/ck/ - Food & Cooking

>>13720778
Maybe, but the fact that they don't support industrial animal farming does put them on higher moral ground than you. It's kind of telling when you have to reduce the entire issue down to the point of death in order to justify yourself.

>>13720781
All diets are equally moral. It takes enormous arrogance to suggest otherwise. Vegans are fucking dumb as fuck.

>>13720778
Well it kind of does put us omnivores on a lower moral ground. U just kinda got to weigh that against how much you like the taste of bacon. Also if you haven't watched your food die or done it personally yourself, I suggest you do. Killing my own chickens gave me a lot more respect for the meat in a spiritual way (not to sound like a fag)

Vegans are mental babies who think as long as the animals they kill are out of sight they don't exist.

They do horrifically destructive things like buying food shipped from third world countries with no animal rights or environmental protection. It's just virtue signaling.

My vegan sister is one of the dumbest people I've ever known and it's only gotten worse since she's been on a vegan diet. Her anxiety is through the roof, she's fatter than she's ever been, and being a vegan is her entire personality. It's almost impossible to have a normal conversation with her now.

>>13720789
Support your argument you stupid shitstain. You sound like a fucking autist repeating "vegans r dum!!!!!!!!"

Prove your point retard.

>>13720778
Holy yikes, victim complex-ola cringeoli

>>13720850
>Vegans are mental babies who think as long as the animals they kill are out of sight they don't exist.
...and how are you any different? Do you raise and slaughter your own meat? Because if you buy meat from a grocery store then you are literally engaging in the same behavior you accuse vegans of.

>>13720873
I know for sure I'm paying for animals to be killed because I buy and eat their flesh. I don't pretend otherwise.

Your brain is wasting away from lack of animal foods in your diet.

>>13720873
Not him, but the difference is that he's not basing his personality on the fraudulent moral posturing that the vegan will. And you know that you disingenuous tourist. >>>/pl/eddit

>>13720850
>as long as the animals they kill are out of sight they don't exist
Man you are real stupid aren't you. That's exactly the problem with people who eat meat, they don't connect it with the animal because they don't have to

get better at rhetoric

>>13720894
Even children know that beef is from cows, pork is from pigs, etc.

But vegans actually think buying tropical fruit from shithole countries is environmentally friendly and doesn't harm animals because they are dumber than children.

I only dislike the vegans that do it as cope because they can't handle that suffering is a part of all life. Bitches need to get over themselves.

The only true way to be vegan is to grow your own food and be self-reliant, therefore ensuring no product you use caused an animal to suffer. But that takes some hard work. Vegans just do the bare minimum to satisfy their misplaced guilt (or rather their ego) and pat themselves on the back for it. They hide behind the lazy excuse of "that would be unrealistic".

>>13720778
I'm a vegan because if I'm not hunting the meat or fishing for it, it doesn't feel right to me to eat it-- predators hunt-- if I'm going to live because something that moves around and feels fear lost it's life, I'm damn sure going to take that life myself. Fuck paying for something like that.

Plus, it kills fewer plants and is overall less damaging to the environment (in theory) to just eat veggies and anything that's not an industrial farm animal-- that being said, I think a lot of vegans aren't "actually" vegan when you get down to it.

If you eat at a restaurant that sells meat, even if you don't consume any meat, you're still supporting the industry-- it may be easy to find a vegan only restaurant if you live in a city, but what about the food you eat at home? How much do we consume that doesn't in some way support some corporate monopoly that sells shitty factory meat? Or is responsible for some other kind of human rights violation? When you get down to it it's actually really difficult to not support the meat industry. Maybe not impossible, but it feels like it a lot of the time, and I definitely fuck up a lot.

Freeganism + Food Banks + Hunting/Fishing/Subsistence farming + lots of research into what you buy and consume is probably the closest we can get-- but even then that's not perfect in our world. And it's not enough to just do it yourself-- the majority is like you OP, and the overwhelming majority on the planet would need to start engaging with food like this before things got better, and I'm not super hopeful it will.

>>13720781
We’ve been over this. Mechanical planting and harvesting kills between twenty and thirty thousand small mammals per acre, every year. These animals are not instantly killed with a captive bolt gun, but they are crushed to death in their shallow burrows or ripped to shreds by whirling blades. Their atomized gore ends up permeating every single pulse, grain, bit of rice you eat. Unless you believe that somehow a cow’s life is worth more than a vole’s or a rat’s, which is totally stupid thinking as I’m sure you agree, you’re causing more suffering and animal death than if you exclusively ate beef, where you could easily kill only one cow per person per year.

It’s not the meat industry that kills the most animals per year. It’s big grain and soy.

No, only a sick freak of a vegan would eat grains and pulses and beans. It’s absolutely cruel! This is why, as an actually ethical vegan and not just a slave to big grain, you shouldn’t eat mechanically harvested crops of any kind. Imagine this little animals getting crushed, mangled, their guts spurting out in wormlike coils as they are crushed, entire families of them! Tiny little baby bunnies and voles, their eyes just opened for the first time, and the only thing they EVER saw was their poor mommy’s skull getting smashed and her brains coming out, right before that soy harvester kills them too.

Vegan people are sick freaks and they’re in a Satanic death cult - lying and saying they’re saving the planet when their soybean hunger is deforesting the Amazon and they deal much more death than a strict carnivore. All the while lying to themselves and everybody else.

Veganism is positively Satanic unless you do it like the Jain.

>>13720778
>How dare you get mad at me for supporting killing! I'LL KILL YOU!

This is basically what you said.

>>13720977
>thinking factory farmed animals grow on thin air
You realize that adult cow is like 2000 pounds, right?
>oh but they eat grass!
Nope, less than 10% of livestock eat grass.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cattle_feeding

>>13720913
>suffering is a part of all life
It is but people are able to put an end to a lot of suffering too. Just accepting it and not trying to change anything is being complacent.

>>13721003
Yeah it's nice that we can feed animals the waste products left over from crops. They upcycle garbage into food.

Someone has to mitigate the damage caused by selfish plant eating vegans.

>>13720778
Omnivores are fucking disgusting, just pick a side. List of animal omnivores include: pigs, rats, raccoons, opossums. These animals are disgusting because they eat anything.

>>13721001
What's wrong with killing animals?

