Why Does Lolita Have Rules?

[Anonymous No.9396849]

Inb4 "bait", I'd actually really like to have a discussion about this.

Every other street style evoles and changes noticably, except for Lolita.
While oldschool and "newschool" are very different, the change took the best part of a decade. Outside of fleeting trends, change and innovation is so slow. We're so reluctant to accept new standards or ideas. Remember when polka dots were ita? Remember when tights were ita? Remember how it took until brands literally spoonfed us those two ideas that people started accepting them?

This isn't a "screw the ruelz I'm gonna make a bedsheet dress if I want!" thread, I just think it something that would be interesting to discuss. What keeps the fashion so rigid? What do you love/hate about it?

[Anonymous No.9396852]

Every fashion has rules, even if there are some detail changes or new trends throughout the years. It's not exclusive to Lolita.

[Anonymous No.9396861]

>>9396849
>Every other street style evoles and changes noticably, except for Lolita.
Yeah lolita hasn't evolved at all over the years

[Anonymous No.9396865]

>>9396861
>outside of fleeting trends

[Anonymous No.9396866]

>>9396861
are you illiterate or just retarded? op didn't say lolita hasn't changed, just that it's slow to change and overall resistant to it.

[Anonymous No.9396867]

>>9396849
I think it's more because stuff can much more easily and spectacularly go wrong in this fashion. I mean, you look at punk stuff, and it's so much about doing your own thing, DIY and repping the bands you love-- it's much more free form. And when it comes down to it, it's pretty simple.

You can look at western goth for a comparison too. As a middle schooler or whatever I thought I was "goth" because I wore all black, and heavy shittily applied eyeliner, and I sewed a couple of slipknot patches onto a bag, despite never having heard their music. I think most "elegant" western goths probably look at shitty mall goths and cringe as bad as we do when we see ita.

Also, fuck, Lolita is expensive. I think the rules as they are, are also here to protect newbies from spending lots of money on shit that doesn't work together. There's plenty of experienced Lolitas that ignore "rules" because they know how to work in this fashion.

[Anonymous No.9396873]

>>9396867
>There's plenty of experienced Lolitas that ignore "rules" because they know how to work in this fashion.
This, a million times

[Anonymous No.9396874]

>>9396849
because a lot of the time when people try something new they look like actual shit. when people experiment and they do it very well, we applaud them. it's not like everyone who does something a little different automatically gets shafted. it's when they do it and look bad.

[Anonymous No.9396984]

>>9396867
>. I think most "elegant" western goths probably look at shitty mall goths and cringe as bad as we do when we see ita.

You only need to see the shitstorm that ensues whenever someone mentions nugoth vs trad goth.

[Anonymous No.9396995]

Lolita doesn't have "rules", not the kind you're thinking of. The fashion police doesn't take away your lolita card or throw you in detention just because you didn't wear a blouse.

What it has is a lot of clueless newbies coming in from anime, who think Chobits is lolita, armwarmers are hot shit and cat ears make a shitty dress lolita. They generally end up in the ita thread. There's also a lot of girls who don't pay attention to details and try to claim any shiny retro prom dress is lolita

What lolita also has are a lot of kindly senpais, and somewhere along the way a bunch of them decided to gently take the newbies by the hand and say "look, if you remember these principles and use them as fashion rules of thumb, you'll look less like an idiot and more like you know what you're doing, ok?"

And thus, the rules.

[Anonymous No.9397132]

Can someone show this thread to that cringe fakeboi that got posted to the ita thread? Because all of this is true.
The rules of lolita seem very basic. If you take time to research and understand, Lolita is not that hard to catch onto. It's also not as expensive as these weeaboos want to believe.
It seems so simple to just educate yourself instead of buying a party city wig and the first milanoo shit piece you can find.

[Anonymous No.9397146]

Because if lolita didn't have strict rules it wojld be engulfed into other styles. You'd never find the rifht 'aesthetic' when searching for inspiration.
Look at the difference between lolita and rockabilly for instance. If lolita was a lax style, circle skirts would be fine, and then rockabilly, a style I see as a rough opposite would then partially fall into the lolita category.

[Anonymous No.9397160]

>>9396849
I'd say it's partially because lolita has a pretty particular silhouette to go along with its aesthetic. Other jfash like yumekawa, menhera, fairy kei, and larme are based more around a feeling, and shironuri and gyaru revolve more around makeup.

[Anonymous No.9397179]

>>9396849
All fashions have rules. Lolita has the rules it does to keep the fashion lolita. That doesn't mean you can't bend them and work with them in other ways. How else would we have started wearing veils, flower crowns, over skirts and scepters of changes where not made? Although it's not every ones liking to wear a flower crown it is something that has adapted into the fashion style through people playing around with the rules. They are there just for a guide line to appear of the fashion.

It's really loose rules. Main piece, blouse, socks, shoes, hair decoration, hair done, Petticoat to matain shape.

It's not hem must have ruffled lace, must be made in these colors, hair only styled in certain ways, always have to have a hair bow and nothing else, must have tea parties, must be a cupcake shape petticoat. Print must be cute and innocent.

Without the soft rules then your treading into another fashion all together like otome and or fairy kei.

Tldr Lolita rules are like other fashion rules, fluid and changing as long as the base guidelines are followed.

[Anonymous No.9397180]

It's a double-edged sword. Do you see how long lolita has lasted, how far overseas lolita brands have grown, and how big the fashion has gotten? Compare that to just about any other j-fashion and you'll know why. It has a very strong look and brands that tout quality above all else.

I know it's not always fun to follow the rules but at least be grateful it's preserved the fashion so nicely. On the other hand, people read far too hard into the rules and it's gotten too extreme lately. Nitpicking seriously needs to stop and CoF perfectionism.

[Anonymous No.9397192]

I don't mind having rules, the problem is that people want to view these as absolute law instead of guidelines. It's very easy to miss the mark so it's helpful to have a list of things to check off to help you do it "right", especially when you're first starting out, but I think people should make more of an effort to move out of this by-the-book way of thinking once they're more experienced.
That being said, I feel like the only rules we really need are wear a blouse under your jsks, wear a petticoat, wear socks/tights, and no circle or other non-lolita cut skirts (and even some of these can be broken). Anything else is superfluous.

As for what keeps things so rigid, I think it's the fear of being made fun of online. Everybody's too scared to be posted to an ita thread or whatever so they just end up playing it safe. I don't really blame them, considering the bullshit I see spouted in CoF and ita threads. We should be trying to help newbies, not ridicule them. I think most people forget that they were there once too.

[Anonymous No.9397215]

>>9396995

[Anonymous No.9397245]

>>9396849
honestly, every fashion style has rules. They're there so that you still are recognizable as a part of that style.
Lolita is known for a specific silhouette and color palate. If you break away from this it ceases to be lolita simply because it's not recognizable as lolita - even if you're wearing a brand piece.

