/ck/ - Food & Cooking

>>11762489
arent they the same brand though? just one is more entry-level & cheaper?

>>11762489
Given the choice of those two specific ones I'd rather have the henckels because I hate the bolster on the Wusthof.

That said, I wouldn't buy either. A good starter knife is a foodservice brand like Bakers and Chefs, Mercer, Dexter-Russel, Forschner, Victorinox, etc.

>>11762496
>arent they the same brand though?
No, those two companies have been competitors for nearly 200 years now. Henckels is by far the larger of the two.

>>11762489
Do you know how to do "rock chopping?" The one at the bottom will be very annoying to use if you don't rock chop everything. If you do mostly push-pull cuts, neither of them are suitable for it although the Wusthof at the top will be much, much better at it than the one at the bottom due to comparatively flatter blade geometry.

>>11762528
dude.
i'm not going to chop rocks.
and i've never set foot in a professional kitchen.
but i cook food everyday at home and i just want a decent knife.

>>11762542
rock chopping is a method of cutting foods with a kitchen knife. the "rock" refers to a rocking motion, like a rocking chair. It has nothing to do with stones.

>>11762489
>entry level
If you need an "entry level" knife you're trying to spend too much money. Don't buy something nice if you don't have the skill to use and maintain it properly.

>>11762528
The Zwilling at the bottom appears to have a decently long flat spot in its profile so it should do relatively well at push/pull cuts and chopping, but the main problem ist that the tip is just retardedly high. This knife looks more like a camp knife than a chef's knife.

>>11762489
If you buy a good sharpener, every knife is a good kitchen knife.

I got this for my wedding and had a blast for like an hour sharpening all my old dull knives I've had since college. They're now as sharp and keen as my fancy new Japanese and CutCo knives.

>>11762518
just checked it out, they are different.

i always assumed they were the same due to the logo. my bad

http://www.wusthof.com/
https://www.zwilling.com/us/

>>11762555
Not subtle enough bait, anon.

>>11762556
You thought a logo of a 3-pronged fork looked the same as a pair of twins?

>>11762553
Those knives stay serviceable for several months with just a bit of steeling. Plenty of time to learn sharpening with some cheap IKEA knife in the meantime.

>>11762555
>If you buy a good sharpener, every knife is a good kitchen knife.
No, it is not. Whether a knife works well or not is determined by a lot more factors than just the sharpness of the edge. If the blade is just too thick right behind the edge it can be razor sharp but it will still feel like a piece of shit when you attempt to work with it.

I'd take the Wüsthof any day. The Zwilling has a stupid profile that will make working with it a pain in the ass. I have three 9'' Wüsthof Classics in my collection (much better balance than the usual 8'' version) and they are everything you want in an indestructible, rugged all-purpose chef's knif that still delivers good cutting performance.

>>11762489
Zwilling pro, hands fucking down

>>11762579
obviously a Guts sword isn't going to make a good kitchen knife, but a good sharpener improves all edges

>>11762695
most sharpening machines only improve shitty edges.

Also, the edge is only one part of a good knife. A knife with a nice edge but shitty steel is still shitty. And the same applies to bad profiles, excessive thickness, a poor grip, poor or non-extant knuckle relief, etc.

>>11762725
I don't disagree. All my knives have comfy handles though. Even a cheap knife with full tang and comfortable handle works well if it's sharp.

I can't stand these meme knives that have metal handles.

>>11762755
>>global handles suck
Well, I guess we know who fist-grips his knives. Stop that shit. this is how you hold a chef's knife.

>>11762768
it would help if I didn't forget my pic.

>>11762489
Between these the Wusthof is better

>>11762768
>>11762772
I pinch grip, assumptive retard. I still don't like those handles. Especially the metal ones, and ESPECIALLY when I'm working with slippery or greasy things.

>>11762834
I have two knives with metal handles and I have no issues with them, even if my hands are slippery or greasy. I find if you're holding the knife in a pinch grip that barely makes any difference. Most other types of handles will be just as slippery then too.

>>11762563
>You thought a logo of a 3-pronged fork looked the same as a pair of twins?
Both logos are red, square and contain pointy looking ... things. I can see how the average American would be confused.

>>11762553
i know how sharpen knives, but i’m not even a hobbyist level cook
i just cook because i need to eat

what do you guys think about Global knives?

>>11763639
Overpriced and mediocre. They mostly live off the hype they generated when they were introduced. the steel is pretty pedestrian nowadays. If you want something a tad nicer than the Wüsthof or the Zwilling take a look at this page:

https://japanesechefsknife.com/collections/jck-original-kagayaki

JCK is an excellent shop, all those knives are excellent and good value for your money too. They sell the Fujiwara FKM knives too, perhaps the best knives you can buy for the kind of money they cost.

>>11762489
I only buy Wusthofs. I've used both, though.

>>11762518
>Henckels is by far the larger of the two.
by volume, but i'd say wusthof has more of a track record for actual chef knives.

You'll find a lot of pro chefs with a classic 8" or 10" wusthof.

>>11762489
Henckles.
Trust me, in a few years you will begin to hate the bolster on the Wusthof

>>11762489
Why does the bolster of that Wüsthof extend beyond where the plunge line should be? I'd hate to sharpen that knife...

>>11764122
because modern wusthof suck.

I enjoy the older ones though, pic related.

>>11762489
Am chef. Have some of each company, different models. both bretty gud.

>>11764163
where'd u get that cutting board?

>>11764222
what's a good cutting board? is plastic okay?

>>11764233
>where'd u get that cutting board?
literally in the trash.

Someone got it as a gift and never used it, had it in a pile on the curb during the local community seasonal large trash pickup day.

Only real "issue" were the feet, but they were easily unscrewed.

>>11764274
envy

>>11764077
OP here
that's what i keep hearing.
and, i'm ok with that.

i actually have a 8" Wusthof Classic and a 6" Ikon (which i use more)
other people - wife - also use these knifes and i think the Classic is a good knife for her and i think it will help prevent her from cutting herself.
i'll just have to deal with sharpening it and keeping it sharp near the bolster will not really matter.
i'm ok with it so far, but i do like to buy stuff and i REALLY like knifes, so i'll probably jsut buy some nicer ones at some point and keep them out of the kitchen and not let anyone else use them
again, i'm just a guy who cooks food becasue i need to eat. i don't need the most ergonomic economical knife.
i guess the whole point of this post was to see if i really fucked up with the knives i bought

>>11764163
that also has an extended bloster/guard/whatever though a lot smaller than th emodern ones

>>11762489
I'd pick the wusthof, but my god does that bolster piss me the fuck off.

>>11764452
yes it has a larger bolster, but nothing as retarded as what you see on the current wusthof's

kiwi is all you need

>>11764480
How much for all?

>>11764620
They're famous for their dirt cheap pricing.

Full set would be like $30-40.

>>11764620
42$

>>11762489

>>11762507
I just had a brilliant idea.

The Leveling-Up Knife Set. Offers a range of 6-18 different types of knives, each with a different profile, width, and handle style. The set would come with a book of instructions on how to use each knife, with the intention of teaching amateurs how to use each knife for a specific purpose and then learning how to replicate the knife's function on the set's master knife, a chef's knife locked into a deluxe hardwood carbon fiber carrying case. As the user levels up, they can throw away each knife until they finally use only the chef's knife.

Price: $1,499

Market: Millenials who want to master cooking and have a copy of the molecular cookbook on their shelf

>>11762507
hey what book is this??

