/ck/ - Food & Cooking

>>13304736
Vegans kill way more animals than meat eaters anyway. It’s a death cult for white girls and gays mainly.

Most people dont care. It is easy when you just buy end products.

>>13304767
Maybe we've been so removed that we "forget" that steak came from a whole living creature

>>13304736
Because you’re not insane

>>13304736
You are not supposed to feel bad. It's all just propaganda and pop-sci philosophy. People and naimals always have eaten other animals. It's the cycle of life here on earth. Nothing to feel about.

Don't listen to ethical vegans.

>>13304736
Because I am at the top of the food chain.

>>13304802
i also cope by saying that the animals are livestock and are just born to be harvested
>>13304804
no we're not, moreso in the middle, ironically alongside pigs

>>13304736
>why don't I feel bad about eating animals? I know I should
>i know i should

how do you know?

>>13304736
I dont care nigger its all fuel for me to function thats what animals are. And since im above them in the animal kingdom i get to eat them.

>>13304832
never forget
>full fat milk or bust

>>13304809
>cope
there is nothing to cope faggot. Stop getting shamed by jewish vegan propaganda

It means you have a healthy brain chemistry/psychology and don't over-empathize with livestock like a child

>>13304832
This.

what I don't understand is how most hunters have to justify themselves to others and vegans saying that they actually care for the animal and have deep respect/give the animal a "ceremony" to honor it.
I think that's just horeshit and they actually just shoot the thing and take it like it's just an average day. That's how I would feel at least; I will not lose a wink of sleep over killing some dumb bear and the cubs for example (fuck bears)

>>13304736
desu I felt the same way when I went vegan, nowadays I actually do care about the animals too. Watching Dominion helped quite a bit too.
At the time I just decided that an animals life isn't worth more than quick sensory pleasure.

>>13304736
It's in your DNA, you can't express it but you inherently recognize that it's just your food and certain animals are your designated prey in the food web, same way you can instinctively realize danger when made aware of a predatory animal eyeing you down. It's only in recent times as food sources and selection became so abundant that humans began questioning their genetic memory and tried to see all animals as being above livestock, especially so when people began abstaining from meat altogether and found they could still stay healthy and fed.
That said pure veganism doesn't work. You cut out too many food groups and end up malnourished unless you either use supplements or gorge on imitations of the food your diet is supposed to avoid, and those are just plant matter laced with supplements and chemicals thrown on for flavor/color. Vegetarian is far more doable, more so if you add eggs because then you're just eating a European farmer's typical diet.

>>13304893
I get what you are saying. But come on man. Hunting animals without making any use of them is just stupid and should be forbidden.
By the way fuck you, bears are great.

>>13304922
>designated prey in the food web
interesting take, im predator and they are prey

>>13304932
bears are fuckwits. They think they're all bad because they can run and swim well (apparently they can climb too?) but get become cowards once they realize that they might not win a fight.
I will admit that Grizzlies are "better" than others because they're not pussies but they're just like shitbulls. Just aggressive killing machines with no real purpose but once they get their ass kicked, they pull the "oh, woe is me" schtick.

but of course I wouldn't just kill them and leave the bodies there Anon! I would take their meat and use their fur and bones for something but what my original post meant is that killing a bear would not affect me.

>>13304736
why do muslims and some jews avoid eating this delicious animal meat?
>inb4 pigs eat feces
so do most livestock

>>13304947
A bear would kick your ass in a fair fight.>>13304947

>>13304888
>jewish

jews believe animals are "elevated" if we eat them, and that eating meat is the greatest pleasure

Stop projecting your humanity onto things not human.

>>13304736
Because you're a normal human being without an empathy disorder. Everything we've been doing for thousands of years is now suddenly all wrong and needs to be changed. Welcome to 2019.

>>13304751
No they don't, but keep telling yourself that.

>>13304947
>They think they're all bad because they can run and swim well (apparently they can climb too?)
I found out that rattlesnakes can do all of this (wiggle body for run). Learning that they could swim very well, and quite fast is what made me lose all hope though.

>>13305312
>selective reality

>>13305118
The jews still want your money with their vegan propaganda.

>>13304736
>why don't I feel
How should we know? It's your life, dumbass.

>>13304736
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Eeejx97EYE0

>>13304736
the only people who unironically care about animals they'll never even meet are people who have nothing else in their lives worth caring about.

>>13304893
Actual /out/ist here.

It's pretty much this. I used to care when I was a naive 12 year old hunting with my older brother, but as you get older, you realize that's life, and you just kinda go "meh". I always go for the clean, painless shot, but it's a mixture of things, like pride at being a good shot, not wishing to ruin the hide or meat more than necessary, not wanting to chase down a wounded animal, and not wanting the animal to suffer. Not wanting the animal to suffer is an important reason, but it's not the largest reason. I've missed shots before or hunted with a bow and arrow, and watching boars suirm to death is actually really really captivating in a fascinating sort of way. It's how I imagine cats feel watching a crippled mouse trying to run away.

Nowadays when I get a kill, the only thoughts going through my mind tend to be "Aw shit I'm so comfy I don't want to carry this dude, now I know why people pay other guys to take care of the gutting and skinning and butchering process but I'm too much of a poor fag to do actually do it, oh well, it was a nice shot though, fuck yeah, I'm so good."

>>13304736
>why don't I feel bad about eating animals? I know I should, but I just simply don't care. Is it just vegan propaganda?
It's called being a bad person.
>he's no better than the average bugman

>>13305757
based neanderthal chink dabbing on them stupid defenseless birdies

>>13305364
>the jews
>not making shitloads of money with animal products.
Classic amerilard.

>>13305364
Yeah I am sure the evil joos want you to be vegan so you'll be healthy and live a longer life.

>>13305978
Good one shlomo

>>13305757

Monster didn't even consider sharing.

>>13304736
>I know I should
Why? Animals don't feel bad about eating you.

>>13304809
Who's on the top then, m8?

>>13306068
He's probably going to make some retarded argument that if you don't allow a human to use tools, then they're relatively weak. If you lobotomize any predator they'd be harmless, too. Similarly, a single ant or bee are (generally) harmless.

>>13304736
It's easy not to care with the way modern food processing works. You're mostly kept from seeing any connection between the end product and the animals who were slaughtered on an assembly line to get that product. Even the people working at slaughterhouses are strategically shielded from seeing the whole process. You can read about how modern killing floors and meat processing plants do this, it's pretty interesting. Helps the workers psychologically since almost all of them only see their little part of the job with sharp angles from each step to the next and obfuscated walled off areas separating live animal work from kill work and kill work from meat processing work.
All that said I still eat meat. I don't think it's wrong to eat meat since a lot of people realistically depend on it to be healthy (you can kind of approach the same thing as a vegan but it's not simple and most people in practice end up not succeeding and becoming malnourished).
I do think it's stupid though to not feel anything at all for animals you're getting meat from. You should at a bare minimum have some recognition these are living things like you who breathe, eat, sleep, dream, look out at the world with two eyes, feel pain, suffer, etc. I get you're cut off from reality the way food processing works but to say you feel nothing at all sounds like intentionally edgy reacting to vegans to try to prove how much you're OK to continue eating meat. In reality you can both eat meat and not be an edgy faggot about it. Just respect the animals and be more appreciative of what they're going through for our sake. Least you can do.

>>13304736
The vegan argument is that if you eat the animal, you're encouraging meat producers to come up with increasingly inhumane methods of slaughter in order to feed you.
This is obviously not true though. A single person doesn't have enough impact on the meat industry to save even one cow, let alone generate change in the industry. If you don't eat the steak, someone else will.
Even if it was a question of purchasing power, that wouldn't explain why vegans would refuse meat that was already cooked and prepared for them, like at a communal barbecue, since it would just get thrown in the trash anyway.
tl;dr there's no real reason, it's all pathos and no logos

>>13304736
I don't think eating meat should make you feel bad, it's the people that treat the livestock like shit that should make you feel bad.

>>13305028
There's no fair fight in nature, a bear use it immense strenght, we use our sticks and stones. Somehow stick and stone win, now we're at the top of the foodchain.

>>13304751
>Vegans kill way more animals than meat eaters anyway.
They don't. That bullshit about combines killing more rodents than cows killed for meat is lazy propaganda meant to make you feel like you're not only OK to eat meat but morally superior for doing so, which is stupid. And I say this as someone who eats meat every day. Stop being a faggot about it and face reality.
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0167880904002944
>The effects of corn and wheat harvest on abundance, movement, disappearance, sex ratio and age structure of Akodon azarae were studied in cropfield–border systems. Sampling occurred both before and after harvest, in crops, in their weedy margins (borders) and in surrounding areas. The abundance of A. azarae decreased in fields between before and after harvest and increased along borders. Rodents moved among habitat patches, movement being higher as a consequence of harvest. There was no difference among habitats in terms of disappearance and sex ratio but changes occurred in age structure because of harvest. In response to harvest A. azarae was able to move from crops to borders, decreasing the mortality effects. The ability to respond to habitat changes allows A. azarae to maximize fitness in periodically disturbed habitats.
tl;dr mice don't just sit there and let themselves get murdered by grain harvesters. They, believe it or not, MOVE to safer locations. Population of rodents decreases in the harvested area and increases along the borders of that area, resulting in a net population without significant change.