It's like trying to wear all pink and say you're goth, for example. You can claim that fashion all you want, but if you don't look the part you just aren't.

[Anonymous No.9397313]

I think there's basically two lolita specific rules. Keep the silhouette and don't show skin in specific areas. Everything else (cohesive colors, textures and themes and "weight distribution") applies to normie fashion too. The thing is, most itas don't even know how to dress normie, so they have to learn all those other "rules" additionally.

Also i'm glad that Lolita doesn't move as fast as other street styles since it could be dead already. (see dolly kei, cpk) I think the reason for that is the price/quality. Lolita clothes usually don't fall apart or get thrown away, you either keep wearing them for years or resell them within the comm.

[Anonymous No.9397320]

Lolita changes like every fashion. Just look at an oldschool piece in black and white with few to no petti and then at the new releases. There is a change.
About the rules. Every fashion needs rules to be recognizeable. Western Lolita tend to be more strict with rules. Maybe because we want to look our best since we all will be juged from the few people who wear it.
I think the rules are perfect for beginners. It a great guidline to start the fashion. When you get more experienced you can bend the rules a bit.
For example I like to wear my real hair for a casual coord. Since I don't have any curls and making them would damage my hair I just make a simple and cute hairstyle.
For me it's also a lolita coord.
Even the girl in the OP picture has small "headpieces". Which can be too small for some people.

[Anonymous No.9397329]

>>9396849
There are not rules, lolita just has a more narrowly focused aesthetic than many other fashions, and it's one of the reasons it really appeals to me

[Anonymous No.9397333]

>>9396861
>posting super sweet pastel vomit vs classic sweet as an example of this

Are you always this belligerent

[Anonymous No.9397595]

>>9397313
100% yes
After I started wearing ouji, I just found I dressed myself better in normie clothes too. Until j-fashion, I'd never really thought about things that a basics to fashion design. Now I apply it everywhere, but it's a new skill to learn for sure. It takes practice and experience thinking about designs and executing them; trial and error.

[Anonymous No.9397598]

>>9397333
Anal retentive nit picker

[Anonymous No.9397601]

>>9396849
When Westerners first became interested in lolita and started sharing coords online, there weren't any rules. Tough magazines would sometimes have articles that basically said "this is how you should wear Lolita", that's no different from a magazine spread that says "this is how you pull off an all-denim look" or something like that.

But then there were people posting coords where they were just wearing a skater dress, so a handbook became necessary. The rules were only meant for new people.

I disagree with you though, I don't think lolita should change so much.

[Anonymous No.9397605]

>>9397146
But if you google lolita now you mostly get costume-tier OTT coords. Consequently, when you wear something very toned-down there will be an army of conlita's that says it's not lolita anymore.

[Anonymous No.9397607]

>>9397605
Conlitas define what the fashion is only if you give their opinion the time of day. They may or may not be a loud minority, they can scream about how basic, non-printed coords are "casual lolita" and it won't matter because their opinion as people who wear the fashion as a costume for convention is baseless.

[Anonymous No.9398144]

>>9396849
The main issue behind the "rules" of Lolita is that they are needed to separate one look from another. There are many, many fashion subcultures and the "rules" the community holds itself to define what falls within that category.

Itas who are upset with the rules suffer from a misunderstanding that these exist to oppress, instead of exist to define what technically counts as Lolita. I find the main difference between an ita and Lolita is that an ita cannot understand this concept; so is fighting against an imaginary enemy that does not exist.

[Anonymous No.9398209]

>>9396849
Rules are there to define the fashion/the general aesthetic of it.
Although western lolitas can take those way too seriously and added some rules compared to japanese lolitas

[Anonymous No.9398471]

>>9396867
Punk isn't as free form as you think. I've seen websites dedicated to ugly punk jackets or pants. If you wear entry level bands people will look down at you. Punk isn't even a proper fashion and has some rules, obviously something like goth or lolita where fashion is the main thing rules are gonna be more important

[Anonymous No.9398487]

The rules are really just what defines lolita as lolita, rather than something else.
If the main part of it is elegance, the silhouette, quality fabric, and modesty, you should be aiming for those.
These are the rules itas frequently break. They get some cheap dress, don't wear a petticoat, wear sneakers, and try to make themselves look SEXI, and then throw a hissy fit when other lolitas tell them what they're doing is wrong.
It's a fashion with a defined aesthetic.
Yes, wear what you want, but don't call it lolita when it doesn't fit the definition.

[Anonymous No.9398735]

>>9396861
Um... honey, both examples are lolita, they're just different substyles. So confused about what you're getting at.

[Anonymous No.9398854]

>>9398735
Um...honey, you're obviously pretty new if you think the point of the pic is that they're different substyles. They're examples of the evolution of lolita over about seven years to go against the idea that lolita doesn't change, the first one being an example of early OTT sweet print mania that started in 2007, the second being the sweet-classic underskirt trend that ran from about 2013 to 2016.

[Anonymous No.9398978]

>>9398487
This. The "rules" are literally just the description of the style.

[Anonymous No.9399003]

>>9396852
but?... that defeats the purpose of fashion and expression.

"Here anon take this thing you use to feel good about yourself and to express yourself. Oh but you can't do what you want and you have to follow these strict rules because... well you just do"

It doesn't make sense.
There are clearly some things which don't work, but there is a lot more that DOES work and people get assblasted for it. For no good reason i might add. oh you chose to not have a handbag, whoops sorry your coord is shit. Didn't wear tights or long socks, sorry fuck off. Oh you did everything right but you didn't don a petticoat. Well you aren't lolita get out of here.

These nebulous and restrictive rules don't really make much of any sense. And i would submit that your initial statement that "every fashion has rules" is also blatantly wrong.

[Anonymous No.9399028]

>>9399003
>"every fashion has rules" is also blatantly wrong.

Please post examples of fashion without rules, because you can't just say, wear a forever21 white top and say your outfit is steampunk.

[Anonymous No.9399047]

>>9399003
no one is saying you cant wear what you want or express yourself just dont call it lolita if it doesnt fit into the basic aesthetic

[Anonymous No.9399058]

>>9399047
Tell that to Mana-sama

[Anonymous No.9399086]

>>9396849
>>9399003
Lolita has just very few rules and they all make fucking sense, because the end goal is "look good and have a balanced outfit".

>oh you chose to not have a handbag
It doesn't make sense to not have one, where would you carry your basic stuff? But noone cares if you don't have one.
But IF you have a handbag at least match it.

>Didn't wear tights or long socks
Lolita is pretty modest, so you will probably already cover a lot of skin on the chest and arms. Covering the chest, shoulders and arms and NOT covering your legs and feet looks really stupid and doesn't make sense. It's like wearing hto pants and winter boots.

