/ck/ - Food & Cooking

Residue and remnants of a long-lost prohibition movement which was strong in very religious areas of the United States (in the past = basically everywhere).

>visiting dry county for work
>stop at applebees cause it's right next to hotel
>hostess asks "will you be going to be bar?"
>"i thought this was a dry county?"
>"oh it is. the bar is technically a private club and there is a $5 annual membership fee. are you interested?"
>"n-no t-thanks"

>why do people have the ability to govern themselves
Fuck off Eurocuck

>>10495152
>the government
The thing you have to remember is that the US is actually comprised of thousands of governments, all of which with their own (usually shifting) political make-ups, policy goals and jurisdictions. Some governments view alcohol as a source of revenue and some governments view alcohol as a public hinderance and their jurisdictional policies reflect that.

>>10495152
The federal government isn't concerned with dry counties, it's a state/local thing

If your state isn't completely blue in that picture then it's a shit state.

>>10495152
Because of protestants

>>10495459
Strangely enough, California and Indiana are completely blue and completely shit.

>>10495152
>dry county
i dont know what this is. please explain

>>10495474
He didnt say all blue states are good states. He said any state that wasnt all blue is shit.

>>10495489
Alcohol consumption is banned.

>>10495489
Limited alcohol sales or its outright illegal . Usually just illegal to sell.

>>10495497
I know. I know. But I never pass up an opportunity.

>>10495489
cant buy alcohol

modern first world nation btw

>>10495504
Democratic first world nation.

These counties have voted to ban the sale. And since there is no constitutional right to liquor...

If you don't like it you can move out of their hyper-religious neighborhood, or get enough people together to outrepresent them, but chances are you don't live there anyways. A lot of those areas just have partial restrictions.

Because big government anti-libertarians control government at basically all levels

>>10495503
Kinda misleading, of course places where there is money will lose money to places with little money. If 10 million southerners would move to a Northern state they would bring like $10

Because women were given the vote, and almost immediately progressives banned alcohol. Its been a slow fight back since, its super fucking hard to take our rights back from the politicians even when laws are super dumb like this

Even in very wet areas there are tons of laws limiting things like alcohol, where cities are only allowed to permit an arbitrarily limited number of establishments to sell alcohol. Some cities are even forced to have BYOB restaurants which si just ridiculous. Or certain times of day where sales are not allowed. Not being able to drink on the sidewalk in public. Some states ban certain types of stores from selling certain types of liquor. Some have absurdly limited sales like Pennsylvania. Some only allow sales from state owned stores

Not to mention the legally mandated 3 tier system where brewers are forced to sell their beer first to a distributor before it can be sold to a retailer, a system where current fucking politicians in Maryland are fighting to keep in tact because the distributors the distributors are old well connected businesses and small breweries have little political clout.These politicians are insisting that small breweries in Maryland must sell their beer first to a distributor and then buy it back themselves for sale at their own tap rooms

>>10495499
>>10495502
>>10495504
>>10495524
How Can Americans Even Do Something So Strange

>>10495636
>not being able to drink on the sidewalk
Pretty sure you can't do that anywhere but New Orleans buddy

In any case it has nothing to do with lasting effects of prohibition or suffrage. Just look at the statistics. Alcohol has always been lethal to Americans.

>>10495999
There's so much love for bits of local autonomy and attempt to gimme that old time religion that a lot of weird old rules can hang on for decades. Dry counties being the most surprising. I'm a mixed and our's is basically no alcohol on god's day.

>>10496030
i live in austin and you can drink in most parts of the city besides downtown, ut campus, east 6th, and south congress.

>>10496043
Let's be clear, you mean you can walk down the street with an open beverage in hand?

>>10495152

Why do Evangelicals support Trump? Why is pro-AIDS Mike Pence going to be our next president before 2020? Shit's fucked up in the South.

I can only speak for the one I know about and it's the dry county in south dakota. it's a native reservation and it's because of their alcoholism problem. funnily enough there's a "town" just across the border in nebraska that exists solely to sell beer to the natives
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whiteclay%2C_Nebraska

>>10496068
yep. you can go walk to the gas station, buy a six pack and crack one or two on the walk back.

>>10495236

>hurr let's just ban everything we don't like

You know you're part of a democracy and are in the minority, right?

>>10495497

/pol/tards were raised on fox news and haven't the slightest grasp of basic logic.

>>10496085
Well shit, that's pretty cool

>>10496085
but then it's mixed because you also can't buy liquor in any place besides a liquor store, you can't buy liquor on sunday and certain holidays, and there's the dumb three tier distribution system in place.

>>10496068
It's normal in a lot of countries, yeah.
In Japan, Europe or NZ people drink in public all the time. In the park, at the beach, on the street, in front of 7/11, having a pre-game drink on the way to the bar etc.
In from Australia, we restrict alcohol sakes in the desert communities because of black people (armed guards, razor wire fences, only open for 1-2h every few days) but the majority of the country you can buy/drink it no probs as long as you aren't being a cunt.
Our laws also say that you can drink in public parks as long as you're 3 or more people and have a lit BBQ.

>>10496102
Also you can't buy beer or liquor after midnight, on Sundays stores can't sell you alcohol until noon

>>10496203
I know that I was talking about America
I guess I'm getting defensive for no reason
Been on the chins too long

>>10495467
They ruin everything!

>>10495571
You don't lose money if people aren't fleeing your state.

>>10496089
how can you fit so much dumb into one sentence

>>10495152
A lot of people do things because of tradition, not because it makes sense

>>10495152
>Exactly why do dry counties even exist in America again?

As far as Michigan, there are no "dry" counties, it’s only labeled “mixed” because;

Monday-Saturday - Retail sales permitted between 7 & 2 a.m.
Sunday Sales - Retail sales of spirits & mixed drinks not permitted without a Sunday Sales Permit.
Retail sales of all alcoholic beverages are not permitted before noon without a Sunday Morning Sales Permit.
Christmas - Retail sales are prohibited between the hours of 11:59pm on December 24th through 12:00pm on December 25th
New Years Eve - On-premise licensees may sell until 4 am on New Years Day.

>>10496920
>pietrowski
propper irishman him

>>10496920

Feels good living in a non-flyover state where you can buy liquor any day of the week during business hours.

>>10496935

Feels good not being an alcoholic who gets the shakes on Sunday morning.