>>13306120
>tl;dr there's no real reason
Indeed.
It also presupposes that everyone who eats meat is part of the normal industry. That's not true. I eat meat, but I refuse to buy anything that's factory farmed. I get my meat from hunting, the one pig and the handful of chickens that I raise, and from small local farmers who I know personally.

Many meat-eaters are opposed to factory agriculture. In my case it has little to do with animal rights and everything to do with quality. Humanely raised meat tastes better than factory farmed garbage.

>>13304736
I raise chickens. I don't feel bad about slaughtering, butchering, telling crude jokes about it, but it's genuinely disheartening to see the food I raised go to waste, though I'll cut some slack for the organs none of us likes anyway. I have an aggressive rooster on death row and I might feed its heart to the rooster he attacked.

>>13306081
That's what I thought too, kek

>>13306097
Pretty much. I've hunted and butchered my own animals. I respect the fact that the animal died. But, I'm not going to go do some autistic spiritual ritual or some shit. I also don't even remotely feel bad. Predation is part of how the world works. It evolved millions of years before humans existed and it'll keep happening long after we're gone.

>>13306133
This. Now we have thunderstick and it wins even more.

>>13306144
Exactly, I'm not going to torture the poor thing, and I do want it to die a quick death, but I don't feel bad. They die so I can live.

>>13305118
>we
Shalom, Rabbi

>>13304736
You probably didn't watch enough Disney as a child.

>>13306139
>corn and wheat are the only 2 crops
>only accounts for rodents
>says nothing about the effect on birds, rabbits, moles, lizards, insects, and so on
ok buddy

>>13306120
thats not the argument at all you dumb retard.
Vegans argue for a less destructive way of life, where your existance does not require unnecessary suffering to others. If you consume meat/animal products, you are part of an industrial machine, the part that gulps down the metabolized corpses of billions of animals.
Veganism is about trying to do the right thing, because compassion and empathy with suffering beings is in fact the only humane quality when it comes to people's emotions regarding farm animals.
So why be a hypocrite when you could just drop meat and dairy and eggs? Its not like its a massive change or an unsustainable way of life.

>>13306139
facts dont sit well with the carnicucks.

>>13306447
Lmao, stop reaching for straws you phaggot.
Even if plant farming kills all these animals that you feel so sorry for, meat and dairy requires tons more of these useless animal deaths because they require a lot more feed to be grown.

>>13306451
your premise is flawed based under the assumption that farm animals are suffering while they are alive
and also that people don't hunt for their own meat at all

>>13306451
Hunting for your own food causes less net suffering than industrial agriculture.

>>13306466
also not true since there are no farms that grow feed specifically for livestock. Livestock are fed leftovers from things cultivated for humans. Where do you think your corn husks and bean stems are going?
in addition to that you're destroying the soil cycle with this monocropping you're doing
realistically the only way to fix this impending catastrophe is to put grazing livestock back on that land to replenish the soil

>>13306477
>>13306492
>>13306497
whatboutism and non arguments.
If you were actually honest with yourself you'd realise that both of your claims are untrue. Livestock do not get "leftovers" from human consumption you dumb fucking retard. Cattle are fed cheap soybeans and corn for example, all of this grown in titanic amounts in the amazonian (ex-) rainforests and the globe. Hunting will also never be able to feed even one percent of the current human population. Its just far too little animals that live in the deserts we left them after we stole the land for feed crops and cattle pastures.

>>13306576
>all this peabrain bullshit
Stop being a hypocrite. Grow your own food and raise your own livestock, you insufferable, moralizing, urban parasite.

>>13306576
>Hunting will also never be able to feed even one percent of the current human population
I'm not responsible for the rest of the human population
>stole the land
I'm curious why you think other animals have more of a claim over land than humans do?
we didn't drop here from outer space

land belongs to whomever can keep it

>>13306597
Don't you know, anon? It's fine for animals to claim territory, kill things that enter their territory, and use that territory as they see fit, but when a human does it it's unethical because we're supposed to "know better".

>>13306586
>>13306597
>t. wallshart frozen beef and chicken breast consumers

>>13304767
>>13304774
Shit, it's easier to eat them when you raise them. Most livestock are cunts. I can count on one hand all the livestock I've owned who were actually cool.

>>13306617
omg he replied to himself xd
>>13306597

Why are you meat eating faggots so hellbent on defending your morally inferior stance? You know every bit of science is against you and with every fibre of your being you feel that its wrong to eat meat for mere pleasure, and here you are, arguing like the cancerous mental children you are

>>13306619
>so desperate for moral superiority that you can't comprehend someone being better than you at your own bullshit and need to resort to using your imagination
Keep eating those soybeans, cunt.

>>13306619
unironically 90% of the meat I eat is pasture raised beef and fish I catch myself

>>13306627
>n-no more than one person can't disagree with me!
>I know I'm right! He knows I'm right too!
>He must have replied to himself! That's the only thing that makes sense!
See a doctor, living in the city has made you mentally ill.

>>13306627
>every bit of science is against you
wrong.

>>13306497
Half the grain is specifically grown for livestock feed
>addition to that you're destroying the soil cycle with this monocropping
Primarily for feed
>realistically the only way to fix this impending catastrophe is to put grazing livestock back on that land to replenish the soil
No, you need grazing buffalo, cows are not buffalo, you cant create farms either because you need to treat them in order for the grass to actually feed the fucking things sustainably enough and you need to displace predators. You let nature run its course instead of propping up some cancerous foreign livestock which uproots and degrades the soils just as much

>>13306631
Well youre a lucky man, I envy you for having such a clear vision of where your food is sourced from, most people dont,but lets not pretend that the pasture fed cattle enjoy being slaughtered.

>>13306643
>lets not pretend that the pasture fed cattle enjoy being slaughtered.
I'm sure they don't know the difference. It's a quick shot to the head, they aren't even aware it's happening

>>13306648
You can't expect a city boy to actually know anything about agriculture, anon.

>>13306648
Depends. Does the guy kill them with a gun on site? Doubtful but if you say so, I'll trust your word.
Slaugtherhouses, no matter the size or the "humane" machinery are fucking horrible and the "stun gun" more often than not, does not really make the cattle kick the consciousness bucket. The pneumatic bolts are either way too small or they just dont have enough force.

>>13306655
>you and I anon, we are the anti vegan bros
Shut the fuck up you turd, I aint your bro just because I eat meat.

>>13306666
I never said I was your buddy, faggot. Nice digits though.

>>13306655(check'd)
vs
>>13306666(Chekkk'd)

Of course you should care.

>>13306679
>Yes
Your move.

>>13306679
NOOO, NOT THE HECKING PUPPERINO! NOT THE CLOUDY WOOLEN BOY, THE EVERLASTING FLUFFERINO ;_;

>>13306686
Well, psychopaths should be locked up in mental asylums.

>>13306694
Dogs and pigs would both eat you in the wild, given the chance. Hell, a boar or a group of wild dogs would actively try to kill you. Beyond a few species domesticated for companionship or service, animals don't care about you. Stop pretending you live in a disney movie and can talk to the friendly little animals.

I eat meat and have no qualms with it. I regularly watch butchery videos to remind myself where it comes from, and I even try to reduce my overall meat consumption for health reasons.

What gets me is wasted meat. When I see huge portions of meat go into the trash, it upsets me greatly. I'd like to think that animal died for a purpose, but when its carcass goes uneaten, it is like it died for no reason at all. Not to mention the pointless environmental strain of the enormous amounts of meat going to waste.

>>13304939
>im predator and they are prey

>>13306721
>animuls dont love me so I have to eat them

>>13306750
>have to
No, I don't have to. But I see no reason not to.

>>13304736
I raise rabbits and chickens for food, and I was also a vegan for pretty much all of high school. Slaughtering and butchering my meat is never fun, but I don't pity my animals. They've lived pretty decent lives- I don't really feel like researching and spending money on antibiotics and shit, so I try my best to keep them healthy, clean, and stress-free in the hopes that they will prevent disease and give me a better product.

I feel like the average American consumer is too far removed from where their food comes from. Meat is fucking delicious, but people are raised nowadays having never seen or been involved in the processes that make it so that you can buy an animal's life for less than an hour's wages. People need to respect their food more and try their hardest to use every part of the animal.

Causing unnecessary pain and suffering is something that a decent thinking human being should at least try to avoid whenever possible.
For some people, that's being vegetarian or vegan. For others, it's buying meat from people who raise their animals well. For me, it's raising meat for myself and my partner + farmer's markets and friends in a way where we can all feel good about having done our best to minimize waste.

>>13306760
wow, what a swift an intelligent response, impressive anon, youre so funny lol

>>13306762
I can get behind that. Its just that most people pretend that thinking once a year about animal/ poor people suffering relieves them from their shitty consumerism and the affluence that they take for granted

>>13306762
What I think a lot of people forget is that vegans are a direct result of the extremely dismissive and ignorant treatment of such naturally rare and wonderful products as meat and milk for example. Veganism is a result of the industrialized food industry where morals and ethics dont matter one bit.

>>13306768
That's not an argument, but alright.

>>13306762
Based. I agree, waste is bad and people are too removed from their food. I actually don't begrudge anyone just for being vegetarian or vegan. Your diet is your business. I just hate the moralizing fucks who preach veganism as The One Truth, that anyone who let's meat cross their lips is a bad person, and that raising livestock is inherently unethical. Hell, look at some of the replies in this thread, incredulous that someone might raise their own livestock.