>>13720977
Even a dog can learn thru repetiveness carnist, so pay attention, once again.

>>13721003
Meat eaters don't care if they kill animals. Vegans claim to care, but when it's pointed out that they do in fact kill way more animals than people who eat grass fed beef they flip out.

You're a murderer. Mechanical agriculture is even more murder than meat. If you care about animals, stop eating mechanically planted and harvested grains and pulses. If you don't care, stop being vegan.

It's pretty simple really.

>>13720789
>Vegans are fucking dumb as fuck.
because they lack nutrients in their diet causing a loss of IQ

These arguments against being vegan are so stupid and weak. They arent even counterarguments just inane shit. Being vegan reduces the market for factory farming. Factory farming is disgusting, hurts animals and is harmful to the environment. Feeding an animal to slaughter itnis less efficient than eating the grains you would have fed it. Chicken farm? Gross feedlots? Gross. Dairies? Gross af. Soy and corn and wheat are mostly fed to animals not people so all these arguments about killing voles are pretty fucking dumb.

>>13721359
Yeah, I dont understand why antis keep claiming its plant farming that does it... if the copypasta is real. I see a dairy farmer post anti vegan propaganda, I assume it's that person, they post on reddit too and try to force vegans into buying animal products again

>>13720912
Knowing that beef is from a cow isn't the same as knowing that the cow was raised in shit conditions and then slaughtered in a brutal fashion in a murder factory. Children don't know the whole story, then they grow up and post on /ck/ about how everybody knows that beef comes from cows, thus perpetuating the cycle of stupidity and borderline psychopathy.

>>13721396
Nice selfie, soy guzzler.

>>13721370
Wooosh.

Livestock require more crops than people. Are you really retarded enough to think that crops convert directly into meat or that livestock could somehow yield more than what goes in despite calories being burned for metabolic processes?

>>13721267
First off, pigs, rats, racoons, and opossums are cute. So fuck you.

Second, you are an omnivore. You have one stomach with an acidic ph, and a sad excuse for a cecum, along with a tiny colon. You also don't eat your own shit like our gorilla ancestors.

And supplements are shady af and I stay the fuck away from them.

The truth is none of you have ever produced anything other than flatulence in your whole lives and you have no clue what goes into your food other than stupid charts and graphs you find on nutritionfacts.org

>>13720778
>They will never take my meat away from me.
No-one is trying to. You're probably just experincing some derivitive of roid rage from the hormones in the rotting carcasses you consume.

>Supporting animal slaughter does not make me any less moral than someone who doesn't.
It does. You're evil.

>They're bloody ridiculous and should all be punched in the mouth.
Bring it, meatfag. Your body is probably so wasted from consuming decaying flesh that you couldn't even lift your own fist.

>>13721455
He's just saying it because he's part of the livestock industry, its propaganda so people keep up on veganism and start buying animal products again so he can get his Dollar dollar back :)

>>13721496
*give up on veganism
I type too fast on my posts, please forgive me and ignore

>>13721455
>Livestock require more crops than people.
Depends what you eat. If you eat grass fed beef and wild game, no animals were harmed in the food production process.

Personally, I only eat grass fed and wild game, making me much less of a killer than any vegan.

>>13721508
>not changing your diet at all Makes you special and more loving of animals compared to vegans who change their entire lifestyle

Yeah sounds like bullshit, you just have a generic diet and only claim you're not a killer

>>13720778
>Supporting animal slaughter does not make me any less moral than someone who doesn't.
Yes, it does. Killing is more morally wrong than letting live you absolute mong. Morals is literally about how do you treat people, animals etc.
I still eat meat. But I don't pretend that it's not morally more wrong than not eating. Be a man and accept it. Stop crying you bitch.

>>13720873
The difference is regular people don't have moral issues with killing and consuming animals.

>>13721525
That's not true but even if it were, it doesn't make vegans who eat mechanically planted and harvested grains and pulses any less of a killer.

Vegans aren't even trying if they eat like that. It's just the poor fuzzies in the supermarket they care about, not all the little animals getting ground up into pink mist and coating their food with their gore.

>>13721020
What is meaningful about the supposed suffering of non-human organisms? Further, how is leaving them to live and die in the wild better than them living and dying on a farm?

>>13720778
>yfw you realize that there are pieces of animal corpses in the stomaches of people around you.

>>13721359
Dishonest propaganda.

Animals eat garbage left over from crops grown for other purposes.

https://www.cgiar.org/news-events/news/fao-sets-the-record-straight-86-of-livestock-feed-is-inedible-by-humans/

>>13721577
This, vegans never heard of silage and feed corn.

>>13721577
This, also most food in the dumpster is produce and grain products anyways. It would be better to take that food waste and feed it to livestock anyways.

>armchair environmentalists and nutritionists in this thread both say extremely misinformed/anecdotal shit

Holy shit, vegans may say some stupid shit sometimes, but OP might actually be retarded (not as an insult, but an actual mental deficiency despite the meat intake).

Yeah I hate people who aren't sick and evil like me. They make me feel bad about myself, I wish they didn't exist

>>13721815
Dear god what has PETA been doing to that pig? Radroaches are prettier.

>>13721528
When does it become bad to kill non-human life? Is it bad to kill bacteria? Moths? Rats? Is it okay if they aren't cute? What if they are cute? Should people go to jail for killing an animal if it's as bad as killing another human being? Why not just kill yourself right now if your life is worth less than a cockroach?

>>13721833
Vegans are all bootlickers who think the government should step in and take away the meat.

>>13721833
>When does it become bad to kill non-human life?
When it causes suffering obviously

Bacteria don't have brains and aren't capable of consciousness or feeling pain you fucking idiot. A rat has a brain and can feel pain. So you shouldn't kill a rat without a GOOD REASON. And "it tastes good" is not a good reason, or else you could say the same thing to justify killing a human.

>>13721875
What is considered "good", and who decides what is good?

>>13721864
>Vegans are all bootlickers who think the government should step in and take away the meat.
Most vegans I know are anarchists

>>13721864
Literally no vegans want that. Vegans want to convince people to be vegan. Each year the meat industry will breed less and less animals until it's no longer economically feasible for them to continue. No legislation needed.

