/ck/ - Food & Cooking

What?

>>16904728
>imagine imagining
Grade A faggot right here. Positively flaming.

>>16904728
Don't make me post the chad mongols virgin jurchen screencaps

>>16904728
grains are just cheap calories. That's all they've ever been good for.

inb4 that reatarded ketofag posts his 50 fucking retarded ketomemes

I don't understand this thread. What is this supposed to mean?

>>16904728
Essential macronutrients = oxygen , water , proteins and fats .

>>16904728
imagine eating lectins lmao

>>16904762
do it anyway

>>16904822
That doesn't mean carbs are inherently bad.

>>16904728
All I know is that the only times I've ever been able to lose at least 10lb and keep it off was by not eating pasta, bread, and potatoes. And I always gain the weight back eventually when I start eating them again.

I gained 50lb in 2020 b/c I wasn't going in public and figured it wouldn't matter if I ate whatever I wanted.

>>16904796
>sustaining the human race
all theyve been good for..

>>16904822
>proteins and fats
No, only certain amino acids and specific fats (namely short-chain polyunsaturated)

>>16904860
Midget wheat has proteins in it that humanity has never before consumed . It doesn’t even have the same number of chromosomes as the wheat our ancestors ate . Modern sugar consumption is by far the most radical dietary change in human history .

>>16904871
grains have only been a large portion of the human diet for the past 10 thousand years or so the other 20 million we were mostly eating meat, fish, and some seasonal fruit

>>16904875
I understand not all . I also understand many carbs are very healthy , such as broccoli , tomatoes , etc .

>>16904875
theres no such thing as an essential dietary carbohydrate

>>16904923
Or an "essential protein" and the only essential fats are certain unsaturated ones found in vegetables and seeds

>>16904928
you have to eat protein to get essential amino acids

>>16904928
>and the only essential fats
are best sourced (most bioavailable) in fish/animal foods

>>16904928
There are proteins we must have that our bodies can’t make

How do you guys still don't know the difference between factory level carbs and wholegrain, let alone spontaneous fermentation?

15 years ago this used to be an online game. Nowadays you're genuinely retarded. What gives?

>>16904937
"To maintain a given level of EPA + DHA, the dietary ALA required is 12.5, 33.5, 8.3 and 9.1 times higher than the dietary EPA + DHA for liver, heart, brain and serum respectively. Hence the efficacy of precursor ALA is lower compared to preformed EPA + DHA in elevating serum and tissue long chain n-3 PUFA levels."
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/20734237/
tldr eat fish for your DHA if you can

>>16904933
>>16904939
Not necessarily proteins, specific amino acids
>>16904937
>>16904945
EPA and DHA aren't essential nutrients. ALA is the only essential omega-3, and LA is essential omega-6

>>16904943
>>16904951
>EPA and DHA aren't essential nutrients.
yes they are thats why your body has to convert the ALA to EPA but it is pretty shit at doing it

>>16904902
>Midget wheat has proteins in it that humanity has never before consumed . It doesn’t even have the same number of chromosomes as the wheat our ancestors ate .
That doesn't have anything to do with what I said. I'm only saying that carbs not being essential doesn't mean that they're inherently bad.

>Modern sugar consumption is by far the most radical dietary change in human history .
Maybe not. Some hunter-gatherers have been seen eating 50g of sugar from honey every day, and they'll say it's their favorite food. Some have been seen eating up to 250g in a single day. That's above what is considered the healthy limit in modern countries, but it doesn't seem like they really have any health issues from it. There's also evidence of hunter-gatherers making bread from wild grains and tubers long before humans even started farming.

Overall consuming a lot of processed food, not exercising much, not sleeping enough, smoking and drinking a lot, using all kinds of pills, etc. are all huge changes that are contributing heavily to the poorer health of the average person. You can't blame it on one thing, especially something that seems like it's naturally part of the human diet.

i await the tasty vegan copes incoming

>>16904954
>yes they are thats why your body has to convert the ALA to EPA
Which makes it non-essential. The term means a nutrient you can't synthesize.