>>13306780
Consumerism is genuinely a plague upon society. Really, it's the same reason I have a problem with preachy vegans--they're often completely removed from their food as well. I have no issues with veganism as a diet, but when it becomes an ideology it's the same as any other vapid -ism. Grow your own food, buy local. And actually do it, don't just talk about it.

>>13306451
>If you consume meat/animal products, you are part of an industrial machine, the part that gulps down the metabolized corpses of billions of animals.
I'm perfectly aware that you see things this way, which is why I wrote
>A single person doesn't have enough impact on the meat industry to save even one cow, let alone generate change in the industry. If you don't eat the steak, someone else will.
What exactly do you believe your meat boycott is accomplishing? Are you keeping money out of the hands of the meat industry? Certainly not, they're impossibly rich even without your support.
You aren't saving animals. The only living creature directly affected by your eating habits is you. Indirectly, you affect everyone you moralize at by being an obnoxious waste of time, but that's another issue for another thread.

>>13306829
>Grow your own food, buy local. And actually do it, don't just talk about it.
Anon, youre in a luxurious position, and sure lots of vegans will never farm their own food, but not everyone has a background in agriculture and I dont think it cam be expected of everyone to become a farmer when they live and worl in a city.
I for one am currently vegan and I would probably farm my own food and animals too, but thats not an option in this stage of my life, so I eat the eggs from the chickens that my parents have. I know it sounds lame but I dont want to be a blind consumerist asshole and for me, the most consumerist way of eating food is to "just turn ur emotions off bro, its just meat".
I only recently switched due to my wife who's been vegan for 6 years now, and I always used to argue like lots of meat defenders but I just couldnt anymore, its hypocritical. Veganism also doesnt strive for perfection. Nobody can be perfect, your choices are admirable, your "self reliance" at least when it comes to a big chunk of your food is great.
I just wanted to offer some insight

>>13304774
And you're clearly so "removed" that you forgot humans have killed animals for meat for hundreds of thousands of years. Now all of a sudden it's an issue? Fuck off.

>>13306846
Nobody would attack vegans if you didnt know deep down they were right, and literally nobody forces you to post in a thread. Does my choice change something? Not on the bigger scale, but on the macro level it does, if every single human being started being at least more responsible with their decisions, the world would be a better place tomorrow dude.

>>13306858
In a fight for survival killing is your way to exist, but the obese american feasting on his 4th rack of ribs is a deranged disgusting symbol of the human and moral degradation we have went through since the industrialisation has kickstarted the immense exploitation of natural resources from mother earths womb.

>>13306858
So if I rape you is that cool? Its a millenias old concept

What if veganism is just the result of a highly developed parasite that alters your brain chemistry in a way that you're voluntarily accelerating your own death so said parasite and its offsprings can feast on your dying body?

>>13306849
Man, it doesn't take an agriculture degree to make a garden in your backyard. Even if you live in a city, nothing is stopping you from growing some herbs or tomatoes in your window. Obviously, no one can practically grow 100% of everything they need, that's why society was created. But, even doing a little bit is good.

>just turn off ur emotions
This seems like a fundamental misunderstanding. I don't need to "turn off my emotions". I just don't feel bad in the first place. It's the natural order of things. Not to attack you, but I've found that usually the only people who think you need to "turn off your emotions" to eat meat are people who live in the city and have basically no interaction with animals beyond their pet dog. The idea that, as at least one retard in this thread suggested, you're a psychopath or hunting or raising livestock for slaughter suggests that thousands of years of humans were all psychopaths because they didn't cry when they stuck an arrow in a boar. It's pure projection. Respect your kills, don't waste things, but beyond that its just weird.

>>13306861
>why don't I feel bad about eating meat?
>why would you, there's nothing wrong with it
>vegan enters, begins screeching
>fuck off retard
>YOU WOULDN'T ATTACK ME IF YOU DIDN'T KNOW I WAS RIGHT
k

>>13306910
That parasite is called estrogen, really dangerous.

>>13306861
>non-argument

>>13306912
>>13306927
vegans make a thread about vegan cooking only for 50 percent of the posts being losers just like you. Faggots that come into a thread just to shit on other people. /pol/cel mentality

>>13306861
>Nobody would attack vegans if you didnt know deep down they were right,
I have vegetarian and vegan friends that I get along with perfectly fine because they don't throw an embarrassing bitch fit every time they see a hamburger. I'm not "attacking vegans," I'm responding to the ridiculous assertion that the world would be a better place if I stopped eating meat. It wouldn't change anything for the animal, and it would make my diet more limited and less enjoyable.
>literally nobody forces you to post in a thread.
I'm having fun, lol. If this was upsetting me I'd leave.
>if every single human being started being at least more responsible with their decisions, the world would be a better place tomorrow dude.
Convince everyone else first and then get back to me.

>>13306920
So what's your excuse for your gyno?

>>13306936
so youre a literal child? A pleasure seeking hedonistic little faggot that only cares about himself. Gotcha

>>13306934
I've never posted in a vegan thread, but aight. You guys can talk about your shit all you want. As I said before, I have absolutely nothing against vegetarianism/veganism as a diet. Eat what you want, it's none of my business.

>>13306941
>no sauce
Yeah, sure

>>13306936
>ITS BETTER CAUSE I SAY SO
Ok boomer.
>i cant eat my meaties =<
God forbid you expand your culinary senses and palate. God forbid someone's suffering is placed above your hedonism

>>13306941
>44% protein
Who the fuck does this? Even people who eat low carb diets get the majority of their calories from fats, not proteins.

>>13306934
>i-i-its /pol/ fault
Cope

>>13306955
>God forbid you expand your culinary senses and palate
>If you enjoy meat it means you hate vegetables
Do you have brain damage?

>>13306951
>F-Fake news!!!
Cope

>>13306963
Do you? Because I didnt say anything close to that you dumb faggot.

>>13306963
>>13306958
>>13306956
cope cope cope your thread, up and down the stream.

>>13306946
>>13306955
And now we've hit the point where you've proven yourselves too retarded to form an argument. I won't reply to you anymore, but you can go ahead and ponder the following until you give up and decide I'm a mean old boomer fag for daring to ask it:
If you refuse to eat a cow, but it's slaughtered anyway and its meat is thrown in a dumpster to rot, who did you help?

>>13306981
Then please, elaborate how anon eats meat because he's afraid of expanding his palate.

>>13306985
SUPPLY AND DEMAND YOU DUMB FUCKING FAGGOT!
Dont you understand that your consumer "decisions"(more like conditions) are having a direct and measurable albeit small impact on a global scale?
Holy fuck, even shit like basic economics is too hard for carnicucks with their worm brains.

>>13306974
You had the benefict of the doubt, but now I'm sure you're a lying faggot.

>>13306983
>get called a retard
>no argument
>cry cope
seethe

>>13306985
Yeah this is exactly what I expected. You say something profoundly retarded. Get corrected and not have your asinine viewpoint assauged so you curl up like a bitch and cry. Eat shit.

>>13306985
throwing away the "surplus" is the way of the capitalist system, which always has to supply more of any good than could actually be required

>>13306992
I didnt say that either. Maybe you should stop being an emotional little girl and fabricating arguments no one else made. But that would require you to put the fork down and not be such a little bitch and you don't want that.

>>13307008
>vegan and a communism
The jokes write themselves

>>13306998
Benefict? Cool story low T asshurt, sis.

>>13307013
ok Boomer

>>13307013
>God forbid you expand your culinary senses and palate.
Please, explain what you meant by this. Surely, a diet which has all vegan foods available, plus meat, offers many more options than a diet of just vegan foods.

>>13307017
>mentioning a fundamental truth about capitalism is now being a commie
For fucks sake what is it with burgers and their black and white brains?

>>13307020
>resorting to typos
The absolute state of vegan argument

>>13307027
You are acting like its the end of the world you cant possibly have your meaties and there is absolutely nothing left after that. Try actually cooking and experimenting

>>13307029
If a company throws away surplus, they will inevitably be outcompeted by a company that finds a way to profit from surplus. Throwing away surplus is throwing away capital. The only situations where this isn't the case is where the govrernment has stepped in.

>>13307035
>you

>>13307035
I also called you an asshurt little bitch. But you didn't notice that since your brain was wrapped up in trying to figure out how to spell "benefit" and think of something actually substantial to say other than crying about you having low T being fake.

>>13304809
It's natural selection and their nutrition that provided us substanence to evolve the way we did.

>>13307038
Im not the guy who posted >>13306936 but whatever. Surely, a diet that forbids meat is objectively more restricted than one that allows meat. What you're saying doesn't make sense. I can experiment with and enjoy non-mear dishes, while also eating meat because I like meat and want to continue eating it.

>>13307039
with animal products the stores usually take the hit, the slaughterhouses that sell the meat do not respond to such "small" amounts of waste. But the waste adds up

>>13307054
You can, that's clearly not the implication since again it is implied to be some disastrous thing that you can't eat meat. But definitely you've totally tried even doing any actual vegan cuisine intentionally

>>13307042
Kek
>>13307043
You should know more then me that a extra letter is not a grave sin, since you like to get the D everywhere.

>>13307067
>know more then me
Can't make this shit up. Cope harder, lardo.

>>13307067
your grammar is fucking horrible.