>>10496945

>having your freedoms taken away for nonsense reasons is okay when it doesn't affect you

>>10496948

Shouldn’t you be off washing the feet of illegal Mexicans in your sanctuary city?

>>10496953

Why are you getting so emotional?

>>10496955

Looks like I hit a sensitive spot.

>>10496958

Now you're just parroting me.

>>10495152
How old is this graph? The MA part is wrong.

>>10497045
Also New Jersey is heavily stained by shore towns that are so small that not having a liquor store is a minor inconvienence at best.

>>10495636
>Because women were given the vote, and almost immediately progressives banned alcohol.
True, but you're forgetting why that seemed like a good idea. The country was dealing with a huge corn surplus, and turning it into HFCS wasn't yet a viable option on a large scale. So to get value out of it most was made into alcohol. The result was pretty much the same thing we have today with HFCS - it's in everything because it's so cheap. Corn whiskey was everywhere because it was cheaper than fucking milk! Also attitudes toward drinking were different then. Moderation wasn't so much of a thing - people either drank or they didn't. Those who drank tended to drink a lot. So much so that factory workers had an Elevenses break for drinks at 11AM! That was actually a thing that the coffee break replaced during prohibition. So imagine today's obesity epidemic replaces with drunkenness - about the percentage of people who are obese today were pretty much drunk most of the time back then. Social problems arise from that kind of drinking. It fucks up families. That's why women pushed for prohibition the moment they got the right to vote. It was not because women wanted to take away men's rights, but because super cheap corn whiskey led to a completely excessive drinking culture in much of the country. Mix that with the puritan thing already present among many of the country's non-drinkers and the idea of prohibition had plenty of support at the time. If you look at where today's dry counties remain it's still in those puritan strongholds.

>>10496089
then why are there still dry counties, dumb ass

>>10497045
Masshole here, my town literally just last year allowed the sale of alcohol in grocery stores.

>>10495152
You're posting on the wrong board.

Although your question might be too civil and inoffensive for /pol/...

>>10495152
>>10497852
oops nevermind I thought you just said counties, not dry counties.

Sorry for being a retard.

>>10495503
>NY out 45.B
what the fuck, I live here

>>10496271
Their is this magical thing called "winter" that as people get older, they like less and less. Amazingly enough, rich northern people choose to "summer" in the northern climates and pay lower income taxes in the warm hell holes with much lower tax rates.

>>10496945
Everyone bought sunday permits because it was a onetime fee of next to nothing.

>why do some places ban the sale of literal poison?

>>10497927
This is the most retarded thing I've ever read. I'm sure all those people leaving California were just dying to get away from its harsh coastal winters. Come on man, don't be stupid, it's well accepted that the onerous housing and tax policies have raised cost of living to the point where the most heavily regulated states, California, Illinois, and New York, are all losing residents to states with greater economic opportunity. This is not controversial.

>>10497957
>it's well accepted that the onerous housing and tax policies have raised cost of living to the point where the most heavily regulated states, California, Illinois, and New York, are all losing residents to states with greater economic opportunity.
It has less to do with regulation than changing tastes. In the early 2000's there was a migration from the suburbs and exurbs to cities. Within cities this led to affordable neighborhoods becoming gentrified, as newcomers moved into them. By about 2012 or so things kind of hit a critical mass where the cost of living is these cities became a dealbreaker for potential new arrivals, and started driving away the more cost conscious city-dwellers. This has changed the pattern from a net migration to cities to a net migration to suburbs and exurbs with a loss for cities.

Many younger boomers and gen-x'ers were happy to raise their kids in places like Park Slope, and the younger, more pioneering ones ended up in places like Bushwick and Bed-Stuy. But that's led to millennials being completely priced out of such places. Cities don't even have good options left for them. So they don't come here, and those who are here leave. And they go to places with low taxes and less regulation because they're forced to be more cost conscious. But it isn't taxes and regulation that makes cities expensive. It's that so many people came to cities over the last15-20 years they caused a real estate boom that's ongoing. Hell, the modest Brooklyn apartment I bought less than six years ago has more than doubled in value. I couldn't afford to move here if I were buying now. That's what's happened.

>>10495152
Dumbasses think beer is going to send you to hell

>>10498149
Holy shit, you're one of those retarded NIMBYs aren't you? Yeah, I'm sure it's completely normal for rent to rise that way, I bet if we look at heavily populated and immigrated to cities around the world we see exactly the same thing. Oh wait, no, just in retarded cities with ridiculous zoning laws. Read a fucking book, you dumb nigger

>>10497957
Illinois is just losing poor blacks
We're actually seeing more tech hipsters moving in now.

>>10498193
You can try forcing it into your political views because I understand that's the only way you can see the world. And calling me a dumb nigger is a nice touch, because the M.O. of your kind if to go straight for the personal attack when anyone disagrees with you. You can't help but follow the script, can you?

Regardless, it's more a matter of supply and demand - simple economics - than evil liberals regulating and taxing everything. All the real estate in the desirable neighborhoods is really expensive, and many formerly less desirable neighborhoods are even too expensive for many Millennials. So they look at what's left in the city for them and realize they'd be better off someplace other than the city. If it were a matter of regulation and taxation crushing the economy real estate values would be going down, which they are not. Even the 2008 crash didn't cause real estate to lose value in cities like New York. It pretty much just held prices steady for a couple years, then they soared again. Big cities remain a desirable place to be if you can afford it. The problem at the moment is that their popularity and limited housing stock has made them too expensive for most younger people. Hence the net migration away.

>>10498288
>real estate values would be going down, which they are not.
This is a bit of an aside to your conversation, but in many big cities prime retail real estate is indeed dropping in value like mad.

More and more people are shopping online rather than in person, and as a result there is less physical traffic to retail shops which clearly hurts business. Walk around some of the high end shopping areas in NYC and you'll see place after place marked "for rent".

>>10498298
Same is happening to shopping malls

>>10498298
Retail is a different game entirely. Many who have commercial space would rather warehouse it and hope a bank or chain pharmacy decided to rent it than take a chance on another restaurant or mom and pop business failing there because they can't make a $15k-$40k monthly rent. You see a lot of seemingly successful business go under when their leases come up for renewal and the rent practically doubles on them.