>Oh you did everything right but you didn't don a petticoat
The silhouette is a key part of lolita, it's iconic.
Also, most lolita dresses are designed to be worn with a petticoat so you will look stupid with a lumpy dress that doesn't know what do to with all it's fabric.

As you can see, the very few basic rules just make fucking sense.
Like, take away your headwear and your whole balance is put off, after all wearinga very fancy dress with fancy shoes and nothing on your head is really bottom-heavy.

Wear sneakers with a fancy outfit looks stupid too.

Not styling your hair at all with nasty skin looks stupid with a fancy outfit as well.

Wearing hot pink and salmon pink looks stupid as well, so match your colors a little.

It just makes sense, that's all. Noone will come after you, just because you wore a flower-crown with a chocolate print.

[Anonymous No.9399089]

>>9399058
This explains why some of my moitie stuff doesn't fit a petticoat, which is also from moitie

[Anonymous No.9399092]

>>9399058
Oh pff, mana is so overrated. He invented lolita, but not everything he touches suddenly becomes lolita.
Lolita fashion got a life of it's own. He has no influence aside from Gothic Lolita inspo anymore.

[Anonymous No.9399094]

>>9397320
Can you please stop implying that it is somehow a "rule" that you have to wear a wig? Because it is most decidedly not.

[Anonymous No.9399095]

>>9399086

>no tights/long socks
Ankle socks have been in fashion for who knows how long, so that's a bit of a moot point.

And I'm in the party of you don't always need headwear, but only if your hair is styled well. Ringlet curls, elegant updos, or even pin straight with a nice, blunt fringe. This typically only works for lower poof coordinates, though.

[Anonymous No.9399096]

>>9399095
eta, when I say 'headwear' I mean hats, bonnets, maxipad headbows, etc. Ribbons or some kind of little accessory are still needed, regardless.

[Anonymous No.9399151]

>>9399092
Speak for yourself, Mana influences me more than the conlita's of cgl do

[Anonymous No.9399158]

>>9399151
Same, honestly. I can't, nor do I want to, keep up with the different trends that I see getting posted in the cof threads. I've never really chased after new releases, but lately I've been even less inspired by recent releases by major brands. I can look at ten year old pictures of Mana modelling one of his dresses, and still be inspired by the styling.

[Anonymous No.9399160]

>>9399092
Mana didn't invent lolita, your newfag is showing.

[Anonymous No.9399181]

>>9399003
But you're always free to express yourself. Wear whatever you want and call it "Anon's style." But if it goes outside the boundaries of lolita, then it isn't lolita.

You can't put on a baby pink tracksuit and claim that you're wearing a goth outfit and when people point out how it doesn't fit what is known as the goth aesthetic, flip out because "this is my take on goth! stop killing my self expression you meanies!!1!! goth is what I want it to be uwu;;"

But you can still wear pink accents or bright pink make-up and be goth. But if you're missing the defining characteristics, like bold make-up and dark imagery, it isn't really goth anymore. In the case of lolita, that would be the poofy silhouette etc. You can diverge from both the aesthetic and the silhouette a little bit (for example, tea length dresses that aren't very poofy) but if you stray too far it isn't really lolita anymore.

Some rules have people especially divided, like the "always wear a blouse" and "always wear legwear" rule, but that's because it's possible to ignore them IF you know what you're doing. This is a "rule" because 9 times out of 10 you will look more put together if you adhere to those than if you don't and that's the end goal. Of course, experienced lolitas have an eye for what looks good and what doesn't. They know when it's safe to wear a light cardi instead of a blouse, or that a summer chiffon dress might actually be acceptable when worn with fancy sandals and no legwear, but they wouldn't do the same with a heavy long sleeve OP. It's about looking balanced and making sense.

And lastly, this is why people get extra salty when someone tries to be a special snowflake when sharing their non-lolita outfits in a lolita coordinate group. Because we're there to see lolita, not general fashion, not your unique cute fashion. Your outfits might be bad, might be great, nobody gives a shit, because we're interested in what's under the umbrella of lolita and that's it.

[Anonymous No.9399199]

>>9399181
You need to realise the boundaries of lolita were made up for new people. They're more like guidelines than boundaries or rules.

[Anonymous No.9399320]

>>9399003
Fashion has rules, clothes do not.

You can mix and match pieces all you want to express yourself and create outfits that you love but you are just wearing clothes.

When you start combining the clothing in specific ways to capture a specific aesthetic and look so you are recognized as a part of a specific group you are participating in fashion and fashion has rules. Putting on black clothes doesn't make you a wearer of gothic fashion and putting on a frilly dress doesnt make you lolita. You have to hit certain check points and follow certain rules to be acknowledged as a part of those fashion groups.

[Anonymous No.9399435]

>>9399094
?? The anon you're replying to is talking about using her natural hair

[Anonymous No.9399445]

>>9399435
>I think the rules are perfect for beginners. It a great guidline to start the fashion. When you get more experienced you can bend the rules a bit.
>For example I like to wear my real hair for a casual coord. Since I don't have any curls and making them would damage my hair I just make a simple and cute hairstyle.

That anon was clearly implying that using her natural hair was "bending the rules"

[Anonymous No.9399449]

>>9399003
I'm sure someone already said this, but in all forms of art and expression you need to know the rules and foundations first before you can start breaking them.

How are you going to express yourself properly when you have no base from which to work? I'm pretty sure most people are salty about things like lack of petticoat and the other items you mentioned because everything else in the outfit is also not working due to the individual skipping over the understanding of basics.

When you're looking at a community in which the simplest thing such as fit is largely ignored, the rules are seriously the least of your concerns.

[Anonymous No.9399462]

>>9396861
dat banana peel headpiece ......

[Anonymous No.9399485]

>>9399199
I realize that already. I wouldn't be saying you can ignore "rules" if I didn't.

[Anonymous No.9400469]

>>9399092
You filthy swine, don't disrespect Mana-sama.

[Anonymous No.9400551]

>>9399160
He invented gothic lolita, newfag

[Anonymous No.9400557]

>>9397598
Lol, how is pointing out that you used two polarizing styles as an example of change "anal retentive" and nit-picking

[Anonymous No.9400569]

>>9400551
>>9399092
>He invented lolita
Calling me a newfag might be bait but in case you're serious, that anon non didn't specify, stop clutching at straws. And it's debatable whether he was really the first person ever to think of putting a darker spin on lolita (it's a street fashion, after all), or if he just codified and popularised it, suggesting the idea for the G&LB as well as coining the moniker EGL for his line.

[Anonymous No.9400606]

Takemoto Novala poem?

I want to become a lolita, you say.

So become one, I reply.

What can I do to look like a lolita?