>>13307067
>a extra

>>13307056
Most grocery stores don't even stock undesirable animal products explicitly because they're hard to sell. Sure, waste adds up, but some waste is inevitable. Even the most experienced hunter would be hard pressed to actually use every part of the animal, and even then some of the product will go to waste from spoilage. But, grocery stores try pretty hard not to let food go unsold since that's directly cutting into profits. Manager's special, and all.

>>13307062
>I eat both vegan dishes and meat
>Nuh uh you're lying
If you're just going to accuse me of being a liar, then this discussion isn't worth having. Feel free to respond gloating about how you won, or whatever.

>>13307085
I didn't call you a liar. You lied about what I originally said. I implied you clearly don't bother experimenting cooking vegan cuisine of your own. A claim you only now refute. Its also a microscopic point within my original argument but it's clearly the easiest for you to bitch, moan, and pretend you engaged the whole argument about.

>>13307085
the undesirable parts are used to make pet food and fertilizer

>>13306893
rape has never been as well accepted as killing animals and eating them has though. terrible comparison, retard

>>13307070
>>13307080
You won this time, faggot. I'll give you that.
>>13307078
Tbh I never had a english class in my life. Most of my knowledge comes from vidya and shitposting.

>>13307085
>"Households are wasting around 570,000 tonnes of fresh meat each year, with a value of £1,300 million, and nearly half of it could be used. According to new book Farmageddon, that's about 50 million chickens, 1.5 million pigs and 100,000 beef cattle. Globally it's close to 12 billion animals"
I am pretty sure that stores either have a huge number themselves, or the "waste" exists due to the stores selling the animal products for so cheap.
Capitalism doesnt work under any scope other than profit maxxing, and even then profits are kept (private), losses are shared (with the taxpayers)

>>13307110
I'm aware. That's kind of my point. It's not like slaughterhouses just throw undesirable bits away. Some waste is inevitable, but it's not some fundamental function of capitalism that companies make load of waste and just toss it. You'd be a very bad capitalist if you did that, just leaving money on the table.

>>13307122
Ah, so you mean the consumers are the ones wasting things. Yes, that's a more fair point. Typically when I hear people say things like this it's, "those evil companies wasting things".

Typically, things being "too cheap" is a result of govenrment subsidies, which you'd find most self-proclaimed hands-off capitalists to be opposed to. I know I am. Subsidies shouldn't exist. Hell, a lot of modern subsidies work by the government buying up excess production and it often goes to waste. If not for that government intervention, business would be forced to produce less in order to match the true demand, or they'd end up out of business. So, ironically, I'd argue that less government intervention and more free market would actually adjust for what you identify as a problem. With fewer subsidies, prices would go up, and people would be less likely to waste.

>>13307115
>its old therefore good!!
>o-okay it needs to be arbitrary s-socially acceptable, retard!!
Sure got me!

>>13307197
>okay it needs to be socially acceptable
Yes.

>>13307216
>appeals to historicity of certain behaviour
>then drops that argument as soon as it is exposed as faulty
>now its socially acceptable
the constant goalpost shifting is fucking tiring. Cant you actually make any decent argument other than your self indulgent personality and your inability to not be a hedonistic pleasure seeking coombrain?

>>13307115
Not quite true. There was a time when conquering armies were given free license to rape the women of areas that they conquered.

>>13307238
Yet another reason for why meat eating is based. Massrape and "meating" go hand in hand then.

>>13307248
vegan bitches are infertile

>>13306068
https://www.npr.org/sections/thesalt/2013/12/08/249227181/between-pigs-and-anchovies-where-humans-rank-on-the-food-chain

>>13307263
This doesnt answer his question

>>13307257
Kek, based meatcel ;^)

>>13307223
>historicity of certain socially acceptable behaviours
It's not that hard.

>>13307263
What an absolutely silly argument. They're basically just saying humans aren't obligate carnivores. The fact remains that humans can and do eat and actively hunt just about everything and anything, and no species in particular actively preys on humans.

>>13307285
Well then its not a fucking argument at all. You cant appeal to historicity of socially acceptable behaviours when you look at modern ill doings

>>13304736
cause you've got no connection with most animals
would you eat your own pet
or a pet type animal, dogs,cats etc

empathy extends to line of sight for most

>>13305757
IF YOU EAT THEM LIKE THAT YOU CANT TURN THEM INTO MAO FOR A REWARD

Modern humans have an extremely unhealthy relationship with death.

>>13307276
>I can just deny facts with my alt-facts
Hellloooo, Kelly Anne!

>>13307291
I'm pretty sure a hungry mountain lion is not gonna see a human being and say "oh shit, that's a human, he'll fuck me up with his 4in wide hands and stubby legs"

>>13307590
That's why we invented weapons.

>>13304736
Only Hindus and libshits

>>13307590
>>13307594
Yeah, we invented weapons and now we actively kill mountain lions that come near our territory, and most predators have learned fucking around near humans is risky.

I'm >>13306985. That was my last post in the thread. It looks like a few people confused some other guy for me, even though I said I wasn't going to reply any more.
Just wanted to clear that up. I'm still not responding to anyone else's posts.

>>13307590
They actually do, desu. Imagine growing up only seeing four-legged furry creatures and all of a sudden a wild naked lanklet fuck appears. Most animals are scared of us, either by learned instinct or by being spooked by our unorthodox appearance.

>>13304947
Just an aside, my hunter friends say that bear meat isn't palatable for much of the year.

>>13304736
you've been conditioned to not feel bad

humans as we know them have been eating animals for their entire lifespan
changing this is the first step to making people transhuman slaves for the elite
eat your bugs and SOY goyim

>>13308089
Cool story, serial killing rapist

>>13304736
Yeah it sucks they gotta die, but they're not dying in vain. I feel bad when I gotta toss good meat, the animal died for nothing

>>13308099
make sure to eat a double serving of bugs

>>13304751
>>13306139
almost all plants use pesticides/herbicides/insecticides.

grass-fed cows require none of those.

therefore grass-fed meat and dairy causes less deaths/suffering

>>13308875
Most people don't consider one instance of any given species of literally any life form on the planet as interchangeable with any other one instance of any other given species.
There's usually a sliding scale of some sort everyone has some sense of. If there's even anyone alive today who sincerely believes a mosquito is completely equal to a horse I can at least feel pretty safe in assuming that person isn't here on this board right now. Technically Jains *might* have teachings that support this sort of view, but I doubt even they really take it that literally to where they see no difference at all between a cockroach and a cow.

>>13308875
>>13308891
PS: I eat meat if that matters to you. Eat it more than any other kind of food in fact. But this calling people who don't eat meat worse morally because they're killing insects argument is dopey.

>>13308891
Why is a cow's life worth more than a mouse's? How many mice are "equal" to a cow? How is that not speciecism?

>>13308875
Completely untrue. The grass gets treated, the feed they inevitable finish on is grown and treated. They will displace and hunt other animals around the pasture. It takes up more land, takes more time and is less efficient as a source of feeding a populace

The pollution is self explanatory

My fat Philosophy professor tried to guilt us into becoming vegans today.

>>13308107
Dont know why youre complaining since thats part of the rape and murder of animals thats been happening for millennia you approve of.

>>13308936
>The grass gets treated,
even if it does, do you really think they use anywhere near the amount of pesticides/insecticides compared to plants farmed for human food?

there are grass-finished cows

even the grain finished eat plant byproducts that are inedible by humans

plant farming displaces many more animals and cause way more pollution. cows can co-exist with many species.

if you really care about animals you should eat free range grass fed animal products. end of story.

>>13308956
>if
It does, and its plenty
>there are grass-finished cows
Almost all finished on grain to fatten them up
>even the grain finished eat plant byproducts that are inedible by humans
Ok and?
>plant farming displaces many more animals and cause way more pollution. cows can co-exist with many species
Plants have a fraction of the waste and emissions. Coexisting doesnt mean much in this case when natural habitats are being displaced for invasive cattle that overgraze and uproot. You need to protect them and the grasslands from pests if you want any efficiency

Free range grass provides no protections and is ridiculously ineffectient

>>13308938
I'm impressed by any actual vegans who manage to maintain a normal or greater than normal body weight. Most of them just seem to waste away like they're basically not eating any real food of substance at all a la starving Africans kidding themselves with dirt cakes.

>>13304736
because animals eat animals

>>13309082
>Ok and?
human food is worth much more than its byproduct (animal feed). You can't blame the kills caused by soy farming on animal ag when you eat tofu and soy oil from the same plants.
> You need to protect them
only from their predators (wolves, bears etc)
Cows eat small animals themselves opportunistically, don't really need to protect the grasslands aggressively

new regenerative practices makes grass fed cows and their products carbon negative (see white oak pastures)

>tfw eat meat out of spite
i wish i was being ironically edgy but i need some outlet for my malicious behaviour so i eat meat

>>13308938
Philosophy classes are fun, but don't ever take after a philosophy teacher. They're all walking bundles of regret.

>>13308956
The ironic thing about this image is that it should be labeled as BEFORE and AFTER. All arable land that turns infertile due to agriculture, is either sold to construction companies given the opportunity, or simply used as grazing land.