>>10495236
>>10495524
>>10496032
>"autonomy"
>"democracy"
>prohibiting people from doing whatever they want with their body while on an arbitrarily defined area

My retarded MS county is probably the most insane of all. You can only buy spirits and wine at state supplied liquour stores in the county seat. The county is considered dry otherwise and you can be ticketed for possession of beer, wine or spirits anywhere else in the county. Lest someone calls bs, the weekly paper publishes a police arrest blotter for the county and there are usually a few arrests for possesion of alcohol and the age of the offender is 21+. Fucking evangelicals are just as bad as muslims.

>>10497824
This. Also remember that the "Don't drink and drive." rule only began to be taught in the early 20th century, and Mercans began driving in large numbers much earlier than most countries.

>>10495499
SALE is banned. Consumption and possesion are legal.

>>10495152
Tenth amendment pussy

>>10498810
Nobody was talking about drinking and driving in the early 1900s, dipshit.

My town in NJ is lost in a state of trying to be dry while also not driving out visitors who come to eat downtown. I'm personally a fan because having every restaurant be BYOB is better than getting over charged for beers/wine. But they recently just did some ordinance where they can sell stuff as long as it's made by a NJ brewery/winery

>>10495226
If the first drink is free it would be worth it

>>10495216
basically people without religion have to fill their empty lives with engine fuel/brain poison

>>10496948
t. alcoholic

>>10498905
They were talking about drinking and driving horse carriages before cars were invented.

>>10498604
>prohibiting people from doing whatever they want with their body
>suicide should be legalized
>self-mutliation should be legalized

>arbitrarily defined area
okay so I guess borders mean nothing also

>>10499535
They should be legal. Anything that happens among consenting adults should be legal.

>>10498811

Sale isn't even totally banned. Large liquor stores are banned. There are sometimes still bars.

>go backpacking in the southeast
>Gone for days
>Finally get back to my car
>9:30 at night, 45 minute drive into town
>Remember a supermarket that stayed open until 11
>So thirsty, gotta have a beer
>Circle the store 3x before realizing it's a dry county

All those poor ugly bitches, how do they even get fucked when everyone's sober most nights?

>>10496030
>Pretty sure you can't do that anywhere but New Orleans buddy
and like Europe

>>10499590
Meth

>>10498707
>The county is considered dry otherwise and you can be ticketed for possession of beer, wine or spirits anywhere else in the county.

Are you saying you can be ticketed for having booze in your own home, because that sounds pretty unlikely to me.

>>10498149
Holy shit did you just admit he was right and then swiftly try to bury it in a wall of text?
>And they go to places with low taxes and less regulation because they're forced to be more cost conscious
That is exactly what he was arguing. People aren't just leaving LA, NY, and SF, they're leaving those states entirely, because those states have such high taxes and onerous regulations.

>>10495152
https://youtu.be/UfweXrh9UK4

>>10495502
>Limited alcohol sales is illegal
>No such thing as legal restrictions on times to purchase or restrictions on who may purchase.

>>10501761
My point was that such places are so full of rich people that there isn't that much room left for anyone else. So called high taxes and onerous regulations are only an issue if you're not rich. And there seem to be plenty of rich people who want real estate in these cities, so everybody else doesn't seem to matter. How much of a fuck do you think those who were smart enough to by real estate 20 years ago give about the middle class being priced out when they're looking at a 600%-700% increase in their net worth? Or more? Taxes and regulation are just a little piece of it. The biggest hurdle is cost of entry. When there are long lines of folks willing to shell out outrageous amounts of money to live in these cities there will be an exodus of the less than rich. But that's hardly a picture of decline. Taxes and regulation don't matter when everyone with some skin in the game is making lots of money. They just make it harder for outsiders to get in.

>>10502135
Wrong again. The consistent trend is that wealthy people leave these states first, then middle class, then poor. Illinois is at the point where its lowest socio-economic class is fleeing, which is a really, really bad sign.

>>10501628
It's illegal and makes God sad.

>>10502143
But that isn't what's happening in NYC and SF. There the high real estate prices are driving out the middle class.

>>10496089
If they didn't want a dry county they would have voted it away you idiot. Literally the majority is choosing it.

>>10501628
Technically yes, although probably they would only charge you with that in connection with something else or you were creating a disturbance (loud noise, domestic squabble, etc.). However, my friend crossing county line was stopped at a "safety" road check with a 6 pack he had bought in the neighboring wet county and ticketed for possession of alcohol. It's pretty fucked up tbqhfam.

>>10495474
Yeah yeah the CALIFORNIA IS TEH SUX XD meme. We get it you flyover fuck.

>>10495152
America is full of baptists and other evangelicals instead of Catholics, Lutherans, etc.

Lower Protestant Churches tend to say drinking alcohol at all is a sin. Higher churches allow alcohol consumption and even use it in communion.

>>10502300
The high real estate prices which are caused entirely by bad zoning practices. Tokyo and even Paris have much, much denser population concentration, but don't have nearly the same rent or homelessness problems. I assume you get most of your knowledge from left-leaning publications, so know that you'll agree with me in about a year when they all give into the overwhelming zeitgeist on that and start loosening development restrictions.

I live in Montgomery County, Tennessee and we are in no way dry. Beer in gas stations, wine in grocery stores, etc.

Don't know where this map is from, but it's not trustworthy.

>>10502366
It's from 2012

>>10499033
I'm jealous of byob areas. I loathe eating in restaurants because of the high markup on alcohol. Why pay ~6 dollars per drink plus tip if you're American. Just for some douchebag to pour a bit of liquor or draw a beer?

>>10502355
Manhattan has a population density of 67,000 people per square mile. Tokyo has one of the lowest population density of any major city at only 4600 people per square mile. It's not regulation on development pushing up real estate values - it's that there's only so much fucking space there, so the density of people is an order of fucking magnitude higher than in Tokyo.

>>10502396
I worked at a place that finally got its BYOB license while I was there and I think maybe two people actually brought their own wine

that said, I did see some people who brought a fucking 4-pack of strong beer to have with breakfast at like 10am and they looked like they were having the time of their lives. it was a late-middle-aged mixed couple, some white womyn and blacc man in their late 40s or maybe even pushing 55, drinkin' Labatt 8.1 or some shit out of cans, laughing and smiling n shit

though where i live not everywhere is byob, the place has to get a license for it. it's very strange, but whatever. i guess it keeps the economy afloat when you can charge 10$ for a glass of wine and niggas gotta pay it if they wanna have wine and cheese at the same time while out of the house

>>10502308
>>10501628
>>10498707
LAND
OF
THE
FREE

>>10502355
Umm, capitalist developers unrestrained will not result in lower prices, in fact it will result in worse living conditions and higher prices. These are serious issues that need real solutions, not Ayn Rand babble.