>>13721886
>i have severe autism, if you ask me people should be able to kill anyone anytime for any reason

>>13721914
Rats aren't humans, dingus. So again, what is "good", and who decides what's good?

>>13721917
Why is it not "good" to kill humans?

>>13721549
Being on a farm was better before factory farming, but I don't think animals in factory farms have better lives than wild animals anymore. But, it's not like we'll just completely get rid of livestock animals with lab-grown meat, people still like to keep cats around even though they don't need them for pest control anymore.

>>13721891
All modern "anarchists" are simply Marxists wearing a disguise.

There are two schools of Marxist thought which predominate, those who think you can take over society from the inside and change it into Marxism, like Obama, and those who think you need to bomb everything and start fresh, like Antifa. But you don't end at anarchy, that's simply preparing the road for Marxism.

>>13721928
>*plunges knife into your neck*
>"but why [gasp] is it not good to [gurgle] kill humans?"

>>13721928
I believe in God. So for myself and other people who believe in God, their morality is decided and fixed by God. Vegans certainly cannot both believe in an Abrahamic religion and that animals and humans are equals though perhaps there are religions with divine doctrine that states human lives are on par with slugs, rats, and cockroaches. What do vegans believe, and who decides their moral code?

>>13721944
Yes, Anarchism is explicitly informed by Marxist theory. This isn't exactly a secret. Communism and Anarchism have a lot in common. "Pure" Communism as described by Marx is effectively a stateless Anarchist society, but Communism has branched off into a lot of different schools of thought over the decades.

You haven't uncovered some big secret here.

>>13721952
>It's an "how can you have morality without Jesus" episode
Ah, right. You're an idiot.

>>13721952
Vegans don't believe that animals and humans are equal, they just don't think it's acceptable to rape, torture, and kill animals so that you have a few seconds of pleasure on your taste buds.

It's 100% vegan to kill an animal in self-defense or to euthanize a suffering animal and all sorts of other reasons.

>>13721003
>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cattle_feeding
>In the United States, most cattle raised for beef production are (mostly) grass-fed
k.

>>13721960
So how do you personally decide on your morality? Who decides what is right and wrong, good and bad? No one will answer this one.
>>13721970
Typically people believe that God granted dominion over animals and that raising them, breeding them, and slaughtering is a God given right. For vegans, who decides that this practice is immoral?

>>13721992
Nothing. Vegans follow satan and thus believe in empathy, compassion, and preventing suffering.

>>13721909
>>13721931


you guys are so out of fucking touch with reality. Vegans are never self sustaining and they don't produce shit. They just consume and complain. If you don't like industrialized agriculture, why don't you find a piece of land and grow your own food? Shit, go to a veganic farm and volunteer or something?

But no, you'd rather just bitch and moan online about the piggerinos and how dare they put these sows in gestation crates even though the industrial breed of pig is incredibly aggressive and will eat her babies without a second thought and heirloom pigs cant be made profitable in an intensive industrial farm. If this farm does it like shit, then all farms should be illegal, right? Just like if people abuse their dogs, then no one should own dogs?

Why don't you grow your own food?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VBnmmNxmO1c

>>13721992
>Typically people believe that God granted dominion over animals and that raising them, breeding them, and slaughtering is a God given right. For vegans, who decides that this practice is immoral?
Who decides which conception of God is valid? Either way you look at it, religious people are just as guilty of choosing their morality too by picking one religion over another.

>>13720778
but anon 60% of wildlife on earth has died out since the 70's
>may be a good time to be less of a dick to animals before their gone

>>13722013
Religious people have to choose their god, yes, but their morality is decided and fixed by a higher power (regardless of whether what they believe is true). The alternative would be to decided your own morality or the teachings of another human being. Do vegans have a vegan handbook written by another person and stick to exactly what is written in this work? Or do they wake up one day and decide they are the ultimate decider of right and wrong, essentially acting as their own higher power?

>>13720781
Why is industrial animal farming morally lower than not doing it?

>>13722028
>Or do they wake up one day and decide they are the ultimate decider of right and wrong, essentially acting as their own higher power?
How are you not doing this every day? You've just put some "god told me this is what I should do" window dressing around it.

>>13722035
Answer the question.

>>13722009
Anon you're spending your time bitching and moaning online right now.

>>13722025
its called darwinism

>>13722028
>Or do they wake up one day and decide they are the ultimate decider of right and wrong, essentially acting as their own higher power?
Most atheists do this, yes. They develop their own sense of right and wrong, informed by the society they live in and the views of people they care about. When something challenges their existing moral framework, they think through it and come to a conclusion that they find comfortable. It's a combination of individual will and community norms. The fact you find this so alien says a lot about your capacity to participate in a functional society.

Although realistically the above is exactly how all religious moral systems developed historically. Someone just wrote it down, which has caused a real slowdown in religious people's capacity to adapt to modern problems, considering they're working on centuries old texts as the basis for their whole worldview.

>>13722028
You're still choosing to believe you know what God wants. That to me is far more arrogant than simply believing that unnecessary suffering should be avoided when possible. Don't pretend you check your Bible every time you see an injustice. Unless you're autistic you're just as guilty of going on intuition in day to day affairs.

>>13722049
>>13722055
I'm just asking questions here, no need to get so offended. I am trying to understand vegans and where they are coming from. I can't understand what vegans mean by good and evil if we derive our morality from different sources. From the sounds of it, every vegan creates their own morality and I'll have to ask them to define what's good and evil every time I engage in this topic with them.

By the way, can we get back to the definition of good? What is good, to you? What is bad?

Hey vegans: Why don't you just leave the city and start growing your own food instead of paying raped and exploited plantation slaves to grow it for you?

https://www.theguardian.com/global-development/2019/apr/14/rape-abuse-claims-spains-strawberry-industry

https://www.hrw.org/news/2002/04/24/ecuador-widespread-labor-abuse-banana-plantations

https://metro.co.uk/2019/04/04/women-india-pay-price-cashew-nut-demand-vegan-diets-rise-9110415/

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TrHoyXd583w

>>13722064
>By the way, can we get back to the definition of good? What is good, to you? What is bad?
I already just said. Unnecessary suffering is bad.

>>13722072
Why?