I have no words with which to reply to this.

You need a headdress, don't you? And a pannier.

Is this coordinate strange?

Is it not wrong for lolita?

Why do you want to do lolita?

Because it's trendy, because my friends do it…

If that's the case, you have no right to wear lolita.

If you just do what the others do, you will look like a lolita.

But I want you to think about something.

Who do you live for?

You think you want to be yourself, but you are afraid of isolation.

You yell that you want to be free, but you take comfort in following convention.

When you are praised for something you don't even feel comfortable with, are you really satisfied?

Girls who wear Vivienne Westwood but don't even know the Sex Pistols.

Even when wearing a jersey, a princess is a princess.

My lolita rules are mine alone.

So you are the only one who can find your own lolita rules.

My god and your god are different, aren't they?

There are angels who wear elegant dresses and play tamborines,

But there are also angels wearing armor and carrying swords whose job it is to fight.

I can't answer your question.

But there are a lot of hints all around you.

You just haven't noticed yet.

What you feel is right is your answer.

Sew frills onto the hem of your heart!

Put a tiara on top of your soul!

Have pride.

[Anonymous No.9400612]

Whenever I bring up that I feel lolita should be more about self expression rather than conforming to trends I get screamed at by brandwhores.
:(
What's the point of lolita anyways aside from blind consumerism? Really, what is it trying to rebel against? It's pretty stupid once you put it into perspective.
Brandwhores remind me of those people that dress up as "punks" while having a complete disregard for what punk stands for. Shitty example but you get the point, most lolitas are in it for the attention.

[Anonymous No.9400618]

>>9396995
Most shitty newb lolitas aren't weeaboos anymore, most are Tumblr SJWs.

[Anonymous No.9400624]

>>9400612
>Really, what is it trying to rebel against

The japanese idea that women should be wallflowers and not allow themselves any hobbies past a certain age.

[Anonymous No.9400627]

>>9400612
Why are brandwhores not "what lolita really is about"?
First of all, "brandwhores" is merely a concept, there are no real brand whores who would trash somebody for wearing something not brand.
There are merely people who really like brand stuff and simply prefer what japanese brands put out.

Also, even though some people, or many people if you want that, really love to wear lolita brand clothing, at the end of the day they are still wearing an alternative fashion to express their "cute, elegant and frill-loving" identity. Even the biggest brandwhore is still wearing a fashion that rebels against grey and boring norme-fashion, expressing a longing for more cuteness.

I don't get why you think people that love brand clothing are not expressing themselves.

[Anonymous No.9400628]

>>9400624
It would have a lot more meaning if lolita involved some sort of hobby don't ya know

[Anonymous No.9400631]

>>9400628

> lolita is not a hobby

So are you a conlita, or what? With buying and selling, keeping up with releases, attending meets, being involved in the community... how is it NOT a hobby?

[Anonymous No.9400633]

>>9400627
They're certainly expressing themselves, they're just expressing a shitty aspect of their personality. They're expressing their materialism and brand loyalty. How does being a corporate whore and living with a "I want" mentality rebellion?
Notice how they all thirst after the next shinny thing? The same dresses get sought after for the pure fact that they're popular. Girls will spend thousands on one of those stupid status symbols because they want to be popular on tumblr.

[Anonymous No.9400637]

>>9400631
I wouldn't consider buying things a hobby, but whatever helps you justify your compulsion. I go to the grocery store on a regular bases, is that a hobby?

[Anonymous No.9400638]

>>9400628
I don't know about you, but lolita takes more of my time than I'd like.
Online discussion, planning coords, trying out new outfits on my dressform, stalking insta, facebook and tumblr for content, taking pictures, posting them, going to meet-ups, shopping, selling.
There is no conventional activity like crotcheting or drawing, but it's a lot of things you can do as a lolita.

[Anonymous No.9400639]

>>9400633

1/10 made me respond. Please be a troll and not someone actually this dumb.

[Anonymous No.9400643]

>>9400633
And who said lolita was not about materialiusm and only about rebelling? If you want that, you can wear punk. Punk and lolita are not the same. Lolita was always about clothing, making it, buying it, wearing it.
Get over it. Lolita simply changed as a whole.
At the end of the day we're all having fun wearing cute clothes.

[Anonymous No.9400645]

>>9400639
You'll notice how everyone is eager for the same prints? First it's Iron Gate, then it's sugary carnival, ect ect? Okay, they're pretty, but there's lots of other pretty dresses as well. But these girls spend thousand of dollars and fight tooth and nail for the same dress. Why? Clearly it's not for the dress, it's for the status that comes with the dress.

[Anonymous No.9400648]

>>9400643
Thank you for confirming what I just said. Lolita has the stupidest message behind it of any other fashion. Fashion that gets invented by women and this is what they have to say? This is their philosophy on life? Disappointing.

[Anonymous No.9400649]

>>9400606
I love that poem and it offends me that you posted an ita along with it

[Anonymous No.9400652]

>>9400648
Ha, you got me bait-kun.

[Anonymous No.9400653]

>>9400649
I don't think it's ita
Also, you're everything wrong with lolita

[Anonymous No.9400655]

>>9400648
>appealing to sexism in order to get replies
0/10 bait, would not bite

[Anonymous No.9400657]

>>9400645
Or maybe, just maybe, many people like the same thing and because a few persons are willing to pay a lot for it, the market price has gone up.
You can tell me what you want, but I still think the cats on Cat's Tea Party are the most adorable thing and I understand why everyone likes them. So if people have the money, why not let them pay a lot for it? That's what bidding is for.

[Anonymous No.9400666]

>>9400655
99% of men are sexist
and I'm not looking for replies
it's just a disappointing philosophy to see women subscribing to

[Anonymous No.9400683]

>>9400666
>women's philosophy
>a minority of girls having some fun with frilly clothing

[Anonymous No.9400756]

>>9400612
In my experience the girls with the most brand are the ones that understand the rules are more like guidelines than actual rules, whereas new girls and the girls who wear bodyline or taobao a few times a year nitpick every detail and don't understand how versatile this fashion can be. Also the people who don't look further than facebook and cgl.

[Anonymous No.9400765]

Why do girls like lolita so much? Is it the dressing up in cute dresses part or is there something more to it?

[Anonymous No.9400766]

>>9400649
You clearly don't understand the poem, how sad

>>9400765
The aesthetic. This place is full of weebs tough

[Anonymous No.9400773]

>>9400765
It is the dressing up in cute dresses.
Being cute and frilly is fun.

[Anonymous No.9400778]

>>9400765
i just like nice clothes senpai

[Anonymous No.9400782]

>>9400765
wearing pretty clothes with your friends is fun, nothing more to it.

[Anonymous No.9400899]

>>9400765
>Is it the dressing up in cute dresses part
Yes.