>>16904961
see >>16904945 you have to eat 10-30x more ALA to get a given amount of EPA just eat some fish for christs sake

>>16904961
>Which makes it non-essential.
it is essential but you can either eat it directly or try to get it from an inferior source like a retard

>>16904967
Doesn't matter, it's non-essential by definition.

>>16904973
ok so youre a retard got it

>>16904972
That's not what essential means in this context, otherwise you could go back and say carbs are essential
>>16904981
I'm not the one who started a conversation about essential nutrients without even knowing what the term means

fuck you guys, I like pasta

>>16904983
>redefine words to fit my preconceptions
>???
>profit

>>16904983
you have to eat it or you can eat a shitty precursor but its essential to get it from an exogenous source

>>16904992
You used an already defined term and then went crosseyed when you realized it could be applied to things other than the exact point you wanted to make

>>16904996
>you have to eat it or you can eat a shitty precursor
>but its essential
The precursor is an essential nutrient, the preformed version is not. You didn't do much research on this.

>>16905003
whatever dude have fun eating pounds of flax seed or you know just eat a single tin of fish

>>16904728
Has nothing to do with masculinity. Just don't eat so many carbs and eat more protein homie.

>>16905008
>eat more protein
more protein and fat

>>16905005
Okay, and have fun eating pounds of chicken to synthesize carbs to avoid becoming ketogenic because you won't just have a little bowl of oatmeal

>>16905012
>to synthesize carbs
you dont need more than few grams of glucose in your blood and that doesnt necessitate eating "pounds of chicken" retard

>>16904957
The average American eats 71 grams of ADDED sugar per day .

>>16905021
You do if you don't want to enter the diseased state of ketosis, caused by your body not having adequate carbohydrates to be able to burn fat efficiently

>>16905012
>to avoid becoming ketogenic
why would you need to avoid this its a perfectly natural state and will happen after prolonged exercise even if you eat a higher carb diet. im guessing you dont know the difference between nutritional or post exercise ketosis or ketoacidosis

>>16905027
>retard falls for industry propaganda

>>16905027
>not having adequate carbohydrates to be able to burn fat efficiently
its actually the opposite your fat oxidation is impaired by a high carb diet
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6873122/

>>16905029
>why would you need to avoid this its a perfectly natural state
Because it's a disease, hence the "osis" in the name. Hey, now you've learned two things in this thread.

>>16905035
It’s funny because the corporations hate us as much as the government does .

>>16905045
>t. i dont know the difference between ketosis and ketoacidosis

>>16904869
eh that's kind of like losing weight by cutting off soda from your diet then getting it back because you drank it again. without a proper exercise routine and watch of your caloric intake, that temporary weight loss will be just that, temporary.

>>16904914
Are you trying to imply that humans haven't changed significantly in the past 20 million years to the point where they can have the same diet?

>>16904959
no need to cope, been doing the vegan diet for roughly 8 years now and i've never been in better health or shape in my entire life.

>>16905042
You're misreading this paper. Fat oxidation was higher on the high fat diet because it dietary fat was used for energy, while on the higher carb diet dietary carbs were used. It'd be like saying fat impairs carb oxidation. Whatever you're using for energy is going to be oxidized.

Ketosis is caused by disruption of the krebs cycle, which relies on carbs in order to process fats. Inability to do this effectively causes a buildup of ketones, waste products, that lead to the state of ketosis if your body isn't able to expell them quickly enough (through your urine or even breath)
>>16905056
Ketosis is a disease, ketoacidosis is an acute form of the disease. By definition, both are abnormal.

>CARBS BAD
God I am looking forward to when this wank is debunked in 9 years and I don't have to hear morons shouting it literally every time food is mentioned in conversation.

>>16905075
the implication is we havent changed enough in the past 10,000 years or so to adapt to a high carb diet without significant consequences

>>16905079
>Ketosis is a disease that reverse diabetes
youre so assblasted im amazed you can speak without choking on your own shit

>>16905094
You're right, you sound very calm and rational and I'm an unhinged lunatic

>>16905079
>Fat oxidation was higher on the high fat diet because it dietary fat was used for energy,
>>16905027
>y your body not having adequate carbohydrates to be able to burn fat efficiently
youve probably contradicted yourself a half dozen times and are so stupid havent even realized it

>>16905078
Arent you supposed to say you eat a plant based diet? Vegans get shitty when you call their cult a diet.