>>10502443
>more housing results in higher costs
I can not imagine being this retarded.

>>10502460
He's right, though. It just doesn't happen to fit with your ideology, so you can't see it.

>>10495152
Texas here. Those counties are only yellow because you can't buy booze before noon on Sunday.

>>10502443
yes, and the real solution is to abolish/thoroughly reform zoning

the free market can provide affordable good quality housing for everyone if we let it rather than worry about preserving property values for suburban WASPs

>>10502460
it seems to be true. just look at vancouver

>>10502482
you can't abolish zoning because then retards will just raise more suburbs with even LESS commerce and industry around because americans are NIMBY retards

fixing a lot of american transit and housing issues could be solved by better zoning laws, though. not more of them, just different numbers of permits being given out, mixing in some commerce, more mixed-use zoning, allowing more non-retail commerce in what are normally homes, etc

>>10502515
>you can't abolish zoning because then retards will just raise more suburbs with even LESS commerce and industry around because americans are NIMBY retards

that's the opposite of what would happen

if you don't regulate form and use, people will build denser where land values are high (where people actually want to live) and people will add retail/entertainment in areas that people actually use

it's the way we used to build cities before cars and suburbanisation

>>10502429
This is the most disingenuous comparison I've ever read.
First, you're comparing a single borough to an entire city. NYC's actual population density is only 27,000 per mile.
Second, the numbers you're using include the entire administrative area, including much more sparsely populated islands and the mountains to the west of the city. Frankly, I'm struggling to find numbers on exactly how dense the actual city is, so it could be less than I thought.
That doesn't really matter as much though, since you notably ignored including Paris which has a population density of 55,000 for the whole city and doesn't have the same level of problems.

>>10495474
Fuck off. Which overpriced eastern shithole did you crawl out of to post this?

>>10502522

See guys, it's the invisible hand in action. By removing regulations good company's can move in and an invisible entity that's theorized to exist can fix all the problems that us humans made.

This has -always- been true and there is no evidence in the housing market that a lack of regulations is bad.

>>10502551
now you're just misrepresenting my post

>>10502560

No, I'm not.

It's not my fault you don't know shit about Adam Smith or the free market.

>>10502515
>it seems to be true. just look at vancouver
>city with not enough housing has very high rent prices
I don't have any idea what you meant by this

>>10495571
I can delve into this further with some interactive reports I made from .gov data. Let me know if there are metrics you're curious about.

>>10502551
Are you really so retarded you don't understand how the invisible hand works?

>>10502467
I want you to explain to me the exact mechanism that causes higher supply to result in higher cost.

>>10502522
>people will build denser where land values are high (where people actually want to live) and people will add retail/entertainment in areas that people actually use
the opposite is visible in the united states; the nice places to live are all surrounded by suburbs, and where is densly built becomes devalued because americans are deathly afraid of cities. the only place this doesn't happen are places that are trendy for other reasons like san fran and new york, but who the fuck ACTUALLY lives in Philly and Seattle and Washington? niggers. literal niggers. white flight wasn't a one time thing, it's an ongoing phenomenon, and it ruins cities since it takes all the money out of them and puts it into overpriced suburbs served exclusively by national brand chain stores.

what needs to happen is careful oversight of development so you don't end up with just more suburbia and strip malls and urban centres devoid of intelligent life because everyone wants a job there but no one wants to live there, creating unsustainable situations basically leading up to what happened to Detroit

what has to happen is a two-step thing (with many more sub-steps but whatever)

>make cities not nigger-infested hellholes by introducing better emergency services, either booting out the niggers or reforming them by providing jobs that aren't gang-related, thus lowering crime and inviting in business and residential that isn't niggers

>make suburbs that people already live in more like autonomous towns instead of satellites by re-zoning already high usage routes to have lots of commercial properties, and make them densely packed and pedestrian-safe to encourage foot traffic and thus more frivolous and local spending

>>10502574
>city with not enough housing has very high rent prices
a lot of the houses are empty because it's all owned by chinese holding companies who don't rent them out. over-building leads to speculation leads to high prices. development must be measured and steady

>>10502593
>nimbys are stupid racists
And it all falls into place

>>10502581

Says the person who has literally no understanding about how the invisible hand works.

It's okay, it's a pretty difficult concept to understand I guess.

But no really, regulations = bad. This has -always- been true. The Invisible Hand proves this. It's a -real thing-.

>>10496085
>yep. you can go walk to the gas station, buy a six pack and crack one or two on the walk back.
This is not legal in Austin.

>>10502602
I have not claimed that. It sounds like that's what you actually think people mean when they talk about the invisible hand, which shows severe ignorance on your part.

>>10502593
The percentage of empty homes in Vancouver has not changed since 2002. Your conspiracy theories are not facts.

>>10502441
>niggas gotta pay it if they wanna have wine and cheese at the same time while out of the house
Really I'm just cheap as fuck. I worked at a place that would serve you your own bottles of wine with a fee, hell this one guy would bring in the water from his personal well for us to serve to him when he dined there. I get that restaurants have costs like storage, inventory and staff but why not get rid of all of that and have the customers bring in their own booze? Because in most cases it's more profitable the other way.

>>10502593
>but who the fuck ACTUALLY lives in Philly and Seattle and Washington

hello 30 years ago
cities are in very high demand now and the trend is urbanisation. seattle, portland, DC, denver, etc are huge urban success stories. even second and third-rate cities are urbanising and growing again. you'll be hearing very soon about how trendy philadelphia is to live in on buzzfeed or some similar website

>more suburbia and strip malls and urban centres devoid of intelligent life

this is what we got when we started regulating form and use. Some bureaucrat and some conservative NIMBY scum decided they knew how we were all supposed to live and that any deviation should be punished

you cannot provide enough housing through "measured and steady" development, it will ALWAYS be in shortage. the less political the decision making, the better

>>10502608

>>Says a thing
>>"LALALALA I DIDN'T RLY SAY THAT"

Just some typical faggot who thinks he understands economics I guess. Do less back tracking maybe next time plz.

