.

>>17434445
>trade graphic

>>17428096
This desu, and we also knew enough about diseased back then to intentionally lace blankets with smallpox, isn't that crazy?

>>17426127
Old world. I don't give a whooping diphtheria.

>>17433016
tfw no wild arab ass

wtf turkeys didn't come from turkey? didn't christian columbus bring turkeys with him?

>>17434774
Turkey's were called turkeys because they resembled the guinea fowls which were famously traded by the Turks.

>>17434426
>Blankets can't trap air and smells

>>17426127
Anyone know how they got the honey bees here? Did they convert space into a greenhouse for feeding them or just ship an apiary and hope for the best for bees and crew?

>>17435442
Basically anyway they could. Straw skeps were common, but wood boxes, sealed pottery. Basically anything they could find.
Also most of the time they would kill all the bees at the end of the summer. Overwintering bees came a bit later.

>>17435442
you're a little kid you shouldn't be on 4chan

>>17426853
Wrong.

>>17435465
That's not an amswer

>>17434044
Very contagious bacterial disease that has a non negligible fatality and serious complication rate for infants, but is pretty harmless to older children and adults. Adults, even vaccinated, can carry it thinking it's a mild cold or even not notice they have it.

Fun fact, my dad is a volunteer firefighter and had to present proof of covid vaccination but not of whooping cough vaccination :^)

>>17427275
>Native Americans in reserves today probably outpopulate any tribes before Europeans arrivesld.
This is without question the single stupidest take I have read in my fourteen years on this website. Read a fucking book dipshit.

>>17434445

Because they brought disease?

>>17428096

> Be European
> literally throw buckets of shit into the street and eat the assholes of your garbage disposal animals ground and cooked in it's own intestines
>Hey why's my face oozing?

Super duper civilized

>>17432914
Rabbits originated in the Spanish peninsula and were domesticated by Europeans

According to wikipedia, dogs and various honey bees were domesticated in Europe too. That seems to be basically be it though.

>>17436448
I don't know what to tell you, bro. The results speak for themselves; Europeans literally conquered the entire world and only gave it up because they started feeling guilty for winning so hard.

>>17437352
Ukrainians domesticated horses, Russians domesticated foxes

>>17426874
The inhabitants of today’s Italy, Germany and United Kingdom named syphilis ‘the French disease’, the French named it ‘the Neapolitan disease’, the Russians assigned the name of ‘Polish disease’, the Polish called it ‘the German disease’, The Danish, the Portuguese and the inhabitants of Northern Africa named it ‘the Spanish/Castilian disease’ and the Turks coined the term ‘Christian disease’. Moreover, in Northern India, the Muslims blamed the Hindu for the outbreak of the affliction. However, the Hindu blamed the Muslims and in the end everyone blamed the Europeans.

>>17433104
White nationalists are not the same as white people. Thanks for getting triggered

>>17434251
Genocide doesn't mean you kill every last member of a particular people.

>>17427844
that only covers fat people

>>17426842
And I think you’re a retarded ass faggot for reading too far into it.
Clearly it’s a list of “valuable exports”.
Disease was indeed a valuable export because it cleared up a lot of land that settlers would have otherwise had to fight for.
Just because you can’t see why it was valuable/useful doesn’t mean it had no value.

>>17434156
>genocide
Please, read a book and not an editorial written by a blue haired guilty white who graduated with a journalism degree in 2020. Look at the situations when the Europeans arrived

Aztecs
>neighboring tribes hate them because they’re bloodthirsty warlords who demand tribute and capture civilians for sacrifice
>Spanish arrive
>wtf these people need Jesus they’re cutting out people’s hearts
>nice they also have gold
>neighboring tribes help the Spanish overthrow the psycho blood cult
>conquistadors impregnate some women on their way out with gold (spoils of war)

Trail of Tears
>American settlers and natives in the southeast form multitude of treaties for both sides benefits
>groups of natives keep breaking the treaties, raiding settlements and kidnapping women
>some of the native settlements are sitting on gold they don’t know what to do with, nice
>ok we’ll just move all these people to fertile lands elsewhere so we can all fuck off from each other
>way more complicated and expensive than expected
>lasts a decade longer and costs orders of magnitude more than expected
>whoops lol bad idea oh well got a civil war brewing

Disease
>germ theory is hundreds of years away
>average person still thinks flower petals and bloodletting prevents Black Plague
>damn those reds are dropping like flies
>that sucks

The native Americans weren’t genocided, they were conquered. They put up quite a fight considering the circumstances but to act like they were poor blameless victims (noble savage myth, you racist) and the evil whites ruined everything is disingenuous and ignorant. Again, read a book, I’d suggest starting with the dictionary and looking up “genocide.”