>>11764480
i used Kiwi for years.
they're fine for disposable knifes.
but the tips bend and become barbed, the edges get utterly fucked and they need to be sharpened almost every day.
they're great knives. especially if you're a poorfag or just don't care about having and using junk all the time.
living in poverty, sucks though, especially if you don't have to.
i'm not a richfag, but spending $100+ on a knife isn't going to bankrupt me or put my retuirement in jeopardy
and having 'nice' knifes is going to make me happy

>>11764681
yea yea.. blah blah blah
you probably just eat tendies every night anyway

>>11764721
>brilliant

>>11762489
why do you need to start with an entry level knife?
jump straight to endgame

>>11765517
ok i like this.
recommend something?

>>11762542
That Zwilling is a zwilling pro specifically. It is a spectacular knife. Far above the food servcie brand knives. But if your just getting started, I would do what another poster said and get a foodservice brand knife from like mercer, or forschner, victorinox. And the accompanying parring knife. That and a bread knife, if you cut bread all the time, and a boning knife if you are doing whole cuts of meat and fish all the time.

But if you just getting started, a good chef and parring is all you probably need.

>>11763987
Those knives, are not nicer than zwilling pro's and I would question the prices of a Blue Steel no2 knife. That steel is usually far more expensive in a knife. And all those VG-10 knives, are not good for a beginner who will very likely chip them. The handles on all of those knives a considerably worse then the zwilling or the wusthoff.

As a general rule, a western knife, of the same price as a japanese one will have a better handle and fit and finish. While the japanese one will have a better steel, and bevel.

Anyone know of a knife that is good for both boning and filleting? I work with poultry and fish a decent amount but I'm leery about buying separate specialty knives for both proteins

>>11765547
Bob Kramer

>>11762507
>german bad
>go get japanese Globals
>>11763987
>overpriced and mediocre. steel is pretty pedestrian
So, which is it? I'd like to try their 'asian chef's knife' due to how the whole combination is very different from anything else.

And, for all the bitching about the bolster on the wusthof classic, why dont people recommend the ikon classic ones?

>>11765922
Best Boi

>>11762507
I got this a few years ago, probably all I'll ever need

https://www.amazon.com/Victorinox-4-Piece-Knife-Fibrox-Handles/dp/B004IEBTZ4

>>11762555
based cutco knife user

>>11766160
they still sell those door to door??

>>11762489
https://dalstrong.com/products/gs-heavy-cleaver

Was thinking of getting this as first knife, trying to move out of mom's house ASAP. If anyone else has a meat cleaver they want to recommend I'm all shears.

>>11763987
Zwilling has the Life and Twin Pollux lines for 30 and 40 Euro respectively ... even the Pro is only 70 Euro.

They are not expensive.

>>11767221
>dalstrong
Where do zoomers find this shit? Is it so hard to google “chef knife forum” and click through the mainstream communities for brands that adults buy?

>>11767312
Too tired to use brain for common-sense, good idea though gramps, thanks.

been at my job 5 years, in a shitty kitchen where anything goes and people abuse everything

we have this one greban chef knife that has been there longer than I have, someone broke the tip off and the owner had the knife repaired

that knife is fucking amazing, a few swipes on a honing steel and you're good to go

>>11767312
they're worth it if you don't pay full price desu

>>11767342
Zoomer logic

>>11764449
>i REALLY like knifes
do you know kitchenknifeforums.com?

>>11766073
>for all the bitching about the bolster on the wusthof classic
Wüsthof also offers some Classic models without bolster (actually the renamed former "Le Cordon Bleu" series). I have two of those, the 9'' version and one of the last 10'' versions ever made. The 10''ers are out of production now. really nice knives with great balance.

>>11766073
>So, which is it?
What do you mean? They are overpriced, mediocre quality with pedestrian steel. All three at once.

>>11767247
I had the Pollux in my collection. Worst knife I have ever had. When I decided to sell a few pieces to make some room that was literally my first choice, out of 60+ chef knives. Bad factory grind, thick, very rigid blade, shitty handle, no knuckle clearance.

>>11762489
>entry level
Get a cheap chicago or victorinox and a nice whetstone my senpai

>>11762569
IKEA knives are serrated

>>11767773
Yeah, the Ikon Classic is actually a really nice blade profile, the price is a bit on the highend though.

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0029OXHVY

>>11767801
I have that knife, and it's not nice. It's light and feels cheap.

>>11767824
lmao you're full of shit, or you're a retard.

You must HATE jap knives if you think that is lightweight.

>>11767824
>owns a $220 knife and didn't return it after realizing he hates it
are you actually a fucking retard or just pretending?

>>11767791
Dunno what they are selling in the US but here in germany none of the knives are serrated (I know that until a while a ago they had a bunch of really shitty serrated knives though). I have the IKEA 365+ knife in my collection, it is actually pretty nice. Quite thin behind the edge and a good profile and comfy handle.

>>11767834
It's straight up lighter than my shun equivalent

>>11767836
Both my mentioned knives were given as gifts, and $200 doesn't impact my bottom line anyway

>>11767838
Not sure about Europe, but every Ikea set I've seen here have a shitty serrated edge. Like full on looks like a saw blade.

>>11767824
Dude, what? That is a fully drop forged knife, with blade, bolster, tang and hilt made from a single piece of steel, the best and most expensive manufacturing technique there is. Modern chef's knives just are made lighter today. Making ablade out of huge thick chunk of steel that wedges like shit in every turnip or squash is just not state of the art anymore. I have one of those knives in my collection, it would make a wicked fighting knife but not a good chef's knife.

>>11767847
>It's straight up lighter than my shun equivalent
It straight up isn't.

>Shun 10" classic
8.6 oz

>Wusthof Ikon classic 10"
10.6 oz

>>11767849
I think I kno what you mean, my parents one of those knives. The ones with a smooth oval spindle shaped oval handle, right? Those were the cheapest ones they had. The better ones are pretty decent.
https://www.ikea.com/de/de/catalog/categories/departments/cooking/15946/

>>11767858
Certainly feels lighter in the hand.

Maybe it's the poor weight distribution.

>>11767874
maybe you're larping

>>11767861
I don't remember what the handles are like other than "plastic."

They're pretty horrendous.

>>11767878
Maybe you overvalue expensive hardware to compensate for your poor skill

>>11767902
lmao, confirmed for LARPing


you can stop replying now.

>>11767908
So glad you were here to confirm that for us, anon. I guess we can shut down /ck/ now for good.

>>11767915

>>11767874
>Maybe it's the poor weight distribution
That may be it. I hadd the chance to handle the 9'' versio and even that one was way tailheavy when held in a proper pinchgrip. I have been thinking aboutgetting the 10'' version for my collection but I have recently gone off the XXL sized knives a bit.

>>11762489
I bought the zwilling pro recently (7" chef, a bit narrower than that in OP's pic). My first decent kitchen knife as well.
Really enjoying it both as someone who cooks and as someone who works metal as a hobby. It's beautifully constructed and ergonomic as fuck. Initially bought the Pro S, but decided the bolster made more sense on the Pro.
Still looking for a good way to keep it sharp. I've always been shitty at sharpening my /out/ knives and cheaper kitchen knives

>>11767933
I have a 10" wusthof, but my primary daily go-to knife is a 6.5" santoku.

Much more appropriate sized for the majority of the kitchen tasks i am doing.

What's up with everyone hating bolsters so much? I've been told they make sharpening harder but haven't had any trouble myself with it on a wetstone

>>11767965
They've been told it's bad

>>11767965
I always worry about bumping the corner of my whetstone with the bolster when I sharpen my inlaws' wusthof knives.

But I'm autistic, and hate blemishes.

>>11767968
People also use the heel of a knife to do things like pierce tomato skins because they're too lazy to keep the actual blade sharp.

>>11767965
They make sharpening more difficult, and they are less comfortable to grip. Sure, you can work around it but why bother when you don't have to?

The bolster is an artifact from how blades are forged. It's laziness on the part of the manufacturer to leave it there, or perhaps a design choice to make the knife look old-school. It serves no useful purpose and there's no reason it should be there.