[Anonymous No.9400932]

>>9400765
I really enjoy the hunt for the perfect pieces for each coord, seeing an outfit come together, and yep, wearing poofy, frilly dresses.

[Anonymous No.9401066]

>>9396849
>
In Japan, there are nog rules and people don't understand why we are so strict on them. They just express themselfs.

I think that when lolita started to come to the western countries, people made rules because brand was hard to get and getting the fashion right without being ita was even harder. We had no context, everything written was in Japanese. Rules was pretty much the only thing we had to define what is and isn't lolita.

That being said, you can break them. The rules are great for getting you started and making sure it looks decent, but once you get a hang of it, you can easily break them and look great. No one will complain. Just make sure it looks good.

[Anonymous No.9401077]

>>9400612
I also hear being able to be feminine without being sexy as a reason. Everyone has there own reasons. There are Chinese lolita who wear it to express there wealth. They tend to prefer 4K BTSSB dresses because Chinese brands are easy to get and more cheap. There are woman who like to look feminine or princess like without the need of looking sexy. And yes, there are people who wear it because of a fetish. There are thousands of reasons people wear lolita, but people have those reasons because they are them and not a random person in a group wearing what the rest of the world wears. They may all get looked at as weirdos. And that makes lolita about self expression, no matter the reason behind it.

[Anonymous No.9401079]

Remember when heels in lolita were controversial?

[Anonymous No.9401083]

>>9401079
That never happened

[Anonymous No.9401091]

>>9401066
This is not true, the Gothic Lolita Bible always gave guidelines.

[Anonymous No.9401093]

>>9401077
For me, Lolita is exactly what you said: a way to look feminine without being sexy. There's a lot of reasons for that, some are political, some are personal, but they're my reasons that influence only how I dress. Lolita should definitely be about self-expression, that's what fashion has nearly always been for.

[Anonymous No.9401130]

>>9401091
Do you have a source? Where does G&L Bible say "if you don't wear it like this it isn't lolita"? Were they more serious about those guidelines than all the lifestyle stuff they claimed a true lolita does?

[Anonymous No.9401136]

>>9401091
>in japan there are no rules
maybe they don't call them rules but there are fucking standards
i don't moonspeak but pic related, straight out of GL&B iirc

[Anonymous No.9401153]

>>9401136
Obviously, I mean, the word ita is from Japan too so. But they aren't as anal about rules and labels. Punk lolita and wa lolita don't fit in with the rules perfectly and a lot of Westerners just happen to think those are the most ita styles. Then there's a more casual style Japanese people call lolita but Westerners insist it's otome kei.

[Anonymous No.9401156]

>>9401130
They had many "this is how you wear it" or "this is how you get started" things, just look at >>9401136.

[Anonymous No.9401164]

>>9401156
I'm not denying that

[Anonymous No.9401179]

>>9401066
The caveat is "look great" - when you really think about it, we're talking about clothes that are made as one size fits all, and the idea that anyone would look great in something like that without significant work (tailoring, accessorizing, hiding problem spots, etc.) is ludicrous.

Honestly if I didn't know the rules that govern lolita I'd say nearly everyone looks like an eyesore because most shit simply doesn't fit correctly or doesn't suit their skin tone or body type or whatever else.

It's only because I know the rules that I can say, well I understand what she was going for and I see where she tried, it doesn't stop her from looking like picture related but hey, she's happy and I'm not going to be the one to tell her to stop.

[Anonymous No.9401187]

>>9401153
>the most ita styles
only when they're done poorly. desu i've been noticing a resurgence of interest in wa-lolita, with quite a positive reception from the community. pic related is gorgeous, but compare it to one of bodyline's shitty red&black butterfly kimono sets...
here's the thing: in the west, it's much more difficult for the average girl to receive any kind of 'exposure' to lolita outside of flawed representations in their favorite animes. Japanese lolitas don't *have* to do research on the 'rules' online, when they can go to a shop and look at the store mannequins for ideas, or receive suggestions on how to coordinate a purchase from the shop staff. it's a much more organic process of learning the fashion, which is probably why they never had to make the same kind of homebrew guides that western lolitas have had to.
most western lolitas aren't as touchy about the labels as you seem to think. the mentality is more like, 'wear whatever substyle you want, as long as it looks good'.
i also think western lolitas are a lot more guarded than Japanese lolitas, because we tend to be misunderstood more frequently. Overseas, while lolita may be seen as a weird subcultural niche fashion, most people at least know what it is. Here, you're just as likely to be mistaken for an ageplayer/cosplayer/sissy/weeb/thespian/historical reenactor/disney princess, usually to the detriment of your reputation. The rules sort of help to weed out (or guide) people who are confused as to what the fashion is all about.

[Anonymous No.9401192]

>>9401179
>the idea that anyone would look great in a one-size-fits-all dress without significant work is ludicrous
ok, first off, you can buy dresses in different sizes and most of them have shirring so they can fit a *range* of western sizes
also, the solution to this problem is...just lose weight. yeah, dieting and exercise is hard, but the rewards are worth it. lolita's great for motivation like that, because you can look at the measurements for your dream dress and have a solid goal to work towards.

[Anonymous No.9401198]

>>9401187
Maybe it's just my comm where they're obsessed with the rules then. But I notice it a lot here and on facebook too. Like even when I wear head to toe Moitie, if I break 1 rule I'm suddenly not allowed to call it lolita.

[Anonymous No.9401200]

>>9401136
They have guidelines, but I've seen tons of lolita's wear no petti at all on a daily base, because it was more easy. I've seen mis-matches people would cry about in the western world, an no blouse under a JSK, or a T-shirt with a shirt is something I've seen a lot too. Surely there is a certain look that needs to be archived to call it lolita, but the rules like we know them here makes most Asians I talked to either laugh or think "but that's horrible" (I've had that being said to me in a conversation about it). And a lot of Japanese lolita would be considered ita here on cgl if they wouldn't be either Japanese streetsnaps or old-school pictures, but it's still pretty normal to do in Japan. Unless there is an event or you're meeting someone for an interview or something, people dress very casually and without thinking about rules. This is what made Japanese streetsnaps so much fun, because without them we only see planned events and interviews, in which they look there best on purpose.

[Anonymous No.9401205]

>>9401179
>ok, first off, you can buy dresses in different sizes and most of them have shirring so they can fit a *range* of western sizes
>also, the solution to this problem is...just lose weight. yeah, dieting and exercise is hard, but the rewards are worth it. lolita's great for motivation like that, because you can look at the measurements for your dream dress and have a solid goal to work to

Perhaps because pretty much any Japanese or Asian in general has the same body type and size? It's horrible to find fitting clothes if you don't fit the "regular" size.