>>16905098
>starting to deflect because has no argument
as expected

>>16905078
>removes junk food and soda from diet
>feels better
>attributes it to the anemic diet
absolutely gold

>>16905105
who cares, there's a lot about vegans i disagree with, but the diet worked for me.

>>16905113
i'm lactose intolerant and my body wasn't able to digest meats properly. it's possible without a vegan diet, but i had to do what i had to do and i like it.

>>16905120
okay just hope you supplement your deficient diet

>>16905100
Even in that study, blood ketones were higher on the low carb diet than the high carb diet

>>16905123
i don't and i'm better than i used to be when i ate meat and dairy. i think that is just a fear mongering tactic or maybe it's necessary for some but not for me.

>>16905124
as one would expect. and no ketones in the range of 1-2 during exercise are not going to kill you

>>16905127
have you had your vit D or iron levels tested? i would bet money youre deficient

>>16904869
Did you try counting calories? Carbs don’t magically make or keep you fat dude. It’s unbelievable how many of you fake science dipshits believe bodies are magic and you can eat 15 steaks a day as long as you don’t have 1 grain of rice.

>>16905128
>as one would expect
Exactly, as a result of inefficient fat breakdown

>>16905135
haven't been to the doctor in 4 years and once more, i've never felt better in my life. i actually have the energy to keep an exercise routine and emotionally and physically i'm way better than were i used to be. again, i'm not saying this is only possible as a vegan, but i'll trust experience over anything anyone else has to say.

>>16905140
>as a result of inefficient fat breakdown
the people eating low carb had about double fat oxidation rates not sure what you mean by "inefficient" when that is the case

>>16905140
"Carbohydrate oxidation provided 94% of energy on the HCLF diet, but only 65% on the LCHF diet. 5KTT performance at ~82%VO2max was independent of the runners’ habitual diet. The HCLF diet offered no advantage over a diet with a high-fat content."

no difference for performance and this study is quite short. i could cite others where you get better performance on low carb but im sure youll explain that away with some shitty nonexistent logic

>>16905145
what other foods did you cut out after becoming vegan? did you cut out soda and alchohol?

>>16905145
okay if it seems to work for you then keep at it but i would still suggest checking your vit D, iron, and b12 and supplementing if neccesary

>>16905154
They were eating 3x more fat.
>not sure what you mean by "inefficient" when that is the case
Up to 6x higher ketones in the blood, ketones being waste products that are minimal during normal fat burning. As you'll no doubt remember from your Phd medical biology courses, "fats burn in the flame of carbohydrate"
https://books.google.com/books?id=hrdRROeCI9IC&pg=PA264#v=onepage&q&f=false

>>16905167
yea, soda, alcohol, and just general bad eating habits. i do take it easier now, in which i tend to make desserts for myself every once in a while, but i'm way more restrictive and cautious in regards to what i eat. before i used to just mindlessly eat garbage without consideration in regards to the impact it had on my body. no wonder i was so depressed as a teenager. i feel like my poor diet really impacted those years in my life.

>>16905168
if i ever get to the point where things start feeling off and there's something clearly wrong, i won't hesitate. i know family members who're anemic and i wouldn't recommend the diet i follow to them.

>>16905163
You're making brand new arguments now and just as you misunderstood the phrase essential, you now misunderstand the phrase efficient. To prove the point, explain to me how and why the state of ketosis occurs. And no, "magic" is not an answer.

>>16905192
Do you ever think that maybe your improved health has more to do with cutting out junk food as opposed to just cutting our animal products?

>>16905198
most definitely, but i'm being genuine when i said i'm lactose intolerant and my body can't digest meat properly. it wasn't just the diet either, i learned to be more concerned about the things that entered my body outside of foods. cutting out the dairy was pretty easy, but meat was hard. i had to though and looking back it was probably for the best in regards to my own life.