>>11765916
P-pls help

>>11768102
Deba

What's the point of a petty knife? Just seems like filler.

>>11768112
what's the point of a pairing knife?

>>11767778
I meant, that the other anon posted an excerpt from a book, in which the author claims that novices are better served with Globals. I now assume the author is a shill.

>>11768117
paring

>>11768112
They are filler. honestly, for most cooks the majority of knives in a set are filler.

>>11768117
I don't see what a home cook needs a paring knife for. Maybe someone at a fancy restaurant who carves delicate little garnishes needs one, but I struggle to think of what a home cook needs one for.

>>11768380
The author was Anthony Bourdain, who wrote that book before he became famous. It's nearly 20 years old at this point. There are certainly better choices than Global these days, but those either didn't exist or were relatively unknown at the time. He's right that the average home cook doesn't need a bunch of different knife designs.

>>11768102
A normal boning knife, flexible or stiff, works great for boning out meat and for filleting fish.

>>11768404
>They are filler.
Literally the only two essential knives are a 8"+ chef knife and a paring knife.

>>11768483
Can you explain what a home cook needs a paring knife for which he or she cannot do with a chef's knife?

>>11768492
>Peeling garlic
>Splitting green beans
>Coring fruits and vegetables
>Skinning potatoes

Off the top of my head

>>11768492
they are handy for cutting the stems out of tomatoes, and cutting the florets off a bunch of broccoli, and fur cutting the ends off beans.

>>11768510
>>11768514
Why can't you do those things with a chef's knife? Do you have a medical condition or something else which affects your hands?

>>11768526
Whether you CAN do something and whether it makes sense to do it if there is abetter way are two entirely different things. A paring knife can be had for 3 bucks, why not have the option for almsot nothing.

>>11768526
Why can't you just cook with a machete, m8?

No need for knives or pans. Just use the machete.

>>11768526
bait.
if not, don't be an obtuse faggot. skinning a potato or peeling small fruit with a 8-10 inch knife is retarded

>>11768562
>skinning a potato or peeling small fruit with a knife is retarded
have you heard of a peeler??

>>11768584
>peeler
Do you have a special tool for every task you might need to accomplish in the kitchen?

>>11768544
>Whether you CAN do something and whether it makes sense to do it if there is abetter way are two entirely different things

Are you trying to say that a paring knife is somehow better for those tasks? I don't follow. I find them just as easy to do with a chef's knife. Maybe it's because I have large hands, but I honestly don't find a paring knife any easier to use for those tasks than a chef's knife.

>>11768562
I skin potatoes with a peeler. Much faster than any kind of knife.

>>11768594
A peeler has obvious advantages which a paring knife does not for tasks like peeling. Again, the only task I can see a paring knife having a clear advantage for is carving fancy little garnishes, or maybe tourneing, but let's face it: most home cooks aren't doing that at all.

>>11768594
no i have a chefs knife

>>11768594
>special tools
electric kettle
pans
cutting board
stove
spatula
spoon

yea, i guess i do

>>11768594
You ever peeled 200 potatos boi? Nah didin't think so mate.

>>11767422
nah man their fukken chef knives go on sale for like $22

a henckel chef knife at target is $30, the henckel is ok but the dalstrong is much better

the only thing I've ever used a paring knife for is poking holes in foam to-go containers as steam vents

I got one as a gift one time, I wanted to use it but I just never had a reason to

>>11769371
no but neither have you

>>11769443
Used to work in an irish pub with a idiot boss. I have mate.

>>11769403
That's literally what price anchoring is, zoomer
>special just for you $22
Aka the normal fucking price

>>11769546
well it's not a bad price, you get a keychain with it

>>11768510
>lists four things just as easily done with an 8” chefs knife
Off tae top a ma head

>>11769453
ok anon

>>11767801
>Yeah, the Ikon Classic is actually a really nice blade
I wasnt talking about the "Classic" version of the IKON series but the bolsterless version of the "Classic" series. See pic.

>>11767221
Never used the clever, but I have one of their knives for my work knife and I've loved it for like 2 years. They are much heavier in the handle than any other knives I've used. They definitely need more steeling than soke higher quality knives, but I've now had a couple of stages drop the knife over 3 years and it still is mostly burr free and true with only 1 professional sharpening.

>>11762489

German knives have a reputation as 'housewives' knives' for a reason. Their agenda making something suited to the mass market, so it has to be able to take a lot of abuse without chipping or breaking, survive going through the dishwasher and being chucked in a drawer, and never rust. They're potentially a useful thing to have if you're bashing through small bones and banging your knife through squashes all the time, but if you want a knife that's thin behind the edge and sharpens up like a dream then you'll do much better with a carbon steel Jap knife (which is how European knives used to be made before durability overtook performance as the primary concern).

>>11762507

Not Globals though.

>>11767754

I'd second this, that place has a shitton of information from people who devote a lot more of their attention to this stuff than anyone on /ck/.

>>11765922

Just get on a two year waiting list to buy a knife for the same price as a sports car, bro.

>>11767854

>drop forged
>best

Quality bait.

>>11771742
How is drop forging not best? High yielding, perfect blade profile every time, allows beautiful tangs which would be unpractical any other way and best of all, low cost.

Some barely evolved monkey hammering on a piece of steel for hours to imperfectly do what a machine can do in seconds doesn't make it better.

>>11771871

>High yielding

This just relates to the last point.

>perfect blade profile every time

I'd say consistent rather than perfect. If there is such a thing as a perfect knife it has much more to do with the blade geometry than the method used to shape it, and many drop-forged blades are fat as shit behind the edge.

>allows beautiful tangs

Utterly irrelevant to the knife's performance.

>low cost

Which is the main argument for drop forging. It's a great method for mass manufacture of items of a reasonable quality, it means you're less reliant on the skill of the craftsman and that there's less wastage. That doesn't make it the best by any means. You can't produce the kind of pattern welding or sandwich construction which is common to the knives which most enthusiasts would consider the 'best' available by drop forging, and most drop forged knives are still made out of shitty soft stainless steel.

It's not even like the low cost of drop forging is reflected in the price of the end product either, you can pick up a very decent hand-made Nip gyuto in a good carbon steel for the kind of price they're asking for that mass produced Wusthof.

>>11771963
>You can't produce the kind of pattern welding
You could, but it's not really worth it ... you can get so many blanks out of a piece you might as well let the monkey work the hydraulic hammer. Sometimes the flexibility of the monkey is enough to make it not worth making a machine.

Also utterly irrelevant to the knife's performance.

Sandwich is not a problem, tons of VG10 core mass produced knives.

>>11762489

I went with Wusthof. Shit is cash.

>>11764767
Different anon. It's one of Bourdain's books. Probably Kitchen Confidential.

WHICH KNIFE IS BEST FOR PEOPLE MEAT???

NEED TO KNOW QUICK

>>11772404

A butcher’s scimitar is the best tool for that, and you’ll need something to go through the bones. Speaking from experience a tenon saw will do the job very nicely.

>>11772404
Anything meant for butchering pork would probably do.

You want something heavy and thick enough to chop through bone, unless you want to get a bone saw or something to saw through instead.

>>11772544

He’ll have a hell of a time trying to put a cleaver through anything larger than a wrist bone, a saw would make life a lot easier, and tidier too.

Speaking of tidier, remember to drain the blood and remove the guts before doing any chopping.

>>11772074
Good choice. You wont be sorry. It's a BMW M5 or a Porsche 911 among knives, no LaFerrari or Bugatti Chiron, but there is enough tome for those later if you dccide you do want to go down the rabbit hole.

>>11772656
Remember what the "iceman" mob hitman said during his prison interviews: break down bodies at the joints. You shouldn't be cutting bone at all.