Of course it's going to take work to make something made for the "normal" Asian body work for someone with a different body time. Ad least bigger brands offer 2 or 3 sizes by now.

[Anonymous No.9401211]

>>9401205
>
Sorry should have replied to >>9401179

[Anonymous No.9401214]

>>9401205
Skirts are an option

[Anonymous No.9401221]

>>9401192
If you buy taobao, yes, no disagreement there. If you're buying brand, only IW offers M and L, AP on random occasion. The rest are one size with shirring thrown in.

The problem with shirring when it comes to fit is that it's not aesthetically great to stretch it past a certain point, and for the most part it looks too tight even when it's a medium stretch. Any normie explanation on clothing fit will tell you that clothing is too small if it looks like there are stretch marks in the fabric when it lies over the body.

(things like lycra and other knits being exceptions, and base lolita dresses aren't made from those materials anyway)

Anyway, I'm derailing from my original point, which was that it's difficult to look great when the odds are already stacked like this. The rules actually help to offset some of this because most of us accept that a dress with shirring will have to look a certain way, so as long as the right silhouette is achieved and the coord is well put together we can accept that said outfit is lolita and not ita.

>>9401205
I think a lot of the railing against itas comes from the fact that they don't put in the work, hence the rules.

[Anonymous No.9401222]

>>9401214
Ofcourse. There are many options. My point was just that it's logic it doesn't fit perfect and that the size range is small, and not like western stores where the same item comes in 6 sizes without the plus sizing (32-34-36-38-40-42, those are all regular non-plus-size sizes in my country), and even more if we add plus-sizing. And even then, many times, it fits horrible.

[Anonymous No.9401231]

>>9401083
Stilleto heels were controversial at one point. There was even a debate post on EGL on it.

[Anonymous No.9401236]

>>9401231
Yes but heals in general where not. The problem was mainly that people tried to wear 16cm stilleto pumps (and some still do). I've seen maybe 3 pictures in my life where it didn't look weird or a bit to much ero, and all three where gothic.

[Anonymous No.9401238]

>>9401205
i mean
i'm told that a lot of japanese people think of lolita as 'fat girl fashion' because brands create dresses that will accommodate plus-size (for japan) women.
yeah, it's hard to shop online when you don't fall into the range of 'japanese' sizing, but it's not what i would call 'horrible', you just have to be very careful about checking your measurements before you purchase.
i'm 5'9" with the ribcage of a viking god and I can still find stuff that'll fit me, and not just handmade or offbrand. i don't accept the idea that your ability to look good in lolita is limited by your size.

[Anonymous No.9401244]

>>9401238
I think you can still look good too. I just mean it's normal that it won't fit like intended.

I'm 1,80m. I need too double check measurements too. I fit brand, even moite (I'm otherwise thin), but length is a serious issue. I actually wear mid-calf underskirts a lot because it's just past the knee for me.

[Anonymous No.9401249]

>>9396867
In Western Goth, there are definitely guidelines, especially to fit into different substyles. It's just not written down in a little FAQ for new goths in the way that lolita rules are. There are still itas, and "suggestions" for styles tend to revolve around specific themes, it's just that we don't have a document written down about what makes an outfit gothic. I think that comes from it being a Jfashion that westerners are adopting, actually, and from it being one of the first ones, and in the early aughts, when lolita was first coming to the USA, people would put on any JFash inspired thing and think it was lolita. Like people would wear a petti and kera hair barrettes and cat ears and shit.

[Anonymous No.9401255]

>>9396984
Which is so weird to me, as an oldfag who became goth between the late 80s early 90s and the last 5 or 6 years... Victorian Goth, for example, is NOTHING like Trad goth except that they wear black and tend to listen to some of the same music, and some nugoths literally dress like Siouxsie with different makeup.

The explosion of late nineties and early aughts gothic styles seems completely overlooked by both trad and nu goths.

[Anonymous No.9401256]

>>9401221
I'm pretty sure BTSSB has offered different sizes before in the past as well. The example that comes most readily to mind is their pocket embroidery JSK.
the fact remains: if you fall in love with a brand dress, and it looks bad on you because you're overweight, either sell or lose weight. don't stuff yourself into a dress that's two sizes too small for you--this is just common sense, even in normie fashion. and just like normie fashion, even plus-sized buyers have a range of options to pursue instead of trying to force themselves into straight sizes.
saying that you can only look good in lolita if you fit into brand (esp. when, as you've pointed out, you have the option to buy taobao or custom-sized offbrand--heck, even bodyline coordinates still have the potential to look good) simply isn't true.

[Anonymous No.9401263]

>>9401249
In western goth you used to wear whatever you liked. The guidelines/rules in it are really from the last generation of goths, a lot of which only wear it on places like Instagram and never seen a goth clothing store on the inside, but buy stuff online (not necessary bad), or have been in any goth related event in there lives. Most people who got into goth, metal or whatever in the "80 or "90 hate that this happened.

Most goths also have all these styles in there closet and wear whatever looks nice to them together. Sure some like a certain style, and those styles got names. But it started as wearing whatever you feel like, and if you want to change something you can. Not you have to wear it exactly this way or you're doing it all wrong.

But then, goth wasn't about clothes, but came from music, which might make a difference.

[Anonymous No.9401271]

>>9401256
>saying that you can only look good in lolita if you fit into brand simply isn't true.

Can you point out where I'm saying that? I'd appreciate knowing where I'm fucking up my wording because that's not the core point I'm trying to make.

[Anonymous No.9401274]

>>9401198
what rule are you breaking?
if i leave out a petticoat because of the inconvenience (i knock things over with mine a lot), I always just refer to it as 'otome' because the silhouette of lolita is so specific.
but I can't think of any other one rule that you'd be thrashed for breaking aside from petticoats. even blouseless/sleeveless lolita can be acceptable in the right coordinate.

[Anonymous No.9401275]

>>9401263
>never seen a goth clothing store on the inside
I have honestly never seen a goth store anywhere, only hot topic shit

[Anonymous No.9401283]

>>9401271

>>9401221
>it's difficult to look great when the odds are already stacked like this
maybe i misunderstood this, I'm sorry. My initial reaction was--well, if there are other options friendlier to your size, then you shouldn't feel like the odds are stacked against you, unless you have your heart set on only purchasing brand? if that makes sense.

[Anonymous No.9401285]

>>9401274
If we go with that example, a full moitie coord minus petticoat, why do we have to call it otome or something else?

[Anonymous No.9401290]

>>9401285
it's all about the poof, man.

[Anonymous No.9401292]

>>9400606
I fucking miss Novala so fucking much.