>>16905196
>explain to me how and why the state of ketosis occurs.
you can define it physiologically as B-OHB levels above ~0.5mM. it rises in response to to reduced insulin secretion and i dont need to tell you what primarily stimulates insulin (yes protein does a bit but not as much) this allows your bodys fuel to be primarily be met by fat either directly as fatty acids or indirectly as ketone bodies made from fat. im done now go read a book not written by pharma cucked doctors for once in your live and you would know all this

>>16905214
I didn't ask for a definition, I asked why and how ketosis occurs.
>this allows your bodys fuel to be primarily be met by fat either directly as fatty acids or indirectly as ketone bodies made from fat.
You're getting closer to an answer. Where do ketone bodies come from?

>>16905214
>it rises in response to to reduced insulin secretion
>indirectly as ketone bodies made from fat.
>>16905218
youre boring me

>>16905226
Ketone bodies just spontaneously pop up for no reason?

>>16905233
the answer is stronlgy implied in the post as the only macronutrient not mentioned. i wont capitulate to your feigned ignorance

>>16904869
>I have no self control and just stuff my face so therefore carbs bad

>>16905239
theres a few million normal weight type 2 diabetics who would like a word with you

>>16905235
I just want you to explain how ketones come about, what they are, and what prevents their formation.

>>16905244
>how ketones come about
in response to negative insulin stimulus as i said. the rest is clear youre just being an ass. what in the diet most stimulates insulin>?

>>16905247
obviously exercise or fasting can have a similar effect but i also mentioned that before and it was ignored

>>16905247
>in response to negative insulin stimulus
Source lack of insulin as the direct reason for ketone production. Keep in mind I've already proved otherwise >>16905187

>>16904728
>beating your chest because you can't accept you are a bootlicker

>>16905252
>I've already proved otherwise
no you havent and im not clicking your shitty google link nigger

>>16905242

Type II diabetes is caused by fat clogging the cells disallowing them from accepting insulin thus causing insulin resistance.

>>16905257
are you actually this stupid or is this a bait? if there is any truth to this you have got a lot of explaining to do...

>>16905255
Okay, google the krebs cycle and spend some time reading

>>16905261
google something you learned in high school biology no thanks

>>16905261
ketone bodies are homeostatically regulated and go out of control only when there is no insulin to regulate hence why ketoacidosis only occurs in type 1 diabetics or type 2s who are so advanced their pancreas begins to give out

>>16905261
"The important rate-limiting steps in ketone metabolism include hormone-sensitive lipase (HSL), acetyl CoA carboxylase, succinyl CoA-oxoacid transferase (SCOT), and HMG CoA synthase. HSL and HMG CoA synthase are INHIBITED BY INSULIN and stimulated by glucagon."
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK554523/

now im gonna go have lunch and rail your mother after with my smelly keto cock

>>16905269
Does ketosis itself only occur in diabetics then? Ketosis is a state of uncontrolled ketone production leading to their buildup to the point where you can measure them in your urine. It's not lack of insulin that causes that, it's lack of carbohydrate necessary to prevent their buildup by allowing fats to break without so much waste being produced

>>16905285
>Ketosis is a state of uncontrolled ketone production
no its not it will not go above 1-2 if you have insulin youre so dense im actually in disbelief

>>16905285
>It's not lack of insulin that causes that, it's lack of carbohydrate necessary
lack of insulin caused by low carbohydrate intake by diet, fasting, or using it up during exercise. read >>16905279 and stop speaking to me

>>16905279
That's the context of some ketone production but doesn't explain the cause of it, which is a biochemical process. Your thinking is
>insulin is low
>ketones go POOF and exist suddenly with no observable explanation
What creates a ketone?

>>16905306
you didnt read the link in >>16905279 so i have nothing more to say

>>16904871
It's slave food.

>>16905289
If it wasn't, it wouldn't be ketosis and you wouldn't have ketones draining into your bladder the same way glucose does for diabetics

>>16905319
define uncontrolled

>>16905211
Im always curious about the increase in lactose intolerance in recent years. I understand there are some cultures like Chinese, koreans, japanese, and some africans that never ate any dairy in their culture, but there are also groups of people with supposed high percentages of lactose intolerance like mongolians who still consume massive quantities of dairy in the form of cheese and fermented dairy like kumis/airag.