Non-murrican here
Working at some federal medical research installation,two buildings
one first world tech the other old as revolution
We are support at the old one
Everything is discrete and shady
No tools or equipment from exterior
We must make/customize our own tools
Access to veggies and meat
If life give lemons
Pic is one of my favorite creations

>>11762549
>the "rock" refers to a rocking motion, like a rocking chair.
Fucking Amerifatskis, I swear...
Should have named it the "Elvis Rolling" since it refers to the "Roll" in Rock ’n’ Roll that Elvis used to roll up in his legendary monster sandwiches, of which one of those got stuck in his throat once, so he died choking on one while taking a shit at the same time.

Thinking on buying this as fillet/boning knife for my ribs, currently at 88 bucks. Does anyone have any experience with Shun's Kanso series?

>>11762549
you took that bait and ran with it
kidos anon

i meant KUDOS anon
to you

>>11773176
>>explaining something to an idiot offends me for some reason

It's not a name you dumb fucker, it's an explanation. Are you drunk, high, stupid, or some combination of those?

>>11773818
go rock a chair, faggot.

>>11762489
These are not "entry level" knives. They're very good quality. I live in Germany close to Solingen where these knives are made and they're very proud of the quality. You probably can't go wrong with either Wüsthof or Zwilling

>>11762489
they are both shit
just buy a shun

>>11773884
Seig Heil Adolf

>>11764767
It's Kitchen Confidential by Anthony Bourdain. I remember the Z knife passage.

>>11767933
If anything, I like the Ikon line with the larger blades more. That thikkkkk butt puts a lot of weight on the rear. I generally prefer slightly blade heavy knives, though.

>>11775429
Yeah, having the handle end in that massive steel plate seriously screws up the balance. It would be a much better knife without it.

>>11775601
>without it
It depends on the knife. For something like a paring or boning knife, I don't think it matters much. For small-ish to medium cutting board knives, I would say they could tweak the amount of steel back there for the balance, not necessarily getting rid of it completely in all cases. For heavy butcher blades, yeah, put quite a bit back there, but those should still be even more blade heavy than cutting board knives.

I like Zwilling.

>>11762555
I agree on this sentiment.
Its fun to use one, and then being able to use a shitty knife to slice tomato by moving the blade on the surface of it.

Iv'e also had to take home work knifes and sharpen, after silly sheenigans with kevlar thread.

>>11762579
It is.
But its a long and weird process. Where better steel stays sharper longer, and cuts better.
And worse steel might need weekly sharpening to be able to reasonably cut meat.

>>11775733
What on eart is the second knife from the bottom for? I have never seen a kitchen knife with such a sharply curved tip. It is almost like a skinning knife.

Second knife from top seems to be a kiritsuke profile, do you use it as a slicer?

>>11776109
>It is
if you truly think that it just tells me you have never worked with a really good kitchen knife before. I have plentty of cheap knives in my collection and I can bring them to razor sharpness on my waterstones, but I do not delude myself they will ever be good cutters (not that I mind much, I kinda like and prefer knives that need a little bit of force because I am used to it). And I am not even talking about the durability of the edge here, or the profile.

It is the geometry, and if that is bad a knife will never perform we,, no matter how much you sharpen it.

ump

>>11767312
>a "community" of fans of a particular brand of knife

>>11778671
I love how frogposting zoomers think KKF is a community of fans of dalstrong or whatever garbage knife zoomers waste money on

>>11778785
I don't care what particular knife you sperg on about, I'm just laughing that you make the knives you buy so much a part of your identity that you consider yourself a community

>>11778807
A person is not a community
I don't post on KKF, I don't even have an account there
KKF doesn't have any particular brand of knives that they favor, other than being snobs about knives in general
Saying "community" became a catch-all for a variety of different internet platforms with a regular userbase, precisely because autists like you have a meltdown if someone says "BBS" when they should have said "social network"
Lastly, my dad can beat up your dad

>>11778814
Fair enough, sorry I'm being a bit of a dick today

>>11762489
The Gemini Henckels is dank.

>>11765547
something nice and thin for controlled slicing and dicing

>>11762507
>German knives require 15 min a day to maintain
My Wustof requires sharpening every few months and a quick steeling before use.

>>11762489
£5 wilko knife and £20 set of whetstones is all you need faggot. You ain't a top level chef, just have a cheap knife that you know how to sharpen and you'll be fine

>>11776826
>I have plentty of cheap knives in my collection and I can bring them to razor sharpness on my waterstones,
Most of those even work without sharpening. Its just painfully and too much effort to cut anything.

>And I am not even talking about the durability of the edge here, or the profile.
Durability is one of the most important aspects of sharpness. It dictates how much you can cut before you feel the first degrade, the second degrade, and thick objects you can cut.
And durability is often hardness as well, where harder metal cuts better so long its sharp.

Basically your stance is that you are projecting instead of attacking or using the argument.
If you have KNIFES, you NEED TO SHARPEN. If you don't need to sharpen the knifes, you are simply not using them.
Then comes knife quality. If you ever worked at any chef assembly line you would know that you might cut a few kilos of meat, but you also need to sharper some of the worse knifes before you can cut a few more kilos into dices or shapes. So basically if you had better knife you would sharpen it less.

And thats for chef knifes, since their shapes is very standardized these days. If you go to a store and buy a shitty chef knife, it will have some of the proper geometry.


I mean, your entire argument is basically
>It is the geometry, and if that is bad a knife will never perform
But since you don't define what that is, or give examples, you are spewing meaningless garbage.

>>11779384
>since you don't define what that is, or give examples
if you dont know enough about knives to already know that you have no business lecturing others about what makes a good knife, dude ...

The profile of a knife is the curve its edge described when you look at the blade from the side. Its geometry is the cross section of the blade, that is what you would see if you snapped the blade in half somewhere along its length, the fracture plane so to speak. That would tell you how thick the knife is behind the bevel (at its "shoulders"), how the bladeface is shaped (straight, V-shaped, convex, concave, convex-concave/S-shaped etc ...) the surface finish of the bladeface has a big influence on the cutting performance too as it has an effect on the stiction of the produce. I have had several of my thick-as-shit knives (among them one pretty expensive F Dick Premier Plus which had a horrible geometry nevertheless, two Tojiro DPs and a Wüsthof Gourmet) professionally thinned, with the bladeface changed from straight (as is the case with 99,9% of mass manufactured knives because they are ground flat by being held against the side of a massive disc shaped grindstone) to convex, which basically needs to be done on a belt sander. The width at the shoulders of the bevel was also reduced to paperlike thinness. The difference it made is quite unbelievable, th eknives just fall through onions.

>>11776813
It's a six-inch, wide-blade version of the knife above it. Makes for a good service knife, although I used it to split whole chickens when I worked at Texas Roadhouse.

It is a kiritsuke, I hardly use it except for (mostly) cutting striploins.

>>11780061
Why would you thin intentionally thick knives? They are made with different performance in mind. I mean, I wouldn't want to thin my butcher knives. The only thinning I do is to knives that are supposed to be thin, but which I have sharpened enough to move the shoulder up into thicker blade area.

>>11780192
Because he is an autistic memester that buys knives to look at rather than use. He doesn't specify what kind of knives he's sharpening, but I'm assuming some of them are chef's knives. The reason most chef knives don't come with a hollow grind is because it makes the edge weak and prone to chipping and rolling. That's why everyone complains about Shun classics chipping. They're mostly good for slicing and light weight chopping. The other reason hollow grounds are fucking dumb on chef's knives is that if you spend any decent amount of time in the kitchen, you should be sharpening your own knives on the regular. The hollow grind is going to turn back into a flat grind after a couple sessions on the whetstone anyways.

>>11780192
>They are made with different performance in mind
No, they arent. Modern chef knives are made thick for two reasons.

The first is that people nowadays are too retarded to use a delicate tool properly. people will use their knives to hack through frozen meat and chicken bones, then want the manufacturer to replace their bent or chipped knife and bitch about the quality online and leave bad amazon reviews.