>>13304736
the arguments always come down to appeals to emotion on the vegan side, and appeals to nature on the omnivore side. i side with the latter because its stupid to jump through hoops to avoid a nutritional deficiency such as b12

>>13305978
>vegan
>longer life
That's why I hate vegans. Kys you faggot. If you actually read studies and went thourgh researches etc. you would know you are full of shit.
I really hate vegans. I can't comprehend the mental gymnastics their brain must do to get absolutely this retarded. Fuck you and fuck all what you believe and stand for.
Cocksuckers.

>>13306097
Underrated post

>>13310191
Imagine getting this mad just because a group of people with better self control live a healthier life than you.

>>13310199
>healthier life
And again, absolute retard, that's why people shouldn't listen to you. Go neck yourself.

>>13309371
Is this a fucking joke? If you eat meat you are taking B12 supplements, just in the meat

>>13310201
Why so angry? Too much meat in your system?

>>13310224
>someone telling lies
>"why angry bro :D"
Back to discord

>>13310203
These can only be digested by cattle. And this only happens to feedlot cattle at the end of their life due to how deficient soy meal and corn silage are.

>>13310237
Its pretty clear cut though, carnicucks die 5-10 years earlier on average

>>13304751
That’s peta, vegans are just retards

>>13310559
She's referring to the complete genocide of fieldmice and other animals that get mangled into paste by the combine come harvest time, which vegans handwave as "acceptable deaths" because they're "unintentional"

>>13310566
A non vegan diet will kill many more of the "poor field mice" you dumb fucking faggot. Stop with this "pasture fed" cattle meme, barely none of them are only fed on gras and hay, you deluded little bitch.

>>13310566
Oh yeah, vegans do approve of more animals dying to crop management than all living farm animals combined, that’s true.

>>13310577
There is meat grown noncruelly, there is not crops grown noncruelly. The only way to avoid animal suffering is to only eat free range meat.

>>13310577
I always love this vegan fantasy land where no one buys local, ethically-raised meat or, god forbid, raises their own livestock. Anyone who eats meat MUST be eating mass factory grown meat. We both agree that livestock raise enmasse in factories is bad for a variety of reasons. The different is you're an absolutist zealot who needs to do mental gymnastics to justify why anything outside of his lifestyle is evil. Stay mad.

>>13310577
>you deluded little bitch.
Irony

>>13310585
>>13310606
>>13310630
samefag

>>13308938
Kek typical

>>13304818
I've actually thought about it. I think the philosophy holds water, but idgaf. Philosophy doesn't taste like a medium rare steak

>>13308912
>speciecism
Fucking hell

I eat an animal based ketogenic diet because it makes mosthe sense based on the science I've read, I don't care about the animals either.

>>13305757
Stop eating meat fellow white people you don't want to be like those subhuman <insert race> do you?

>>13306457
Hello future ex vegan, how's this for facts

https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/animals-and-us/201412/84-vegetarians-and-vegans-return-meat-why

>>13310826
Most vegans here are just trolls tho

>>13310829

>>13306679

>>13310829
Nah, there's a concerted push by veganfags all across the media. Look at all the shit spewed about it in the British press, on college campuses in the U.S., and online in places like this. It's being done deliberately, just like all the "climate change" bullshit.

In a rational world, would the media go around bleating incessantly about Saint Greta? Stupid girl with obvious mental deficiency berating world leaders because her parents kept scaring her about how she was going to burn to death in a worldwide heat wave. So, instead of flying to the U.S. and then back to Europe, she TAKES A SAILBOAT and has SIX PEOPLE ON TWO CREWS fly back and forth, thus generating more than six times the amount of waste heat and CO2, all so she can virtue-signal about "look at me, I took a sailboat, everyone should do this and save the fucking planet!"

And then there's all the "muh transsexuals" bullshit and mental illness. Trying to get impressionable kids to mutilate their reproductive organs so that they won't ever be able to have children. I mean, fine, stupid people should just die off anyway, but the way they're going about it is just plain sick.

Same with David Brock / Media Matters and the total hijacking of political discourse on Twitter, Reddit, and Facebook. Not even to mention the destruction of our former sister site that began with the numeral 8. (Don't know if you can type the name now without the post getting censored, they were doing that on some boards for a while.)

They're doing their utmost to brainwash people. Outlets like 4chan are our last hope to spread truth and stop the brainwashing. I'm not even joking.

>>13310913
>human influenced global warming is fake
Oh look, it's literally retarded!

>>13304774
Only if you're retarded. Do you forget that your broccoli was a living plant, too?

>>13304736
Because you are a normal human being that can separate his instinct from his Disneyfied feelings.

>>13311036
Yeah except that broccoli feels no pain and isn't sentient as opposed to cattle, poultry, pigs etc.

>>13311475
I don't care if they feel pain. That's not relevant to knowing the your steak came from a living cow. Where else would it come from?

>>13311479
*beef steak of course

>>13310558
there is no data anywhere to show this

I'm not really against meat consumption for moral reasons except for pigs because of their intelligence. Cows, Chickens, Turkeys, Fish, Shellfish, etc. are absolutely retarded and not of any moral relevance. They are unable to participate in any kind of moral exchange. Pigs can participate on a lesser capacity than humans, much like dogs.

I do oppose the level of meat consumption we have currently for environmental reasons and health reasons. I believe we should all reduce our meat consumption. The modern american diet in particular is fucking comically meat filled. We stuff our fat faces with it constantly and it has shown to fuck with people's health. As for environmental the impact of large scale cattle farming is well known, if you don't know just look at Brazil. I advocate more for either vegetarianism, as egg & milk production are FAR more sustainable than meat production, or meat eating with a much reduced meat intake. The majority of meat consumed should be fish & poultry or wild game (hunted at a sustainable level). If I had to point a single finger I would point it towards the beef industry. I myself eat meat once a week with the majority of my meals being vegetarian.

Veganism however is retarded. It takes the moral high ground to a comical level (no eggs, dairy, bees wax, shellfish, etc.) and completely deflates their own points.

>>13311545
Based reasonable middle ground anon, acknowledging and responding to problems with the meat industry without needlessly becoming a martyr

>>13311545
So we should eat babies because they're less intelligent than pigs? Gotcha

>>13311545
Absolutely based & centerist pilled

>>13311669
Of all the retarded counter points you could have tried to make this is probably the worst. How the fuck did you post that and think anyone would take you seriously?

>>13311688
The person I replied to literally believes that intelligence is the metric by which you decide what lifeforms to kill and eat. It's a completely fair point.

>>13311695
Babies will become as intelligent as any other human. Your argument is not equivalent and is retarded. Your argument is extrapolating something basic to a retarded nonsense point.

>>13311722
So what you're saying is that we should deliberately breed mentally disabled humans and harvest their meat and organs

>>13304802
Humans kill each other too but a lot of what we do is working to prevent death from happening too much. It's normal to feel that something is wrong with the scale of animal slaughter with modern factory farming. And while it's natural to eat meat and when a slaughter goes perfectly the animal pretty much experiences minimal discomfort and never knew it was coming, but when it gets fucked up and the animal starts freaking out, that should be something that maybe causes a pang of guilt. It's partially why people have been trying to come up with the best way to slaughter an animal as quickly and painlessly as possible.

>>13311847
>hey what about [extreme theoretical scenario that is out of the scope of the argument]
You sure showed him!

>>13311874
Why not just have consistent morals instead?

>>13311871
>animal pretty much experiences minimal discomfort
This is as fucking joke right?

>>13311847
I'm sure nigger slavery was banned years ago.

>>13311901
Morals that do not change when applied to comical extremes do not exist and do not reflect our society. You're asking for philosophical morality that need not ever meet real world scenarios. If you want to jack off to kantian ethics then go ahead.

>>13311947
It's not a comical extreme. If intelligence is the determining factor for which animals we can unnecessarily exploit, then there is no reason we couldn't also exploit humans below that intelligence line.

>>13304736
>Is it just vegan propaganda?
Yes.

>>13311916
>Factory farming is a thing world wide
Wrong, pretty much all of Europe have far far stricter animal welfare laws than pretty much the whole world. Especially Scandinavia, you won't see a single farm animal raised like "that", well, except chickens, but who cares about those brainlet birds.

>>13311916
He didn't say animals experience minimal discomfort in modern industrial farming, idiot. Read the post again, but rub both your brain cells together this time.

>>13312027
You are entirely deluded. Sure, Europe is somewhat more stringent (look up the guidelines: they legislate e.g. a minimum space for animals so they can physically turn around. But they are still live their entire live in grated cages). But most meat still comes from factory farms here. Your local meat industry has apparently successfully propagated the image of most meat coming from "small local farms".

>>13311847
I want to break this down from your POV, really dig into the core of why you're here, so you can understand what a fucking moron you are.
You don't want animals to suffer. You believe that meat eaters cause animals to suffer. You want to convince the meat eaters in this thread to stop eating meat. Your posts are the medium by which you'll convince them.
But, of all the arguments you could've made, you chose this one. HURR IF YOU EAT COW WHY NOT EAT A RETARDED BABY. That's what you went with. Do you really think anyone is going to change their entire diet because you brought up genetically altered low IQ infant meat, you goddamn caricature of an obnoxious vegan? What purpose does this serve.
Fuck you. I was going to have potatoes tonight, but now I'm going to a restaurant and ordering a juicy steak, because your posts are that shitty. Shut up.

>>13312062
this is some next level asspain

>>13304736
>Vegan propaganda
Yes, you are a natural predator. The concept of pure veganism has only been allowed to flourish because of how far we've been removed from nature. Now that it's been said, get your hunting license and prove you are at the top of the food chain.