I also think a lot about modern conventional dairy, usually coming from A1 breeds of cattle like holstiens and how pasturization kills enzymes like lactase.

Being unable to digest meat properly also makes me wonder if that also attributes to consolidated industrial agriculture. Finishing a cow on gmo grain as opposed to organic grass could have an impact on ones digestion. I actually don't eat any supermarket meat anymore due to my own lifestyle changes, and I find the meat I do acquire to be seemingly far more digestible than the slop you'd get at supermarkets or god forbid fast food (which can have retired, overworked, over medicated consolidated dairy cow in their meat).

>>16905310
I'll be a nice guy and answer my question for you with an explanation that you should be able to understand

https://drbillsukala.com/fat-burns-carbohydrate-flame/

>>16905319
it is controlled it wont go out of a specific range as long as you have some insulin as ive said 3 times now. the urine and breath ketone excretion will also decrease once you are sufficiently adapted. this is all well documented youre just ignorant

>>16905338
you still didnt read the link i posted it literally answers your question on "hurr but how are ketones made"

>>16904728
I haven't eaten wheat in a month (doing low FODMAP) and I haven't felt any more masculine nor have my lifts gone up faster than they were going up before. In fact, I feel worse if anything.

>>16904822
>RIP
>Never touched a donut his life
>Died tragically of liver disease at age 38

>>16905338
"The acylcarnitine is carried through the mitochondrial matrix by a transporter protein called carnitine/acylcarnitine translocase. At the inner mitochondrial membrane, the acylcarnitine molecule is converted back to acyl CoA and carnitine by CPT 2.

Ketone synthesis in the liver produces acetoacetate and beta-hydroxybutyrate from two acetyl CoA molecules. This process begins in the mitochondria of the liver..."

>>16905338
is this supposed to be a bad thing?
"Ketogenic diets... and there is evidence that they provide sustained health benefits in some people"

>>16904733
You took the words right out of my mouth.

At least arbs that are fortified with vitamin arent a total write off

>>16905351
>arbs that are fortified with vitamin arent a total write off
no but they still spike blood sugar which can be a problem for diabetics and pre diabetics which is now the majority of the US (per CDC data) which is actually an underestimation of the prevalence

>>16905328
I hear you on that, I used to love cheese too, and would eat it almost every day. Sometimes a lot, sometimes a little, but it was close to every day. I don't doubt for a second that this industrialized meat industry wreaks havoc on the quality of meat it produces, especially the low quality food they feed to these animals goes into the meat that people eat. This isn't even to get into the extreme antibiotics and all that they bump these animals with to get the most out of them, all of that is going into the meat people consume. So for me I guess it's easier to avoid that since I can't even eat meat anymore. Living in a city it'd be extremely hard finding affordable, quality meat as like you have mentioned, or even dairy too. So it all worked out for the best in my specific case I guess.

>>16905366
> Living in a city it'd be extremely hard finding affordable, quality meat as like you have mentioned, or even dairy too.

Dairy might be a challenge to find affordably (I found an Amish place when I lived in Chicago that sold very high quality milk with the animals feed rations right on the bottle) but with a chest freezer and wholesale meat you can get several years worth of meat from a good cow in just a single purchase. A whole cow of an extremely high quality is around 2000 dollars, which sounds like a lot but considering when I lived in the city I would spend upwards of 700 dollars a month on high quality food it's actually a bargain, since that would ultimately be several years worth of meat. A pig will be cheaper, even of a very high quality, but it will also be less meat.

A great place to start is eatwild.com. They also have a good source of produce, seeing as you're a vegan. There are a lot of issues with consolidated industrial crop production, I'm sure you're also aware of that.