>>13722064
>By the way, can we get back to the definition of good? What is good, to you? What is bad?
They're very loose terms that don't really have an explicit definition under a non-religious moral system. This isn't a bad thing though, trying to sort every possible situation in life into one of two categories really hamstrings your ability to think.

>>13722065

>>13722073
>being this autistic
Experience is fundamental to everything. Just simply imagine yourself being tortured and ask yourself if that's desirable.

If your notion of morality is merely obedience then you have no morality. You're no better than a robot.

lmfao imagine being as mad as op is just because other people exist and having your uncritical assumptions challenged leads to an angry lashing out instead of genuine security in your beliefs. so embarrassing lmfao, not even a vegan here

>>13722085
Grow your own food.

>>13722082
If there isn't really any explicit good or bad then HOW is it bad to eat animals?
>>13722087
>Just simply imagine yourself being tortured and ask yourself if that's desirable.
Do vegans really decide right and wrong based on "what's desirable" to someone else? Imagine mommy telling you, "No tendies tonight, anon!", and ask yourself if that's desirable. Me, I think the world is a terrible place if every anon does not get his tendies. There will be great suffering without endless tendies. It is EVIL not to provide anons with their tendies!

Being a vegan is just a way to jerk yourself off, realistically your personal efforts have literally 0 benefit on the environment or treatment of animals

>>13722072
Do you eat chocolate?

>>13722130
Torture and tendies are hardly comparable.

So if your morality is just obedience to you, would you anally rape a baby if God told you to? Whichever the case may be, we can safely say that one of the following is true:
1. You're a sick fuck and a joke of a human being for preaching about morals, or
2. You're a complete hypocrite for having moral convictions that contradict God.

>>13722085
Agreed, people also harass each other and leak private photos, vegans cant stop that, they just change their food habits.


I

>>13720850
You still use way more resources of the kind you describe by eating meat than by eating an equivalent in plants. Livestock are inefficient at turning plants into food.

>>13722219
I saw a video of a duck farmer admitting its inefficient to raise ducks as food instead of just eating plants, he did it anyway tho. its irrelevant because people will do it anyway even if its not the best, just like people who get married because boredom, its all the same

>>13722130
Wasting resources on trying to feed everyone meat given the current state of things obviously damages things that I and most people would at least claim to care about for both practical and aesthetic reasons. It’s bad for water and soil ishen those things are at a premium, and motivates people to kill of wildlife to minimize predation and competition. That’s about as close to bad as it gets without having god come down and declare it bad.

>>13722115
I do :)

>>13722130
>If there isn't really any explicit good or bad then HOW is it bad to eat animals?
It's not *bad*, it's causing unnecessary suffering, something I personally would prefer to mitigate. A lot of people agree with me on this sentiment. I don't need to sort it into the "bad" category to believe this.

>>13722149
Most vegans are also pretty involved in political activism in my experience, though.

>>13722241
>people will do whatever they want so we shouldn't make any effort to change society ever
Galaxy brained shit here anon.

Your behind the times grandpa. It's no long let about the moral authority over life. These days it's about how livestock are a massive cause of climate change and the only to prevent the world from ending a decade from now is to stop eating meat

>>13722260
Cool, what do u grow?

>>13722274
I do make a effort to change, I went vegan. I do know that workers are treated badly too even when working on plants, I plan on replacing cashews right now. Doesn't it apply to all food farming though and not just plants?

>>13722112
I am not a vegan either but the cognitive dissonance these debates invoke in some people is absolutely mind bending

>>13722170
We can probably agree at this point that non-vegans view animals as, well, animals that they have the right to consume. Animals, being non-human, do not have human, God given (even if you're atheist your world view is likely shaped by Abrahamic religion) rights. Animals cannot be tortured, raped, and murdered as these are things that apply to humans. They can feel pain, they can be bread, and they can be killed and slaughtered. Vegans clearly do not view humans as distinct beings with greater (and God given) importance. It makes sense really. Without God, humans are not better or worse than, dare I say, cattle.
>>13722244
I agree with working towards and making decisions that help improve the environment. What I'm picking apart is arguments about animal suffering, what that means, why it's bad, and who decides it's bad. If vegans just stuck to the argument of environmental damage then I might not question it at all.
>>13722264
Maybe this is a barrier that I will never be able to get past with vegans, but I just don't understand what "unnecessary suffering" of (some) animals (not the human slaves making your coffee!) improves or helps. What is the end goal exactly?

>>13722443
the end goal is to treat the animals on earth better, >inb4 this is religion
Animals are a part of the ecosystem of the planet and we remove from their "real" environment to make steaks, froie gras, sandwiches, ect.
If we treat other species on earth badly the planet suffers, its simple logic. no ecosystem means no life ever

>>13722443
I would bring up how dogs are animals but you probably unironically don't give a shit about them either.

You never answered my question. If God told you to trust him and rape a baby, would you do it? If you're gonna argue that it's immoral to hurt humans even when instructed by God then your whole argument falls apart because you're admitting that you only obey God because you currently have no objections with whatever you think he wants but are still deciding at some level.

>>13722461
If that’s your goal leave the city, find a place with land where you can sustain yourself, and practice regenerative ag.

>>13722535
Satan would tell me to rape a baby not God, so no, I wouldn't listen to that. My religious doctrine is fixed and can't be changed day to day. You don't understand this, because you are a godless heathen. And I don't get your point about dogs. People raise and breed dogs all the time - on no torture and rape! If people want to eat them it's no different than eating pig, cow, or any other animal.

>>13722590
>Satan would tell me to rape a baby not God, so no, I wouldn't listen to that. My religious doctrine is fixed and can't be changed day to day. You don't understand this, because you are a godless heathen.
That's not the premise. The premise is what if God told you to rape a baby, not what if something that might be God told you to. It's hypothetical so it doesn't matter if you would be skeptical about it's authenticity IRL. In this scenario, it's definitely God. Who knows, maybe the baby will grow to be godless heaven and therefore no better than cattle, not that such a distinction should matter because it's not for you to decide right and wrong, right?
>And I don't get your point about dogs. People raise and breed dogs all the time - on no torture and rape! If people want to eat them it's no different than eating pig, cow, or any other animal.
I figured you'd probably say something like that because you don't have genuine empathy, just a mechanistic script of if-this-then-that declarations. Which is why I didn't bother.