>>13312062
notice the lack of counter argument

>>13312074
I need to buy a bolt action. I own an AR but PA is retarded so you're not legally allowed to hunt with semiautos. Fucking fudds.

>>13312074
>people who only eat plants are removed from nature
>hunting animals with a fucking gun is not removed from nature

wut

>>13312103
A counter argument requires you have an argument worth countering.

>>13312062
Also notice he is attacking someone who argues for a majority vegetarian diet, someone who he should consider a moderate or even an ally.

>>13312126
why would any vegan ally with someone who advocates for rape, torture, and killing of animals by the billions and their argument is "they're dumb so it's ok"

>>13311847
Why would we do that? Honestly there would be nothing ethically wrong with that, assuming they truly don't have an human-level consciousness, but it seems far less efficient than conventional livestock.

>>13312131
for organ transplants

>>13312130
Because on the scale of things he is far closer to your position than most. If you are unable to compromise and make allies in any way your ideology is dead in the water.

Besides, are you really trying to argue shellfish, bees, and most fish are morally relevant? Provide an argument for a clam's moral relevancy.

>>13312137
It's easier to just grow them outside the human instead of trying to create mentally incapacitated humans to grow them inside of.

>>13312062
Based and wholepicturepilled

>>13304736
This post reeks to slave morality
>NOOOO YOU CAN'T KILL ANIMALS EVEN IF WE NEED THEM TO EAT

>>13312137
Most people would have a problem with deliberately removing the potential intelligence of a fetus via genetic modification. Not that I particularly do, I'm in favor of genetic engineering and I don't have ethical hang-ups regarding zygotes because they're not at all sapient, but I can understand why people would have the attitude they do.

All that said, that's why they're currently trying to grow organs from stem cells, it bypasses most potential ethical objections.

>>13312153
So if sapience is what causes a moral hangup for you, how do you justify eating meat and fish?

>>13312146
>we need to eat animals
??

>>13312157
Animals with no higher thought processes need not be considered for moral relevancy. The vast majority of fish don't meet that cut off. The cut off being ability to engage in moralistic cooperation with others, this is different than goal based cooperation.

>>13312176
That's a ridiculous arbitrary bar to set. Why do you get to make the call on what animals are 'smart' enough to deserve life when you could just not kill anything that wants to live and be left in peace? You do not need fish to survive, period. Why should an animal have to die for your sensory pleasure?

>>13312157
Specifically the thing I care about is metacognition, but it's generally easier to just say sapient. Anyway, as far as we know, no creature other than humans is metacognizant. There some evidence to suggest that maybe dolphins and some other primates might be, but nothing concrete. The only other animals that we can be sure we're metacogizant were our close homo relatives, by they're all extinct.

>>13312175
Being vegan or even vegetarian comes with several disadvatages you have to compensate with artificial products

>>13312199
That's blatantly not true.

>>13312191
Because my sensory pleasure is more important than the lives of beings who have no capacity to act morally.

>>13312191
I really hope you don't consume coffee, chocolate, bananas and, well, basically anything that you didn't grow yourself or get straight from a highly ethical local business that sources everything locally and ethically.

>>13312207
Fish don't rape, torture, and kill humans in factory farms. They don't pay other fish to do that on their behalf either. Fish are objectively more moral than you are.

>>13312191
Most fruit you buy that isn't grown locally is probably harvested with slave labor. Don't be a hypocrite and condone human suffering while saying fucking oysters deserve life. They literally don't have brains.

>>13312157
You seem to be confusing sapient and sentient. They mean different things.

>>13312211
Ah yes. The classic 'if you contribute to some form of evil you are obligated to contribute to other forms of evil as well'. The all or nothing approach.

>>13312213
You don't understand what acting morally even means. Fish have no capacity to make moral decisions and act purely on animalistic instinct. There is no decision making process and no moral relevancy to them. Killing a fish or making it breed means nothing morally.

Doing the same to an animal who can act morally, a good example is elephants, is abominable.

>>13312220
So you're more concerned with the life of a fucking sardine than the human slave labor associated with coffee, chocolate, and bananas? If it's so important to you to limit suffering then why don't you do something more productive than being a whiney bitchy vegan who can't justify their moral relativity.

>>13304736
>why don't I feel bad about eating animals? I know I should
Who told you that, They are lying.

>>13312206
Yes it is. Vegans literally need supplements to not develop issues with malnutrition. Vegetarians don't have as many issues because eggs and cheese aren't too far off from meat but they can still develop some problems with things like iron levels.

>>13312213
Explain how clams, oysters, and mussels, animals who lack brains, are morally relevant actors.

>>13312220
Is more like 'if you contribute to some form of evil you don't have the moral highground', "cast the first stone" type of deal.

>>13312230
Actually I understand perfectly. Killing a thinking, feeling creature that is averse to suffering or death without a justifiable reason is morally wrong. Killing an animal for survival such as preventing starvation or in self defense is morally justifiable. Killing an animal because it tastes good is not morally justifiable. The line you choose to draw is pure mental gymnastics. Just because an animal evolved to be less social doesn't justify exploiting it's life for your personal needless pleasure.

>>13310203
not with grass-fed beef. only in beef fed garbage corn and soy

I can’t take seriously anyone who says we shouldn’t eat chickens that hasn’t raised them. Chickens are mean spirited retards who will kill each other because they find a chicken ugly. Hen pecked is a term for a reason.

>>13312272
Humans kill each other for even stupider reasons and we don't eat humans you dumb fuck

>>13312266
>I have mental gymnastics
Yet you’re arguing animals without brains and no capacity for reasoning, period, are of moral relevancy.

>>13312280
Quote the post where I specifically mention animals without brains

>>13312278
The only reason we don’t eat humans is because we taste worse than pork and are hard to raise.

>>13312266
If they're not metacognizant, they're on the menu, bud. I'm starting to think that you might qualify.

>>13312280
>because clams don't have brains, it's ok to rape, torture and kill cows

>>13312286
You have raised argument with posts mentioning shellfish. It is implicitly part of your argument, as well as part of vegan doctrine to not eat them.

>>13312052
>Europe is somewhat more stringent
The situation is obviously not ideal down on the continent, but is far better than the rest of the world. I however live in Norway, and know for a fact that the situation here is paradise compared to even mainland Europe.

Sheep, cattle and pigs come from farms with plenty of space for the animals, and yes, for almost have the year they are kept in "cages", for a good reason, it is fucking cold outside. Now how are they treated during the warmer months you might ask? Well cows graze outside, those raised for meat roam all summer, while those kept for milking graze during mid day, except for milking hours.
Sheep graze all summer pretty much unsupervised, you can find plenty of footage showing grazing Norwegian sheep sleeping in the road and so one, same goes for goats.
Pigs obviously don't graze, but have plenty of space, as keeping them in "their own shit" is illegal. And as such we don't have any problems with parasites infesting pigs meat.

I'll agree that chickens are kept packed together tight, but this is for a reason, as they have plenty of natural predators which would devastate any free roaming population of chickens. And they are predators, should one die, the others will consume the corps.

t. Uncle runs his own farm of 100+ Norwegian Red, and his next door neighbor has 100+ sheep.

>>13312280
is this the most blatant dodging of a point ever in the history of 4chan?

>>13306861
>Nobody would attack X if you didnt know deep down they were right, and literally nobody forces you to post in a thread.
Where X is equal to
>flat earthers
>anti vaxxers
>literally any political movement

The vegan is retarded, go figure.

>>13312292
So I’m this guy here >>13311545. Honestly you read like a parody of a vegan but I will address some of this. I do say intelligence is needed for this, being adverse to death is not a good cut off for whether we eat it or not. Plants are adverse to death and fight for their lives, albeit in a less obvious manner, and so one would need to not eat them if using the argument of ‘adverse to death means we shouldn’t eat it’.

I use a cut off of being able to understand moral exchange. This is something we have observed in dogs behaviorally. Dogs understand the concept of fairness. There are other animals who do the same and I am against eating any of them. Animals who have no concept of morality can’t interact with morality and are not moral agents. If you are not a moral agent then your pain is not relevant to moral agents as you can’t participate in any back and forth with a moral agent.

I don’t think we should torture non-moral actors for fun, I honestly think that’s silly, but their existence and pain has no moral bearing. Cows are in a nebulous zone. I have taken care of them in the past and have done some research into it and they display no higher moral awareness.

Ability to participate morality is my cut off and it a hard cut off. Some animals can and some animals can’t and there is enormous amounts of studies into this for different animals.

>>13312322
>Plants are adverse to death and fight for their lives
It this for fucking real

>have taken care of them in the past and have done some research into it and they display no higher moral awareness.
You display no higher moral awareness. Cows are capable of suffering. Needlessly inflicting suffering is wrong. Plants are not capable of suffering. It's literally that simple.

>>13312339
Define suffering.

>>13312112
Humans have been hunting with tools for literally over a million years.

>>13312339
So, if suffering is the issue, then if I raise an animal naturally, then cleanly kill it so it feels no pain, it's okay to eat the meat? That doesn't sound very vegan of you.

>>13312346
The state of undergoing pain, distress, or hardship. Open a dictionary dummy

>>13312339
>It this for fucking real
Yes it is. Plant’s struggle for life may not be obvious because they do not move but they struggle to survive. Plants defend themselves, attack rivals, fight for resources, etc. they simply do this on a different time scale than animals.