>>16905340
Your link talks about when ketone production increases, not how it does
>>16905344
https://www.sciencedirect.com/topics/agricultural-and-biological-sciences/ketone-bodies
>glucose does not enter the cells in adequate amounts, and production of pyruvate by glycolysis is decreased. The activity of the citric acid cycle is therefore diminished, resulting in decreased utilization of acetyl-CoA. The net effect of increased production and decreased utilization of acetyl-CoA is an increase in the concentration of acetyl-CoA, which is the precursor of ketone body synthesis.
>One of the beliefs regarding the pathophysiology of DKA had been that individuals that develop DKA have zero or undetectable endogenous insulin. However, in a study that included seven dogs with DKA, five had detectable endogenous serum insulin concentrations, and two of these dogs had endogenous serum insulin concentration within the normal range.3
Insulin isn't the factor, it's only correlated. It's lack of glucose that inhibits normal metabolism involving the krebs cycle, which would normally lead to a regulated and minimal ketone level, into a state of unregulated production where your body tries to prevent ketoacidosis from occuring by pissing out the excess or exhaling it through the lungs

>>16905423
>Your link talks about when ketone production increases, not how it does
You clearly still didnt read it

>>16905341
no shit you absolute retard
there's a reaosn why no lifter is a keto autist
you need carbs for lifting
stop listening to mongoloids on a dolphin tuna promotional website and do your own reserch

>>16905402
>eatwild.com
This is awesome, thanks for sharing

>>16905082
Works on my machine

>>16905328
>Im always curious about the increase in lactose intolerance in recent years.
It could partially be due to milk not being regularly consumed and the gut flora not adapting to it. I didn't have any digestive issues when drinking milk but had to give it up for a while to see if it was causing a skin problem. When I started drinking milk again I got diarrhea. I had to only drink tiny amounts at first then slowly have more and more, and could then drink a quart at one time with no problems after a while. Other people I've talked to have gone through something similar.

>but there are also groups of people with supposed high percentages of lactose intolerance like mongolians who still consume massive quantities of dairy in the form of cheese and fermented dairy like kumis/airag.
I recently read that you can be lactose intolerant but not show any symptoms. So you might not have the genes to properly digest lactose but you don't have any digestive issues so you still benefit from everything else it has. Made me wonder if there's some kind of factor that made digesting lactose more valuable to certain people which is why they developed genes for it while others didn't. Like the Mongolians had a heavy meat and dairy diet but were still close to China and might've been trading with them for grains? While Northern Europe was more isolated and didn't have another good source of carbs other than lactose.

>>16905094
That is true, my father used keto to fix his diabetes.

>>16905972
He could eat carbs like a normal person again afterwards?

>>16905996
no but you could get off your diabetes meds and avoid the long term complications like blindness, renal failure, and getting your fucking limbs chopped off

>>16906057
That didn't really fix his diabetes then did it. That's like saying "my uncle's leg was broken but they fixed it by amputating it"

>>16906081
shit analogy more like i can walk now but if i brake my leg again i cant walk again

>>16906088
That would be the equivalent of being able to eat carbs like a normal person again. If his metabolism is still broken and his fix is he just can't eat and process food normally, the problem is still there

>>16906092
youre avoiding all the negative complications but if you start eating like shit again theyll come back

>>16906092
not needing to spends thousands of dollars on medication is also nice

>>16906096
I wouldn't call keto not eating like shit in the first place, nor does it not have potential complications, but there are sources of carbohydrate you can eat that don't cause complications or diabetes. A healthy metabolic system can process whole grains, beans, and fruits with no problems, and be better off for it.

>>16906114
>A healthy metabolic system
we were talking about people who are diabetic...

>>16906118
We were talking about fixing diabetes. A fix doesn't leave you impaired

>>16906125
no but like i said if you go back to eating like shit it could come back.

>>16906128
Can he eat carbs from non shit sources without problems?

>>16906134
maybe it probably depends on that individuals level of insulin resistance but if youve done so well without them why add them back?

>>16906137
>if youve done so well without them why add them back?
Because they help prevent most diseases a diabetic is susceptible too, like heart disease

>>16906139
im assuming you think saturated fat causes heart disease? if high fat reverses diabetes, which is the most powerful risk factor for heart disease... you see where im going theres a contradiction in here somewhere.

>>16906148
That's the medical consensus, yes.
>if high fat reverses diabetes
Apparently it doesn't
>which is the most powerful risk factor for heart disease
Non-diabetics develop heart disease as well, typically because they eat too many keto-friendly foods that raise their cholesterol and damage their arteries

>>16906139
"Consumption of a very low carbohydrate diet with nutritional ketosis for 2 years in patients with type 2 diabetes lowered levels of small LDL particles that are commonly increased in diabetic dyslipidemia and are a marker for heightened CVD risk. A corresponding increase in concentrations of larger LDL particles was responsible for higher levels of plasma LDL-C. The lack of increase in total LDL particles, ApoB, and in progression of CIMT, provide supporting evidence that this dietary intervention did not adversely affect risk of CVD."
cant post link cause spam but...