Or read up a little on Adam Smith a little. I can link the wiki on him if you want some place to start.

>>10502626
Can you point to the specific post where I said that all regulations are bad, that regulations have always been bad, that the invisible hand proves these previous statements, or that the invisible hand fixes all problems that humans create? Any one of these will be satsifactory, thanks.

>>10496030

Nevada too

>>10502595
>>nimbys are stupid racists
they are but they still exist and have money and have to be coddled into spending money at places other than Wal*Mart and living in places that have things like "trees" and "sidewalks"

I won't deny that america definitely does have A Nigger Problem that needs fixing before cities can be fixed, and whether it's just racism or is a real crime and services issue is irrelevant to the fact that americans have a very low view of cities that has to be worked around, either by fixing cities or by turning suburbs into proper independent little towns instead of satellite shitholes

the main problem with suburbs is lack of local businesses and lack of walkability and an unhealthy concentration of commerce into strip malls and office parks, making it difficult for local businesses to start and stick around.

>>10502624
>you cannot provide enough housing through "measured and steady" development
do you think I'm saying only the government can build tenements or something? if anything, it's governments raising towns out of nothing that end up in overpriced ghost towns, like in spain

there's more than enough land and housing in north america, the problem with housing is that suburbs are inordinately expensive for how shit they are and there's only so much space you can squeeze out of a city block before you start to have traffic, lighting, and wind problems

I'm not arguing against city density, I'm just saying that yankees are nimby retards who can't be coaxed into cities very easily. so the solution is to re-zone suburbs such that they become denser and more self-contained, with things like mixed-use walk-ups along main drags, coddling of local business to keep money in the community, and allowing rental and attached properties in normally single-unit-only areas

>>10502639
>do you think I'm saying only the government can build tenements or something?

no but when you say "measured and steady" you're implying some kind of bureaucratic hellhole

"measured and steady" is the planning regime we have today

>so the solution is to re-zone suburbs such that they become denser and more self-contained, with things like mixed-use walk-ups along main drags, coddling of local business to keep money in the community, and allowing rental and attached properties in normally single-unit-only areas

yes:
>>10502482

japan for instance has extensive by-right zoning laws, meaning that the rules for what you can build on your land are very loose, and you don't have to ask permission from the council, nor can your dumb neighbours stop you

and japanese cities and towns are max comfy

>>10502628

I would rather you take the time and effort to reread your own stuff, honestly.

But ya, like you said, any regulations are bad because the market will self-regulate and stabilize because of the actions of the invisible hand. We can both agree on this. It's just how the system naturally works, and by interfering with that we're just getting a more inefficient system.

These are just simple economic facts, I don't see how the hell you can argue against them. Like, honest question here, do you know anything about Adam Smith and the Invisible Hand or are you just talking out your ass?

>>10502655
>no but when you say "measured and steady" you're implying some kind of bureaucratic hellhole
you are the kind of NIMBY retard I'm talking about, you freak out at the slightest hint of organization. you are literally afraid of the city

all I mean by "measured and steady" is to not go nuts erecting whole towns at once and to instead do it by demand

there isn't a lack of housing in the west -- people who are homeless are homeless because they're crazy or poor or got kicked out for being gay and other such extenuating circumstances; not because we've genuinely run out of housing units. what makes housing expensive is not the sheer quantity of them (barring cities on islands and the like, but even then there's opposite shores to build up) but it is the desirability of that location

>"measured and steady" is the planning regime we have today
not really, american development is more driven by neighborhood-level concerns than county or federal, and even then, it's mostly HOAs that make rules, not the actual city, beyond stuff like permits to install below-ground pools (lest you strike a sewer main or fibre optic line) and enacting water restrictions during and shit

most of the shit that prevents you from putting additions on your house and repainting the exterior and doing light industry in the basement and having chickens and a koi pond in the back and putting your spare room on AirBNB is driven by HOAs and their NIMBY bullshit, not municipal by-laws or zoning nor county/state/federal laws

this is why the municipality has to step in and outright re-zone stuff to allow and encourage those sorts of activities that make towns denser and justify prices. because when you leave it to citizens of the LAND OF THE FREE they make all kinds of bullshit rules to limit eachother

you even said it yourself
>you don't have to ask permission from the council, nor can your dumb neighbours stop you
the competent city has to replace the NIMBY rube council and neighbors

>>10502711
>to instead do it by demand
Why does that need to be measured or managed at all? Doing things "by demand" is just letting nature aka a free market take its course.

>>driven by HOAs and their NIMBY bullshit, not municipal by-laws or zoning nor county/state/federal laws
Granted tht HOAs are responsible for some of that bullshit, but a great deal of it is city/municipal laws too.

>>10495152
Keeps out undesirables.

>>10502732
>Doing things "by demand" is just letting nature aka a free market take its course.
who do you think builds the roads that houses go on, you retard

>Why does that need to be measured or managed at all?
>[let] a free market take its course.
because then you end up with bullshit overpriced suburbs and nigger-infested cities that directly contribute to whole sectors of industry failing

seriously who do you think actually builds stuff in cities and towns? do you think the city commissions them? because that's what it sounds like you think and it's entirely fucking wrong and not how it works at all. it also sounds like you think there is a genuine lack of housing and other land for property, which is similarly wrong, like I said, no one is homeless because a city is straight up out of housing like a restaurant runs out of soup

>>10502770
>who do you think builds the roads that houses go on, you retard
Depends. Most of the time it happens to be the local government. Some of the time it's a developer, other times it's private. My family owns a ranch. We paid to put in our own roads because it was outside city limits. Even inside a city it would be possible for a private corporation, or group of people (i.e. residents of a neighborhood) to pay to put in roads. Unfortunatley that's illegal in many cases.

>>it also sounds like you think there is a genuine lack of housing and other land for property, which is similarly wrong,
I never made that claim. I agree with most of your points, just not the two I replied to. You're reading more into my post than I claimed.

>>like I said, no one is homeless because a city is straight up out of housing like a restaurant runs out of soup
Agreed 100%.