[Anonymous No.9401294]

>>9401275
We have them here. Many went out of business because of online shopping, but I have one in my city while it is mainly farmlands that's still open. Mainly lives from selling prom dresses in prom season, but always kept his passion for gothic and sells it all year round, but only gothic just doesn't pay bills sadly. When I get to the big cities, there are multiple gothic stores that do just gothic. We have no hot topic in my country, we only have two online stores that are big. The rest is all local stores, rarely bigger then one location. We also have some hot topic like stores, but we do defiantly have some gothic stores too.

But still, if you wear gothic outside the house, or go to other gothic related events, that's already more than I've seen some of this new generation goths do. Some go out, but don't like anything goth related, or even realise it's made out of music. Sadly, these people also tend to be the most judgmental about gothic substyles. There where no gothic sub styles before, just names to describe a piece of clothing.

[Anonymous No.9401304]

>>9401285
also i think it comes down to brand recognition.
there's quite a bit of crossover between lolita and otome brands, like ETC or Jane Marple, but the styling is completely different, low-key but quirky at the same time.
I think that you're more likely to receive the suggestion to call it 'otome' if you're doing classic or sweet, but full moitie can probably just be classified as 'goth'. Lolitas have sort of always been identified by the silhouette, even back in the 90's when Fruits was first doing street snaps, the emphasis was almost always on the shape of the skirts. that's only grown more pronounced in recent years because of how popular prints have become over the last decade. without a petticoat underneath to fluff it out a bit, you can't properly appreciate all of the details of an intricate print.

>>9401292
me too, man. i went back and read some of his archived essays from soleil la nuit the other day and literally cried. i miss them crazy lifestylers.

[Anonymous No.9401305]

>>9401285
If it looks good, I would think you can call it lolita. Or are we going to call pic related not-lolita now, because generally, you don't wear a petti under old-school BTSSB babydoll dresses. And those who do generally wear deflated ones. Seen a few good new-school coords without petti too, but I'm to lazy to search for them. Momoko is a good enough example I hope.

Like I said, many Japanese lolita's don't wear a petti in lolita every day, even when wearing sweet Angelic Pretty. I've seen pink AP skirts without petti, with black loose t-shirts with a pink print, black OTKs with pink dots and black platform shoes with bows walking on Japanese streets and it walls called lolita. Western people are defiantly more precise about the looks.

[Anonymous No.9401308]

>>9401283
Nah don't apologize, I can see how I worded that poorly. Thank you for the clarification! I meant that the odds are stacked because of how shirring/one size fits all works - if you choose to go that route. And even if you fit into those kinds of pieces, there's the possibility that it may be too big in certain spots and you have bunching, loose straps, etc. too.

I completely agree that the odds are not stacked if you're buying to size and not just relying on shirring to cover the gap.

Overall, I was trying to point out that the rules/guidelines/whatever exist to enhance one's chances of looking great because of the aforementioned disadvantage of certain pieces, rather than being put in place to stifle expression.

[Anonymous No.9401315]

>>9401308
oh, yeah! I'm totally with you, now that's been clarified. it's always funny when you find out that you're on the same page as the person you thought you were having a disagreement with haha

[Anonymous No.9401338]

>>9401263
>But it started as wearing whatever you feel like, and if you want to change something you can.
So I can wear neon chav clothing and it is goth, huh?

[Anonymous No.9401345]

>>9401292
>>9401304
He's already out of prison but I haven't heard anything about him since he visited baby's store to meet fans or something

[Anonymous No.9401354]

>>9401338
Some people wore jeans and a black shirt, or a neon bright top with some black jeans, and some people, just looked like normal people who made a mess out of there lives and lived on the streets. People didn't give much fucks about how you looked, you where different, and you fitted in the groups mentality and music taste. Surely there was a dark side that has always been there, but in general, goth was much more about a lifestyle than clothes.

And of course there where already people who dresses Victorian goth, or anything else, but there was no "you need to do this or you're wrong" mentality. Some people looked OTT goth, others looked barely different from normal people, and they all got along because they didn't spend time on hating each others clothes.

[Anonymous No.9401365]

>>9401338
Also, note that gothic as subculture is not clothing based. Many metal-heads wear normal clothes. Not walking around in leather jackets doesn't make them less of a metal-head. Same with goth, and punk, and all this western sub styles originated from music.

So yes, you CAN wear neon chav clothing and be goth, if you share that mentality (which often includes adding some dark side to it), and know that damn music. Gothic is not a fashion in itself, it just has a fashion associated with it. Goth had a you be you thing going on, and if you truly love neon chav clothes, you should wear them and not change yourself to something black. Sadly many people don't do there homework on subcultures and only act on what they see, appearance.

[Anonymous No.9401366]

>>9401338
I think they just wanted to say that you can wear whatever and still be a goth. If a goth wears neon chav clothing they will still be a goth who just wears non-gothic clothes. "Lolitas at heart" who don't wear the fashion are frowned upon, because in lolita, the clothes are the highest priority but in the goth subculture, liking the music and general "vibe/feeling" comes first.

[Anonymous No.9401369]

>>9401366
Indeed. Thank you, I'm not the best at explaining.

[Anonymous No.9401412]

>>9401345
i wish that there was some way for his western fans to contact him. i guess normally you would get in touch with his publisher, but I'm sure that they dropped him like hot potato after the scandal. i'm worried that he's going to go the way of oscar wilde after serving his term.

[Anonymous No.9401427]

>>9401412
He might have sns

[Anonymous No.9401445]

>>9401200
But again this is falling into the trap of assuming that because you see lolitas on the street in Japan doing this, other Japanese lolitas think it looks good or acceptable. Japanese lolitas could just as easily point to a bunch of western itas and go, "See! In the West they don't care about wearing no petti, shiny scratchy wigs, neon fishnets, a cat tail and a poorly-made replica that doesn't fit!"

[Anonymous No.9401456]

>>9401214
Pretty much all brands make their skirts to fit much smaller sizes than their other pieces, for whatever reason.

[Anonymous No.9401493]

>>9401445
True, but the amount of people doing it is far bigger then here, and less people are complaining, but are instead positive about it (tho it may be because of the Japanese respect rules). On normal streets, you see it a lot more. When the majority does it like that, I do get the feeling it's accepted more.

[Anonymous No.9401502]

>>9401456
That's not true, a lot of brands have fully shirred skirts. I have them from Meta, Excentrique, JM, ETC, And Romeo, Heart E and h.Naoto and I didn't specifically look for it

[Anonymous No.9401510]

>>9401456
Only seem true for oldschool releases that are not fully shirred. But nowadays, most skirts are more forgiving than dresses. And you still don't have to worry about breast with skirts, which is more often a problem than waist for most people.

[Anonymous No.9403025]

>>9397320
It's funny; I have curly hair (I'm black) and sometimes feel pretty pressured to wear a wig. I think this attitude sucks no matter your hair texture. Sometime she realistic or subtle wigs are nice and colourful ones work well with themed coords, but I still feel they make the fashion lean to the costumey side, along with how drastically the clothes themselves have changed. I feel a bit alienated by the past 5-7 years of lolita in particular, having got into it in 2002.