>>16905920
I dunno. Its just kind of a random hat toss it seems. Like there are Asian people from areas with high lactose intolerance areas who digest some dairy just fine. Keep in mind lactose intolerance isn't dairy intolerance, it just means you can't digest the sugars in milk, in minor instances of lactose intolerance, this can be taken care of by eating hard cheeses and butter and even cream products. Or can just take a lactase enzyme and drink milk without issues or just drink raw/non cow milk. There are also extreme cases of lactose intolerance where you just cant consume any dairy, but i think that's actually a lot more rare than we think

>>16906160
>high fat reverses diabetes
it does the ADA has even acknowledged this since 2019
https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fendo.2019.00348/full
"There was also resolution of diabetes (reversal, 53.5%; remission, 17.6%) in the CCI group but not in UC. All the reported improvements had p < 0.00012."

>>16906081
funny because continuing to eat like shit while having diabetes will cause your leg to rot off.

Id rather just ditch soda and make grains a rare treat than lose my leg any day.

>>16906162
>A corresponding increase in concentrations of larger LDL particles was responsible for higher levels of plasma LDL-C.

>>16906178
thats a good thing larger LDL are neutral in terms of CVD risk the small LDL (pattern B) are the atherogenic ones. Krauss worked this out in the 90s.

>>16906178
funny how you ignore every other risk factor that sees significant improvement. how does that cognitive dissonance feel?

>>16906178
the spam filter is being a bitch

>>16906182
Both are atherogenic.
In fact people with genetically high cholesterol, who can be 4-20x more likely to have a heart attack, have primarily large LDL
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/10235090/
Small LDL only looks worse in some studies because it correlates with diabetes

>>16906207
>>16906162
The authors of the study aren't the most unbiased bunch, having taken funding from food industry groups for decades, but look at the data, not their claims about lack of CVD risk.
They set up a trial where patients lost weight, as a result saw improvements in certain biomarkers like blood glucose, and yet their LDL cholesterol went up, and they call it a "net benefit" because weight loss obscured some of the harm of their diet composition

>>16906228
>some of the harm of their diet composition
reversing diabetes in the majority of long term diabetics and this is your takeaway. i really dont have to say anymore

>>16906234
You say "reversing diabetes" like they cured them altogether. Any improvement could be called "reversing diabetes" by this interpretation.

Eat nothing but twinkies and your blood sugar will improve if you lose weight
http://www.cnn.com/2010/HEALTH/11/08/twinkie.diet.professor/index.html
Normally your cholesterol would lower too, unless your diet is bad enough that it goes up despite weight loss

>>16906248
>Any improvement could be called "reversing diabetes"
show me any other diet that gets long term diabetics off all medication. ill wait. theres only one or two other ways. 1 is bariatric surgery and the other is severe caloric restriction which is obviously not sustainable. they discuss this but of course you didnt bother to read the paper

>>16906256
Nearly the exact opposite diet does that too, while also allowing people to consume carbs again
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/16873779/

>>16906263
thats not reversal thats a small improvement in a1c

>>16906263
"Forty-three percent (21 of 49) of the vegan group and 26% (13 of 50) of the ADA group participants reduced diabetes medications."
none of them got off their meds. this is a shorter study duration, a smaller sample size, AND a poorer outcome. your diet is inferior for diabetics thats just a fact

>>16904728
>imagine starving yourself of one of the basic food groups based on junk science
>one of the basic food groups
the food groups are junk science themselves you fucking retard kek

>>16906278
>>a poorer outcome. your diet is inferior for diabetics thats just a fact
this is also an understatement for reasons you would know if you read the study i posted. the study i posted was on long time diabetics with a median diagnosis of 8 or 9 years if my memory is correct
>>A1C fell 0.96 percentage points (P < 0.0001) in the vegan group
this is a paltry improvement and can be accomplished just by cutting out soda and junk