The second reason is that isis much easier on your tools in your factory to shape the blade before it gets hardened but there is a limit to how thin you can make the blade before the hardening process with it getting warped. A premium quality blade must therefore undergo a lot of grinding after hardening which wears out your tools a lot quicker. So they leave the blades as thick as they can get away with to save on costs.

>>11780403
>with it getting warped
*without it getting warped* sorry

>>11762507
>that pic
It still hurts bro´s

>>11767878
Not him but maybe you’re an arsehole and should get off my board.

>>11770045
What if it’s not ok anon?

>>11773193
Don't touch shun. It's overpriced vg10. Not shit, but a big fuckin rip for what they are.

Take the Mercer pill, OP

$37 on Amazon right meow. https://www.amazon.com/Mercer-Culinary-M23510-Renaissance-8-Inch/dp/B002R1CGV6/

>>11763987
This guy is bang on. and JCK or Fujiwara knives are all good value, but you need a sharpening stone to really make them sing.

I like japanese knives, and did months of research before I decided to buy my Gesshin Ginga white steel no.2 chef knife. It wasn't cheap, but the knife feels great to hold and looks beautiful. It cuts great. Pic related. I rub it with olive oil when I finish using it, because I like to. It only comes out sometimes.

I bought a KING 1000/6000 stone to go with it.

The ginga is a nice knife for 200USD. The steel is high quality, the blade thin and light and it has no issues cutting anything, from tomatoes to chicken breast.

The bad news is that I don't really need a knife that nice.

When I was on holiday in ireland, I bought (what I thought) was a cheap Rockingham forge chef knife, for 10 Euro on special!! Made of X50CrMoV15, its a solid mid range steel.
I took it to the sharpening stone and gave it a 15 degree bevel on both sides.

It's ridiculously good. I don't need to baby it like my japanese Ginga, and it still cuts 3/4 as well.

The bottom line is, japanese knives are sexy, beautiful and expensive. They make great gifts for amateur and pro chefs alike. But unless you're doing high end cuisine often, its not necessary.

Just buy a Sub $100 jap chef knife, like Fujiwara or JCK and a $60 KING 1000/6000 water stone. You will be able to do everything easier in the kitchen with a decent knife.

Dont buy global, shun or other meme brands. Ok knives in VG10 at the same price as a well made and heat treated japanese stainless clad gyuto.

Dont forget to buy a sharpening steel/honing steel as well. Doesnt need to be expensive, $20 should get a good one. This straightens the micro edge on the knife, which curls over during normal usage.

>>11776109
This is an abomination, and ruins knives by putting a shitty bevel on them.

By the way, carbon steel knives are nice, but take extra care. They hold an edge nicely.

>>11780837
>Gesshin Ginga
hi zapatadefuego it looks like you're on the wrong board, please stay on /r/chefknives/

>>11780851
I didn't buy this ginga off japanese knife imports. I bought a cheaper version with lower handle quality off ebay for about 15% less.

The ginga is a nice knife. What knives do you own?

>>11780862
Meme knives from whatever was cool 15 years ago. Mac Professional, Misono UX10, Tojiro DP, Sakai Takayuki, Suisin, some unbranded shitters from Shikoku, and whatever is rattling around in the bottom drawer because it didn't fit on my knife bar.

Is that thing monosteel?

What's the best tutorial for sharpening knives on a whetstone?
Everytime I try to sharpen my knives I feel like I'm fucking them up

>>11780935
Ideally you would use something between the knife and wetsome to get the correct angle.
Beyond that, i guess i would ask the same: What is the better technique.

>>11780935
The sharpie method is the best way to develop your own way of thinking about sharpening.

The problem with learning by watching or reading is that you can't really see or feel what's going on between the knife and the stone unless you're the one doing it. It's like driving a stick shift or riding a bike, nothing wrong with watching different videos but at some point you just have to take ownership of it and figure it out for yourself. Past a certain point you're just listening to autists argue over syntactic ambiguity and thinking they're right and everyone else is wrong and stupid.

>>11780935
youtube is pretty good for teaching stuff like that. Watch the videos from Korin Knives, or from Jon Broida (Japanese Knife IMports) or the video from Global UK with the old Japanese chef. Bob Kramer also has some good stuff.

>>11780873
Yeah, monosteel. It's a Lazer at 1.8mm spine thick ness. Apart from the Mac those all sound like good knives.

Let she honest, I bought the ginga because it's pure white nationalist paper steel no2 empire of the rising sun no noggers allowed high purity carbon steel.

>>11780935
When sharpening a knive, move your upper body more than your arms. Helps maintain angle. Start at the hilt and as you run it across stone go about halfway up the edge. Repeat for the other half. Use the shine of the new edge to track your progress on the edge. Work until the shininess reaches from the start of the bevel to the edge. Then flip.>>11781032
This works too, but more mess.

>>11780403
This is ridiculous. Not all knives are meant to be paper thin "lasers". Knives that are intended for heavy duty tend to be thicker. A heavier blade combined with a more obtuse bevel creates a more durable edge for chopping while maintaining a decent ability to slice. If all you do is slice, then sure, go for a paper thin blade, but you're an idiot if you buy thicker knives and then pay for someone to thin them down.

>>11780935
Korin knife videos. One of the guys that appear in the videos also has a newish one on Munchies.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0fxL8v2dMho

Just keep sharpening to be honest. Angles don't have to be exact. Just be consistent with the angle you're holding and you'll always come out with a sharp knife.

>>11781824
Neat, how reactive is that steel? All my white power steel is of the mudblood variety (sanmai jigane/hagane/jigane) so it's hard to separate the behavior of the core from the behavior of the cladding.
>I bought the ginga because it's pure white nationalist paper steel no2 empire of the rising sun no noggers allowed high purity carbon steel.
Well I suppose that's a better reason than reddit telling you to do so. Sieg Zeon!
>>11782151
When did he start dying his hair?

>>11782120
Thinning japanese knives is a common practice. People will pay 200-300$ for a knife, then another $100 for a pro to thin it down. Takeda is an example.

Some knives have great steel and tempering, but didnt get proper QC treatment when it came to bevelling and sharpening the blade.
Some people just want to take their 2.5mm thick jap knife and make it 2mm thick because it makes the blade a lot better for slicing.

It does become more fragile as a result, but if you want to whack away at frozen cuts and bones, get a cleaver or a german workhorse for it. "fragile" lazers will do 90% of all the tasks you require.

>>11783293
Honestly, it has patina on the edge, but I dry it immediately after using it and put some oil on it, and most of the blade is still shiny as the day I bought it.

Granted, I have only used it daily for a week when I Was on holiday in Dubai. I can't be fucked babying it during the week. I do a 60 hr week in the gas fields in Qatar; spare time is precious.

90% of the time I use my sharpened rockingham forge chef knife, lol. For 10 euro it was a fucking steal.

>>11762489
Stop worrying so much about sophisticated gadget and learn how to cook.

>>11782120
if you basically have to hit an ordinary chef's knife with a mallet on the spine to force it though a bulb of celeriac and you develop carpal tunnel syndrome after splitting a dozen big, fresh carrots lengthwise the knife is too frigging thick, period. I dont care if I could use it for splitting kindling in an emergency, or even if I can split a chicken. That is what cleavers or poultry shears are for and those cases make up only a tiny fraction of everyday cutting tasks.

>>11784693
I had never heard of Rockingham knives so I looked it up. Strangely that knife appears to be the exact same model that is offered by this German knife shop here, except the German shop offers versions with fancier steel:
https://www.knivesandtools.de/de/ct/eden-quality-classic-damast.htm

>>11783293
San mai is great. Its really beautiful when the carbon edge patinas to purple/blue. And it reduces maintenance. You just cant have san mai on a laser though due to the thickness, and I didnt want a stainless steel lazer, because carbon.