About 60-80% of lolita reads as 'cute/quirky/elegant dress that may or may not have some sort of historical and/or western goth/avante-garde influence' but not as Lolita to me.

What makes it even worse is that with new school itas (especially OTT ones) you can't even see what they were going for half the time. At least with black and white lacemonsters they were undeniably in the spirit of lolita.

[Anonymous No.9403044]

>>9401456
>>9401510
I will correct that for you
>AP and BTSSB make their skirts much smaller and that's the only brands we should care about

[Anonymous No.9407603]

>>9399003
If lolita didn't have "rules" it wouldn't be a thing. You need to be able to define something for it to exist. Things that fit within the bounds of what is considered lolita are lolita and things that aren't, well aren't. The lolita police aren't gonna come arrest you if you "break a rule", you're just doing something not "lolita-like" in your lolita. People do get overly anal about lolita rules sometimes, but it's not like anyone is stopping you from dressing however you want.

[Anonymous No.9407689]

>>9407603
Why larme and otome doesn't have rules?

[Anonymous No.9407708]

>>9407689
Larme isn't a specific pinpointed fashion style. It does have its own unique "feeling" to it but it's not defined by specific looks and silhouettes like lolita is.
"Otome" isn't a legitimate kind of Jfash, it's a term made up in the west. In the west it usually refers to the looks put out by brands like ETC and Leur Getter which in Japan are simply called "girly style" that, again, aren't a specific type of look like lolita is.
If anything, lolita is more comparable to decora or mori in how defined and distinguished it is from other styles.

[Anonymous No.9407785]

>>9401205
I'm quite significantly overweight (by about 30lbs) and find most new releases in a size S to be too big on me, so I don't know why people demand that 'tiny Asian people clothes' get bigger, harassing brands like Haenuli unless they are very tall or just have a large bust.

[Anonymous No.9407788]

>>9401255
Victorian Goth and Victorian inspired burlesque costumes are what leads me to lolita. All I knew was I loved that lacey ruffly antique aesthetic and was already a hardcore emo kid who read a lot of manga but didn't know what it wasn't or where it was from. Then everything suddenly came to together...

[Anonymous No.9407791]

>>9407785
>just have a large bust.

This is the issue in most cases. Also, it's easier to remove fabric to adjust the fit of something than to add.

[Anonymous No.9407814]

>>9407785
I'm a hulky ass westerner who is 40lbs overweight and depending on the cut, anything beyond Haenuli's S/M or M/L and I'm swimming in it. I have a S/M full back shirred jsk from her and it's gigantic on me. I'm at the point where I'm having issues with my brand right now where out of 30 dresses I can wear maybe 5. About 15lbs lighter and I could pretty much wear 90% of my wardrobe. That's still extremely generous for a one-size-fits-all deal. (I say wear, but it might not look right as is, but I can work with that) At my smallest and not being overweight and being just under 100cm, everything fit really well with plenty of room to spare.

I don't think this stuff needs to get bigger either, but I'm glad that for people much larger, there are some options for them.

[Anonymous No.9407821]

>>9397601
I remember the photos on the last page of Shojo Beat with the wannabe lolitas. Most of them looked like street walkers, trying to make the look sexy and with no sense of color.

[Anonymous No.9407841]

>>9401354
That is not true. At all. 80s and 90s goths were always snobbish about what you wore.
They werent as open and accepting as you think, and other ""goth"" people have poked fun at it.
There's a ministory in Johnny the Homicidal Maniac about that, and it ends with "ohmagawd! Someone is wearing blue jeans!"
Quit talking out of your ass.

[Anonymous No.9408330]

>>9407821
Oh my god I still have the pull out posters and ripped out pages of that magazine. I kept a feature on BABY from 2004 and it took 12 damn years to get my first BABY wish list item.

[Anonymous No.9408341]

>>9408330
Will you post them, anon? It's always interesting to see old scans!

[Anonymous No.9408357]

>>9401345
He published another book a few years ago with the cover art by Imai Kira. He's made some appearances/signings since then and also does music. Has Twitter and FB.
His novel Emily is available in ebook format on Amazon

[Anonymous No.9409094]

>>9400637
this.

[Anonymous No.9409104]

>>9397333
it's not even classic sweet, just classic

[Anonymous No.9409115]

>>9400637
Since when has collecting things not been considered a hobby?

[Anonymous No.9414738]

>>9401077
>I also hear being able to be feminine without being sexy as a reason

I think this is the most compelling reason in the West, and it gets more and more compelling with every year, as the trends shift toward shameless sex appeal and away from anything else.

[Anonymous No.9414817]

>>9408330
Post it to the oldschool thread! They'd be appreciated there.

[Anonymous No.9414818]

>>9414738
>as the trends shift toward shameless sex appeal and away from anything else
Ya think? Because IMO trends now are significantly less "sexy" than they were in the 00s, the era of cleavage and the micro-mini. Even Vogue published the clickbaity article about how cleavage is "dead" to comment on how much necklines have risen lately.

[Anonymous No.9414850]

>>9414818
Not the same anon and I haven't seen the Vogue article, but other sexy/revealing normie trends like the off the shoulder look and crop tops are still going strong.

[Anonymous No.9415603]

>>9399003
freedom-Lolita

[Anonymous No.9415607]

>>9399058
This is not Lolita, is aristocrat, you noob

[Anonymous No.9415617]

>>9401263
>Gatekeeping

it all boils down to it

[Anonymous No.9415620]

>>9407785
I'd say I have super average measurements and fit in a large part of what most brands put out, but Moitie still kills me. I'm a gothic lolita, but with my modest 88 cm bust I'm very scared to buy any secondhand Moitie because there's a large chance it won't fit. Precisely because my measurements are so average/"normal" I get really salty that one of my favourite brand's regular sizing doesn't fit me haha.

[Anonymous No.9415626]

>>9415620
Why wouldn't it fit with an 88cm bust?

[Anonymous No.9415628]

>>9415626
All Moitie items list an 82 cm bust, and while this isn't always true there's often no way to find out what the actual measurement is. Especially when you're buying from y!ja or some other Japanese platform.

[Anonymous No.9415647]

>>9415628
Can confirm, some of my Moitie pieces have 88-90cm busts, while one is around 78cm and another 82cm. I'm small chested but it's really weird how much the measurements differ when they list them as 82cm.

[Anonymous No.9415762]

>>9399092

[Anonymous No.9415773]

>>9415628
You can generally tell from the cut.

[Anonymous No.9415778]

>>9415628
Like >>9415773 said, but also the description sometimes mentions full shirring.