>>16906268
Where does the other study say they ended up with no need for medication? The study wasn't even about diabetic markers, it was about LDL, which it tried to spin as a positive despite going up even with the benefit of weight loss

>>16906311
youre looking at the wrong paper that was on the cvd risk factors the paper in >>16906167 was on the diabetes reversal
>>"Use of any glycemic control medication (excluding metformin) among CCI participants declined (from 55.7 to 26.8%) including insulin (-62%) and sulfonylureas (-100%). The UC group had no changes in these parameters (except uric acid and anion gap) or diabetes medication use. There was also resolution of diabetes (reversal, 53.5%; remission, 17.6%) in the CCI group but not in UC. All the reported improvements had p < 0.00012."

>>16906327
>>"Despite a mean and median of 8.4 and 7 years since diagnosis among CCI participants, the remission rate was higher than the Look AHEAD trial where its participants had a median of 5 years (4) since diabetes diagnosis."
no other intervention rivals this outcome on such a population with such long standing diabetes

>>16906311
"The increased atherogenic risk associated with the pattern B phenotype may result in part from increased concentrations of lipoprotein subpopulations that are relatively susceptible to oxidative modification."
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/8475928/
as i said earlier its the pattern B particles that are more atherogenic and this might be why

>>16906332
>CCI diabetes reversal exceeds remission as prescriptions for metformin were usually continued given its role in preventing disease progression (10, 59), preserving β-cell function (59) and in the treatment of pre-diabetes per guidelines (28).
The remission was high, using the avoidance glucose altogether as a way to control blood glucose, but all the people called "reversed" continued medication.
The trade-off was their LDL cholesterol went up 13 points while the other group's went down 10 points.

>>16906385
If the problem is they're susceptible to oxidation, a keto diet would have to take extra care to avoid dietary cholesterol
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/10704618/

>>16906399
>>"that addition of a moderate amount of dietary cholesterol to a reduced fat diet rich"
or maybe the problem is the low fat diet
>>13 subjects (age range 46-78 years) with an LDL cholesterol concentration >3.36 mmol/l consumed each of four diets for 32-day periods
or maybe the effects are evanescent. what i had posted was in vitro data just to outline a potential mechanism

>cut bread, pasta, and sugars and count calories
>lose 85 pounds
>cholesterol goes through the roof

I've added some oatmeal to my daily diet since I heard it is good for lowering cholesterol but jeez, legit the only thing unhealthy about me now though so that's a plus

I feel deeply for actual Celiac sufferers, but yeah otherwise glutards are complete idiots. Just eat some toast lol.

>>16906432
Dietary fat held constant, it's the cholesterol that did it
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/9001684/
One potential mechanism for large LDL being dangerous is that it's a bigger ball of atherogenic cholesterol and a distinction between the two in terms of risk, much less large LDL being neutral, hasn't been established by controlling for factories that affect ldl phenotype like diabetes
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/23257303/

>>16906461
>Dietary fat held constant, it's the cholesterol that did it
I know it was constant Im saying perhaps the problem mightve been that they were fat restricted. Maybe its not the cholesterol but the insulin resistance. Or at least thats what Gerald Reaven thought was more important in the etiology of arterial disease.
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/8325978/

>>16906528
> Maybe its not the cholesterol but the insulin resistance
How does that work with the observation that increasing cholesterol increased LDL oxidation?

>>16904728
...wheat is a basic food group? Is that what I'm supposed to take from the image?

>>16904762
>>16904856
Mongols did eat some grain though. And were actually one of the first to do so.

>>16907748
Ah yes, skull "science". Shape of a skull means fuck all if something is healthy or not you fucking idiot. Fuck off with your stupid pictures and read studies you absolute fucking mong.

>>16904728
i eat lots of grain and i eat lots of meat, i mostly try to avoid fruit sugars these days because that shit is just straight up poison. calories good, sugar bad.

I've done keto on and off, but has anyone here done literally ZERO carb? It just occured to me that I've never done it. Might try it to see what its like. I'll just have meat and butter (no spices).

>>16907786
>seething this hard