>>10502821
so then what exactly is your problem with taking zoning laws and by-laws about what you can do with your house out of the hands of dipshit HOAs and putting it into the hands of competent governments

is it just typical american fear of government because of your abysmal track record, or do you have some actual real argument other than "THE FREE MARKET WILL DO BETTER, LET INDIVIDUALS BUILD THEIR OWN HOUSES" because what you're proposing l i t e r a l l y sounds like brazilian favelas -- all self built and self governed but they tend to be lawless shitholes composed of badly mixed concrete and corrugated metal

>>10497852
Black girl detected

>>10502836
A competent government is a very rare beast, and giving them power is dangerous because they can very easily turn into an idiotic, corrupt, or tryanical government. I've got no gripes with competent governments, just worries that they will remain competent. HOAs often fucking suck, but at least you can move away from them if there's a problem, That's much more involved if its a government problem.

>>Muh american problem
Yes, America has certainly had its problems But so does everywhere else in my experience. My family used to live in Denmark, and my parent's family was in the construction trade (and had been for years). There's plenty of bullshit there too, just different forms of it. The other half of my family (father's side) is from England, and they too were in the construction industry. Once again: different shit, but shit just the same.

>>10495152
this should clear it up

>>10502821
t. Clive Bundy.

>>10502900
>A competent government is a very rare beast,
maybe in your shithole country but everywhere else in the world, this whole "government" thing seems to work

>>10502925
Not really. I consider myself a conservative and I' opposed to all of those things listed. I'm also opposed to abortion restrictions, which you didn't list.

>>10502925
I don't like dumb meme images like this, but honestly this.

>>10502937
I just gave three widely different places in which I've had personally experience and there were problems with all of them. Where is this mythical place where the government always works?

what the fuck does "mixed" mean? i've lived in texas my whole life and i've never seen a dry county or any specific localities that were dry.

>>10502551
Right, and the ogre capitalist Scrooge will be visited by 3 ghosts and reform to be a benevolent white knight for "tiny Tims." God bless us everyone and our thoughts and prayers are with you when you die in the streets, lol!

>>10502943
when did you become a member of ISIS?

>>10502966
>three widely different places in which I've had personally experience and there were problems with all of them.
no you didn't

what fucking places

>>10502966
>Where is this mythical place where the government always works?
excluding the US, here's a good list of places where there are indeed cities that function and have things like roads and houses in them:
https://www.nato.int/cps/en/natolive/nato_countries.htm

>>10502974
texasfag here. mixed means you can't buy any liquor or spirits on sunday. beer and wine you can't buy on sunday until 12 p.m. if you visit a restaurant, you can't have any of the aforementioned before 12 p.m. unless there's food on the table.

>>10502460
>living in beehive closets for thousands of dollars rent per month is affordable, let alone desirable because muh free market
You fucks want to turn the US into a stinking sewage pit, yet then scream about conscious induviduals who refuse to spawn something who will suffer the consequences. Go burn your Ayn Rand 2 yo babble books and wake the fuck up.

>>10502995
LAND OF THE FREE

>>10503025
yep. i'm not sure about other states, but in texas, car dealerships can not be open on sunday if they are open on saturday. i point this out to the dumb bubbas and they defend it.

>live in Utah
>home to some of the weirdest liquor laws in the country
>state entirely blue
Anons I'm confused, I swear we have municipalities that outright ban liquor, must be none state wide.

>>10503035
I definitely remember from SLC Punk that they had to drive across state lines to get beer and was also confused that Utah was blue.

>>10495216
afaik feminists also played a big role in prohibition

>>10502988
Essex county, England.
Vejle City, Denmark
Texas, USA.

>>NATO Countries
Well, the two Non-US countires I've lived in aren't much different than the US, really. Different flavors of bullshit in each one.

>>10497938
I don't see them banning smoking

>>10499535
Well, boarders are bullshit.
They're just made up lines

>>10503042
You were able to buy certain beer in Utah in the 1980s. I believe the beer was all low alcohol stuff as I've heard stories about them driving to Wyoming to bet stronger beer and kegs.
Some other quirks were that bars only sold beer for awhile, but you could buy your own hard liquor and bring it in for them to charge you to pour it out or just sell you the mixer.
Of course with the constant arbitrary changes here, at another period of time only private clubs with membership could serve liquor, you had to buy a membership to such clubs in order to serve hard alcohol.
Currently the laws are still a little off, with the ambiguity regarding the Zion curtain, excessive taxing, 3.2 beer, state monopoly on strong beer/wine/spirits

>>10501628
I just moved out of the midwest and I’m really going to miss Bell’s.

>>10501937
I fell asleep after 5 seconds

>>10502329
Thank God I’m Catholic

>>10495474
As an easterner I never understood the insane butthurt over california. There are some things about it that I don't like (the sprawl in the southern part, the cager life, the fact that they don't regulate guns as much as they should, the fact that they have their heads up their own asses about their wine, the redneck parts in general) but otherwise it's a pretty nice place as long as you stay within 30 miles or so of the ocean

>>10503260
Keep it more subtle and you'll get more yous, anon. That's just too obvious.

>>10503272
Obvious as in what, you think I'm making this up? I know you people think NYC is supposed to hate everyone (perhaps that's you in the chicago thread pretending we hate your pizza even though it's good), but nothing could be further from the truth.

I'm not going to volunteer to move to California any time soon but if I had to embrace cagerism (which is to say, really, if I had to leave NYC), parts of the SF Bay Area would be towards the top of the list.

>>10503307
fascinating.
what is your position on tipping?

>>10503318
Ideally I'd rather it be abolished in favor of a more formal wage system, and some of the places I go to regularly have already done so. But if I'm eating at a place that doesn't do it that way, I tip, just like any other normal well adjusted person.

Since you brought it up, I assume you have some kind of axe to grind on the topic, so by all means, let's hear all about it.

>>10503307
The stuff you listed off are the main reasons why people hate california. It's like you cherry-picked the trigger list.
The only one you missed was taxes.

>>10503337
> why people hate california
Yes, all people have the same ideas about everything. Everyone hates California, which is why 40 million people live there.

>>10502532
>doesn't have the same level of problems.
What problems are you on about? My point is that cities like NYC and SF are not affordable to the middle class. This has nothing to do with regulation. It has to do with the fact no developer is going to waste his time on $2000/month rentals when he could do multi-million dollar condos. There might be a demand for the rentals, but it's going to go unmet, because something else is much more profitable. That's why the middle class has been leaving cities like NYC and SF. It is the free market at work, and they're priced out.

>>10503376
The "affordability" issue is really a commute issue.