>You display no higher moral awareness. Cows are capable of suffering. Needlessly inflicting suffering is wrong. Plants are not capable of suffering. It's literally that simple.
Suffering is not of any relevance if the being suffering is not a moral actor. Yes they have negative stimuli responses but it doesn’t mean anything in the same way a plant having a negative stimuli response does not. Arbitrarily calling it suffering doesn’t mean anything. Things that are not moral actors have no moral relevance when compared to moral actors.

>>13312357
So hunting that kills an animal instantly is fine? So a wild deer shot in the head experiences no suffering, are you ok with eating it?

>>13312309
Yes these exist, but obviously the meat even in Norwegian McDonalds burgers, even if it's from Norway, does not come from farms like your uncle's.

>>13312106
Get yourself an old surplus rifle, like a K98, dirt cheap, reliable and durable.

>>13312112
>People who only eat plants are removed from nature
There has never been a tribe that only ate plants, and the nutrient rich plants of today were mostly made trough selective breeding.
Also taking into account vegans eat plants shipped from all over the world in a desperate attempt to ward of malnourishment.

>Hunting animals with a fucking gun is not removed from nature
The gun is just the modern successor of the crossbow, bow, spear, pointed stick and stones, a result of our superior brainpower trough the consumption of nutrient dense animal products. And most hunters hunt as a hunting party, which is just like a pre-historic hunting party, just with guns instead of pointy sticks. Quicker kills, less suffering for the animal.

>>13312355
>>13312368
This level of disingenuous is ridiculous even by 4chan standards. Did you not read the post saying that killing an animal without a justifiable cause is also wrong?

>>13312361
Plants react to stimuli. This is not experience of life or any conscious action

>Suffering is not of any relevance if the being suffering is not a moral actor
Psychopathic reductionist nonsense. Define what makes something a moral actor

>>13312379
The justifiable cause is it provides sustenance. Plants can also experience longterm distress and hardship that they struggle again, by your definition they suffer as well.

>>13312375
>m-my t-technology is natural!!!
Cringe. Who gives a fuck if theres no plant eating tribes?

>>13312379
If killing any animal without justification is wrong, why bring up ability to experience suffering as a qualifier?

>>13312383
>Psychopathic reductionist nonsense. Define what makes something a moral actor
I already have. The requirement for being a moral actor is an understanding of morality. Dogs are an example of animals proven to understand morality on a basic level.

>>13312389
You can get ample sufficient sustenance without animal death. Killing humans also can provide sustenance

Prove plants suffer or have the capability to do so

"And the fear of you and the dread of you shall be on every beast of the earth, on every bird of the air, on all that move on the earth, and on all the fish of the sea. They are given into your hand. Every moving thing that lives shall be food for you. I have given you all things, even as the green herbs"
Genesis 9:2-9:3

>>13312396
So if a human doesn't understand morality it is suitable to kill? What even is morality? Your arbitrary definition of it?

>>13312322
I just want to chime in an say I have absolutely zero respect for your definition of ethical meat consumption. I have more respect for an unapologetic meat eater as long as they don't concoct rationalizations like yours sounds like.
The qualifier should be ability to feel fear and feel pain. This is the thing that matters to humans too. Yours is sounds like utter New Age drivel.

>>13312400
"Nigger shit fart"

-Your mother

>>13312383
Even your brain is just a complex machine that responds to stimuli. Your argument makes no sense.

If it isn't metacognizant, I'm gonna eat it, and I've yet to see an argument for why I shouldn't, other than because you said so.

>>13312375
>most hunters hunt as a hunting party
For quail, pheasant and duck maybe, but not for turkey, deer or other big game, excepting inbred weak soulless southerners who have a season where they can use packs of dogs to hunt deer.

>>13312355
I am vegetarian and have little issue with this, as long as the animal has had atleast a somewhat long and very decent life.

>>13312371
>The meat in Norwegian McDonalds burgers doesn't come from farms like your uncle's
Wrong, all meat in Norwegian McDonalds burgers is locally sourced, they have their own supplier farms which sell mainly to them, which follow the same strict regulations as any other Norwegian farm. Our "FDA" is very strict on there matters, and will shut down farms in repeated violation of the rules, same goes for the Consumer Protection Authority in regards to false advertising, you can't market burgers and 100% Norwegian beef if they are 30% filler.

>>13312405
Ability to engage in moral exchanges. And the argument of a human being able to understand it is irrelevant because humans can, or are you going to bring up a theoretical 30IQ human again?

>>13312407
Eh, that’s fine. I find people who don’t draw their lines based on moral participation to be the silly ones.

>>13312415
99% (the actual statistic) of animals consumed in the united states were produced by factory farming. They lived agonizing lives of nightmare torture and pain from the day they were born.

>>13312411
It makes perfect sense. You're just dodging it. Humans and other animals experience suffering and have the capability to experience life. Plants have no such thing. You might have a peabrain but I can assure you no one else here does.

Do you promote eating infants, and the disabled because of their lack of metacognitive functioning? The argument is suffering and you hilariously continue to dodge the point or invent some autistic bullshit about plants suffering.

>>13312437
By your definition of suffering plants can suffer, you still haven’t addressed that.

>>13312421
>Eh, that’s fine. I find people who don’t draw their lines based on moral participation to be the silly ones.

It's been ages since I had philosophy 102 class, was it Kant or Hume who said it? That you should still treat "unintelligent" agents like you do intelligent agents as long as it's something the unintelligent agent wouldn't want that the unintelligent agent would inflict upon them. Obviously, neither cows nor humans want to experience pain.

Your bizarre morality argument makes absolutely zero real world sense.

>>13312437
Infants become metacognitive and most disabled are still metacognitive. If there is a human who is not then they are brain dead to the point of essentially not being human.

>>13312449
>something the intelligent agent

>>13312444
Plants don't have pain receptors, a brain, or a central nervous system. Humans do. If you stab a human in the leg they will feel immense pain. They will remember you and be afraid to see you. They will be afraid of being stabbed in the future. It's the same thing for a cow, a pig, or a chicken.

>>13312431
Metal

>>13312421
LOL all youve done is restate morality, not define it. Wtf is a moral exchange? How is suffering not a moral issue?

>theoretical!!
Thats how you test logical consistency shitbrain

>>13312391
>Who gives a fuck
You're just trolling at this point
If we evolved to eat a vegan/vegetarian diet we obviously would have eaten one at the tribal state of civilization, as it would have been superior to running around spending lots of energy trying to trap and kill animals, as opposed to picking fruits, berries and farming vegetables. Remember that agriculture has only existed for a mere 12K years.

>>13312413
>Not for turkey, deer and other big game
This obviously depends on your country m8, here in Norway it is common to hunt as a party for medium to large game, as the big game licenses are so expensive. You're also required to have a hunting dog for location injured prey on the run etc, and as such most hunt as a party. Different cultures different practices.

>>13312456
Yes, and? I’m not seeing your point. That wasn’t part of your suffering definition.

>>13312437
>This retarded infant argument again
Infants will, generally speaking, develop into functional, metacognizant adult humans. as for the disabled, they are generally still metacognizant. There are likely some who aren't, but it's hard to prove one way or the other if a specific person is, so it makes sense to err on the side of not killing then. This is categorically different from a chicken. You keep saying "suffering suffering suffering" but have yet to explain why. It isn't my fault your ideology isn't consistent, while mine is. You can should that the qualifier """should""" be suffering, because you said so, but you're not convincing anyone.

>>13312456
So, having nerves is the important part? I don't see why that should be the case.

>>13312470
>The state of undergoing pain, distress, or hardship
Ok so you are admitting to actually being retarded

>>13312444
Yeah try that one again, dummy. Literally just layed out how they even lack the capacity to do so

>>13312464
The 30IQ human is not a moral agent and is essentially property. I have no problem with it being treated as such.

A moral exchange is a ‘this for that’. One side must be able to come to an agreement with the other on something, the one simple version of this is mutual non-aggression. Many animals are incapable of this. Your interactions will not matter and the animal will take the chance to do harm to benefit itself when given the chance. It has no ability to agree to moral contact and therefore you should not treat it with any moral standing.

>>13312451
>a-actually they are!!
They have zero awareness and limited intelligence. Do you approve killing and eating non cognitive humans? Even if they suffer?

>>13312421
Also (I'm >>13312449) your reasoning is so easily abused it's not even funny. Like some serious Mengele shit. So you can factory farm human babies because they are not moral agents? And before you reply with the tired argument "they will become one". What if you knew for a fact that they have a terminal illness that will kill them before they reach enough cognition for morality? What about severely mentally handicapped (but biologically fully functional) people?

>>13312477
Plants can undergo distress and hardship, that is an or, not an and.

>>13312480
They lack the capacity to display their distress in a way you can easily see, they still respond to hardship and distress. Pain I’ll give you though.

>>13312494
Yeah if you knew for a fact a human is not going to become a moral agent then yes, they are essentially property and should be treated as such.

>>13312490
>All mentally disabled people have zero self-awareness
Honestly you've just proven the idea that not all humans are metacongnizant, since you definitely didn't think about this before you posted it.

>moral agent
>metacognizent

we've reached a whole new spectrum of mental gymnastics

>>13312510
Cute shitpost, come back when you have an argument.