>>13722461
>the end goal is to treat the animals on earth better
Why does this matter if you have no higher purpose?
>If we treat other species on earth badly the planet suffers
This is only true for mass farming practices. Raising some chickens in your back yard for eggs, goats for milk, and bees for honey does not harm the planet. Yet vegans still consider this animal suffering. Plus if you were to trap a feral cat, take it out of the ecosystem, and torture it to death, the local ecosystem would be better off. The cat doesn't need to be tortured to death, but it's suffering or non-suffering doesn't change the ecological impact.
>>13722642
My god cannot tell me to rape a baby dumbass. Anything disguising itself as god and telling me to do that would be the devil. I know it's hard for moral relativists to understand, but religions have fixed morality and rules that don't change. Satanists like Joseph Smith will answer to God for their heresy. Anyone or anything trying to sway me from what's already been established by God, is satan or has been corrupted by satan. Nice try, dark one.

>>13722673
Dairy cows are raped by farmers before they're one year old. God's ok with that?

>>13722678
You mean they breed the cows?

>>13722678
Then don't buy milk from cows that have been artificially inseminated if you don't like AI. Seriously, be the change you wanna see in the world. Go find a farm that naturally breeds their cows without AI (heritage dual purpose breeds which do well on pasture) and practices regenerative ag that heals soil.

Buy their milk and/or then tell people about it.

If they bitch about the price then do the sob story about cow rape and what have you.


P.S Most dairy cows aren't made to produce until they are two. At least that was what I saw with a conventional jersey cow farmer. Maybe Holsteins breed younger but idk imo their milk is inferior.

>>13722443
>What is the end goal exactly?
To reduce the suffering of other living creatures. That's the end goal. It's a constant goal, we'll never mitigate suffering 100%, that's impossible, but we should always be striving to do better as a society even if it's unattainable.

>>13722695
What if holistically raised livestock which were allowed to express their natural behaviors outside in a natural enviornment helped improve the lives of all living creatures who have suffered from all forms of conventional industrial mechanized agriculture?

>>13722715
Why can't the holistically raised livestock be humans?

>>13722715
Are we still mechanically slaughtering them once they get to prime meat age?

If you let an animal die of natural causes you get horrible meat, killing them early is a necessary part of the process.

>>13722695
BUT WHY? If you have no higher power, and no higher purpose, and none of this means anything at all except stroking your ego while you still chow down on human slave coffee with human slave chocolate chip human slave banana bread maybe with some human slave cashews in there, then why the fuck does it matter if people raise and eat chicken or milk cows? I'm starting to believe the shitposts that veganism is a literal brainwashing death cult that accomplishes nothing other than malnourishing its followers while not actually helping the world in any meaningful way.

>>13722724
Have you ever eaten meat from an old cow? Don’t knock it till you try it.

https://youtu.be/DqXjsBwOjOI

I’m not sure if you’ve seen small scale, on site slaughter, it’s a captive bolt to the head to shut off it’s central nervous system, bleed the cow out and it’s dead in maybe a couple minutes. No suffering required.

>>13722769
So I've decided that you'll probably reach your prime at age 50, and I'm going to shoot you in the head with a silenced pistol while you sleep. Who cares that you have much more life ahead of you, it's not like you're going to feel any pain.

>>13720781
unless you grow all of your own food on a homestead then you buy shit from industrialized farms

>>13722719
Why do people always ask this absolutely retarded question? Consumption of meat from the same species comes with a very high risk of disease transmission, and humans contain very little good quality meat. The only consistent cases of cannibalism in nature are diseased creatures acting abnormally or lower lifeforms which aren't complex enough to suffer from most diseases.

>>13722785
Good goy, you are equals with cattle, just as we chosen ones have known all along.

>>13722806
>eating humans is bad for nutritional reasons

this is why you're going to die a virgin

>>13722806
Do you really think disease transmission is the reason we don't have mass-cannibalism? Seriously?

>>13722065
if they don't want to make money doing that maybe they should get a different job. a thing of cashews is already like $11

>>13722831
In a roundabout way, yes. Moral aversion to cannibalism comes from practical and instinctual roots, which is why, as I said, you don't find cannibalism in nature.

>>13722844
I don't think you understand humans very well.

>>13722785
Tbh not a bad way to go.

>>13722839
It’s called slavery

>>13722854
If you somehow think that humans are exempt from the rules of nature, then you might have brain problems.

>>13720789
>not knowing the difference between morals and ethics
please return to your kindergarten classroom and let the adults talk in private

>>13720977
what does your meat eat, dumbass? what are trophic levels? open a high school biology textbook before making your pseudo-intellectual "arguments"

>>13721373
when was the last time a shit took you less than 40 minutes?

>>13721549
>having self-esteem so low that you have to try to claim superiority over innocent animals in order to justify your meaningless existence
cringe

>>13722001
based

>>13722039
it's literally not. there is baseline, background rate of extinction. the current rate at which species are going extinct is far in excess of that, we're literally in the sixth mass extinction. you can literally google this, so there's not really an excuse to be this dumb.

>>13722112
based

>>13722590
god isn't real

>>13722673
jesus christ you are stupid. first of all, unless you live in europe, raising honeybees is absolutely detrimental to the ecosystem. they are not a native species and they compete with native bee populations, which are more efficient pollinators. try reading even a wikipedia page before making idiotic claims like this. and yes, dipshit, you environmental ethics and animal ethics are two different things. nice job susing that out, do you want a trophy or something?

>>13722690
this is a new level of stupid

>>13722803
no shit. so i guess being unable to avoid one bad things means that we just might as well do all the bad things, right?

>>13722943
So are European vegans exempt from the no honey policy?

>>13720977
Don't you just love when you have to mow down 10 more fields to feed the cattle you're growing vegan feed?
Because guess what cows don't eat meat

>>13722949
you capable of comprehending the meaning of words and following a train of thought? seems like no.

>>13722968
If it doesn't cause the bees to suffer and doesn't hurt the ecosystem then why wouldn't it be okay to eat?

>>13720778
>Supporting animal slaughter does not make me any less moral than someone who doesn't

It actually does analytically, don't be a moralfag pansy boi and just own it

>>13720781
There's nothing immoral about killing animals. You're making a fallacious argument.

