/ck/ - Food & Cooking

because no one actually likes authentic chinese, indian, or hispanic dishes.

>>12062631
They can and are, just because you haven't been there or don't know about it doesn't mean it doesn't exist at all.

>>12062631
It's not limited to those things, you're just ignorant of the others. Chinese banquet cuisine is just as well documented as French. Surely you've heard of expensive shit like swallow's nest and shark fin?

>>hispanic
Never heard of Pujol? It, and others like it, are the trend among high-end chefs these days.

Typically those people are not as adept at presenting seasonal, local, gourmet food and rely more on sort of "family recipe" type cliches than inventive modern dishes.

This just opened in my city:

https://www.washingtonian.com/2019/03/11/fine-dining-indian-restaurant-punjab-grill-opens-in-penn-quarter/

So it does exist, it just is somewhat rare because most non-European restaurants tend to market to a somewhat lower price bracket.

>>12062637
>>12062639
Yeah prolly after it undergoes french or italian treatment, the so called "fusion" treatment. You won't see authentic indian dishes in its original glory being a 5 star cuisine

>>12062641
>Typically those people are not as adept at presenting seasonal, local, gourmet food

>>12062648
>You won't see authentic indian dishes in its original glory being a 5 star cuisine
Sure you do

>>12062641
dude that's not 'fine dining' at all. It's probably not even good. It's glitzy nuveau rich bullshit.
-actual- good expensive indian food is fucking incredible though.

that shit that most people love, with refinement, higher quality ingredients, and actually trained skilled chefs, is SO much better.

Komi and tail up goat both are 1 star michelin fine dining restaurants that serve Mediterranean/Greek food.

I'm sure there are others as well

>>12062631
India and to a lesser extent China, both were controlled by British/European imperialism.
So pioneering artistic types in those countries, like the ones who would shift their cuisines forward, probably aren't going to want to imitate European haute cuisine, and make food which resembles 'fine dining' to us.
Because they want to retain cultural agency and control and not succumb to a western hegemony over food.

>>12062631
I don't really know about the hispanic world, but if you think China & India don't have any refined cuisine, then your conception of Chinese & Japanese food is probably equivalent to a chink who has eaten pic related, noodles in a hot dog bun with mayonnaise, and thinks he understands italian food.

>>12062631
A few miles from my house there is a relatively high end Chinese restaurant. They don’t do carry out and charge about $18-25/plate but it’s some next level shit. Outstanding service and their food is soooooo much better than regular Chinese carry out.

>>12062707
*chinese and indian food

>>12062648
Fusion is a thing, sure, but that doesn't mean the originals aren't a thing too. A high-end traditional Chinese meal is just as refined as a visit to a 3-star French or Italian joint, and often more costly.

I don't know much about Indian food, but they had upper classes & royalty just like the rest of the world did, so logic dictates that they also have a version of high-end dining.

Chinese cuisine actually does minimalism very well.
For example, they'll just poach whole chickens, if the chicken is fresh enough.
They'll steam whole fish, if the fish is fresh enough.

They understand the whole respecting ingredients, simplicity thing. What you think of as a hallmark of Italian, or Japanese food, is very much a part of Chinese food as well.

>>12062631
I have been to a Indian restaurant recently, that was pretty fine dining. Very good also.
It's more common in Germany this way, than Indian street food or something.
In fact, I have only seen stuff like Naan Kebab in France.

>What is new nordic

>>12062721

Very few nations got as autistic about food as europe - and especially france - did. European high cuisine is ultimately a result of colonialist imports and a lack of variety in local ingredients and seasonings. Pre-colonial europe food was limited largely to olives, fish, simple nuts, cheese, basic fruits & vegetables, and grains. Colonial imports eventially meant a drastic divide between available ingredients between the wealthy and the destitute, with the variety and opulence of dishes being used as a way to flaunt wealth. This also means a lot of what we consider european recipes are actually not much more than a few hundred years old. Meanwhile most other regions had a much wider array of options, spives flowed out not in, so recipes are often much older and have less differentiation between classes.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1-2QBYKI8LU

this is basically what chinese fine dining is like, only more autistic

>>12062780
>Very few nations got as autistic about food as europe - and especially france - did.