>I know I should
No, you shouldn't. Everything is born into this world to die. All life exists by consuming other life. Even plants.
This is the simple fact of this universe, and ideologies that revolve entirely around avoiding death and suffering are futile and terribly miss the point.

>>13312431
No wonder meat in the US tastes like shit. Animals that suffer release chemicals that seriously degrade the quality of the texture and flavor of the meat. That's why responsible hunters go to great lengths to ensure they are going to have an immediate kill shot and pass up shots where they aren't very certain.

>>13312523
>ideologies that revolve entirely around avoiding death and suffering are futile and terribly miss the point.
So what you're saying is it's ok for me to tie you up, rape you, mutilate you, kill you and eat you because you'd die at some point anyway gotcha

>>13312467
Yeah im just trolling because i realize how utterly retarded an appeal to historicity is

>we evolved to eat a vegan/vegetarian diet we obviously would have eaten one at the tribal state of civilization
Baseless useless claim that is IRRELEVANT to now. Do you suggest eating your own shit like they used to, too?

>>13312523
So it doesn't matter if I kill or torture you and your family, got it.

>>13312540
It's hysterical how no matter how many times you explain to a vegan why this is a retarded argument, they'll plug their ears and repeat it.

>>13312552
Carnist projection, everyone!

>>13312474
Yes this retarded hypothetical that questions your logic you pretentious sperg

Now youre backpedaling to potential of cognizance. So AGAIN aspie. Is it okay to kill the non cognizant? You literally just waffled on what you meant so you are not consistent. Suffering is one of the primary negative metrics of experience and is totally unnecessary. Immoral.

Now why your arbitrary definition of cognizance? Or moral actors? Why cant you give a straight answer to anything?

>>13312488
At least you admit to eugenics and now you're just going to evidently admit to arbitrary IQ standard

>this or that
Lol what? That is precisely how ANY lifeform operates you retard. You still cant define why this pants on head retarded meaning has any actual bearing towards morality

>>13312504
Many dont. And yet again you avoid the point. Nice one you braindead retard

>>13312292
Who's raping the cows?

>>13312606
How do you think they get more cows despite killing them?

>>13312581
>waffled
You have had multiple people tell you multiple times that yes it is ethical to kill someone who is not and will not become metacognizant.

>>13312606
Come on dude

>benevolent being doesnt understand or conform to empty autistic convoluted definition of morality

>THIS BEING IS SUITABLE TO KILL

>>13312545
>Irrelevant
Not at all irrelevant, our digestive system has not changed to accompany a vegan diet in just 12K years of agriculture, especially seeing as many tribal peoples haven't even discovered agriculture, yet they have the same digestive system as the people spread out from the Indus valley civilizations. There's a reason we only have a tiny cecum as opposed to herbivores such as the gorilla, preventing us from digesting cellulose and fiber.

>Eating our own shit
A myth, based on improper understanding of evolution thinking we evolved from modern day monkeys/gorillas. As opposed to having separated with them over 5 million years ago.

>>13312628
That's correct, beings incapable of morality, that will never become capable of morality, are okay to kill. Do you need someone to say this a different way?

>>13312622
Yes, after waffling from an original point you retard. Do you not understand what that means? What even is metacognizance to you? Why is this again a suitable metric when a minute amount of sentient beings might even understand it? What is potential in this regard?

>>13312400
This. Godless people are very confused.

>>13312636
Incapable of a completely retarded standard of morality with prerequisites you cant even clearly define. Id rather you answer a question straightly for a change idk

>>13312488
>free pass to abuse anything below a pig's intelligence, including humans
You are literally (not in the colloquial sense) insane. If I didn't know you were a greasy neckbeard I would be afraid of you.

>>13312640
Metacognizance was literally my original point in this entire discussion, I've not strayed from it at all. You seem to have trouble telling different posters apart.

>what is metacognizance to you?
The same as it's defined everywhere else. Essentially, the ability to think about your own thoughts.

>Why is this a suitable metric when a minute amount of sentient beings might even understand it?
What? Why does the number of metacognizant species matter? Or did you just have a stroke and mean something completely different from what you wrote?

>What is potential in this regard?
What? Are you asking me to define potential? For what possible reason?

>>13312400
this doesn't say it's ideal and that it shouldn't be changed

Bought 7kg of red meat today, cost me $60. Been fasting for 2 weeks, and can't wait to break my fast this coming Thursdays with a nice juicy steak, and some beef liver. Yum.

Feel bad for you vegans and vegetarians, hopefully you'll start eating meat again before encountering irreversible malnourishment.

>>13312631
Our digestive system does perfectly fine with veganism. What again do tribes have to do with anything? Do you approve my vegan tribe raping you? That's historically consistent in tribes.

>preventing us from digesting cellulose and fiber.
We digest them. You clearly dont understand what digestion means and what purpose they serve and the BENEFIT they have

>>13312672
I personally don’t think brain dead individuals with no chance of recovery should have rights. It’s the reason others can make executive decisions as to their death.

>>13312477
>hardship
Any living thing can undergo hardship. If they are removed from their native environment or something essential to their environment is removed, they will undergo hardship.

>>13312672
If I ever meet a human less intelligent than a pig, I'm gonna kick his ass.

>>13312663
The prerequisites have been very clearly defined by both of us arguing in this thread.

>Is metacognizant
or
>Is capable of making moral decisions

What part of those are you unclear on?

>>13312673
You literally jumped from mere cognizance to potential. All while failing to define either and why they are morally applicable or acceptable

>to think about your own thoughts
Animals ponder their plan of action to eat and their desire to mate, shelter, etc. Gonna have to do better

>What?
That's a pretty simple sentence. Seems like you yet again dodge a simple question and fail to give an answer

>Why are you asking me to test and define my logic?
Jesus christ. Im getting second hand embarrassment. Are you actually unironically this dumb?

>>13312701
You haven't defined either. You are just restating the concept. You again FAIL to explain why this is acceptable after bitching and moaning about suffering as a prerequisite

Its amazing how your autistic ass cant give a straight answer

>>13312618
You mean mate them?

>>13312626
That is not an example of rape.

>>13312740
Okay, Trump

>>13312749
They are inseminating them.

>>13312763
Yes. That can happen during rape

>>13312774
It's either that or a bull. Perhaps veganfags would enjoy a job where they get to prep the bull all day long.

>>13312683
>Our digestive system does perfectly fine with veganism
Vitamin B6, you can't get it
Vitamin B12, you can't get it
Vitamin D3, you can't get it
Vitamin A, you can't get it
Cellulose and fiber, cause constipation and inflammation in the digestive system (Animals can turn them into fatty acids, you can't)
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3435786/
Creatine and L-carnitine, only available in meat
(Many herbivores do eat meat when available)
Heme iron, only available in meat
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/14988640
Cholesterol, you can't get it from plants

>What do tribes have to do with anything
Untouched tribes are the best example of how humans ate 12K years ago, which was a diet consisting mostly of meats/fats, with some plants/roots/berries when available, primarily for putting on fat.

>Vegan tribe raping you
Not relevant in today's civilized society, but if society was to somehow break down, we would quickly return to tribal ways of thinking. Were the strong rule over the weak.

>>13312804
Just to preface your schpiel has nothing to do with digestion
Lol you can get B6 easily you fucking moron, spinach is higher than most animal foods
B12 you can get from nature but it has been sanitized out
D3 from lichen, you can convert to get D3 from sunlight
Vitamin A from beta carotene
>Cellulose and fiber, cause constipation and inflammation in the digestive system
In some people, mostly in ungodly amounts or people with FODMAPs
>Creatine and L-carnitine, only available in meat
Literally non essential amino acids because they are converted from essential aminos
>Heme iron, only available in meat
All foods have heme iron, dumbass. The ability to synthesize it is another issue. Its irrelevant since IRON is the nutrient
>Cholesterol
Not an essential nutrient, retard. You can raise your cholesterol from drinking alcohol.

Cool sverige larp anyways

Historicity bias isnt relevant. You are weak you fat retard. We dont live in tribes and you agree living tribally isnt necessary other than arbitrarily for food

Dumbass

>>13312804
>Not relevant in today's civilized society,
You mean one where vitamin supplements exist and where we are not chained to naturalistic fallacy determinism, but can instead hold us transcendental?

>>13312841
>All foods have heme iron
No the "heme" means hemoglobin meaning it comes from blood. Plants do not have blood.

>>13312855
Going vegan and shoving a bunch of pill down my throat to survive sounds like fucking torture. It's either me or the animals, so I'll be sticking to eating them thanks.

>>13312861
Its just a word, idiot. You can find heme iron in the roots of soy

>>13312874
No you would find nonheme iron.

>>13312866
Newsflash. You are already deficient. Most people are. E.g. magnesium. The modern lifestyle and diet (which is not exactly your darling paleo) does that to you. Even meat eaters should pop vitamins.

>>13312866
Yeah such torture to down a fucking pill. God what are you seven?

>>13312877
You didnt even know soy roots had heme and take linguistics literally so i dont expect you to know plants have heme iron

>>13312874
>>13312885
>Nonheme iron is not combined with a heme protein, and this difference is the reason for the body’s reduced ability to absorb nonheme iron.
I'm sure you can get plenty of iron as a vegan as long as you make sure you eat iron rich plants. But heme iron is different due to the protein bond with hemoglobin.

>>13312887
Literally has nothing to do with what I said