>>13722971
jesus christ, you are stupid. please try to keep up. first of all, i was responding to the specific claim that beekeeping isn't ecologically detrimental. i did not comment on the ethics of eating honey at all, but no, it's not ethical or vegan (veganism is an ethical position). bees do suffer as a result of harvesting honey. it's also not ethically justifiable to steal their food, which they produce for themselves in order to survive the winter. furthermore, it's exploitative since bees cannot consent to being kept. i'm sure you will have dumb ass response, though.

>>13722984
please learn the difference between morals and ethics. you think you sound smart, but you're actually showing us how little intellect you really posses.

>>13720873
>Do you raise and slaughter your own meat?
Yes. Not all of it. But about 50% of the meat I eat was raised by me. Okay I lied, I hire a professional butcher to come and slaughter my animals every year, guess you got me.

>>13722988
I know the difference and I know that no sane person would consider it morally or ethically wrong to kill an animal for food or to support an industry that does that on a large scale.

>>13723000
you obviously don't, but nice try.

>>13722864
they aren't slaves they live in the middle of nowhere and are dirt poor. if they want to they can become a subsistence farmer I'm sure there's plenty of room out in the sticks and 3rd world places don't really give a fuck

>>13720800
obligatory Achewood appreciation reply

>>13722985
>bees cannot consent to being kept
Pets can't either. Is it unvegan to keep pets? What about kids? They can't consent to being born. Is it against the vegan ethical dilemma to bring children into this world without their consent?

>>13723030
looool
you really want to catch me in an inconsistency but you picked the wrong vegan to fuck w

keeping pets is objectively not vegan. if society were to truly move away from animal exploitation, then we wouldn't have pets. it would be a contradiction. that being said, i don't think there is anything wrong with rescuing animals. a lot of "pets" exist because of selfish human behavior (buying animals and abandoning them, breeding them, not getting them fixed, etc). so there is a lot of companion animals that are suffering, particularly cats and dogs. i don't think the most vegan thing to do is to euthanize them all, personally. i think adopting them, having them spayed/neutered, providing for them, and discontinuing intentional or negligent breeding is the more vegan solution. fundamentally, it isn't right to keep animals (or to alter them, for that matter), but i think there is an ethical argument for providing a safer, happier life for an animal than what it would receive otherwise (on the street or being euthanized). taking animals out of the wild, or purchasing animals, is never vegan or ethical.

as for kids, this is a very divisive topic among vegans. i personally don't think having kids is vegan, but more because i believe that vegan requires environmental ethics (you can't argue that you care about animals if you don't consider the suffering of wild animals, as well, and environmental degradation is a huge threat to wildlife). having kids is one of the most environmentally impactful things a person can do, and it's completely optional. there is no objective justification for having children. veganism is about avoiding harm to animals as far as possible and practicable, and avoiding reproducing is very possible and practicable, so i don't think it's vegan. but my viewpoint is definitely in the minority, it is actually a huge blindspot in the vegan community.

>>13723064
>you picked the wrong vegan to fuck w
oh no no No NO
BAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

>>13723064
clarifying my view on pets. i think domesticated animals are a bit of an exception, because we've made it so that it isn't really possible for them to survive without us. for that reason, i think you could argue that we have an ethical obligation to care for them. but in a vegan world, we would transition away from having domesticated animals at all.

>>13721815
Roomy, with great ventilation. $400 p/w.

That was a fucking pathetic display OP way to go

>>13722552
This is such a cope. It’s not a scalable solution. Might as well just tell people to shut up and not waste time giving a disingenuous answer.

>>13723324
Local regenerative agriculture is scalable. If you don't want to do it yourself you can buy from someone who does.

But sustainable farming requires animals and vegans are disingenuous posers who don't actually care about anything other than their own social status.

>>13723071
behold, a perfect vegan world with no animal suffering or exploitation. Truly a cage free world.

>>13724064
hardly, but thanks for the compliment <3

You see my good friends The normie needs to live a vegan life style. Normies may appear to have high IQs but they are still husks that respond only to external stimuli. A high IQ is just a measure of the proficiency that they respond to stimuli from nature and society.

Now why do they need to be vegan? The normie has a default mode. Lets call this the Consumer mode. This is the mode they take when no pressing concerns are placed on them. Times are good and they can sit back and eat until thy are 600lbs.

Any highly restrictive diet will do. However it must be enforced by a moral code and reinforced by the sociology around them.

>>13723071
Lol what are you talking about? There are feral cats and dogs everywhere. Sure, they don't live as long as their domestic counterparts, but they exist.

>>13720778
To the most of them is more of a militant choice than just bragging the thing is when it spread like fire 1/2 years ago shit hit the fan and all the activist/proactive side was replaced with just screeches for attention. I dont blame you for hating vegans but come on veganism as a diet choice isnt hell. Although it may be at a level dangerous for you if certains proteins are missing you can compensate and most of people just take pills or make changes in a beans based diet to overcome that. Anyways we are all gonna die at 2035 or earlier they are trying not to from a heart disease nor global warming but fattys wont let them so yeah we all in the same car and boy we gonna crash

>>13720850
>Laughs in third country... then proceeds to cry

>>13721468
>Imagine having to be so damn radical about minor choices that you dont tolerate omnivores

>>13722590
Go to ward you voice hearing christian you should only listen to the elder gods ffs

>>13722678
I mean if they thick who could blame them
>PUSSY IS PUSSY

>>13724085
When your IQ gets you shit talk back man. If you are a dick you'll stay a dick it doesnt matter the number. You live in a "normie world" grow tf up and realise real world doesnt move on how obscure can one be, but rather how you connect with people. Come on show me the number and the facts deshumanize human contact and get in your eco chamber all you want. At the end you wont find a meaningfull relation to grow or people to discuss and share if you think this shallow dick measuring lifestyle is the real shit, dont go out. Shit out there is real and it will only hurt you. XOXO :))))

>>13723064
Overpopulation is a meme, the earth can very comfortably sustain more people than we have now, if we restructured how we farm and distribute food.

>>13723064
I actually cannot tell if this is a troll post.

>>13723064
What is the vegan stance on aborting the human unborn?

>>13724251
Whats the vegan stand point for masturbation is the real deal...