Sane countries solve this by building better public transport, but in America that's communism and any attempts at reducing commute times is met with autistic screeching

>>10502576
Mind explaining the situation of my state Nebraska? Or linking your data source?

>>10503407
As far as the US goes the NYC Transit system is actually pretty good.

>>10502988
Question.

Are the UK, France, and Poland's military not a part of NATO? They're greyed out.

>>10503463
Yeah this is the "thank god for Mississippi" of public transport

The MTA is better than the Tulsa rapid transit system, sure

Try visiting a real city outside of North America and you're in for a shock

>>10503485
>Japanese are so autistic about scheduling that 20 seconds makes a difference.
If are 20 seconds late to the train you really should have planned your day better.

>>10503407
Public transport is by and large a massive waste of money of here. I don't care what a country 65% as rich per capita and 10x more dense without a nightmarish nigger problem in all its urban core does. It's not a one size fits all solution to everything

>>10503525
The point is we have extremely low standards because the habitual point of reference is places that don't depend on public transport at all

>>10503547
You don't have the slightest idea what you're talking about

>>10503558
>arguing public transit
>some fat nigger posts job occupation percentage maps of a city's neighborhoods
has the ammonia from the copious rat piss rotted your brain?

>>10503624
Wow you really convinced me of the need for more parking in lower manhattan. Robert Moses watch out

>>10503631
What 20 million people packed like sardines on a peninsula need to do is not what a country in the bottom quartile of population density needs to do is all I was trying to clear up

>>10503485
I've traveled around Japan (only Honshu) by train. And I've taken the TGV in France. We could definitely use some of that here.

>>10503631
Population density and availability of more land as opposed to literally being forced to build on top of one another. US suburbs sprawl very far, and in cities like Houston, every dollar spent on public transportation goes far shorter than a dollar spent in NYC or London.

>>10503449
>the situation of my state Nebraska?
What do you want to know, exactly? I haven't put per capita analyses or any sort of income stuff in just yet, but I can add something.

https://www.census.gov/data/tables/time-series/demo/geographic-mobility/state-to-state-migration.html

"""freedom"""

>>10503449

>>10495503
>TaxFoundation.org

>>10503861
What?

>>10497927
>much lower tax rates.
state income tax is a tiny fraction of overall tax burden. low income "tax havens" often just have things like huge sales or property tax rates.

>>10498905
Right. Driving was still a new thing, and the idea that "Hey, maybe you shouldn't be drunk when you do this." even newer.

Lots & lots of accidents.

>>10502925

>oppose contraception

Name a point in the past half century where Republicans have tried to ban contraception. I always hear this brought up, but they can never actually name an example.

>>10502386
Beer, wine, and liquor have been openly sold in stores here as far back as my memory goes, which is around '97-'98. Even if this map is from 2012 it's still fucking wrong.

>>10503050
Yeah, but not feminism in the modern definition.

>>10503547
>Public transport is by and large a massive waste of money of here.

Indeed, there was a minor hubbub here in metro Detroit when some suburban leaders were accused of being “racist” for (quite rightly) not supporting a bazillion dollar expansion of the bus system.

Of course the fact that I’ve never seen a bus hereabouts in the ‘burbs that had more then 5-6 people on it, is apparently irrelevant…

>>10503186
This

>>10503070
>boarders

>>10495152
Utah completely wet. Gtfo

>>10495152
Because of Y'all Qaeda

>>10504506
General rule of thumb in a US city is when a bus stop becomes within walking distance of where you live it's the first sign everything is going downhill from there and its time to fuck off

The per cost ridership of some of the more inefficient and corrupt cities mass transit can be $20/ride, of which the rider pays a tiny fraction of and taxes foot the rest. I'm not a big fan of paying $18 so DaQuarious can go to the liquor store

>>10504506
But you live in an actual shithole. Who cares what happens there? They give real estate away.

>>10495152
You can just about map out the Bible Belt.

>>10504506
>>10503547
proof that america is a broken country and is literally unfixable.

>>10503479
France literally left NATO entirely in the 80s, I'm not sure about the status of UK or Poland

it's why France could use the FAMAS despite it not using STANAG magazines and steel-cased ammo. Because they weren't part of STANAG anymore. Because STANAG is part of NATO. Which France was not anymore.

>>10504679
Unfortunately those buses have to run empty a lot of the time because a lot of people are dependent on them to get home from work.

You can't say, lol no bus right now we didn't run it because there weren't a lot of people, please wait three hours or walk 20 miles to the nearest hub.

>>10504704
>people don't want to spend $5 billion dollars on a train and hauling around niggers on buses so they can go shit up suburbs that exist in the first place to flee said niggers
>wah america is broken why don't they want to do this?
lol

>>10504718
Well they can not have unneccesry bells and whistles on them. They can not run every 5 mins and instead 15 in busy areas and poorshits can wait, lots of little things like that could get the cost down.

>>10503057>>10502966
>I just gave three widely different places in which I've had personally experience
>Vejle City, Denmark
>1 of 1 search result

looks like you're a fucking liar just like all americans, and further proof that american urban culture is beyond saving because americans are beyond saving. all america needs to become a better place is to be sarin gassed and fucking bombed

>>10504679
>>10504718
>omg bus stops only NIGGERS use the bus (even though all niggers drive Impala SS's and otehr such donks all the kangz mehicanos drive civics and integras and other shitty ricers) if there's a bus i'm moving out because i wont have this literal communism called (((public transit))) on my street, NOT IN MY BACK YARD !!!!

death to america, i mean this unironically, americans are a pox and allowing them to continue to exist is to allow their level of stupidity to infect other countries and make the world a worse place

>>10504750
>poorshits can wait,
this is why america has no industry. "poorshits can wait" can their jobs wait?