A lot of nations did, but we just happen to know about France so well because of the works of Escoffier were widely available to the anglosphere. The Chinese, Indians, Thais have been recording fancypants food for their royalty for hundreds of years before Escoffier or Careme, it's just not something that's accessible to most westerners.

>>12062631
Well the French, Italians, etc were always rich relative to other countries, so while places like China or eastern Europe were developing peak peasant cuisine the central and western European countries were developing food for the upper class.

That's my theory anyways

>>12062723
But I've never associated Italian with fresh ingredients and fine dining

>>12062817
>I've never associated Italian with fresh ingredients

>>12062631
Your assumptions are outdated by about half a century, maybe google some things once in a while.

>>12062631
If you're curious about hispanic fine dining, Chef's Table has a few good episodes on restaurants in that world.
Also various parts of Asia i'm pretty sure.
That's the series that did Jiro Dreams of Sushi. It's really good.

>>12062648
This. I went to some pan asian fusion place in Toronto once, it was definitely fine dining (probably cost close to $100 a person) and though it was absolutely delicious it definitely didn't fit a specific ethnic/national mold

>>12062641
t.cleetus mcInbreeding who thinks mexicans eat rotel and “queso” (sic)

>>12062817
t. Jersey guido trash who thinks “gravey” is eye taliano

>>12062997
>>12062994
>>12062826
t. Pretentious hiv positive white liberal

>>12062631
Rick Bayless on his PBS series visited numerous fine dining restaurants throughout Mexico and discussed with the chef what they were doing and why. Doubtful you could afford it or even possess clothing meeting the dress code in the unlikely event you could appreciate it, Cletus.

>>12062631
French/euro style dining invented "fine dining"
Many other cultures don't eat meals in the same style so they, until recently, were not able to attain fine dining status, because it was measured against the French standard

>>12062817
>But I've never associated Italian with fresh ingredients
Literally the hallmark of Italian cuisine is few, fresh and high quality ingredients.

>>12062631
I like how assblasted them chicanos get from this thread. Good job OP

>>12063151
Literally no

>>12062817
That's because you're an idiot.

Went to a Michelin * Indian in London a few years back:

https://www.luxuryrestaurantguide.com/restaurantDetails/Rasoi

>>12062631
I'm not paying $100.00 for tacos and burritos

>>12062631
Because white people

>>12062780
do you think chinese recipes are much older? szechuan loves chili, that's new world. potato is a staple in some parts of the north, that's new world. and so on and so on. you think the Son of Heaven and Mughal Raj weren't interested in flaunting their wealth? don't worry, there are plenty of things that are rare or difficult enough to make that they were expensive. europe's not that special.
>>12062806
pretty silly theory IMO. peasants always existed in all countries, and rich people always existed in all countries. you don't need every single person in the country devoted to developing one thing at a time, they're all working on different things.
>>12063136
the chinese, at least, have had a highly technical and developed system of cookery for centuries, with specialized terms and high standards. for example, different levels of heat, or different cuts: analogous to 'baton' or 'julienne', you can say 'needle threads' and have described both size and shape.

>>12062631
I had fine dining Mexican. It was. Escamole aka ant egg caviar and it was kind of rude.

>>12062631
It's not, a lot of cuisines have a fine dining variant for the upper-class, chinese and indian included

>>12063048
Two out of four, not bad

>>12062631
No one else is that self important.

>>12062708
>$18
>high end
My parents took home over $50k a year before taxes, as a wealthy person I can assure you the REAL high end doesn't start one penny below $20.

>>12064481
evolved*

>>12064100
He likely means within western cities in general, not necessarily in those cuisine's home markets
In American cities at least French, and Japanese restaurants are almost always mid to high tier prices, Italian and American places fall all over the spectrum, but Chinese, Vietnamese, Thai, and Mexican places are overwhelming cheap restaurants.

>>12064542
>My parents took home over $50k a year before taxes
>as a wealthy person

>>12064561
To that I can only say hat what's in the market is what went viral. If americans prefare lower-class thai food and upper-class french food then you're gonna get low cost thai bars and expensive french restaurants. Those barriers will not often be crossed because presenting anything other then that is a high risk venture that requires a lot of investment from restaurant owners. However if you go to those homelands you'll find a whole network of well infromed chefs making high class meals without sacrificing their traditions. Kings lived everywhere, they had to eat something.