>>13724357
>sperm is the same as a human
Liberals are severely stupid and evil.

>>13724251
Oh, they're fine about that. But hey, don't kill a cow.

>>13724625
I want the babys anon gimme that fresh embryo

>>13724639
It's 100% better for a cow to be aborted than to be born on a factory farm

>>13724774
But what if the cow is born on a nice regenerative farm?

>>13722001
>Vegans follow satan

100% true. Funny how are and morse ... (((Vegans))) are speaking the truth.

>>13722943
>what does your meat eat, dumbass?

Grass hay and silage you compound imbecile.

vegas piss me off 2 OP. spend too much on whore

At least vegans will be getting cancer faster, so there's that.

>>13724844
so you're bragging about your inability to read?

Humans are bad for the environment, so dying early from cancer is actually vegan.

>>13725049
I'm uninterested in anything vegans say if that's what you mean.

>>13725053
No, humans aren't bad for the enviornment. Urbanized, industrialized, hyper dependent on ologarch, non producing, hyperconsuming humans aren't too great for the environment, but there are plenty of people who live with or live to better the environment.

Maybe instead of sterilizing yourself you start becoming more self sustained and regenerate the soil and increase natural biodiversity into your environment and then teach the next generation how to do the same

>>13725046
>>13725053
Anon are you just watching a video and sharing screenshots from it? This is the worst kind of blogging.

>>13726547
Once the vegans are gone I'll stop.

Vegans need to first have a think about how privileged they are to be so fussy with their diet. Then to take a look at their local environment not follow a worldwide movement. It's being taken advantage of by some large multinational companies. Example. Here where I live pasture farming is the norm. Our farm animals are being raised on open fields of grass with arguably the best practices in the world, and much of it exported. And we fetch a premium for it. But rather than eating that local, real and fresh food, you will find many vegans chowing down on a lot of processed food being grown overseas. From places where forests are being burned in order to plant these huge industrial crops of soybeans etc. They would rather eat something from a tin can made in a factory overseas and shipped to them as "meat", than support a shining example of good animal farming practices and a major local industry that is the backbone of their own countries economy, the main reason they have such a good standard of living in the first place, and so much money and food available that they are able to stop and think about the morals of it.

They will tell you that much of those crops are grown for animal feed, but the irony is they are the only ones it's imported for here.

>>13726900
Ireland?

>>13721455
And if people stop raising livestock, entire species go extinct due to no one raising them and having an interest in keeping them alive. You support genocide by going vegan

>>13727306
NZ. I understand Irish farming is quite similar

>>13727963
The logical conclusion to extreme veganism, following their arguments, is suicide

>>13727963
Yeah? Cows already wander free in India. Wild pigs are widespread enough to be a pest in most parts of the world. Chickens can look after themselves. They can't fly long distance, but they can use their wings to jump high enough to roost on branches. Maybe sheep will have trouble, but sheep can be used as a metaphor for people like you so that possibility just makes me smile about how appropriate it is.

>>13720778
I fucking love every part of a pig except for bacon. I don't get it. I just don't like bacon. Maybe I haven't had the right bacon, but I've eaten it plenty at home or in restaurants and it just never tastes good. I think I'm broken.

>>13727975
Poor bloody things. We have wild pigs, they have no natural predator and devastate native species, so are a great boon for hunters. We have a few wild chickens, standing at the road side as a novelty. Have you seen the state of the cows in india? The wandering ones are emaciated and farmers keep mutant ones alive as a tourist attraction. Sheep are already half wild, just brought in for essential treatment or for sale.

Imagine every kind farmer opened their gates, and tens of millions of cattle walked out afraid onto the highways

>>13721496
You're mentally ill, eat a steak
Big food is big grain..

>>13727984
As if they would just let such a huge percentage of their assets just walk away. Silly speculation.

>>13720778
>supporting suffering and slaughter while requiring 8 times the resources for the same amount of food because i think tastes good without providing any nutrients i couldnt easily get from plants is better than someone criticizing me for doing so!

>>13727985
The livestock industry really doesn't care about a few vegans. The buzz now is sustainable and free ranging and natural food, from healthy and happy animals. Perhaps they will sponsor a few things, so they don't lose as hard as they did with natural wool vs disposable synthetic clothing, carpet, insulation etc. But there is a large market of conscientious foodies who would like to see where their meat came from. And will pay a premium for it. And always a population growth of people who are just happy to be eating some meat instead of plain rice

>>13727987
Land is the real asset. Not livestock raised for perhaps a couple of years

>>13727997
The meat industry is pro vegan. Why bother raising expensive animals if you can sell chemical soy slop reconstituted in a meat mould?

>>13728018
The "meat industry" is largely small family farms, where I live. And we export enough to feed 10 times our population

>>13728018
The thing is, there is millions of hectares of land completely unsuitable for growing fields of soybeans etc. It's pasture and it's steep. The weeds are controlled and the waterways are surrounded by native forest. And perhaps it has some easy flats for young animals, or for finishing animals. It's cleared of forest and it has been for many hundreds of years. It has infrastructure built. It's planted with modern and selected varietys of grass and clover. And it's managed, each farm I mean, by one or two dudes, a team of dogs, a motorcycle and a tractor. And it feeds the world premium meat.

What do you want to do, build a suburb on it? Or a cannery for soybean slop.

>>13728017
Fuck this webm

My ground beef is sirloin steak

My trout is wild caught

My chicken is black.

I make my own honey cheese and yogurt.

I add steel cut oats as filler/binder in my sausage...it's good for you.

Eat more homekill people.. approach a farmer.

You might go to a market and pay 50 dollars for a lamb leg. Well I would sell you the whole living animal for 150

>>13728017
I kind of like this. The parody is really subtle, even though it's ridiculous in either case.

>>13721307
You'll never get an answer because animal killing isn't the issue.
You just need to accept the authority of specific other people to control your life choices.
Plus a change in diet will accommodate lower population levels.

>>13720778
Sure just say all vegans are the same
Veganism is the most efficient form of human nutrition
You land use reduces massively, carbon footprint is reduced and one farmer can feed more people
There are a lot of slightly autistic vegans out there who think like me

>>13727984
>Imagine every kind farmer opened their gates, and tens of millions of cattle walked out afraid onto the highways
This isn't what most vegans argue for on a policy level.