A quick run down on carbon steels.
Aogami/blue paper steels are carbon steels with additions of tungsten, vanadium, chromium. This improves the edge retention and corrosion resistance of the blade by 20% at the expense of a lower ultimate sharpness. This is due to alloy carbides in the steel matrix; kind of like pebbles and aggregate in cement. The cement is tougher but cannot be shaped in the same way that cement/sand can be. This steel is arguably better for people new to carbons, especially when done in san mai, or clad with stainless steel.

Shirogami/white paper steels are high purity carbon steels. They typically have 30% less carbon than aogami's and no tungsten, vanadium, Cr, molybdenum. They have a lower ultimate hardness than the blue paper steels and slightly lower corrosion resistance, but the edge can get wicked sharp. Common steel for sushi chef knives that need to be wicked sharp.

Tool steels like ZDP-189, R-2 etc are super expensive. The reason is that they have such high levels of alloying components (e.g. chrome, tungsten) that they need to be manufactured using spray sintering and worked very carefully. Their edge retention is unparalleled and corrosion resistance is great too. Think of them as super stainless steels. Very hard and very tough. The trade off is that theyre much harder to sharpen, they wont achieve carbon steel sharpness and typically very expensive. Only required if you're a pro chef that does a load of slicing and needs a durable edge.

>>11784821
Those look nice. Google them and see what people say on the knife forums about them.

Alternatively, get the #1 rated brand for value and steel quality, a Tojiro DP. I always hear these being recommended, and you can't go wrong for a 21cm chef knife at $72. These are recommended so damn much that I would advise anyone looking to get into decent knives to skip the germans and go for this. Also see if you can get a 1000 grit water stone with it too, otherwise you'll never get full performance out of it.

https://www.amazon.com/Tojiro-DP-Gyutou-8-2-21cm/dp/B000UAPQGS

>>11784821
I have to agree with this, althought I never like slicing carrots. Theyre like pumpkins. I am very careful cutting those sorts of veggies and I typically wont use my jap knife for it because of chipping risk.

Whats the max thickness for a good chef knife? 2.5mm? That sounds about right. But its important that the blade isn't multi bevelled. One bevel to level out each side of the blade, and then a smaller bevel for the edge. Otherwise its a wedge.

>>11784693
>lasers will do 90%
You say that as though you know what I do, and you do not. In addition, that is only the case for those home cooks who only buy fully butchered meat and never go near dried stems. I own several lasers and several heavy chef knives, and work various cooking jobs from extreme volume to private chef types of gigs for a couple. I would never buy a chef knife that I had to thin unless it was priced accordingly. I have yet to see a Takeda for sale in the US that would fit that description. Perhaps there are some decent deals on them in Japan, I don't know.
>>11784821
A decently maintained heavy chef knife will slice through celeriac with ease, but it won't be as clean of a cut, and you will have a tough time making very thin slices. I have spent many hours on julienne and fine dice carrots with a 9" wusthof classic that I put an accute bevel on when I was a young cook. It worked beautifully.
>poultry shears
Really? That is the worst choice of task-specific tool possible.

>>11784693
>>11784821
>>11785084
And if you want to exaggerate and be smarmy asshats, we could mention pepper corns, or any other kind of relatively intact spice. Have fun with your nicks and chips on that crusted scallop. Save the 65 HRC laser for your sashimi, because that's all it's good for unless you're prepared to have a serrated edge by the end of the week.

>>11785064
>chipping risk
>slicing carrots
With carrots even? Eh, guess I buy a German/Euro style knife then.

>>11785064
LOL I already have that Eden knife with the Damascus clad blade. I also have two Tojiro DPs in 240mm. they are good but still a good deal thicker than they need to be. They perform very well now after I had them thinned.

>>11785097
lol chill out man. If your $150 stamp produced wusthof is better for you than a thinner jap knife, then all the best.

To put it in perspective, my Rockingham forge chef knife is the same grade of steel and 57 HRC instead of wusthof's 58HRC. I use it daily to cut onions, garlic etc for dinner and I haven't sharpened it on my stone since october last year. So it's a good mass produced blade right... the kicker is that I paid 10 euro for what's basically the same blade.

What lasers do you own, and what stone do you sharpen them on?

>>11785112
Pumpkin is the real issue. Have I ever chipped a knife before? The answer is no. Have I ever cut a pumpkin with my jap knives? No. Am I scared of cutting a pumpkin with my jap knife... yes.

>>11785005
>You just cant have san mai on a laser though due to the thickness

Why can the VG10 mass producers manage <1.8 mm 3 layer blades then? Lack of precision in hand crafting?

>>11785132
I think as a blade becomes thinner it becomes much harder to make a good product. Flex, even tempering, and bevel/sharpening, all of that becomes more precise and demanding.

It could also be that most people new to good knives dont understand the level of respect you need to pay to a well made blade, and only know of forcing chinese "wedges" through onions and carrots while narrowly missing one's fingers.

my first good knife was a hiromoto aogami super stainless clad gyuto. These knives were well known for being great value with excellent steel, perfect for a first carbon purchase. Theyre quite prized now since the maker died. I bought my 180mm one for $120US 7 years ago.
https://japanesechefsknife.com/collections/hiromoto
Took a long time to sharpen the AS steel at 61HRC though.

>>11785144
I didn't see any well recommended san mai lasers on the forums. The stainless clad is soft, and may not leave more than a mm of carbon steel at the core with a 1.8mm blade. At this point, I read that the knife starts to flex a lot. What knives are you talking about here, I'd like to see if they are names I recognize.

>>11785171
>What knives are you talking about here, I'd like to see if they are names I recognize.
Mostly the Yaxell's.

https://miuraknives.com/japanese-knife/907-japanese-chef-gyuto-knife-yaxell-vg-10-steel-yo-u-bianco-serie-size-21cm.html

>>11762507
Dexter Russell..the best..usa made..handle is perfect, rarely slips, blade is support strong, holds sharpening extremely well..I own/have worked in the field decades..get a Dexter Russell..

>>11785171
>Theyre quite prized now since the maker died
Yeah, I have a 240mm gyuto in ym collection too, Hiromoto AS2. Never sharpened, never used. I may hang on to that for a while. I have two Hattori too because for a while it looked like he was going to retire because he was seriously ill too, but it seems he is back in the saddle again.

>>11785137
Sorry if I lumped you into the smarmy asshat category with the other guy and that was not your intention. It's just all too often on /ck/ knife threads.
I currently use an Asai-Rader collaboration that is fairly thick at the spine, yet thin enough through the majority of the blade that I consider it on-par with any other laser I've used, and a P. Wheeler that would fit anyone's description of a laser. If I'm on site or some place that I can't trust people to respect other people's stuff, I will pull out an old Sabatier that wards off most people because it looks fugly, or in case it's really sketchy, a Chicago Cutlery.
I have a ridiculous number of stones that I've collected over the years, and use whichever ones I fancy at the time. Lately it's been Norton water stones with a 10k finishing stone and a strop, but I'm also breaking out my Arkansas that were given to me by my granddad more frequently. I don't know if it's nostalgia, or just the feel of something a little different every now and then that has me gravitating back towards them. I have quite a few synthetic Japanese stones of various makes too, from when they were memed like crazy over a decade ago.

Of those two I prefer Wusthof but now I hate knives with the huge ass thick bolster near the bottom. They serve NO purpose but to make the knife a pain in the ass to sharpen. In the old days they served as proof that a knife was forged rather that stamped from sheet steel but now everyone knows that forged knives aren't actually better.

Global knives may be last year's news but imho they are still among the best knives you can get.

>>11785263
He's back at it huh? I'll keep an eye out, then. But surely he isnt making the sub $300 knives right?