>>10504768
yeah I know an $8.50/hr wage stiffs time is so precious they cant be bothered to wait more than 5 minutes for anything

>GRR WHY ARE NIGGERS ALWAYS LATE
>"we only scheduled the bus to arrive at noon once a day and even then it's usually late and only boards 12 people"
>FUCKING N I G G E R S
and then you wonder why blacks don't get jobs and instead just sell crack to white trash

>>10504773
>yeah I know an $8.50/hr wage stiffs time is so precious
it's worth 8.50/hr apparently, if they have a job you'd think it'd be worth them being able to get there on time, or paying them to come in early if the transit is too treacherous

americans need to be gassed and bombed

>>10503155
you can get it pretty much anywhere that isn't a flyover shithole. I saw it pretty extensively on tap and in cans/bottles (and not just two-hearted) both when I lived in Atlanta and in San Diego

>>10504760
>omg bus stops only NIGGERS use the bus
outside of morning and afternoon rushes from normal work hours buses are overwhelmingly 75iq liquored up jiggaboos or morbidly obese feral black "women" going to church's chicken

>>10504788
>you can get it pretty much anywhere that is either Portland or San Francisco
wew

>>10504792
>outside of the rush hour of people going to work, it's mostly people not going to work!!!!
WTF I HATE BUSES NOW

>>10504774
>then you wonder why blacks don't get jobs
no I know why. it's because they're a shiftless, stupid group of people usually with multiple felony records to their name

>>10495152
It seems like the stricter liquor laws apply more to the non-flyovers so let's correct that. You live in a flyover where you can get liquor any time you want because there's fuck-all else to do there.

>>10504785
An 8.50/hr worker is a massive net negative to our society so I don't really feel like plowing money and effort bending over backwards making sure he doesn't have to wait 4 mins for a bus

>>10504750
Not sure what it is in Detroit, but where I lived it was on a pain in the ass ever-changing schedule and sometimes it was 2:15 minutes apart at night, in a capital city. It's fucking freezing during the winter in downtown St Paul. Now this was a few years back, but still. I'd hop into the bar and drink an hour's wage (granted it was relaxing) just to keep my toes from going numb because there was only little wooden bench with a roof and some nights got down to below -20F before windchill.

>>10504819
this
a working nigger is a shiftless nigger who needs to get lynched

>>10504679
My parents live in a 2m+ new construction house in the suburbs and there's a bus stop half a mile from them, I guess I should let them know it's all going to shit soon.

>>10504802
are you even from the fucking US commie?

the more I hear americans describe america and what they want america to be, the more it sounds like it's literally worse than africa and they want it to be brazil or even venezuela tier

>>10495152
Baptists hate fun

>>10504826
tell them to buy at least two AR15s per person because the niggers will be in their house in minutes and the only thing that can stop niggers is the Armalite Rifle Model 15 (preferably painted neon green and pink)

>>10504842
You mean like this?

>>10504845
exactly. that's the only thing that can stop nig-""Zombies"" from entering your home. It can also stop other discolored individuals that (((they))) send to your neighborhood through the Home Owner's (((Association))) :)

>>10504845
w2c? source?

>>10498288
You kinda are a dumb. Tokyo, for example, has generous mixed development and other zoning laws that make it relatively affordable for its development, density, etc even in the heart of the Tokyo metropolitan area.

>>10503485
It's almost as if infrastructure built 50+ fucking years later with no fielded legacy systems to worry about is going to be better or something.

>>10504845
sauce pls

>>10504867
This. TAXATION IS THEFT. giving money to (((transit companies))) is just a way to take money from hard working americans like us and give it to fucking niggers who have the gall to pretend they have real jobs like we do.

>>10504120
You say this as if the Tri-State Area doesn't have high income tax, high sales tax, and high property tax.

Tbqh. a suspended PRT makes more sense than busses or streetcars

>>10504884
TAXATION IS THEFT and red states don't do that. Go back to california you fucking cuck.

I live in Casey County, KY. A dry county.

It's one of the most miserable places to live in the entire United States. Everyone is extremely poor and very stupid. The people who keep the county dry are religious fundamentalists who came from outside the county of the last 20 years and want this place to remain their secret innawoods club.

that map needs updating. there are lots of wet counties in north texas now

>>10504895
>their secret innawoods club.
sounds like the kind of place /k/ would colonize to fantasize about shooting niggers but flock to because they know there are actually no blacks around at all and needn't be as scared as they would be if they had to live somewhere with Too Many Niggers, somewhere like switzerland or maybe moldovia

>>10504834
what?

>>10504911
Children of religious fundamentalists are often the worst shitposters on 4chan. I've met several irl.

>>10504246
>T-they don't want to let your tax dollars pay for it! That mean t-they want it banned!

>>10504916
>be american
>leave your trailer home for second breakfast with your 19 kids
>child downs in grease pit
>go to save them
>get shot
>have to go to hospital
>no public transit
>ambulance response time is 6 days
>die before receiving care
>"a-at least i didnt die a communist by using (((public services)))"

>>10504922
>Children of religious fundamentalists
so, americans, basically

>>10504884
maybe im retarded or he is or both but I gathered the point he was trying to make is a place like texas with no state income tax makes for it with other things like having almost the highest property tax rates in the country despite being sparsely populated per size.

>>10504929
>be american
>be fantastically wealthy relative to everyone else
>none of that other shit happens
I have a big house and land and I'm 28 and it's pretty much due to a great system America put in place to let underwheing undisciplined hacks who put a tiny bit of effort in succeed. It certainly isn't because I've done anything worth a shit. If you fail in America that's on you or your upbringing.

>>10504964
>be american
>be fantastically wealthy relative to everyone else
congratulations, you are the blandest piece of white bread among coal burners and niggers

>>10504696
>>10504704

Except most of the state isn’t a shithole, only the city of Detroit is a shithole, which is why suburbanites don’t want to spend an shit-load of money on a bus system that almost nobody uses, except ghetto dwellers from the shitty city of Detroit.

And that’s ignoring how horribly inefficient and wasteful it is, both financially and environmentally, to haul around 5 or 6 people in a 30,000 lb bus spewing diesel fumes everywhere.

Public transportation only works if the public is willing to use it and nobody wants to spend over an hour on a 20min trip sitting in a filthy bus with a bunch of niggas.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3ztVL3Kb75c

>>10505015
>Except most of the state isn’t a shithole, only the city of Detroit is a shithole, which is why suburbanites don’t want to spend an shit-load of money on a bus system that almost nobody uses, except ghetto dwellers from the shitty city of Detroit.
what if detroit were a city with any kind of industry in it

i know it's a bit of a pipe dream, has never happened, and never will happen, but what if

>>10495226
Yeah it bullshit. went to pigeon forge recently, didnt know about their dumbass dry county laws. everywhere you go can sell liquor to you but youre not allowed to go into a store and buy it yourself. its fucking retarded.

>>10496093
back to lereddit with you