>>12064561
One issue with high end chinese food's appeal to westerners, is that it uses a wide spectrum of textures. So a lot of it is slimy or gelatinous, like jellyfish, sea slug, whole bits of fat, chicken feet, etc.

We aren't really into that and they know it, so they think of us as babby palettes and roll out the hfcs and the deep frier.

>>12064812
I assume the question is why are things like this. Like what specifically about them caused the current dynamic. I don't think it in any way was a comment on the food in these locations

but also to what you are saying, there are many places in the world where they do not consider traditional local cuisine to be fancy and the vast majority of higher end places are foreign themed by most people. You see this quite a bit with Mexicans in Mexico or slavs in russia etc, even though good stuff exists there, most locals do not perceive it (but again, I don't think this is the topic of the thread)

>>12064991
>where they do not consider traditional local cuisine to be fancy
That's really not the case in India or China. Although self-hating rich Indians did exist under the British, that's stopped, atleast in regard to food. It is more common in the diaspora though.

>>12065030
I have never been to India, but it is my understanding that many do not consider their local cuisine high end

>>12065069
Nah, the time when upper class Indians would look down on their own food culture is over.

Even just ordinary middle class people in India have servants and so eat like kings of old with highly laborious processes in their food.

>>12065116
>just ordinary middle class people in India have servants and so eat like kings of old with highly laborious processes in their food.
that seems statistically implausible that the middle class has servants unless you are defining the lower class as an absurdly high part of the population

>>12065131
India has the second great wealth inequality in the world.
The countries 50-90% top wealthiest, have 21.5% of the wealth
The countries top 10% has 74% of the wealth.
The countries bottom 50% has 4.5% of the wealth.

By 'middle class', I mean a family that would be poor by western standards, living on 200 USD a month, would have servants.

Their class structure is totally fucked.

But it means you've got a cunt in the kitchen 24/7 grinding fresh spices with a mortar and pestle.

>>12065182
But by middle class do you actually mean the bulk of normal ass people in the country as the term is used in America? Or do you mean the people who aren't dirt poor but still in the upper 20% of the population?

>>12065191
https://mumbaimirror.indiatimes.com/mumbai/other/the-servant-in-the-indian-family/articleshow/15932324.cms

there's a rundown.

>>12065191
>But by middle class do you actually mean the bulk of normal ass people in the country as the term is used in America?
No, because wealth inequality is far far greater in India than it is in America.
~50% of people aren't 'reasonably well off' in India, like they are in America.
>Or do you mean the people who aren't dirt poor but still in the upper 20% of the population?
Basically yeah. But everyone else barely even qualifies as a person, and this top 20% still contains people who are poor by western standards.

>>12065214
Oh, I perceive the term middle class to mean the actual middle of the population. What normal people live with in that place

>>12065222
It's a pretty ambiguous term.
You could say it means anyone not in the top or bottom 20% of a country, or that it means skilled/ professional people, or many other definitions.

But basically if you're poor like most people are in India, you're not really going to refer to yourself as middle class, otherwise it just means 'not REALLY poor', which is itself still a lot of people.

Anyway my point was lots of people have live in servants lol. Almost everyone in India who is capable of forming opinions about what high end cuisine is.

>>12064465
Pretentious white?

>>12062631

>Chinese

Too many of their recipes got diluted and can be found at any restaurant. The only way for Chinese restaurants to feel like fine dining is to add as many expensive ingredients to a dish to jack up value. You dont need Wagyu for a french beef dish or Pine Shrooms for a Japanese dish to make it fancy.

>Indian

Regional and Caste differences prevent a unified cuisine identity as well as overspiced food.

>Hispanic

Bar food on par with the brits except they convince their cured meats make them better than the brits.

>>12062806
China was the richest country in the world for most of history until the industrial revolution.

>>12062631
I've had a meal at a fine dining place called Michael's at the South Point in Vegas once in my life, the meal cost well over a thousand bucks for all kinds of pretentious finery in service and presentation. The meal was delicious, but I can find the same kind of weird ceremony and service from a decent dim sum place. Trust me the quality of food was way better at Michael's but the flavor and deliciousness was about the same.