>>11785271
SG2... I talked about those powder metals in a previous post.
Powder metals aren't really something I require as I'm not using my knife heavily. Also very expensive. But I am curious, how does the Asai Rader compare to any aogami/shirogami carbon steels you have?

I'm talking ultimate sharpness and edge retention. That's what I really want to know.

I've also heard that powder metals like SG2 can be quite brittle when the hardness is so high. Have you had any chipping problems?

Most of the drill bits we use at work are powder metals; e.g. cobalt tungsten high speed steel. They stand up quite well when being used to drill structural steel. I imagine they aren't so brittle in other applications.

I have a 1000/6000 grit KING stone. Not the highest quality. But it does the job. 10000 is very high, I imagine the edge sings on that.

>>11785282
I thought the bolster was useful for breaking/ bashing through tough stuff, like small bones.

Global... I dont want to be a snob but...

>>11785271
These rader knives look fuckin sweet! Which one do you have?

>>11785298
There's some inconsistencies in the SG2 that will lead to rapid pitting if you don't really stay on top of your care. It sharpens very fast for such a hard treatment, and holds an acute angle very well (except for the chipping). I typically go with a two angle or convex edge on it. Right now it's convex non-linear and probably will need to be thinned after another 6 months or so if I keep using it at this rate. It does chip easily, so it's relegated to fine slicing, but it excels at that. I like it quite a bit for its specific kit place. It also just feels really good to use. I love the lower grit King stones. They cut fast and priced right for fast wearing stones. When you need to replace it, check out the Nortons. Their high grit are satisfactory, but the 500 is a beast if you need to do any regrinds. And yeah, 10k is a near mirror. I use it on the thin slicers (or when I have too much free time because it feels good).

>>11785314
I believe it's the 9 inch (9+?) gyuto. Found the picture I took for the sharpening wank thread a week or so ago. I just happened to have sharpened it that night, so why not pose it like a french girl?

>>11785380
buttons are hard

>>11762768
mate, I pinch grip and work my knife hours on end. I sure as shit never want to do that with a Global. Those things are cancerous. Good for you if you can rock one for a full shift, but I sure as shit can't. I'd go insane.

>>11765517
Jump to endgame and you won't know how to maintain and respect your knife. Enjoy flushing $300 down the drain when you could have just bought a Victorinox first.

>>11785298
I forgot to compare to Aogami/shirogami. It's a hard comparison for me to make, because I think so much of it depends on the individual maker. I have had two Aogami. One I really liked because of the quality and treatment of the steel, and the other I really liked because the taper was perfect, even through a lot of grinding down from normal use sharpening. I suppose I would say that I prefer Aogami, all things equal, but I do not know how I would make all things equal. The SG2 seems to be much easier to sharpen, but more prone to chipping. I suspect the inconsistencies that can lead to pitting in the Asai blade are due to some of the hardening treatments, if not forging, that are blade specific, so I don't know that it works as a general characteristic even for Asai, as I do not see many people mention it beyond blanket statements of things like
>skilled chefs use these blades
and other sorts of vague statements insinuating discipline, accuracy, and whatnot. I've only owned one shirogami that wasn't san-mai, and it was a small honesuki, so I don't think I have enough experience to opine much about that. I do like it a lot in clad blades, though.

>>11785005
it seems like you think sanmai means something other than what it means

it doesn’t automatically reduce maintenance

>>11785341
http://www.zknives.com/knives/steels/steelgraph.php?nm=sg2

Steel is very high chromium. If you put the edge of that under an electron microscope you would see all the hard-as-diamond chromium carbides encrusted along it. They keep the edge sharp.

I imagine the SG-2 is very difficult to work and extremely sensitive to tempering and hardening. If you over-heat any kind of high alloy tool steel, the alloying components (e.g. Cr, W) begin to de-alloy from the matrix and bunch up into clusters, making the steel super hard in some places and weak and shitty in others. If you overheat a high speed steel drill bit, you'll fuck it real quick. Its easy to do.

Don't imagine I'll be needing a new stone any time soon! Mine barely sees monthly usage.

How easily does it chip? If you're slicing carrots? Its easy to chip harder knives if you whack it down on the board, but what about using light pressure when slicing veggies and meat?

>>11785383
Damn thats a real looker. Wow

>>11785417
I jumped to end game straight away. Just look after your knives; not hard. That said, if money was actually tight a victorionox would probably be fine with a good stone.

>>11785774
>zknives
Neckbeard detected

>>11785298
>surely he isnt making the sub $300 knives right
AFAIK those are all he makes anymore, IIRC he has given up making those knives from Cowry steel he was famous for. The more affordable knives he makes now are the FH knives, designed in collaboration with the kitchenknifeforum guys.

>>11773884
This

>>11785802
and if by "not making them right" you mean not with good craftsmanship, the two Hattori FHs that I have are extremely well made (they are a few years old though)

>>11762489
Don't own any Wüsthof, but I know Zwilling is a solid brand. And if it IS some of your first knives, I think you should try going out to a store and feeling the grip, because in my Experience the most important part about a knife, is that it feels good the way that YOU grip it

Chef here,

I've used Wusthof and they're a cunt to sharpen and go blunt easily, the steel is pretty hardy though.

I just use Victoriknox fibrox knives, they are cheap and take a beating.

>>11785887
the steel isn't hardy if it goes blunt easily

Everyone's going on about the full bolster on the Wusthof posted by OP.
Is there any reason really not to get the Wusthof Classic half bolster version? Is the balance going to feel off?
Also looks like a lot of people online have issues with Wusthof knives sourced through amazon as they get theirs from a third party suplier, so going to go through an official supplier.

>>11786724
forgot image

>>11786724
Why would you pay good knife prices for a mediocre solingen knife?

>>11785894
Knives which are tempered to a lower value get dull faster, but also withstand abuse better. A harder temper, like most Japanese style knives have, will stay sharp longer, but is also likely to chip or break if abused.

>>11762553
If you want an "entry level" knife, why not get the Victorinox one that's top-rated in every list I've seen?

>>11786820
Microchipping and rolled edges are just two expressions of the same thing: edge failure. Stop acting like rolling is good and chipping is bad. They are both inevitable consequences of real world use. You set the edge angle to accommodate the expected use case. When the edge fails (not if), you perform maintenance on the knife. You DO know how to perform maintenance on a knife, don't you?

The only reason to go for something that rolls instead of chipping is that you're afraid the whole blade is going to snap and you want a really soft springy blade. At that point you've already gone far beyond the use case of a cooking knife and should probably not be allowed near a stove without adult supervision.

>>11762489
I didnt read the whole thread, but I seen a commercial for the Zwilling knives before Christopher Kimball's Milk Street show.
It invoked the glory of Nazi Germany in me so powerful, I raised my right arm and shouted Heil! Achtung Juden!
Anyone else here know the one I'm talking about?

>>11785887
You cant tell me that Wüsthofs get dull quicker than Vic Fibroxes.

>>11786724
>>11786733
I have the 10'' and the 9'' of the bolsterless Classics in my collection (actually they are the former renamed "Le Cordon Bleu" series knives). Balance point on the 9'' version is exaccctly where the blade ends and the metal half bolster/ferrule or whatever it is begins.

>>11786888
German here, I feel like that all the time whenever I plough through produce with my huge Wüsthof and F. Dick blades. Especially with the Dicks for some reason I cant think of.

>>11787355
He didn't say that they did. You might want to work on your reading comprehension.

for the record, they both use a similar grade of steel. the Wusthof is slightly harder, but the difference is tiny. Paying several times the price for a tiny benefit makes no sense. I agree with the dude, and that's what I'd pick for a work knife too, especially when/if it's borrowed by some fool and abused.