>>13722984
Nice troll. Almost got me. And this will get somebody else, because some people just don't know how to read ;)

>>13728074
So what would you do with them. I'm assuming you have the faintest idea of what it's like taking care of thousands of animals as your daily job

>>13720778
morality is a spook

>>13728051
you're probably not against sustainable fishing or honey or mealworms or medicine made from animal products, though, right?

>>13728118
How about the stuff made from human foreskins and fetal blood. Waste not want not

>>13728092
Gradually ramp down the meat industry until we have manageable populations instead of the gigantic herds we have now.

>>13728131
I would go bankrupt. Modern economies are about high supply at low prices, not quality. Any change to that would require socialist measures that the majority of the population would never support, so democracy would need to go out the window.

>>13728129
that's totally fine, but not related to my post in any conceivable way. did you mean to reply to someone else?

>>13728131
So destroy entire communities, perhaps even bring entire countries to the ground, and repurpose the pastoral land as what? Plant it for forestry? Or in rice fields run by hundreds of peasants? Heres a tip people won't give anything when they are starving

>>13728140
Wealthy people demand quality

>>13721003
>livestock means only cows

Wow retard. All cattle are grass-fed for most of their life. The finishing processing is what determines cattle yield and it's in no way cheap so farmers will sell their adult cattle to CAFO who can make the investment and return.

http://www.wifss.ucdavis.edu/wp-content/uploads/2016/05/Livestock_Production_Manual.pdf

>>13728131
>gigantic herds we have now
>now

As to compared to the 70s? What is this "gigantic herds" description based on? Of I asked what a "sustainable number" is you'd bullshit an answer because nobody has an answer. The truth is, our consumption of beef has dropped dramatically since dietary recommendations discouraged against saturated fat, and here we are, fatter and sicker than then enjoying our processed sugars and polyunsaturated industrial fat oils as a result.

I wanted to make a thread but I'll ask here:

So the Islamic faith forbids eating bacon, but what about Beyond Bacon?

>>13728140
Supply goes down when demand goes down. Vegans don't imagine everyone is going to stop consuming animal products overnight, it'll be a gradual reduction as more people are convinced of the merits of veganism. The meta industry would logically wind down to meet the diminishing demand.

>>13728154
Well no, because this is the kind of change that would take place over generations. Like any dying industry, gradually communities would shift and change, people would find work elsewhere, etc. This isn't going to be something that happens in a year or two.

>>13727984
>Imagine every kind farmer opened their gates, and tens of millions of cattle walked out afraid onto the highways

Cows would survive just fine in mild climates, and the hardy cows (highland) would survive anywhere on earth i can think of.

>>13728637
>So the Islamic faith forbids eating bacon, but what about Beyond Bacon?
It's about perceived cleanliness of the animal, so I can't see Beyond Bacon having any issues considering it isn't *from* an animal.

>>13727994
Sorry for all the pasture and grain meal you could have been eating. Don't forget to take your methylcobalamin shot to avoid dementia.

>>13720778
>Vegans fucking piss me off.
I honestly don't care what other people do.
Are you autistic?

i would personally have every carnist slaughtered entirely to rid our species of such a disgusting habit and save the trillions of lives

>>13728690
Buddy take a step back and look at what you are saying.

How can you hate all humans who eat meat? How can you hate humans so much? Is it because you grew up in a hardcore consumerist society where you didn't learn how to produce anything to sustain yourself with?

There are humans (who eat meat) who have helped restore the environment, and have brought back biodiversity by learning that growing and harvesting millions of acres of cash crops to feed animals and humans is horrible for the environment and that just growing lots of different types of plants in one spot and not mechanically harvesting them, but using domestic animals to manage those lands actually helps wildlife (no more having to kill pest animals using chemicals, dogs, traps, or rifles), and improves the quality of the livestock's life exponentially.

Are those people bad because they use livestock to help heal the planet?

You have no reason to be misanthropic. Humans are animals too. And like livestock, they are capable of both great and terrible things. It's all about how humans are raised and managed. We can heal.

>>13728690
Perfect example of a demonic vegan. Luckily for flat Earth you are only a danger to yourself.

>>13728690
based. where can I apply for the killing squad? We could maybe even turn the ones that arent obese into meat. One last "meat feast"

>>13728774
>>13728690

Oh no! The vegans are getting uppity and daydreaming again! Have pity and someone throw those malnourished souls a bone!

>>13728785
Oh nooo, the American is hungry and lusts for more calcium, quick, bring it the chicken wangs.

>>13728774
Start with your own family. All of them except you are meat eaters most likely.

>>13728774
Calm down Mr Lanza.

>>13728815
>>13728834
>start with your own family. A-ll *burp* of them are meat eaters most likely

>>13720778
Veganism is a mental illness

>>13728878
>that pencil neck
ew.
I'm a girl btw.

>>13728883
I think that might be a girl too.

>>13728883
sure you are incel.

>>13728906
Have sex, loser.

>>13728868
Even the gluttonous fat slob in your picture will be healthier than a vegan lol.

>>13728878
What's he going to do if he finds out he still contributes to animals death and suffering?

https://theconversation.com/ordering-the-vegetarian-meal-theres-more-animal-blood-on-your-hands-4659

>>13728868
And thanks for demonstrating once again how astonishingly stupid vegans are. The obese man in your image got obese from eating a plant based junk food diet. If he threw away the bun, the fries and the sodas and ate only the burger it would be impossible to be obese.

Veganism has nothing to do with you, just like any other lifestyle. Do you take away someone's kids because you dislike reproducing? The logic there is the same.

If you dislike it just buy double the steak and feed it to someone who likes meat too, just like you already do

this is the dumbest thread I've seen in a long time

>>13729071
>>13729070
See my post

Agreed, op can still eat his meat. The logic here doesnt make sense

>>13729194
Veganism is an aggressive starvation cult. The entire focus of the vegan cult is taking away our healthy food by law, propaganda, tax or any other means. I don't gaf what vegans eat, but please don't force me into your starvation cult.

>>13721423
>the literal opinions of an ignorant child

>>13729194
i meant the whole thread and everyone in it. including me for reading it and replying

>>13720778
>Supporting animal slaughter does not make me any less moral
Only vegans can be moral human beings.