>>11762489
First be wary of Amazon, it's flooded with counterfeits. Find a more legit retailer.
Second, get a japanese sharpening wetstone. They're not that expensive. My KING sharpening stone was $30 and already paid for itself after a month.
Third, buy a really cheap knife and sharpen it. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7dFFEBnY0Bo
As you make shit, realize you will want a better knife and then you will be in a better position to buy said knife as you will know what you need.

The advantages of a ridiculously sharp knife is you can do things like roll out a cucumber while peeling the skin off perfectly, then can slice that into 'pasta' noodles or whatever. Plus you won't cut your hand off when it fails to cut a tomato and bounces into your finger.

>>11762542
lmao noice

>>11762489
Get a Mac knife. They're generally a bit cheaper and hold a great edge. Mine got stolen cause it was so pop bud.

Anyone have any recommendations for a vegetable cleaver that's durable and/or easy to sharpen? Currently looking at the Victorinox Chinese cleaver

Also thinking about getting my first knife roll, what do you anons rock?

>>11787852
Chan chi kee

Victorinox is durable but it's not the greatest metal when it comes to sharpening.

>>11787852
Don't fall for the china knife meme. Get a JCK Deep Impact or Kohetsu Western AS Nakiri

The easiest to sharpen would be a simple carbon steel but those tend to stain reactive vegetables, aogami super has enough chromium to control the reactivity without making it unreasonable to sharpen

If you want to bump up the budget go for some kind of powdered high speed tool steel, that's going to be easier than AS but also kinda expensive

China knives are mediocre at best, usually awful. Don't fall for it

>>11788054
How's the food release on those knives? Definitely eyeing that Kohetsu AS Nakiri right now

is there a certain kind of knife that's good for cutting potatoes?
they always stick to my chefs knifes

>>11788472

For food release you're going to need a knife with a bit more material on it so that the grind can create a small pocket of air between the food and the knife. In general, the thinner a knife is, the less food release it will have.

>>11785417
just don't act like a big fat retard with your knife

>>11788472
zwilling kramer

>>11788994
Boomer: the knife

>>11785774
If you put a very steep edge on it (as I have), and your angle is off while using force, there's a significant risk of a shallow chip on contact with a board. I don't use mine on anything other than soft plastic and end grain boards, nor for cutting anything with a very tough flesh that can cause twisting pressure on the edge. Most root vegetables with a consistent flesh, like carrots and potatoes are fine, but I draw the line at tough varieties of squash, things with pits and hard seeds, or very tough membranes, and I don't let anyone else use it. A convex or more obtuse angle edge as well as a softer contact surface will reduce chipping risk. I haven't chipped it since I started keeping it away from tougher items. If you keep the edge closer to original angle, it is a little more resistant and you probably don't need to worry about off angle hard surface contact, just hard materials when working quickly.

>>11787391
It also depends on when the knife was made. In the late 90's and early 2000's, wusthof was still putting out HRC 54-56 blades. I am not sure about before that, but I know that they started going for 56-58 around 2006 or 2007. Now they claim 58 flat.

hey are Mac knives actually good?
if so, which ones?

>>11769453
Would it pain you to know that you can peel potatoes extremely quickly with a drill, a brush attachment (made by cutting up a nylon brush from the store) and a bucket of water?

>>11785802
Can't imagine that cowry is easy to work with.

>>11786806
I don't think that these mass produced german blades are bad. I just dont think a wushof classic chef knife is worth $150USD. It's like buying SHUN... totally ok knife if it wasn't so expensive.

I would be interested to see how a victorionox holds up against zwilling, wusthof.

>>11786888

Sabatier carbons look really nice. If I was going to get another knife (that I dont need) I would be looking at getting some good 3rd Reich pure aryan steel kinda stuff

Robert herder and Windmuehle knives still seem to do artisan-hand made stuff. I really like the look of this K series that they make. But I need to read more about it before I'd consider buying. I hear the 1922 series is carbon steel but I can't find any online.

>>11789336
Sounds like its not unreasonably chippy. I dont have to chop or slice fast and I don't deal with anything harder than carrots. That said, I reserve my ginga for boneless meats, garlic, onions etc. Im using a cheap bamboo board.

>>11788609
>>11789526

Mac's have those grooves for food release. The knives are well thought of but not particularly great value.

Check this thread. https://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/threads/gyuto-with-least-stiction-best-food-release.17845/

Food sticking to the blade is an interesting issue. Its not big for me since im not a pro chef.

The best way to get around it is to use the tip of your knife when slicing veggies.

Some custom knife makers are using hook grinds; different gradients on the face of the blade.

Rough finishes on the blade also help; e.g. kurouchi.

Foods will stick to blades when theyre quite moist and the blade has a nice flat finish and polish. Food forms a wet seal against the face of the blade due to capillary forces and surface tension.

For the pro chef in this thread, how do you find stiction with your knives and how much does it annoy you.

>>11790730
Herders would be appealing at half the price but they’re delusional if they think I’m paying high end prices for lower entry level goods just because of euroboos

>>11790730
>https://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/threads/gyuto-with-least-stiction-best-food-release.17845/

topkek @ Aero Knife
https://youtu.be/dkp7NzFy8EQ

>>11787391
>He didn't say that they did

He implied it very much so. "Wüsthofs go blunt easily .... Victorinox Fibrox knives take a beating"

What else am I supposed to make of those statements, especially in that direct conjunction?

>>11788472
That's because the bladeface is totally flat with almost all commercial knives, the flat potato surfaces stick to them like suction cups. I had severaly of my knives thinned and a convex curve put on the bladeface, now there is no food stiction.

>>11790082
That may get the skin off, but if the potato has any concave holes, roots, rotten or brown spots you will still have to deal with that shit potato for potato, by hand.

>>11790730
>I hear the 1922 series is carbon steel but I can't find any online
I have one of those in my collection (the 9'' version). A very well made knife with a flawless blade. Super thin behind the edge too, thinner than all Japanese knives I have ever bought (in the same price range)

>>11791035
Anyone familiar with both knives understands that Victorinox is of similar durability to the Wusthof. They use nearly identical steels.

He buys Victorinox because it provides similar performance for less money.

>>11791094
Yeah, they use nearly identical steels. That's exactly the reason why I wrote that I dont believe Wüsthofs go blunt quicker than Victorinoxes. if you're that guy: work on your own reading comprehension, retard.

>>11791107
>I wrote that I dont believe Wüsthofs go blunt quicker than Victorinoxes
Good thing nobody said they did.

>>11790082
seems kinda retarded, but do you have an example of this?
youtube maybe???

What kind of knife would you use to remove the skin off of pork belly?

>>11762507
ahhaha I immediately knew which book this was a paragraph in.
really great read.

>>11793361
well what is it?

>>11794345
How do you not know?

>>11794345
It has already been answered

If I don't want to use stones or electric sharpeners but a honing rod isn't enough in the long run is it a decent choice for a complete amateur to use manual sharpeners like a similar type of pic related?

I don't own knives worth obsessing over with perfect procedure and I cba to take the time to use stones that need to be wet and whatnot. Electric sharpeners seem way too aggressive though but that's just what I've heard.

>>11795703
Respect the knife. Use the stone. Give it to a knife sharpener if you can't be arsed to do it yourself. Your tools show who you are, don't be a terminally degenerate sloth.

>to take the time to use stones that need to be wet
>worth obsessing over with perfect procedure
Then don't. Soak the stone for a couple minutes, sharpen the knife a couple times each side and be done with it. I
have seen people sharpen their through-away excuse for a knife over a literal brick and be done with it in half a minute when they really don't care. Forget the cheap chink shit you posted, use the stone.

>>11795703
a sheet of oiled 800 grit sandpaper stretched over oder glued to a brick or a wooden board is already sufficient for good results.

>>11762489
just bought the bottom one a few months ago and i like it

this thread’s a week old now
thanks everyone